Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

đŸŽ¶ Those boots were made for mockin’ đŸŽ”

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

In my day, never was longer.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

Fight for a just cause, love your fellow man, live a good life.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

“woke” is the new caravan.

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

Live so that if you miss a day of work people aren’t hoping you’re dead.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.

“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

Mediocre white men think RFK Jr’s pathetic midlife crisis is inspirational. The bar is set so low for them, it’s subterranean.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Late Night Post-Debate Open Thread

Late Night Post-Debate Open Thread

by | 173 Comments

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You’ll recall, the password at the last GOP debate was stophillary.

Washington Post‘s full transcript of the debate, with bonus “fact-checking”, here.

What say y’all?

ETA:

Reader Interactions

173Comments

  1. 1.

    NotMax

    Open Thread?

    So far really liking the Danish series Rita on Netflix.

    (Why wasn’t I aware of this show before?)

  4. 4.

    David Koch

    PublicPolicyPolling @ppppolls

    Our national post debate poll of Dem primary voters finds 67% think Clinton won to 20% for Sanders, 7% O’Malley: Link

    Retweets
    67
    Likes
    27

    8:30 PM – 14 Nov 2015

    The people have spoken.

  5. 5.

    Baud

    Here’s a serious question: Can someone link to Bernie’s health care plan? Hillary said Bernie’s plan was to have the states administer it, which sounds more like Medicaid for All rather than Medicare for All, and Bernie did not say that was incorrect. That’s a huge issue, IMHO.

  9. 9.

    JPL

    That interception probably sealed the win for Oklahoma.

    Oh back to the debate, it probably came in last in the ratings. Because of the terrorists attacks in France, it will not be mentioned past tonight. imo

  10. 10.

    redshirt

    I’m running an experiment called “not turning on my heat” and tonight has been my nadir – 54 degrees upon returning home tonight. So I cooked a pizza and then pointed a fan to redirect the heat. Also turned on a personal space heater at my desk, and wow! Despite it being 30 out (relatively warm, Winter considered) with howling winds, I just hit 62!

    Yay excessive insulation!

  15. 15.

    Baud

    @David Koch: Right. I saw there was nothing there the other day, so I assumed that the Medicare for All plan was the wishful thinking of his supporters. But Bernie talked about it tonight as if it were a real thing, and Hillary mentioned that Bernie has proposed legislation.

  16. 16.

    redshirt

    I have been given a brand new truck from Toyota for the next 4 months and it has all the bells and whistles and on the first day I got my first speeding ticket since the 80’s because I was paying attention to the XM radio screen and this made me wonder: are accident rates higher in cars with XM radio? I bet they are.

    But maybe mitigated somewhat by hands free bluetooth phones.

  17. 17.

    dmsilev

    @David Koch: That page does have a link to a prescription drug plan, which talks a lot about Medicare and such. It’s not a full description of a health-care plan, but it’s something.

  19. 19.

    redshirt

    @MomSense: Oh I’m in double pants double sweaters with a hat, don’t get me wrong. Still cold! I’d prefer it at 74 or so.

    But, science…..

    I also saved 100$ last month compared to my electric bill from the same time last year (in which I used full heat all October and on). That’s cool.

  23. 23.

    PeakVT

    I got a new heated mattress pad with separate left/right and top/middle/feet zones last week. It was a bit spendy but I’m going to be warm all winter. It also has a wireless control pad, which is dangerously close to having a Clapper, but I’ll swallow my pride for the sake of warmth.

  25. 25.

    Baud

    I did a search for bills that Bernie has introduced this term, and I don’t see a Medicare for All bill.

  26. 26.

    redshirt

    @efgoldman:

    I have a new Camry – basic, dull family car. Four-cylinder, automatic. And I’ve found out I really have to pay close attention getting on the highway, lest I find myself doing 85 or so. No tickets, yet.

    I got unlucky, which doubly pissed me off because I am usually hyper vigilant and I use cruise control all the time to avoid speeding. But the lure of the touch screen overwhelmed me that first night, and there was the Statie ready and eager for revenue.

    I also crashed into one of my rock walls that first night trying to back up using the back up camera exclusively. Luckily, no damage to the truck (which I will have to return in March).

  27. 27.

    Mike J

    @Omnes Omnibus: I had a cop ask me (after stopping me at 80), off the record, no really, how fast have you had it (Audi TT)? He looked disappointed when I told him it was computer capped at 135mph.

  28. 28.

    David Koch

    @Baud: John Conyers introduced a skeleton bill called HR 676 in 2003. people who have never read it or who aren’t serious like Kucinich always cite HR 676. It doesn’t work. I remember in 2009 people here analyzed it because the usual suspects like Weiner were pushing utopia, and they showed how it was crap. So I printed out myself and it was only 7 pages long. It’s so thin, it’s damn near invisible. But the pragmatists who examined this had a lot of great numbers and figures on why it didn’t work. I tried to find the links but I was unable.

    But the pragmatists who examined this had a lot of great numbers and figures on why it didn’t work. I tried to find the links but I was unable.

  29. 29.

    redshirt

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    And that’s why I use cruise control (when it is not rainy or icy). 100 shows up way too easily on my car.

    Oh yeah, true Cruise Control believer here. I was just out of sorts with the new truck (literally had it for two hours) and again, XM radio. There was a George Carlin concert I found! And a 185$ ticket for 60 in a 45.

  30. 30.

    Baud

    Here it is: Bernie introduced it in the last Congress.

    Here is the official description. Too tired to read the bill itself for the details:

    American Health Security Act of 2013 – Expresses the sense of the Senate concerning: (1) enactment of a Medicare-for-All Single Payer Health Care System; (2) recognition of health care as a human right; (3) state flexibility in designing health care programs; and (4) the goals of a new single-payer health care system, efficiencies through integrated care, and implementation of policies to ensure higher quality, better prevention, and lower per capita costs.

    Establishes the State-Based American Health Security Program to provide every U.S. resident with health care services. Requires each participating state to establish a state health security program.

    Eliminates benefits under: (1) titles XVIII (Medicare), XIX (Medicaid), and XXI (Children’s Health Insurance) (CHIP, formerly known as SCHIP) of the Social Security Act; (2) the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program; and (3) TRICARE.

    Repeals provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) related to health insurance coverage, including provisions concerning state health insurance exchanges.

    Requires each state health security program to prohibit the sale of health insurance in that state that duplicates benefits provided under the program.

