• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

This fight is for everything.

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

Can we lighten up on the doomsday scenarios?

Come on, man.

Everyone is in a bubble, but some bubbles model reality far better than others!

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

I really should read my own blog.

Ah, the different things are different argument.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

Let’s show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

He imagines himself as The Big Bad, Who Is Universally Feared… instead of The Big Jagoff, Who Is Universally Mocked.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

I desperately hope that, yet again, I am wrong.

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Bark louder, little dog.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

You can’t love your country only when you win.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

Mobile Menu

  • Four Directions Montana
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • COVID-19 Coronavirus
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • 2024 Elections
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • Targeted Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Open Threads / Horrifying.

Horrifying.

by John Cole|  November 13, 20157:45 pm| 199 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

FacebookTweetEmail

That is all.

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Public Service Reminder: Democratic Debate Tomorrow Evening, 9pm EST
Next Post: Friday Recipe Exchange: Bourbon Beef Stew »

Reader Interactions

199Comments

  1. 1.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 13, 2015 at 7:46 pm

    The style of the attacks seems similar to those carried out in Mumbai in Nov 2008.

  2. 2.

    rikyrah

    November 13, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    Benny ✔ @bennyjohnson
    Commentary from terror expert on CNN: “The terrorists have read Snowden. They know not to use their phones. We cannot predict anything now.”
    6:36 PM – 13 Nov 2015

  3. 3.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    French fans being evac’ed from stadium singing La Marseille

    max
    [‘118 dead at Bataclan.’]

  4. 4.

    Steeplejack

    November 13, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    @John Cole:

    To answer your Twitter question, the band at the Bataclan was the Eagles of Death Metal.

  5. 5.

    rikyrah

    November 13, 2015 at 7:58 pm

    Dan Holloway
    ‏@RFCdan
    To people blaming refugees for attacks in Paris tonight. Do you not realise these are the people the refugees are trying to run away from..?

  6. 6.

    JMG

    November 13, 2015 at 7:58 pm

    Dear John: On Twitter, which I don’t use, you asked what band. It was Eagles of Death Metal.

  7. 7.

    Hungry Joe

    November 13, 2015 at 7:59 pm

    A whole new level.

    This could happen damn near anywhere — just takes people willing to do it.

    I heard that Newt has opined that if only some of the concert-goers had been armed, well, it would have been a different story. With the current crop the GOP is offering up, I’d all but forgotten just what a hateful, putrescent blob of slime he is.

  8. 8.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 7:59 pm

    @rikyrah: “The terrorists have read Snowden. They know not to use their phones. We cannot predict anything now.”

    Assholes.

    SkyNews feed

    max
    [‘…’]

  9. 9.

    Carol

    November 13, 2015 at 8:00 pm

    Are you closing the blog?

  10. 10.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 8:02 pm

    @max:

    Somehow that makes me think of the Dueling Anthems scene from Casablanca.

    Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.

    So, good for them!

  11. 11.

    Rob

    November 13, 2015 at 8:04 pm

    @Hungry Joe#7:
    I saw Gingrich’s statement on Twitter. Disgusting.

  12. 12.

    Mike J

    November 13, 2015 at 8:06 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.

    We’ll water our fields with their blood is pretty fucking defiant.

  13. 13.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 8:06 pm

    CNN now reporting at least 149 dead…from info from local Paris news sources.

  14. 14.

    Mary G

    November 13, 2015 at 8:07 pm

    Horrifying, yes.

  15. 15.

    pacem appellant

    November 13, 2015 at 8:10 pm

    Ma pauvre cité. Aux armes, en effet.

  16. 16.

    srv

    November 13, 2015 at 8:10 pm

    Tour bus brakes failed in Union Square, San Francisco. Lot of injured.

  17. 17.

    ksmiami

    November 13, 2015 at 8:11 pm

    Not sure there is a place for religion in modern life. Does more harm than good

  18. 18.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 8:11 pm

    @Mike J:

    Oui, d’accord.

  19. 19.

    A guy

    November 13, 2015 at 8:11 pm

    And to think the president at Missouri go run out because of alleged words that men couldn’t handle

  20. 20.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    @srv:

    Oh, just fuck this day.

  21. 21.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 8:17 pm

    I’m trying to find good coverage on tv, but people are using sources to say that this seems like SIS or ISIL or Al Queda, when no one has any solid leads…

    Does anyone know who did this?

  22. 22.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:17 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Don’t know what it is particularly about La Marseillaise, but there is just something wonderfully defiant about it. A bloody, melodious “fuck you” en français.

    Ate my reply. AMEN!

    120 dead at Bataclan, 40 dead elsewhere, 160 total.

    max
    [‘TK.’]

  23. 23.

    Corner Stone

    November 13, 2015 at 8:17 pm

    @rikyrah: Are you posting this ironically or unironically?

  24. 24.

    Ruckus

    November 13, 2015 at 8:19 pm

    @ksmiami:
    Looking through history and even accounting for the solace that many take from religions, that statement could have been said about many, many times/events in the history of the world. Religions are a human construct and as such they are subject to all the foibles of same.

  25. 25.

    MomSense

    November 13, 2015 at 8:23 pm

    @lamh36:

    It’s too soon.

  26. 26.

    Emma

    November 13, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: whenever I see that scene I get teary eyed. Don’t really even know why.

  27. 27.

    Elizabelle

    November 13, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: It’s Neil Young’s birthday.

    Suspect he’s not having a good one.

  28. 28.

    Amir Khalid

    November 13, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    Since it’s Open Thread:
    The server connection glitches are getting more and more frequent. They seem to be happening to me every few minutes. What’s going on over there?

  29. 29.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    @MomSense: Oh, I know.

    It’s why I was saying the on air coverage is using “sources”. I figured no one really knows, but hasn’t stopped them from speculation

  30. 30.

    Corner Stone

    November 13, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    Really not the best time for server stasis.

  31. 31.

    ksmiami

    November 13, 2015 at 8:28 pm

    @Ruckus: As I said – as of right now, religion is more of a cancer than a cure. – I won’t be surprised if France removes its Muslim populace. Ugly stuff is about to happen

  32. 32.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 13, 2015 at 8:28 pm

    @Hungry Joe: When police or military go into a building, one of the things they worry about is friendly fire. It happens. I can’t imagine the consequences of a bunch of armed civilians shooting up a theater in an attempt to stave off terrorists.

  33. 33.

    Elizabelle

    November 13, 2015 at 8:29 pm

    Me wrong. Neil Young’s birthday was yesterday. November 12.

  34. 34.

    ThresherK

    November 13, 2015 at 8:31 pm

    There’s a CONCACAF qualifier on TV, in St. Louis. US hosting St Vincent & Grenadines, 5-1 after 60 minutes.

    The crowd sounds understandably subdued.

  35. 35.

    jon

    November 13, 2015 at 8:32 pm

    @lamh36: I wish the know-it-all brigade would know basic information before saying it’s So-and-So or Whosywhatsits, because even if they’re right about this being related to Syrian refugees that doesn’t even say if it’s Sunnis or Shiites. It could be some elderly Algerian torture victims from the 1960s for all the definitive intelligence I’ve heard.

    I’ve already seen complaints about Obama’s statement, not that he didn’t use “terrorism” (he did) but that he didn’t use “Islamist” (I’m guessing he didn’t, but I don’t care since the term is pretty meaningless aside from right wing talking point criticism checklists.) Just wait a day and there will be youtube videos and more claiming credit, how great their cause is, and whatnot. Just give it a day.

  36. 36.

    EconWatcher

    November 13, 2015 at 8:32 pm

    @ksmiami:

    France is about 7.5% Muslim, so that’s not going to happen. However, only a fool would bet against the National Front now.

  37. 37.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 8:32 pm

    @Emma:

    I do too.

    Every.
    Single.
    Time.

