No, not on Balloon Juice — at the White House. Presidents Obama and Hollande are set to discuss joint efforts to counter ISIL / ISIS / Daesh as well as the global climate conference that will be held in Paris soon. Should start any second. Streaming feed here.
[H/T: Valued commenter SiubhanDuinne]Reader Interactions
178Comments
Comments are closed.
gene108
Bill Clinton and his Administration were pushing for the U.S. to get on board with the Kyoto Protocols.
Then GWB and his fossil fuel industry buddies were in charge and I think Bush, Jr. set back the cause of addressing global climate change by at least a decade.
Just one more thing, in which Bush & Co helped to screw up the world just a little bit more than it would’ve been, if they were not in charge.
Elizabelle
On C-Span 1 too, and CNN was covering.
Thanks Mmes Cracker and Duinne.
Mike J
What is Obama doing to address the site redesign? Throwing us under the veal pen again.
SiubhanDuinne
Thanks for the fresh, dedicated thread, BC.
JGabriel
@Mike J:
Slapping us in the back and stabbing us on the face! Or versa vice or something like that.
jl
Heard news update on mess in Turkey. Apparently Turkey shot down Russian plan in a dogfight (WTF?), and rebel force on the ground shot and killed one of the pilots after he ejected. Other pilot missing. What a mess.
Glad someone like Obama is in charge now. I hope reality check of how bad these things can get makes an impression on voters in general election. Will be ‘interesting’ to see what happens in the GOP primary madhouse (using that term for both the GOP presidential contestants and the primary voting base).
jl
@JGabriel: Thanks, I was wondering how Obama failed us over last couple of weeks.
Heard news report that Turkey downed Russian fighter in a dogfight (WTF were they thinking?) and rebels on the ground shot and killed Russian pilot after he ejected, and other pilot missing. What a mess.
Edit: thing is why trust Erdogan to play straighter than Putin. Erdogan is just as much an authoritarian asshole as Putin, he just faces more effective democratic restraints in Turkey (so far…)
Elizabelle
How did Obama fail us in his comments? I tuned in pretty late.
Quite sure after today’s shitshow, Morning Joe will find Obama remiss at … whatever. I won’t tune in. Today was enough of a reminder to stay away.
maya
@Mike J:
He’s going to throw Hollande sauce all over it, obviously.
Davebo
Why can’t Hollande speak english! He’s in murica dang it!
SiubhanDuinne
@Davebo:
Inorite? Who does he think he is, John Kerry?
Elizabelle
Ah, the reporters’ questions. The occasion for levity, if it exists.
The Pale Scot
Why did I get an itchy feeling between my shoulder blades when Obama was saying how successful the DHS has been?
“Olof Björnsson hasn’t missed a field goal in 18 games, this next one will be a chip shot to ice the game”
benw
@maya:
LOL. And on Thanksgiving, too, instead of good ol’ American gravy! Why does Obama hate America?
Marc McKenzie
@gene108: Yeah, but you know there was not a dime’s worth of difference between Bush and Gore…
scav
@benw: Pardoning two turkeys (soft on stuffing!), probably uses a halal cranberry recipe, to symbolize Communizm!
Keith G
@Mike J:
He said if we liked our old design, we can keep our old design.
sharl
@jl: Yep, it is one hell of a mess.
From a Turkish-born and raised American academic:
A more cynically derived possibility: Turkish government is feeding such statements to their pals in local media to try to keep Russians/Putin settled down. If one or both pilots end up being dead, Turks can say ‘sorry…we tried to save them.’
Punchy
That Hollande guy really speaks his mind. Indeed, he’s….saucy. One day he’ll end up with egg on his face, but at least he’s a loyal Frenchman. He’s no Benedict…Arnold.
bystander
All morning long, every talking head was blabbing about how Hollande was going to tell our Kenyan Usurper he needs to step up and start doing something about ISIS. Of course, Hollande, like most French, admires and respects Obama, and he has made it abundantly clear.
I hate the media more than ever.
jl
@sharl: Turkey may be playing the same game in Syria as Russians, in a way. May have been using pretext of strikes against Daesh to hit Kurds in Syria.
Dork
@Punchy: Not so sure about the “loyal Frenchman” part…he’s often seen with those UK squishies. Ya know, those English muffins.
MomSense
My kid is coming home today for Thanksgiving and the weekend before he leaves for Paris. Yes, I am nervous about it but my mom reminded me that I was in Paris the same year the Amex office and other places were bombed and that she had done a lot of pacing waiting for me to call from a pay phone.
I also flew the same TWA route after one of their flights was hijacked. Some guy behind me in line for a different flight laughed and asked me if I packed for 40 days and nights.
