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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Awful Events Unfolding in Paris

Reader Interactions

139Comments

  1. 1.

    Yutsano

    This is one of those very fluid sorts of situations where a lot of misinformation goes around the world before the truth gets its boots on.

    Much love to my ancestral homeland.

  5. 5.

    Davebo

    It’s starting to look like it’s worse than it sounds. Some reports are saying at least 26 dead and of course there’s the ongoing hostage situation.

  7. 7.

    Elizabelle

    Mon dieu.

    Turning cable on now. They live for this.

    Must be bad because the rock radio station on in background — which never does news — mentioned bad doings in Paris.

    If something like this happened just before Election Day, it might be enough to turn it. Wasn’t there some dirty OBL trick that didn’t play out well for John Kerry? Vague recall on that one…

  10. 10.

    dedc79

    @Elizabelle: This shouldn’t matter (it’s news, regardless) but one of the attacks was at a rock concert. That’s where the hostage situation is going on, apparently.

  20. 20.

    catclub

    @beltane:

    The Guardian is reporting 35 killed. Awful, awful stuff.

    The double suicide bombing in Lebanon yesterday, where over 40 were killed. Did that even get a post here?

  21. 21.

    SiubhanDuinne

    The numbers (30 dead, ~60 hostages) track with what I’m hearing from a friend/former boss, who was just posted to the Canadian Embassy in Paris a couple of months ago. He and his family are sains et saufs but obviously upset, worried, and horrified.

  26. 26.

    Arm The Homeless

    Le Pen is doing cartwheels and French Muslims are about to experience European Nationalism, real freakin’ hard.

    Maybe Trump will do a split screen with someone from UKIP and National Front. That will make for nice, glossy holograms in future history books.

  29. 29.

    Elizabelle

    @catclub: First I have heard of it (Lebanon), and have been checking the NYTimes and LATimes and WaPost sites every now and then. Maybe I missed it, but not given prominence.

    Did see, at NYTimes, that David Brooks might be embarking on a $120,000 vacay (Four Seasons hotels, with their private jet for travel). Gratis, I guess. That will keep him humble.

  34. 34.

    dedc79

    @catclub:

    The double suicide bombing in Lebanon yesterday, where over 40 were killed. Did that even get a post here?

    ISIS blowing up civilians in the Middle East is, depressingly, a daily occurrence. In fact, in that instance you had ISIS attacking a Hezbollah stronghold. So it was bombers attacking bombers. (That’s not to suggest that it was anything less than horrific, particularly with respect to murdered civilians).

    A bombing of civilians outside a stadium where the PM of France was present, and a mass shooting/hostage event at a rock concert in Paris is a much more unusual event.

    So, both horrible events, but no, I don’t think it’s fair to criticize the front pagers for blogging about one but not the other.

  36. 36.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @catclub:
    @Elizabelle:

    For all its faults, NPR has been reporting on the suicide bombings in Lebanon — quite a lot this morning on Morning Edition, and several of the top-of-the-hour headlines.

  43. 43.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Another shooting being reported. At Les Halles. France 24 is saying “credible reports of intense gunfire.”

  47. 47.

    dedc79

    @catclub: Maybe they didn’t blog about the bombing in Beirut b/c they hadn’t blogged the day before about a bombing in Syria/Iraq/Yemen/Afghanistan and didn’t want you to criticize them for valuing the lebanese over the syrians, iraqis, etc…..

    Or, to put it another way, are you freaking serious?

  48. 48.

    Heliopause

    I keep switching back and forth between cable news stations and the number goes up every time I do. 60+ now.

    The West’s reaction to this, I suspect, will be to increase repression at home and to drop more bombs and arm more dictators in the middle east. In other words, this problem will never go away but will continue to get worse for the rest of my life. Huzzah.

  49. 49.

    Mike J

    Was the football game available on American TV? Was anybody watching? Wondering what the announce crew had to say.

  51. 51.

    MomSense

    @raven:

    It is terrible. I feel so upset for them. I have some friends who are at AUB. We were all very worried until we heard they are ok. I’m just so heartbroken for all the families.

  54. 54.

    D58826

    s
    @dedc79:

    In fact, in that instance you had ISIS attacking a Hezbollah stronghold. So it was bombers attacking bombers.