    Establishes the American Health Security Standards Board to: (1) develop policies, procedures, guidelines and requirements to carry out this Act; (2) establish uniform reporting requirements and quality performance standards; (3) provide for an American Health Security Advisory Council; and (4) establish a national health security budget specifying the total federal and state expenditures to be made for covered health care services.

    Establishes the American Health Security Quality Council to: (1) review and evaluate practice guidelines, standards of quality, performance measures, and medical review criteria; and (2) develop minimum competence criteria. Creates the Center for American Health Security Innovation to accelerate the implementation of new models of care that would improve patient care, improve population health, and lower costs.

    Establishes the Office of Primary Care and Prevention Research within the Office of the Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

    Creates the American Health Security Trust Fund and appropriates to it specified tax liabilities and current health program receipts, including premium assistance credit amounts under PPACA.

    Amends the Internal Revenue Code to impose on individuals: (1) a health care income tax, and (2) an income tax surcharge on amounts of modified adjusted gross income exceeding $1 million. Imposes an excise tax on securities transactions and allows an income tax credit for such taxes.

  31. 31.

    ThresherK

    @efgoldman: The sins of Nike are many and widespread, not limited to Oregon and Baylor. However, Adidas is responsible for the abomination that is tonight’s UCLA Inkblots kit.

    PS Wazzou’s black pants look like the Cougars’ student manager forgot their real ones back at the campus. Another Nike innovation.

  32. 32.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Baud: S.1782 seems to be his legislation. (That’s not a link to the bill but discussion of its terms. The LOC Thomas site is a bear to link to.)

    HTH.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  37. 37.

    David Koch

    @Baud:

    SEC. 811. Payroll tax on employers.

    “(c) Health care.—In addition to other taxes, there is hereby imposed on every employer an excise tax, with respect to having individuals in his employ, equal to 6.7 percent of the wages”

    Plus

    “SEC. 59B. Health care income tax.

    “If taxable income is: The applicable amount is:
    Not over $200,000 2.2% of taxable income
    Over $200,000 but not over $400,000 $4,400, plus 3.2% of the excess over $200,000
    Over $400,000 but not over $600,000 $10,800, plus 4.2% of the excess over $400,000
    Over $600,000 $19,200, plus 5.2% of the excess over $600,000.

    So everyone would pay 6.7% payroll tax

  38. 38.

    jl

    @dmsilev:

    There is a page, but not linked to his current issues page on his main campaign website.

    ON THE ISSUES
    Medicare for All
    https://berniesanders.com/medicare-for-all/

    Not much of a plan there.
    ‘Administered’ by states can mean pretty much anything, and I think another BS question by sucky moderators.

    Medicaid is not a single federal plan administered by states, it is really a national funding mechanism that consists of 50 very different state programs. So, it really depends on the detail and minimum standards of the national framework that states will administer. I doubt Sanders would use the word Medicare for anything administered on a state level that has standards as flexible and Medicaid, but he needs to give more detail.

    Some very good national health programs have the administration mostly at regional level, and quite a bit of flexibility, and works well as long as minimum standards are high and rigorous enough. Sweden is a good example. Belgium is an example of a not so good way to do it.

  39. 39.

    MomSense

    @redshirt:

    Wind was frigid today. I had to go out to walk the dog and she dragged me through some crazy terrain trying to catch a leaf. There were thousands of them blowing and she was fixed on one.

  42. 42.

    Fair Economist

    @efgoldman:

    Especially when Vermont’s similar universal system failed because it wasn’t affordable at the small-state level.

    It was affordable, it’s just that the politicians figured the voters would freak out at the horror of paying $1 in taxes to save $2 in insurance premiums.

  45. 45.

    jl

    @Baud: FYWP locking me out, and lost the text I was going to copy in.

    But as I understand the text of the bill, it applies the standards for exchange policies under ACA to state programs. Search for ‘state flexibility’ in the text.

    Edit: which is still too vague. As RM posts show, the robot’s breakfast of metal plans under ACA with loose standards still allows far too much cherry picking. I was hoping for at least a proposal for a standard mandatory plan. Sanders is always saying that we should look to other countries to learn from their successes. Well, 22 plus countries have programs that work from so so to much better than ours, and are all far cheaper in a macroeconomic sense. Why not use one of them as a model?

  48. 48.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @MomSense: Well, the best way to catch one of them is to aim at just one. I’ve seen a dog run after four squirrels, and that never works.

  49. 49.

    David Koch

    @Fair Economist: money illusion is a real issue. i have found few understand that so called fringe benefits are actual compensation. they view them as.. well, freebes. so when I’ve told them that single payer would be more cost effective, it would be a flat payroll tax like medicare, too many don’t get it upside and just see money coming out of the check.

  50. 50.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @redshirt: Dude, southern and western Illinois is a flat wasteland with no cops and dead straight highways. The run from Bloomington to Rockford is perfect for speed.

  51. 51.

    redshirt

    The best way to lose users both old and new is repeated outages.

    People eventually say “see ya” and go elsewhere.

    So this beta testing in real time over weeks is something to behold in terms of how not to do things.

  52. 52.

    Mike J

    @redshirt: I once got pulled over at 75 in a 55, but the catch was I was 15 years old and didn’t actually have a license, and was driving home to Memphis from Denver. The MO state trooper decided it would be too much paperwork to deal with and let me go without even a written warning.

  54. 54.

    redshirt

    @Omnes Omnibus: There could always possibly be a cop. And thus one must act as if there is the chance there could be a cop. And 70 over the posted speed limit is jailable, is it not? Or can white folk plead out of that?

  55. 55.

    HumboldtBlue

    Y’all do realize that balloon guy without the balloon visible is just weird-looking yelling stick man, right?

  59. 59.

    David Koch

    More from PPP:

    -Clinton is by a wide margin the candidate debate watchers trust the most on national security issues. 75% say they have the most faith in Clinton on that front, compared to only 17% for Sanders, and 5% for O’Malley. National security issues were a primary focus tonight in the aftermath of yesterday’s tragedy in France, and Democratic voters by far and away trust Clinton the most on that issue.

    -What’s particularly striking is how universal the sentiment that Clinton won the debate tonight is among all the different groups within the Democratic Party. 86% of African Americans, 73% of women, 70% of moderates, 69% of seniors, 67% of Hispanics, 65% of liberals, 61% of white voters, 58% of men, and 50% of younger voters all think that Clinton was the winner of tonight’s debate.
    .

