The idea of a Republican as President right now scares the hell out of me:
Earlier Monday, Obama had defended the U.S. strategy against the Islamic State, which has largely focused on airstrikes, amid calls for deploying a large number of ground troops in response to the Paris terrorist attacks. Obama said a ground invasion would be a “mistake” because it would require using U.S. troops to occupy Iraqi and Syrian cities indefinitely.
Obama also said he respected the debate over what to do against the Islamic State, but “if folks want to pop off and have opinions about what they think they would do, present a specific plan.”
“If they think somehow their advisers are better than the Chairman of my Joint Chiefs of Staff and the folks who are actually on the ground, I want to meet them,” Obama said. “And we can have that debate. But what I’m not interested in doing is posing or pursuing some notion of American leadership or America winning or whatever other slogans they come up with that has no relationship to what is actually going to work to protect the American people and to protect the people in the region who are getting killed and to protect our allies and people like France. I’m too busy for that.”
Z
I’m worried how HRC would respond, too.
Baud
You note that no one is talking about Republicans in Congress are too chickenshit to even vote on an AUMF for Syria.
I’m not in the least. YMMV.
Corner Stone
Obviously, she would unzip her pantsuit, reach in and whip out her jewel encrusted monster dildo, slap it hard on the dais and ask, “Any questions?”
schrodinger's cat
Its been more than two weeks but the blog is still borked and ugly.
p.a.
@Corner Stone: that reminds me of something I saw on the web. :-(
Patricia Kayden
Secretary Cinton’s response doesn’t worry me. She’s learned from her Iraq mistake and has said so over and over.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: A mental image I did not need.
Southern Beale
I always knew Republicans were horrible people but even I have been astonished at the depths of their depravity in the wake of the Paris attacks. It’s just a cesspool of hate and fear out there. It’s like they’re all racing to see who can be the meanest.
Botsplainer
I’m sick at heart – now the fundie Christards on my local feeds are teeing off on Catholic Charities, which has been doing a great job of settling, training and re educating refugees of all faiths locally for decades. Their charges have been productive, hardworking and enthusiastic members of the community, from the moment they arrive – they’ve felt a lot of goodwill here. this gave negative assholes the sort of impetus they need to be shitty to people.
Corner Stone
Ain’t nobody got time for that!
Patricia Kayden
@schrodinger’s cat: lol. Hasn’t grown on me as yet either. Hopefully someone is working on it.
Baud
@Patricia Kayden:
Me too. The drop off in traffic here is hurting my campaign.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: I thought we liked it when someone slapped their mighty penii on the dais?
Mike in NC
The far right in this country is about to unleash a tsunami of stupid about how [not] to combat terrorism, which the media stenographers will happily push.
Corner Stone
I hope JJ Watt eats Andy Dalton whole.
Patricia Kayden
@Southern Beale: And yet they haven’t suggested a sensible way to fight IS. They have nothing but baseless criticisms of President Obama and fear and they’re going to milk the Paris attacks dry.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: What do you mean we, paleface?
Kropadope
@Patricia Kayden:
So, she must have learned from her Iraq mistake after her tenure at the State Department.
hoodie
Fortunately, Obama gets to set the agenda on this now, and HRC would be best served by following his lead. She’ll get stuck with it anyway and her claim to fame is as SoS in the Obama admin, not the Clinton admin. She’s been pretty good about continuing the Obama legacy so far, but this could be the acid test. She’s capable of passing it, she just needs to channel the iron lady thing she did at the Benghazi hearing. If she loses heart here, she can forget winning in ’16.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Myself and the other 221 members of my Enemas, Bronies and Dildos But Nothing Weird affiliate online club.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: How nice for you to have found a supportive community.
Corner Stone
@hoodie:
She’s already said she will not be any more aggressive than President Obama. What more could you possibly ask for?
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: I would invite you to join but there’s that whole “Nothing Weird” part. Sorry.
lamh36
Anti-Defamation League blasts governors shunning refugees
Baud
Is the “Z” at the end of Cole’s post some new slang for something?
schrodinger's cat
@Patricia Kayden: Its still on last morning’s post on my phone.
Who is Don Tate ? Is he the naturally gregariously alpha, or is he John’s new cat?
polyorchnid octopunch
@Southern Beale: You know, I’ve got a name for the people that are being appealed to by these cries for repression. I call them the cruelty constituency.
Whatever else is being said about Canada in the wake of Trudeau’s election (it’s like the folks at buzzfeed are having a collective orgasm or something), we have those folks up here, and lots of ’em.
Someone firebombed a mosque in the city of Peterborough, Ontario this weekend. It’s disgraceful.
