Another excellent piece of genuine journalism from John H. Richardson in Esquire. I’ll never agree with C.J. ChiversGrisham, subject of this profile, but Richardson takes it past ‘four legs, two legs baaaad’ sloganeering to explore “[W]ith the Second Amendment never more secure, the sudden mania for open carry“:
… On the sidewalk stand thirteen heavily armed Texans, a six-year-old boy, and a baby in a stroller. They’ve got AR-15’s on their shoulders, Glocks on their hips, cute little 9mms in ankle holsters. One of the women has a pink tactical weapon that looks like it might deliver lethal valentines. They’re from a group called Open Carry Texas, and they’re out on this hot summer night in the small town of Temple, an hour north of Austin, to exercise their constitutional right to carry firearms…
A calm and confident man steps forward. This is C. J. Grisham, the leader of the group, a forty-one-year-old Iraq and Afghanistan veteran who is just five feet five but blessed with twice his share of command presence…
We have always loved our guns. Guns freed us, fed us, protected us from the dangers of the frontier, and served us in war. In an unsettled land where every man was on his own, they became the ultimate talisman of personal security. The result today is more than three hundred million guns in private hands and individual gun rights—despite thirty thousand deaths a year and the ceaseless run of mass shootings in schools, theaters, and churches—steadily affirmed and expanded by legislatures and courts. This might seem like a good time for gun lovers to celebrate. Instead, thousands of Americans like C. J. Grisham are marching with tactical weapons in the streets, pressing their demand for even fewer regulations in the most intimidating way possible, and many say they won’t be satisfied until there are no gun regulations at all. But we’ve become so used to the argument over guns that we might just shrug off Grisham’s stand as the same old thing.
It’s not. Something very strange is happening in the American mind. Because the more complicated truth is that we’ve always feared our guns, too. Dueling was such a problem in colonial America, George Washington thought it might derail the revolution. To tame the violence of the frontier, Kentucky passed the first gun-control law in 1813. By the 1840s, lawmakers in states such as Arkansas and Tennessee were already arguing about the implications of the “well-regulated militia” clause of the Second Amendment. The mob violence of Prohibition and the assassination of President Kennedy led to the first federal firearms restrictions, and states and cities continued to pass their own regulations. Often these were bipartisan, especially when black people had the audacity to carry guns; in 1967, Governor Ronald Reagan passed a gun-control law after the Black Panthers held an open-carry event at the California State Capitol.
But the modern era of guns began with the shocking debut of America’s new militarized police tactics at the siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco in 1993, the pivotal event that sparked the rise of the militia movement, the libertarian movement, and eventually the Tea Party. As the National Rifle Association switched its focus from hunting to attacking the government’s “jackbooted thugs” and Republicans rose to power in state and federal offices, the gun-rights movement racked up victory after victory, culminating in the Supreme Court’s 2008 recognition of the individual right to own guns in District of Columbia v. Heller…
Many states and cities responded by supporting gun rights: Wisconsin legislators wrote a law to remind police officers that carrying a gun wasn’t a crime, Chicago abolished its gun registry, a county in Washington state repealed its “no guns allowed” regulation in public parks. In 2012, Oklahoma passed an open-carry law called the Self-Defense Act.
But somehow Texas was a holdout. Police there were fiercely opposed to open carry, saying it would make their lives more dangerous. In the era of mass shootings, they said, how is it even possible to tell the difference between a patriot and a deranged killer? Isn’t a pointless tragedy inevitable? The first time Grisham organized a rally in his quiet little central-Texas city, police put snipers on rooftops, called in the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security, and took pictures of everyone in the crowd. Outraged, Grisham responded with an onslaught of activism one gun blog called “the biggest social movement in Texas since the Civil Rights days.” Over the next two years, he would lead more than two thousand events across the state and recruit fifty thousand active followers, who pestered their local representatives relentlessly. In January 2016, largely because of him, Texans will be able to carry handguns openly for the first time since Reconstruction. The Dallas Morning News made him a finalist for Texan of the Year…
The group was amiable and easygoing. Most of them were hostile to immigration and skeptical of the president, Barry Soetoro, but they were as suspicious as any liberal of the drug war, the police, the Patriot Act, and the prison system. Few had good words for George W. Bush, the Iraq War, or the Republican party. Gay marriage was a touchier subject, but most took a libertarian attitude. One was wearing a kilt. Another had a ten-inch tattoo of Cartman from South Park—that was Big Jim Everard, the giant cheerful Falstaff of the crew and Grisham’s right-hand man, accompanied by his baby and his toddler and Molly, the girlfriend he hadn’t quite gotten around to marrying. Grisham’s wife, Emily, the one with the pink rifle, was a wholesome Mormon who admitted she would never go to a gun rally on her own.