  38. 38.

    mdblanche

    November 13, 2015 at 8:33 pm

    @Amir Khalid: http://allthingsd.com/files/2012/12/technical_difficulties.jpg

  39. 39.

    Fair Economist

    November 13, 2015 at 8:34 pm

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    I can’t imagine the consequences of a bunch of armed civilians shooting up a theater in an attempt to stave off terrorists.

    I can. Lots more dead civilians, and no dead terrorists, because they’d have come in body armor. Armed civilians don’t help the US with its endless parade of spree shootings.

  40. 40.

    Marc

    November 13, 2015 at 8:34 pm

    @ksmiami: ten percent of the population is Muslim. Not happening.

  41. 41.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:34 pm

    Did I piss in this blog’s Wheaties this morning?

    Front pages from UK & France

    max
    [‘Jeez.’]

  42. 42.

    sparrow

    November 13, 2015 at 8:35 pm

    @ksmiami: Agreed. I know this is an opinion that puts me at odds with 90% of the world, but there *is* something dangerous, or perhaps damaging, about tolerating and encouraging totally irrational beliefs. Today it’s the irrational belief that you can talk to the invisible sky fairy and he’ll make the football game go your way, tomorrow it’s 40 virgins as a reward for blowing up infidels. Yes, I know, tons of people believe irrational things without going suicidal, but it’s still a weakening of the rational mind. And there are plenty of other fonts of irrational belief abound (particularly in the tribal thinking of politics), so I don’t pick on religion only. I still wish it would quietly go away.

  43. 43.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    November 13, 2015 at 8:35 pm

    Horrifying. Pretty much sums it up, Cole.
    @ksmiami:

    Ugly stuff is about to happen

    This may be an understatement, especially given Le Pen.

  44. 44.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:36 pm

    Hollande arriving at Bataclan.

    5 attackers dead. 120 dead at Bataclan (unconfirmed), 40 dead elsewhere, plus attackers. 165.

    max
    [‘…’]

  45. 45.

    Amir Khalid

    November 13, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    The BBC’s sports editor says that as of 02:30 Paris time, the German Fußballmannschaft are still in the Stade de France. Presumably there’s a curfew on so they can’t go back to the hotel. President Hollande was called out of the France-Germany friendly because of the terrorist attacks.

  46. 46.

    goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 8:38 pm

    @EconWatcher: And there is the most likely outcome. These kind of events, framed by the villains amongst us as an “attack on the Fatherland Homeland” – are far more likely to engender fascism than anything else.

  47. 47.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:38 pm

    NYPD on heightened alert, along with port authority.

    State of emergency in France.

    Effective immediately, the cabinet said the authorities would have the power to, among other things:

    – order the temporary closure of places of public assembly like concert halls and theaters;
    – impose house arrest on anyone considered dangerous;
    – confiscate weapons;
    – conduct certain kinds of searches of premises with more leeway.
    The Paris police prefecture later announced in a Twitter posting that all public street events and demonstrations were suspended until further notice.

    max
    [‘BK.’]

  48. 48.

    Emerald

    November 13, 2015 at 8:38 pm

    Here is a link to live coverage on France 24, in English. I get it on my Roku player, with the Nowhere Channel. But here it is on the interwebz: http://www.france24.com/en/livefeed

  49. 49.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 8:40 pm

    sfj on twitter

    “They didnt shout anything, they didnt say anything, not Allahu Akbar or something like this.” — eyewitness in club.

  50. 50.

    Joel

    November 13, 2015 at 8:41 pm

    Fucking terrible, what else can I say?

  51. 51.

    mdblanche

    November 13, 2015 at 8:42 pm

    @Marc: Ten percent of the population in Poland before WWII was Jewish…

  52. 52.

    goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 8:43 pm

    @Emerald: Thanks. Interestingly, Canadian PM was on making an extremely measured statement, bilingually of course.

    Followed by the newscasters discussing tweets from Judith Miller and Newt Gingrich. With the newscasters then stating “What are they talking about? A Wild West shoot-out. Some people just take advantage of these situations. Shame on you Newt Gingrich, shame on you.”

  53. 53.

    ksmiami

    November 13, 2015 at 8:44 pm

    @Marc: Based on studying the history of Europe never say never

  54. 54.

    goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 8:46 pm

    @ksmiami: Its not 1935. Save the histrionics, please.

  55. 55.

    goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 8:47 pm

    @mdblanche: And down the rabbit hole of stupid histrionics we go!

  56. 56.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:48 pm

    @efgoldman: That makes about as much sense as Trump and the Opossum on his head deporting 11 million undocumented immigrants from the US.

    Speaking of horrible, TPM:

    A new poll finds Donald Trump surging well above his chief 2016 rival Ben Carson after week that included a Saturday Night Live appearance and a GOP debate.

    Forty-two percent of likely GOP voters supported Trump in a five-day rolling poll released Friday by Reuters/Ipsos, up from 25 percent last week. Carson was also polling around 25 percent last week and his support among GOP voters has since dipped slightly.

    Meanwhile, Sen. Marco Rubio’s support among primary voters has remained level at 10 percent, despite a debate performance that was cheered by establishment Republicans.

    Trump is also clearly leading the field among Republicans in general, claiming 34 percent of all Republicans in the sample to Carson’s 20 percent.

    The results of the five-day rolling Reuters/Ipsos poll was based on a sample of 534 Republican voters; 257 voters made up like likely primary voter sample pool.

    max
    [‘Well, GEE. It IS Friday the 13th.’]

  57. 57.

    ksmiami

    November 13, 2015 at 8:48 pm

    @efgoldman: I think you fail to see the major differences between the US and our European counterparts. Here, people blend in, contribute, strive. In the suburbs of Paris, things are not so simple. And in the long run, there is no path to full citizenship in France no matter how long you’ve lived there. At least we have birthright citizenship and it makes a huge difference.

  58. 58.

    JPL

    November 13, 2015 at 8:48 pm

    @goblue72: I was watching that.

    According to the AJC the band members heard the shots and went out behind the stage. They notified family members that they are in a police station and safe.
    The drummer is from Atlanta.

  59. 59.

    Peale

    November 13, 2015 at 8:51 pm

    @max: what. I thought Rubio was surging! I was told by good sources that Jeb needed to spend unlimited sums to destroy Rubio.

  60. 60.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:53 pm

    Charlie Pierce:

    ​There is no question that it will get worse as they move toward dawn in Paris. There is no question that it will get worse as the days turn into months and the months into years. Barbarians have laid siege to an entire European city for one of the first times since Rome fell. The body count will climb. The retribution will be swift and harsh, as will the inevitable reaction, and as will the retribution for the reaction. And the events of the day will be fed into the armored, blind triviality of the ongoing American election, and into the utterly corrupted American political system, and into the carefully cultivated timidity and faithlessness that all of these things have combined to make out of the American democracy over the past 15 years. Something awful has happened in Paris. Out of it will be born something awful in the collective mind and the collective heart and the collective soul. I wish I weren’t so sure of this, but the planet looks awfully black from up here, and it doesn’t look any different if you close your eyes.​

    Germany offer military aid to France.

    Sarkozy says the terrorists have declared war on France.

    French presidential palace clarifies: borders not closed, but imposing border controls.

    CNN official: 112 at theater, 14 restaurant, 19 bar, 4 stadium & 4 on a separate street.

    max
    [‘All known terrorist neutralized.’]

  61. 61.

    mtiffany

    November 13, 2015 at 8:53 pm

    @lamh36:

    I’m trying to find good coverage on tv,

    live stream from France 24 (English) just the facts, no supposition, no agendas
    http://www.france24.com/en/20151114-live-blog-string-deadly-shootings-rock-paris

  62. 62.

    ksmiami

    November 13, 2015 at 8:53 pm

    @goblue72: I wouldn’t call Le Pen’s movement histrionics. And I’m not talking 1935, but a shift rightward in Europe that has large scale ramifications.

