Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

This blog will pay for itself.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.

“Just close your eyes and kiss the girl and go where the tilt-a-whirl takes you.” ~OzarkHillbilly

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

When you’re a Republican, they let you do it.

Consistently wrong since 2002

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Let there be snark.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

75% of people clapping liked the show!

My right to basic bodily autonomy is not on the table. that’s the new deal.

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

One way or another, he’s a liar.

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Comments from Presidents Obama and Hollande

Reader Interactions

178Comments

  1. 1.

    gene108

    global climate conference

    Bill Clinton and his Administration were pushing for the U.S. to get on board with the Kyoto Protocols.

    Then GWB and his fossil fuel industry buddies were in charge and I think Bush, Jr. set back the cause of addressing global climate change by at least a decade.

    Just one more thing, in which Bush & Co helped to screw up the world just a little bit more than it would’ve been, if they were not in charge.

  5. 5.

    JGabriel

    @Mike J:

    What is Obama doing to address the site redesign?

    Slapping us in the back and stabbing us on the face! Or versa vice or something like that.

  6. 6.

    jl

    Heard news update on mess in Turkey. Apparently Turkey shot down Russian plan in a dogfight (WTF?), and rebel force on the ground shot and killed one of the pilots after he ejected. Other pilot missing. What a mess.

    Glad someone like Obama is in charge now. I hope reality check of how bad these things can get makes an impression on voters in general election. Will be ‘interesting’ to see what happens in the GOP primary madhouse (using that term for both the GOP presidential contestants and the primary voting base).

  7. 7.

    jl

    @JGabriel: Thanks, I was wondering how Obama failed us over last couple of weeks.

    Heard news report that Turkey downed Russian fighter in a dogfight (WTF were they thinking?) and rebels on the ground shot and killed Russian pilot after he ejected, and other pilot missing. What a mess.

    Edit: thing is why trust Erdogan to play straighter than Putin. Erdogan is just as much an authoritarian asshole as Putin, he just faces more effective democratic restraints in Turkey (so far…)

  8. 8.

    Elizabelle

    How did Obama fail us in his comments? I tuned in pretty late.

    Quite sure after today’s shitshow, Morning Joe will find Obama remiss at … whatever. I won’t tune in. Today was enough of a reminder to stay away.

  13. 13.

    The Pale Scot

    Why did I get an itchy feeling between my shoulder blades when Obama was saying how successful the DHS has been?

    “Olof Björnsson hasn’t missed a field goal in 18 games, this next one will be a chip shot to ice the game”

  14. 14.

    benw

    @maya:

    He’s going to throw Hollande sauce all over it, obviously.

    LOL. And on Thanksgiving, too, instead of good ol’ American gravy! Why does Obama hate America?

  18. 18.

    sharl

    @jl: Yep, it is one hell of a mess.

    From a Turkish-born and raised American academic:

    Zeynep Tufekci ‏@zeynep 39 minutes ago

    Plot thickens. Turkish media reporting: pilots alive, held by Syrian opposition, Turkey looking to get them. {Turkish-language Hurriet link}

    Already rumor that Russian pilots were alive. That the heavily-controlled Turkish press now says so “based on PM sources” strong indication.

    I can’t judge veracity of those videos floating around. I “specialize” in videos of drowning refugees. Know most. :-( #aargh

    I am not (cannot) vouch for anything. I do understand the Turkish media sphere. Someone from PM office said this to TR media.

    A more cynically derived possibility: Turkish government is feeding such statements to their pals in local media to try to keep Russians/Putin settled down. If one or both pilots end up being dead, Turks can say ‘sorry…we tried to save them.’

  19. 19.

    Punchy

    That Hollande guy really speaks his mind. Indeed, he’s….saucy. One day he’ll end up with egg on his face, but at least he’s a loyal Frenchman. He’s no Benedict…Arnold.

  20. 20.

    bystander

    All morning long, every talking head was blabbing about how Hollande was going to tell our Kenyan Usurper he needs to step up and start doing something about ISIS. Of course, Hollande, like most French, admires and respects Obama, and he has made it abundantly clear.

    I hate the media more than ever.

  21. 21.

    jl

    @sharl: Turkey may be playing the same game in Syria as Russians, in a way. May have been using pretext of strikes against Daesh to hit Kurds in Syria.

  22. 22.

    Dork

    @Punchy: Not so sure about the “loyal Frenchman” part…he’s often seen with those UK squishies. Ya know, those English muffins.

  23. 23.