Grisham gathered them in a circle and went over the rules. “Number one, don’t handle your weapon. Watch your hands. Resting them on the stock is not a big deal, but keep your hand away from the trigger assembly. Our purpose is to raise awareness. Look approachable. Smile. Wave.”…
Like so many modern social movements, this one started with a video posted on the Internet. In the video, taken on a cool day in March 2013, Grisham is walking down the side of a country road with his fifteen-year-old son, who is doing a ten-mile hike for a Boy Scout merit badge. He’s wearing a hydration backpack and a bush hat with a red bandanna draped over his neck, and he’s carrying his AR-15 slung across his chest like a soldier on patrol—which puts him in a legal gray area because you can carry a rifle in Texas but not “in a manner calculated to alarm.”…
liberal
ISTR that it started quite a bit earlier than that. And the cause is probably arms and ammo manufacturer’s desire for higher profits.
Nick
8 years ago, my wife and I had to decide if she was going to apply for a green card, or if we were both going to emigrate to Canada. We chose the latter, and literally every day I read something that makes me feel that that was a good decision. Today, this article is that thing.
It’s just different living in a sane society. Perfect strangers act normally and non-fearfully in large numbers, and eventually you actually start to expect it.
guachi
New thread so I’ll repost for those in America curious about the Canadian elections.
CSPAN2 in America for the simulcast of the CBC broadcast in Canada.
Nick
Here’s another site:
http://www.cbc.ca/includes/federalelection/dashboard/index.html
Patricia Kayden
So Texans want zero regulations on guns while defunding Planned Parenthood over bogus videos. Alrighty then.
@Nick: Yep. Canada doesn’t have a gun worshipping culture. Not sure how or if it’s possible for Americans to ever let go of their obsession with guns. I hope the next Democratic President makes gun reform a priority.
lamh36
Florida cops kill black man who pulled over with car trouble — and then refuse to tell family why
dmsilev
Errr, I think you have the wrong C.J., at least according to the text of the story. C.J. Chivers is a foreign-affairs journalist for the NY Times. He did write a book called The Gun; it’s a history of one gun in particular, the AK-47, and the impact that it’s had around the world. Good book, definitely worth a read.
Joel
Open carry folks are just Basij without the Members Only jackets.
Gin & Tonic
You seem to be confusing CJ Grisham, the gun guy, with CJ Chivers, the journalist.
SiubhanDuinne
@Patricia Kayden:
If we can believe the general tone of (most of) their comments in last week’s debate, I would say that’s likely. I also hope very much, and am inclined to believe, that Barack Obama will take on gun safety as a priority issue for his Obama Presidential Library/Center/Foundation once he is out of office.
Lord Omlette
Chivers is the journalist, Grisham is the gun guy. Maybe Chivers is a gun guy too, but his profile said he’s a fisherman.
Pogonip
@Nick: Oops. Bumped your “reply” button.
Pogonip
Is Cole still in the market for a flea gun? Also, who has Thurston?
BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman:
Word.
Iowa Old Lady
I’m contemplating the idea that Biden might actually run. The thought makes me sad. What is the man thinking?
Pogonip
@BillinGlendaleCA: I used to love Killeen. There was a dime store with a horsie in front!
I was three. The dime store is probably gone and it’s rare to see a horsie at a big box. Things have gone to hell in a hand basket over the last half century.
geg6
Nope, not going there. I already know these people. Believe me, when it comes to gun culture, a Western PA has just as many small pen!ses as Texas. Remember, in 2008, Obama and Biden came here to Beaver County, first stop after the DNC. A bunch of open carry assholes made sure to be at the rally, puffing themselves up and talking shit. I no longer have an ounce of respect for any of them. I’d been getting more and more impatient with the so-called “responsible” gun owners failure to stand up to the fringe.but the last eight years have just taken my last strand of sympathy or empathy for them and their metal God.
dmsilev
@efgoldman:
‘If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell’ – Phil Sheridan.
Patricia Kayden
@lamh36: Really don’t know what’s going on in this country. It’s as if we’re back in the 50s. The cops are really wilding out.
Pogonip
@efgoldman: The teenier the better!
A serviceable flea gun could be improvised from a water pistol filled with soapy water.
Patricia Kayden
@efgoldman: Good call. Have friends and family down there but I don’t think I’d enjoy living in such a dark red state.
cokane
Thanks for the link, overall a good story but there’s some troubling unspoken assumptions in the writing.
My emphasis. Frontier America was not unsettled, and the gun played a central role in who eventually came to inhabit it. Why this mythological manifest destiny story telling continues to escape editors at quality outlets is baffling.
