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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

FFS people, this was a good thing. take the win.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

Tide comes in. Tide goes out. You can’t explain that.

Maybe you would prefer that we take Joelle’s side in ALL CAPS?

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

It’s a doggy dog world.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Not all heroes wear capes.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you don’t.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Let me file that under fuck it.

Everybody saw this coming.

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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Excellent Links / Monday Morning Open Thread: “Fearing Fear Itself”

Monday Morning Open Thread: “Fearing Fear Itself”

by Anne Laurie|  November 16, 20155:20 am| 160 Comments

This post is in: Excellent Links, Foreign Affairs, Open Threads, All we want is life beyond the thunderdome

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So what of your refugee scheme, #AngelaMerkel? You will see what happened in Paris tonight multiplied massively all over Germany.

— Rod Dreher (@roddreher) November 14, 2015

This is despicable, hateful, and unworthy of the name of Christ, who was a refugee. https://t.co/GtWnCVCEw5

— Laura Turner (@lkoturner) November 14, 2015

Wise words from Professor Krugman:

Like millions of people, I’ve been obsessively following the news from Paris, putting aside other things to focus on the horror. It’s the natural human reaction. But let’s be clear: it’s also the reaction the terrorists want. And that’s something not everyone seems to understand.

Take, for example, Jeb Bush’s declaration that “this is an organized attempt to destroy Western civilization.” No, it isn’t. It’s an organized attempt to sow panic, which isn’t at all the same thing. And remarks like that, which blur that distinction and make terrorists seem more powerful than they are, just help the jihadists’ cause.

Think, for a moment, about what France is and what it represents. It has its problems — what nation doesn’t? — but it’s a robust democracy with a deep well of popular legitimacy. Its defense budget is small compared with ours, but it nonetheless retains a powerful military, and has the resources to make that military much stronger if it chooses. (France’s economy is around 20 times the size of Syria’s.) France is not going to be conquered by ISIS, now or ever. Destroy Western civilization? Not a chance.

So what was Friday’s attack about? Killing random people in restaurants and at concerts is a strategy that reflects its perpetrators’ fundamental weakness. It isn’t going to establish a caliphate in Paris. What it can do, however, is inspire fear — which is why we call it terrorism, and shouldn’t dignify it with the name of war.

The point is not to minimize the horror. It is, instead, to emphasize that the biggest danger terrorism poses to our society comes not from the direct harm inflicted, but from the wrong-headed responses it can inspire. And it’s crucial to realize that there are multiple ways the response can go wrong….

… [T]errorism is just one of many dangers in the world, and shouldn’t be allowed to divert our attention from other issues. Sorry, conservatives: when President Obama describes climate change as the greatest threat we face, he’s exactly right. Terrorism can’t and won’t destroy our civilization, but global warming could and might…

Again, the goal of terrorists is to inspire terror, because that’s all they’re capable of. And the most important thing our societies can do in response is to refuse to give in to fear.

***********

Apart from the eternal war against hatred and stupidity, what’s on the agenda for the start of another week?

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Reader Interactions

160Comments

  1. 1.

    Ruckus

    November 16, 2015 at 5:31 am

    On my way to sleep but just had an international discussion on FB about what to do and of course several people wanted to carry a gun so they could start shooting back. Thankfully there were quite a few who know that this is such a random thing and that you are much more likely to be injured/killed in an auto accident or struck by lightning than by an act of terrorism and that everyone being armed is far more dangerous. Just as a side note, judging by the cars in the huge body shop next to where I work, an awful lot of people can’t reasonably operate a car. What makes them think they could operate a gun properly (whatever the hell properly means in that situation) in an active shooting? I wonder what the death toll would be if even half the people in France had been armed?

  2. 2.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 5:32 am

    Krugman more than adequately expresses my reaction to the pants wetters insisting that Obama should not travel to Turkey.

  3. 3.

    2liberal

    November 16, 2015 at 5:36 am

    betty cracker: “My upset pick of the week is the Giants over the Patriots.” @Johngcole :
    “Today we are all Giants fans”

    Sit on it, haters!

  4. 4.

    Zinsky

    November 16, 2015 at 5:37 am

    Paul Krugman is a national treasure. Name me one person on the right with the breadth and depth. of knowledge of history, economics and politics that he has. Just. One.

  5. 5.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 5:43 am

    We (or the French, for that matter) possess the capability to muster and unleash enough firepower to kill multiple times more within a span of five minutes than the terrorist criminals ever could in a month of Sundays.

    But we don’t.

    And that is a (perhaps the) key distinction which must never be obscured by panic-based or revenge-fueled rhetoric.

  6. 6.

    raven

    November 16, 2015 at 5:47 am

    @Ruckus: There is a recent video of Peshmerga forces firing 50’s at an approaching ISIS true bomb truck. These guys are seasoned fighters and they couldn’t hit the damn thing. Finally they let go with a German rocket and it hit,

  7. 7.

    Ryan

    November 16, 2015 at 5:47 am

    @Ruckus: I wonder how many ruined pairs of pants we would have seen.

  8. 8.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 6:05 am

    @NotMax

    Addendum.

    Because we deem ourselves as (however imperfectly) better than that, because we deem ourselves as more (however imperfectly) civilized than that, because we deem the costs as too dear to pay. These are all implicit strengths which must never be abandoned or shucked aside as if they were last year’s fashions.

  9. 9.

    Baud

    November 16, 2015 at 6:08 am

    @raven:

    Finally they let go with a German rocket and it hit,

    So whats youre saying is, Americans need to start open carrying German rockets.

  10. 10.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 6:11 am

    @Baud

    Nah, the emissions software has all been tampered with.

    :)

  11. 11.

    David Koch

    November 16, 2015 at 6:11 am

    @Ruckus: ask them if airliners should allow passengers to carry guns so they can shoot back at hijackers.

    ask them if grade schoolers should be allowed to pack glocks in the lunch boxes for emergency use.

  12. 12.

    Schlemazel

    November 16, 2015 at 6:11 am

    @Ruckus:
    THat is unknowable but what I do know is that guns are used to kill about the same number of people as died in the Paris attacks every week in the US. Its a bit of a trade off isn’t it? The chance that, perhaps, some of the terrorist killing could have been prevented in exchange for the same number of deaths 52 times a year.

  13. 13.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 16, 2015 at 6:12 am

    Watching Morning Joe, Joe’s wetting his pants(he may be shitting them as well).

  14. 14.

    Amir Khalid

    November 16, 2015 at 6:14 am

    I need to start going to the movies again.

  15. 15.

    raven

    November 16, 2015 at 6:15 am

    Joe is wetting the bed big time. They show a video of Obama clearly saying the ISIS is “contained in Iraq and Syria” and all these motherfuckers are freaking out because of Paris.

  16. 16.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 16, 2015 at 6:17 am

    Since FYWP won’t let me append my previous comment, I’ve been keeping up on the treads here while I’ve been setting up my new computer. I’ve got everything working except my camera viewing software that only will view 2 cameras off my camera server. I think it’s a problem with McAffee that came with this machine(I’ve got Norton on the other one that the cam viewer works on). On the positive side, the machine is extremely fast.

  17. 17.

    raven

    November 16, 2015 at 6:17 am

    Oh, Obama doesn’t LOOK engaged.

  18. 18.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 16, 2015 at 6:18 am

    @Amir Khalid: Why start now? The last movie I saw in a theater was 10 years ago and before that it’d been about 15 years.

  19. 19.

    mclaren

    November 16, 2015 at 6:18 am

    The West prepares to double down on stupid, repeating failed military tactics, big-swinging-dick hi-tech superweapons that don’t work, and burning brown babies in the poorest Third World countries:

    The Paris terror attacks are likely to galvanize a stronger global military response to Islamic State, after a U.S.-led air war that has lasted more than a year has failed to contain a group now proving itself to be a growing worldwide threat.