    MomSense

    My kid is coming home today for Thanksgiving and the weekend before he leaves for Paris. Yes, I am nervous about it but my mom reminded me that I was in Paris the same year the Amex office and other places were bombed and that she had done a lot of pacing waiting for me to call from a pay phone.
    I also flew the same TWA route after one of their flights was hijacked. Some guy behind me in line for a different flight laughed and asked me if I packed for 40 days and nights.
    C’est la vie.

  24. 24.

    Jay C

    @sharl:

    And yet another report I just read said that one of the ejected [Russian] pilots had been rescued by helicopter, and that the other had been shot dead by some local “militiamen”.

    I’m afraid a coherent and cohesive account of this sorry incident is still a long way off (if ever).

    And yeah, if Obama had only shown some leadership, we wouldn;t have had near as many problems with the site redesign! Thanks, Barry….!

  25. 25.

    Mandalay

    BBC Radio 4 just interviewed a Syrian refugee in England at a shopping mall. She said it was beautiful, and it reminded her of the one she owned in Syria.

    Being poor isn’t a prerequisite for being a refugee.

  27. 27.

    Marnie

    @Elizabelle:

    Quite sure after today’s shitshow, Morning Joe will find Obama remiss at … whateve.

    Heh. I’m enjoying MJ’s frequent and nothing-but-unimaginative references to WaPo editorial’s use of “petulant.” Drinking game in the making, there. They really should whisper some new stuff into his earpeice every few weeks.

  29. 29.

    sharl

    @jl: Yes, the Kurds are always at the top of the List of Things to Worry About for the Turks, regardless of who is running the government. IIRC, the Turks increased their assaults against the Kurds almost before the ink had dried on the deal with the U.S. to allow our forces to use Turkish military bases (especially advantageous for our Air Force).

    There was also domestic Turkish politics. When legislative elections in June did not go well for the ruling AKP, new elections were scheduled. After severely clamping down on what was left of independent media, Bush Putin Trump Erdogan started screaming that there was a much heightened risk of terrorism from Saddam Chechens Syrian refugees Kurds. There was no independent media left to call BS on this.

    For the most part, it worked.

  30. 30.

    Betty Cracker

    @Elizabelle: I almost never watch Morning Joe but heard a few moments of it this morning while searching the couch cushions for the remote. It sounds like they’ve settled on Ted Cruz as the establishment savior who will knock Trump off the dumpster heap.

  31. 31.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Mandalay: When India was partitioned a lot of wealthy Hindu and Sikh farm owners lost everything they owned and had to basically leave with the clothes they were wearing and things that they could carry.
    My Pakistani roommate said that her grandfather was compensated by the Pakistani government for the land he left behind in India, but it was nowhere as fertile etc.

  33. 33.

    RaflW

    @bystander:

    Of course, Hollande, like most French, admires and respects Obama, and he has made it abundantly clear.

    And that will vanish down the U.S. newsmedia hole in less than one second.

  36. 36.

    Betty Cracker

    @schrodinger’s cat: I don’t know, aside from the fact that he’s held a position in the government before, so maybe Joe & Co. assume he has a rudimentary understanding of how it works? If so, they’re too optimistic on that score. Really, all of them are so awful that they might as well settle on Trump. I’m starting to think they actually will.

  38. 38.

    Mandalay

    @sharl:

    After severely clamping down on what was left of independent media, Bush Putin Trump Erdogan started screaming that there was a much heightened risk of terrorism from Saddam Chechens Syrian refugees Kurds.

    You win the thread for that.

  40. 40.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Betty Cracker:
    Trump actually wants the government to function, if directed by lunatic whims, and is much more in favor of using federal power to murder and oppress brown people. Cruz would like to remove the federal government and leans towards freeing up states, local officials, and the average white man to murder and oppress brown people.

  42. 42.

    Renie

    Pardon my ignorance but all this talk by the RWNJ about Obama not doing enough against Daesh, isn’t part of the issue Congress won’t authorize him to use military force? And if this is preventing him from expanding like they want him to – why is no one bringing this up?

  44. 44.

    Elizabelle

    @Frankensteinbeck: I’d take Trump over Cruz in a walk. Trump has a closer to earth orbit, and is not as mean — or as bought, frankly — as Cruz.

    Cruz has taken in a few yachtloads of $$$ from plutocrats and energy moguls.

  46. 46.

    catclub

    @gene108: I am pretty sure that during the campaign, Bush promised he would go forward with climate change cooperation. Then he got elected.

  50. 50.

    catclub

    @Renie:

    And if this is preventing him from expanding like they want him to

    It isn’t. The 2001 AUMF is useful for wars against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    The congress should shut down the 2001 AUMF and perhaps issue a new one for the present conditions.
    It will never do the first and is unlikely to do the second.