Pogonip
On the other hand Halloween has improved, so not all was lost.
My dad lived in rural PA as a kid. There was no trick or treating, the idea hadn’t come to the backwoods yet. So every Halloween the local kids would steal the neighbor’s gate; next day the neighbor would make a show of bafflement as to where his gate had gone and be extravagantly grateful when the kids recovered and rehung it. Every. Darn. Year. I guess that’s why my dad is indifferent to Halloween.
Aleta
This is hypothetical, but here goes. If I call a carpenter or electrician etc, and if they happen to belong to the Bring Weapons Everywhere Utopia Party, will they let me know that they are carrying? I think not, since part of their platform is ‘don’t ask permission’ and ‘never be without.’ Does the renter or home owner have the right to know ?
Or must a person who doesn’t want guns around tell workers or guests in advance ? (In which case, carrying into someone’s house will have become similar to hunters having rights unless land is posted. That is, a person can carry into your house or yard unless there are signs posted?)
When one calls for repair help, if one mentions “oh, and don’t bring weapons” ahead of time over the phone, but a worker or company believes in total right to carry, will a company refuse service?
Pappenheimer
I lived in central TX in the early 90’s, and I doubt it’s gotten any better. A local friend at that time asked me quite seriously, “When do you think the Race War will start?”
I miss Molly Ivins.
Aleta
@Pogonip: Then just mop, and presto, your floor is clean !
Gin & Tonic
Good night so far for the Toronto baseball team.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Aleta: When I did work down in Satan’s offices in Dallas, there was a sign at the entrance saying that firearms were not permitted within the premises.
Citizen_X
Yeah, I think the modern era of gun humping began when the NRA got taken over by loons at their 1977 convention. This effort had been led by a man with a very sketchy past by the name of Harlon Carter.
Porchetta
@cokane: I think the author is referring to how many choose to remember history, not making a claim about history himself.
The frontier was unsettled by people we considered to be Americans at the time. It was the gun that allowed the real Americans to push out the others. Hence, guns become the magic talsiman the author refers to in the story.
Redshift
@liberal:
Yeah, there are a bunch of connections that article makes or implies that I’d dispute, but it mostly ends up at the right place.
Keith G
@Patricia Kayden:
Nope. Some Texans want that. Some don’t. Unfortunately, many do not care about topics that are not of immediate necessity to them. I wish that would change. Right now the Democratic Party in Texas is so hapless that there is no one who is able to make the case for the better angels. Nonetheless, while the weirdos and the loudmouths get all the press, a lot of Texans (especially in urban areas) just don’t get involved. I drive by Houston’s PP clinic several time a week, but I have yet to see a gun in public that was not attached to a certified law officer or other professional. I get the vibe from the folks I know in Houston, that there is no need for open carry, however it’s just not an issue that gets much attention. I am the only Texan I know who owns a gun. Some of my friends might, but we don’t talk about it.
@efgoldman: Win/win
But speaking of urban Texans…. Last night, I was standing in a good sized line snaking it’s way into a concert venue. Four young women (18-20 ish) were canvasing the line for Bernie Sanders getting registered voters to sign a petition to get him on the primary ballot. When they got to me, I told them that I really doubted that I would vote for Bernie but I would be happy to sign and that I appreciated their work for liberal ideal in Texas.
They were most gracious.
HRC won Texas in 2008 and it probably will not be hard for her to repeat that, but Bernie’s people do have hustle.
Aleta
@BillinGlendaleCA: Satan had his offices posted ?
Anne Laurie
@dmsilev: Thanks, fixed!
(There’s another great Esquire profile of C.J. Chivers that I’ve been meaning to front-page, is my excuse.)
Cervantes
@cokane:
I agree completely.
Citizen_X
Yeah? Then how come we never hear about them asking for an end to the drug war, the prison-industrial complex, or rampant police shootings of unarmed innocents? Because they hate hippies and n*****s as much as they hate the guv’mint, that’s why.
BTW, scores of Texans think these guys are assholes, and are mocking them with “open carry demonstrations” of everything from guitars to dildos.
Matt McIrvin
@Pappenheimer:
The answer, of course, is “When you start it.”
Keith G
By the by, The White House Instagram account is now featuring some rad photos from NASA.
Redshift
The number of guns in the country Kris increasing, but the number of gun owners keeps going down. I tell my few friends who are gun owners that they should figure out what regulations they can live with, because I have to believe there will be a tipping point when there won’t be enough of them to sway elections, no matter how rabid they are.
So they can either accept reasonable and effective regulations to stop the bloodbath, or the tipping point will come and the rest of us will do it without regard to what they want.