    Sanders does better with young voters, and good appeal with men and whites. Clinton is strong with liberals(who knew), POC, and Seniors.

  60. 60.

    redshirt

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think you miss my points. Let me summarize:

    1. Getting stopped is a matter of luck and some skill. Like poker, really.
    2. Speeding on the Autobahn is wicked cool and I’m jealous, I’d love to do it too. But, it’s not as cool as
    3. Hitting mid 120’s in America, land of the TAZER and shoot first cop is far cooler, because it’s more dangerous than speeding on the Autobahn. (But of course there’s levels of that, and eras. Speeding in the 70’s might just end with the cop helping you open a beer for your ride home.)

  63. 63.

    redshirt

    @Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: I think you miss my points. Let me summarize:

    1. Getting stopped is a matter of luck and some skill. Like p0k3r, really.
    2. Speeding on the Autobahn is wicked cool and I’m jealous, I’d love to do it too. But, it’s not as cool as
    3. Hitting mid 120’s in America, land of the TAZER and shoot first cop is far cooler, because it’s more dangerous than speeding on the Autobahn. (But of course there’s levels of that, and eras. Speeding in the 70’s might just end with the cop helping you open a beer for your ride home.)

  64. 64.

    Betty Cracker

    I’m uneasy about PBO being in Turkey for the G20. I’m sure the security is crazy tight, but still…

  65. 65.

    Suzanne

    God. Hearing everyone talk about cold weather and speeding tickets makes me feel like I live in a different country. Mr. Suzanne and I went to an outdoor event in the middle of the day today. I wore a sleeveless dress and sheer tights, and I was sweating. And 80-85 mph on Phoenix freeways is very typical. I got two speeding tickets this year (got one dismissed), but neither were on freeways.

    Got home about half an hour ago from a basketball game, and I only saw about 15 minutes of the debate, but my overall impression, once again, is that our side has all the adults in the room, and the other side has the petulant toddlers.

  66. 66.

    Mike J

    @redshirt:

    Speeding in the 70’s might just end with the cop helping you open a beer for your ride home.

    And speeding while white is safer than some of the alternatives.

  67. 67.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @redshirt: I am not missing your point. I just don’t have the personal experience to respond. And you really don’t know how much of wasteland downstate Illinois is.

  68. 68.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @HumboldtBlue:”Weird-looking yelling stick man”? There’s a joke in there somewhere about our blogmaster losing some weight, but I’m not awake enough to assemble it.

  71. 71.

    jl

    @David Koch:

    ” money illusion is a real issue. ”

    In addition to money illusion there was real basis for doubt about how the financing would work. Private plans on ACA exchanges would be very gradually phased out. Details about exactly how the financing would work were left for later for boards and regulators to work out. I can see how arguments that there would be a danger of people still paying for private policies and having to pay for subsidies to public plans would scare people and politicians.

    The guy who designed it, the economist, William C. Hsiao, has a successful record in consulting on and fixing national public systems, and I think pretty much designed the reform in Taiwan, was ignored on some key points. Particularly to set up strong regulatory boards that could quickly set up details of system so people could compare public and private policies and be assured that there would be no cross subsidies between sectors.

    There are some federal laws, ERISA is an example, that make it hard for states to adopt single payer system. Many large employers can opt out of any state plan under ERISA, and the idea was to entice them out of self-insurance into state plan by taxing them for public plan even if they did not participate.

    Sander has stunk at explaining why the VT plan failed when asked. I think some simple accurate sound bites could be crafted. He is hurting his own cause by not giving more detail on his health care ideas.

  73. 73.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Suzanne: Speeding depends on where you are. Around Chicago, 80-90 on the interstates is normal. On I-70 in Ohio, it is a ticket. In WI, it just helps to know the types of places the cops set up with radar.

  74. 74.

    redshirt

    @Mike J: I’ve been alluding that, right? That speeding in America is a white hobby, and the probation free. Is a speeding ticket grounds for violation of probation? Find out in court 1/23/16!

    Would an African-American speeder be afforded the same amount of warnings, do you think?

  78. 78.

    CZAnne

    I’m a western stater, so my familiarity with Martin O’Malley is limited. Colorado doesn’t run a lot of Maryland news, for some reason. I’ve heard his national platform performances (so this year’s debates, plus vaguish memories of keynotes at national Dem conventions.) Oh, and knowing that Tommy Carzetti on The Wire was based on MO’M’s Baltimore mayoral run. (And I’m just coming to The Wire now, after bouncing off it a couple times, and I’ve only gotten to S4, and I’ve only made it this far because I fell down the Serial rabbit hole so I’ve now got some background on late 20th century Baltimore.)

    I like HRC and Bernie Sanders, but I’m in a caucus/late primary state so my early decision doesn’t matter much. I’m hearing O’Malley talk a good game, but talk isn’t necessarily action. From what I can tell, early 21st century Baltimore sounded like a terrarium of a century’s policies, failed and successful. And a microcosm of the sort of devastation that becomes civil war. To me, that’s valuable on the job experience, if he left the place in better condition than he found it, and the sort of executive experience that should be on a Presidential resume. And… well… it might be good to have someone with a background in negotiating entrenched institutional corruption (assuming O’Malley actually managed to make any headway.) And to be brutally honest… I’m a GenXer. My entire political life from the moment I cast my first ballot until I got to vote for a very early Xer in 2008 has been force-focused on The Sixties generation, and how the Boomers spent and reacted to their twenties. There’s a fault-line division between the generation who grew up in the Great Society and those who got Morning in America… and that division has some wickedly sharp edges. I’d like to hear my (generally liberal) generation’s voice instead of having it distorted through the Rand-infected filter of Rubio, Cruz, and Ryan.

    I’ve dug through a few years’ worth of Baltimore Sun archives, but O’Malley is hard to get a handle on. (The Sun seemed to love/hate him on alternate days.) Googling isn’t turning up anything outside expectations. Since he’s polling low, he’s not getting much attention. Does anyone have any sources they’re willing to share? I think I need to be paying attention to this one.

  80. 80.

    Suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus: When I was in Mexico last time, I set the cruise control for EXACTLY the speed limit, even though it was ridiculously low for the driving conditions. I still got pulled over, and the officer tried to bribe me for $40. I didn’t give it to him.

  81. 81.

    redshirt

    @Betty Cracker: I’m not worried about BO’s body coverage, but rather the overall location. Who’s to say someone couldn’t fire mortar shots at the location? How would you stop that once fired? Or a suicide plane or ironic drone attack? It seems so risky.