Sic transit gloria Harper, but he didn’t run the joint for a decade without there being anyone up here that just loved that shit and supported him for it.
I’m so So SO glad we had our election before this went down.
And yeah, the Cons up here are totally going to town on what happened in Paris. The tone is almost comical, it’s like “see! Trudeau’s in charge and something bad happened! Now you’re in for it!”
So yeah… the cruelty constituency. I think it’s a good name for that sort of politics. They’re appealing to the cruelty constituency
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: It’s all good. There are Packer fan groups all over.
Baud
@Corner Stone:
That’s too bad. I thought you were serious about the dildo thing. I was looking forward to it.
Corner Stone
Holy Shit! A Texans TE who can actually hold on to the ball!
catclub
@Baud: Maybe new John Cole +0 signature?
quaker in a basement
Unsurprisingly, conservatives heard, “Blah. blah. blah, blah, I’m not interested in America winning, blah, blah blah.”
Mike J
Fuck NBC up the ass with a rusty chainsaw. On their nightly “news”, the chyron for the story about Republican pants wetters turning away refugees was “taking a stand”.
That’s our liberal media?
RaflW
The same ugly impulse that led us to create internment camps 73 years ago is still with us. I am shocked at the debased nastiness, and I have thought of myself as jaded, cynical and world weary for years.
This level of anti-anyone-not-white bile is unconscionable.
But beyond that, why aren’t liberals attacking the throng of GOP pants-wetters for what they are? They are terrified. These so called tough guys woulda been bawling puddles if they’d been on the same continent as Paris over the weekend. No amount of Depends could have absorbed their self-shitting had they been within 100 kilometers of Paris.
They should be publicly shamed for their depraved xenophobia, and mercilessly mocked for their abject cowardice.
Mike J
@Baud:
-30-
Baud
@RaflW:
Agree 100%
@Mike J:
?
Elizabelle
It’s November 2015. Thank goodness this isn’t going on in late October 2016. (Although, stay tuned.)
I think there’s time for opinion to turn against the hysterical Republicans.
Unless you’re a rightwinger or plutocrat (actual or aspiring), you probably don’t want them back in power. People have not forgotten W, and the candidates are outdoing themselves to make him look more thoughtful than they are.
cokane
@Corner Stone: bruh, ur team is garbage. watt is overrated
raven
Richard Engle is on with Rachel for a long interview. Dude knows his shit.
Mike J
@Baud: EOF for journos.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, at least potentially good news for you then. What kind of kinky shit is going to go down when they reach the 6 – 9 mark this season? Masked balls?
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
Well, that’s nice and all, but I have never really forgiven the ADL for their horrible pushback a few years ago against the “Ground Zero Mosque” (which was, of course, neither). Foxman and Friends earned an indelible black mark in my book.
Baud
@Mike J:
Interesting.
Corner Stone
@cokane: Watt over rated? Totes hilar, my good crank.
Kropadope
@Corner Stone:
She’s gotten way better at telling potential primary voters what they want to hear. Truthfulness? Not so much.
Elizabelle
@RaflW: I agree. Shame the Republicans for being pants-wetters. Courage, and patience for the long game.
Anyone can throw a match into a pool of gasoline. Don’t reward them for trying.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Just off hand, is there anything she could say or do that you would would believe was sincere? My guess is withdrawing from the race would be the only thing.
Corner Stone
Surprised the refs didn’t throw another PI flag there.
jl
I can worry about what HRC would do later, if she gets elected president. I worry more about what any of the GOP bozos would do.
What people like HRC, Sanders and Biden can do now is aggressively counter the real (or cynically pretended) shameful bedwetting and demagoguery. And what is an outright smear campaign against Obama and the Democrats. I’ve seen this over and over again, and I am sick of it.
Times like these remind me why I can never ever vote GOP ever again. It has really become a cesspit of the unscrupulous and the incompetent.
some guy
Abe Foxman is a racist piece of shit and why anyone would or should care one iota about anything that Abe Foxman utters is beyond me.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Actions speak louder than words. Her actions have been consistently on the side of more violence and engagement in place where we don’t belong.
cokane
@Corner Stone: he was great bro, but his peak is over. time to accept reality
Corner Stone
Ok, so three defenders for one tackle then? Thanks.
Corner Stone
@cokane: BQ.
Villago Delenda Est
This may be the most perfect case of a pot calling a kettle black I’ve ever seen. Remember, his worthless deserting coward of a brother “kept us safe”.
