This is pretty much all you need to know about the Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado City, which is home base for Focus on the Family and the American Taliban.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.
Only Democrats have agency, apparently.
The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.
A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.
A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals
We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.
This fight is for everything.
Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.
Infrastructure week. at last.
Impressively dumb. Congratulations.
Optimism opens the door to great things.
This really is a full service blog.
Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.
Why did Dr. Oz lose? well, according to the exit polls, it’s because Fetterman won.
The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.
Peak wingnut was a lie.
Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.
Black Jesus loves a paper trail.
I was promised a recession.
Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.
You can’t love your country only when you win.
They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.
John Fetterman: Too Manly for Pennsylvania. Paid for by the Oz for Senator campaign.
If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!
You are here: Home / Homegrown Hate
Nate Dawg
Muslims are terrorists. White guys are lone gunman, usually disturbed. We can stop the former by saying the magic words “radical Islamic” and by putting our boots on the ground somewhere, but not necessarily where the terrorists are or came from.
Nothing can be done about the white gunman, so it’s best to stoke up hatred and vitriol toward marginalized groups so they attack undesirables instead of other good Christian white folk.
Keith G
I’ll repeat what I typed earlier just as John was publishing this.
I am not sure why anyone who values their sanity, let alone their blood pressure, follows minute to minute breaking news like this. About the time of Sandy Hook, I decided to start following this type of news as it it were 1965 and Walter Cronkite was at the helm. Just check in once in the morning, noon, dinner and bedtime. Avoid cable and online sources in between and ignore the three news apps dinging on my phone.
There is so much mis-information and speculation combined with the chance for compounded negativity and more than enough hysterics and anger.
Going back to my chores and my audio book. I figure much of it will be sorted out by tomorrow morning.
redshirt
Heh. Cole quotes his own tweet as evidence.
21st century journamalism!
Davebo
Let’s not forget that Colorado Springs is also the home of the US Air Force Academy which has long been considered a federally sponsored evangelical church.
Botsplainer
@Davebo:
When I went there in the early 80s, fundies were pushing hard to get to cadets.
Anya
GOP is playing a very dangerous game to hold on to power by stoking fear & demagogy. Their whole political agenda is built on manipulating the worst elements of our society. They did such a good job that healthcare for women sets of a huge segment of their base. I am really scared that we haven’t seen the worst of where this strategy will lead us. The worst part is that the media is an accomplice.
David Koch
You never hear any Christian, not a single one, denounce Radical Christian terrorism. They won’t even call them Radical Christians.
There is no choice: we have to shut down the worst churches – they are nothing more than radicalization centers.
Additionally, we need to start a national database on Christians, including mandatory registration.
Also, We need a pause on accepting Christian immigrants and refugees.
We just can’t do it right now. It’s not safe.
Finally, Congress needs to hold emergency hearings into Christian radicalization.
This is nothing less than a war of civilizations. These “Christians” hate us for our freedoms.
redshirt
@David Koch:
And also too, we need to know how many Christians are already in this country. I mean, there might be a hundred Mennonites ready to turn into thermite as we speak.
The risk is too great to let Christians walk around anonymously.
Germy
not a peep from Carly
David Koch
I would include something from the other candidates, but 2 1/2 hours later and O’Malley and Sanders still haven’t issued any comment.
D58826
After watching the video from Chicago the opther night and then hearing that this shooter was taken alive I hads tghe same thought as Cole. Obviously it to early to really know his race or motivess
John Cole
@redshirt: Hey- did you ever back off your bullshit assertion that the downtime last week was due to the site upgrade? Or are you just in straight up troll mode?
Botsplainer
It’s funny – I’m always tasked with the Thanksgiving prayer, and always hate it – but my wingnut mom insists.
This year, I took a different path – my invocation was completely secular, and I expressed my appreciation for family, for friends, for the bounties of the land and the sea, for meat and leaf and grain, for those who weren’t with us but away, for those who are with us no more, for joy and pleasure and for hope for the future.
Youngest daughter said “your mom told me she didn’t like your prayer – you never mentioned God or Jesus at all”.
Fuck the petulant narcissistic passive aggressive sky monster – It needs or wants affirmation, It best be prepared to show Itself to me to demand it so I can tell It to fuck off.
cmorenc
@Nate Dawg:
The latter is the way Fox News is playing this – “loner psychopath”, with the only reference to Muslims being brief-mention-in-passing that authorities will be checking whether he has any links to ISIS, but no mention while I was listening of the alternative likelihood they’re checking whether he has any links to radical ant-abortion groups. Occasionally while riding in the car on errands, I’ll listen briefly to Fox to see what focus and spin Faux News is putting on contemporary events.
pacem appellant
If were a color other than white or a gender other than male, we’d be reading his obituary by now.