C’est la vie.
Jay C
@sharl:
And yet another report I just read said that one of the ejected [Russian] pilots had been rescued by helicopter, and that the other had been shot dead by some local “militiamen”.
I’m afraid a coherent and cohesive account of this sorry incident is still a long way off (if ever).
And yeah, if Obama had only shown some leadership, we wouldn;t have had near as many problems with the site redesign! Thanks, Barry….!
Mandalay
BBC Radio 4 just interviewed a Syrian refugee in England at a shopping mall. She said it was beautiful, and it reminded her of the one she owned in Syria.
Being poor isn’t a prerequisite for being a refugee.
Peale
The strategy for finally containing ISIS revealed. Now if we can just keep calm for 20 seconds, it just might work.
Marnie
@Elizabelle:
Belafon
@Mandalay: “We need to allow the job-creating Syrians in!”
sharl
@jl: Yes, the Kurds are always at the top of the List of Things to Worry About for the Turks, regardless of who is running the government. IIRC, the Turks increased their assaults against the Kurds almost before the ink had dried on the deal with the U.S. to allow our forces to use Turkish military bases (especially advantageous for our Air Force).
There was also domestic Turkish politics. When legislative elections in June did not go well for the ruling AKP, new elections were scheduled. After severely clamping down on what was left of independent media,
BushPutinTrumpErdogan started screaming that there was a much heightened risk of terrorism fromSaddamChechensSyrian refugeesKurds. There was no independent media left to call BS on this.For the most part, it worked.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: I almost never watch Morning Joe but heard a few moments of it this morning while searching the couch cushions for the remote. It sounds like they’ve settled on Ted Cruz as the establishment savior who will knock Trump off the dumpster heap.
schrodinger's cat
@Mandalay: When India was partitioned a lot of wealthy Hindu and Sikh farm owners lost everything they owned and had to basically leave with the clothes they were wearing and things that they could carry.
My Pakistani roommate said that her grandfather was compensated by the Pakistani government for the land he left behind in India, but it was nowhere as fertile etc.
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker: What is the difference between Cruz and Trump? He seems like a younger and even uglier version.
RaflW
@bystander:
And that will vanish down the U.S. newsmedia hole in less than one second.
Ken
@Dork: Those are Freedom Muffins now.
Frankensteinbeck
@Mike J:
An anonymous administration insider says that Obama will announce threaded comments in his SOTU address.
Betty Cracker
@schrodinger’s cat: I don’t know, aside from the fact that he’s held a position in the government before, so maybe Joe & Co. assume he has a rudimentary understanding of how it works? If so, they’re too optimistic on that score. Really, all of them are so awful that they might as well settle on Trump. I’m starting to think they actually will.
bemused
@Betty Cracker:
Wow.
Mandalay
@sharl:
You win the thread for that.
Betty Cracker
@Peale: Haha! Love the way that guy in the back on the phone crab-walks the hell out of there!
Frankensteinbeck
@Betty Cracker:
Trump actually wants the government to function, if directed by lunatic whims, and is much more in favor of using federal power to murder and oppress brown people. Cruz would like to remove the federal government and leans towards freeing up states, local officials, and the average white man to murder and oppress brown people.
schrodinger's cat
@scav: Aren’t all cranberries halal? Isn’t halal more of a reference to how an animal/bird was slaughtered.
Renie
Pardon my ignorance but all this talk by the RWNJ about Obama not doing enough against Daesh, isn’t part of the issue Congress won’t authorize him to use military force? And if this is preventing him from expanding like they want him to – why is no one bringing this up?
Bobby Thomson
OT but someone called in some markers at the NYT. They’re going after Trump like he’s a Clinton.
Elizabelle
@Frankensteinbeck: I’d take Trump over Cruz in a walk. Trump has a closer to earth orbit, and is not as mean — or as bought, frankly — as Cruz.
Cruz has taken in a few yachtloads of $$$ from plutocrats and energy moguls.
Bobby Thomson
@Betty Cracker: unlike Rubio and Bush, Cruz actually has a shot at winning in Iowa and in a few southern primaries.
catclub
@gene108: I am pretty sure that during the campaign, Bush promised he would go forward with climate change cooperation. Then he got elected.
schrodinger's cat
@Elizabelle: Most of his donors are Wall Street hedge funders
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: Even worse!
MattF
@Betty Cracker: Rumor has it that Cruz is moving, microscopically, away from Trump– and maybe Joe is getting the message.
catclub
@Renie:
It isn’t. The 2001 AUMF is useful for wars against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
The congress should shut down the 2001 AUMF and perhaps issue a new one for the present conditions.
