Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Ah, the different things are different argument.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Let there be snark.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

I wonder if trump will be tried as an adult.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Take your GOP plan out of the witness protection program.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

The revolution will be supervised.

Spilling the end game before they can coat it in frankl luntz-approved dogwhistles.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Second rate reporter says what?

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

A consequence of cucumbers

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Friday Night Open Thread

Friday Night Open Thread

by | 304 Comments

This post is in: 

Everyone here is under the weather with a cold, so we’ve been keeping a low profile. However, I do come bearing gifts:

zoe

That is frequent commenter LamH’s niece, and I can not wait to make this into different memes. That face is priceless.

Also, final preview of the new site on Monday, should be ported midweek next week at some point.

Reader Interactions

304Comments

  2. 2.

    Steeplejack

    Re new site: I tremble with mingled dread and anticipation.

    On a related note, has anyone had problems with the Stylish browser add-on lately? After I did a Firefox upgrade a week or two ago (under Windows 10) it stopped working—or at least the “Better Balloon Juice” script did, which is the only one I use. I tried various things, then deleted Stylish and reinstalled it, but it looks like the installation doesn’t “take.” Finally I gave up and decided to wait and see what the new Balloon Juice site looks like.

  6. 6.

    Thoughtful Today

    Bernie’s been regularly 20 points behind Hillary nationally, sometimes worse, sometimes better.

    This is the first poll I’ve seen including a time frame after the debate, it brings Bernie within 14 points of Hillary amongst registered Democratic voters:

    NBC/SurveyMonkey
    October 13-15
    1,857 RV

    Clinton 45
    Sanders 31

    Biden 10
    Undecided 9

    Usual caveats apply.

    [My caption for the photo: ‘Trump’s ahead?! Are these people crazy??’

  7. 7.

    Betty Cracker

    What a cutie! From her alarmed-horrified expression, it looks like the poor kid clicked on a photo of Donald Trump.

  9. 9.

    ruemara

    I bet she wants to be put back in. Get off the internet, girl. There’s nothing but trouble here.

    On the other hand, the next request for something to do with this project, I’m just going to send her picture.

  11. 11.

    Smiling Mortician

    She’s learning about how deep the lies go. Hang in there, sweetie. It keeps going for a while.

  13. 13.

    dopey-o

    @Smiling Mortician:

    She’s learning about how deep the lies go. Hang in there, sweetie. It keeps going for a while.

    It’s Turtles All The Way Down. After which it’s More Lies.
    Then more turtles. And then more lies.

  16. 16.

    lamh36

    Aww…look at my baby!

    She’s got that star quality…lol.

    As her sight develops, she has this fascination with bright lights. So when she sees one, she just stares for a minute before she gets distracted.

    She and my lil sis have been staying with me for the past 2 weeks, but now that my sissy found a job, she’s heading back to Baton Rouge.

    So my lil Niecy…is leaving me all alone until my sis comes to visit in NOLA.

    BTW, My sister is gonna kill me…but Zoe is a star.

  17. 17.

    Anne Laurie

    Yup, Cole, you really do need to re-use that as a “new site goes live” header — Zoe’s expression of mixed horror and amazement is perfect!

  21. 21.

    Gian

    never put the video of the birthing process on the computer the kid uses for PBS Kids.
    or
    That’s not Word Girl!

  27. 27.

    Thoughtful Today

    @Mike J:

    Sure.

    And Hillary was more than 60 points ahead of Sanders at one point, which means even at 20 points ahead of Sanders he’s made a 40 point gain.

    Polls are all fun and games until actual votes are tallied. :)

  29. 29.

    Aleta

    Every time I see a picture of Zoe … she’s special, she’s 4-D, she comes right off the page. Seems like she’s always been around. Thanks for showing these pictures of her, lamh36. I feel better when I see her living large.

  31. 31.

    Thoughtful Today

    @Mike J:

    And yesterday I read Harry Reid telling me that New Hampshire and Iowa don’t matter because … moving goal posts …

    I was told Bernie wouldn’t get any support … well, that was wrong. I was told Bernie couldn’t get the money … well, that was wrong. I was told Bernie lost the debate by pundits despite overwhelming initial reactions from viewers, you know, regular voters, saying Bernie won.

    I understand the pundits points, pundits looked at style, assumed voters are too stupid to look at substance, and have made a remarkably concentrated effort to dismiss actual voters.

    Style is important, I don’t diminish that, look at Trump.

    I still make judgements on substance, by that measure, Sanders won, hands down.

  33. 33.

    Mnemosyne

    For anyone else currently obsessing over “Hamilton,” I discovered today that Atlantic Records has wisely made the lyrics for all of the songs available for free on their website. You can see individual songs or download PDFs of the whole set (2 booklets).

    One of my favorites from the second song of the show:

    [HAMILTON]
    Sir…
    I heard your name at Princeton. I was seeking an accelerated course of study when I got sort of out of sorts with a buddy of yours. I may have punched him. It’s a blur, sir. He handles the financials?

    [BURR]
    You punched the bursar

    [HAMILTON]
    Yes!

    (Apparently the history is slightly off — Hamilton punched a different Princeton official, not the bursar, but “bursar” fit the rhyme. But it’s true that he got into a fistfight with a Princeton official.)

  34. 34.

    Amir Khalid

    @Thoughtful Today:
    Do you see Bernie gaining percentage points on Hillary at that rate all the way to the first few primaries? Because, despite the cultural tendency of political junkies to make a big deal of every little twitch in the polling results, their comparative numbers have been rather stable of late. My own take on the debate is that Bernie’s supporters still support Bernie and Hillary’s supporters still support her. Bernie needs to begin winning Hillary’s support away from her, and he didn’t manage that in the first debate.

  37. 37.

    MomSense

    @Mnemosyne:

    That is awesome. I’m sending the link to my son right now.

    Thepeoplesview.net has a must read piece on choice by Trevor LaFauci.

    I won’t say more about it just that it is worth a read.

  38. 38.

    Thoughtful Today

    @efgoldman:

    You might be right, but if you’re wrong, will you vote for Bernie?

    @Amir Khalid:

    “Bernie needs to begin winning Hillary’s support away from her” or expand the Democratic Party’s base, something that seems anathema to Establishment Dems if it threatens their jobs.

    Bernie is exciting young Americans, either they show up to vote in the Primary for Bernie or … they don’t.

  39. 39.

    Villago Delenda Est

    OK, who put up the picture of Hucksterbee to get the reaction from the baby like that?

  43. 43.

    scav

    I’m enjoying the fact that polls were deeply indicative at comment 6 (came equipped with caveats even!), but meaningless fun and games by 18.

  44. 44.

    amk

    @Thoughtful Today:

    No doubt sanders is a hit with the yung’uns. But will they stick with him through the primary setbacks (which is coming when he starts going ‘south’) and then the GE?

  49. 49.

    Suzanne

    That kid is just stinkin’ adorable. What a dolly. So much personality already!

    Kinda makes me want another.
    Awwwwww damn.

  50. 50.

    trollhattan

    Representative government hard at work, for you! Sounds totally reasonable, who the heck deserves to know how safe the railroads are? Didn’t bother the Irish or Chinese, why should you be concerned?

    A House of Representatives bill unveiled Friday could make it more difficult for the public to know how prepared railroads are for responding to oil spills from trains, their worst-case scenarios and how much oil is being transported by rail through communities.

    The language appears in the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee’s six-year transportation legislation, which primarily addresses federal programs that support state road, bridge and transit projects. But the legislation also includes a section on oil trains.

    The U.S. Department of Transportation is working on a rule to require railroads shipping oil to develop comprehensive spill response plans along the lines of those required for pipelines and waterborne vessels. It would also require them to assess their worst-case scenarios for oil spills, including quantity and location.