Elizabelle
Here’s C-Span link to Obama presser today. Haven’t watched it yet, but sounds good.
sparrow
@Kropadope: I also agree that what Clinton will be like as a president is anyone’s guess. She’s saying exactly what she thinks she needs to right now to get elected, and that’s obvious. I don’t especially blame her, as that’s what 99% of politicians do, including Obama.
cokane
@Villago Delenda Est: think about it positively, this is now seen as a bad thing, even by Republicans
amk
LOLGOP @LOLGOP
The real danger of letting refugees in is their kids may grow up to be Republican Senators.
4:11 AM – 17 Nov 2015
Mike J
OT:
So if your dad’s idea of a celebratory diner is a steak and baked potato, and you know he had that yesterday (trad sunday night dinner for him), and you need a celebratory menu for him tomorrow, what would you whip up?
Baud
@cokane:
I disagree. The only bad thing they see is that Obama is in charge.
Corner Stone
Ok, keep the silk in your pockets on that one, then. Bullshit.
Corner Stone
@Mike J: Steak and a baked potato.
Baud
@Mike J:
Indian.
Keith G
@Kropadope:
WTF?
The sad fact is…Americans do not elect truth-tellers. They elect used car salespersons who can deliver a satisfying mixture of warm and fuzzy laced with an adequate amount of dead eyed testosterone and an accompanying whiff of competence.
SiubhanDuinne
@some guy:
Quit agreeing with me, mmkay? I have a decent reputation around here and I don’t want it tarnished.
Kropadope
@sparrow: If I wanted someone who played to false conventional wisdom narratives and who never saw a middle-eastern country they didn’t want to blow up, I would vote for a real Republican.
lamh36
It’s both sad and ridiculous withe Cruz and Rubio…both children of refugees…right.
But the again, as I said in a previous thread, Bobby Jindal is the child of immigrants and want’s the Mexicans out ASAP….
Kropadope
@Keith G:
Ahh, competence, the trump card in the pro-Hilary narrative. Not much evidence for this, though.
Mike J
@Baud: That would be great for me, but Corner Stone is probably closer to the right answer.
Also out: Thai, Nepalese, anything drizzled with elderflower.
Baud
@Mike J:
Enjoy whatever you decide on.
lamh36
still haven’t heard how Cons would distinguish Muslims from Christians…I suspect we all know what criteria, they would use, but of course they won’t fess up to that.
Corner Stone
@Kropadope:
Do you even vaguely wonder what reality you seem to be in?
MazeDancer
@RaflW:
Had the exact same thought today that oh, so this is how rounding up Americans of Japanese ancestry happened.
Like many of us, have often thought that RWNJ’s are from some other country, not America. They hate Democracy, try to suppress voting, don’t believe in freedom for others, many want a theocracy. Today, really drove home how wingnuts do not live in my country. (And how I wish they physically lived elsewhere)
President Obama said something similar, today, when he chastised those who are want a religious test for refugees. That’s not who we are.” And that such behavior was “shameful”.
Un- American. And shameful. That’s the GOP.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mike J: Go out for fajitas and margaritas.
RaflW
@Mike J: Steak and cheesy potato casserole.
Maybe a ribeye if you know he had a NY strip. Or vise versa. Really go wild.
Svensker
@Mike J:
Prime rib and mashed?
Kropadope
@Corner Stone: Hey, when Hillary has us waist-deep in Syria or some other God-forsaken hellhole a year into her presidency, are you gonna pay for these wars out of your own pocket?
Corner Stone
@Kropadope: So the answer is no, you never wonder what alt-reality you are in.
Kay
The Party of religious liberty
NotMax
@Mike J
Ribs with either fries or potato salad.
cokane
@Kropadope: we’re already kind of involved in Syria? Can you be more specific about what you’re predicting? An invasion with ground troops? No, that’s very very unlikely.
jl
Cenk Uygur reports that one of the suspects of the Paris bombing appeared in a ISIS magazine article, under his own name, in which article he said he was buying arms in Europe for a terrorist attack there.
I’d like more details on that.
So, I’m not overly relying on Uygur’s report since he gives no source in his report. but something to watch for as the investigation continues into the Paris attacks.
Trump: We Should Strongly Consider Closing Mosques
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppGIOCeuwFU
Baud
@Kay:
Whenever a Republican says something should he studied or considered, it’s actually a freeble dodge. It riles up liberals which plays with the GOP base, without committing to anything.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay: Islam is not a “real” religion, you know. Only Christianity is, and some of its various branches are suspect.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kropadope: Assumes facts that haven’t happened yet, and frankly seem unlikely to happen, as Hillary seems to have learned some shit over the past 15 years.
Ella in Mew Mexico
The idea of Obama NOT being President scares the SHIT out of me
JPL
Rand Paul is mentioning that French citizens need further scrutiny before traveling here. Obviously, I don’t agree with that, but he appears to understand where the terrorists were from. I don’t know if he mentioned Belgium or the UK.
benw
Not letting the refugees in is a huge mistake.