It will never do the first and is unlikely to do the second.
MattF
@Elizabelle: I don’t know. It’s like a competition for the worst person in the world. They’re both awful.
scav
@schrodinger’s cat: (that was rather the point — see also Islamic communism. It’s the scattershot.)
MomSense
@Renie:
Because the pundits and journalists can’t hear me shouting at my television. I have no idea. It is crazy making.
Belafon
@Renie: How are they going to impeach Obama for being a dictator and then install a dictator if they can’t force Obama to act like a dictator?
MattF
And, completely OT, this Slate essay celebrates the work of the greatest, strangest historian you never heard of, Frances Yates.
Cacti
I’m getting a huge kick out of the right wingers’ outrage over Turkey forcefully addressing repeated Russian incursions into its airspace.
Moscow bully boy finally provokes a neighbor that is neither weak nor poorly armed, and gets a well deserved punch in the nose.
Bob in Portland must be apoplectic.
Betty Cracker
@MattF: They also had some polls that showed Cruz moving up in Iowa (IIRC). I think Carson lost some of the hardcore evangelicals when he derped out on foreign policy.
schrodinger's cat
No FP love for Einstein?
schrodinger's cat
Serious thread needs serious kittehs!
catclub
@Betty Cracker:
Good news, if true, for Cruz. being called the establishment one is impressive progress for the most hated senator – by his GOP colleagues.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
There’s more to it than that. Aside from not containing anything from a non-halal animal or non-halal slaughtered animal, the cranberry sauce must also not contain any sort of intoxicant, including but not limited to alcohol. For instance, it must not contain sow’s milk or frog’s eggs, or be laced with marijuana or hashish. (He said with a stern face.)
Frankensteinbeck
@Cacti:
He’ll assure us that Turkey did it because the CIA told them to.
MomSense
@MomSense: @Belafon:
I even heard Leon Panetta talk about how the President threatened Assad and failed to follow through. No mention of Congress not authorizing military action.
The media refuse to hold Republicans accountable for anything.
ETA changed podesta to panetta
Paul in KY
It would be cool if Pres. Hollande sorta acted like ‘Luther’ and had comments like:
“Wuhuhhuhhuh, I am just a French Continental, but even I am not scared at all by these savages & I can assure you that France is not cowering in fear. That is the only response one can make to these evil acts.”
Something like that, belittling the little men who trade in fear.
catclub
@Frankensteinbeck:
But will still expand military, as a backup.
MattF
@Cacti: Also, a couple of centuries of history show why the Turks are… sensitive… about the possibility of Russian incursions into their airspace.
Paul in KY
@sharl: I would think that killing Russian pilots as they parachute to the ground would be displeasing to Darth Putin.
If I was those Turkmen, would be getting ready for the shit hitting the fan.
Mike J
@schrodinger’s cat:
Since one of the front pagers has a new book about him out, it would seem likely one will show up.
Paul in KY
@Elizabelle: If I had to choose between Trump & Cruz, I would reluctantly have to choose Der Donaldfuhrer.
bystander
@RaflW: Charlie Rose recapped his interview of David Petraeus on CBS morning show. (I would never voluntarily watch his own show but I watch CBS in the morning as the least offensive option at 8 AM.) Petraeus basically said what we should be doing and it happens to be essentially what Obama is doing right now. If he had bitched and second guessed the POTUS it would have been the lead story on every network.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: Sows milk & frog eggs are intoxicants?
Er, what kind of frog eggs? Asking for a friend…
catclub
@MattF: Turks have been total assholes for the last four years in the Syrian war. They have sided with ISIS. Recruits to ISIS have no problems traversing Turkey. ISIS oil
is ‘smuggled’ through Turkey. They claim to start attacking ISIS and then bomb the Kurds.
And they are our NATO ‘allies’.
[‘Last four years’ does not prohibit them having been assholes for far longer.]
Germy
The GOP’s Plan to Thwart The Paris Climate Conference
They’re truly diabolical…
NotMax
@maya
More fattening, but doesn’t the traditional recipe for the sauce call for using Hollande aides?
Elizabelle
@Paul in KY: Yah.
From our bunker in some foreign country.
ETA: How quickly could Canada build that fence on its southern border?
Amir Khalid
@Paul in KY:
Ahem … Turkmen are an entirely different ethnic group from the Turks. They live in an entirely different country, the former Soviet republic of Turkmenistan, which doesn’t even share a border with Turkey.