  53. 53.

    MomSense

    @Renie:

    Pardon my ignorance but all this talk by the RWNJ about Obama not doing enough against Daesh, isn’t part of the issue Congress won’t authorize him to use military force? And if this is preventing him from expanding like they want him to – why is no one bringing this up?

    Because the pundits and journalists can’t hear me shouting at my television. I have no idea. It is crazy making.

  54. 54.

    Belafon

    @Renie: How are they going to impeach Obama for being a dictator and then install a dictator if they can’t force Obama to act like a dictator?

  56. 56.

    Cacti

    I’m getting a huge kick out of the right wingers’ outrage over Turkey forcefully addressing repeated Russian incursions into its airspace.

    Moscow bully boy finally provokes a neighbor that is neither weak nor poorly armed, and gets a well deserved punch in the nose.

    Bob in Portland must be apoplectic.

  57. 57.

    Betty Cracker

    @MattF: They also had some polls that showed Cruz moving up in Iowa (IIRC). I think Carson lost some of the hardcore evangelicals when he derped out on foreign policy.

  60. 60.

    catclub

    @Betty Cracker:

    It sounds like they’ve settled on Ted Cruz as the establishment savior who will knock Trump off the dumpster heap.

    Good news, if true, for Cruz. being called the establishment one is impressive progress for the most hated senator – by his GOP colleagues.

  61. 61.

    Amir Khalid

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    There’s more to it than that. Aside from not containing anything from a non-halal animal or non-halal slaughtered animal, the cranberry sauce must also not contain any sort of intoxicant, including but not limited to alcohol. For instance, it must not contain sow’s milk or frog’s eggs, or be laced with marijuana or hashish. (He said with a stern face.)

  63. 63.

    MomSense

    @MomSense: @Belafon:

    I even heard Leon Panetta talk about how the President threatened Assad and failed to follow through. No mention of Congress not authorizing military action.

    The media refuse to hold Republicans accountable for anything.

    ETA changed podesta to panetta

  64. 64.

    Paul in KY

    It would be cool if Pres. Hollande sorta acted like ‘Luther’ and had comments like:

    “Wuhuhhuhhuh, I am just a French Continental, but even I am not scared at all by these savages & I can assure you that France is not cowering in fear. That is the only response one can make to these evil acts.”

    Something like that, belittling the little men who trade in fear.

  65. 65.

    catclub

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Cruz would like to remove the federal government and leans towards freeing up states, local officials, and the average white man to murder and oppress brown people.

    But will still expand military, as a backup.

  66. 66.

    MattF

    @Cacti: Also, a couple of centuries of history show why the Turks are… sensitive… about the possibility of Russian incursions into their airspace.

  67. 67.

    Paul in KY

    @sharl: I would think that killing Russian pilots as they parachute to the ground would be displeasing to Darth Putin.

    If I was those Turkmen, would be getting ready for the shit hitting the fan.

  70. 70.

    bystander

    @RaflW: Charlie Rose recapped his interview of David Petraeus on CBS morning show. (I would never voluntarily watch his own show but I watch CBS in the morning as the least offensive option at 8 AM.) Petraeus basically said what we should be doing and it happens to be essentially what Obama is doing right now. If he had bitched and second guessed the POTUS it would have been the lead story on every network.

  72. 72.

    catclub

    @MattF: Turks have been total assholes for the last four years in the Syrian war. They have sided with ISIS. Recruits to ISIS have no problems traversing Turkey. ISIS oil
    is ‘smuggled’ through Turkey. They claim to start attacking ISIS and then bomb the Kurds.

    And they are our NATO ‘allies’.

    [‘Last four years’ does not prohibit them having been assholes for far longer.]

  76. 76.

    Amir Khalid

    @Paul in KY:
    Ahem … Turkmen are an entirely different ethnic group from the Turks. They live in an entirely different country, the former Soviet republic of Turkmenistan, which doesn’t even share a border with Turkey.

  77. 77.

    Peale

    @MomSense: @Amir Khalid:

    For instance, it must not contain sow’s milk or frog’s eggs, or be laced with marijuana or hashish.

    Great Grandma Peale would find it difficult to prepare a meal with such restrictions and would complain about fussy eaters, before retiring to her bedroom through a haze of smoke.

  79. 79.

    mai naem mobile

    According to Trumpy, unless Obama takes his yoooooge black appendage and waves it around during the press conference, yelling “This is America and it will fvck you with shock and awe!!!”, Obama’s just a yooooge black thug musleem loooozer.
    Also too, Lil Teddy Cruz won the heavily coveted endorsement of Hollywood actor James Woods.