We need at least another 100,000 human laborers to rebuild America’s crumbling grain-storage pyramids.
JPL
@benw: Silly Ben, we don’t have pyramids so they’s have to build those first.
Applejinx
The thing that scares me about Hillary is not that she WANTS to be hawkish. I’m prepared to believe she’ll triangulate her way out of that one, and that she correctly sees most of us are done with various forms of bullshit and DEMANDING better behavior from our leaders.
No, the thing that worries me about Hillary is that if she decided the American people wanted warmongering hawkishness and another excellent adventure in enemybuilding, she would not be wrong in thinking that. Way, way too many of us are fucking idiots.
In Obama we’re used to a guy who will do some things right and some things annoyingly or distressingly, all because he figures he’s right and we’re wrong. The guy I want to be president, Bernie, voted not to close Guatanamo Bay because it was a trap: it was ‘move them to the States still with no rights and sweep it all under the rug, consecrating it as normal policy from now on’.
I don’t know what Hillary Clinton is supposed to do to convince me she’s not going to turn around and support the worst whims of ‘real America’. She’s damn smart, she sees the energy out there, waiting to be used. She could always tap into our most fucked-up tendencies for personal gain and power and glory. I guess I’d believe it if she went and straight-up alienated all those people and called them idiots (as Obama’s been politely doing, with many pained hesitations and pauses), as Bernie’s always happy to do.
Because the problem is, if she swung hawkish fuckwit, she would BE representing the American people in important ways. Just not good ways. It’s even possible that things will align to make the election be about appealing to all that, with the eager help of our MSM all the way, and those of us desperately trying to retain civilization will need all the help we can get.
I am VERY CAUTIOUS about assuming Hillary will be on our side there.
Baud
@JPL:
There is that one on Vegas.
Villago Delenda Est
@JPL: Rand Paul is an ass who, in any civilized society, would long ago have been consigned (along with his father) to pariah status.
Corner Stone
@benw:
Man are you whey behind the times. With our Just In Time delivery system we don’t need no steenkin’ Pyramid storage.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: So withdrawing would be it. Got it.
BobS
@Kropadope: What you’ll get is what you get whenever her and Obama’s responsibilities for the nightmares in Libya and Syria are mentioned — willful blindness.
Corner Stone
@Applejinx: May I offer you a case of Depends?
NotMax
@Mike J – @NotMax
Don’t know your cooking acumen, so a link to the bare basics of beef short ribs.
Twice cooked baked taters would also be good accompaniment.
jl
@Corner Stone: I thought we needed them to rebuild our Stonehenge levitation machines.
NotMax
Broken link above.
Fixed link
Corner Stone
That was cray cray.
Kropadope
@cokane: It took five years of haranguing from the perpetual war crowd, his SoS included, before Obama was willing to sign off on the fool idea of arming Syrian rebels. Do you think if we had armed the rebels five years earliers that it would have resulted in anything other than a better-armed ISIL?
Omnes Omnibus
@Applejinx:
Not the case. Presence on US soil triggers a number of rights. That’s why Gitmo was used by the Bushies. But really don’t let history or the law get in the way of your opinions.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: No, he had Steve type the post.
Cacti
Having the US armed forces act as a praetorian guard for some puppet regime in Iraq or Syria would be disaster for us, and alternatively a dream come true for ISIS.
They would always have a fresh supply of recruits as long as they could point that the goal of the west wasn’t freedom or peace, but subjugation of the region.
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
I knew they would be bad but I didn’t know how bad. They are running around in circles gibbering in fear. They need an intervention, a distraction, shut off the lights so everyone goes quiet, something.
Corner Stone
Finally. Finally Lechler does not over kick his coverage and keeps it where they have to call fair catch inside the 10.
cokane
@Kropadope: I think Obama is too hawkish. But I also accept that we’re not getting another Jimmy Carter… ur making some strawmen here, and evading my question. What exactly are you predicting on Hillary? Because Obama’s already somewhat involved in Syria…
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: The combination of RW politicians and the media orientation toward them and their narrative is toxic. I think most Americans would react decently if presented with a factual assessment of what is happening. I am calling Walker’s office first thing in the morning to say that he has no say in who comes to Wisconsin and that the fact hat he tried to do so is simply vile.
BobS
@Kropadope: American weapons were making their way to Syrian rebels/terrorists (via the Saudis) at least as early as 2011.
Thoughtful Today
!
Hillary’s militarism was on display when she suggested a ‘no-fly zone’ over Syria, which would have created a direct conflict with Russia (isil/isis does NOT have an air force).
That’s an escalation that neither Obama nor Sanders supported.