Peale
@MomSense: @Amir Khalid:
Great Grandma Peale would find it difficult to prepare a meal with such restrictions and would complain about fussy eaters, before retiring to her bedroom through a haze of smoke.
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: WHAT???? NO HASHISH??? That does it! No more halal for me.
mai naem mobile
According to Trumpy, unless Obama takes his yoooooge black appendage and waves it around during the press conference, yelling “This is America and it will fvck you with shock and awe!!!”, Obama’s just a yooooge black thug musleem loooozer.
Also too, Lil Teddy Cruz won the heavily coveted endorsement of Hollywood actor James Woods.
scav
@Amir Khalid: Noted! (attempting a serious face). There are clearly non-halal variants yet to be explored in our immediately local cranberry abominations, although we’ve at least one obvious base covered.
Steeplejack
@schrodinger’s cat:
Bad link. You fix.
Matt McIrvin
538 invites a former Republican speechwriter, Barton Swaim, to write the most pandering Republican stump speech possible, endorsing only positions favored by most Republicans.
The thing that I find amusing here is not the bits of advocacy Swaim tries to slip in via the supporting footnotes, it’s that Swaim pulls back in a big way on pandering to bigotry over the Syrian refugees; his speech advocates letting some of them in while somehow being more careful than Obama. You and I know that that ain’t what the Republican base is itching to hear. But at least some Republicans seem reluctant to admit it.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
More evidence to support the theory that they want to call Putin “Dear Leader.”
Betty Cracker
@Paul in KY: Seems like a really shitty thing to do (killing parachuting pilots, I mean).
Amir Khalid
@Paul in KY:
No, no, no. Sow’s milk is not an intoxicant. It’s just not halal. Frogs are amphibians and thus also not halal as is anything that comes from them, like their eggs. Frog’s eggs are not intoxicants. (You’re thinking of venom from a certain species of toad, but that’s actually not an intoxicant either. Sorry to disappoint you.) Marijuana and hashish are intoxicants and also not halal, despite the latter’s origins in the Muslim world.
Kropadope
@MomSense:
This is B.S. Assad agreed to give up his chemical weapons and Obama backed off on the military threat, his goal having been achieved diplomatically.
Like that would’ve stopped him.
Such as, for example, calling Obama weak for not bombing ISIL right up until the point where he requested authorization, then they turned against the idea in ten seconds flat.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Paul in KY: I prefer the term Obergruppendonald.
MattF
@catclub: I’m not excusing Turkey– I agree that Turkey is a bad actor in the current Mideast mess, and has been a very bad actor at times in the past as well.
goblue72
Since the Paris attacks, there have been approximately 330 gun-related murders in the United States. That’s nearly 3 times as many people who died in the Paris attacks. Meanwhile, actual white supremacists shoot black anti-cop violence protestors in whitey-white Minneapolis and the police are “debating” whether it was actually a hate crime.
Wake me up when we actually start giving a shit about the real problems this country faces – and not some mau-mau performance over a non-existential threat terrorist attack that took place on the other side of the ocean.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Betty Cracker:
It is, but so is war. For guerrilla groups, who often don’t have any way to hold on to prisoners, not shooting them is basically the same thing as letting them go to continue bombing them. It’s also very difficult to tell people that the right to shoot back at their enemies stops at the very moment that they have the capacity to shoot back at their enemies. So, while it is a shitty thing to do, it’s also understandable.
Steeplejack
@MattF:
Thanks for the pointer to that. Very interesting.
And, God, Slate is a fugly site.
NotMax
@Amir Khalid
As my recipe for the best cranberry sauce in the known galaxy includes Grand Marnier, unfortunate that it is verboten.
One person with whom the secret was shared some years ago later related that she purposely prepares lots of extra solely to be able to eat a bowl of it in the mornings instead of cereal.
Breakfast of (>hic) champions. :)
scav
@Amir Khalid: OK, never having considered milking a pig, is this (like many other prohibitions) actually ruling out actual products? That is to say, is there some sort of sows milk Camembert or yogurt that has somehow eluded my stash of cheese tomes. (Sow’s milk Tomme?) Or is this just more being really really OCD about working out all the theory.
Germy
from NYMag
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: My bad on the Turkmen. Whomever shot the Russian pilots, etc. etc.
Betty Cracker
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: If you think there’s a useful distinction between “war” and “war crime,” machine-gunning ejected pilots may count as beyond the pale. If not, not.
Archon
@Betty Cracker:
Expecting someone who has just indiscriminately dropped bombs on people to be treated humanely is a very western way of thinking. The North Vietnamese called our pilots “air pirates” and from their perspective I can’t disagree.