    The House bill would give the secretary of transportation the power to decide what information would not be disclosed to the public.

    The secretary would have discretion to withhold anything proprietary or security sensitive, as well as “specific response resources and tactical resource deployment plans” and “the specific amount and location of worst-case discharges, including the process by which a railroad carrier determines the worst-case discharge.”

    The House bill defines “worst-case discharge” as the largest foreseeable release of oil in an accident or incident, as determined by the rail carrier.

    I suggest we keep the White House and get congress back. These morons simply can’t be allowed behind the wheel.

  51. 51.

    Amir Khalid

    @efgoldman:
    I was responding to TT’s claim that Bernie was expanding the base, presumably beyond traditional Democratic voters — for which I have not seen (nor has TT offered) much supporting evidence. As far as Bernie’s contest for Democrats with Hillary goes, while he has come pretty far after starting from scratch, she has maintained a steady lead over him in recent months. He didn’t shift that in the debate, it’s pretty clear.

    As for the Republican nominee, whoever it is, I agree they won’t have room to tack back to the centre.

  54. 54.

    Thoughtful Today

    @Amir Khalid:

    There’s growing anecdotal evidence that there are some Republicans that would absolutely vote for the socialist promising that they’re kids will have free State College and University tuition, free healthcare, and $15 minimum wage jobs.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Bernie+Republicans

    A tremendous number of independents have been encouraging Bernie to run for President for … at least a decade. Seriously.

    Whether those groups, Republicans, independents, and the ‘Youngs’, become registered Democratic Party members in time for the State primaries and caucuses and then get out to vote for him … … that’s still three months away.

    A side note, Iowa’s Caucus system is deliberately difficult to participate in, you have to get time off of work (I don’t think there’s a State Law that requires employers to give those that want to attend a Caucus that right, anyone know for sure, with a link?) and then find where and when to Caucus, all of which isn’t easy.

  58. 58.

    Eric U.

    Sanders followers strongly remind me of Dean’s campaign. Same breathless threads on dKos. Anecdotal evidence of crossover voting. Not that there is anything wrong with any of that. I’m sure I’m not the only Dean supporter that was an enthusiastic Kerry voter.

  59. 59.

    Mike J

    @Mnemosyne:

    They’re still saying it will be a strong El Nino year — last year by this time, it had all dissipated, but we’re still on track this year. Mudslide season!

    Will it be able to overpower the Blob?

  62. 62.

    Thoughtful Today

    @Amir Khalid: Yup.

    https://www.laprogressive.com/republicans-for-bernie

    There are a tremendous number of blue-collar Republican workers who would benefit from Bernie’s policies. Establishment Dems often don’t talk to them, when they do they often aren’t as direct about using Bernie’s language of “values”, and sometimes when Dems talk to Republicans they just plain alienate them.

    I personally know Republicans that would absolutely vote for the socialist promising that they’re kids will have free State College and University tuition, free healthcare, and $15 minimum wage jobs … as long as they didn’t have to worry about him taking their guns, which he won’t.

    But they sure expect Hillary to take away their guns. She kind of drove that home to many in the debate.

  65. 65.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @SoupCatcher: Above and quite a bit south of the Old Zoo(I started my hike there). It was taken close to the heliport.

    Here’s a pic of Downtown LA from Mt. Hollywood. These were taken last Saturday, while it was hot it was pretty clear.

  66. 66.

    SoupCatcher

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Brings back memories. I grew up in Glassell Park, went to school in Glendale, and spent most of my teens cycling around that area.

    If you’re ever looking for a nice sunset picture of downtown, Peanut Lake in Ernest Debs Regional gives you a good view.

  67. 67.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    Beautiful little angel! Unfortunately someone left the web page up for Redstate? Poor kid… :)

    I predict that pic is going to become a regular item here, her precious expression just begs for a suitable caption.

  68. 68.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @SoupCatcher:

    If you’re ever looking for a nice sunset picture of downtown

    How about this one? It was taken from my step-daughter’s place west of Cal State LA.

    I’ve been looking at hiking in Debs as well as the Ascot Hills.

  69. 69.

    Amir Khalid

    @Thoughtful Today:
    That’s all very well, but where is the polling or other statistical evidence of these “tremendous numbers” of Republicans for Bernie? Are these tremendous numbers significant, and can you show that?

  71. 71.

    SoupCatcher

    @BillinGlendaleCA: From what I remember, Debs is pretty small. We would enter off Monterey Road and there was a short steep climb to get up to the lake from the parking lot.

    I haven’t been to the Ascot Hills. That was just a little too far from our neighborhood ;-)

  73. 73.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @SoupCatcher: So far my hikes have been limited to Griffith Park and the Verdugos. I’ve not hiked since I was a teen, I’m really enjoying it and taking pics of it.

  75. 75.

    Thoughtful Today

    Amir, I’m calling you out.

    You’ve been increasingly dishonest in reacting to what I actually write. It’s been persistent and largely puts a lie to how others see you.

    I specifically used the word “anecdotal” and you dishonestly imply I suggested ““tremendous numbers” of Republicans for Bernie”.

    There’s no way an intelligent person like you can pretend that’s not inherently dishonest.

    You’ve pointlessly squandered your reputation with me.

    Shame.

    To be clear, “tremendous numbers” of Republicans that I personally know is, as I explicitly stated in the previous post, anecdotal.

  76. 76.

    Thoughtful Today

    HA!

    I just realized you even rewrote what I wrote:

    “A tremendous number of independents have been encouraging Bernie to run for President for … at least a decade. Seriously.”

    I wasn’t even speaking about Republicans in that sentence.

  77. 77.

    SoupCatcher

    @BillinGlendaleCA: I’ve been enjoying your photographs as well. We did quite a bit of hiking growing up. A lot of it was over in Pasadena. Up behind JPL to Gould Mesa and Switzer Falls, or up Mount Lowe, or the old Cobb Estate at the top of Lake and then up to Echo Mountain. Occasionally, we would take off from the end of Rimcrest in Glendale by the Hoover H – although we called that viewpoint Wonderview, even though that street was further down the hill – and hike up the hill on the fire trails.

  78. 78.

    danielx

    Was that child viewing a replay of one of the Republican debates, or possibly a preview of the next one?

    “Yes, I am going to go there and bite the head off a live bat!”

    Ah, madness……

    Edit: that little girl is an absolute doll and clearly has a future in drama.

  79. 79.

    Amir Khalid

    @Thoughtful Today:
    I am well aware that tremendous numbers of Republicans and independent voters would benefit if his policies were implemented. Tremendous numbers of them would also benefit if Hillary’s policies (not radically different from Bernie’s) were implemented.

    For all that nitpicking over language, my question remains: is Bernie expanding the Democratic base by winning these voters over in significant (not necessarily tremendous) numbers? Do you have polling evidence of this?

  80. 80.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @SoupCatcher: One of the next hikes the kid and I’ve talked about doing is Echo mountain, but she just started school so it may wait for xmas break. I’ve been walking for the past 2 years and have been up to Wonderview and Rimcrest. However I’ve not gone off the road.*

    Here’s another shot of Glendale(from the Bill Eckert Trail above the Old Zoo) in faux infrared.

    *At least not from there, I’ve take the Los Flores, Beaudry North and Slough Canyon Motorways up to the top of the Verdugos.

  83. 83.

    SoupCatcher

    @BillinGlendaleCA: That’s a nice effect! Looks like downtown Glendale is in the middle of the wilderness.