  63. 63.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:54 pm

    @Peale: what. I thought Rubio was surging! I was told by good sources that Jeb needed to spend unlimited sums to destroy Rubio.

    He IS surging, in front of Jeb who is sinking, so that nets out as… not much.

    max
    [‘But he is accelerating away from Jeb, in an Einsteinian sense.’]

  64. 64.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 8:55 pm

    @jricole
    Dear MSM CT “experts” this was not a ‘brilliantly executed’ ‘military’ operation; it was murder of soft targets who don’t shoot back

  65. 65.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 8:56 pm

    Live24 is great, SkyNews (also good) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg.

    max
    [‘SkyNews may be a bit ahead.’]

  66. 66.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 8:56 pm

    @JPL:

    The drummer is from Atlanta.

    Did not know that. One way or another, there’s always a local connection to international stories, isn’t there?

  67. 67.

    Baud

    November 13, 2015 at 8:57 pm

    Quelle horreur.

  68. 68.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 8:58 pm

    @TPM 2m2 minutes ago
    The Paris prosecutor said the death toll could be more than 120 at 6 sites.

  69. 69.

    beltane

    November 13, 2015 at 8:59 pm

    @Baud: Now more than ever, our country needs Baud as our leader.

  70. 70.

    mtiffany

    November 13, 2015 at 9:01 pm

    @lamh36:

    The Paris prosecutor said the death toll could be more than 120 at 6 sites.

    France24 reporting ‘at least 120 dead’ at Bataclan alone, including the 26 others killed in shootings around Paris and the 11 in a cafe.

    http://www.france24.com/fr/20151113-attaques-a-paris-suivez-situation-direct

  71. 71.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:01 pm

    AP: Raw: Security Forces Move In On Paris Theater (actually, a series of clips).

    max
    [‘No one can make up their mind on how many killed.’]

  72. 72.

    beltane

    November 13, 2015 at 9:02 pm

    @ksmiami: Birthright citizenship does make a difference. If you are born here you will never be a foreigner under the law. Why the Republicans want to create a class of native born non-Americans is beyond me.

  73. 73.

    redshirt

    November 13, 2015 at 9:02 pm

    Sorry to sound cold, but 120 dead by gun violence is what, a week in America? A couple of days?

    And yet this will change many things, as nothing changes in America.

  74. 74.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:03 pm

    John Kerry Verified account ‏@JohnKerry
    Je me rejoins à @POTUS en condamnant les attentats terroristes à Paris. C’est une aggression contre l’humanité et les gens épris de liberté.

    max
    [‘Because fuck Swift Boaters.’]

  75. 75.

    ksmiami

    November 13, 2015 at 9:04 pm

    @beltane: Exactly – it’s one of the keys to our nation’s success. And one of the reasons why Europe has huge integration issues.

  76. 76.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 9:04 pm

    Ok, now watching Maddow.

    She’s good at this type of just stating the facts types coverage.

    I was wondering why I kept seeing a video of a soccer match but apparently, you can actually hear one of the bombs exploding at the stadium

    Damn…

  77. 77.

    Baud

    November 13, 2015 at 9:04 pm

    @beltane:

    Thank you, but I have complete confidence in Obama. We just need to make sure we step up when it comes time to choose his successor.

  78. 78.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:07 pm

    Jasmine demonstrates the Bataclan in horror: “I saw many dead bodies around me” (en francaise)

    Survivor of Bataclan massacre: “To survive I crawled under a body then I went to a restroom. I was shot in the ankle. I have never seen so many dead people around me in my life. I am traumatized.”

    max
    [‘News in slow crawl.’]

  79. 79.

    mai naem mobile

    November 13, 2015 at 9:09 pm

    @srv: No doubt its Obamas fault that he didn’t get those brakes fixed.

  80. 80.

    Elizabelle

    November 13, 2015 at 9:13 pm

    Watching John Carpenter’s “They Live” on Encore. As good a programming choice after tonight’s sad events as any.

    Carpenter described it as his “primal scream” at living in the Reagan years.

  81. 81.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 9:14 pm

    Rachel pointing out that despite online reports, not all gunmen have been “neutralized” there may be more at large…so this isn’t over.

    cnnbrk
    BMFTV: French officials say gunmen are still at large in Paris attacks. Five have been “neutralized.”

  82. 82.

    magurakurin

    November 13, 2015 at 9:15 pm

    @Emma:

    I do too. It is one of the greatest scenes of film propaganda ever. It is very powerful. It is also just a great movie scene. One thing I like about it is the fact that it is actually Rick that instigates the trouble, not Victor Lasslo. Victor tells the band to play, but the conductor looks up at Rick, and Rick nods okay. It is clear that if Rick had said no, they never would have played the song. A great scene in a great movie.

  83. 83.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 9:15 pm

    @nytimes
    We are providing unlimited access to our website and mobile apps for coverage of Paris attacks. Follow live updates:

  84. 84.

    mdblanche

    November 13, 2015 at 9:17 pm

    Maddow just reporting one of the members of the American band playing at Bataclan was killed.

  85. 85.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 9:17 pm

    @jaketapper 5m5 minutes ago
    Americans in France needing assistance -011-202-501-4444

    people in US worried about family in France – State Dept Hotline – 888-407-4747

  86. 86.

    Ruckus

    November 13, 2015 at 9:19 pm

    @max:
    It might have been me. But it sounds like maybe several of us. I would like to know if it’s me, what I did to fuck it up so badly. Possibly I might stop doing that.

  87. 87.

    D58826

    November 13, 2015 at 9:20 pm

    @max: Somebody made the same comment about AL Quida after 9/11. Th NY Times had published an article about our ability to intercept cell phone communications. Somehow I think most terrorists have figured out to keep their communications secure. They don’t need Snowdon to tell them.

  88. 88.

    raven

    November 13, 2015 at 9:22 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: He’s from Athens. Julian Dorio

    “Julian started drumming at the age of 6, as an original member of the Flying Dorios. The band included his father and his older brother, Michael Dorio of Trances Arc. A high school graduate of The Westminster Schools in Atlanta and a college graduate of the University of Georgia, Dorio currently resides in Georgia. The town of Athens has been home for both him and Gispert, the band’s lead singer, since they were in school there. “

  89. 89.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 9:24 pm

    @magurakurin:

    It is one of the greatest scenes of film propaganda ever.

    It is that.

    It is also just a great movie scene.

    Yes, which is why it doesn’t necessarily or immediately come across as propaganda.

  90. 90.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:24 pm

    @lamh36: Rachel pointing out that despite online reports, not all gunmen have been “neutralized” there may be more at large…so this isn’t over.

    Yeah – they say ‘accomplices’ – not necessarily more gunmen.

    @Ruckus: It might have been me. But it sounds like maybe several of us. I would like to know if it’s me, what I did to fuck it up so badly. Possibly I might stop doing that.

    I think it’s the PHP barf on the server, but it’s totally unpredictable. It does seems to happen often with higher load.

    max
    [‘Is two quotes OK?’]

  91. 91.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 9:25 pm

    @raven:

    Forgive my ignorance, I never even heard of this band until a few hours ago. Doesn’t diminish my horror or sadness.

  92. 92.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:27 pm

    Revised death toll from Le Figaro: 210 total.

    BILD: French police guarding Notre Dame.

    max
    [‘Don’t hit me server, I didn’t do it!’]

  93. 93.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    November 13, 2015 at 9:27 pm

    @Ruckus: I believe it was said earlier that there’s something up with the PHP on the server and that correcting it is the hands of the hosting company. Sometimes ya just gotta sit and wait on other people.

  94. 94.

    raven

    November 13, 2015 at 9:28 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: It’s where he is from.

  95. 95.

    Frankensteinbeck

    November 13, 2015 at 9:30 pm

    @rikyrah:
    Christ. I am no fan of Snowden, but CNN, you should be ashamed of yourselves both for the stupidity and the dickishness of saying that on national news.