Redshift
“keeps increasing”. Sigh.
Bob Munck
That was federal agents (ATF, FBI), Texas National Guard, Alabama National Guard, and Army Special Forces; no police.
Steve From Antioch
The open carry folks are just emblematic about how nutty and vitriolic the discussion about firearms has become in this country.
It’s not uncommon in the rural areas where I hunt to see guys with rifles slung over their shoulders hitch hiking along certain roads in hopes they can get a lift up to a trailhead or fire road so they can hunt their way back into their camp. Fine, no big deal.
But when I see somebody with a big iron on their hip in a gas station, I say WTF?
I generally don’t have a problem with carefully regulated concealed carry, but why in the world would anyone want to open carry like that? It just makes you a target if someone wants to start shooting.
David Koch
BREAKING CBC: TRUDEAU WINS IN LANDSLIDE
Justin Trudeau to become 23rd Prime Minster of Canada
Redshift
@efgoldman: I think it will come, but unfortunately I think it will take a hell of a long time. That’s why I’d rather find a way to make progress sooner.
The other tipping point factor is a grim version of the dynamic that’s been helping gay rights in recent years – the number of people who know a victim of gun violence is steadily increasing.
boatboy_srq
@BillinGlendaleCA: I’ve received job offers in Dallas, Houston, Charlotte and Charleston (SC). I tell them thanks, but no thanks: got any openings in Bristol or Manchester?
Southern Beale
Well, speaking of Texas, today a woman accidentally discharged her mother’s handgun while fishing in her purse for some paperwork. The bad news is, she hit a woman in the thigh; the good news is that they were at a clinic so ideally medical attention wasn’t too hard to obtain.
Which begs the question: if people are gonna carry everywhere, and “stuff happens,” shouldn’t these people be required to carry liability insurance to cover the inevitable damage?
cokane
@Porchetta: I think that’s a very generous reading, though you’re definitely putting out a plausible intention by the author. I can’t really cosign your interpretation though as there’s little exculpatory passages. The historical facts of warfare and frontier security are written as separate elements in the story as is.
“Guns freed us, fed us, protected us from the dangers of the frontier, and served us in war.”
“The dangers of the frontier” doesn’t really square with the Guns, Germs and Steel understanding of American history that I subscribe to.
Mike in NC
Been to Texas, where everything is bigger. That includes the nutjobs.
Pogonip
@Aleta: It’s a weapon AND a floor wax!
Pogonip
@Redshift: Is the number of owners going down, or is the number of secretive owners going up?
Southern Beale
This also happened in Texas today: a man crashed his car into a tree and as he was getting out of the car, the gun in his shorts fired. Ooops.
So, here’s the thing. You’re open carrying or even concealed-carrying but shit keeps happening and innocent people keep getting shot, not even talking about the George Zimmerman-types who don’t know when to use a gun. Just seems like a bad idea to me, all the way around. So I stay away from Texas and Florida and Georgia which have a lot of gunfail … and also, just if anyone is wondering how often this shit happens? (ALL THE TIME!) you might check the #GunFAIL hashtag on Twitter. You’ll be very enlightened.
Southern Beale
@efgoldman:
I’ve done a few drive-bys recently but I don’t have as much time for visiting my favorite blogs as I used to, unfortunately.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@lamh36:
Rikyrah posted that in one of the morning threads. The police department says the guy is a rookie. I’m wondering WTF a rookie is driving around alone in plainclothes at 3 am. Something is hinky with that guy.
Southern Beale
@Pogonip:
And a dessert topping!
PurpleGirl
@Pogonip: There is, I kid you not, Bug-a-salt. Shoot at fleas with salt.
http://www.bugasalt.com/
Steve From Antioch
@Southern Beale: from what I recall, accidental discharges have not increased in tandem with the spread of concealed carry across the country… At least as far as fatalities go.
Punchy
I eagerly await the results of the upcoming mix of college, booze, jilted boyfriends, and concealed Glocks. Coming many red-state unis near you!
BillinGlendaleCA
@Aleta: Satan’s evil, not crazy.
Pogonip
@PurpleGirl: Too cute! If it wasn’t so expensive I’d get one.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Southern Beale:
We are calling for a remark of NonyNony’s in one of the threads below to be made into a rotating tag line:
It was in response to yet another accidental shooting story, where a guy in a movie theater managed to shoot himself in the leg with the loaded gun he was carrying in his pants pocket.
sigaba
@BillinGlendaleCA: Austin is nice. To visit.
The problem is the nice people there seem to have almost an aphasia about the people around them.
sigaba
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I get why people might carry a gun, it’s crazy and counterproductive, but maybe if you feel nervous, you do it.