  80. 80.

    scav

    @Amir Khalid: Noted! (attempting a serious face). There are clearly non-halal variants yet to be explored in our immediately local cranberry abominations, although we’ve at least one obvious base covered.

  82. 82.

    Matt McIrvin

    538 invites a former Republican speechwriter, Barton Swaim, to write the most pandering Republican stump speech possible, endorsing only positions favored by most Republicans.

    The thing that I find amusing here is not the bits of advocacy Swaim tries to slip in via the supporting footnotes, it’s that Swaim pulls back in a big way on pandering to bigotry over the Syrian refugees; his speech advocates letting some of them in while somehow being more careful than Obama. You and I know that that ain’t what the Republican base is itching to hear. But at least some Republicans seem reluctant to admit it.

  83. 83.

    Kropadope

    @Cacti:

    I’m getting a huge kick out of the right wingers’ outrage over Turkey forcefully addressing repeated Russian incursions into its airspace.

    More evidence to support the theory that they want to call Putin “Dear Leader.”

  85. 85.

    Amir Khalid

    @Paul in KY:
    No, no, no. Sow’s milk is not an intoxicant. It’s just not halal. Frogs are amphibians and thus also not halal as is anything that comes from them, like their eggs. Frog’s eggs are not intoxicants. (You’re thinking of venom from a certain species of toad, but that’s actually not an intoxicant either. Sorry to disappoint you.) Marijuana and hashish are intoxicants and also not halal, despite the latter’s origins in the Muslim world.

  86. 86.

    Kropadope

    @MomSense:

    I even heard Leon Panetta talk about how the President threatened Assad and failed to follow through. No mention of Congress not authorizing military action.

    This is B.S. Assad agreed to give up his chemical weapons and Obama backed off on the military threat, his goal having been achieved diplomatically.

    No mention of Congress not authorizing military action.

    Like that would’ve stopped him.

    The media refuse to hold Republicans accountable for anything.

    Such as, for example, calling Obama weak for not bombing ISIL right up until the point where he requested authorization, then they turned against the idea in ten seconds flat.

  88. 88.

    MattF

    @catclub: I’m not excusing Turkey– I agree that Turkey is a bad actor in the current Mideast mess, and has been a very bad actor at times in the past as well.

  89. 89.

    goblue72

    Since the Paris attacks, there have been approximately 330 gun-related murders in the United States. That’s nearly 3 times as many people who died in the Paris attacks. Meanwhile, actual white supremacists shoot black anti-cop violence protestors in whitey-white Minneapolis and the police are “debating” whether it was actually a hate crime.

    Wake me up when we actually start giving a shit about the real problems this country faces – and not some mau-mau performance over a non-existential threat terrorist attack that took place on the other side of the ocean.

  90. 90.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @Betty Cracker:

    Seems like a really shitty thing to do (killing parachuting pilots, I mean).

    It is, but so is war. For guerrilla groups, who often don’t have any way to hold on to prisoners, not shooting them is basically the same thing as letting them go to continue bombing them. It’s also very difficult to tell people that the right to shoot back at their enemies stops at the very moment that they have the capacity to shoot back at their enemies. So, while it is a shitty thing to do, it’s also understandable.

  92. 92.

    NotMax

    @Amir Khalid

    As my recipe for the best cranberry sauce in the known galaxy includes Grand Marnier, unfortunate that it is verboten.

    One person with whom the secret was shared some years ago later related that she purposely prepares lots of extra solely to be able to eat a bowl of it in the mornings instead of cereal.

    Breakfast of (>hic) champions. :)

  93. 93.

    scav

    @Amir Khalid: OK, never having considered milking a pig, is this (like many other prohibitions) actually ruling out actual products? That is to say, is there some sort of sows milk Camembert or yogurt that has somehow eluded my stash of cheese tomes. (Sow’s milk Tomme?) Or is this just more being really really OCD about working out all the theory.

  94. 94.

    Germy

    Last week, Karl Rove welcomed terrorism as a winning issue for Republicans and cited a September poll from Gallup showing that 52 percent of the public believes that Republicans will do a better job of protecting America, while only 36 percent says the same of Democrats. But that poll was taken before the Paris attacks. The latest Washington Post–ABC News poll, conducted since Paris, found that despite a drop in Obama’s numbers, Hillary Clinton was more trusted to “handle the threat of terrorism” in one-on-one matchups with every major GOP presidential candidate. That 3 a.m. phone-call ad that failed in 2008 may easily mow down the gaseous GOP armchair generals of 2016.

    from NYMag

  97. 97.