  96. 96.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:31 pm

    Police Prefect Michelle Caddow (sp?): Four attackers in Bataclan, sprayed machine gun fire at cafes then charged into Bataclan, took hostages. When police counter-attack came, attackers blew themselves up with suicide belts, taking four more with them. Addition separate attack in second location, possibly mobile. Police are looking for any possible accomplices, besides 5 attackers already killed. (They’re looking for helpers.)

    max
    [‘TK.’]

  97. 97.

    D58826

    November 13, 2015 at 9:31 pm

    @max: Listening to some of the analysis on MSNBC and it is very depressing. Issues such as the large number of unemployed young people, a Muslim population that isn’t well integrated into the local society, the rise of anti-Semitism, the rise of the hard right nativist political parties, whither the EU can survive,and the huge flow of refugees from failed states in the middle east and Africa. There are so many threads running thru these events that it may well be impossible to address them. American politicians, esp the GOP, keep talking about strong American leadership but they never get into details about what to do (other than bombing somebody). Depressing

  98. 98.

    gogol's wife

    November 13, 2015 at 9:31 pm

    John Cole’s top tweet there is a response to a particularly vile tweet from Judith Miller. Why is she showing her face in public?

  99. 99.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 9:34 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: CNN has no shame in pumping out questionable BS in attempts to pander to an audience.

  100. 100.

    raven

    November 13, 2015 at 9:36 pm

    @D58826: Most analysis of 120 people being killed will be depressing don’t you think?

  101. 101.

    Frankensteinbeck

    November 13, 2015 at 9:36 pm

    @D58826:

    American politicians, esp the GOP, keep talking about strong American leadership

    This has very, very little to do with us. Iraq maybe stirred things up a little more, but France has its own issues with Islam, and has for a long time. America is not the center of the world, source of all things.

  102. 102.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 9:40 pm

    The Associated Press ‏@AP 1m1 minute ago
    BREAKING: Head of Paris police says all attackers are believed to be dead.

  103. 103.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 13, 2015 at 9:40 pm

    @ksmiami: My thought is that people will kill each other over land or money or imperialism or even perceived or real lack of respect, racism, and so on. But there’s something about religion, I think because it latches onto this childhood programming (god = daddy, and so on), that makes people get even more irrational and locked into their positions and likely to see any slight as a loss of face worth dying and killing for. There is no provocation like desecration of a sacred object, space, or idea.

    I don’t even think all religions are this way but I suspect they all get this way, as parents teach their kid their religion and it settles in the next generation’s brain along with all the feelings they had about their parents when they were three and their parents were invincible and omniscient and their sole means of support. Name a religion supposed to be all cool and zen and shit and you can find fundies of it.

    Maybe it’s not religion itself but this whole process of teaching religious doctrine to children that causes all the problems.

    But the effect is real. It really does make people act even stupider than whatever underlying casus belli was already driving them to act.

  104. 104.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    @raven:

    Right, I get that. I am just not very well informed about bands, musicians, etc. outside the opera-symphonic world.

  105. 105.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: Outside of GOP fantasies, I think France does have an attitude towards citizenship, and how to accommodate, or not accommodate, a diverse multicultural population that resembles the GOP ideal, I think more so than other European governments. So, I wonder how that plays into repeated outbursts of violence in France. Besides terrorist attacks, were weeks of riots in poorer Paris suburbs some time ago.

    I hear a lot of iffy speculation on news on it being by ISIS or an affiliated group, or has something to do with Syria.

    We’ll hear a lot of knee jerk BS from US reactionaries.

  106. 106.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:43 pm

    @D58826: Issues such as the large number of unemployed young people, a Muslim population that isn’t well integrated into the local society, the rise of anti-Semitism, the rise of the hard right nativist political parties, whither the EU can survive,and the huge flow of refugees from failed states in the middle east and Africa.

    If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis.

    Separately, it would help A LOT, if fucking Bibi would quit insisting on pushing settlements and trying to claim the Temple Mount.

    If we did those two things, we could maybe focus on hammering Daesh.

    max
    [‘Assholes. Elite assholes are fucking everything up.’]

  107. 107.

    liberal

    November 13, 2015 at 9:46 pm

    @beltane:

    Birthright citizenship does make a difference.

    Damn straight.

    There are many things screwed up about the good ole US of A, but this is one thing where we’ve been way ahead of much of the rest of the world, including much (most?) of Europe.

    This crap where you can be N-th generation born in country X, yet not a citizen of X, whereas someone with a “blood” connection can easily become a citizen, is flat-out naseating.

  108. 108.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 9:46 pm

    @max:

    ” If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis. ”

    That is a good point, and I’ve heard that aspect of rise of right wing in Europe discussed in our corporate media. Probably for obvious reasons. Why not talk about scary foreign people?

  109. 109.

    mtiffany

    November 13, 2015 at 9:47 pm

    @max: Not trying to get into a pissing match with you but LeFigaro is reporting 126 dead, approx. 210 wounded — 83 critical, 132 ‘urgent’

    and France24 still reporting ‘at least 120 dead’

    all numbers are of course being reported ‘provisional’ (preliminary)

  110. 110.

    Peale

    November 13, 2015 at 9:48 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: but the U.S. Hasn’t done enough to ensure that terrorists don’t infiltrate and attack France.

    I guess that’s the argument.

  111. 111.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 13, 2015 at 9:53 pm

    @rikyrah: The assumption that the perpetrators are stupid enough to use their phones, even without Snowdon’s revelations, makes this terrorist “expert” suspect.

    Osama bin Laden didn’t use phones or other modern communications technology. He used couriers. The most secure means there is. It’s slow, but it’s by far the most secure.

  112. 112.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 13, 2015 at 9:53 pm

    @gogol’s wife: Some of the responses to her Tweet are outstanding. I wonder if she ever even looks at them?

  113. 113.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 9:54 pm

    @liberal: My understanding is that birthright citizenship is mostly an Anglo-Saxon and Western Hemisphere thing.

    Wikipedia has a list of countries that have it in varying degrees, under what I think is the Latin name for it.

    Jus soli
    Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

  114. 114.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:55 pm

    @jl: I hear a lot of iffy speculation on news on it being by ISIS or an affiliated group, or has something to do with Syria.

    Reportedly the Bataclan attackers screamed about Syria and Iraq when attacking. Not clear if they’re Daesh or some other (local?) assholes.

    We’ll hear a lot of knee jerk BS from US reactionaries.

    As Paris carnage unfolds, conservatives lash out at Obama, immigrants and college students

    max
    [‘…’]

  115. 115.

    Villago Delenda Est

    November 13, 2015 at 9:55 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: If the prospects for just continued survival were not so bleak, religion wouldn’t be able alone to motivate like this for most people.

  116. 116.

    Gin & Tonic

    November 13, 2015 at 9:55 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: I’ve always had the suspicion that those who appear on TV as “terrorism experts” are the ones who couldn’t handle it in the real operational world.

  117. 117.

    Ruckus

    November 13, 2015 at 9:57 pm

    Now it’s eating my comments. ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  118. 118.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 9:57 pm

    @mtiffany: Not trying to get into a pissing match with you but LeFigaro is reporting 126 dead, approx. 210 wounded — 83 critical, 132 ‘urgent’

    That’s what I saw – victim of a misworded report. Sorry.

    max
    [‘Meanwhile, on imgur.‘]

  119. 119.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Forgive my ignorance, I never even heard of this band until a few hours ago. Doesn’t diminish my horror or sadness.

    The band is mostly a side project for more established musicians. One of the co-founders is Josh Homme who is lead singer for Queens of the Stone Age and Them Crooked Vultures. As a side project they mostly surface in the down time for the members, put out an album, tour, and then vanish for a number of years.