    The cul-de-sac at the top of Rimcrest used to be a hang out spot when I was in high school. There were fewer houses up there, then. There’s a fire road that takes off up the hill, but it peters out after a while and you end up having to make your own trail. For some reason, soldiers were stationed on that hill around WWII. My dad remembers seeing a picture in the paper of a uniformed solider standing in snow looking down on Brand Boulevard.

  84. 84.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @SoupCatcher: They have “No Trespassing” signs up there on that road that goes by the “H” and a water tank up there. I’ve obeyed the sign(also I’d already hiked for about 4 or 5 miles from the cave at that point).

  85. 85.

    Thoughtful Today

    @Amir Khalid:

    Amir, in the future, if I’m around and you need to speak to me, even obliquely, I’m going to start turning the conversation to your Slaver Nation Malaysia.

    It’s one of the myriad reasons I found Hillary’s long time support of the TPP reprehensible, she knows that it’s farcical that there will be any realistic protections for the slaves in your nation.

    Obama’s support for a slaver nation like Malaysia is it’s own condemnation.

    You can prepare for those conversations by keeping us updated on what you’re country is doing to eliminate slavery within your borders.

    I know what I’m doing, specifically: Supporting an American Presidential Candidate that won’t put up with slavers and their enablers.

  86. 86.

    SoupCatcher

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Ah, yeah, I don’t remember seeing any signs. I’m sure a lot has changed in a quarter century. Or, it could just be like Woody Guthrie said:

    There was a wall there, that tried to stop me
    It had a sign saying, Private Property
    But on the back side, I didn’t see nothing.
    This land was made for you and me.

  87. 87.

    Jewish Steel

    I can see why Bernie is anecdotally surging in the polls. His supporters are measured, rational, and beguilingly winsome.

  88. 88.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @SoupCatcher: I’m thinking of driving up Rimcrest at night when we get some clearer weather and get some shots. I’ve taken a few with my old camera, but this one has better resolution(28mp) and a larger sensor.

  90. 90.

    seaboogie

    Congrats Amir, you appear to have your own troll – who is apparently off her meds.

    ETA: Have you posted a fax number? Because I see credenzas of info headed your way…

  91. 91.

    Thoughtful Today

    More dishonesty: “Hillary’s policies (not radically different from Bernie’s)”.

    That’s a sleazy attempt to diminish and blur serious policy differences.

    That’s not to diminish the radically different approach Republican Party leaders would advocate. But it’s noteworthy that many of the Clinton and Obama policies are essentially what were Republican Party policies in previous decades.

    Obamacare, Obama’s signature policy, is essentially Republican Nixon’care / Dole’care / right-wing Heritage Foundation solutions to health care.

    TPP, his ‘legacy’ policy, is essentially right-wing economic policies on steroids and, if it passes, will be passed by a majority of Republicans and neoliberal Bluedogs. TPP hands Corporations tremendous power while only superficially addressing oppressive labor conditions and environmental degradations.

  93. 93.

    scav

    @Jewish Steel: Amazing, isn’t it, and managing to be invisible to all non-anecdotal forms of observation and measurement. Must be the cunning plan of great stealth: they’ll undergo a phase-shift just before pulling the levers or scribbling on the scantrons so that they’ll suddenly become visible as the overwhelming bulk of the electorate.

  94. 94.

    SoupCatcher

    @BillinGlendaleCA: It’s one of my favorite night-time views. Brand Boulevard points straight as an arrow towards downtown LA, with downtown Glendale in the foreground.

    There’s another view like that, that always gets me verklempt, when I’m coming down the 2 freeway from the 210, and I first see downtown LA framed between hills. And I know I’m home.

  96. 96.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @SoupCatcher:

    …coming down the 2 freeway from the 210, and I first see downtown LA framed between hills

    That used to be my commute when I lived in Montrose and worked in downtown LA.

  97. 97.

    Thoughtful Today

    Quite seriously:

    Malaysia’s slave trade was one of the principle reasons that the (still?) secretive TPP disgusted me.

    Nothing Obama nor Clinton did or said, at any point, suggested there would be an elimination of slavery with those trade ‘partners’, let alone seriously address the ‘regularly’ oppressive labor conditions many of those trade partners employ.

    TPP, from every leak available, sold out American workers, left foreign workers without even a fig leaf of labor protections, and empowered Corporations in ways that were worse then just corrosive, they were corrupt.

  98. 98.

    Thoughtful Today

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    I’m sure someone’s given a name to that logical fallacy (it seems like several rolled together). Your position is, with only slight exaggeration, ‘how dare you not be happy with crumbs, you’re alternative is nothing‘.

    No. I recognize that Obama’s (old school) Republican healthcare policies are better than nothing.

    I also recognize that Democratic Party members should be ashamed of celebrating his small changes when there are still 29 million people in America without healthcare.

    Bernie’s policies would eliminate that failure.

    Hillary’s policies would … again be better than nothing but still leave millions without healthcare, millions more will continue struggling to pay for their deductibles, and many will find themselves condemned for not making ‘better choices’ in the labyrinthine Rube Goldberg profiteering shell game of private corporate insurance.

  100. 100.

    Jewish Steel

    @Amir Khalid: I guess that wraps it up for both you and Hillary. I trust the two of you will do the decent thing and turn yourselves in at the Hague.

  101. 101.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Thoughtful Today: Who isn’t covered under Obamacare? Undocumented immigrants, states that didn’t implement Medicaid, and who else? What’s Bernie’s solution for those folk? Single payer will NOT happen in the short term, it’s too big a change and people don’t like change.

  102. 102.

    amk

    @Thoughtful Today:

    It’s all fine and it may be or may not be factual. Question is how Sanders, a self-declared indie, going to attract traditional, ‘clueless’ dems and repubs, who are bulk of the electorate?

  104. 104.

    different-church-lady

    @Thoughtful Today:

    I still make judgements on substance, by that measure, Sanders won, hands down.

    I’ve never seen a ballot broken down into weighted segments like that.

  105. 105.

    scav

    @Jewish Steel: Clearly. The existence of slavery in the environs negates the need for standard, traditional, rules of logic or evidence. It’s the new trump card of rhetorical devices.

    ETA @Jewish Steel: Yup. Silent and invisible. We’ve had an upgrade worthy of Doctor Who.

  107. 107.

    different-church-lady

    @Thoughtful Today:

    There’s growing anecdotal evidence that there are some Republicans that would absolutely vote for the socialist promising that they’re kids will have free State College and University tuition, free healthcare, and $15 minimum wage jobs.

    Are they going to stop voting for Republican reps and senators too? Because unless they do, they ain’t gonna get any of that.

  110. 110.

    J R in WV

    @Thoughtful Today:

    The most stupid comment ever posted on B-J, ever.

    If you blah blah, I’m going to do this, again and again, just like this:
    blah blah blah!!

    Now, how stupid is that?

    And as if a retired guy on medical disability is responsible for his nation’s faults too. Now, really! Get over yourself!

  112. 112.

    Thoughtful Today

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    “Who isn’t covered under Obamacare?

    Currently 29 million in America.

    But even that number doesn’t address those that have ‘insurance’ but still aren’t receiving health care for a variety of reasons: Bad plans that don’t provide proper diagnoses and high deductibles that discourage poor people from getting care because … mortgage, car payment, food, etc.

  113. 113.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Thoughtful Today: Around 13 million are undocumented immigrants, they won’t be covered until we get some comprehensive immigration reform, or if Trump wins deported. Is Obamacare better than what existed prior to it’s passage?

  115. 115.

    Thoughtful Today

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Congrats, you’ve just used the argument I’ve heard from racist right-wingers trying to argue that America’s horrifically high infant mortality rate isn’t important because it’s mostly ‘browns and blacks’.

    Seriously, Bill, you’re a better person than this.