If Hillary weren’t concerned with her left flank, her inner-Neocon would be calling for boots on the ground in Syria and escalating many of the conflicts that we’re in around the world.
Hillary’s long record of militancy is indisputable and for her fans to rewrite history is an insult.
Just Some Fuckhead
Jesus, how did the Balloon Juice layout get WHITER? I can’t stand to look at the page for more than a minute or two for fear of going blind. This is the second worst Balloon Juice instance ever. The worst was in ’98 when John got crazy with Frontpage and turned Balloon Juice into a blog / Team Fortress clan page with the hellfire background and sound recorder embeds featuring howls, shrieks and moans.
Just Some Fuckhead
Ah, sunglasses help.
John, you need to get an attorney and sue the fuck out of someone for this blog abortion.
Corner Stone
Another TE catch by the Texans? Shocking!
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
I had 9 women here tonight for a school thing and not one of them mentioned it at all, let alone closing the state borders.
They’re such incredibly bad “leaders” it’s shocking. I sort of got it with Bush because he had his stern resolve face on and his “team” was always striding around pretending they were competent, but this? I wouldn’t follow any of these people anywhere.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Cacti: Boom, headshot.
Cheryl Rofer
It just occurred to me that everyone in states with governors who are rejecting (the idea of) Syrian refugees needs to email or call their offices ASAP. Flood the lines. And letters to local papers are a good idea, too. Show them where public sentiment lies.
I tweeted out that idea, and Omnes Omnibus told me he planned to call Walker tomorrow morning first thing.
Gotta make a big noise on this.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: I’ve already said that that particular position was eliminated (Fuck you, Scott). I can call him and offer factual descriptions without concern about my career.
@Thoughtful Today: Can you actually define neocon? It doesn’t mean activist, interventionist foreign policy with which one disagrees.
Kropadope
@cokane: What strawmen? I pointed at her actual record. as an indication of how she’d handle the current situation; more bombs, more death, more derp, more money, now, now, now. Can you point to one situation where military force was being considered where she didn’t come down on the side of military action?
Frankensteinbeck
Her response, at the debate, right after the event and when she was under the most pressure to sound hawkish, was that beating ISIS was important, but the US wasn’t going to and couldn’t do it. The locals will have to.
Pretty much the same as Obama’s, and exactly what I was hoping to hear from her.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Omnes Omnibus: A neocon is a person who thinks you can fix any situation by killing the right people.
Corner Stone
TD…Texans?
benw
@JPL: Joke’s on you, my Jet Propulsion Laboratory friend! The aliens built them at Area 51, as part of Obama’s plan to steal our American grain. Now we need the refugees to fix them.
Cacti
Rancid war profiteer Dianne Feinstein is banging the drum for new money making opportunities for hubby’s hedge fund.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Obama has an administrative culture where his State Department offered hawkish alternatives. It is the way he has worked.
benw
@Just Some Fuckhead: that puts a whole new spin on “Jeb can fix it!”
Kropadope
@Frankensteinbeck:
What has her response been every time she ever held office and a similar question came up?
She brought saying what most Democratic primary voters want to hear to an art form. Am I supposed to be impressed. She has a long record in public life and her supporters are curiously eager to ignore every aspect of it, save for the assertion that she’s experienced.
cokane
@Kropadope: son, you still are failing to define what you meant when you said hillary would get us involved up to our waists in Syria.
We’re already bombing and sending arms. So what exactly did you mean? You need to define your bullshit. Stop evading.
BobS
@Thoughtful Today: Clinton could be more accurately described as a humanitarian interventionist, the other excuse Americans give for meddling violently in the affairs of other countries. Think of it as the Democratic counterpart to neo-conservatism.
@efgoldman: Says a Bruins fan who thought Neely’s career-ending injury was in 1979.
? Martin
Just a reminder – 43 people were killed by IS suicide bombings in Beirut. There were no flags at half staff, no moments of silence in Congress, no Lebanese flag colors adorning our monuments.
It’s not that the GOP is scared shitless and wanting to nuke Syria from orbit, it’s that across the board – including Democrats unfortunately, there are persistent double-standards for the value of caucasian vs non-caucasian lives, (presumably) Christian vs (presumably) non-Christian lives, and so on. Even going so far as to write legislation to excuse a white person leaving a pile of dead 6-year olds in a first-grade classroom.
Redshift
@Baud:
Chris Hayes had a Republican congressman on who blathered about how the administration was being insufficiently open with Congress about strategy. Chris asked him about Congress having punted on debating the use of force, and who did he blame for that. He said we “shouldn’t point fingers,” and then proceeded to claim it was all Obama’s fault. Yeah, they’d demanded Obama write the AUMF instead of doing their job, and yeah, Boehner didn’t even bring it up for debate, but Obama hasn’t presented them with a clear enough strategy, so obviously, Boehner had no choice.