    QaSA is a solid band (multiple grammy noms), and Eagles gets a decent following from that audience. Both bands are from the desert here in SoCal and basically developed as part of the Coachella scene.

  120. 120.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 13, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    @ksmiami:

    And in the long run, there is no path to full citizenship in France no matter how long you’ve lived there. At least we have birthright citizenship and it makes a huge difference.

    Actually France does have birthright citizenship. It just takes two generations. One needs to be born in France and have at least one parent who was born in France. It is not as simple as our system, but there is a path to citizenship for immigrant families.

  121. 121.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    @max:

    ” As Paris carnage unfolds, conservatives lash out at Obama, immigrants and college students ”

    I’m definitely skipping the next GOP pres debate.
    Probably, overpaid DFH philosophers, jealous of all the buck welders are pulling down, are to blame.

  122. 122.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 10:00 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I’ve always had the suspicion that those who appear on TV as “terrorism experts” are the ones who couldn’t handle it in the real operational world.

    Yep. Just as anyone who open-carries would sooner piss their pants than return fire in a real shooting.

  123. 123.

    raven

    November 13, 2015 at 10:01 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: When Algeria gained independence the French took the pensions from the Algerian vets living there.

  124. 124.

    raven

    November 13, 2015 at 10:02 pm

    @? Martin: It is interesting that Dorio is their current drummer.

  125. 125.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 10:03 pm

    @Ruckus: Now it’s eating my comments. ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It’s a bitch, innit? I lost four good ones a couple of hours ago. (So I reverted to copying the text before hitting post.)

    I feel your pain.

    max
    [‘Sikhs step up. Also, The Sikhs Are A Nation!’]

  126. 126.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 10:03 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: A few generations might be too long, though.
    Here is summary from the Wikipedia Jus Soli article link above:

    ” Children born in France (including overseas territories) to at least one foreign parent who is also born in France automatically acquire French citizenship at birth. Children born to foreign parents may request citizenship depending on their age and length of residence (see French nationality law).”

  127. 127.

    mtiffany

    November 13, 2015 at 10:04 pm

    @max: I need to ask: are you seeing the French media assigning blame or resonsibility or motivation to any particular group, other than generic terrorism? Because everything I’m reading and hearing comes down to ‘it’s obviously terrorism, and we’re all aware of what’s going on in the news, but until we know for certain, we’re not jumping to any conclusions.”

  128. 128.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 10:05 pm

    @jl:
    I meant to type”

    That is a good point, and I’ve NEVER heard that aspect of rise of right wing in Europe discussed in our corporate media. Probably for obvious reasons. Why not talk about scary foreign people?

  129. 129.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 13, 2015 at 10:06 pm

    @raven: And?

  130. 130.

    liberal

    November 13, 2015 at 10:07 pm

    @jl:
    Yeah, that’s the Latin name. You’re right, it seems like a Western Hemisphere name.

    My eyes might be failing me, but I don’t see a single European state in the “unrestricted” list in that Wikipedia article. Fucked. Up.

    Interesting, though: Pakistan?

  131. 131.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 13, 2015 at 10:08 pm

    @max: Sikhs and the Marathas were the two groups that fought against the encroaching British Empire until the very end. Also too, the Mughal Empire before that.

  132. 132.

    liberal

    November 13, 2015 at 10:08 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It is not as simple as our system, but there is a path to citizenship for immigrant families.

    Still fucked up. If you’re born somewhere, you should automatically be a citizen. Period.

  133. 133.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    @mtiffany: I think safe to say it is terrorism. Not safe to say exactly who sponsored it or did it, Certainly not safe to blame it on race problems in the US, US college students’ response to said problems, Obama, or supposed liberal PC run amok, but I hope only Fox News is peddling that crap.

    I am listening to CBS news and it seems at times to assume that radical fundy Islamicists did it, but not going further than that.

  134. 134.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 13, 2015 at 10:10 pm

    Wasn’t Syria a part of the French Empire? Did they part on good terms?

  135. 135.

    liberal

    November 13, 2015 at 10:11 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    I could be mistaken, but I thought that France carved Lebanon out of Syria. Have a more-Christian enclave or something.

  136. 136.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 13, 2015 at 10:16 pm

    @liberal: I agree witht eh concept of birthright citizenship, but the people up thread talking about there being no way to become a citizen are wrong. the problems in les banlieues are not due to the lack of a path to citizenship. They are due to poverty and poverty related crime.

  137. 137.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 10:16 pm

    @ninatypewriter 1h1 hour ago
    The world is reporting on horrendous GOP tweets about #ParisAttacks. They’re reading them on @France24_en right now, saying “Shame on you.”

  138. 138.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 10:16 pm

    @max:

    If EU would quit insisting on fucking the economy for some right-wing hard currency bullshit, that would help A LOT. Particularly with unemployment. Particularly with the Mahgrebis.

    Separately, it would help A LOT, if fucking Bibi would quit insisting on pushing settlements and trying to claim the Temple Mount.

    I don’t think either of these necessarily are related to this.

    I think the two larger trends were the extended drought signficantly increasing food scarcity and costs, and western nations finally turning against our cold war dictators, allowing for the colonial national borders to be challenged. That has been happening from Tunisia to Pakistan.

    Basically, the middle east has been propped up as an artificial construct by western nations for decades. Once the cold war ended, our tolerance to constantly dump strategic money and influence into these nations faded. Democracy is a noble goal, but self-governance carries a lot of challenges, particularly when you have centuries-old disagreements within your national borders.

  139. 139.

    EZSmirkzz

    November 13, 2015 at 10:16 pm

    The best way to battle the darkness, whether domestic or foreign, is to leave your light on.

    Of all people, I could rail against the neo-cons inability to consider the consequences of their policy and the conservative hate mongers for their utter lack of human decency, but it serves me no good, and does them no ill.

    Keep your thoughts, ( and prayers, if you offer them,) on the victims, not on yourself or the analysts, or the afore mentioned groups. Perhaps you may embarrass the Christians at home by loving your neighbors as yourself. Perhaps you can shame them by loving your enemies as well, although I think I’m asking too much. Try it, you’ll like it.

  140. 140.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 10:20 pm

    @liberal: FYWP ate my comments. Lebanon long a scene of vicious religious sectarian violence, and that drew in French involvement after some massacres.. France got seriously involved in 1920s in Lebanon and Syria after Ottoman Empire collapsed in WWI. I don’t think same thing as colonizing North Africa.

    Edit: I don’t think Lebanon was enough of a thing to be carved up. Awful mess of viciously fighting religious sects for a long time.

  141. 141.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 10:20 pm

    @jl: I’m definitely skipping the next GOP pres debate.

    Haven’t seen one yet, no intention of starting. Leave it to the people GETTING PAID UNLIKE ME to listen to that horseshit.

    Probably, overpaid DFH philosophers, jealous of all the buck welders are pulling down, are to blame.

    This is fucking year FIVE of the fucking thing with the fucking welders. The first time I heard it was when they closed the welding program at distance CC operation at a local high school in Erie, PA. Supposedly this was stupid. And it was stupid: due to austerity!

    At any rate, I researched the thing and it turned out there was in article in the local paper about the shortage of welders. The shipbuilding industry in Erie had collapsed, so experience welders were scarce on the ground, so this dude decided to restart some shipbuilding in Erie and couldn’t find welders. He eventually he got some from Mobile because shipbuilding in AL was in the toilet.

    There was this other asshole who was bitching about not being able to hire welders with a year’s experience at 16-18 an hour and he was complaining it was because of unemployment insurance. (Also, he drug-tested.) He said people were lazy and living off the government.

    The CC local welder program in the high school had shut down because of austerity AND because they were building a nice new HS for the rich kids in the rich kids suburb with a nice football stadium and stuff…for 100 million.

    The welder meme kept going and going and going, and even Thomas Friedman joined into the fun. But now they think welders get paid more than philosophy majors, even though they do not.