    The United States, long accused of taking an incremental approach to the struggle, is under growing political pressure at home and abroad to do more and it is expected to examine ways to intensify the campaign, including through expanded air power.

    U.S. officials say Washington will look in particular to European and Arab allies to step up their military participation in the war in Iraq and Syria.

    Source: “After Paris attacks, pressure builds for big military response to Islamic State,” Reuters, 14 November 2015.

    Meanwhile, Colonel Andrew Bacevich sounds a rare note of sanity amid the deafening charivari of testosterone-induced militarism:

    President Francois Hollande’s response to Friday’s vicious terrorist attacks in France, now attributed to the Islamic State, was immediate and uncompromising. “We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless,” he vowed. (..)

    It’s not as if the outside world hasn’t already given pitiless war a try. The Soviet Union spent all of the 1980s attempting to pacify Afghanistan and succeeded only in killing a million or so Afghans while creating an incubator for Islamic radicalism. Beginning in 2003, the United States attempted something similar in Iraq and ended up producing similarly destabilizing results. (..)

    In proposing to pour yet more fuel on that fire, Hollande demonstrates a crippling absence of imagination, one that has characterized recent Western statesmanship more generally when it comes to the Islamic world. There, simply trying harder will not suffice as a basis of policy.

    It’s past time for the West, and above all for the United States as the West’s primary military power, to consider trying something different.

    Rather than assuming an offensive posture, the West should revert to a defensive one. Instead of attempting to impose its will on the Greater Middle East, it should erect barriers to protect itself from the violence emanating from that quarter…. Hollande views the tragedy that has befallen Paris as a summons to yet more war. The rest of us would do well to see it as a moment to reexamine the assumptions that have enmeshed the West in a war that it cannot win and should not perpetuate.

    Such an approach posits that, confronted with the responsibility to do so, the peoples of the Greater Middle East will prove better equipped to solve their problems than are policy makers back in Washington, London, or Paris. It rejects as presumptuous any claim that the West can untangle problems of vast historical and religious complexity to which Western folly contributed. It rests on this core principle: Do no (further) harm.

    Hollande views the tragedy that has befallen Paris as a summons to yet more war. The rest of us would do well to see it as a moment to reexamine the assumptions that have enmeshed the West in a war that it cannot win and should not perpetuate.

    Source: “A war the West cannot win,” Col. Andrew Bacevich, The Boston Globe, 14 November 2015.

    We now return you to the regularly scheduled screams of “Nuke their ass and take their gas!” by the giant-foam-finger-hoisting crowd of conservatives and liberals alike.

  20. 20.

    Mustang Bobby

    November 16, 2015 at 6:19 am

    All of the bedwetters are now saying that we shouldn’t admit any Syrian refugees; Jeb is moderating that to say let in Syrians, but only if they’re Christians. Um, yeah, and how can you tell who’s Christian? Check for stigmata and a note from Pat Robertson?

  21. 21.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 16, 2015 at 6:19 am

    @raven: I just CLICKED it off.

  22. 22.

    David Koch

    November 16, 2015 at 6:20 am

    Noooooow, the wingnuts love the French.

    Just 10 days ago ¿Jeb ? was mocking the “french work week”, using as a derogatory to attack little marco.

    Just 10 years ago the wingnuts were calling the French, “cheese eating surrender monkeys” and “axis of weasels”

    Fixxed news launched boycotts of France.

    Congress changed the name of french fries.

    In 2012 McCain called France, “an aging movie actress, living off her looks”.

    Now they love, love, love France.

    C’est la guerre

  23. 23.

    David Koch

    November 16, 2015 at 6:26 am

    @raven: Were the media & the wingnuts engaged when terrorists slaughtered 147 at a Kenyan college just 7 months ago?

    I didnt see anybody changing their online profile pic to Kenyan flags or endless around-the-clock breaking news coverage.

  24. 24.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    November 16, 2015 at 6:29 am

    @David Koch: I’ll give ’em a pass on the profile pic. That’s got to be made available for most of them, and even then a lot of folks can’t figure out how to find the button to do it.

  25. 25.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 6:30 am

    @Ruckus: Don’t you know all drivers are above average? Besides, that light post jumped out and hit their car and there was nothing they could do.

  26. 26.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    November 16, 2015 at 6:30 am

    @David Koch: The media doesn’t vacation in Kenya and ‘you know who’ is ‘from’ Kenya.

  27. 27.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 6:32 am

    @2liberal: I stupidly ventured into a restaurant during the end of the game and the whole place was in uproar, apparently supporting the Pats. Remember, this is in North Central Florida, a strange, swampy land known as Gator Country. And I am a pilgrim from New England who has always, always hated the Pats and, especially, Pats fans. Pats fans in Gainesville? Seriously? Just call me a Hatriot.

  28. 28.

    David Koch

    November 16, 2015 at 6:36 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Ahhh. that’s the key. I didn’t think of that. The media will freak out when it comes to places they vacation. That’s why Africa, Indonesia, Beirut, Tasmania gets no attention.

  29. 29.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 16, 2015 at 6:38 am

    @raven: Oh, Obama doesn’t LOOK engaged.
    When he’s having a one-on-one conversation with Putin at a conference of wold leaders the capital of a country that borders Iraq and Syria, which capital was attack by Daesh a few weeks ago, he doesn’t look engaged? Okay. I guess he should scratch up his face more, jut out his chin a bit.

    Was that Scarborough himself, or one of his sidekicks?

  30. 30.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 6:38 am

    @NotMax:

    We (or the French, for that matter) possess the capability to muster and unleash enough firepower to kill multiple times more within a span of five minutes than the terrorist criminals ever could in a month of Sundays.

    But we don’t.

    Actually, we do. Were you asleep for the past decade and a half?

  31. 31.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 16, 2015 at 6:40 am

    It’s the natural human reaction.

    I must not be natural.

    My week is starting with a trip to the ER. The wife took a tumble last night and may have broken her leg.

  32. 32.

    Waldo

    November 16, 2015 at 6:41 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Not surprised. This one is lighting up all the wing nut fear responses: paranoia, xenophobia, Islamophobia, racism, gun-nuttery etc.

  33. 33.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 6:41 am

    @Mustang Bobby: Yeah, Pat Robertson, the con man, now there’s a super Christian.

    I tried to recall how the Catholic calendar (post Vatican II, natch) goes and despite the fact that I used to do music liturgy and was in there multiple days a week all year round I had a lot of freaking trouble. For one thing, the Missal told you what time it was, so why memorize it, and secondly, there’s a disconnect between the traditional German holiday stuff we were doing at home and what was going on at church every week. Except for Advent–that was pretty well coordinated. Meh.

  34. 34.

    mclaren

    November 16, 2015 at 6:41 am

    Occasionally Harkins would mouth phrases about this being a political war, but he did not really believe them. The American military command thought this was like any other war: you searched out the enemy, fixed him, killed him and went home. The only measure of the war the Americans were interested in was quantitative; and quantitatively, given the immense American fire power, helicopters, fighter-bombers and artillery pieces, it went very well. That the body count might be a misleading indicator did not penetrate the command; large stacks of dead Vietcong were taken as signs of success. That the French statistics had also been very good right up until 1954, when they gave up, made no impression. (..)
    At an early intergovernmental meeting on the importance of psychological warfare, one of Harkins’ key staffmen, Brigadier General Gerald Kelleher, quickly dismissed that theory. his job, he said, was to kill Vietcong. But the French, responded a political officer named Douglas Pike, had killed a lot of Vietcong and they had not won. “Didn’t kill enough Vietcong, answered Kelleher.

    Source: “The Best and the Brightest,” David Halberstam, 1972, Random House.

  35. 35.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 6:44 am

    @David Koch:

    Were the media & the wingnuts engaged when terrorists slaughtered 147 at a Kenyan college just 7 months ago?

    I didnt see anybody changing their online profile pic to Kenyan flags or endless around-the-clock breaking news coverage.