If I’m a Syrian insurgent fighting Assad I would not have a lot of sympathy for a Russian pilot.
Amir Khalid
@Matt McIrvin:
It looked to me like this was a pander Barton Swaim just couldn’t bring himself to write, even though many (maybe even most) Republicans would be perfectly fine with not letting in any Syrians at all — like the Presidential candidate who wants to keep the orphan toddlers out.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Trubble-making kitteh is making trubble. Broke your link.
SiubhanDuinne
@Amir Khalid:
Well, there goes my new recipe!
goblue72
@Archon: No kidding. And if those parachuting pilots were paratroopers, blowing them out of the sky with AA fire wouldn’t be a problem.
We turn the global South into a semi-permanent war zone, support warlords, dictators & sheikhs out of our own self-interest, bomb entire countries because we feel like invading them & NOT because they have anything to do with 9-11. And then expect the “natives” to play by our rules? Rules designed around the context of wealthy nation-states having wealthy nation-state organized wars with each other?
Interesting.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: Generally considered not sporting in warfare. There are exceptions to the rule, however.
Germy
Open Thread
The American Bystander Magazine is launching. Had a successful kickstarter campaign and issue #1 has gone to the printer.
A quarterly humor magazine with NO advertising. With contributors from The Simpsons, Monty Python, National Lampoon, New Yorker…
Anoniminous
@Betty Cracker:
I would like some of what they are smoking. Trump is leading Cruz in Texas by 4 points and in the rest of the US by 20 points.
Amir Khalid
@scav:
For what it’s worth, I have not heard of sow’s milk being consumed by anyone but the sow’s own piglets. Nor of frog’s eggs as a food product for humans. But you never know.
Poopyman
@Paul in KY:
schrodinger's cat
Catenstein explains the General Theory
schrodinger's cat
I fixed the borked link
Poopyman
This was in CNN’s updated article as of 13:18 EST:
No report of having actually shot a pilot at this source.
Peale
@Anoniminous: I don’t see that much of a difference between Trump and Cruz personality wise. Given the choice, I’d go with Trump, who seems to be less extremist. Yeah, I mean that. Minorities, women, children, immigrants, the elderly, veterans, and the white rihno population would all be better served by Trump even if he clearly doesn’t have their interests in mind.
Germy
@schrodinger’s cat: Not sure if this is a good idea:
Exercise wheel for cats. The product gets mixed reviews (fell apart, hard to assemble, kitteh won’t go near it, etc.)
Germy
@Peale: I’m guessing Trump eats white rhino steaks for breakfast with his frogs’ eggs, but he isn’t any worse than any other of the gOp hopefuls.
Origuy
@Paul in KY: You weren’t wrong. There is a group called Syrian Turkmen, distinct from the people who live in Turkmenistan. They are Syrian citizens of Turkish ancestry. They didn’t move across the Turkish border, the border moved across them.
sharl
@sharl: A darkly whimsical aside that incorporates a slight corrective modification of my thumbnail bio of Zeynep:
Archon
@Peale:
A week ago I might have agreed with you but now I think Trump is genuinely dangerous in ways Cruz isn’t. His latest comments involve waterboarding which he basically said he will it back even if it doesn’t work because that’s what they deserve.
Cruz is a con man but he’s not making a mockery out of American values like Trump is.
schrodinger's cat
How much of the current mess in the Middle East is the result of the national boundaries imposed by the British and the French after the end of World War I, following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
catclub
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: At LGM it was noted that shooting downed pilots is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. It was also noted that since the militiamen are irregulars, that are not really signatories to and or bound by the Geneva Conventions.
Anoniminous
@Betty Cracker:
Part of the gig. If you don’t want to get killed while floating down from the sky into an area you’ve just bombed the shit out of and killed a bunch of people don’t get in the airplane. Same sort of thing happens in ground combat too. Not unsurprisingly once the kill reflex: see enemy, shoot enemy, kicks in it takes a while to dwindle.
catclub
@schrodinger’s cat: A lot. I think that splitting Iraq and Syria into
Sunni and Shia sections, and establishing a kurdish nation would be good things. Interestingly, Juan Cole thinks this is not nearly so good an idea, and is not going to happen. I suspect i agree with the ‘not going to happen’ part.
Anoniminous
@Peale:
For me the choice between Cruz and Trump is a choice between being burned at the stake or dipped in boiling oil
Archon
@goblue72:
The interesting part is how the romantic and knightly aspect of military pilots and flying is deeply ingrained in Western culture. Even the Nazis, the most cruel regime that has ever existed treated British and American pilots who had just indiscriminately firebombed entire German cities with dignity.