    Don’t underestimate what this couple mean. Lebanon has been relatively peaceful the past 15 years but it is a tenuous peace among the Shite/Sunni/Christian communities. ISIS is trying to drag Lebanon into the cauldron of the Syria/Iraq wars. The last thing the world needs is the civil war in Lebanon to re-ignite.

  56. 56.

    the Conster

    This is not going to end well, for anyone. What, dear FSM, is the point of inflicting such suffering on innocents, especially since Dick Cheney still lives.

  57. 57.

    Marc

    And, in case there was any doubt, from the NY Times

    “A witness quoted by BFM television said he heard rounds of automatic rifle fire and someone shouting “Allahu akbar!” at The Bataclan.” (the theatre where there are now 100 hostages)

  59. 59.

    dedc79

    @D58826: I’m not trying to minimize the significance. I do think the Lebanon story was/is big news, for the very reasons you note.

    I just reject the “You can’t talk about X unless you already talked about Y” type of debate policing that catclub is trying to pull. Particularly the suggestion that it means the people here value french lives over lebanese lives.

  60. 60.

    beltane

    @Marc: Another report claimed one of the shooters yelled “This is for Syria!” (presumably in French) before opening fire.

  61. 61.

    the Conster

    from CNNFrance on twitter: Nouvelles fusillades dans le quartier des Halles, au Louvre et au centre Pompidou

  63. 63.

    beltane

    @the Conster: So that would mean a total of six attack locations so far? These last locations look as though they are meant as an attack on French identity itself. Perhaps the Cathedral of Notre Dame is next.

  65. 65.

    D58826

    Latest wingnut Outrage – Obama hasn’t called the French President yet. Obama is incompetent terrorist lover (sigh) — yes snark

  67. 67.

    trollhattan

    @D58826:
    Yup. Just this morning I was telling my kid about how Lebanon was once an endless battlezone but during her life had returned to a relatively peaceful and stable nation while the rest of the region went to hell. And oh yeah, the place St. Ronaldus pulled out of rather than get engaged in an endless Middle East ground war.

  69. 69.

    Elizabelle

    @D58826: Obama mentioned that in his brief remarks. He said he had not called President Hollande, because he expects he’s very busy right now.

    Fox News must be orgasming too. CNN is kind of straightforward.

  70. 70.

    Bill Arnold

    Morbid curiously mainly: how does a terrorist operation arm itself with Kalashnikovs in France? According to wikipedia a permit would be required.

  71. 71.

    the Conster

    Comment is in moderation, but a 7.0 earthquake has hit Japan, with a tsunami due to hit the southwest coast. FUCK.

  73. 73.

    Elizabelle

    Paris is five hours ahead of Eastern time? So it’s not yet midnight; eleven pm?

    President Hollande speaking now. Borders being closed. May be travel restrictions.

  75. 75.

    D58826

    @dedc79: I agree. Problem is there are so many bombs, shootings, wars, human misery even the Intertubes don’t have the bandwidth to cover it all. It’s a bit like the mass shooting in the US. We have gotten to the point that unless the butchers bill is in double digits it hardly gets an coverage.

    President of France is basically putting the entire country on lockdown and closing all of the borders.

  79. 79.

    jnfr

    My husband’s family is from France. His father was born in Paris and he has many family members there (and everywhere in France really). My heart is breaking to watch this unfold.

  83. 83.

    Mike in NC

    A few terrorist attacks like those in Beirut and Paris happening over here will almost guarantee the election of President Ted Cruz in 2016.

  86. 86.

    Heliopause

    @raven:

    Some obvious steps:
    1. Stop arming the apartheid regime in Israel as well as the brutal Gulf and Egyptian dictatorships to the teeth.
    2. Stop arming the radicals indirectly by arming slightly-less-radical anti-Assad groups in Syria.
    3. Stop invading and bombing various other countries, turning them into hotbeds of radicalism, and turning some of their expatriates into radicals.
    4. Have a long-term strategy for peace, stability, and self-determination in the Islamic world rather than a series of knee-jerk reactions.

  88. 88.

    dedc79

    @mai naem mobile:

    The consequences of W’s presidency never end.

    You’ve already connected the dots, huh?