    American football trotted out ersatz giant French Flag with color guard at begin of game. Where is Lebanese flag for Beirut? Iraq flag for our great allies devastated by an attack on Baghdad?

    Even lefty spaces on twitter according to my wife are being total hypocrites about this, wanting everyone to change their profile pic but, as you said, no such response to those horrific attacks in Kenya. WTFBBQ people, seems like the person you should be angrily calling out is yourself.

  36. 36.

    mclaren

    November 16, 2015 at 6:44 am

    @NotMax:

    We (or the French, for that matter) possess the capability to muster and unleash enough firepower to kill multiple times more within a span of five minutes than the terrorist criminals ever could in a month of Sundays.

    But we don’t.

    So those 273 bombing strikes by French aircraft against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, flying almost 1300 missions, are just a figment of our imagination?

  37. 37.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 6:48 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Kenya doesn’t have the execrable Eleanor Beardsley stationed there. Instead, the far more grounded, sane-sounding Ofeibea Quist-Arcton reports from Kenya for NPR.

  38. 38.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 6:49 am

    @David Koch: A lot of ‘man on the street’ comments have been to that effect. “I visited Paris two years ago, it was so genial. [emoticons]”

    You couldn’t afford African Safari Vacation or they’re out of fashion now. Fuck Kenya/Nigeria/Ethiopia/Libya/Egypt.

  39. 39.

    Schlemazel

    November 16, 2015 at 6:50 am

    @David Koch:
    I think it is simply “they don’t look like us”

    You know . . . white

  40. 40.

    Keith G

    November 16, 2015 at 6:50 am

    Regarding the transit or evacuation of refugees/migrants. I like in what Norway is doing and what GB is proposing. The plan is to send their aid workers to refugee camps and at that point separate refugees whom they will take or bring back to the Western countries and settle. They will then essentially closeout any chance of entry to refugees who just show up at their borders. It is not a perfect, but does address two important goals. The first of relocating those who have a true and immediate safety concern and second, assisting the security screening process.

  41. 41.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 6:51 am

    @Waldo: Fear and hatred is one hell of an adrenaline rush.

    Our beloved human garbage is enjoying this.

  42. 42.

    mclaren

    November 16, 2015 at 6:51 am

    Oh, and incidentally…I keep coming back to the fact that scientists say that the Middle East will be too hot for human habitation by 2100. If you think there’s a refugee crisis now, wait till you see what happens when the entire population of the Middle East tries to relocate itself.

    Is anyone planning for this?

    Global climate change will create a humanitarian catastrophe that dwarfs 9/11, the Paris attacks, and everything else put together. I guess I have to keep wondering why America continues to piss away a trillion dollars a year on a national security/military apparatus that accomplishes nothing, while utterly ignoring the much bigger threat of global warming and treating it as though it doesn’t exist.

  43. 43.

    David Koch

    November 16, 2015 at 6:57 am

    The French adore Obama.

    Just listen to the massive ovation they gave him at Normandy

  44. 44.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 7:01 am

    @Keith G: It keeps them and their suffering (and these people ARE suffering) “over there” and away from domestic TV cameras and domestic activists. I don’t see how it enhances security; you can screen at your doorstep. If you do it remotely you’re trusting no person and papers get swapped in transit.

  45. 45.

    Another Holocene Human

    November 16, 2015 at 7:02 am

    @mclaren: You should study it and find out.

  46. 46.

    jamey

    November 16, 2015 at 7:03 am

    @2liberal: 18-1. Push all the chips into the middle of the table, and we ALWAYS beat the Patriots.

  47. 47.

    Baud

    November 16, 2015 at 7:04 am

    @raven:

    Oh, Obama doesn’t LOOK engaged.

    Of course not. He’s already married.

    Duh.

  48. 48.

    NorthLeft12

    November 16, 2015 at 7:21 am

    I just wanted to ask a question that I have been thinking about for awhile now; If ISIS is such an existential threat, why is Israel not stepping up and attempting to engage them? Why are Western Europe and Canada and the US “leading” [in quotes because we are really not doing that much] the battle against ISIS?

    I have my own thoughts on why Israel is relatively neutral, but I would love to hear from the commenters here….especially if they can link to any articles where any columnists/journalists have discussed this. Thanks.

  49. 49.

    Keith G

    November 16, 2015 at 7:22 am

    @Another Holocene Human: Yes they are suffering. And more will more greatly suffer if public support (such as it is) for relocation substantially or completely shuts down.

    As Obama taught us during the Obama Care Odyssey, the perfect design may have to be scrapped in order to get to a policy that can be scaffolded with some form of enduring public support.

    I guess the good news in this is that there is a sort of laboratory of the European states in place on this. We will be able to follow the results.

  50. 50.

    Keith G

    November 16, 2015 at 7:27 am

    @NorthLeft12: A parallel question might be: Are there ISIS cells developing within Palestinian areas and if not, why not?

    I would think that if ISIS held land in southern Syria and then began “visiting” Israel, we would see the action that you are wondering about. I wonder if Bibi’s attention and resources are focused elsewhere.

  51. 51.

    max

    November 16, 2015 at 7:30 am

    @Ruckus: On my way to sleep but just had an international discussion on FB about what to do and of course several people wanted to carry a gun so they could start shooting back.

    ‘You think Daesh gives two shits about you? Are you going to Paris or something? WTF?’

    @Matt McIrvin: Actually, we do. Were you asleep for the past decade and a half?

    Nuclear bombs, I believe, are what he is referring to. But also some serious nasty city-leveling bombing.

    @NorthLeft12: If ISIS is such an existential threat, why is Israel not stepping up and attempting to engage them?

    Because Bibi is a crazy asshole. The Israelis responded to the Paris attack by hitting Hizbullah really hard. (They’re fine with Daesh, and they’re allied with the Saudis so they don’t care. Daesh kills lots of Muslims, and they like that.)

    Incidentally, the Israelis have been providing medical care to wounded al-Nusra fighters operating near Golan.

    max
    [‘Charming, I must say.’]

  52. 52.

    NorthLeft12

    November 16, 2015 at 7:33 am

    @NorthLeft12: I found this at the top of Google;

    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/analysis/2015/10/25/Why-has-Israel-gone-quiet-over-ISIS-.html

    It sort of confirms my thoughts, particularly wrt Israel’s ongoing battle with the Palestinians, and their strict practice of national interest. Ie. if someone has not directly attacked Israel or any of it’s citizens, they do not engage. Israel does not believe in being a police force for other countries’ interests. They seem to prefer to encourage other countries to step up and take that role.

  53. 53.

    NorthLeft12

    November 16, 2015 at 7:39 am

    @max: Thanks for the response, but in this case, I think Bibi is as crazy as a fox. Having other countries eliminate your enemies for you, and absorbing the cost and casualties is smart business. ISIS is doing Hamas some damage, so why would Israel seek to destroy them? Enemy of my enemy kind of philosophy.

  54. 54.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 16, 2015 at 7:42 am

    Kevin Drum:

    On Sunday night, France launched a series of airstrikes against ISIS in retaliation for the Paris attacks. The Washington Post called it a “furious assault.” The New York Times called it “aggressive,” CNN said it was a “major bombardment,” and McClatchy called it a “fierce bombing campaign.” The French themselves called it “massive,” and the LA Times, Fox News, and the Guardian agreed.

    The French assault comprised 10 aircraft and 20 bombs.

    Since the beginning of the American-led air campaign against ISIS, the coalition has launched 8,000 airstrikes and dropped about 22,000 bombs on ISIS sites in Iraq and Syria. In other words, we’ve been launching about 17 airstrikes and dropping nearly 50 bombs per day. Every day. For over a year.

    And yet this campaign is routinely described as feckless and weak.

  55. 55.

    RSA

    November 16, 2015 at 7:47 am

    @Ruckus:

    Thankfully there were quite a few who know that this is such a random thing and that you are much more likely to be injured/killed in an auto accident or struck by lightning than by an act of terrorism and that everyone being armed is far more dangerous.