Then there’s the people that carry it loaded with the mag in, and you’re like, well, maybe you don’t have a place to carry the mag.
And then there’s the dude that has his round chambered and the safety off. And you realize, this dude is waiting for an Aurora Shooting, he thinks he’ll have to respond with split-second timing in order to stop a bloodbath, and if he doesn’t have a round off in 600 milliseconds he won’t Be The Hero, so it’s worth the totally reasonable risk of leaving the safety off an OWWW I JUST SHOT MY BUTTOCKS!
BillinGlendaleCA
@sigaba: I’ve never been to Austin, the kid tell me it’s nice. She lived in San Antonio for 4 years while she was in the Air Force, and doesn’t ever want to go back. I’ve been to Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio.
Mandalay
@Southern Beale:
Yep. And also automatically prosecute anyone who “accidentally” fires their gun.
If you drive recklessly and hit another car you get a ticket. We need the same approach for handling a gun recklessly – there seems to be way too much latitude right now.
mclaren
@Iowa Old Lady:
Since Joe Biden is a sociopathic authoritariation with a crazed thirst for a megalomaniacal police state, he is thinking POWER! POWER! POWER! POWER! POWER!
Source: “Joe Biden Has A Serious Drug Policy Problem: The vice president’s fingerprints are all over the failed drug war. What does that mean for his chances in 2016?” Huffington Post, 2 September 2015.
J R in WV
@efgoldman:
They don’t? And here I thought the Republican party was working for the homophobes full tilt !! Not so?
I think the Rs have a bigger budget than then NRA, especially if you count the religious nutjobs that misread Leviticus, hate gays but wear wool/linen blends, cotton poly etc. Eat shrimp and lobster, and put cheese on their roast beef sammiches.
sigaba
@BillinGlendaleCA: There’s a cool art scene but the place tends a little too… what they would call “libertarian”* for my blood. Also SXSW is a thing, a good thing.
*i would call it no craft unions and commercial artists make McDonalds wages.
mclaren
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
How about this video of a police officer who shoots himself in the leg while demonstrating gun safety to a class, and explaining “I am the only person in this room who is professional enough to be able to carry a gun.”
Ah, yes. Our law enforcement “professionals.”
mclaren
@sigaba:
I don’t get why people might carry a gun.
Statistics show that gun owners are 5 times more likely to die from suicide than from being shot by a home invader.
glory b
@Pappenheimer: Y’know, one of the fortunate things about being Black is that people like this don’t want to be friends with me, so interaction with them is minimal.
another topic: Geez MSNBC!! April Ryan isn’t the only AA female journalist! What happened to all of the other ones? Never been that impressed with her anyway.
Nia-Malika! Joi! Zerlina! Where are they??
kc
Fuck these stupid fuckers. I hope they all shot themselves in the face.
Aleta
@PurpleGirl: Waiter comes to your table with a pepper mill and a bugasalt gun to season your salad. Hot shot at a nearby table draws and fires.
RSA
@cokane:
I agree with your observations, and I’ll say that for a significant part of U.S. history, guns did not free us, for a universal definition of “us”. Quite the contrary. I haven’t read the full piece, but when the author writes, “Something very strange is happening in the American mind,” I think that one unspoken (and wrong) assumption is that the people he’s describing who love guns are representative of America. Polls say that they’re not. And personally, I find their sort of fetishism pretty creepy.
PurpleGirl
@Aleta: LOL. I love it. Many thanks for the laugh.
gogol's wife
@dmsilev:
cj chivers is wonderful
sprained my wrist can’t type
sigaba
@mclaren: It’s not justifiable on a rational basis.
In my neighborhood there’s usually a couple property crimes every day within a couple blocks of me, a violent crime once every couple weeks within a couple blocks. I still wouldn’t have a gun around, I know unless I’m looking forward to killing someone and ready to do it at any moment, it’s not going to do me much good.
But I suppose if I felt powerless and impotent, or like my town was some sort of Third World country, and I had some indignant little spark in my soul, I might feel different. If some dude mugged me in the dark corner, I would consider it just being mugged; something that happens, I’m lucky to be alive but unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such an event, to me, would hold very little meaning beyond that.
But some people would consider this a grave offense against everything they cherish and celebrate in the human condition, and if the mugger got away it would mean nothing less than the End of their little corner of Amercian civilization. So they pack heat.
This is something of what I mean by “understanding.”
Aleta
My sister takes a gun everywhere because she doesn’t trust people. But she trusts people to take their guns everywhere.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@sigaba:
I understand why specific people in specific situations might want to carry a gun — say, you have a restraining order out on your crazy ex, but no one is quite sure where s/he is. Vincent Bugliosi carried a gun while he was prosecuting the Manson Family because they weren’t quite sure if they had all of them. A few LGBT people here have said they’ve been personally threatened in the past and felt the need to have a gun nearby. Etc.