    Look, I am the farthest thing from a fan of W, and I blame him for A LOT, but that is a ridiculous statement to make.

  90. 90.

    Keith G

    Interesting.

    Well, this is our new reality. This is going to be an ingredient of our ongoing story for a decade or two, longer? Part of the story of who we are will be based on how we deal with this.

  91. 91.

    Anoniminous

    Hollande says borders of France are closed, military is mobilized, travel restrictions, state of emergency.

    ETA: State of Emergency is a big deal in France.

  92. 92.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @D58826:
    @Elizabelle:

    He also said that he had talked earlier today with President Hollande. Somehow I imagine the wingnuts are going to be a lot more upset about Obama’s not calling Hollande right after the attacks than Hollande himself will be.

  94. 94.

    Marc

    @Heliopause: Or blame the deranged fanatics who did this. I happen to think that people in other countries are moral actors capable of distinguishing right from wrong.

  95. 95.

    Anne Laurie

    @Bill Arnold:

    Morbid curiously mainly: how does a terrorist operation arm itself with Kalashnikovs in France?

    From what I’ve seen, guns are being smuggled along with refugees from the Middle East — Bulgaria seems to get blamed a lot.

    Bringing guns (& explosives) into countries with strict gun-regulation codes is one of the “why these refugees are nothing but bad news” storylines that’s pretty much ignored by the American media. Even when “our” drug cartels are busted smuggling weapons across the border into Texas/California, any hint that this might be less than an optimal situation has the ammosexuals and their cult leaders in the NRA screaming, so I guess it’s too much to expect “our” media to mention what goes on in furrin climes…

  97. 97.

    goblue72

    @raven: Pulling out of the Middle East entirely, for a start. No more bombing random Middle Eastern countries, whether Syria or otherwise. Let them engage in their little civil wars over there and handle their own problems.

    Every single time we stick our nose into that part of the world, we just get blowback, quagmire and a drain on our Treasury. We get no improvement in our national security from it, and if anything, it gets worse.

    We got OBL and turned him into fish bait. We sent a loud enough message to the nutbars to stay on their side of the ocean. Leave it at that and get the heck out. And that includes closing Gitmo.

    We have enough nuclear weapons, drones, cruise missiles, tanks, bombers, submarines and space based weaponry to turn the planet into a cinder. None of these camel riding, cave dwelling nutbars is any threat to our civilization. Let them slaughter each other back to the Stone Age in whatever civil wars they want to wage.

  98. 98.

    beltane

    Reports of hostages in the theater being slaughtered one by one. Hope this report turns out to be false.

  99. 99.

    dedc79

    @Heliopause: So you’re saying that if the U.S. stops doing all these things, terrorists won’t shoot and blow up people in france? What does the US arming Israel possibly have to do with this? Incidentally, were you aware that two of the bombers in lebanon were palestinian?

  100. 100.

    Marc

    @dedc79: The blame-USA crowd never misses an opportunity, do they? I have friends there, I’m worried, and the idea that they deserve this is appalling.

  101. 101.

    Mike J

    Kenzo ‏@KenzoSuai 37m37 minutes ago
    Hostages leavin #bataclan at the moment, after police storms in

  103. 103.

    Keith G

    @Heliopause:

    4. Have a long-term strategy for peace, stability, and self-determination in the Islamic world rather than a series of knee-jerk reactions.

    And what if a fairly significant portion of that “self-determination” is influenced by a militant, religiously fundamentalist death cult that is rather well armed and shows no inclination toward the playing nice with others?

  105. 105.

    Elizabelle

    Peaceful Muslims are in my thoughts. Their lives are going to be more stressful, in coming days.

  106. 106.

    Mike J

    JeffSharlet @JeffSharlet
    In Paris. Just passed skinheads bouncing off one another with excitement.

  107. 107.

    D58826

    Golda Mier said years ago about the difficulty of dealing with someone who loves death more than life. The situation has only gotten worse. I really don’t think there is anything that can be done in any reasonable time frame. Even if there are only 100k terrorists in the entire world they can still make life miserable for the rest of us.

  108. 108.

    GregB

    Part of the disgusting strategy of the religious fanatics is to force a backlash against their own fellow believers so that they will be forced into becoming extremists along with them. They are the worst kind of humans.