I suspect non-Westerners, especially of former colonial regions look at air power in a completely different way.
John Revolta
@schrodinger’s cat: Well pretty much all of it, except for the parts resulting from the British pulling out of Palestine after WWII.
sharl
@Origuy: I was once curious about why it was Seljuk Turks that defeated the Byzantines at the 1071 Battle of Manzikert, but it was Ottoman Turks who ultimately came to rule what is now Turkey.
Well that turned out to not be a matter of differing Turkic tribes, but rather a name change (well, at least kinda-sorta…). But while tracking that stuff down, I found this Wikipedia page on the history of Turkic migrations.
If/when I retire, maybe I’ll have time to return to those maps and discussions, and make sense of it all. I might succeed at that…maybe. But the bottom line is, there are descendants of Turkish tribes all over Asia and Europe. Their ancestors really got around.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: Oh, crap. Thank you for the quick answer.
schrodinger's cat
@John Revolta:Can’t you trace the Palestinian problem back to Sykes-Picot too? Palestine was a part of the British mandate.
Amir Khalid
@catclub:
Yielding territory to help establish a nation of Kurdistan is an over-my-dead-body proposition for the Arab nations concerned.
Paul in KY
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Good one. Another would be ‘Von’ Donald. Sorta making fun of him being like Ribbentrop, who added a ‘von’ to his name.
Matt McIrvin
@sharl: A while back I learned just why it is that these birds are called “turkeys”. It’s because they were mistakenly conflated with guinea fowl, who were called “turkeys” because they were mistakenly believed to be from Turkey (Turkish merchants sold them).
A mistake on top of a mistake. I’m sure this is a metaphor for something.
Cheap Jim, formerly Cheap Jim
@scav: The hard part of milking a sow is finding a low enough stool to sit on while doing it.
schrodinger's cat
@catclub: That’s why this line about they hate us for our freedoms is too simplistic. They as in AQ and ISIL are murderous thugs but they have a political agenda and grievances.
joes527
@Elizabelle: Trump is chaotic evil, which means that he is a nasty piece of work, but occasionally turns on the bad guys just because: fuck everyone who isn’t Trump. Most of the rest of the field are neutral evil which means that they can be counted on to always do the worst thing possible.
catclub
@Anoniminous: We got over Reagan and George W Bush being president. We will get over it if Trump or Cruz is elected.
Paul in KY
@Poopyman: Ha! Take that Amir ;-)
joes527
@catclub:
citation needed.
Paul in KY
@Origuy: Thank you for your research. Also. Too.
goblue72
@Archon: My wife’s mother thinks of American pilots as those people way up in the sky who bombed her school in Vietnam such that her education stopped at the 6th grade. Because there might have been Commies hiding in the broom closet.
Her grandmother thinks of American pilots as those people who bombed her village and left her with shrapnel permanently embedded in her hip, forcing her village to hide in caves periodically whenever the Yanks flew over. Again, because Commies.
schrodinger's cat
@Amir Khalid: The problem it seems to me, is with the Arab countries in the Middle East, even our so called allies. Not a problem with Islam or clash of civilizations or whatever the right wingers over here come up with.
ETA: The former colonial powers of France and Britain, and United States which has followed in their footsteps and the current despotic regimes in the Arab world are all to blame for the status quo. There is a lot of blame to go around. Fixating on the latest murderous ideologues misses that big picture.
catclub
@Amir Khalid: It seems much more so for Turkey than Iraq, at this point,
because for the Iraqis it might actually mean their dead bodies.
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: A shitload.
Amir Khalid
@Paul in KY:
Hey! How was I to know there was another people going by the name of Turkmen? Grumble pout.
Paul in KY
@Anoniminous: I’m going to go with being burned at the stake. If lucky, you might die of smoke inhalation before the flames got you.
Edit: In Middle Ages, if they had pity on you, they would use a lot of green wood for that reason.
Matt McIrvin
@catclub: Beware of survivorship bias.
catclub
@joes527: A whole lot of people who claimed they would move to Canada if Reagan got elected, didn’t. Most lived.
Also, Barack Obama was elected.
catclub
@Matt McIrvin: Good point. The US is still standing. No elections have been cancelled.
Mandalay
@MomSense:
Which is entirely true, so that criticism is fair. President Obama’s never should have issued that red line threat to Assad in the first place. With hindsight it was clearly a blunder, but plenty of people also said so at the time.
That said, back stabbing Panetta can go fuck himself.
Matt McIrvin
@schrodinger’s cat: They always want the President to declare “war on radical Islam”, which is an even broader and dumber idea than declaring “war on terror”. How do you fight a declared war on a religious movement, or a religious tendency? Even if they only mean “you know, Muslim bad guys“, declaring war on every bad guy everywhere is just a way to cover the world in blood.