But if you have free-floating anxiety that maybe, possibly, someday you might just happen to end up in a situation where you might need a gun, you should probably seek treatment for your anxiety disorder rather than deciding that carrying a gun is the answer.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@sigaba:
IIRC, one poster here who lives in SF got mugged a couple of times, so he took Krav Maga classes. It was good exercise, plus he felt like he was a little better equipped to assess a situation and fight *if* it became necessary.
Carrying a gun because you got mugged is pretty much begging the next mugger to steal it from you or, worse, shoot you with it.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@efgoldman:
It’s cheaper to put a band-aid on a sucking chest wound than it is to fix it surgically, but it doesn’t really solve the underlying problem.
Steve from Antioch
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
http://www.pinkpistols.org/about-the-pink-pistols/
Villago Delenda Est
I don’t fear guns.
I do fear gun fetishists who worship Moloch.
mclaren
@sigaba:
Wow. You live in the wrong place.
In my neighborhood, people often forget to lock their doors when they leave home, and the kids always leave their bikes and skateboards out on the front lawn. No one ever steals them.
jonas
@Mnemosyne (tablet): If I were to decide to carry a gun, I would be after I had done a serious statistical analysis of the chances that I could be a victim (say, someone had threatened to kill me and I had good reason to believe they might try to do it) versus the chances that I would simply end up injuring myself or someone in my house with the gun. In virtually all circumstances, having a loaded gun in your house (and if it’s not loaded an locked away, then it’s not very useful at protecting you in an emergency) makes it vastly more likely you’re probably going to accidentally shoot yourself, or that someone else in the house will accidentally shoot themselves, than that you will successfully defend yourself from intruder.
Hence guns and this whole open-carry craze are a lot like lottery tickets — taxes for people who can’t do math. I don’t deny that in some (rare) circumstances it probably makes sense to protect yourself with a firearm. But the level of threat has to be pretty damn serious before it outweighs the chances you’re just going to accidentally shoot your kid when cleaning the thing.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Mnemosyne (tablet): They aren’t mutually exclusive, either. A mugger who shoots you with your gun is most likely to keep it.
sigaba
@mclaren: I live in a gentrifying warehouse district. I get the crime stay emails, we average a theft or grand theft about once a day, and a assault or ADW maybe twice a month. My dogs make such a barking stink whenever someone comes near me I can’t imagine I’m an attractive target.
sigaba
@mclaren: I live in a gentrifying warehouse district, about 2 blocks from what is known as LA’s “official Skid Row”. I get the crime stat emails, we average a theft or break-in about once a day, and a assault or ADW maybe twice a month. My dogs make such a barking stink whenever someone comes near me I can’t imagine I’m an attractive target.
mclaren
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Bingo! Exactly correct.
Studies show that the vast majority of the population is extremely unwilling to aim a gun at and shoot another human being, even under extreme circumstances. In fact, one of the biggest problems the U.S. military has (believe it or not) is training people to shoot other people. It’s incredibly hard to get people to do it.
Most people, even faced with an imminent threat to their life, even with a gun in hand, will hesitate to point the gun at the attacker and will hold off shooting until it’s too late. The plain and simple fact is that almost all of us (except for sociopaths, and except for people who have been highly trained and who have been in combat, or in law enforcement) have empathy and simply can’t bring themselves to pull the trigger when the crisis comes. So having a gun, unless you’re trained to use it by reflex, is a recipe for getting yourself killed, because the other person is likely to grab it from you and use it on you.
I strongly recommend the book ” On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society,” by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a psychologist and army ranger.
Source: On Killing, Goodreads.com.
jonas
@mclaren: Well, some people don’t really have much of a choice, depending on their circumstances. But I live in a similar area as you — most serious crime is maybe some poor, bumbling methhead stealing copper from a construction site, but lots of folks are still serious about packin’ because you never know when ISIS might show up.
It used to be that folks in rural areas — the people Bernie Sanders talks about — had a couple of guns for hunting, because that’s what you do for recreation, and sometimes food, in rural parts of America. They weren’t these totemistic penis-extenders, they were tools for living off the land, like the chainsaw that helped you bring in the winter firewood. But since the 80s, it’s become de rigueur to boast about how you have five Bushmasters and 5000 rounds of ammunition stockpiled for when the UN black helicopters come to take you to the FEMA concentration camps or whatever. People just live these lives of irrational desperation — even people who are relatively well-off in many instances. I can’t figure it out.
jonas
Crap — what sent me to moderation? f*E*m*A or “I8is”? I didn’t even use bad words!
sigaba
@mclaren: My whole point is that people don’t carry guns because of studies or statistics, it’s an emotional or moral thing.