    In sum: long-lived bullshit.

    max
    [‘Also, Obama is a muslim, have you heard?’]

  142. 142.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 10:23 pm

    @mtiffany: are you seeing the French media assigning blame or resonsibility or motivation to any particular group, other than generic terrorism? Because everything I’m reading and hearing comes down to ‘it’s obviously terrorism, and we’re all aware of what’s going on in the news, but until we know for certain, we’re not jumping to any conclusions.”

    Non. Just reporting what the attackers screamed.

    max
    [‘{shrug}’]

  143. 143.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 10:23 pm

    @raven: Not really. Josh is a really, really collaborative guy and I get the sense that Jesse Hughes is as well. Dave Grohl drummed for QoSA for a while, after all.

  144. 144.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    @TPM 20s20 seconds ago
    Hillary Clinton: U.S. must stand w/ France “to wage and win the struggle against terrorism and violent extremism.” http://bit.ly/1MOfb4g

  145. 145.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    @TPM 20s20 seconds ago
    Hillary Clinton: U.S. must stand w/ France “to wage and win the struggle against terrorism and violent extremism.”

  146. 146.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 13, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    WP eated my comment or else I angered God Mode or God Median. Anyway, France ended up controlling Syria after WWI just like Britain ended up with Palestine. So in a way the after effects of WWI are still with us

  147. 147.

    redshirt

    November 13, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    @? Martin: OMG I love QotSA – I’ve met Josh. I saw him play in the band that was the genesis of QofSA – Kyuss.

    If you’ve never heard Kyuss, check them. Hard and sloggy.

    Now this hits home.

  148. 148.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 10:28 pm

    @max: The first two GOP debates were more than enough for me. Following Dem debates easier on my psyche, and will do that now that they are going.

    But, I couldn’t help dipping into clips of news stories on the train wrecks. More lies and BS than can be counted. Many have not even been covered, because too many moles to whack.

    I did catch Paul saying Dem states have more inequality than GOP states, which is BS.
    Also, the crazy philosopher bashing. Obama introduces major program to push public community college and idiot Rubio complains that not enough support of vocational education. Shit, that is half of what public community colleges do, and cheaper and far better than the private for-profit scams that Rubio and the GOPers would push (at least if those scams can be saved from bankruptcy fast enough).

  149. 149.

    lamh36

    November 13, 2015 at 10:31 pm

    Asshole says what? Ugh, I never really liked Rob Lowe…even before he had sex with a teenager (I know age of consent in GA was 16 but stilll…ugh). Sometimes there is NO shame in being SILENT Rob.

    @Variety 41s42 seconds ago
    Rob Lowe: “Oh, NOW France closes its borders.”

  150. 150.

    max

    November 13, 2015 at 10:33 pm

    @? Martin: I don’t think either of these necessarily are related to this.

    I think they are. French unemployment is very very high and French Muslim unemployment is higher still. If non-Muslim French were employed at normal rates, French Muslim unemployment would be much lower and you would have fewer people watching lots of news TV, particularly Arabic TV which involves lots of reporting on the situation in Israel. (Which is notably, NOT well reported in the US.)

    I think the two larger trends were the extended drought signficantly increasing food scarcity and costs, and western nations finally turning against our cold war dictators, allowing for the colonial national borders to be challenged. That has been happening from Tunisia to Pakistan.

    That’s from outside of France, yes.

    Basically, the middle east has been propped up as an artificial construct by western nations for decades. Once the cold war ended, our tolerance to constantly dump strategic money and influence into these nations faded. Democracy is a noble goal, but self-governance carries a lot of challenges, particularly when you have centuries-old disagreements within your national borders.

    Absolutely. No disagreement from me. The immediate problem is 1) French unemployment, 2) Israel (in particular the settler war that has been going since the summer), and the Daesh situation is NOT helping.

    max
    [‘The attackers seem to have spoken fluent francais.’]

  151. 151.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 10:33 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: Checking wikipedia to refresh my memory. France did get itself involved in Lebanon in mid 1800s, but due to European intervention after Ottomans had trouble controlling, or pretended to have trouble controlling, massacres of Christian during a series of religious civil wars in the Lebanon. Anyway, I don’t think the same as French colonization of North Africa.

    Règlement Organique (Mount Lebanon)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A8glement_Organique_(Mount_Lebanon)

  152. 152.

    mtiffany

    November 13, 2015 at 10:35 pm

    @max: Thank you. I’m glad I wasn’t just imagining the US media being irresponsible.

  153. 153.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 10:36 pm

    @redshirt: Josh wasn’t there. He’s not touring with the band since I think QoSA is working on a new album.

    I like Kyuss as well. And I wouldn’t mind another Them Crooked Vultures album either. Uneven, but New Fang makes up for a lot – just brilliant stuff by Grohl.

  154. 154.

    redshirt

    November 13, 2015 at 10:38 pm

    @? Martin: You’ve got good musical tastes!

  155. 155.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 13, 2015 at 10:38 pm

    @ksmiami:

    At least we have birthright citizenship and it makes a huge difference.

    For now.

  156. 156.

    Darkrose

    November 13, 2015 at 10:43 pm

    @gogol’s wife: http://crooksandliars.com/2015/11/judy-millers-despicable-paris-attack-tweet

    Unfuckingbelievable. The idea that she came up with that as the news from Paris was unfolding…what a ghoul.

  157. 157.

    chopper

    November 13, 2015 at 10:44 pm

    @? Martin:

    QotSA is pretty tight. EoDM isn’t bad either. seems surreal that all this happened at one of their shows.

  158. 158.

    chopper

    November 13, 2015 at 10:45 pm

    @? Martin:

    grohl drummed and toured on Songs for the Deaf which is an insanely good record. just crazy good.

  159. 159.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    Accidentally had CNN on (Sirius radio — audio only).

    Heard Anderson Cooper ask his guest “So, is this a wake-up call for the United States?”

    Thought to myself “What the everloving fuck, Anderson!?”

    Switched channel over to Rachel.

  160. 160.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    @jl:

    I did catch Paul saying Dem states have more inequality than GOP states, which is BS.

    For the most part that’s true, if you rank states by income Gini coefficient, simply because the Dem states are richer and have more urban areas in them, and really really rich people are more likely to live there. So general American wealth inequality is reflected by them, and there’s not really a lot a state can do about that, given, say, the practical political limits on state income tax. The three highest are New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts.

    BUT. There are some states near the top in income inequality that are also quite poor (and red). Louisiana has a Gini as high as Massachusetts, and Alabama and Mississippi are not far behind. Which is horrifying when you consider the implications for the people at the bottom.

    A lot of this is probably down to race. The lowest-inequality states tend to be very white and more sparsely populated, which are things that contribute to Republican politics. But some of them are states that now tend to vote Democratic in national elections (Iowa, NH, Wisconsin). And another low-Gini one is Hawaii, a very special case.

  161. 161.

    dedc79

    November 13, 2015 at 10:51 pm

    @max: maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but where do the people who committed this atrocity fit in your take on the “immediate problem” – above or below israel?

    I have trouble accepting that a terrorist attack in France on french civilians can or should be attributed to the situation in Israel. And what makes you think you know why they did this?

  162. 162.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 10:53 pm

    @jl:

    I did catch Paul saying Dem states have more inequality than GOP states, which is BS.

    That’s probably true, actually. In general, high-end jobs in red states tend to be pretty shit. Lots of relatively low-wage non-union jobs and the big salaries tend to be pulled down by pro sports (assuming your state has one) and the occasional CEO. Aside from Kansas who has David Koch and Nebraska with Warren Buffet, most red states don’t have really high earners. CA, NY, and IL have over half of the nations billionaires. In the top 10 states with the most billionaires, only Texas is a clear red state (Florida and Ohio are purple).

    But the main reason why blue states have so much accumulated wealth is that rich people generally don’t want to live in red states. Similarly, income inequality is pretty low in Afghanistan.