  82. 82.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @CZAnne: I really think that your best chance of voting for a viable, left of center candidate from near your age cohort was in 2008 and 2012 when Obama was on the ticket.

  83. 83.

    redshirt

    @efgoldman:

    My granddaughter is 27 months old today, and she makes more sense, and has better self-control, than any of the klowns in the klown kar and most of the RWNJs in congress.

    How often do you get to visit with her?

  84. 84.

    redshirt

    I am now harboring a secret dream of being a hay farmer, since you are literally growing grass as a crop. It’s funny.

    “So what you do?”

    “I’ve got a really big lawn.”

  86. 86.

    Fair Economist

    @David Koch:

    when I’ve told them that single payer would be more cost effective, it would be a flat payroll tax like medicare, too many don’t get it upside and just see money coming out of the check.

    Yes, that’s pretty much what the Vermont politicians said, and sadly I agree you’re probably right. The right has done a good job demonizing taxes.

  87. 87.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @CZAnne: I don’t think he’s at his best in these debates where the time per answer is so short. He did very well against VA governor McDonnell when they had a couple of debates in 2012. Politico has some some stories about it. They used to have a ~ 50 min video of the event but I don’t see it there now. here’s an excerpt.

    This might not be his year. But he’s a smart, talented man. He’s worth watching.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  88. 88.

    mclaren

    The asshole moderaters kept trying to force Sanders and Clinton and the rest of the Demo candidates to lie that raising the minimum wage will cut jobs. Fortunately, all the Demo candidates pushed back hard against that lie and even cited studies + actual experience in the states that raised the minimum wage to show that raising it increases jobs.
    As well as boosting the overall economy, in a nice bit of Keynesian economic reasoning.
    Very good contrast with the wacka-wacka Repub economic “arguments,” which seemed to come out of some crackpot gold-standard get-rich-quick Ponzi scheme masterminded by Lyndon LaRouche.
    Alas, the Demos did all jump up and down and scream “KILL! KILL!! KILL!!!” as I predicted. Just for once I’d like to see a Democratic candidate quote General Smedley Butler’s “War Is A Racket” speech.
    But that’s probably too much to ask for.
    The Democratic debate didn’t have anywhere near the comedic value of the Republican event. I’m still hoping I’ll see one of the Republican candidates levitate while vomiting pea soup and rotating his head 360 degrees.
    Well, maybe next one…

  89. 89.

    David Koch

    Hillary had a good debate.

    But clearly it was a mistake for her to shout, “you need me on that wall! Who’s gonna do it? You? You, John Dickerson!?”

    Press is gonna pounce all over that.

  92. 92.

    BR

    I’m reading that Hillary claimed Sanders’s free tuition plan is a bad idea because rich people would benefit too. If that’s what she argued, that’s really unfortunate, and she should know better. That’s like saying that it’s bad that the library is free because then rich people would benefit too.

  93. 93.

    mclaren

    @MomSense:

    I’m envious. Wrapped in two blankets and wearing several layers of fleece.

    You should have watched the Republican debate to stay warm. You would have been thoroughly fleeced.

  94. 94.

    Mike J

    @David Koch:

    Hillary had a good debate.

    Her problem is she can’t actually win anything by debating. As the favorite, she can only lose. Still, it’s probably good for her to spar with somebody and give people a reason to talk about the party.

  95. 95.

    mclaren

    @redshirt:

    How would you stop that once fired? Or a suicide plane or ironic drone attack? It seems so risky.

    Not to worry. The Secret Service have this covered. They’ve got phalanx radar-controlled gatling guns that will shoot down anything aimed at Obama, The Secret Service also uses drones of its own to patrol any area the president visits. I think we can safely assume that the Secret Service drones are probably armed.

    The U.S. Secret Service does things like bolt down manhole covers on the streets where the president is scheduled to drive with titanium bolts that can’t be removed a day before the parade. Or stationing agents to watch a dumpster outside a hotel the president will visit a day before he visits it. They’re very thorough nowadays.

  96. 96.

    jl

    @BR:Looks like HRC still has a little triangle she can pull out and play when she feels she needs to. I agree with you that it is a bad argument, and in this case there are better ones against Sander’s approach.

  100. 100.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BR: No, her point was that people should graduate from college debt free. She used the example of figuring that Trump’s children don’t need the help of free tuition.

  102. 102.

    joel hanes

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    1982 RX-7 southbound on I-5 downhill. 1:30 AM and with a big tailwind – 140 mph by the tach
    Stupid stupid stupid the car was never made for that
    Scared the bejeezus out of me when the body lifted up off the wheels.

  104. 104.

    redshirt

    @Omnes Omnibus: Personal sized drones that lots of Redditors are flying this very day, no doubt. They’re most likely 1-4 feet wide a foot thick and capable of carrying a camera. Replace camera with bomb and voila! ISIS air force.

  105. 105.

    mclaren

    @redshirt:

    I thought everybody knew how thoroughly the Secret Service prepares when the president goes on a trip, either here in the U.S. or overseas. As I recall, the president’s limousine is so heavily armored that it got hung up on a speed bump last time Obama went overseas and had to be hauled off with some kind of heavy duty tractor.

    I’d be willing to bet that Obama’s armored presidential limousine alone could withstand a full-scale artillery attack. I’d be surprised if it didn’t have depleted uranium armor, like an Abrams M-1 tank, and possibly even reactive anti-artillery plate (sensors that use flechettes to blow off part of the exterior using shaped charges to pre-explode any projectile coming toward it).

    Plus probably a full suite of electronic countermeasures, including multimodal reflection sorting and redirection for both lidar and radar and probably even GPS.

    Also, Secret Service agents work in pairs to assure against any agent going rogue. So there’s very little to worry about.

    I thought everybody knew this stuff?

  107. 107.

    mclaren

    @efgoldman:

    We have at least one big USAF base in Turkey, plus a carrier group in the Mediterranean. Seems to me there will be constant patrols (if there aren’t already) for the duration of the event…

    Exactly. One honking big EC-137 high overheard to hoover up all the elint and do IFF. Then a bunch of aerostats with massive amounts of camera eqpt lower down (a few thousand feet overhead) to do “eye in the sky” duty the way we do in Afghanistan.

    I’d be very surprised if there was a hummingbird flying in that airspace that wasn’t identified, tagged with an electronic ident on some big flatscreen somewhere, and monitored for flight path and vector by the U.S. military during Obama’s meeting.