If you tell these people that a mugger will kill them with their own gun, they’ll just tell you that anyone who lets a mugger take their gun deserves to die.
And this is sort of the deeper issue. American culture only fetishizes guns by proxy, it’s really more about violence, or specifically the idea that power over life and death should not be “reserved to Kings” and that anyone should be able to kill someone under certain circumstances. And, by extension, there are people who deserve to die.
Observe the Treyvon Martin incident. People who supported his killer Zimmerman could have just called it all a terrible accident, a misunderstanding gone too far. Or even if he had started a fight, his death was still a tragic waste. You can take his tack and still support Guns, Stand Your Ground or whatever other BS you might want to push.
But nobody defended Zimmerman on those terms: Treyvon had to be a Thug, who by implication deserved to die (indeed people went to ridiculous lengths to try to prove this very thing, in contravention of all the evidence and good sense). Nothing less would do, because violence in America can only touch those who deserve it. This is the imperative. Violence is never an accident, nor is it even a lose-lose proposition. It is a positive good, it must be.
mclaren
@sigaba:
I guess I lack the gun gene, then. To me, guns are machines designed to do only one thing: kill people. I don’t want to be anywhere near a mechanism whose only purpose is to kill people. Machines fail, and accidents happen.
The Pale Scot
@Steve From Antioch:
When I first moved to FL I went over to the home of a guy I worked with, some of his acquaintances were over, including a sketchy guy who came over to talk about a “prayer group”. I explained I was Irish RC (lapsed) and from our perspective they were all godless pagans.
Later as the guy is leaving he reaches under his car seat and pulls out an automatic pistol and says “hey Pale Scot look at this” and then drives away. The others there are talking about what a smuck the guy is and I shrug my shoulders and say in my best Jersey accent “now I know where to go if I need a pistol that’s not mine”.
The other guys look at me like that was a new concept. Your gonna leave your gun in your car that’s a quick 5 bucks.
dww44
@glory b: Agree. Ever since the NBC President (whatever his name is) took over MSNBC he’s obviously remaking the news into a CNN wannabee and even the few truly liberal hosts left now regularly feature a line-up of pundits from the right and center-right.
April Ryan was on LOD earlier and was opining about the state of Republicanism in the house. Even Charlie Cook disagreed with her. Earlier Chris Hayes had some guy from the Third Way talking about how Bernie has zero chance of being elected because Americans were NEVER EVER gonna vote for someone labelled a Socialist! He said we were a center right country on our bad days and a center left country on our good days. Course he once worked Bill Clinton’s administration
Also Nia-Malika Henderson holds forth these days on CNN, where she’s the chief political analyst.. The best one on MSNBC is Joy Reid who absolutely deserves her own show, but whose daytime show got yanked by the NBC News President of MSNBC who’s determined to turn it into an outlet that speaks and looks like NBC News. Therefore we get lots more Chuck Todd and Andrea Mitchell and Bryan Williams, along with more helpings of the journalism of Luke Russert. However, I tip my hat to Bryan Williams who doesn’t mind starting over to remake his image and reputation.
In other words the ONLY liberal outlet in cable news is being turned into a Third Way version. Now every nighttime show has 1 or more, frequently more, pundits from the right. As if we needed to be pushed right. When even Tim Pawlenty starts talking about the GOP not imploding, that it still controls the House and the Senate and will still control after the November election, I just go watch a rerun on ION.
sigaba
@mclaren: I dunno I think they’re kinda cool. I’m a sound effects editor for movies so I have to be able to identify most firearms by sight :P
I won’t keep a gun in the house, I have had problems with depression and anxiety in the past and, flat out, I have zero reason to carry one. Sometimes though I go to the Sako website, check out what they have in a .30-06, and I still remember fondly the day we rented an AK-47 for an recording shoot. Guns are fun.
Gun nuts are basically right when they say that people who want to kill will find a way. What they don’t want to talk about is why even law-abiding gun owners sorta look forward to the day they may “get” to kill someone. Why that might be a good thing, as opposed to a regrettable eventuality.
Marmot
@BillinGlendaleCA: You love Glendale, of all places. Why do you think you have an insightful idea about anywhere at all?
Mandalay
@mclaren:
And (paradoxically?) it’s increasingly hard to kill someone the closer they are to you: “Don’t come any closer or I won’t shoot”!
I wonder whether people with guns just blithely assume that they will have no problem shooting someone if the situation arises.
sigaba
@Mandalay:
Guns offer the comforting fantasy that you can kill people with the convenience of a TV remote. You point and they die, no risk to you, no mess. You don’t have to learn Krav Maga (or anything really), and you can walk away without any spiritual consequence. Violence as fast food.