    I commented on a related issue last night. If France were more like the U.S. with respect to guns, they could expect about 120 people to be killed every year by guns accidentally, and they might see their homicide rate triple. Who needs terrorists when we have the NRA?

  56. 56.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 7:48 am

    I’ve noticed that a bunch of stories about mass terrorist attacks from the past year or so (a Paris-style mass shooting and suicide bombing in Kenya, a bombing in Ankara) are getting passed around social media as if they were things that just happened. It’s as if people are trying to make up for lost attention. But it helps to check the date stamp.

  57. 57.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 8:03 am

    @raven:

    The only thing that matters to most Americans is that our leader LOOKS engaged. He can always be scrubbing brush in his dreams.

  58. 58.

    Satby

    November 16, 2015 at 8:04 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: oh, no! I hope she’s ok.

  59. 59.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 8:06 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Good luck. I hope you’re wrong.

  60. 60.

    David Koch

    November 16, 2015 at 8:08 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    60 minutes had a good segment on the bombing campaign a few weeks ago and it does looks effective. they’re taking them out left-and-right.

  61. 61.

    Kay

    November 16, 2015 at 8:10 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    And every single local news source picked it up and presented it the same way.

    They have to get better at this. We heard all the earnest discussion and hand-wringing after the coverage of the Iraq run-up and invasion and apparently nothing has changed.

  62. 62.

    SFAW

    November 16, 2015 at 8:10 am

    @Zinsky:

    Name me one person on the right with the breadth and depth. of knowledge of history, economics and politics that he has. Just. One.

    Jim Hoft
    Amity Shlaes
    Jonah Goldberg
    Louie Gohmert
    Sean Hannity

    and about a bazillion more.

    Oh, wait – you said “knowledge”? Never mind.

  63. 63.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    November 16, 2015 at 8:10 am

    @David Koch: There’s a big component of that, of course – “we vacationed in Paris last year!!1” But there’s another crucial component: France and the US are in NATO together. We have treaty and mutual defense agreements with them. If Hollande decides to go to “war” in Syria against Daesh, we’ll be going as well.

    We aren’t going to war in Lebanon or Kenya or similar places as a result of recent attacks there because that type of legal framework isn’t in place in those places.

    I hope that Hollande tones down his rhetoric and thinks clearly about how to proceed. France needs to learn from our mistakes in the early 2000s (and later).

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  64. 64.

    Satby

    November 16, 2015 at 8:15 am

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: This.

  65. 65.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 8:16 am

    I wonder if Putin will lay off bombing the moderates and instead focus on ISIS.

  66. 66.

    gene108

    November 16, 2015 at 8:17 am

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    Map is about a year and a half old, but I do not think much has changed. We have troops in Kenya and Nigeria and 10 other African countries.

  67. 67.

    Jack the Second

    November 16, 2015 at 8:17 am

    @Ruckus: I think there’s a very dangerous fantasy which goes “That is terrible, but it wouldn’t happen to me because…”. Guns are part of that fantasy: “… because I carry a gun.”

    It’s like an antidote to empathy. Instead of trying to understand problems and situations and other people, you draw a line between yourself and them. “… because I don’t dress like that.” “… because I don’t go in that neighborhood after dark.” “… because I drive more carefully when I’m drunk.” “… because my religion is the correct one.” “… because I’m white.”

    I think most of us do it some times; it is very comforting to tell yourself bad things can’t happen to you.

  68. 68.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 16, 2015 at 8:17 am

    John Oliver on the Paris attacks. The man nails it.

    OK. So I can’t make the link button work. I assume google will. Oliver actually vented his spleen and then made me laugh.

  69. 69.

    gene108

    November 16, 2015 at 8:22 am

    @gene108:

    LA Times Article about the US role in Africa.

    Trying to keep our presence small, but help and improve local governments in battling terrorists.

  70. 70.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 8:23 am

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    You can add the link in the editing box after you post your comment.

  71. 71.

    low-tech cyclist

    November 16, 2015 at 8:25 am

    Rod Dreher: “So what of your refugee scheme, #AngelaMerkel? You will see what happened in Paris tonight multiplied massively all over Germany.”

    As Jesus said, “get behind me, Satan! You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men. Do not let your heart be troubled, and do not be afraid.” And as another NT writer added, “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear.”

    Yet we have this supposed Christian sowing fear rather than casting it out. Pretty worthless.

  72. 72.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    November 16, 2015 at 8:25 am

    @gene108: True, we have troops all over the place. But you agree, I hope, that it would likely be qualitatively and quantitatively different if we were with France in a NATO sanctioned war in Syria. (As opposed to “just” a bombing campaign.)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  73. 73.

    MomSense

    November 16, 2015 at 8:26 am

    Our feline overlords took the stage at the G20 summit.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-16/sneaky-stray-cats-take-the-main-stage-ahead-of-g20-summit/6946004

  74. 74.

    max

    November 16, 2015 at 8:27 am

    @NorthLeft12: Thanks for the response, but in this case, I think Bibi is as crazy as a fox.

    I don’t anything particularly foxy about the guy (cf CAST LEAD) in terms of fighting. He’s very good at political manipulation and horseshit, but the dude is really casual about actual policy. But then, I refer to him as mini-Mussolini for a reason.

    Having other countries eliminate your enemies for you, and absorbing the cost and casualties is smart business.

    If that was all there was to it, I would not object so harshly. I would point out that Bibi is perfectly happy to damage US interests for non-existent gains, which is surely not in the national interest of Israel.

    ISIS is doing Hamas some damage, so why would Israel seek to destroy them? Enemy of my enemy kind of philosophy.

    Daesh isn’t doing a goddamn bit of damage. They are doing damage to Hizbullah because Hizbullah is assisting Assad, but that’s mostly a fight with the non-Daesh rebels. It isn’t doing much damage to Iran either, because Iran can afford it. They want Assad gone because of Iran because they think they can cut off Hizbullah’s support that way, never mind that Hizbullah is preoccupied with Syria.

    Problem is, is that if they were to actually succeed in what they were trying to do, it would unleash a vortex of destruction that makes the current civil war look like a cake walk. The nasty Sunni group that comes out on top of that fight is likely to be suicidally determined to take on Israel, which Hizbullah is not. It’s purely a ridiculously short-term strategy very typical of neo-con thinking that tends strongly to catastrophic long-term consequences.

    @NorthLeft12: They seem to prefer to encourage other countries to step up and take that role.

    They want the United States to invade and conquer Syria, Iraq and Iran, just like the line they’ve been pushing since 2001, yes.

    max
    [‘They seem to think American support for Israel would survive such a disaster. That is deeply stupid.’]

  75. 75.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 16, 2015 at 8:32 am

    @debbie: I tried. I clicked the link symbol and pop up box appeared asking me to paste in the url, which I did. I appeared in my comment on my screen, but when I posted my comment, nothing showed.

  76. 76.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 8:35 am

    @Jack the Second: On the other hand, “that’s terrible, but it probably won’t happen to me because it’s an inherently low-probability event” can be perfectly rational.

    One of the purposes of these Mumbai 2008- or Paris-style coordinated attacks, or the multiple hijackings in September 2001, is to give people the impression that the terrorists are everywhere and the attacks will increase until everyone is dead. In reality, of course, it doesn’t happen that way, even 9/11 only managed to directly kill a few thousand people through an extraordinary stroke of luck, but a fog of war always descends and multiplies the numbers in the short term.

    But then there’s a weird sort of apocalypticism-by-proxy that happens. People who are not, according to their statements, so afraid of the terrorists, because they know their chances of being killed by terrorists are low, but are afraid of what our society will do to itself in response; but then their reaction isn’t to try to put up a firebreak and get people to react more rationally, it’s to get increasingly freaked and recommend more and more brutal military/security responses, which makes the bad social reaction more likely rather than less.