  109. 109.

    redshirt

    @mclaren:

    Exactly. One honking big EC-137 high overheard to hoover up all the elint and do IFF. Then a bunch of aerostats with massive amounts of camera eqpt lower down (a few thousand feet overhead) to do “eye in the sky” duty the way we do in Afghanistan.

    I’d be very surprised if there was a hummingbird flying in that airspace that wasn’t identified, tagged with an electronic ident on some big flatscreen somewhere, and monitored for flight path and vector by the U.S. military during Obama’s meeting.

    And yet rednecks crash planes outside the White House walls.

  110. 110.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @mclaren: Dear god, you are daft. I’ll just leave it at this, there isn’t a car on earth – no matter how armored – that could survive the fire of a full artillery battery, let alone a battalion.

  111. 111.

    mclaren

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    A U.S. Abrams tank can reportedly laugh off a direct artillery strike. I’d be surprised if the presidential limousine wasn’t as well armored.

    But of course I have no direct knowledge, and can’t personally verify. So you’re entitled to your opinion.

  113. 113.

    Ruckus

    @redshirt:
    The basic premise is, go as fast as possible when you can, for you won’t be able to go fast for long. Judging by appearances/experience this applies any time, any place.

  115. 115.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @mclaren: Dude, you are talking about one shell. Artillery doesn’t work in terms of one shell. And FWIW, I call BS on the idea that a movable auto could withstand a direct hit from a 155 shell. You have no fucking clue about the destructive capacity of the artillery. Just go to bed.

  117. 117.

    mclaren

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You have no fucking clue about the destructive capacity of the artillery.

    On the effectiveness of artillery splinter against tanks there is no need for estimates. It is a NATO standard. In particular STANAG 4569:

    155mm HE splinters (aka fragments) at 25m have the same penetration effectiveness as a 25mm APDS at 500m (Level 5) and a 155mm HE at 30m is the same as a 14.5mm AP at 200m (Level IV).

    While the frontal armour of most tanks will withstand 155mm HE splinters from a blast within 20m the side and rear armour won’t. Artillery shells falling from indirect fire are more likely to hit tanks with splinters from the sides and rear than the front. If the concentration of fire is dense enough to ensure blasts within 20-30m of tanks then those tanks are going to suffer some significant internal damage and be knocked out.

    So if the presidential limousine is as well armored as an Abrams M-1 tank, it can probably survive more than one 155mm HE round but may be damaged. A full artillery barrage? No, but then again, recall the C-RAM system, which would blow up the 155mm HE rounds in midair to let the president’s entourage escape. In the interim, orbiting F-18s would almost certainly take out that artillery battalion with missiles.

    The people in the U.S. military are not stupid. They have this stuff covered.

  118. 118.

    mikej

    People get confused about what drones are. Some of the US military drones are the size of a 737. People hear about drone fired missiles and then see a $79 drone at Fries and have delusions of grandeur.

  119. 119.

    Anne Laurie

    @redshirt:

    No such issues in Vancouver is really all I’m saying.

    Meh. IIRC, every successful assassination of an American president — even the near-misses, like Ford or Reagan — has taken place on American soil. One important factor not yet mentioned: It is very much to Turkey‘s advantage that nothing unpleasant happen to President Obama while he is under their skies, and if you think our own Secret Service can be a little lackadaisical about potential threats, I doubt the Turkish security set to guard an international conference would have any compunction against eliminating any misguided Daesh, Kurdish separatists, or other would-be troublemakers with extreme prejudice.

    And on the other side of the argument, were the President’s advisors to so much as hint that he might be pulling back from international travel, the Repubs and their media enablers would immediately howl that The Black Dude was a-skeered of the boogey monsters he personally had nurtured!

  124. 124.

    srv

    No one is going to be able to deploy a Howitzer near a motorcade and w/o GPS or laser guided munitions (we have those) they’d have to have a lot of them to target a moving target.

    Motorcades probably have mortar detection, but they don’t carry multi-ton giant Phalanx guns with them, they spoof the proximity fuses with electronics. See the truck in front with 50 antennas on it.

    For RPGs, they’re probably armored enough and have reactive armor like tanks do.

  127. 127.

    sharl

    @CZAnne: As I resident of Maryland I am embarrassed to say that I don’t have much to offer you in the way of information on O’Malley. We actually had a rather passionate O’Malley fan here in the comments, but I haven’t seen askew lately (maybe I just haven’t been here when she is posting). I would defer to her if she were still around.

    One of his decisions that was controversial within the state was to re-neg on a promise to protect the pension fund for state government employees. In the unlikely event he gains enough support to threaten HRC or Bernie, I wonder if national labor groups will bring that up. Local labor groups certainly complained about it at the time. (That same raid on the state pension fund to help balance the state budget was widely panned in media editorials as well.)

    O’Malley’s record on crime and law enforcement during his tenure as mayor of Baltimore has gotten a lot more attention; Baltimore resident and creator of The Wire David Simon has hammered O’Malley really hard about his policies in those days. O’Malley seems to offer no regrets or apologies – at least not in any response from him I’ve ever read or heard – and in his defense, a fair number of black folk in Baltimore who lived in those horrible crime-ridden days are somewhat sympathetic to him. It appears to be a different story with younger AAs though, who only know they’re getting rousted and abused by police for the “crime” of Walking While Black.

    One thing that took me aback was when, during a visit to Netroots Nation back in July, O’Malley uttered the phrase “All Lives Matter” while addressing question about police violence against Blacks. [I’m outta links, but if you search on {O’Malley}+{“All Lives Matter”}, it should pop up in the results list from a number of sources.] That was remarkably ignorant and tin-eared, especially coming from a guy who was mayor of an AA-majority city, then governor of a state with a huge AA population (Baltimore and Prince George’s County in particular). Makes me wonder if he really learned anything while governing here, or knows who votes most reliably in the Democratic Party (maybe in his head he’s already running in the November general…).

    If by some miracle he were to become the Democratic nominee, I’d drag my stunned self to the poll and vote for him. But I have my doubts about the guy.

  130. 130.

    Ruckus

    @sharl:
    It would have to be a miracle for him to get the nomination. And yes he’d be better than any of the klowns but he is running in third for several very good reasons, some that you’ve mentioned and the rest from his debate performances. He isn’t ready now and I doubt he’ll ever be ready to actually be president.

  133. 133.