  109. 109.

    Elizabelle

    WaPost: the band is safe, if not their audience.

    The wife of an American musician playing at a concert hall that came under attack in Paris tells The Washington Post that her husband, drummer Julian Dorio, and other band members of Eagles of Death Metal are safe. An unknown number of hostages continue to be held.

    “We are just holding our breath and saying prayers for everyone,” said Dorio’s wife, Emily. The pair only spoke briefly. “He called to say that he loved me and he was safe. Everyone on stage was able to get off.”

  111. 111.

    trollhattan

    @Elizabelle:

    Police have told the AFP news agency that at least 15 people were killed at the Bataclan concert hall in central Paris – only about 200m from the former office of Charlie Hebdo which was attacked by jihadists in January.

    –BBC

  116. 116.

    Keith G

    @goblue72: I wish that pulling out and telling them all to go to hell would be the magic ointment for this. It will not be. I’m not wise enough to know what the answer actually will end up being but disengagement strikes me as being, almost the worst choice. The very worst choice would be a policy of playing some version of whack a mole where we don’t think out long-term strategic alliances and policies. Where ad hoc decision-making causes us to blunder into irrational actions that don’t serve greater goals and necessary strategic interests.

    If strikes on Western cities such as this one where to continue, there would be a necessary and perhaps justified pull for an intense military reaction to this state of affairs. I’m not saying I support it, I am saying it seems to be a course that is a familiar if not also compelling.

  117. 117.

    dedc79

    @Marc: There are hostages being held right now, but maybe further deaths can all be averted if we quickly implement helopause’s 5 point plan. Absolutely disgusting.

    And that’s not to excuse our conduct, horrible things we’ve done, messes we’ve created. etc.. But come on.

  118. 118.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Parisian taxi drivers have shut off their meters and giving free rides to get people home safely. Good for them.

  119. 119.

    Elizabelle

    CNN just interviewed a French citizen who’d been in the stadium.

    He sounded just like my next door neighbor, Julien. I almost want to go over and hug them. French born couple, both naturalized citizens now. We TP’d Julien’s yard and put up red white and blue streamers late spring, when his citizenship came through.

  120. 120.

    mai naem mobile

    @dedc79: tou think Syria,ISIS and Yemen would have happened without W going to Iraq? W pulled out three big pieces of the Jenga structure that is the Middle East. The other stuff are the consequences.
    @Marc: Not blame the USA,its the blame W crowd.

  121. 121.

    Linnaeus

    I have a good friend who lives in Paris with her husband and daughter. I know that Paris is a big place, but I’m still hoping that they are okay. Awful.

  122. 122.

    max

    @mai naem mobile:

    tou think Syria,ISIS and Yemen would have happened without W going to Iraq? W pulled out three big pieces of the Jenga structure that is the Middle East. The other stuff are the consequences.

    Bad enough dealing with Afghanistan – invading Iraq was jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    I’m think I’m going to go order me a Tricolore.

    max
    [‘I wonder if the neighbors will get upset about calling them french fries?’]

  124. 124.

    goblue72

    @dedc79: I’m sorry but no. Just because some X portion of the population in some undeveloped, near medieval part of the world are nutbars, does not PRECLUDE the sane, civilized part of the world from doing or NOT doing things which exacerbate the problem. We can indeed, walk and chew gum at the same time.

    And no, it is most definitely NOT “blaming America first” to point out that there are whole host of things that the United States has done that makes the problem worse. Arming the radicals we currently like to fight the radicals we currently don’t like is one of them. Sending umpteen amounts of military aid to various actors in that part of the world (INCLUDING Israel) is another. Periodically bombing some random Middle Eastern country is another.

    They are perfectly happy killing each other over there. There’s nothing wrong with just letting them do that – especially given our long history of intervention strongly points in the direction of us just making things worse. And costing us a lot of taxpayers dollars better spent HERE in THIS country.

    There wasn’t a single unreasonable thing in Heliopause’s comment. Unless you have the same knee-jerk reaction that your average Fox New viewer does.