  122. 122.

    Thoughtful Today

    @J R in WV:

    It may sound odd to you, JR, but I sincerely feel a sense of responsibility for a trade policy that fails to address slavery.

    And yes, I absolutely feel Citizens of nations that have slavery have a responsibility to end slavery.

    ymmv

  124. 124.

    Thoughtful Today

    @amk:

    Providing a link through a search site can also include links to sources that disagree with what I’m trying to assert, it’s essentially a ‘freebie’ to trolls.

    On the other hand it can provide links to sources that can make my point more … pointedly, but those sites aren’t ones I’m familiar so wouldn’t (usually*) link to but you might be familiar with and trust.

    * Until tonight I’d never heard of the site MoralLowGround.com , but it’s headline leaps out: “Obama Accepts Malaysia Slavery in Order to Seal TPP Deal.”

    Moral low ground indeed.

  126. 126.

    mclaren

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Yes, the bottom line is that the Straits of Malacca are apparently so strategically important that Obama wants to ram through the TPP in order to guarantee access even at the price of accepting slavery, corporate tyranny, you name it.

    Despicable.

    And no one has even mentioned the fact that the TPP gives corporations the power to sue governments for imposing worker health & safety and environmental anti0-pollution regulations on the countries in which they operate. The TPP in effect punishes those nations which impose workers’ rights and anti-pollution and minimum wage laws.

  127. 127.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    I see that things have remained tastefully restrained while I was checking to make sure all of our cameras are working.

  137. 137.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Only if you work weekend overnights in a power generation or transmission facility in the state of Minnesota.

    Oh, we also have a landfill. No one really cares much about security there. Pretty much anything they’d steal we’d be happier without.

  142. 142.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Beacon Hill, I just read, had a beacon on it to alert flyers landing at the nearby Grand Central Airport of the hills to the west. The former site of Grand Central Airport now houses offices of the Giant Evil Corporation(GEC). The airport’s tower is still there and is currently being renovated by GEC.

  145. 145.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: Yup. I took it on my hike last Saturday.

    ETA: I pointed out that hill to madame earlier this week and she said: “That’s not a very tall mountain”. I thought, but didn’t say: “I’ve not seen YOU on that mountain.”

  146. 146.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Only in America: Man Eerily Leaves A Rifle In Utah Capitol Rotunda To Protest Gun Violence

    Utah Highway Patrol Sgt. Todd Royce told The Salt Lake Tribune on Friday that Cameron Carl Crimefighter (yes, that really is his legal name), 31, contacted investigators Thursday night after seeing pictures of himself circulate in the news and on social media.

    “The individual essentially said that the purpose of his actions was to advocate against gun violence,” Royce told the newspaper.

    The punch line?

    A spokesman for the Utah Highway Safety Office told The Washington Post that it was unclear whether the man who left the package would face charges because Utah is an open-carry state.

    “It has to be open and seen by all, of course,” he added. “With this situation, this is really not considered open carry… Whether he’s arrested or not is up to the investigators.”

    Not even the Onion could make this shit up.

  150. 150.

    NotMax

    Not just Americans.

    German hunter pays €50k to shoot ‘magnificent’ bull elephant – bringing back memories of CecilSource

    Follow-up:

    Import of trophy tusks from one of Africa’s largest elephants could be illegal, warns Germany, as reward offered for hunter’s identity Source

  151. 151.

    Amir Khalid

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    It doth seem to me that deliberately abandoning a firearm in a public place is a reckless act, which should attract some kind of criminal charge.

  152. 152.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Amir Khalid: What are you, some kinda furrner? This is AMERICA and guns are our friends. We love to caress them and fondle them. Ever see Colbert(on the Report) with “Sweetness”?

  157. 157.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Amir Khalid: Where as walking around with a loaded firearm and threatening other people with it is not.

    According to authorities, the two men walked into the Walmart on Highway 49 around 8 p.m. Witnesses said the man holding the shotgun was actively loading and racking the firearm. Walmart does not have a policy about guns inside its stores.

    “If I were in a situation where I’m in the store shopping with my family and I see an individual loading a 12 gauge, and racking it, I’m not coming to the conclusion this is good,” said Papania. “While the actions of these two men are sanctioned by state laws, what they did negatively impacted our community.”

    I repeat, the Onion could not make this shit up.

  158. 158.

    Thoughtful Today

    …

    BillinGlendaleCA doesn’t know if slavery or racism is worse.

    Amir Khalid thinks slavery in his country is funny.

    …

    /facepalm

  165. 165.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: If you look in the horizon(past downtown LA) in that pic(left to right), you can see Signal Hill, the buildings in downtown Long Beach(in between the buildings in LA), the cranes at the ports of LA and Long Beach, and the Vincent Thomas Bridge.

  172. 172.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    I learned today that IR cameras are also known as “Full Spectrum” cameras or “Ghost Hunting” cameras.

  174. 174.

    Amir Khalid

    If anyone comes across an Internet meme that Hillary’s supporters are pro-slavery, remember: you saw it on Balloon Juice first!

  176. 176.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @raven: I think they’re building a new bridge between Terminal Island and Long Beach.

    ETA: I’ve wanted to go down to San Pedro and see the Iowa, I’ve been on her sister ship twice.

  178. 178.

    Thoughtful Today

    uh,

    Have you really thought through your jokes about slavery in this specific thread? Amir? Baud?

  181. 181.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @raven: I really think this is a lost season for both. The whole Mauk thing came out of nowhere and behind that “offensive” line Mizzou has, I’m not sure it matters who stands behind center. (where “offensive” has more than one meaning)

  183. 183.

    Baud

    @Thoughtful Today:

    You seem to suffer from a similar problem that Greenwald suffers from. You assume that because we are mocking you, we are mocking whatever issue you happen to be talking about. Protip: we are just mocking you.

  184. 184.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @raven: We haven’t been down there in years, but madame like to go there and have crab and corn on the cob.

  187. 187.

    OzarkHillbilly

    If we could only get back to ancient times when our lives were spent hunting deer, picking berries and snuggling up with furs at sunset, we might finally get a decent night’s sleep.

    At least that is how the argument goes. But according to new research, modern life has done nothing to rob us of sleep, despite the invention of the electric lightbulb, the TV, the internet, smartphones and social media.

    Scientists who studied three hunter-gatherer and hunter-horticulturalist societies in Africa and Bolivia found that they stayed up for hours after sunset and got no more sleep than people in the industrialised world. None had access to electricity and their only source of light after dark was a campfire.

  188. 188.

    Thoughtful Today

    @amk:

    Slavery in Malaysia is well and widely documented. It’s one of the myriad issues I find reprehensible about the TPP and it’s supporters.

    While it’s great that after TPP was agreed to Hillary came out against it, it’s absolutely a ‘close the barn door after the horses have run out’ situation.

    Amir, in Malaysia, will likely benefit from TPP. He’s smart enough to understand that, as well as smart enough to understand how American politics works and who the most serious challenger to the TPP agreement is.

  189. 189.

    JPL

    Zoe, is a cutey and it’t was so nice that Lamb shared the photo with us. Is she watching Trump?

    It’s cold today and after errands I plan on braving the weather and work outside. The leaves are falling.

  193. 193.

    JPL

    Manziel appeared to be working hard this season to prove that he can play football at this level. I wonder how long the Browns will keep him. It’s nice to know that in Cleveland, you don’t necessarily have to have a field sobriety test. link
    Originally I saw the article on nbc.com/sports

  194. 194.

    Thoughtful Today

    Bill, I remember the handful of blue collar Republicans I got to vote for Bill Clinton in 1992 turn to me, before the end of 1993, just after Clinton had pushed through NAFTA, and tell me that Clinton had fucked them.