    I saw a lot of this two-step after 9/11, especially from military and security experts and liberal hawks, and it seems like a lot of the same people are doing it now. I’d rather not get caught up in it.

  77. 77.

    Keith G

    November 16, 2015 at 8:36 am

    @debbie: Putin might well do that when the West shelves the “Assad crossed a red line and he must go” thing.

    Bet on that happening. This might well work out okay for Obama and the West, as they more or less screwed up the Assad gotta go stuff. Now they can reset.

  78. 78.

    Baud

    November 16, 2015 at 8:44 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Hoping for good news.

  79. 79.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    November 16, 2015 at 8:45 am

    @debbie: I don’t know why but I thought you called PBO a “scrubbing brush” at first, when of course you were referring to GWB at the ranch, playing cowboy.

    Then my mind wandered to, What household cleaning supply is each GOP candidate, and I couldn’t get any further than “ammonia mixed with bleach”.

  80. 80.

    Baud

    November 16, 2015 at 8:45 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    This. I was watching the news this morning and the anti-Dems have such a hard on right now.

  81. 81.

    Belafon

    November 16, 2015 at 8:47 am

    @NotMax: This is why we need to be able to rate comments.

  82. 82.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 8:47 am

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    That happened to me too. EIther nothing showed or the whole post turned into a link. That’s how I hit upon pasting the url into the editing box.

  83. 83.

    Elizabelle

    November 16, 2015 at 8:49 am

    @Baud: If it lasts longer than four hours, damage may result.

    Could not have paid me to watch Republican Joe this morning. We should send the man and Mika some Depends.

  84. 84.

    MomSense

    November 16, 2015 at 8:49 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    OH NO! I hope she is ok.

  85. 85.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 8:50 am

    @Ruckus: Well if the French start carrying guns like us Murkins, then they can begin to bury their children like us Murkins when a 5 year old shoots a 3 year old or the French version of adam Lanza kills 20 first graders.

  86. 86.

    Belafon

    November 16, 2015 at 8:51 am

    @mclaren:

    So those 273 bombing strikes by French aircraft against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, flying almost 1300 missions, are just a figment of our imagination?

    Those bombs are a whisper of what could be done. When we joke about turning the Middle East into a glass parking lot, it’s not really a joke.

  87. 87.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 16, 2015 at 8:51 am

    @Satby: @debbie: It looks like I won’t be taking her to the ER after all. She woke up crying from the pain, could barely get out of bed. I had to help her in and out of the shower (after insisting she take it while sitting), but by the time she got dressed it wasn’t quite as bad so she decided to go to work and call the orthopedist who fixed her rotator cuff and saw her the last time she broke her leg. By the time she had her lunch made she was almost walking normally.

    At first she said it felt just like when she broke it before (fibula) but then when she described it to me it sounded more like a torn/partially torn ligament. Now I’m thinking it is just a deep bone bruise. Those hurt like hell but get better with use. Then if you are inactive for a while, they will hurt like hell again.

    Keeping my fingers crossed, but she is still calling the orthopedist.

  88. 88.

    Betty Cracker

    November 16, 2015 at 8:56 am

    @Keith G:

    This might well work out okay for Obama and the West, as they more or less screwed up the Assad gotta go stuff. Now they can reset.

    That is my hope as well.

    @OzarkHillbilly: Poor thing. I hope she heals quickly.

  89. 89.

    Thursday

    November 16, 2015 at 8:56 am

    My apologies if this has been discussed in another thread, but is there anyone else having a problem with the main page only updating upon a refresh? I mean that once I type the URL and end up at the main page, it just has the stories that were there the last time I came to the site. It only updates with the most recent material when I refresh. It’s not a huge deal, but it is vaguely annoying.

  90. 90.

    MattF

    November 16, 2015 at 8:57 am

    @Matt McIrvin: There’s always going to be people who are ready to be misled and stampeded into violence; there are always people ready to try to spark the stampeding. One lesson from 9/11 and the Iraq war that followed is that expertise and IQ have very little to do with where you end up in this kind of question.

    I remember seeing Colin Powell’s WMD presentation back then and thinking ‘That’s a lie.’ I had no proof, but I knew it.

  91. 91.

    MattF

    November 16, 2015 at 8:58 am

    @Thursday: Same thing happens to me. Someone said it was probably deliberate and due to turning up the ‘aggressive’ knob on caching somewhere in the system.

  92. 92.

    rikyrah

    November 16, 2015 at 9:00 am

    Good Morning, Everyone:)

  93. 93.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 9:01 am

    @max

    Yes.

    The horrendous smaller scale exceptional instances of recent times (for example, daisy cutters in Afghanistan, the horrible, nearly unfathomable atrocities committed on the civilian populace of Falluja by the dropping of white phosphorous (melts flesh), fuel-air bombs (asphyxiation) and cluster bombs) stand as stolid evidence of what venality unleashing the fuller technology of the military wreaks.

    Our hands are most certainly not clean, but hope holds fast that the stains and scars upon them are recognized for what they are and can act as restraining mitigants to rash impulse.

  94. 94.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 9:02 am

    @raven: If they ran the full quote it also included that ‘ISIS hasn’t been decapitated yet’. But lets take a step back and a somewhat longer view impossible I know. The US ‘contained’ Japan at the battle of Midway in 1942. The Brits ‘contained’ the Germans at El Alamain in 1942 and the Russians ‘contained’ the Germans at Stalingrad in Feb. 1943. Yet there still were several more years of bloody war before Germany/Japan were ‘decapitated’ i.e. defeated. According to several articles over the weekend Daesh has lost about 25% of the territory that it had overran last in the last year, There is no green lateran overnight magic bullet in winning a war. The GOP is however more invested in sound bits and Obama is responsible for every bad thing that has happened since the end of the last ice age.

  95. 95.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 9:03 am

    @MattF: My own responses in those days were not rational, and what scares me is that they seemed rational. A lot of reasoning backwards from the response one wants for sub-rational reasons to some kind of logical justification.

    I find myself wanting now to be irrationally pacifist just as a crude attempt at self-correction.

  96. 96.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 16, 2015 at 9:05 am

    @Thursday: It happens to me in Firefox, in fact if I comment in FF I don’t see it. If I switch to Internet Exploder, the problems go away. Normally I would think the problem is all on my end, but right now I’m thinking it’s a little bit of both.

  97. 97.

    rikyrah

    November 16, 2015 at 9:09 am

    Cotton connects disability benefits, drug addiction
    11/13/15 03:52 PM
    facebook twitter 5 save share group 46
    By Steve Benen
    We’ve arguably reached the point at which high-profile Republicans should probably stop talking about addiction issues altogether. MSNBC’s Aliyah Frumin reported this week on the latest discouraging comments.
    Republican Sen. Tom Cotton of Arkansas is suggesting there is a correlation between those who receive Social Security disability benefits and drug addiction.

    During a speech at the conservative Heritage Foundation on Monday, the lawmaker said “It’s hard to say what came first or caused the other – population decline or increased disability usage [in several Appalachian counties]. Or maybe economic stagnation caused both.” Either way, Cotton argued, there seems to be what he called a “disability tipping point” – when such benefits become a norm instead of a last-resort safety net program.
    With this in mind, the far-right freshman added, “Population continues to fall and a downward spiral kicks in, driving once-thriving communities into further decline. Not only that, but once this kind of spiral begins, communities could begin to suffer other social plagues as well, such as heroin or meth addiction and associated crime.”

    At a certain level, I suppose it’s a good thing when policymakers take an interest in addiction issues and look for root causes and possible solutions, but the idea of connecting disability benefits and “heroin or meth addiction” is hard to take seriously without evidence.

    But just as alarming is the political pattern that’s begun to emerge. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) recently made the case that heroin addiction only afflicts the unemployed. “If you work all day long, you don’t have time to do heroin,” he recently told a New Hampshire audience.