Anya
@efgoldman: I am aware but things are just getting worst now. GOP is a fringe party that advances fringe ideas.
PaulW
The Far Right are already trying to excuse this away as a “lone wolf nut” and that this is a “mental health issue.”
Oh, so they’re admitting that being “pro-fetus” is truly a form of batsh-t crazy?
There’s been a few tweets too where the gunman’s being hailed as a hero for “saving” all those unborn fetuses: I saw one blaming the cops on patrol as deserving getting shot because THEY weren’t stopping the massacre of fetuses. /headdesk
Anya
There are sick people tweeting about how the terrorist stopped “murder of babies.” I am shocked. But I probably shouldn’t
Bill E Pilgrim
I want to see reporters grill those two CNN anchors about why they don’t take responsibility for Christian terrorists “within their ranks”.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/11/16/cnn-anchor-blames-french-muslims-for-failure-to-prevent-attacks/
Baud
@Anya:
Which of the GOP candidates did that?
PaulW
Just saw a photo of the aftermath.
Of course the gunman looks like just another angry white guy.
Baud
@PaulW:
How else would he look?
scav
@Botsplainer: Well, maybe that is exactly that test for proven christianity that they’ve been searching for recently: if the questioned doesn’t whine enough about receiving good wishes or nice thoughts in exactly the specific manner and exact words they want, they’re undoubtedly christian.
(I somehow envision them gathered around the Biblically correct Christmas tree, whining furiously that all their most desired gifts arrived in the wrong wrong wrapping paper).
Anya
Some “expert” on CNN explained why this can be called an act of terrorism.
Patrick
@Anya:
He stopped the murder by a murdering? How does that even make sense? Can you call yourself a Christian by claiming “thou shalt not kill” is not part of Christianity? Isn’t that kind of a key part of what Jesus tried to preach?
Anya
@Baud: My money is on Huckabee and Ted Cruz’s dad. But I won’t rule out Ben Carson or Trump.
farthestnorth
watching 9 news Denver. 2 dead including a cop and someone in the clinic
Anya
@Patrick: It doesn’t make any sense at all. They need to realize they have more in common with ISIS than they have with the rest of us.
Patrick
@Anya:
As I understand it, the poor women going to PP are being harassed by these “Christians” on their way into the clinic. They probably have struggled with this decision for awhile. And then dealing with the harassers. And now this…I wish Christians at least once would try to do what Jesus preached.
SiubhanDuinne
@Patrick:
Commie.
scav
They worked it out long ago that the whole “Thou shalt not Kill” thing didn’t apply to everyone. See also justifaction for crucades, plus a lot of behavior since then. Killing certain sorts of people really is already forgiven, of not meritorious in itself! NB, most of us are included in those sort of people anymore.
Mike J
@Patrick:
The decision to get a pap smear? Abortion is a very, very tiny percentage of what Planned Parenthood does.
Trentrunner
@Mike J: If abortions were 100% of what PP did, I would hope we would support it just as vigorously and unflinchingly.
You can put Bill Clinton’s “safe, legal, and rare” aspirational declaration about abortions in the category of centrist horseshit he needs to apologize for. Someone oughta ask Hillary about it, in fact.
slag
@scav: Life was so much simpler when we could just burn naughty ladies at the stake or drown them in the river. Nowadays, you can’t punish the wicked without making a mess. I blame Obama.
lamh36
amk
5 cops were injured and yet the guy is taken alive.
Guess none of these officers “feared for their lives”.
redshirt
@John Cole: You tell me. Clearly site critiques are the only things on BJ you actually read.
Adam L Silverman
@Patrick: The justification is from the Cain and Able story in Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed”. The Reverend Paul Hill, who shot up an abortion clinic in Pensacola used this as his justification. He claimed that he was protesting there and looked up at the sign that he made, which quoted Genesis 9:6, and realized that the message was meant for him and he knew what he had to do.
Similar justifications can be found in the Army of God manual.