    Matt McIrvin

    @David Koch: Maybe they just figure, probably accurately, that their employers would pocket the savings and pass the tax on to them. Any change in the structure of compensation is an opportunity for this kind of thing.

  134. 134.

    Jay C

    @redshirt: @Omnes Omnibus:

    Wouldn’t the destructive capability of am “ISIS Air Force”-type drone (presumably something like a OTC/kit/hobby model) depend on its lifting capacity (and/or the range it could be controlled at)?. I will admit to knowing little or nothing about commercially-available drones, but ISTM that a “swarm” of say, 6 drones carrying a small AP bomb (the standard US hand grenade weighs 14 oz/400g) might be able to do a non-trivial amount of damage to, frex, a crowd of people in a line outside a major diplomatic gathering (like the G20 meeting) – to say nothing of the psychological impact/publicity of such a unique form of attack. Yes, they probably could be brought down with a shotgun, but is that going be a viable defense in a crowd situation (or at night)?
    It seems to be a moderately far-fetched threat scenario – especially as terrorist groups like ISIL seem quite capable of wreaking havoc using tried-and-true crude methods like suicide bombers/gunners – but it probably shouldn’t be dismissed, either.

  135. 135.

    Kay

    I thought it was disappointing. They all sounded defensive- particularly Sanders, who to me was all but shouting “don’t ask me about Paris!” – and like they were back on their heels with the Paris attacks. Maybe that’s fine, that events actually affect them, but my over-all sense was “panicky” and “grasping”. I don’t think that’s a good look for Democrats. Clinton has to come up with a better narrative to explain her position on campaign finance. Sanders will do damage with that attack. She’s genuinely vulnerable there. Campaign finance/capture/corruption is important enough (to me) that I’m glad he’s going there, despite the fact that if it catches on it will hurt her in the general but since I think she will be the nominee she better figure something out to say because I want her to win the general. It’s neutralized as an attack in the general if it’s Bush or Rubio, but I could see the electorate falling into “they’re all the same” very easily unless she differentiates herself from the Citizens wing of the GOP there.

  136. 136.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Mike J:

    Her problem is she can’t actually win anything by debating.

    You’d think that, but I’ve watched how these debates affect people here. People on the fence are becoming enthusiastic. Many of her haters are going ‘Hey, she’s not what I thought.’

    @mclaren:

    So if the presidential limousine is as well armored as an Abrams M-1 tank

    Here is your problem. That’s a false premise. No armored car is as well armored as a tank. That’s why they’re tanks! It’s the whole tank concept. Tanks are designed around the many engineering problems created by being a honking big, heavy pile of armor.

    And biological technology has advanced since 2002.

    Not that much. I have friends and relatives in this field. It’s hard to even know where to begin. Pathogens don’t survive well for delivery. You can build a genome, but unless it’s a copy of one you already know, you won’t know how it works. Genetics is an emergent process, unpredictable. Incredible amounts of time and effort are spent in trial and error. Basically, it might seem physically possible, but to modify (forget build from scratch) a custom pathogen requires years of work from expert research teams, almost never works the way they wanted anyway, and those resources are way beyond anyone but a first world government.

    Oh, and:

    I think we can safely assume that the Secret Service drones are probably armed.

    No, we can’t. That’s so weird and unrealistic it’s almost tinfoil hat ‘medical satellite’ thinking. Not quite, but close.

  137. 137.

    Kay

    The moderator was horrible, too. I know it is difficult to do that well- I believe it is difficult- but there is somewhere in between “potted plant” and “I’ll take the other side and join the debate” that moderators have to hit. The moderator can’t be in the debate, he can’t be the cantankerous 4th candidate, and he was. I think he over-prepared and then spent all his time ticking off points he wanted to make. That’s a candidate, not a moderator.

  139. 139.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Jay C: As others have mentioned, a weak point in stand-off weapons is the communications. Someone is guiding these things – if they can’t communicate with them, they won’t work properly. Drones you can buy off the shelf use known types of radios at known frequencies. While you’ll get in trouble with the FCC if you try to use it, people are selling portable jammers for all types of radio communications. The US government undoubtedly has more powerful things than that.

    Obama will be reasonably safe on his trip. Not perfectly, but reasonably. I’m sure the Secret Service and US military are considering the increased risk as we speak.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  141. 141.

    Kay

    Also, the exact phrasing on how Democrats talk about terrorism is just infuriating. Can someone interview political media and find out why they are obsessed with this?

    Is there some reason we all have to say “we’re at war with radical Islam”, other than the fact that Republicans demand these phrases all the time, and have for years? What is the concept here- the theory- of why this is so important? God almighty one would think people who work with words and claim to want debate and discussion would stop insisting everyone parrot the exact same phrases.

    I hope we’re not going to do this again, like after 9/11, when Republicans and media created a whole acceptable language around terrorism- specific words that must be said or cannot be uttered. It was a bad idea. It led to lockstep thinking and tribal “with us or agin us” behavior and we’re still paying for it. I just had this sense of despair when I heard dopey moderator enforcing the terror speech code. We don’t have to be limited to what are terms of art with all kinds of implied meaning when talking about this. We can use our own words. Nothing bad will happen if we refuse to invoke the magic phrase ‘o the moment.

  143. 143.

    debbie

    @Betty Cracker:

    They’d have to be beyond suicidal to try an attack during the conference. There would be no better way to bring a unified, worldwide attack down upon them.

  144. 144.

    debbie

    @Kay:

    I don’t know, I’m still not comfortable with Hillary’s laying off doing anything about Wall Street. I know she’s not running, but I’d love a debate between Clinton and Warren. Even toss Fiorina in there for amusement.

  145. 145.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Kay: Yeah, Dickerson was entirely too persistent about those four words – “war with radical Islam”. It was good that they pushed back, but it shows how difficult it is to get a Democratic point of view across when the mass-market communication system controls the framing.

    JOHN DICKERSON:

    Marco Rubio, also running for president, said that this attack showed– in– the attack in Paris showed that we are at war with radical Islam. Do you agree with that characterization, radical Islam?

    Why on earth should Marco Rubio get a shout-out at a Democratic debate? He’s lagging in every poll. He has no stature in the Senate. He has no foreign-policy expertise to speak of. Why?

    Who is “we” in that quote? How is what happened in Paris illustrative of us being at “war” any more than what has been happening since late 2001? Doesn’t the question show instead that Rubio is a lightweight political hack who has no understanding of what’s been going on in the last 15 years?