    Archon

    @Betty Cracker:

    Expecting someone who has just indiscriminately dropped bombs on people to be treated humanely is a very western way of thinking. The North Vietnamese called our pilots “air pirates” and from their perspective I can’t disagree.

    If I’m a Syrian insurgent fighting Assad I would not have a lot of sympathy for a Russian pilot.

  98. 98.

    Amir Khalid

    @Matt McIrvin:
    It looked to me like this was a pander Barton Swaim just couldn’t bring himself to write, even though many (maybe even most) Republicans would be perfectly fine with not letting in any Syrians at all — like the Presidential candidate who wants to keep the orphan toddlers out.

  101. 101.

    goblue72

    @Archon: No kidding. And if those parachuting pilots were paratroopers, blowing them out of the sky with AA fire wouldn’t be a problem.

    We turn the global South into a semi-permanent war zone, support warlords, dictators & sheikhs out of our own self-interest, bomb entire countries because we feel like invading them & NOT because they have anything to do with 9-11. And then expect the “natives” to play by our rules? Rules designed around the context of wealthy nation-states having wealthy nation-state organized wars with each other?

    Interesting.

  103. 103.

    Germy

    Open Thread

    The American Bystander Magazine is launching. Had a successful kickstarter campaign and issue #1 has gone to the printer.

    A quarterly humor magazine with NO advertising. With contributors from The Simpsons, Monty Python, National Lampoon, New Yorker…

  105. 105.

    Amir Khalid

    @scav:
    For what it’s worth, I have not heard of sow’s milk being consumed by anyone but the sow’s own piglets. Nor of frog’s eggs as a food product for humans. But you never know.

  106. 106.

    Poopyman

    @Paul in KY:

    From the CNN article on the shootdown:
    There was no ISIS presence along that border area, but there were Turkmen there, Erdogan said. So anyone who bombs that area attacks “our brothers and sisters — Turkmen,” Erdogan said in Ankara. (Turkmen are a Turkic-speaking, traditionally nomadic people who live primarily in Central Asia, but a small minority of them can be found in the Middle East, primarily in northern Iraq, Iran and Turkey.)

  109. 109.

    Poopyman

    This was in CNN’s updated article as of 13:18 EST:

    Abu Ibrahim al-Sheghri, the military leader in the 10th coastal brigade and part of the Turkmen Mountain Military Operation Room, told CNN that the body of one of the pilots had been found in the Nibh Almur area of Syria.The brigade is searching for the other pilot in the same area, he said.

    No report of having actually shot a pilot at this source.

  110. 110.

    Peale

    @Anoniminous: I don’t see that much of a difference between Trump and Cruz personality wise. Given the choice, I’d go with Trump, who seems to be less extremist. Yeah, I mean that. Minorities, women, children, immigrants, the elderly, veterans, and the white rihno population would all be better served by Trump even if he clearly doesn’t have their interests in mind.

  112. 112.

    Germy

    @Peale: I’m guessing Trump eats white rhino steaks for breakfast with his frogs’ eggs, but he isn’t any worse than any other of the gOp hopefuls.

  114. 114.

    sharl

    @sharl: A darkly whimsical aside that incorporates a slight corrective modification of my thumbnail bio of Zeynep:

    Andrew Kaczynski @BuzzFeedAndrew

    Advisory notice:

    The window has closed for jokes involving the country Turkey & the food America consumes at Thanksgiving.

    Thank you.

    Razor @hale_razor

    In Russian Thanksgiving, Turkey shoots you.

    Zeynep Tufekci @zeynep

    @BuzzFeedAndrew I went to a US middle school. I could have sworn there no new Turkey/turkey Thanksgiving jokes possible.

  115. 115.

    Archon

    @Peale:

    A week ago I might have agreed with you but now I think Trump is genuinely dangerous in ways Cruz isn’t. His latest comments involve waterboarding which he basically said he will it back even if it doesn’t work because that’s what they deserve.

    Cruz is a con man but he’s not making a mockery out of American values like Trump is.

  116. 116.

    schrodinger's cat

    How much of the current mess in the Middle East is the result of the national boundaries imposed by the British and the French after the end of World War I, following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

  117. 117.

    catclub

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: At LGM it was noted that shooting downed pilots is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. It was also noted that since the militiamen are irregulars, that are not really signatories to and or bound by the Geneva Conventions.

  118. 118.