  195. 195.

    raven

    The boss is worried about Lil Bits bandage so here we sit in the vets office! Good thing it’s a night game!

  196. 196.

    Princess

    @Thoughtful Today: mclaren, is that you?

    Seriously, TT is sounding a lot like mclaren does when she is, um, impaired. I have been really surprised that mclaren seems to be Hillary-friendly this go-around. It makes sense to me that mclaren would be bright enough to know that her support of Bernie around here would not do him any favours, and might come up with a Thoughtful Today sock puppet. Who at this point is also not doing Bernie any favours.

  198. 198.

    Thoughtful Today

    …

    If any of you critics want to claim you are Bernie supporters, okay, lets hear your support for your candidate. If you’re a Hillary supporter, stand up and shout it out. Of course, that might mean a difficult debate on policies and issues.

    Like I said above, I helped convince Republicans to vote for Bill Clinton in 1992 who felt they got shafted with NAFTA in 1993 and doubly shafted when Bill flipped on his campaign promise and granted China Most Favored Nation trade status in 1994.

    ^ Clinton lost those votes for Democratic Senators and Representatives in the ’94 election because of his policies.

    I absolutely believe President Sanders policies could win those Republican voters back in 2018.

  200. 200.

    OzarkHillbilly

    So… Back to really important stuff- I’m going to a pig roast today. Finally settled on bringing a couple Upside Down Gingerbreads (dangerously delicious) and then I saw Tamara’s post and Jeffry Ws Praline Apple Bread. Decided I’d make one of those and one gingerbread. The weather will be perfect (60 and sunny) and I am hopeful a musician or 2 may show up.

  201. 201.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    It’s 9:00 Saturday morning in October. Isn’t it time for a college football thread? There is such an athletic contest in my area today, between the salt of the earth green and white team and the smug elitists in maize and blue.
    But I’m not partisan at all.

  203. 203.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @tybee:
    You know: morons.
    Also, the sporting press wants the names of the ones investigated for crimes, but the state Supreme Court needs more time to think about that.

  204. 204.

    Cervantes

    @Thoughtful Today:

    That’s a sleazy attempt to diminish and blur serious policy differences.

    Or it could just be militant ignorance.

    Maybe don’t ignore that possibility.

  205. 205.

    magurakurin

    @Thoughtful Today:

    You might be right, but if you’re wrong, will you vote for Bernie

    of course he will, jackass. We all will. The only people who aren’t going to vote for the eventual nominee are like 20 or 30 rabid poster on DKOS.

    You start the thread pointing to a poll, then tell us polls don’t mean shit when someone else points you to a poll you don’t like. Here’s the deal, boss, you need to be really, really fucking concerned about Sander’s weakening in New Hampshire. If he loses New Hampshire it will well and truly be over before it ever started. Bernie’s heart is in the right place and I think he has done a service to the party and the country by bringing his issues front and center. He is to be praised for his efforts. His somewhat delusion and rabid fans on the internet….not so much.

  206. 206.

    Gimlet

    Perhaps the Democrats on the “Benghazi” now “Email” House committee could bring in Dick Cheney or Dubya to tell the proper way to handle emails on a private server.

  207. 207.

    gelfling545

    Picked my teenage granddaughter up at the subway station (our little “subway to nowhere” but that’s another story) Thursday when we were having 60 mph winds. She gets in the car, pulls down the mirror & yelps “Oh my god, I’ve got Trump hair!”

  208. 208.

    gelfling545

    @Amir Khalid: Only anecdotal but here in WNY he is getting a good deal of attention from Republicans who find Trump et al appalling & have a knee-jerk aversion to HRC. Unfortunately, registered Republicans cannot vote in the Democratic primary so….

  209. 209.

    Schlemazel

    @Thoughtful Today:
    My, you’re quit the asshole, aren’t you. after right to retche’s failure did you get hired to try and disrupt and cause dissension on the D side? I can’t imagine someone (even on BJ) being this big an asshole without being paid to try. You have my permission, and strong encouragement to FOADIAF

  210. 210.

    Kathleen

    @Baud: That made me laugh out loud. Thank you! Between your comment and little sweetie pie’s picture, I’m so glad I visited the Juicers today. Thank you, Lamh and Baud!

  217. 217.

    different-church-lady

    @Baud:

    I haven’t made up my mind who to support, but you’re doing a bang up job of making my decision easier.

    So clearly TT’s not getting your vote then?

  218. 218.

    Cervantes

    @gelfling545:

    Only anecdotal but here in WNY he is getting a good deal of attention from Republicans who find Trump et al appalling & have a knee-jerk aversion to HRC.

    Anecdotal shmanecdotal. What form does this “good deal of attention from Republicans” take? Are you seeing it in Letters to the Editor, hearing it around the water-cooler, or … ? (Just curious.)

    Unfortunately, registered Republicans cannot vote in the Democratic primary so….

    Well, then — we’ll just have to nominate him for them!

  220. 220.

    benw

    Good morning, everyone! I’m a Bernie supporter and I’m like 99% sure he’s against slavery and not a racist, but IDK sometimes shit can be confusing. Hope that clears everything up!

    SANDERS/NIECE 2016

  221. 221.

    Cervantes

    @Baud:

    I haven’t made up my mind who to support, but you’re doing a bang up job of making my decision easier.

    Shades of cutting off your nose to spite your face, no?

    Are you thinking of voting not to nominate Sanders because giving him the nomination would please his supporters too much?

  222. 222.

    different-church-lady

    @Thoughtful Today:

    While it’s great that after TPP was agreed to Hillary came out against it, it’s absolutely a ‘close the barn door after the horses have run out’ situation.

    Sooooooo… if Hillary had come out against TPP before it was agreed to, that would have stopped it from being agreed to?

  223. 223.

    Thoughtful Today

    @magurakurin:

    “You start the thread pointing to a poll, then tell us polls don’t mean shit when someone else points you to a poll you don’t like. “

    I recognize the utility of polls while recognizing that they are taking snapshots of moving objects.

    The New Hampshire poll indicates that Sanders still has a challenge from Hillary there. The national poll indicates that Hillary still has a challenge from Bernie, despite what the Pundit class is claiming.

    But the only ‘poll’ that seriously matters is the General Election and before that, the Primary Delegate count. I’m really surprised and disappointed that so many Hillary supporters don’t understand that.

    I’d really hate to think that Hillary supporters are assuming that Pundits and anti-democratic Superdelegates are what matters?

  224. 224.

    different-church-lady

    @Cervantes:

    Are you thinking of voting not to nominate Sanders because giving him the nomination would please his supporters too much?

    That is a fantasy of mine at times, yes.

  226. 226.

    different-church-lady

    @Thoughtful Today:

    …I remember the handful of blue collar Republicans I got to vote for Bill Clinton in 1992…

    Ah, there they are! The Anecdotal Bernie Crossover Republicans!

    I wonder how Bernie’s gonna fuck the team this time?

  230. 230.

    different-church-lady

    @Thoughtful Today:

    You might be right, but if you’re wrong, will you vote for Bernie?

    Doofus, some of us might vote for Bernie NOW if only you’d shut the fuck up.

  232. 232.

    Gin & Tonic

    @benw: She’d be a perfect choice, demographically. Balance an ancient white dude from Vermont with a young black woman from Louisiana. Great thinking.

  233. 233.

    magurakurin

    @Thoughtful Today:

    No we think Sanders losing to Biden, who isn’t running, in Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio is what matters. What think Sanders getting like 7% of the African American vote in South Carolina is what matters. We think that every reasonable metric shows that Sander’s pathway to the nomination is like climbing K2 with a pair of penny loafers and a little sack of peanuts.