    The framing of the question was nothing but partisan Teabagger nonsense. Sure, he was within his right to ask it, but to then continue to press them to say the 4 words as some sort of talisman showed that he wasn’t interested in getting their views, but instead interested in scoring points for Rubio and the Teabaggers.

    But it’s not surprising.

    Fortunately, almost nobody but the political press (and politics junkies like us) care about Dickerson’s gotcha questions. By the time people vote, those 4 words are going to be way down the list of concerns.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  146. 146.

    Kay

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    It reminds me of the ridiculous legalistic parsing Jake Tapper did with Benghazi. What he was asking was “did the administration spin the attack on Benghazi because they were worried about the effect on the election”? That’s a question. He can ask it. Instead we spent 2 years parsing what Susan Rice said on his show, which was nothing- she said nothing. She spouted boilerplate “diplomat” which he blew up into a “scoop”. There was nothing fucking THERE so they had to imply all this meaning into 4 words.

    Just ask the question. They don’t have to set it up as if these formulations they use are actual terms of art that everyone accepts. They get too far out in front to where they’re too much a part of creating a narrative. Just back off and stop trying to control the narrative.

  148. 148.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    BooMan has a good post up this morning:

    It’s too late to avoid this problem, so the blame game is a diversion of energy. There are lessons to be learned from the past, and they will be learned better by people who aren’t distracted with idiotic efforts to blame them for the decisions of terrorists who shoot up restaurants and concert venues.

    This is the result of a civil, sectarian war in the Arab world that cannot be resolved by taking the Sunnis’ side against Assad or taking Assad’s side against the Sunnis. We do not and should not have a preference between Sunnis and Shiites, and we cannot allow our alliances with Sunni nations like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Egypt to lead us into taking a side against the Shiites.

    Neither can we just continue to keep this conflict at arm’s length and hope that it can be contained. There is a refugee crisis roiling Europe now, and it just became the mother of all political headaches for European politicians. We can perhaps live with continued bloodshed and chaos in Syria and Iraq (if for no better reason than we have no obvious way of stopping it) but we cannot risk a return to fascism in Europe. If the flood of refugees does not stop, that is exactly what will happen.

    If you have no idea what to do, you are not alone. If you’re joining the camp that has no idea what to do but is demanding that something be done, you’re not helping.

    Read the whole thing – it’s not long.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  149. 149.

    Another Holocene Human

    @redshirt: Preliminary research shows those handsfree car consoles are not reducing accidents, which is what I would expect as they’re more distracting and harder to use than a Nokia brick. It’s the cognitive distraction, stupid. You can still hit brakes if your “hand is off the wheel” which is the obsession of regulators and people who haven’t thought about this very carefully. You won’t hit brakes if you’re not fucking seeing the obstruction.

  150. 150.

    Kay

    @debbie:

    I don’t think Clinton ever pretended to be a change agent. Her selling point was always “I know how to do this within the current system”. I give her more slack on that than other people do because she never presents herself as a revolutionary. One can certainly object to her positions, but she clearly believes in a “building” approach rather than a more extreme position. To me her appeal, her strong point, is diligent and competent management. That’s what she ran on in 2008 and she’s running on it again. My sense is that’s what she is so acting as if she’s a change agent wouldn’t work anyway.

    It’s appealing to a lot of people. My eldest son is refreshingly frank about why he supports her. He says he wants someone who can “pull the levers of power”. He’s being funny, it’s a running joke directed at me because he likes to make me out to be ready to burn it all down, but this is actually how he is. That’s why he supports her. He accepts that there’s a game. He thinks she’ll be good at playing it. It’s what Donald Trump is telling his fans. “This is how it is and I will get you a better deal than these other people”.

    The way people like my son see it she is telling the truth by NOT promising big changes. It’s kind of the flip side of Bernie’s “truth telling”. My son thinks Clinton’s position is more honest because it’s more realistic.

  151. 151.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: I hope these ISIS loons aren’t as cunning as bin Laden, who was savvy enough to use our own reactionary nature against us. If I were a mad man intent on making the Western world play arch-villain in my apocalyptic religious fantasy, I’d do everything I could to help elect President Cruz.

  152. 152.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: Is there some reason we all have to say “we’re at war with radical Islam”, other than the fact that Republicans demand these phrases all the time, and have for years?

    I don’t know why this seems complicated to the media. We (the admin) don’t use the magic words because our half-assed allies (and this is a case where Rumsfeld “with the ones you have” chestnut applies) in the region have asked us not to, because it would be propaganda for groups that are already pretty damned good at that. I think the burden, as you suggest, should be on Cruz, McCain, Florin et al to explain just what the fuck using that phrase would do? To me, it sounds like some kind of dark mirror Harry Potter world (with apologies to JK Rowling) or Narnia, where if we use the unDeplorable Words, trumpets will sound and Aslan will come and eat al Bagdhadi

  153. 153.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: I’ve been avoiding the primary spats this time around, but it does just amaze me how many progressives still seen ti think the Presidency is the Green Lantern’s ring (I think I’m using that right, not much of a comic book guy). Sanders seems to have convinced himself that his “political revolution” is at hand. I remain skeptical.

  154. 154.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Amir Khalid: Bringing up Marco Rubio at a presidential debate deserves one of those Dorothy Parker comebacks that I’m not witty enough to supply.

  156. 156.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Betty Cracker: I wonder if they’re not targeting France because there is a large Mediterranean Muslim population there (Jews as well, who may end up as targets of the blowback) and they fantasize that their Aurora, CO redux will rally an army of now radicalized Muslims in France to support them. Which would indicate that they are politically and psychologically naive as hell.

    I’m probably wrong, though–these guys have been killing it on social media. They’ve got more than two braincells to rub together.

  157. 157.

    Glidwrith

    @Kay: Saying the magic words is pure tribalism, pure caveman, just like the phrase “do you take Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?” There is no thought, no thinking just the rote repeating of phrases that are tribal markers and comforts them that they are within the tribe. They do the same thing with “family” and “patriot” and a whole host of other words and it reflects the rigidity of their thinking.

  158. 158.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I’m sympathetic to the young people who want much more radical change because I think they got a raw deal. “We” – my cohort of adults- really did leave them with a host of seemingly intractable (and huge) problems and I think they are right to be pissed off about that. I made tons of mistakes as a young person- I took crazy risks and pretty much did whatever I pleased with the calm conviction that if I ever felt like “getting serious” I could rejoin the middle class and lead some kind of orderly, conventional life. I did, too. When I was thru screwing around I worked hard and am financially okay.