    Anoniminous

    @Betty Cracker:

    Seems like a really shitty thing to do (killing parachuting pilots, I mean).

    Part of the gig. If you don’t want to get killed while floating down from the sky into an area you’ve just bombed the shit out of and killed a bunch of people don’t get in the airplane. Same sort of thing happens in ground combat too. Not unsurprisingly once the kill reflex: see enemy, shoot enemy, kicks in it takes a while to dwindle.

  119. 119.

    catclub

    @schrodinger’s cat: A lot. I think that splitting Iraq and Syria into
    Sunni and Shia sections, and establishing a kurdish nation would be good things. Interestingly, Juan Cole thinks this is not nearly so good an idea, and is not going to happen. I suspect i agree with the ‘not going to happen’ part.

  120. 120.

    Anoniminous

    @Peale:

    For me the choice between Cruz and Trump is a choice between being burned at the stake or dipped in boiling oil

  121. 121.

    Archon

    @goblue72:

    The interesting part is how the romantic and knightly aspect of military pilots and flying is deeply ingrained in Western culture. Even the Nazis, the most cruel regime that has ever existed treated British and American pilots who had just indiscriminately firebombed entire German cities with dignity.

    I suspect non-Westerners, especially of former colonial regions look at air power in a completely different way.

  123. 123.

    sharl

    @Origuy: I was once curious about why it was Seljuk Turks that defeated the Byzantines at the 1071 Battle of Manzikert, but it was Ottoman Turks who ultimately came to rule what is now Turkey.

    Well that turned out to not be a matter of differing Turkic tribes, but rather a name change (well, at least kinda-sorta…). But while tracking that stuff down, I found this Wikipedia page on the history of Turkic migrations.

    If/when I retire, maybe I’ll have time to return to those maps and discussions, and make sense of it all. I might succeed at that…maybe. But the bottom line is, there are descendants of Turkish tribes all over Asia and Europe. Their ancestors really got around.

  126. 126.

    Amir Khalid

    @catclub:
    Yielding territory to help establish a nation of Kurdistan is an over-my-dead-body proposition for the Arab nations concerned.

  128. 128.

    Matt McIrvin

    @sharl: A while back I learned just why it is that these birds are called “turkeys”. It’s because they were mistakenly conflated with guinea fowl, who were called “turkeys” because they were mistakenly believed to be from Turkey (Turkish merchants sold them).

    A mistake on top of a mistake. I’m sure this is a metaphor for something.

  131. 131.

    joes527

    @Elizabelle: Trump is chaotic evil, which means that he is a nasty piece of work, but occasionally turns on the bad guys just because: fuck everyone who isn’t Trump. Most of the rest of the field are neutral evil which means that they can be counted on to always do the worst thing possible.

  136. 136.

    goblue72

    @Archon: My wife’s mother thinks of American pilots as those people way up in the sky who bombed her school in Vietnam such that her education stopped at the 6th grade. Because there might have been Commies hiding in the broom closet.

    Her grandmother thinks of American pilots as those people who bombed her village and left her with shrapnel permanently embedded in her hip, forcing her village to hide in caves periodically whenever the Yanks flew over. Again, because Commies.

  137. 137.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Amir Khalid: The problem it seems to me, is with the Arab countries in the Middle East, even our so called allies. Not a problem with Islam or clash of civilizations or whatever the right wingers over here come up with.

    ETA: The former colonial powers of France and Britain, and United States which has followed in their footsteps and the current despotic regimes in the Arab world are all to blame for the status quo. There is a lot of blame to go around. Fixating on the latest murderous ideologues misses that big picture.

  141. 141.

    Paul in KY

    @Anoniminous: I’m going to go with being burned at the stake. If lucky, you might die of smoke inhalation before the flames got you.

    Edit: In Middle Ages, if they had pity on you, they would use a lot of green wood for that reason.

  143. 143.

    catclub

    @joes527: A whole lot of people who claimed they would move to Canada if Reagan got elected, didn’t. Most lived.

    Also, Barack Obama was elected.

  145. 145.

    Mandalay

    @MomSense:

    I even heard Leon Panetta talk about how the President threatened Assad and failed to follow through.

    Which is entirely true, so that criticism is fair. President Obama’s never should have issued that red line threat to Assad in the first place. With hindsight it was clearly a blunder, but plenty of people also said so at the time.

    That said, back stabbing Panetta can go fuck himself.

  146. 146.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodinger’s cat: They always want the President to declare “war on radical Islam”, which is an even broader and dumber idea than declaring “war on terror”. How do you fight a declared war on a religious movement, or a religious tendency? Even if they only mean “you know, Muslim bad guys“, declaring war on every bad guy everywhere is just a way to cover the world in blood.