    Aside from his near electorally impossibility of securing the nomination, there is also the trouble aspect of the fact that most of his proposals are essentially impossible to achieve. And some are actually just wrong headed…not everyone actually needs free college. Those things are important too. Sorry if I don’t think that Bernie Sanders is all that…but, you know, actually…he isn’t.

  235. 235.

    Thoughtful Today

    Do the same rules work both ways?

    Does it reflect on Clinton when a Clinton supporters tells somebody to “FOADIAF”, suggest someone is “impaired”, or “off her meds” or calls them an “asshole” for sharing their opinions?

    Or is it like with the right-wing hypocrisy, that such tactics are acceptable by their team but unacceptable from the other team?

    Are Hillary Clinton supporters really OK coming off like right-wing hypocrites?

  236. 236.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Cervantes: I rather suspect the decision Baud is referring to is whether or not to read anymore of TT’s comments. A decision that was really quite easy for me.

  237. 237.

    Thoughtful Today

    Bonus:

    You gotta love someone who smears people as “rabid fans” who acts offended by incivility.

  239. 239.

    Gimlet

    What think Sanders getting like 7% of the African American vote in South Carolina is what matters.

    Oh no, we’ll lose SC to the Republicans in the 2016 election!

  240. 240.

    different-church-lady

    @Thoughtful Today: Me suspects you have some baggage you’ve brought in from outside this thread, yes?

    Myself, it doesn’t really come as news that political supporters of many different candidates can (and will) be assholes. I just don’t let it affect me so personally that I have to start spouting nonsense.

  241. 241.

    gelfling545

    @Cervantes: First indication was in August when my daughter, who lives in what was Kathy Hochul’s former district (it’s been all switched around now but it was NY 26) participated in the town garden walk. It’s a heavily GOP district. She had her Bernie sign on the lawn and of the 150 or so people who came to see her garden an even dozen asked where they could get a sign. Other daughter, lives in the same district, also has a Bernie sign. An elderly gent rang her door bell to ask where to get one. He showed her his voter registration card (Republican) & said he was fed up with the nonsense. One facebook friend & shirttail relation, registered Republican but not insanely so, has gone wildly pro-Bernie & reading the comments from his (rather large) circle of friends & acquaintances has been a revelation. Large number of conservative Catholics in my family & a couple of born again types are all leaning pro-Bernie. A very interesting phenomenon on a small scale. If I’d been asked, I’d have thought they’d all hate him as some of them have been doing the Obama/socialist rant in the past. What I actually think is happening is that they are willing to listen to this talk from a cranky old white man but couldn’t let themselves hear it from a black man or a woman. As I said, all anecdotal but surprising, at least to me.

  242. 242.

    Cervantes

    @magurakurin:

    And some are actually just wrong headed…not everyone actually needs free college.

    Not everyone needs college, one could argue — but I think if one were to institute a “free college” program covering state schools as suggested by the Senator from Vermont, one can also argue that such a program should be open to all so as to minimize stigma.

    Perhaps your concern is that if such a program were open to all, that swarms of rich kids (and parents) who could afford Harvard and Yale might choose to take the free money and attend state schools instead. This concern is … well, I think it is easily over-played.

  243. 243.

    magurakurin

    @Thoughtful Today:

    No, it reflects on what an asshole you were to Amir, who has been posting here fro like…forever. It reflects on what an asshole YOU act like in pretty much every thread. I don’t associate you with Bernie Sanders at all. In fact, I’m pretty sure if Bernie Sanders were on here HE’D call you an asshole. So, no it doesn’t reflect on Hillary Clinton at all. It just shows that people here are getting tired of your little medicine show. And you attacks on Amir today were way, way out of line. Hence…fuck off and go die in a fire.

    Pretty goddamn simple, really.

  244. 244.

    benw

    @Cervantes: Great, thanks! It’ll be good for Bernie’s campaign to know the first name of his veep. Gets awkward referring to her as niece all the time.

    BERNIE/ZOE 2016-2052!

    Repeal the 22nd!

  245. 245.

    Cervantes

    @gelfling545:

    Thank you for writing up the details!

    I am mightily cheered.

    Less so by this:

    What I actually think is happening is that they are willing to listen to this talk from a cranky old white man but couldn’t let themselves hear it from a black man or a woman.

    Still, I’ll take whatever revolution I can get — and Jim Webb can go fly a kite!

  246. 246.

    magurakurin

    @Gimlet:

    Uh, if Sanders does that poorly in South Carolina, he won’t have to worry about the general…because he won’t. be. the. nominee. Sanders has to beat Clinton first…ain’t gonna happen. And one reason is he is going to have his clock cleaned in South Carolina.

  247. 247.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Cervantes: I look at it the same way I look at Social Security: It is a lot easier to get everyone to buy into the increased costs of a program if they all benefit from it as well.

  248. 248.

    different-church-lady

    So, let’s break this down a bit…

    On the one hand we got a bunch of people who started off smugly asserted Sanders had zero chance of winning anything, and who are now not so smug about it, but still just as dickish.

    And on the other hand we got a bunch of people who feel so aggrieved by the first group that they think the path to success is to attempt patently ridiculous reality-distortion techniques until the first group gives in.

    And in neither hand we got a bunch of people who think the folks in both hands are insufferable. This group probably includes the candidates themselves.

    Who am I missing, other than the overwhelming majority of the American Public?

  250. 250.

    Cervantes

    @benw:

    Repeal the 22nd!

    It’s not that Amendment so much as it is Article II, Section I, wherein:

    neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years

    Hence 2052.

    Prior to that date, it’ll have to be someone’s older niece.

  251. 251.

    magurakurin

    @Thoughtful Today:

    you really are a dipshit, aren’t you. Incivility, I got heaps of that for you, mate. Heaps. I’ve been listening to your drivel for damn near two straight months now. Had my fill. You’re free to spew all you want…I’m free to call you names and spit poison. I imagine it works for both of us on some level. A fucked up disfunctional level.

  252. 252.

    different-church-lady

    @Cervantes: My concern would be that there’s no damn jobs for all those free college grads after they graduate from their free colleges.

  253. 253.

    Cervantes

    @different-church-lady:

    Who am I missing, other than the overwhelming majority of the American Public?

    That’s the most difficult part. They are simply not paying attention.

    Some call it shameful but it’s more complicated than that.

  254. 254.

    magurakurin

    @Gimlet:

    No, dumb ass, it means she’ll win the nomination for the Democratic Party. You want to place a bet right now? Name your dollar amount. Bernie Sanders will not be the nominee.

  257. 257.

    Gimlet

    @magurakurin:

    My only point was that there are more states than SC in the primary.

    I could be shouting about Sander’s chances in Iowa, but so what? California is more populous, I don’t know how it will go. Momentum builds even before SC goes to the polls and that changes things too.

  259. 259.

    Cervantes

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I rather suspect the decision Baud is referring to is whether or not to read anymore of TT’s comments.

    You may, but I don’t see clearly how to get there from here:

    I haven’t made up my mind who to support, but you’re doing a bang up job of making my decision easier.

    Anyhow:

    A decision that was really quite easy for me.

    À chacun son goût, bien sûr.

  261. 261.

    Cervantes

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Are Hillary Clinton supporters really OK coming off like right-wing hypocrites?

    But it’s not all Clinton supporters you’re dealing with — it may be only the ones you’re dealing with.

  262. 262.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Gimlet: South Carolina, in 2012, was within the range of states that are otherwise considered possibly reachable, like Indiana, Missouri or Georgia. The margin was 10%, and it was far closer to “swing” than to “red.” Can it swing? I don’t know, but if everyone agrees it can’t, then it won’t/

  263. 263.