    They have much less room for error. One or two big mistakes early on and they’re not allowed back in. I genuinely think it’s a less generous country, a less forgiving country, for young people. I think their sense that they have been somehow given LESS, less public sector support, less generosity and forgiveness when they screw up, less security as far as jobs and finances, is a recognition of reality not whining or unrealistic demands.

  159. 159.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The green lantern ring allows anything you imagine to become manifest as long as you can hold your concentration/belief in yourself.

    So yeah, you got it right.

    The fact that grown people believe this about politics is pretty fucking shocking, but there it is. I bet they think their union could have gotten higher wages if they’d held their breath longer and people who get arrested didn’t use the right magic works with the police.

  160. 160.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Kay: Yes yes yes, you are totally right.

    When I was a young baby glbt person I read “Rubyfruit Jungle” because it was supposed to be “the” Lesbian book. The protagonist does stuff that financially came from another country (and I came of age during the go-go tech boom of the 90s). I don’t even remember the love story or whatever because I was so shocked by the economic tale.

    Now, the much poo-poohed Well of Loneliness was much more relatable. (Except for the pasted on yaye ending, which I knew was there for the censors.) It’s more about feelings and family drama and psychology, and the protagonist is part of the landed gentry so you just accept the privilege of the central character.

  161. 161.

    Kay

    @Another Holocene Human:

    I just stopped going to high school because I was bored and moved to a place where I knew one person, and he was the male version of a blonde bimbo- just not a serious person. If you had asked me I would have said “I will be fine- great, probably!” My daughter laughs about it because it’s so foreign to that generation. We had this conversation once where she was like “was there A PLAN?” No. No plan. She was in this different, later, meaner world where there were like teams of anxious adults begging her not to get pregnant and to “load up on science and math IF YOU EVER WANT A JOB- one misstep and you are DOOMED”. She remembers it as school assemblies where they were chanting incantations at them to please, please stay “on track” or it’s living under a bridge for you! It just feels grimmer and smaller to me.

  163. 163.

    Betty Cracker

    @Amir Khalid: From what I’ve read, HRC’s answer to that extraordinarily dumb question didn’t go over all that well, but I thought it was pretty good. She mentioned the need to consider the perceptions of regional partners to more effectively address terrorism and even threw GWB a bone for visiting a mosque after 9/11 and trying to stanch the anti-Muslim sentiment in the US at the time.

    As for a snarky line she could have used, maybe something like, “I realize the GOP candidates are required to use Fox News and talk radio-approved coded language when they have these discussions, but since this is CBS, can’t we just discuss how we’ll address terrorism instead of what words Roger Ailes and Rush Limbaugh want us to use when we talk about it?”

    A reference to the fact that Democrats like President Obama actually get things done in the so-called War on Terror might not come amiss either, e.g., “Why don’t we ask Osama bin Ladin which term he thinks is more descriptive? Oops — we can’t! President Obama smoked his ass while Republicans were sitting around on ‘Meet the Press’ complaining about the adjectives Democrats use.”

  164. 164.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    So I guess LI’l Marco is making tuff talk noise about NATO Article V. If it’s Tuesday, we must invade Belgium?

  165. 165.

    henqiguai

    @Kay (#172):

    They have much less room for error. One or two big mistakes early on and they’re not allowed back in. I genuinely think it’s a less generous country, a less forgiving country, for young people. I think their sense that they have been somehow given LESS, less public sector support, less generosity and forgiveness when they screw up, less security as far as jobs and finances, is a recognition of reality not whining or unrealistic demands.

    So, welcome to the world of the non-white minority population. Yeah, it’s cold out there.

  166. 166.

    Tom

    @efgoldman: Colorado is going to vote on a single-payer plan sometime next year. The high points:
    – Funded by a 10 percent payroll tax, 7% paid by employers
    – the state will be able to negotiate prescription drug prices
    – Doesn’t replace private insurers – more like a public option
    – You can still choose your own doctor.

  167. 167.

    Tom

    @redshirt: I got the chance to speed on the AutoBahn a few years back. Our rental car topped out at 112 mph and we were getting our doors blown off by passing Mercedes.

    The main difference is that their roads are well-maintained so it’s safer to drive fast.

  169. 169.

    Kay

    @henqiguai:

    Well, agreed, and I don’t know but maybe that’s why we’re seeing so much organizing activity in that group of young people. I just feel like the whole “oh, they’re not realists and they love Twitter and Iphones so what are they mad about- so shallow” is not really responsive to what are legit gripes.

    My daughter went to college and moved away but some of the people she went to high school with didn’t and she hears about their problems, brushes with the law, etc and she’s aware that she had this kind of training wheel experience going away to college that they didn’t. She had a group of adults handling things like housing and food and she didn’t work first year where they were just kind of shoved out there at 18 and the mistakes they make get such harsh treatment now. A lot of the people my age I talk to admit it- we were just allowed to fly under the radar in a way they aren’t.

  170. 170.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:
    The simple answer is that they don’t have any actual policies. They have soundbites and they have them because it’s all they have to sell, that anyone with intellectual curiosity past that of an insect would buy. And judging by my FB feed (and I’ve unfriended some over the last day and a half) a lot of people don’t want to know anything more than a couple of soundbites. And that’s even easier for someone who thinks the good world ends at our shoreline (and borders), and knows little to nothing of actual history, ours or anyone else’s.

  171. 171.

    Ruckus

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
    From Booman
    What you can do to help is to talk less and listen more.
    It might also help if he had added a simple line like “and think about someone other than yourself and from their prospective.” His words following do put that concept out there but for some it has to be said in a very direct way to register.

  172. 172.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Betty Cracker: As far as I can tell, people against military intervention managed to read that answer as insanely hawkish, and the hawks who have started up bloviating again about the monsters coming to behead us all read it as insanely pacifistic. So it was carefully conceived to appeal to nobody, I guess.

  173. 173.

    Ruckus

    @Matt McIrvin:
    Maybe the truth really is somewhere in the middle?
    And this brings up a question. If someone is running for president, should they appeal to baser instincts or to the exact opposite? Which leads to another question. Should they appeal to reality rather than the uninformed opinions of any group?
    Bare in mind that I do understand they can’t get elected without votes, the issue is should they buy them with pandering or with reasonable positions?

Comments are closed.