Poopyman
@Amir Khalid: They’re not. They seem to be the same peoples.
Meanwhile, in truly horrifying Geneva-Convention-defying acts by non-state actors:
Peale
@schrodinger’s cat: Fixating on the 1920s also misses the boat as it exempts people living a century later from the the headaches they are causing. The problem that the US is causing is related to some kind of belief it had that it’s post war life depends on it be the guarantor of the oil supply everywhere.
schrodinger's cat
@Peale: I am not absolving US tactics or strategy at all. See my reply to Amir Khalid.
In many ways, after WW II the United States inherited the mantle of being the western global power from Britain and France.
To understand a problem as complex as the current situation in the Middle East it is not a bad idea to look at the origin of the problem.
Matt McIrvin
@schrodinger’s cat: The thing that always gets me is, even granting that ISIS has to be gotten rid of, what then? ISIS emerged to fill the power vacuum created by the efforts to kill the previous bunch of bad guys (and some of them even are the same people). What’s worse than ISIS? Do we have to go and find out? I don’t get the sense that any kind of long-term plan exists, any more than there was one when Bush invaded Iraq. At least it’s an international effort so the blame can be spread around, if the partners don’t all manage to kill each other first.
Frankensteinbeck
@Paul in KY:
The Turks don’t give a rat’s ass what is upsetting to Darth Putin. Putin’s Russia is one tenth the population of the Soviet Union, and its military is a dilapidated, out-of-date wreck that Putin has already overextended.
Matt McIrvin
@Frankensteinbeck: Got nukes though. Lots of nukes. When somebody is weak except for nukes, that’s a dangerous situation for everyone to be in.
NotMax
@catclub
Setting aside the Kurds (not a religion) for just a moment, short reasons (far from a comprehensive list) why not a wise concept in practice.
1) Who gets what? Natural resources and access to arable lands, water, harborage, defensible borders, infrastructure and shrines are not spread evenly across Iraq.
2) Presumes on the face that “Sunni” and “Shia” are each homogeneous groups, not the reality that there are factions within sects within tribes within affiliations. Also seemingly presumes that political authority is indistinguishable from religious authority.
3) Long, even ancient, residence and property ownership by non-Muslim populations (Yazidi, Christian (mix of mostly Chaldean, Assyrian and Syriac churches), and Mandaeans, for example).
4) History in Iraq of far from insignificant numbers of Sunni-Shia marriages and extended families of same.
Sherparick
@Marnie: A very early morning drinking game.
Between the Republicans and the VSPs in the media, Obama is beaten up for preventing any bad thing that happens anywhere in the world and it is implied all sorts of bad things will happen here. It has had an affect. http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/24/poll-watch-low-marks-for-president-obama-on-terrorism/?ribbon-ad-idx=5&rref=politics&module=Ribbon&version=origin®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Politics&pgtype=article
The Republicans and the Right-Wing Noise machine is on constant offensive against the Administration and they will never regain the confidence of those poor souls in Fox Mordor. But on the shows and editorial pages, the left-wing pundits will never give a full throated defense of the Obama Administration because of the drone war, the NSA surveillance, and the interventions which it does not approve. This is one advantage of a Republican Administration, they will get the loyal support of their pundits no matter what as long as they are bombing and torturing “those people.”
Paul in KY
@Frankensteinbeck: I meant the ‘Turkmen’ militia in Syria, not the nation state of Turkey.
Also, Russia has way more than 10 % of the old USSR population.
Betty Cracker
@Archon: I’m pretty sure it’s considered a war crime. Just saying.
@Anoniminous: I’m such a squishy lib I even think waterboarding terrorists is wrong.
Sherparick
A good slide that shows Syria to be a 9-dimensional 6-sided chess game with real humans from business insider. http://www.businessinsider.com/cheat-sheet-key-players-in-the-syria-conflict-2015-11
Mandalay
@Cacti:
Yep. And the best part is that Putin can’t retaliate against Turkey, which is now being publicly backed by NATO over the shooting:
I wonder what the Villagers who were smugly insisting Putin was a wily old fox who outsmarted President Obama by intervening in Syria are saying right now.
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
Waterboarding anyone is despicable, sadistic and wrong.
Sherparick
@joes527: I think the gangrene from those two sucking chest wounds continues.
catclub
@Mandalay:
Some different stupid thing, and trying to distract from this observation.