The focus is on the gun because nobody wants to talk about the bullet recipients. The gun becomes a “tool” for dehumanization.
mclaren
@sigaba:
That’s interesting. I’m guessing you need to identify a firearm on sight in order to match it to its distinctive sound in foleys?
sigaba
@mclaren: I usually just use something else anyways but it’s good when you want to impress the client. Not many guns are so distinctive that an audience would pick up on it– video game guys are more anal about using the right gun. (Pretty much everybody in movies shoots a gun that ends up sounding like either an M-60 or a S&W .38.)
Also we’d never do gunfire as foley…
Greg
I lived in Dallas for two years, have been to Austin, San Antonio, Houston and Midland and I will never, ever live in Texas again. I couldn’t get out soon enough. I can assure you that it is the closest thing to a police state that we have in America. The police can do whatever they want, and nobody calls them out on it. That’s why I always laugh when they talk about how “free” Texas is and how “unregulated” it is Well, it is. If you are a large corporation. As an individual it is the least free state I have ever lived in (and I’m up to 8, in all four time zones). Small businesses also have to put up with ridiculous regulations. And to make up for the lack of state income tax, they nickel and dime you for every single permit, service and license. It is also the only state I know of where police can legally enter a bar, on private property, and write you a ticket for public intoxication, based solely on the officer’s belief that you “seem drunk”. The state is more like a third-world banana republic than an American state, and it is not because of the Hispanics that they so despise. It is because of the unfettered government and the armed police vs the armed citizens. It is because there is a one percent of extremely rich people getting richer off of the unprotected, underpaid, constantly harassed citizens. If it ever secedes, it would become Somalia or Venezuela within 6 months.
Citizen_X
@Greg: Jesus fucking Christ, people, Texas is a slightly more fucked up state in a fucked up country (one that includes, FL, OK, AZ, etc etc). That’s it. Most of that list would be true about any other state in the country.
It’s bad enough having all the right-wing Tejas uber alles types around here gushing about “It’s a whole ‘nuther country, hyuk hyuk!” We don’t need liberals helping to boost the mythology.
Alan in SF
On the one hand, it makes them feel good.
On the other hand, it kills 30,000 Americans every year.
I always thought “if it feels good, do it” was something derogatory they said about hippies.
tamiasmin
@liberal: Significant events often have more than one “beginning.” The defeat of Maryland Senator Joseph Tydings in 1970, who was targeted by the NRA after he sponsored a firearms registration bill, was surely one of those beginnings. Tydings had other issues and liabilities, but that was when the NRA began to acquire its fearsome reputation for ending the political careers of anyone who opposed unlimited gun rights.
cosima
@Nick: We are here in the UK having made a similar decision, and our #1 issue was gun control, or lack thereof, in the US. #2 the erosion of public education — by bodies at the state/city/municipal/county level engaged in GOP war on public education. As we are here on my husband’s work visa (working toward being able to get ‘unlimited leave to remain’ approval in due course), we pay the 43% tax here, and US taxes on top of that, and still consider it a fair trade for the peace of mind.
@efgoldman: When my husband worked for an oil company in Denver they were looking for people to move to TX office. No takers. Denver for Houston? Not in a million years. As you say, not enough money in the world.
Riggsveda
@liberal: The militia movement is absolutely not a new movement and certainly didn’t start with the Branch Davidian debacle. In the very early 70s I knew “sovereign citizen” types, including one who gathered up automatic weapons and buried them next to an interstate highway so he could get his hands on them when the anticipated apocalypse came down. Libertarians, gun nuts, survivalists, disgruntled war veterans, all existed well before 1993, with roots in and connected to (among other things) John Birch, the Outdoor Life and Soldier of Fortune audiences, the nuclear scare and shelter-building, and even the back to the earth movement. This shit has been building for a long, long time, and those I’ve known to be involved are without exception violent, or violence lies close to their surface. Fear might be their major motivation, but as any animal expert could tell you, creatures in fear can be far more dangerous than any others. I see these people as barely socialized and threatening, and giving them any kind of legitimacy, including indulging the fantasy that we can co-exist successfully with them over the long run, puts the rest of us in genuine danger.
Pogonip
@cosima: I’ve never lived either place, but given the Denver winters, Houston would have to be darn near hellish for me to prefer Denver!
brantl
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Yeah, but if he shot you and your dead, you don’t care any longer about him stealing it.
pseudonymous in nc
Short man with a big gun.
Johnny Coelacanth
@pseudonymous in nc: Nailed it.