Full disclosure: my doctoral dissertation was on anti-abortion terrorism. I wrote cases on Eric Robert Rudolph, Shelly Shannon, Paul Hill, and the guy that shot and killed Dr. Slepian. These were written to flesh out the quantitative analysis, an empirical and testable theory of terrorism, which utilized the Gutmacher Institute’s data chronology of attacks at abortion clinics. This wasn’t my first choice, but at the time in the late 90s, there was no decent, let alone accessible, chronology or database of terrorism incidents that would allow for empirical testing.
lamh36
amk
rino:
I was tired of being a champion of a party that turned a blind eye to racial discrimination. Tired of being a champion of any cause that denies equal rights to every American. Tired of being a champion of a party that doesn’t care about the issues important to young people.
Mike J
@Trentrunner: I would hope that biorth control would be so widely available that the only abortions that were wanted were for medical reasons., and I would hope that women got enough care during pregnancy that those cases would be rare. Safe, legal, and rare sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Step one to that is getting rid of abstinence only sex ed.
Adam L Silverman
@amk: He was taken alive because they weren’t sure if he had explosives or how they would/could be set off. Its the reason the BATFE was on the scene, and quickly, as one of the responders. They wouldn’t have been there otherwise. If the SWAT sniper didn’t have a shot and if they couldn’t be sure he wasn’t wired to a deadman’s switch, your form a perimeter, evac everyone possible, try to talk the attacker out, and, if necessary, wait.
The above does not excuse the use of force, including deadly or potentially deadly force, as a tool of compliance by law enforcement.
Germy
@amk: His eyes finally opened.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Patrick:
To be frank about it, the facilities where actual abortions are performed are usually much more heavily guarded than this place appears to have been, precisely because they worry about armed nutters showing up.
So this guy most likely prevented women from getting birth control and cancer screenings, not abortions.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
@Botsplainer:
You mean the one William Blake called Nobodaddy.
Germy
There are 2 towns I travel through with PPs, and when the weather is nice, the protesters stand around with signs. I’m looking forward to the next time I see them, so I can give them a big “Fuck You”
scav
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Can’t let the uppity wimminz develop the delusion that their health care is under their control.
John Cole
@redshirt: I responded to your tweet when you made it. You’re just trolling.
Villago Delenda Est
@Anya: The entire pro-forced-birth movement is terroristic in nature. We need a tracking database. Start with anyone who has ever worked for, or contributed to, Focus on the Family, Operation Rescue, or the American Family Association.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Womens were put in their place, in any case.
redshirt
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Mission Accomplished!
Because it’s not just the women who missed their appointments today, but of course the women who have appointments tomorrow and in the days to come. In their heads now is the idea they might die violently if they go get a health checkup. And some won’t go because they’re scared.
How fucked up is that? It’s terrorism 101 and it’s allowed here in the US of A.
Villago Delenda Est
@amk: If only the shooter had been black with a water pistol.
amk
@Adam L Silverman:
Guess that ‘benefit of doubt’ works only in one way.
Cocky McSwagsalot @MoreAndAgain
“Officer, why did you kill that Black person?”
“I thought they had a weapon.”
“Why didn’t you kill that white person?”
“They had a weapon.”
5:38 AM – 28 Nov 2015
Adam L Silverman
@Keith G: The networks, but especially the cable news networks, have been ate up on this for years. Back when I was a post-doc at UF I dated a news producer from Jacksonville – she worked for one of the local stations. Several years before when the second space shuttle exploded she wound up being on the air on CNN for hours as breaking news. At that time she was still in front of the camera in Jax, not the news producer for her station, and she was sent down to Cape Kennedy to cover the shuttle landing because there was an Israeli astronaut on board and Jax has a large Jewish community. When the shuttle blew up, she was basically that only reporter on the ground with a camera crew and CNN, as well as other networks, picked up her station’s feed of her on the ground because they wouldn’t have had live coverage otherwise. So for hours she was the reporting face on the ground, even though there was no new information. She told me the funniest thing was she started getting mail at the station from people that saw her in different places outside of Jacksonville telling her how nice her hair looked…
amk
Karen Hunter @karenhunter
So police didn’t feel their lives were in jeopardy enough to kill this #PlannedParenthood terrorist who was actually shooting at them? Hmm.
5:53 AM – 28 Nov 2015
dr. luba
@Trentrunner: And what is wrong with “safe, legal, and rare”?
Isn’t it our goal to be able to provide safe and effective contraception to all women who need it, and use abortion as a back up to that? Even though abortion is safer than pregnancy, not being pregnant at all is safer than either.