Gin & Tonic
@Paul in KY: The population of the USSR at the time of its demise was about 290M. The population of Russia at that time was about 148M. The population of Russia has declined somewhat in the intervening time, pretty steadily for nearly 20 years, but has started to tick upward a little bit in the last 5 or so.
sharl
@NotMax: Like anyone else trying to be a decent person, I was not a fan of the late Christopher Hitchens. But – misogynistic, invasion-cheerleading (Iraq) moral reprobate that he was – he did have his moments: Believe Me, It’s Torture (and companion YouTube, 5m48s)
Matt McIrvin
@Mandalay: There are some analysts who have been fretting for a while that Putin thinks NATO is weak around the edges, and that at some point he’s just going to deliberately attack a weak NATO member to force the powerful core countries to choose between Armageddon and effectively dissolving the alliance. Either everyone dies in a nuclear fireball, or Putin becomes the mighty NATO-killer.
But Turkey probably isn’t the right country to attack: too strong.
edit: also it assumes Putin is way more foolhardy than I suspect he actually is.
Elie
Terrible choices btw Trump and Cruz but since Cruz is the weakest candidate I pick him to take what is left of the R brand down the toilet.
On the downed fighter I hope Putin has a bloody nose. Told him to stay out of Sunni Shia politics but no. Not much he can do about it either except get deeper into shit.
Turgidson
@catclub:
Yeah, I mean, we’re now at a point where the conventional wisdom is that Obama basically hasn’t lifted a finger against ISIS to this point and has no strategy. This despite the 6,000+ air strikes the US has carried out, the ongoing international arm-twisting, the fact that ISIS has lost 25% of its territory. None of that matters because the narrative is that Obama’s doing nothing, NOTHING I tell you.
It is in the context of this narrative that Russia’s recent, clumsy, entry into the conflict (on a smaller scale, albeit with worse collateral damage, than ongoing US operations) was trumped up as a bold, decisive move to act (and WIN) where Obama can’t or won’t. And where France’s retaliatory bombing of Raqqa was lauded similarly, without mention of how few strikes France has carried out to date, and how the US carries out that many strikes pretty much every day.
There’s plenty to criticize in Obama’s foreign policy, from whatever direction you prefer, but the notion that he’s doing basically nothing against ISIS is somehow the one that’s taken hold, even as (almost) none of his critics and wannabe successors can actually explain how they’d do things differently other than yell louder and shake their fists, or something.
We’re well and truly f’ed. I lately find myself amazed that Obama ever won the presidency in the first place, considering how ill-suited he is to the head-trauma-stupidity of the nation’s politics/media these days.
Bobby Thomson
@Amir Khalid: both are called Turkmen, but Central Asian Turkmen are different from near east Turkmen.
catclub
Martin Longman at WaMonthly, on the combined odds for Trump, Cruz and carson:
Betty Cracker
@Elie: I wish I felt more confident that the same isn’t true of the US (should stay out of the Sunni-Shia conflict and is in danger of getting sucked in deeper).
schrodinger's cat
Did the site just hork up a hairball? I got an error message.
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker: Playing the global policeman has its downsides.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
It did for me too.
sharl
@Amir Khalid: Comment #54 from the next post
Bobby Thomson
@joes527: damn right.
Betty Cracker
@schrodinger’s cat: Does it have any upside these days? The graft opportunities used to be fabulous back when we were basically functioning as international gangsters, but now it looks like all the profit is privatized and all the risk is socialized…
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker: You have to ask the neo-cons since they are the biggest advocates of the global policeman role.
I will now put my self in some neo-con shoes and try to answer this question.
Even if the profit opportunities are on the wane. Being the global policeman brings you bragging rights, if not respect. Someone has to be the boss, so why not us? Also too, the most powerful military in the world needs something to do.
MomSense
@Mandalay:
I don’t think it was a blunder. The threat of force was sufficiently credible that we got Assad to give up his chemical weapons with Russia taking responsibility for making sure it happened.
We played the parties brilliantly.
Elie
@Mandalay:
I am so late to the thread but you are so right! Lets see ol Putinasty slime his way through this. He can’t do or say much of anything …
He was told to stay out of sunni/shia games, but he just couldn’t resist the opportunity to show the west up. Now, he has one his planes shot down and what — hes gonna whine about how it wasn’t really in Turkey or some such? That is not what “powertful men TM” do. But wait – taking revenge is not going to make his situation vis a vis his exposure on ISIS related sunni issues better — in fact would make it worse — not just because of Daesh/ISIS is sunni but his own restive young potential sunni rebels in the “stans” are watching his ass. Like they say, “sin in haste, repent a leisure”. He was looking pretty smart up until he wasn’t…