It was appalling, but Chris didn’t let him off the hook.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t know. John Kerry, though still comparatively hawkish, has managed to propose solutions that don’t involve bombing, killing, or providing other with the wherewithal to do so.
benw
@Corner Stone:
And I thought they smelled bad on the OUTSIDE!
Nate Dawg
@Just Some Fuckhead: how many people were around before John stopped being a wingnut, and how many people fled the site altogether?
Kropadope
@cokane: I’m damn near certain she’ll be ready to put boots on the ground as soon as the media starts asking for it. She is, after all, a true tough leader, best defined as someone who readily yields to media’s pro-war pushes instantly and without question.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kropadope:
Uh… so far, she voted for Iraq, and that’s it. When asked once if she’d have done anything different from Obama, she said she’d have armed the Syrian rebels more, which led to an entire article speculating that any minute she would renounce Obama’s peacenik ways. Let’s see, she helped negotiate a peaceful settlement of the Iranian nuclear issue, and has bragged about that. I’m not seeing the hawkishness.
BobS
@Frankensteinbeck: “We came, we saw, he died”. Like I wrote @96 — willful blindness.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Nate Dawg: There were eight of us in the clan, nine if you count his mom who played a medic but spent most of the time healing the walls because she had a 2400 baud dialup connection.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Are you even paying attention to the news?*
*Noting for the record that I supported Kerry on his merits not as the best alternative. I also think he did a great job as SoS. I also thing he built on ground work that HRC laid. After the fuck-ups of the Bush admin, do you really think that people would just trust us because, fuck it. HRC was a big part of our ability to be trusted again by other countries. If you can’t see that you are wearing blinders.
Corner Stone
God, do not mention the Ghost of Matt Schaub. Please.
cokane
@Kropadope: ok that’s fair in that you are now making a specific prediction.
I don’t think it’s a realistic one though. Maybe I just think the zeitgeist is unlikely to go that way, I dunno.
I think your characterization of “the media” is off too. “Media” is a plural noun. More than that semantic point, they’re a broad, plural group of actors. They rarely do one thing. This kind of generalizing rhetoric reminds me of how people talked about “the jews” honestly.
Kropadope
@cokane:
A plural noun for a herd animal.
@Frankensteinbeck:
She helped wage economic warfare on Iran, punishing its people for the sins of its leadership. It helped bring them to the table for the deal, true, but hardly burnishes her peacemaker credentials.
Omnes Omnibus
Not criticizing because that might get me “god moded”. But the site does seem to stall. I am so sorry for mentioning a problem during which the site upgrade is achieving its inevitable wonderful resolution.
Corner Stone
@Kropadope: Are you really this stupid? Whose Iran policy do you think that is?
catclub
@Kropadope: There were only demonstrations in 2011
and the first signs of military actions in 2012. How do you get 5 years?
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s not unmentionable, at this point.
Corner Stone
JJ Swatt!
BobS
@catclub: Fighting started in 2011.
gwangung
That’s PRECISELY what a peacemaker does, using non martial methods.
You are not making a lot of sense here; you seem mostly irrational.
cokane
@Kropadope: herd animal… yeah the antisemitic comparison is apt.
Omnes Omnibus
@gwangung: Reply to whom?
Kropadope
@efgoldman: Next year I’m just going for the referenda. The rest of you can go ahead and vote to make the Democrats more closely resemble the klown kar, I guess.
@catclub:You’re right, Syria came later. When you’re constantly going on about arming one group or another, though, it’s kind of hard to keep it straight.
Thoughtful Today
!
Hillary’s disastrous vote for the Iraq War has been deleted by her fans.
‘It never happened, move along now.’
Play that ‘amnesia’ card with Republicans and it might fly, but it requires _short_term_amnesia_ as well as long_term_amnesia.
Those of us paying attention know Hillary’s very recent push for a no-fly zone in Syria would have been a dramatic escalation of that war and created a direct military conflict with Russia.
Corner Stone
It doesn’t matter. Incomplete by CIN or FUM by CIN.
This one is over with a TEXANS win.
Kropadope
@cokane: Where the fuck do you get anti-Semitic out of that?
@gwangung: Sanctions are acts of war. War is now peace, got it. Clearly my worries about the effects that Hillary could have on the Democratic party aren’t misplaced.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: You’re the cautious one tonight? She says, while being very grateful to The Other Chuck for MBBJ and EBBJ which make the site readable. And which can’t help with the other glitches, which shall be left unmentioned.