If the god-botherers weren’t going all out to get rid of sex education and contraception, abortion would be rare. Unplanned pregnancy should be rare. Which shows they are primarily anti-sex rather than anti-abortion, with pregnancy being punishment for not following their sexual restrictions.
Germy
@amk: “Officer, why did you kill that Black person?”
“I thought they had a weapon.”
“Why didn’t you kill that white person?”
“They had a weapon.”
The amazing thing is he shot a cop and was STILL allowed to live.
Adam L Silverman
@amk: Yes and no. I’m not arguing your or John’s basic premise. All too often it is correct. In this case, however, from what I’ve seen of the reporting so far I don’t think the premise is applicable. There’s a specific set of protocols for responding to hostage situations, as well as those where there might be explosives. We won’t know a lot more for several days as its going to take them a while to process the scene, but from what’s been reported so far they followed procedure.
The outcome is never supposed to be summary judgement and execution. That it all too often is, and for people of color, is a disgrace.
Honus
I’d really like to know if the PP terrorist and the Mississippi waitress murderer had concealed carry permits, making them “good guys with guns” No doubt we’ll find out that they acquired their weapons legally.
PurpleGirl
The news media could, instead of asking Huckabee or Cruz or Rubio or Franklin Graham and anyone of the many right-wing religionists for their comments, call the Inter-Church Center (NYC, Riverside Drive, just down the street from Riverside Church) or the National Council of Churches. I first wanted to get their names correct before checking their websites for comments on today’s activity in Colorado Springs.
But then these organizations are examples of mainstream Christianity who work to unify the various different flavors of belief.
slag
@dr. luba: How about “safe, legal, and none of your fucking business”? The whole point is that this decision is one for women to make, and it’s the people’s job to keep it safe. Full stop.
amk
@Germy:
The amazing thing is he shot
a copfive cops and was STILL allowed to live./fixt
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@dr. luba:
I know it annoys some people, but I like the root canal comparison that blogger Lindsay Beyerstein came up with years ago. Nobody wants to get a root canal, and you should practice good dental hygiene to try and avoid one, but they should be available in case something goes wrong and you end up needing one.
Pogonip
@Keith G: Hey, I do that too! This is my evening check-in so now I know that this is the incident our local station mistook for Dog Day Afternoon at a nearby bank.
Also, sadly, at least one of the wounded police officers has died.
amk
@Adam L Silverman:
Replace all too often with all the time and you are good.
Also. Too. Are you saying that these ‘protocols’ summarily prevent such hostage takers (and cop killers) from being killed?
slag
@Trentrunner:
Agreed. Except Hillary used to use it all the time herself. Abortion needs to stop being one of those things our party half apologizes for. It is a personal medical decision, and as such, it deserves the same protections as any other personal medical decisions get in a first world nation. No qualifiers needed.
amk
White Americans are the biggest terror threat in U.S., study finds.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@slag:
Strictly from a personal and public health perspective, it’s better to prevent an unwanted pregnancy than to abort one. I really don’t see it as a bad thing to make birth control available and accessible to as many women as possible in order to reduce the number of abortions.
Here’s a possibly weird comparison — say you have someone who’s a Type II diabetic. Is it better to give them as much information and support as possible to encourage them to eat and exercise in a way that will help them keep their blood sugar under control, or should we leave them alone in the name of personal freedom and just accept that some of them will develop diabetes-related complications that could have been prevented with better education and access?
yodecat
@Anya: Problem is, how can you explain anything to an angry moron with a weapon?
Adam L Silverman
@amk: It happens all too often, but it doesn’t happen every time the police make a stop. That it is happening with the frequency that it is happening is problem enough.
The protocols contributed to this outcome. They do not make it a certainty, but they reduce the likelihood. When I see the write ups on unnecessary law enforcement shootings, and most of those as we’ve seen are of people of color, or the use of pain/force/control techniques to simply allow the officer to get over on the person they’re dealing with, I’m looking for evidence of either bad training or ignoring training. By bad training I mean being taught to do something, either at the academy or by one’s seniors/training officers as a rookie, that one shouldn’t do. By ignoring protocol I mean doing something that can not be justified/covered under existing training protocols.
And then I’m looking for information on the officer’s attitudes, behaviors, and record of service.
Grung_e_Gene
@Nate Dawg: White males can not be terrorists, if a white male does do an apparent criminal or terrorist act it is because he has succumbed to the evil influences 9f Hollywood Jews or black rap culture.
slag
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
It is not a bad thing to make birth control available and accessible, but that shouldn’t be linked to abortions for a variety of reasons—one of the major ones being that lack of birth control is far from the only reason for a woman to have an abortion.