    Cervantes

    @different-church-lady:

    Sooooooo… if Hillary had come out against TPP before it was agreed to, that would have stopped it from being agreed to?

    For example, when she was Secretary of State, do you mean?

  264. 264.

    Mnemosyne (tablet)

    @Cervantes:

    Search “slave” in this thread and you will discover that TT thinks that because (a) slavery exists in Malaysia and (b) Amir lives in Malaysia, Amir is personally responsible for it.

    They should be hard to miss since, like all cranks, TT likes to use a lot of bold text.

  268. 268.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne (tablet):

    Search “slave” in this thread and you will discover that TT thinks that because (a) slavery exists in Malaysia and (b) Amir lives in Malaysia, Amir is personally responsible for it.

    I read all that stuff above, heaven help me. And here I see your paraphrase. The closest statement I could find above is this:

    And yes, I absolutely feel Citizens of nations that have slavery have a responsibility to end slavery.

    Do you disagree?

    They should be hard to miss since, like all cranks, TT likes to use a lot of bold text.

    No, some cranks use other devices.

  269. 269.

    Thoughtful Today

    “… if Hillary had come out against TPP before it was agreed to, that would have stopped it from being agreed to?”

    If it had been important to her she could have single-handedly stopped it, yes. But it would have drastically risked her political calculations to become President because it would have meant standing up to Obama while she was in his administration.

    Even after leaving the Administration, Hillary could have used her Superdelegate team to stop TPP. But she waited until long after the votes in Congress greenlit it.

    Even now that it’s been agreed to by the various countries (some despotic, some riddled with slavery, others with putrid environmental records) Hillary could show leadership and lead her Superdelegates in Congress to vote against TPP.

    But at best I expect some weak rhetorical jabs at TPP from her after which the same Superdelegates that are supporting her will work with Republicans to vote TPP in.

  270. 270.

    scav

    The slavery statement is pure squid ink tossed about because Amir kept asking for evidence beyond the anecdotal invisible to metics ground-swell of people that are totally voting for Bernie because I know some. As a rhetorical device, it’s bargain basement three-card monte. But hey, prairie chickens gotta strut their stuff.

  271. 271.

    Applejinx

    That thin waterway links the Pacific Ocean to the Indian Ocean. Through it last year passed 85 percent of China’s imported oil, according to the latest U.S. Department of Defense estimates. Imports provide 60 percent of the oil that China’s growing economy needs. (Note that the Defense Department is keeping this information.)

    The U.S. Navy currently dominates this vital strait courtesy of warships that are based in Singapore (at the southern end of the Malay Peninsula) and tacitly welcomed by Malaysia. Both of those nations are perturbed and directly threatened by China’s muscular actions in their neighborhood. In a sign of its concern, Malaysia has even offered to expand the American military footprint in the region by hosting U.S. Navy aircraft.

    For the Malaysians, the worry is not simply the Strait of Malacca. It is the idea that China may become a hegemon in the South China Sea. Beijing’s expansion there has directly infringed on waters claimed by Malaysia, the Philippines, Brunei, Vietnam, Indonesia and Taiwan.

    That region is already vital for global trade — 60 percent of international commerce travels through it — and potentially the future of energy because of its oil and gas deposits. Then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in 2010 that the U.S. had a national interest in maintaining free passage through the South China Sea. CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto revealed Tuesday that the U.S. may soon send aircraft and warships even closer to the contested islands being fortified by China.

    By reaffirming ties to Malaysia through the TPP, the U.S. would secure its ability to pressure China — and punish it for disruptive behavior in the South China Sea and elsewhere– courtesy of the Strait of Malacca.

    Welp, that explains a lot. Looks like what Obama is really after is bigger game, notably the USA’s military and strategic position w.r.t. China. I guess the Strait of Malacca is a pretty freaking big deal if that’s the price he’ll pay to control it.

  273. 273.

    Cervantes

    @Applejinx:

    I guess the Strait of Malacca is a pretty freaking big deal if that’s the price he’ll pay to control it.

    Objectively it is a big-enough deal that we should worry about it, yes.

    But ignoring slavery, massive corruption, and other kinds of unpleasantness to get what we want is not paying a price.

    This is what paying a price looks like:

    As He died to make men holy, let us die to make them free

    Quaint, I know.

  274. 274.

    Thoughtful Today

    Amir has had a weird ax to grind against Sanders for some time. It’s been subtle, ymmv, but after reading him joking about slavery in his country he lost any benefit of the doubt I might have had.

    Slavery in Malaysia, his country, offends me in general. But the TPP agreement essentially codifies it. I’d love to be wrong.

    Seriously, show me the text of the TPP agreement that has teeth in it that will eliminate slavery, or at least rigorously combat it in the countries we’re now ‘partners’ in trade with.

    Short of that, a Malaysian’s sneering attitude toward the one American Presidential candidate who I know has been consistently against the trade pact with his slaver country doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt any more.

  275. 275.

    Amir Khalid

    Thoughtful Today has made the claim that of strong potential or actual support for Bernie among blue-collar Republicans and independents because Bernie had been championing free college. I was pressing TT to substantiate that claim.

    TT chose instead to bring up slavery in Malaysia, explicitly to change the subject. (See TT’s comment #89.) TT even calls my country a “slaver nation”, as though the practice were legal here and openly carried out, which of course it is not. Abuse by some Malaysian employers of expatriate workers (mostly from Indonesia and the Indian sub-continent) is a long-standing problem; like all Malaysians I am disappointed by the Barisan Nasional government’s failure to address it, especially since that failure seems to be only getting worse.

  277. 277.

    Amir Khalid

    @Thoughtful Today:
    I have no axe to grind with Bernie. In fact, I don’t even have plans to vote against him in the primaries, honest. I just don’t think he’s as strong a candidate as Hillary, and this an opinion shared by many in America. It just seems unfortunate that his candidacy seems to have attracted at least one over-emotional kook.

  279. 279.

    ruemara

    Most of this thread is bollucks. Anecdotes of Republicans loving Bernie are heartwarming and bolster your view that Bernie Sanders is a revolutionary figure that will transform America with his economic populism that bridges the political divide. However, until you get some science, it’s just an anecdote that’s nice to hear.

    Would it surprise me? No. Obama got a lot of Republican peel off votes, even more when La Palin appeared on the scene. Does it mean Sanders will win the primary? Not unless it’s an open primary. Does it mean without him we’ll lose the general? Probably not. It also doesn’t mean that if he won the whole kit & caboodle he wouldn’t screw you on something or do nearly nothing because he has no Congress to work with because his fans seem to slide past the role of the entire government in getting shit done.

    If you want to talk up Bernie, just talk about his proposals and his ideas on how. It’s not going to kill you. That’s largely the biggest thing he has to do to convince a Hillary supporter to jump ship. Accusing them of supporting slavery & racism? That hasn’t worked to win votes at all. And yes, the more dickish your supporters seem can and does turn off potential ones. After over 24 hours of cyberstalking and harrasment, I decided I wouldn’t elect Sanders to be the May Queen. Something has to be wrong if every interaction with a basic policy question turns into hours long haranguing. I didn’t support Obama until I was good and ready and satisfied I understood who he was and what he wanted to try. Why should I do any less for Sanders? His supporters need to start respecting that and encouraging the process. You win one over, you probably add two or three through word of mouth.
    Anything else and, see above thread where you just come off as angry at Hillary and too fragile to consider something very basic about anecdotes. That’s all.

  282. 282.

    Thoughtful Today

    Amir, you deliberately rewrote what I’d written and attributed it to me.