Corner Stone
Honk Honk! BARBARA! WE WON! TEXANS!!
Omnes Omnibus
@Thoughtful Today: You are trying to connect a decision from twelve or so years ago with today. If it rained last Tuesday, should you have carried an umbrella? since it isn’t last Tuesday, shouldn’t the decision be based on the facts?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
So, just to be clear, any action against another country other than a hearty handshake is an “act of war”?
Is there anything the US could do to express its disapproval for another country’s actions, or do we need to never say a harsh word since that would be an act of war?
Thoughtful Today
What’s particularly disturbing about Hillary Clinton’s militancy is that she speaks before knowing what she’s talking about.
Russia has long and deep relations with Syria, we don’t have to like it, but for Hillary to not know that and to say that Russia’s involvement in Syria was new was profoundly uninformed.
Republican-level uninformed. Clearly that resonates with some commenters.
rikyrah
I am very thankful that Barack Obama is President.
And, no, I don’t trust Hillary one bit when it comes to foreign policy.
Corner Stone
@Thoughtful Today: Shut the fuck up, jerk store.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): No, but hampering a country’s economy is an act of war, one that hurts the people way more than the elite. And I never said that we can never engage in warfare, just that engaging in warfare doesn’t score you points in the peace column, regardless of what happened after she left the State Department.
@Omnes Omnibus: So, we shouldn’t judge Hillary by her record, but by what she’s saying now? Got it.
Go team blue!!! Ra!!! Ra!!! Baaaaaa!!!!
Corner Stone
@rikyrah:
It’s really too bad you don’t have any faith in President Obama on this issue. But, I’m sure it’s all BQ Wevs now for you.
Corner Stone
@Kropadope:
This is the most ridic shit ever posted here. Is there a bucket somewhere that people are diving for apples that we could possibly hold your stupid fucking head under water.
BobS
@cokane: In your rush to use the anti-Semitic slur I believe you’ve confused “herd animal” with vermin.
@Kropadope: Sanctions are not necessarily acts of war, although they have preceeded warfare in some instances. On the other hand, the Stuxnet attack on Iran in 2009 and 2010 is widely considered to be an act of war.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
Well, if that’s the case, then we should just bomb other countries right away rather than dicking around with sanctions and other nonviolent actions since it’s all morally the same. Right?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Could you use a little more straw?
Thoughtful Today
…
Clinton supporter: “Is there a bucket somewhere that people are diving for apples that we could possibly hold your stupid fucking head under water.”
…
Kropadope
It’s amazing how quickly Clinton supporters turn to insults, threats, and false argumentation. Almost Republican in a way.
BobS
@Kropadope: Don’t forget the amnestic disorder that they (as well as Obama defenders) frequently exhibit.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Certainly not. It doesn’t matter how much Hillary says she regrets that vote, and it was, in retrospect, a mistake. No, we’re going to never give her the slightest credit for changing her mind about that, no sirreebob.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
You’re the one saying that sanctions are an act of war, so the sanctions against Iran automatically mean that Hillary is a warmonger. I’m just taking your view to its logical conclusion — since sanctions are by definition an act of war, it would be more honest for us to cut to the chase and start dropping bombs instead of messing around with nonviolent actions.
And since you seem to think that Hillary’s support for sanctions mean that she’ll be more likely to drop bombs, I’m not sure I’m exaggerating your view by that much.
Corner Stone
@Kropadope: Synchronicity!
Villago Delenda Est
@Kropadope: You’re projecting. Like the multiplex down at the mall.
Kropadope
@Villago Delenda Est: She can say she changed her mind all she wants. She had an opportunity as SoS to prove she changed her mind by changing her habits, she didn’t.
Corner Stone
@BobS: #EARNTHISDAMNVOTEORLOSE
Thoughtful Today
…
Expecting amnesia for Hillary’s disastrous Iraq War vote is like claiming ‘Bush kept us safe’.
Those amnesiacs should look up the respective death tolls.
Judgement matters.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
No, you’re making a leap that makes absolutely no sense while simultaneously completely ignoring the context in which I made the point we’re discussing. Frankensteinbeck claims that she was largely responsible for the Iran deal, a deal that was negotiated after she left the administration, and that this is a good example of her peacemaking credentials. I pointed out that the policy she carried out against Iran were sanctions and are not a good example of her promoting peace, if such an example even exists.
This does not mean, as you claimed, that I think war is never appropriate. It also doesn’t mean that I think sanctions are morally equivalent to dropping bombs.
Why don’t you guys figure out an affirmative case for your candidate of choice instead of bullying and libeling people who don’t support her?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
She did both sanctions and diplomacy — the multilateral talks with Iran that eventually bore fruit started under Clinton, not Kerry. But you seem to ignore the fact that Clinton started the talks and continued them until she handed them off to Kerry to complete while obsessively focusing on sanctions as an “act of war.”