  147. 147.

    Poopyman

    @Amir Khalid: They’re not. They seem to be the same peoples.

    Meanwhile, in truly horrifying Geneva-Convention-defying acts by non-state actors:

    ​Anonymous is wielding a new weapon of mass disruption in its ongoing social media war with the Islamic State—Rick Astley videos.

    The “hacktivist” group has been flooding all pro-ISIS hashtags with countless videos of the red-headed bass-baritone, according to a recent tweet from the #OpParis account.

    Our upcoming action: spamming verified ISIS hashtags with rickrolls. Will release the list as soon as it’s compiled.

    — #OpParis (@OpParisOfficial) November 18, 2015

  148. 148.

    Peale

    @schrodinger’s cat: Fixating on the 1920s also misses the boat as it exempts people living a century later from the the headaches they are causing. The problem that the US is causing is related to some kind of belief it had that it’s post war life depends on it be the guarantor of the oil supply everywhere.

  149. 149.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Peale: I am not absolving US tactics or strategy at all. See my reply to Amir Khalid.

    In many ways, after WW II the United States inherited the mantle of being the western global power from Britain and France.

    To understand a problem as complex as the current situation in the Middle East it is not a bad idea to look at the origin of the problem.

  150. 150.

    Matt McIrvin

    @schrodinger’s cat: The thing that always gets me is, even granting that ISIS has to be gotten rid of, what then? ISIS emerged to fill the power vacuum created by the efforts to kill the previous bunch of bad guys (and some of them even are the same people). What’s worse than ISIS? Do we have to go and find out? I don’t get the sense that any kind of long-term plan exists, any more than there was one when Bush invaded Iraq. At least it’s an international effort so the blame can be spread around, if the partners don’t all manage to kill each other first.

  151. 151.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Paul in KY:
    The Turks don’t give a rat’s ass what is upsetting to Darth Putin. Putin’s Russia is one tenth the population of the Soviet Union, and its military is a dilapidated, out-of-date wreck that Putin has already overextended.

  153. 153.

    NotMax

    @catclub

    Setting aside the Kurds (not a religion) for just a moment, short reasons (far from a comprehensive list) why not a wise concept in practice.

    1) Who gets what? Natural resources and access to arable lands, water, harborage, defensible borders, infrastructure and shrines are not spread evenly across Iraq.

    2) Presumes on the face that “Sunni” and “Shia” are each homogeneous groups, not the reality that there are factions within sects within tribes within affiliations. Also seemingly presumes that political authority is indistinguishable from religious authority.

    3) Long, even ancient, residence and property ownership by non-Muslim populations (Yazidi, Christian (mix of mostly Chaldean, Assyrian and Syriac churches), and Mandaeans, for example).

    4) History in Iraq of far from insignificant numbers of Sunni-Shia marriages and extended families of same.

  154. 154.

    Sherparick

    @Marnie: A very early morning drinking game.

    Between the Republicans and the VSPs in the media, Obama is beaten up for preventing any bad thing that happens anywhere in the world and it is implied all sorts of bad things will happen here. It has had an affect. http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/24/poll-watch-low-marks-for-president-obama-on-terrorism/?ribbon-ad-idx=5&rref=politics&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&pgtype=article

    The Republicans and the Right-Wing Noise machine is on constant offensive against the Administration and they will never regain the confidence of those poor souls in Fox Mordor. But on the shows and editorial pages, the left-wing pundits will never give a full throated defense of the Obama Administration because of the drone war, the NSA surveillance, and the interventions which it does not approve. This is one advantage of a Republican Administration, they will get the loyal support of their pundits no matter what as long as they are bombing and torturing “those people.”

  158. 158.

    Mandalay

    @Cacti:

    Moscow bully boy finally provokes a neighbor that is neither weak nor poorly armed, and gets a well deserved punch in the nose.

    Yep. And the best part is that Putin can’t retaliate against Turkey, which is now being publicly backed by NATO over the shooting:

    The Nato chief has backed Turkey’s version of the story, and said that an allied assessment shows that the Russian warplane did fly into Turkish airspace.

    I wonder what the Villagers who were smugly insisting Putin was a wily old fox who outsmarted President Obama by intervening in Syria are saying right now.

  161. 161.

    catclub

    @Mandalay:

    I wonder what the Villagers who were smugly insisting Putin was a wily old fox who outsmarted President Obama by intervening in Syria are saying right now.

    Some different stupid thing, and trying to distract from this observation.