  163. 163.

    Bobby Thomson

    November 13, 2015 at 10:59 pm

    @goblue72: Oh, fuck off, dickhead.

  164. 164.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 11:00 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:
    @? Martin:

    I don’t agree with your characterizations. I’m basing my charge of BS against Rand Paul based on:

    THE INCREASINGLY UNEQUAL STATES OF AMERICA
    Income Inequality
    http://www.epi.org/publication/unequal-states/

    But you can read it and see if you reach my conclusion or not.

    Edit:particularly note the change in inequality over business cycles at end of report. I see a general increase across the US, across all regions. Though, admittedly Midwest has lower increase in inequality after 2007/8 recession than other regions. And if Paul was basing his statement on NY, CT and MA, that still makes his statement BS.

  165. 165.

    debbie

    November 13, 2015 at 11:05 pm

    @gogol’s wife:

    She’s got plenty of competition:

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/11/twitter-paris-attacks

  166. 166.

    dedc79

    November 13, 2015 at 11:10 pm

    @debbie: absolutely vile, but sadly not surprising at all.

  167. 167.

    RaflW

    November 13, 2015 at 11:15 pm

    @liberal:

    Still fucked up. If you’re born somewhere, you should automatically be a citizen. Period.

    As an opinion/assertion, have at it. But can you say more about why?

    I’m not trying to be a jerk. I was born in Switzerland to an American dad and a Swedish mom. Why should I have been Swiss at birth? I don’t think I should have, and the Swiss gov’t agreed. I believe that if I had stayed there (my dad had residency and a work permit, but we left when I was 4 1/2 years old), and completed the standard 12 years of school, I could have applied for Swiss citizenship at age 18, having showed a desire to be pretty Swiss and stick around that long.

    Otherwise? It was just an accident of corporate job location that I was born there.

    Oddly, I couldn’t be Swedish. In the 60s, Swedish citizenship was patrilineal only! So much for equality (they fixed it later and I could have become Swedish, but didn’t much want to do their compulsory military service.)

  168. 168.

    Goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 11:16 pm

    @ksmiami: Comparisons to the Shoah ARE fucking histrionic. And insulting. People need to get a grip.

  169. 169.

    Tenar Darell

    November 13, 2015 at 11:18 pm

    @jl: I think there’s a stat for that. But it’s one of those, depends on how you look at it statistics. Here’s something from June, before Rand Paul started getting involved. It’s inequality vs. distress in the comparison in the article I found, inequality is higher in states with Republican governors, but economic distress is higher in states with Democratic governors.

  170. 170.

    Goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 11:20 pm

    @Bobby Thomson: Oh blow out your arse. Comparisons to the Jews in Poland is completely histrionic. And insulting.

    Nobody has done anything yet in term of immigrants in France and some idiots on this thread are making Holocaust comparisons over some completely overblown fears of what might happen in some alternate universe.

    It’s stupid, it’s completely out of proportion and its deeply insulting.

  171. 171.

    RaflW

    November 13, 2015 at 11:23 pm

    I should add to the above that I get that refugees who can’t easily re-settle back where they came from are in a very different situation than my parents. The ability to settle, to develop roots, to start to feel in place where you live does matter for people.

    I am not advocating against birthright citizenship, just suggesting that for people who didn’t grow up seeing it as normal won’t have the same “it’s gotta be this way. Period.” thinking about it.

  172. 172.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 11:25 pm

    @Tenar Darell: Thanks for link to an interesting article. I will follow up on it later.

    To clarify, Rand Paul said that income inequality was higher in Dem states than GOP states, and in context, the implication was that liberal policies caused inequality. But across a lot of metrics you see a mix of Dem and GOP states in all percentiles of measures of income inequality, and the causes of inequality are due to host of reasons.

    And there is one metric where GOP states do dominate: high poverty rates in the South.

    So, those are the reasons why I typed that Paul was emitting BS. Fact that NY and CT are very high in income inequality doesn’t change that, or a person can pick a proportion somewhat greater than 50 percent of Dem states in top ten of one or two metrics of inequality doesn’t change fact that Paul was pumping out BS. IMHO. People are free to disagree.

  173. 173.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 13, 2015 at 11:35 pm

    @jl:

    People are free to disagree.

    This is Balloon Juice; why would you feel it necessary to say this?

  174. 174.

    Goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 11:35 pm

    @RaflW: I think your comment was thoughtful. Our American ideas on birthright citizenship are just that – American. Which means they are in part culturally and historically informed normative standrads specific to our country. Doesn’t make them “right” or universally true.

  175. 175.

    Goblue72

    November 13, 2015 at 11:41 pm

    @Tenar Darell: Though if you look at the list of distressed cities, there’s a kinda glaring pattern – Detroit, Baltimore, Memphis, Milwaukee, etc. Cities that got the short end of the post-industrial America stick. And also cities with large African-American and/or Latino populations (Las Vegas, Fresno, Chicago, etc)

    Those racial groups have much higher poverty rates, educational attainment rates, etc than the population as a whole.

    Hard to pin either on Democratic mayors. Plus, when you think “Blue” city, you are taking Boston, NYC, SF, LA, Seattle, Denver, Portland, Austin. All cities doing pretty well.

  176. 176.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 13, 2015 at 11:43 pm

    @jl: I think we agree then. Of course, what Rand Paul was trying to imply (that liberalism is the real cause of inequality, liberals are big hypocrites, etc., etc.) was not true. But I think the ranking of states by income Gini coefficient was probably his source.

  177. 177.

    catclub

    November 13, 2015 at 11:45 pm

    @liberal: It is the one thing that makes us actually exceptional, and yet the right-wing people who push ‘American exceptionalism’ hate it.

  178. 178.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 13, 2015 at 11:48 pm

    @RaflW: I think the great danger in countries without jus soli citizenship is that you can get whole multi-generational communities of people living their whole lives in the country who are not citizens.

    If a country doesn’t have jus soli birthright citizenship, I think it at least behooves them to try to figure out some way around this kind of situation. And some haven’t.

    If we revoked it in the US along the lines of what the Republican presidential candidates are suggesting, we might well get multi-generational communities of people living here who are considered illegal immigrants and subject to deportation, because of how their great-grandparents got into the country. Very, very bad.

  179. 179.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 11:49 pm

    @redshirt: Thanks. I’m just happy that my musical tastes didn’t terminate in HS like so many of my friends.

  180. 180.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 11:50 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    We are free to disagree, but not all BJ commenters admit that we are free to disagree.

    @Matt McIrvin:
    OK, then. I do agree with you that some Dem states have far higher inequality than most. But, it is not because they have liberal public policies. And some places with big resource extraction booms, very ‘white’ by most standard, Wyoming, for example also rank quite high.

  181. 181.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 13, 2015 at 11:51 pm

    @jl: I disagree. B-J commenters will disagree with anything, anywhere, anytime. Sometimes just for sport.

  182. 182.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 13, 2015 at 11:52 pm

    @catclub: Actually, most countries in the Americas have some sort of jus soli citizenship. Like presidential-congressional government systems, it’s one of those things that makes the US seem exceptional if you just compare it to European democracies, but not so exceptional if you include Latin America. (And, in this case, Canada.)

  183. 183.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 13, 2015 at 11:53 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Depends. For a long time after 9-11 CNN’s security analyst/advisor was a retired Green Beret senior NCO. I knew him. Very sharp guy. His problem at CNN was that when he’d line up a subject matter expert the producers would often not follow through and get them on the air in favor of someone with a big name, which often included inflated credentials, because they didn’t want to risk ratings.

  184. 184.

    jl

    November 13, 2015 at 11:55 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    ” we might well get multi-generational communities of people living here who are considered illegal immigrants and subject to deportation, because of how their great-grandparents got into the country. Very, very bad. ”

    Good point. If Trump is elected and doesn’t get ‘the best most fantastic’ people to write the law, or constitutional amendment, who knows how many nice white people will have to go rummaging through their past to find out the status of their umpty-ump great grand whatevers to find out whether they need to dodge the very humane Trump deportation squads.