And since there’s very clearly no affirmative case that any of us can make for Hillary that would be persuasive to you since you ignore the multilateral talks and focus like a laser on the sanctions to prove your preconceptions to yourself, I’m not sure why you think we should keep beating our heads against a brick wall.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I tried to find examples of Hillary’s peaceful diplomatic engagement with Iran and came up lacking. At the end of her tenure, she was still pushing for Iran to stop all uranium enrichment, an obvious non-starter and precisely what opponents of the Iran deal are pushing now.
These supposed affirmative cases don’t count if they don’t stand up to a minimum of scrutiny, which they never do when attempted.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
Yes, and the 2013 agreement magically appeared out of thin air with no previous effort by the State Department under Hillary, because John Kerry is just that awesome at diplomacy.
Something happened in Iran between the time that Hillary left and Kerry came in. Any idea what it was and how it may have abruptly changed our success in negotiations with Iran?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Could it be the fact that the Iranian people expressed clear dissatisfaction with its leadership and how isolated their country is? How about a SoS not pushing unrealistic demands?
ETA: How about actually putting forward some evidence to support your claims instead of making assertions and providing no additional information?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
If by “expressed their clear dissatifaction” you mean “the Iranian people elected a president who was willing to enter into direct negotiations with the US,” then sure. I’m pretty sure that the Iranian voters’ opinion of Hillary Clinton had approximately zero to do with that election, but since she’s your boogeyman, I guess I can see why you would interpret it that way.
The pre-2013 strategy by Obama and Clinton’s State Dept was to appeal directly to the supreme religious leader and bypass the Iranian president because previous diplomatic overtures that started with their president had failed. But, again, I’m sure John Kerry gets retroactive credit for that decision and those ongoing communications that happened before he was SoS, yes? And I’m sure those ongoing communications had absolutely nothing to do with the Supreme Leader coming out in full support of the agreement.
Short version: the agreement with Iran was a multi-year, multiple term effort that both Clinton and Kerry contributed to. It didn’t magically spring into existence as soon as Kerry took over.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
Okay, these dropped network connections mean I’m probably going to have to quit for the night, but here’s an article about Clinton’s policy shift opening the door for the Iran deal.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Hey, that’s the same article I read prior to posting about her failure of diplomacy with Iran. So, she tries to push a policy of Iran not being allowed to enrich any uranium whatsoever; and because they decided while she was on her way out the door that this policy was unproductive, that means she should get credit for the policy shift? That’s like giving her credit for ending the Iraq War because she voted to start it (it couldn’t have ended otherwise!!!) or giving her credit for Dodd-Frank because she supported deregulation in the 90s.
So, the Wall Street Journal is giving her undue credit for something. I wonder if they might have some sort of agenda that would be better served if Hillary Clinton becomes president.
AxelFoley
@BobS:
And here you go again with this bullshit. Expound, muthafucka, or shut the fuck up.
AxelFoley
@cokane:
FOH
Kropadope
@AxelFoley: Obama is too hawkish. Still he doesn’t come down on the hawk side every time without question.
mclaren
@Patricia Kayden:
Let’s hope so.
Unlike the Repubs, Democrats are evidence-driven and can learn from their mistakes.
mclaren
@Just Some Fuckhead:
That’s what I suggested last week. Cole needs to fire the clowns who did this blog “upgrade” and sue for all the money spent, plus damages.
Betty Cracker
@AxelFoley: Obama himself admits that it was a mistake for the international coalition that brought down Gaddafi — which included the US — to not be more proactive about filling the subsequent leadership vacuum. Libya is a nightmarish clusterfuck now because the worst elements filled that vacuum. In Syria, the insistence on getting rid of Assad has arguably made it more difficult to address the even more urgent problem of ISIS.
trnc
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/15/paris-attacks-republican-response-isis-military-intervention
When republican candidates for president convince their supporters (the “good guys with guns” who are self described militia) to join the military or head over to Syria and Iraq to fight, I’ll start taking them seriously.
BobS
@AxelFoley:This one time you’re right. It’s not always willful blindness — sometimes it’s just a two-digit IQ that prevents lowbrows like you from understanding. And I continue to be impressed by your ability to navigate a browser, so there’s also that.
Paul in KY
@lamh36: They would like to do what was done back in the Middle Ages by some pope: ‘Kill them all, God will know His own’.
The Other Chuck
Good start, but Obama or one of his surrogates really needs to start calling the Republican demagogues what they are: cowards. Pants-pissing, trembling cowards.