    The attacks on the World Trade Center on 9/11 killed roughly 3,000 people. It was the biggest terrorist attack on our soil, and an incredibly rare one. 32,000 people die each year in this country from guns. That 10 9-11s every year for the last 14 years. Or 140 9/11’s.

    So let’s stop pretending that pointing out the utter waste of blood and gold it is to continue meddling in that part of the world is some kind of “blaming America”.

  125. 125.

    Punchy

    I think you can kiss the Syrian refugee project thing goodbye. In probably every European country.

  127. 127.

    goblue72

    @Keith G: Its completely uncompelling because of its utter failure as public policy.

    Also, its a complete straw man on your point to argue that just because a proposed policy is not 100% effective, that its the wrong policy. No one is arguing that pulling out from that part of the world would be 100% effective or some “magic bullet”. Thats just stupid.

    On the other hand, it is entirely conceivable that it would avoid EXACERBATING the situation. Heck, even if it did absolutely NOTHING to make things any worse, it would be the correct strategy.

    If Strategy A costs $1 billion and results in X outcome vs Strategy B which costs $0 and results in the same outcome. Then Strategy B is the correct outcome.

    The status quo hasn’t accomplished jack shit. The burden of proof is on those wanting to continue the status quo, because so far, they’ve failed.

    Whole lotta hippie punching going on in this thread – no different than those who criticized war protestors during the run up to the Iraq War.

  128. 128.

    Heliopause

    @Keith G:

    We know from very recent history what happens when a relatively moderate Islamic party gains power peacefully and democratically from a dictator. Another brutal military dictator overthrows them, kills and imprisons thousands, and is showered with more weapons by the Nobel Peace Prize winning President of the US. And then we wring our hands and wonder why there are so many jihadis. Like I said, this is never going to get better.

  130. 130.

    mdblanche

    @Punchy: Merkel has invested enough of her political capital in making Germany the leader on the refugee project that if it ends like this I don’t think she can politically survive the fallout.

  131. 131.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Elizabelle: he put out a tape right before elections. Kerry responded with confidence and Bush looked like he wet his pants. Americans voted for Bush because you can always depend on them to be god damn idiots.

  132. 132.

    PaulW

    Part of me doesn’t want to turn on the television because all I’ll do is just sit there watching and crying for the dead and wounded and their families.

    Twitter is no help. Half the feed is full of right-wingers crowing about “oh if the movie-goers had good guys with guns among them”, Jesus Newt Gingrich you are a self-serving ASSHOLE. /rage

  134. 134.

    Keith G

    @Heliopause:

    Like I said, this is never going to get better.

    Well, never is a long time. However, I really don’t disagree with you much. I just finished my third history book of the year. All three dealt with histories from the fall of Rome until the European Renaissance.

    The last one spent very good amount of time on the history of Islam. There were periods of rising conflict followed by strident conflict followed by recuperation and reformation after whatever deadly catastrophe was caused. And then the cycle will repeat itself again and again and again.

    These forces, once started, never stopped on their own. We are in a period of rising conflict it seems. It’s bound to be a very interesting ride.

    That reading has reinforced my notion that mankind is a grubby little creature. We may have better clothing and technology, but we’re still the same grubby little creatures living with pretty much the same social dynamics.

  135. 135.

    PaulW

    @goblue72:

    That is a very short-sighted and narrow response.

    We can’t disengage with the Middle East not without disengaging from the ENTIRE WORLD. Our economy is global, reliant on overseas trade and finance, and there’s no clean way to cut ourselves off like that.

  136. 136.

    Anne Laurie

    @Punchy:

    I think you can kiss the Syrian refugee project thing goodbye. In probably every European country.

    If that wasn’t the terrorists’ immediate intention, it sure as hell will be treated as a benefit by the monsters responsible. They don’t want “their” people escaping from under their “godly” thumbs.

  137. 137.

    Tone In DC

    @Bobby Thomson:

    he put out a tape right before elections. Kerry responded with confidence and Bush looked like he wet his pants. Americans voted for Bush because you can always depend on them to be god damn idiots.

    I can only bitterly chuckle at that. Sad.

  139. 139.

    David Koch

    @Heliopause: you emoprog-firebaggers are a bunch of sick losers. blame obama first. in your disgusting mind the gunman attacked france because of obama. you and griftwald are as retarded as drudge .

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