  162. 162.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Paul in KY: The population of the USSR at the time of its demise was about 290M. The population of Russia at that time was about 148M. The population of Russia has declined somewhat in the intervening time, pretty steadily for nearly 20 years, but has started to tick upward a little bit in the last 5 or so.

  164. 164.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Mandalay: There are some analysts who have been fretting for a while that Putin thinks NATO is weak around the edges, and that at some point he’s just going to deliberately attack a weak NATO member to force the powerful core countries to choose between Armageddon and effectively dissolving the alliance. Either everyone dies in a nuclear fireball, or Putin becomes the mighty NATO-killer.

    But Turkey probably isn’t the right country to attack: too strong.

    edit: also it assumes Putin is way more foolhardy than I suspect he actually is.

  165. 165.

    Elie

    Terrible choices btw Trump and Cruz but since Cruz is the weakest candidate I pick him to take what is left of the R brand down the toilet.

    On the downed fighter I hope Putin has a bloody nose. Told him to stay out of Sunni Shia politics but no. Not much he can do about it either except get deeper into shit.

  166. 166.

    Turgidson

    @catclub:

    Yeah, I mean, we’re now at a point where the conventional wisdom is that Obama basically hasn’t lifted a finger against ISIS to this point and has no strategy. This despite the 6,000+ air strikes the US has carried out, the ongoing international arm-twisting, the fact that ISIS has lost 25% of its territory. None of that matters because the narrative is that Obama’s doing nothing, NOTHING I tell you.

    It is in the context of this narrative that Russia’s recent, clumsy, entry into the conflict (on a smaller scale, albeit with worse collateral damage, than ongoing US operations) was trumped up as a bold, decisive move to act (and WIN) where Obama can’t or won’t. And where France’s retaliatory bombing of Raqqa was lauded similarly, without mention of how few strikes France has carried out to date, and how the US carries out that many strikes pretty much every day.

    There’s plenty to criticize in Obama’s foreign policy, from whatever direction you prefer, but the notion that he’s doing basically nothing against ISIS is somehow the one that’s taken hold, even as (almost) none of his critics and wannabe successors can actually explain how they’d do things differently other than yell louder and shake their fists, or something.

    We’re well and truly f’ed. I lately find myself amazed that Obama ever won the presidency in the first place, considering how ill-suited he is to the head-trauma-stupidity of the nation’s politics/media these days.

  169. 169.

    Betty Cracker

    @Elie: I wish I felt more confident that the same isn’t true of the US (should stay out of the Sunni-Shia conflict and is in danger of getting sucked in deeper).

  173. 173.

    sharl

    @Amir Khalid: Comment #54 from the next post

    WordPress Developers says:
    November 24, 2015 at 4:06 pm

    Folks,

    Sorry I made the site puke. Apparently my nausea is contagious, so I’ll leave that set of wires for another day.

    In return for the inconvenience you suffered, after a little break, I’ll get those Comment buttons so they’re readable and perhaps a few other small items on the big to-do list.

    – Alain

  175. 175.

    Betty Cracker

    @schrodinger’s cat: Does it have any upside these days? The graft opportunities used to be fabulous back when we were basically functioning as international gangsters, but now it looks like all the profit is privatized and all the risk is socialized…

  176. 176.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Betty Cracker: You have to ask the neo-cons since they are the biggest advocates of the global policeman role.

    I will now put my self in some neo-con shoes and try to answer this question.

    Even if the profit opportunities are on the wane. Being the global policeman brings you bragging rights, if not respect. Someone has to be the boss, so why not us? Also too, the most powerful military in the world needs something to do.

  177. 177.

    MomSense

    @Mandalay:

    I don’t think it was a blunder. The threat of force was sufficiently credible that we got Assad to give up his chemical weapons with Russia taking responsibility for making sure it happened.

    We played the parties brilliantly.

  178. 178.

    Elie

    @Mandalay:

    I am so late to the thread but you are so right! Lets see ol Putinasty slime his way through this. He can’t do or say much of anything …

    He was told to stay out of sunni/shia games, but he just couldn’t resist the opportunity to show the west up. Now, he has one his planes shot down and what — hes gonna whine about how it wasn’t really in Turkey or some such? That is not what “powertful men TM” do. But wait – taking revenge is not going to make his situation vis a vis his exposure on ISIS related sunni issues better — in fact would make it worse — not just because of Daesh/ISIS is sunni but his own restive young potential sunni rebels in the “stans” are watching his ass. Like they say, “sin in haste, repent a leisure”. He was looking pretty smart up until he wasn’t…

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