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/cotton-connects-disability-benefits-drug-addiction

  98. 98.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 16, 2015 at 9:09 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I find myself wanting now to be irrationally pacifist just as a crude attempt at self-correction.

    It is my default response in the immediate wake of everyone of these things. I have a saying:

    Don’t just do something, sit there.

    the idea being to think first, then act.

  99. 99.

    Peale

    November 16, 2015 at 9:13 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: just like Putin is seen as decisive! Even though it took four years for him to commit to sending troops.

  100. 100.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 9:16 am

    @rikyrah:

    Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) recently made the case that heroin addiction only afflicts the unemployed. “If you work all day long, you don’t have time to do heroin,” he recently told a New Hampshire audience.

    Rand must have slept through the 1990s.

  101. 101.

    Steeplejack

    November 16, 2015 at 9:20 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Ouch! Best wishes for your wife, and I hope it’s not a broken leg.

  102. 102.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 9:21 am

    @rikyrah

    If Cotton and Paul had their racist heads any further up their respective butts, their lips would require a barber.

  103. 103.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 9:30 am

    OT but popcorn time –

    daughter of ex-Vice President Dick Cheney, quickly said she was “seriously considering running and will make a final decision in the next couple of weeks.”

  104. 104.

    Betty Cracker

    November 16, 2015 at 9:34 am

    @D58826: Which daughter and running for what? (You probably would have included a link if the site wasn’t borked!)

  105. 105.

    MattF

    November 16, 2015 at 9:35 am

    @Betty Cracker: Liz, running for Representative from Wyoming. Current rep is retiring. See Crooks and Liars.

    ETA: Doesn’t seem to be front page there. I got the article by googling.

  106. 106.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 9:36 am

    @D58826: Sorry. Liz and Wyoming

  107. 107.

    Amir Khalid

    November 16, 2015 at 9:41 am

    @MattF:
    Not Liz’s first run for Congress; the MSNBC story about it mentions a run against an incumbent Republican Senator last year, which some in the Juicitariat may remember. It featured a public row with her sister over same-sex marriage.

  108. 108.

    Jeffro

    November 16, 2015 at 9:42 am

    Hey check it out – an anonymous, worldwide hacker collective is going to (cyber-) war with a multi-country religiously-inspired militia/terrorist group:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/anonymous-isis_5649610ae4b045bf3defc173?cps=gravity_5060_-6735471143398427095

    Complicated times.

  109. 109.

    MattF

    November 16, 2015 at 9:43 am

    @Amir Khalid: Liz seems hell-bent on getting a permanent job in DC. Join her dad, whose soul is already there.

  110. 110.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 9:46 am

    @D58826

    Aha, so those “serious health problems in the family” cited when she dropped out of contention for the Senate race in January of ’14 aren’t so serious after all.

  111. 111.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 9:46 am

    And to follow up on the ‘contain’ freak out. What is happening with Daesh is complicated. Just a couple for examples from a number of articles from over the weekend:
    1. in Afghanistan: Isis-backed fighters are making inroads in Afghan provinces and are in power battles with Taliban forces.
    2. the Turks keep bombing our allies the Kurds
    3. our biggest ally in the region Saudi Arabia funds the extremist Wahhabi version of Islam that is the religious basis of groups like ISIS
    4. Assad and ISIS are mortal enemies but as long as ISIS is attacking some of the other anti-assad groups then Assad turns a blind eye (which helps to explain Putin’s choice of targets)
    5. At the moment Iran might well be our best ally in fighting ISIS in Syria but our worst ally in Iraq if we want to stabilize Anbar province.

    Now fit that on a campaign bumper stick that Ben Carson can understand.

  112. 112.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 16, 2015 at 9:48 am

    So over at the Reality Based community, they are still trying to decide if one should go back in time to kill baby Hitler. So unimaginative. If I could go back in time, I would not kill the baby Hitler, I would take the baby Hitler away from his family and give it to a kind loving Jewish family to raise as one of their own. That way if he did decide to go for a “Final Solution” he’d have to start with himself and that would be the end of it.

  113. 113.

    MattF

    November 16, 2015 at 9:48 am

    @D58826: “Exterminate all the brutes.”

  114. 114.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 9:51 am

    @MattF:

    Does she honestly think she’ll get a different reception than she did last time?

  115. 115.

    MomSense

    November 16, 2015 at 9:52 am

    @Peale:

    They’ve forgotten that after Reagan talking tough and acting strong and leadery, he also cut and ran from Beirut after the bombing there.

  116. 116.

    rikyrah

    November 16, 2015 at 9:52 am

    GOP offers a lesson on how not to respond to terrorism
    11/16/15 08:00 AM
    By Steve Benen
    About 10 months ago, after terrorists attacked the Charlie Hebdo office in Paris, killing 11 people, congressional Republicans quickly began looking for ways to blame American leadership for the violence. It was reflexive; it was immediate; and it was ugly. The GOP reactions were practically a case study in how U.S. officials shouldn’t respond to an attack.

    Friday night’s terrorism in Paris was, by every metric, deadlier and more devastating, offering Americans an opportunity to speak with one voice while extending support to the nation’s oldest ally.

    It was an opportunity many leading Republicans chose not to take. The New York Times reported over the weekend:
    Visions of two Americas emerged from the 2016 presidential field on Saturday, at the Democratic debate and at Republican campaign events, as the candidates sought to project leadership after the Paris attacks and maneuver for political advantage in a rare moment when national security held voters’ attention.

    A dark portrait of a vulnerable homeland – impotent against Islamic State militants, susceptible against undocumented refugees and isolated in a world of fraying alliances – came into sharp relief as several Republicans seized on the crisis to try to elevate terrorism into a defining issue in the 2016 election.
    It’s an odd strategic choice, given that the Republican field is dominated by candidates with no meaningful experience in or understanding of foreign affairs, and nearly all of whom continue to think the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq was a great idea.

    And yet, it was quite a weekend for GOP chest-thumping. Ted Cruz issued a statement suggesting U.S. military strikes against ISIS targets should be less concerned about “civilian casualties.” John McCain said the rise of ISIS, an outgrowth of the disastrous war McCain celebrated, should be blamed on President Obama’s foreign policy.

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/gop-offers-lesson-how-not-respond-terrorism

  117. 117.

    MattF

    November 16, 2015 at 9:53 am

    @debbie: Does an ursine predator defecate in an arboreal area?

  118. 118.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 9:53 am

    @MattF: The Ann Coulter solution ‘kill them all and let Allah sort it out’ :-)

  119. 119.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 9:55 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Oh, I was pretty sensible in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. I remember reading all this “Obviously, this means war” stuff and thinking, “what? We don’t even know who to be at war with.”

    It took weeks for my guard to go down. A delayed response to prolonged cultural battering.

    My heart aches for all the people who were killed in Paris but the tricolor-icon, “I stand with France” stuff worries me, because it sounds like in the immediate aftermath, France is not learning from US mistakes in this area and well-meaning people are all set to enable that. To some extent, it’s politically and emotionally impossible for them to learn.

    And then US pundits are all saying this suddenly-upside-down crap about how France is mas macho than America because their bombing is less rational, or something. The reaction to the Democrats’ statements at the debate really depresses me: Clinton and Sanders both had to swerve really hawkish, but the mass-media reaction is that their statements were wimpy and out of touch, because Hillary said she wanted to get data and analyze what the hell was going on before declaring total war and sending in troops. Oh, no, wouldn’t want to do that.

    I guess the question for the US is just whether Americans lose interest in this kind of table-pounding after a couple of weeks, since it didn’t happen here. The Boston Marathon bombing did happen here and it only put us back into 9/11 mode for a short time, but the actual death toll was relatively low compared to the maimings.

  120. 120.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 9:58 am

    @D58826

    (which helps to explain Putin’s choice of targets)

    As does keeping access to the Mediterranean at Latakia under state control, as well as the supply lines from the harbor there to Damascus. Not to mention the keeping of anti-government factions well clear of the long established Russian military base on the Mediterranean in Syria.