    I try to be quite careful with my text, clearly my use of the word “anecdotal” confused people who assumed I didn’t understand what it meant … and then weirdly criticized me for using it correctly.

    I was quite clear about personal interactions with Republicans (and I should add, even more independents), but even that was, at best misunderstood, or worse, deliberately mis-characterized.

    But at least nobody but Amir rewrote what I’d written in order to mis-characterize what I’d said.

  283. 283.

    different-church-lady

    @ruemara: Absolute word.

    Except…

    If you want to talk up Bernie, just talk about his proposals and his ideas on how.

    TT would not be wrong in thinking there’d be an immediate handful of dismissive, knee-jerk “He’s not going to be the nominee” responses from the usual jerks with knees. But it’s all in how you handle the jerks. Out-jerking them does nobody any good. Especially one’s candidate of preference.

    If folks would resist the urge to immediately grab a shovel and start piling on the manure, maybe there’d be some space for others to say, “Hey, why aren’t we giving Bernie a fair shake here?”

  285. 285.

    Cervantes

    @Baud:

    Dude, fuck off. Go back to your hivemind and tell them you failed. Maybe they can demote you to a lesser blog.

    Hmm.

    A tad less convincing than your usual fine self — pardon my language.

    Now I’m not sure this presidenting thing is your true calling.

    Anyhow, I’m off. Feel free to shower me with abuse, too: I won’t see it!

  286. 286.

    chopper

    @ruemara:

    It also doesn’t mean that if he won the whole kit & caboodle he wouldn’t screw you on something or do nearly nothing because he has no Congress to work with because his fans seem to slide past the role of the entire government in getting shit done.

    I’ve been trying (why I have no idea) to get that idea through to the Ron Paul fans for years.

  287. 287.

    Applejinx

    Either Bernie OR Hillary would win. We get to choose. Neither choice is disastrous since Bernie successfully made Hillary tack left.

    He did this not by raging at her but by establishing the ELECTORATE is left. That’s all it took, Hil is a smart cookie.

    I’ve been to see Bernie in person, in Keene NH. I can’t speak for his fans, especially on the Internet (or fake shitposters trolling to try and make him look bad, of which there’s some on literally every side because Internet) but I know he specifically called for town meetings and community involvement and for people to go out and DO stuff and get involved.

    So in that sense, I was there to see that Bernie personally made a plea for the role of the entire government in getting shit done. That’s part of his platform, is that people can’t just sit around waiting for a Presidential election year. And he’s right.

    Whether his fans get it, that’s another story. In no case, no matter the candidate, can you be sure their ‘fans’ are who they say they are. This might be the Facebook election: the one where it’s almost impossible to work out what the hell is even true anymore, because there’s so much flak being thrown up in every direction.

    I think Bernie’s doing a great job of showing Hillary the electorate’s swung profoundly left, and that she’s smart enough to get that. I’ll still vote Bernie and try to get him to be the nominee, but I don’t think it’d be a great loss if Hil out-politics him. He’s got to deal with that if he wants to be effective (since they’re both electable).

  289. 289.

    Thoughtful Today

    @chopper:

    To be clear:

    There isn’t a rally where Bernie doesn’t go out of his way to say that he needs millions of supporters to help him pressure Congress to enact the policies he’s proposing.

    Bernie’s already looking at 2018, it’s an implicit part of what he’s talking about: Electing good Dems to Congress, keeping his supporters engaged, informed, active, and ready to vote in the midterm elections.

  290. 290.

    Cervantes

    @Baud:

    I stand by good people.

    Seems I’ve heard that before — everyone thinks it’s true of themselves, don’t they?

    Even the very person you were criticizing … was just trying to stand by a good person.

    Probably you don’t like the way it was done, but then see here!

    I’ll be an excellent president.

    Seems I’ve heard that somewhere before, too!

    —

    On a more serious note: Is it too late for you, Baud 2016!, to enter the Republican primaries and win that nomination? It would be a true mitzvah. The hearts and minds of a grateful nation would be yours forever. (You know it’s true.)

  292. 292.

    Baud

    @Cervantes:

    Seems I’ve heard that before — everyone thinks it’s true of themselves, don’t they?

    If only there were some way to determine who was correct. Until then…

    Probably you don’t like the way it was done, but then see here!

    Absolutely not. Ends do not justify means.

  293. 293.

    chopper

    @Thoughtful Today:

    There isn’t a rally where Bernie doesn’t go out of his way to say that he needs millions of supporters to help him pressure Congress to enact the policies he’s proposing.

    Same was true of Ron Paul. Didn’t mean it would happen.

  294. 294.

    FlipYrWhig

    Read to the end of the thread and kept waiting for Thoughtful Today to say “the helicopters weren’t laughing.” Lost opportunity, that.

  295. 295.

    FlipYrWhig

    @chopper: They might “pressure” Congress, but republicans in Congress will never ever ever bow to pressure from Berniacs. They don’t need their votes to get reelected. Pleasing progressive Democrats is not something Republicans worry about. It’s a nice sounding theory of change but it’s basically “bully pulpit” and it has zero chance of working. You have to elect Democrats in places that are currently electing Republicans. The end.

  297. 297.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cervantes:

    Yes, you’ve made it obvious many times that you think commenters you personally agree with should be allowed to abuse others without any pushback. But, hey, you and TT can form your own little circle jerk to complain about how eeeevil Amir is for daring to both criticize Bernie Sanders and live in a country with slavery. Because, of course, the United States ended all slavery in the US in 1865, right? We certainly don’t have garment manufacturers busted every year in California for importing slave labor. We’re better than that, which is why no one from Malaysia is allowed to criticize Bernie Sanders!

    As you can see, I am clearly not a crank since I prefer italics to bold.

  298. 298.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    If that’s your way of answering the question (“Do you disagree?”), I have to tell you it leaves something to be desired.

    As for what you actually say in your comment, I’ll just kindly draw a veil over it for you, right here.

  299. 299.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Gin & Tonic: Late, but I think Georgia is more likely to swing than SC because GA has Dem pols (with a power base in ATL) who have been organizing longer and harder, plus the figures are headed decisively in the right direction, giving a credible path to a D statewide win. SC lacks organization and what little there is is a base of high education whites. However, the majority of Democrats in the state are actually African American and gerrymandering and the party flip have crushed their political infrastructure. Without organizing work–and in GA it is WORK, there are plenty of whites who do not want to see Black people in GA voting–I don’t see how the needle moves in SC.

    More likely D activists in SC will assist with GA or NC efforts.

    IN kind of moved in the wrong direction since 2008 so I doubt it will be a real D target this time either. You have to look into their state level politics and it’s pretty gross.

  301. 301.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Amir Khalid: It’s all too cute when slavery, er, “human trafficking”, continues in the US, with, as you say, expatriate workers, in various sectors in the US economy including farm labor and manufacturing.

    Some West Indians accused a farmer of enslaving them in my own county less than five years ago. No one was prosecuted.

  302. 302.

    Cervantes

    @Another Holocene Human:

    It’s all too cute when slavery, er, “human trafficking”, continues in the US, with, as you say, expatriate workers, in various sectors in the US economy including farm labor and manufacturing.

    You’re losing track of the argument. (1) Someone T says we should support S here because S is more likely (than C) to put pressure on Government M to do something about slavery in M. (2) Further, says T, that same S is more likely (than C) to do something about similar problems you identify here at home.

    You can disagree with each assertion, by all means, but there’s nothing “cute” (or hypocritical) about any of it, except if you’re losing track of the argument and it’s all just a long sequence of barely connected words.

    Some West Indians accused a farmer of enslaving them in my own county less than five years ago. No one was prosecuted.

    Well, do something about it!

    Trust me: That is the entire point of this discussion!

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