  185. 185.

    ? Martin

    November 13, 2015 at 11:56 pm

    @jl: It depends a lot on what you are measuring. If you have a strong middle class, then the fact that you have a pile of billionaires isn’t that big of a problem because the general population isn’t struggling. But if you have a lot of people at the margins, then almost any concentrated wealth is a problem.

    And probably more important than that is the trend – if workers can’t get ahead (particularly if you have a conservative party that will blame and punish them for that situation) and the wealth keep getting richer, that’s what people will react to. That’s a fairly difficult thing to measure because it’s based on people’s perceptions more than any direct, quantitative measure.

  186. 186.

    jl

    November 14, 2015 at 12:00 am

    @? Martin: You might be interested in some of the trend charts in the linked report. If the trend is the issue, we all, every blessed Red or Blue one of us, are living in places that are getting more unequal, and at an increasing rapid rate.

  187. 187.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 14, 2015 at 12:01 am

    @schrodinger’s cat: If this is borne out, then this is really problematic. The Mumbai attacks had the hallmark of the Naxalite separatist movement. They’re an ideologically Maoist movement. However, that attack was carried out by elements of the separatist and terrorist groups from Jammu and Kashmir. This drove the question that I’ve never seen anyone answer: did the Jammu and Kashmiri terrorists simply adopt the Naxalite tactics because they are effective in an urban setting and they wanted to throw the Indian security forces off their scent? Or did they purposefully make a connection with the Naxalites and seek training from them on how to conduct that attack?

  188. 188.

    Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA

    November 14, 2015 at 12:03 am

    A friend of a friend was in the Bataclan. First my friend said she was shot in the leg; he was angry and upset about it, but glad she was okay. Later he learned that her boyfriend was there as well, and was killed. Died in her arms. I don’t know her myself, but as you can imagine my friend is a mess.

    Very, very sad.

  189. 189.

    max

    November 14, 2015 at 12:04 am

    @jl: We are free to disagree, but not all BJ commenters admit that we are free to disagree.

    We are free to disagree and if it gets really stupid or it involves UNLIMITED CORPORATE CONTRIBUTIONS, I’m breaking out the flamethrower.

    Le Monde.fr (Google translating):

    According Soren Seelow, our reporter to the Ministry of the Interior Place Beauvau eight attackers died: four in Bataclan, 3 of which were detonated, 3 at Stade de France who blew themselves up and probably Voltaire Boulevard, which would also detonated. The conditional is required because given the confusion of the crime scenes, DNA test results will take time to identify them.

    Here is the chronology of events as reconstructed by our reviewer: It starts with three explosions in Saint-Denis near the Stade de France in the time span of half an hour: 21:20, 21:30 21:53. At first the three attackers blew up explosive belts. But they miss their shot and do only one victim.

    The chronology is then less precise, but the police find that the attacks follow a line, a “coherent route” around the Bataclan. The chronological order of the attacks, however, not known: – rue de la Fontaine to the King, angle rue du Faubourg du Temple: 5 dead, 8 injured in absolute emergency [critical condition] – Alibert street: 12 dead, 10 injured in absolute emergency – 253 Boulevard Voltaire: a priori, a terrorist would have blown up no casualties – In front of the bar Belle team to 92 rue de Charonne: 19 dead, 14 injured in fierce urgency – At Bataclan 4 attackers kill the guards, enter the auditorium, commit carnage. Three blow themselves up at the time of the assault. The fourth was killed during the assault. A total of 8 assailants, 7 are made to explode

    The point of the events of the night at 5:45:
    – Six simultaneous attacks struck the capital, Friday, November 13th.
    – Assessment: At least 120 people died. Eight of the attackers were killed, seven of which would be made ​​explode.
    – Timeline: First three explosions sounded in Saint-Denis near the Stade de France, during the match France-Allemagne.Les three assailants detonated belts explosives. They do only one victim.
    – The chronology is then imprecise, but five other Parisian locations are affected: rue de la Fontaine au Roi (5 dead); rue Bichat (12 deaths); Boulevard Voltaire (a terrorist death); rue de Charonne (19 deaths); Bataclan (over 70 people).

    max
    [‘One wonders if any Republican candidates for president will be ‘made to explode’.’]

  190. 190.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 14, 2015 at 12:05 am

    @Adam L Silverman: It makes sense that a group seeking to attempt a terrorist attack would look to the tactics of another group that was successful in similar circs.

  191. 191.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 14, 2015 at 12:05 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: I disagree.

  192. 192.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 14, 2015 at 12:06 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Fuck you, you’re fucking wrong.

  193. 193.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 14, 2015 at 12:14 am

    Liz Cheney is a horrible person. Just saying.

  194. 194.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 14, 2015 at 12:18 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: No, I’m never mistaken, I once thought I was mistaken, but that was a mistake.

  195. 195.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 14, 2015 at 12:18 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: OK, I agree with you on that.

  196. 196.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 14, 2015 at 12:24 am

    I may be prejudiced – pace catclub – but I spent a good deal of time in Paris and I have strong family connection to France. This one has gutted me. I really hope (and trust) that the French will handle this better than we did 9/11. Fuck the fucking assholes.

  197. 197.

    Zinsky

    November 14, 2015 at 5:52 am

    While I grieve with our French brothers and sisters, I hope the media says as little about this incident as possible. Publicity is what the vile barbarians who did this want. I have noticed that some blogs that I read (e.g. Hullabaloo) haven’t even mentioned it. I’m sure CNN will cover it 24/7 until the next mass killing. I fear what will happen if another large-scale terrorist attack occurs on American soil. That could mean permanent martial law and the end of what little freedoms we still have.

  198. 198.

    CaseyL

    November 14, 2015 at 12:25 pm

    TaMara – love your Bixby updates! What a sweet young fellow he’s become! And those enormous paws!…Another thing I learned about Danes many years ago is they’re firmly convinced they’re lapdogs. It’s hilarious to see a 100+-pound dog insist on climbing/curling/backing into/trying to fit into one’s lap.

  199. 199.

    Bobby Thomson

    November 14, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    @Goblue72: Eat shit and live, asshole.

Comments are closed.

Primary Sidebar

Recent Comments

  • WaterGirl on Arizona In The Crosshairs (Apr 17, 2024 @ 2:00pm)
  • WaterGirl on Arizona In The Crosshairs (Apr 17, 2024 @ 1:58pm)
  • Marcopolo on Arizona In The Crosshairs (Apr 17, 2024 @ 1:58pm)
  • WaterGirl on Arizona In The Crosshairs (Apr 17, 2024 @ 1:55pm)
  • jimmiraybob on Wednesday Morning Open Thread: The GOP Insists There Will Be Blood Impeachment (Apr 17, 2024 @ 1:55pm)

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Balloon Juice Meetups!

All Meetups
Talk of Meetups – Meetup Planning
Proposed BJ meetups list from frosty

Fundraising 2023-24

Wis*Dems Supreme Court + SD-8
Virginia House Races
Four Directions – Montana
Worker Power AZ
Four Directions – Arizona
Four Directions – Nevada

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
Positive Climate News
War in Ukraine
Cole’s “Stories from the Road”
Classified Documents Primer

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Mailing List Signup
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)

Fix Nyms with Apostrophes

Balloon Juice for Ukraine

Donate

Twitter / Spoutible

Balloon Juice (Spoutible)
WaterGirl (Spoutible)
TaMara (Spoutible)
John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
David Anderson
Major Major Major Major
ActualCitizensUnited

Political Action 2024

Postcard Writing Information

Balloon Juice for Four Directions AZ

Donate

Balloon Juice for Four Directions NV

Donate

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2024 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!