  121. 121.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 9:59 am

    @rikyrah: I wonder how many people in Rand’s audience are current heroin addicts. More than zero, I’ll bet.

  122. 122.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 10:04 am

    @NotMax: yep. its complicated!!!!!!!!!!!!. But over on the daily beast a writer for the Federalist (Benjamin Domenech) is complaining that the democrats won’t use the term ‘radical Islam’ as if repeating that term over and over accomplishes anything.

  123. 123.

    Amir Khalid

    November 16, 2015 at 10:05 am

    Interesting, this. TPM has profiled a national-security adviser of Dr Ben’s, a retired two-star general, who could be the source of the candidate’s claim that China is fighting in Syria.

  124. 124.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 10:05 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I can only speak for myself, but adding the tricolor to my FB photo has zero to do with geopolitics, and screw all these people who are bitching about it.

    One of my nephew’s friends went on a tirade Saturday night, unfriending any of his friends (and there were many) who had added it and calling them all kinds of names. The only thing they should care about, he ranted, was racism.

    I don’t know why people think anyone should have more than one issue. I was expressing sympathy. Apparently that’s un-American now.

  125. 125.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    November 16, 2015 at 10:06 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: Let’s see if link posting will work for me.

    NSFW, oh lordie NSFW.

  126. 126.

    debbie

    November 16, 2015 at 10:07 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    Congratulations if you were able to read that article all the way through. You’re stronger than I.

    Meanwhile, Glenn Beck’s fuming over SNL’s treatment of Ben Carson on their show. They were making fun of his claims of adolescent violence. This shameful treatment can only be because Carson’s a Christian.

  127. 127.

    Unsympathetic

    November 16, 2015 at 10:11 am

    Calling ISIS [daesh, IL, on Tuesdays call them IS] “muslim extremists” is too broad of a brush.

    The correct term would be “Islamic cult” – because that’s exactly how much support and relevance they have to anything mainstream.

    Does Christianity have a violent past? Yes. Is David Koresh representative of all Christians? Not even close.

    Painting this as a culture war… fits the narrative of those who benefit from a war.

  128. 128.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 10:13 am

    @Amir Khalid: A quote from the linked article

    the retired general told businesspeople looking to score government contracts at a conference in Iraq that he “was one of the primary planners of the invasion,” according to a 2004 report in The Nation.

    . Now that is what I call a real bragging point; but I think I would rather take the advice of the captain of the Titanic on avoiding icebergs.

  129. 129.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    November 16, 2015 at 10:15 am

    @Thursday: Operating system and browser? Because I’m not seeing it on W8.1 and Firefox. Haven’t tried Android; I try hard to not read and especially never comment from mobile.

  130. 130.

    NotMax

    November 16, 2015 at 10:16 am

    @D58826

    No doubt Domenech can find time to fit the talismanic phrasing in between his plagiarizing of others’ prose.

  131. 131.

    MattF

    November 16, 2015 at 10:17 am

    @D58826: But, OTOH, if anyone ever asks what a ‘shibboleth’ is, we’ve got a perfect example.

  132. 132.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 10:18 am

    Obama is speaking on ISIL on TV

  133. 133.

    the Conster

    November 16, 2015 at 10:22 am

    I’m sure this Atlantic article “What ISIS Really Wants” has been posted here in BJ several times already, but just in case I’m posting it again. It’s a must read, and explains how they’re playing the west through all of these knee-jerk right wing idiots who are as predictable as a sun rise.

  134. 134.

    Iowa Old Lady

    November 16, 2015 at 10:24 am

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: NSFW indeed, but true!

  135. 135.

    OzarkHillbilly

    November 16, 2015 at 10:33 am

    @Matt McIrvin: After 9/11 and the drum beat of war was everywhere and everyone knew we were going after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, I was the only one I know who was loudly and adamantly against the invasion, for one reason and one reason only: I knew we would not finish what we were about to start. Because we never do.

    I recommend reading “The Price of Civilization” over at Stonekettle Station. As he says, we are real good at winning wars (or battles anyway), lousy at managing what comes after. Good perspective.

  136. 136.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 10:34 am

    Listening to the press conferance. The reporters keep asking the same question just using different words. No Drama Obama keeps explaining that this isn’t easy to fix, there is no quick solution and there will be no charge up San Juan hill moment in this effort. Even if we can kill every last member of ISIL, unless we can neutralize the underlying philosophy there will be another group to take the place of ISIL. Obama keeps laying out the multi-phase process that the US is trying to implement and that it will take time. And then the next reporter asks why haven’t we waved a magic wand and destroyed ISIL.

    The man does have patients. By this time I think I would have thrown a shoe at some of the press.

  137. 137.

    Amir Khalid

    November 16, 2015 at 10:36 am

    Obama just mentioned the “President of Malaysia”. Tsk, tsk. The only thing he’s said that I disagree with.

  138. 138.

    Amir Khalid

    November 16, 2015 at 10:40 am

    Obama’s chewing out Jeb for suggesting America accept Christian refugees first from Syria.

  139. 139.

    Hill Dweller

    November 16, 2015 at 10:41 am

    PBO just hammered Jeb and Rubio over the refugee issue, without actually using their names.

  140. 140.

    ThresherK

    November 16, 2015 at 10:45 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: “There’s a time to think, and a time to act.

    Well, this is no time to think!”

    (Source unknown. Let’s just say The Simpsons.)

    @debbie: Glenn Beck can just (as always) cram it. Several years ago SNL got into a shaky pattern of depicting NY then-Gov David Patterson, who is legally blind, in a very unfunny manner. There wasn’t a meta-twist, or a Mr. Magoo setup. It was just awful, cringe-y stuff that didn’t even approach cringe comedy.

    I’m not gonna bother looking up what Beck thought of that.

  141. 141.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 10:45 am

    Funny that he had some kind words about W though and W’s response to anti-Islam rhetoric.

  142. 142.

    ThresherK

    November 16, 2015 at 10:50 am

    I am looking forward to The Daily Show in about a week. That’s my guess as to when they’ll make a supercut of all the usual suspects (primarily on the right, and the Beltway Inbreds) who now care about Paris but a dozen years ago introduced us to the little shitfit of nomenclature known as Freedom Fries.

  143. 143.

    Chris

    November 16, 2015 at 10:58 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    we are real good at winning wars (or battles anyway), lousy at managing what comes after.

    It’s always a mistake to reason by analogy and assume that what worked in one context will work in another, but… I always find myself wishing policymakers would take a look not only at WW2 but the aftermath of WW2 and all the work that was put into rebuilding and reshaping the societies we occupied into something that could pass for a long-term solution in order to ensure we didn’t just have to come by and do the same thing all over again later. I’m not saying the same thing would necessarily have worked in Afghanistan or Iraq or would work in Syria now… but I can’t imagine it even being tried.

    Of course, our ideas on the role of government being what they are now as opposed to in the 1940s, I kind of shudder to think what that “how do we Marshall Plan the future of Syria” debate would look like today. I can’t imagine a “how do we reshape these societies” debate that doesn’t involve a ton of our politicians clamoring for subsidizing Christian missionarism or at the very least aggressively anti-Islamic ideological campaigns (I could imagine it in the early 2000s, but not today). More than that, I certainly can’t imagine a “how do we rebuild these societies” debate that doesn’t ultimately end with us giving a license to the private sector to gorge itself on government contracts and the occupied country’s resources and population with minimum oversight, all under the mantra that wealth trickling down will save the country (which we basically already saw in Iraq).

  144. 144.

    Joel

    November 16, 2015 at 11:07 am

    @2liberal: Fuck yeah!

  145. 145.

    D58826

    November 16, 2015 at 11:13 am

    Oh god – Andrea Mitchelll – we don’t know what we don’t know. We don’t know if ISIL has anti-aircraft guns so we need a no fly zone. Bright idea give ISIL targets to use those anti-aircraft guns on. Why is Obama so ‘defensive’ just because he doesn’t have all the answers to every question. Why isn’t the US able read the minds of all the evil people in the world. According to Mitchell the policy of training local forces in Iraq and Syria has been a failure so we have to try something else. Which is what? Why will American soldiers solve the problem? Sure the 101st might take back Mosul but unless we plan on having them stationed there forever, at some point the Iraqi’s must be able to defend it them selves. Why are ISIL fighters so much more willing to die for the caliphate than the Iraqi army is for the state of Iraq.

    According to Mitchell the state department has totally failed in the propaganda war with the terrorists. While it is probably true that ISIL have become masters of social media she oversimplifies the problem. It is easy for ISIL to play on the feelings of disenfranchisement that many young Muslims feel. It is easy to play on the emotions of people who are unemployed. Exactly what propaganda should the State Department use to convince the unemployed that this is the best or all possible worlds so just suck it up and live with it.

  146. 146.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 11:14 am

    @ThresherK: I just read a strange ranting review about how Trevor Noah has ruined and defanged The Daily Show.

    I don’t see it; I think he’s great! There’s actually a lot of continuity from where Jon Stewart was late in his run, and he’s certainly a lot better than the early Jon Stewart. Most of the writers are the same, after all.

  147. 147.

    catclub

    November 16, 2015 at 11:28 am

    @mclaren:

    The Soviet Union spent all of the 1980s attempting to pacify Afghanistan and succeeded only in killing a million or so Afghans while creating an incubator for Islamic radicalism.

    The Saudis helped in the incubator part! Also, as Pierce noted.

  148. 148.

    catclub

    November 16, 2015 at 11:33 am

    @the Conster: Was that the article that said that ISIS is heavily made up of Saddam Hussein’s security operatives and army officers? Or the one that ignored that fact?

  149. 149.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 16, 2015 at 11:35 am

    @debbie: Oh, I’m not going to shame people about it. People grieve in their own way, and paying more attention to people and places that are more culturally familiar is completely understandable even if it’s not fair in some abstract sense. It’s fine.

    It just makes me feel wary, given what all the flags and yellow ribbons after 9/11 led to, and what things piggybacked in on all that solidarity.

  150. 150.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    November 16, 2015 at 11:35 am

    @catclub: The Spiegel.de story is the one that says that Daesh is a creation of residual Baathists who are using a religious veneer.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  151. 151.

    Tyro

    November 16, 2015 at 11:52 am

    I used to read Rod Dreher because I thought that he was an interesting, intellectual person with deep spiritual beliefs who merely had a rather misguided conservative ideology.

    After reading more of him over the years, I’ve realized that he is an awful person. He’s friendly in person from all accounts, but he has a really mean, dark side.

  152. 152.

    Gretchen

    November 16, 2015 at 11:54 am

    At least this will change Dreher’s theme. He’s been on a multi-day hysterical rant about Social Justice Warriors and weak wimpy college students and polital correctness and freedom of speech about the Yale and Mizzou stories. He’s gotten every bit as worked up about it as he was about gay marriage, which is considerable and amazing. It’s almost as if suggesting to him that racism is still a thing is as disturbing as other people having unauthorized sex.
    This will push all his buttons, though, since his other theme is that Christianity is losing out and we’re all gonna die when we’re not all Christians any more.

  153. 153.

    catclub

    November 16, 2015 at 12:02 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Thanks!

  154. 154.

    Ruckus

    November 16, 2015 at 12:11 pm

    @Jack the Second:
    I don’t tell myself that bad things can’t happen to me, because they already have. Thing is this doesn’t make me special in any way. All the bad things that have happened to me and the one’s I expect to come because, they have also happened to literally. countless others. Earthquake, recession, incurable disease, homelessness, being shot at…… Most of us will suffer from countless things in life, many of us will have good days as well. All we can do is to try to minimize the bad and maximize the good. I posted on another thread about being 1/7 billionth of the worlds population and some stated that they were going to do everything to minimize the risks, but my point is that you can’t really do that for most of the things that in the end are the ones that cause you the most pain are the ones you can’t control. Religion was supposed to explain why people have things happen to them all the time, to give some rational to, well, life. Except of course that’s even been subverted to be it’s own thing we have to do, not any kind of actual, real explanation. Life is random, shit happens. There is only so much anyone can do. You can take umbrage at that or you can take solace in it. Humans have been looking for ways to stop the bad since we first stood upright and it hasn’t really changed much of anything. Look at history, most of the bad stuff is people trying to grab a piece of something to stop the bad stuff from happening to them. And it does anyway, if not in spite of this, directly because of it.

  155. 155.

    Ruckus

    November 16, 2015 at 12:23 pm

    @MattF:
    A friend posted a picture on FB over the weekend of just such an event. The caption was “Proof.”

  156. 156.

    Thursday

    November 16, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    Chrome on both Android and Windows 7.

  157. 157.

    Heliopause

    November 16, 2015 at 1:24 pm

    the wrong-headed responses it [terrorism] can inspire.

    Our leaders’ responses to terrorism are “wrong-headed” only in the sense that they are amoral. They are not at all “wrong-headed” in the sense that they are ill-considered or contrary to self-interest.

    You know how we always say, “we’re just doing what the terrorists want us to do”? We’re also doing what our leaders want us to do. We need to put to bed the notion that they are sheep being herded around by the Osama bin Ladens of the world. Most of them know exactly what they are doing when they react to terrorism with ever greater displays of violence and authoritarianism.

  158. 158.

    Bob

    November 16, 2015 at 3:37 pm

    I see that the general population here still are falling for the same okeydokes they were falling for a year ago when I was given the heave-ho off this site.

    ISIS is being paid for by the House of Saud, Qatar, the Kuwaiti royal family and a number of other Sunni Gulf states. Turkey has been allowing the flow of fighters into Iraq and Syria, along with weapons. We just sent another couple of shipments of advanced weapons to the Saudis so that they can kill more Houthis.

    This is a war for petroleum. The US uses these wars and revolutions for their continuing attempts to control the oil. It was back in 1980 when Brzezinski started sending SAM missiles to Osama and the Mujahadeen and you folks still don’t get it. When the US backed the fascist rebels in Chechnya. When the US overthrew the elected government in Ukraine to shut Russia’s natural gas off from Europe. When Obama and Hillary bombed the bejezus out of Libya.

    But no, you good liberals seem to have no idea how the earth is moving beneath your feet. The symbology of JFK’s murder in Dallas is missed by you.

    Aside to Amir Khalid: You happy with all the investigations into Malaysia Air’s crashed planes? Did you get all your answers yet? You know how US spy satellites spotted the explosion on the Russian plane in Egypt and could tell there wasn’t a missile? The US have lots of spy satellites that have been over Ukraine for a very long time. Three days after the shootdown of MH17 Kerry went on Meet The Press and announced that the US had proof of who shot that missile. Guess what? A year and a half later that information has never been released. And why should they? You don’t demand the information. You don’t even ask. All the things that were secret then, to include lots of Ukrainian information, still remain classified. Well, maybe in a couple of years.

  159. 159.

    les

    November 16, 2015 at 6:02 pm

    Late to the game, here, but:

    And the most important thing our societies can do in response is to refuse to give in to fear.

    That ship sailed 9/12, dude.

  160. 160.

    wetcasements

    November 16, 2015 at 10:25 pm

    Dreher is basically a hate-filled ball of contradictions. My favorite is where he goes off about how Christianity is dying in a country where 4/5 of people identify as pro-Jesus. He gets around this by saying, well, they aren’t real Christians like him who understand that it’s all about suffering and hating your gay neighbors. He really loves to talk about how Christianity is, for everybody but him, a “therapeutic” namby-pamby philosophy now, not Biblical hellfire and such.

    Next post, he flogs a book called “How Dante Can Save Your Life.”

    God, I love hate-reading him.

    Anyhow, Who Would Jesus Deport?

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