Are we really going to pretend that “rare” isn’t playing directly into a stigma on abortion? Really?
PurpleGirl
People, you realize a woman could do everything right, get the most and best healthcare during her pregnancy and yet something can go wrong with the developing fetus that causes the fetus to die or otherwise be damaged in a way that is incompatible with life. The woman could still need an abortion to preserve her own health and ability to have other pregnancies. Nothing, but nothing, is guaranteed. That’s why an abortion must remain a decision between a woman, her family and her doctor. Period, no restrictions or qualifications are needed.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt: It goes beyond that. This type of thing is intended to make the landlords think twice about either leasing space to PP or abortion clinics or renew them. Its also intended to make the other folks renting space in that strip mall wonder whether they should relocate or lean on the landlord to force PP out. And its intended to provide a baseline for people to go to the next county zoning board meeting and claim that PP or abortion clinics need to be zoned out because having them within the county is a magnet for violence. While today’s actual shooter likely never thought his actions this far through, those that work to set the conditions for his type of action have. They’re also looking for plausible deniability and protection under the 1st Amendment.
amk
@Adam L Silverman:
No, we are not talking about a police stop here, are we? If a non-white starts waving his gun at cops, let alone shoots them, he will be a dead man 100% of the time in no time.
“I’m looking for evidence of either bad training or ignoring training”
May be, you should also look into innate prejudice of the cops who do such cold blooded murders ‘cuz they ‘feared for their lives’, ‘the suspect ran’ and some such bs reason.
PurpleGirl
@Adam L Silverman: Good point, Adam. Very good point.
Glidwrith
@Adam L Silverman: “And then I am looking for information on the officer’s attitudes, behaviors, and record of service.”
We repeatedly see after the fact that Officer Friendly had multiple complaints against him after he kills and/or rapes someone – the Chicago case, most recently. Are these complaints not a matter of public record? We never seem to know these little sociopaths are around until after the damage is done and suddenly their record is public knowledge. Why don’t we know about them sooner? Does the department keep it deep-sized until they can’t hide it anymore (e.g. FOIA)?
ETA: deep-sixed, not deep-sized.
mainmata
@Davebo: Also the home of Colorado College, a highly selective, therefore by definition, liberal, liberal arts college. Given that Colorado Springs also has this very conservative enormous church (forget name) the poor Colorado College students must feel besieged by a bunch of Neanderthals (with apologies to the latter).
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne (tablet): The problem is the forced birth people have just come out and said that there is only one proper way to prevent pregnancy: don’t have sex.
It’s about fucking. And controlling women. Babies have nothing to fucking do with it.
sharl
@PurpleGirl: Amen. Nasty, vicious shit like what happened today reminds me that such patients were a big part of the practice of the late Dr. George Tiller, who was murdered at his church by one of these “pro-life” assholes. His manner of treating his patients should be an integral part of textbooks for OBGYNs in training (and may it is; I hope so). And the testimonials of those former patients are filled with praise, and heartbreak as well, in light of so many of them grieving the loss of a badly wanted baby, as well as the loss of Tiller himself.
Note that at least one link in the NYT post is broken, although there is presumably controlled access to those stories through its parent home page, www{dot}aheartbreakingchoice{dot}com (I’m outta links). They have a private discussion group/listserve. Somehow I can guess why they had to go private with that, but since dwelling on that just pisses me off even more, just gonna hit “Post Comment” now and move on.
Heliopause
@slag:
The more incidents like this I see the more I think that abortion should not only be legal but actively encouraged. Where some see a fetus as a potential little child of God, I see another hyperviolent ape about to be born, one that will torture for fun, murder for an abstraction, or maybe even vote for Donald Trump. Maybe I’m just a glass half empty guy.
Adam L Silverman
@amk: What part of: “And then I’m looking for information on the officer’s attitudes, behaviors, and record of service.” did you decide not to read.
I’m not, I repeat NOT, arguing with you that law enforcement is shooting and killing, i.e. summary judgement and execution, of people of color. Nor am I trying to downplay it or claim it isn’t a problem.
None of that is, however, germane to a hostage situation where it is suspected that the perpetrator may have explosives. The “may have explosives” is the operative reason for today’s response.
Adam L Silverman
@Glidwrith: Fourteen states have law enforcement officer bills of rights. Additionally, there are usually civil service protections in place to provide privacy, as a protection of the employee, in personnel matters.
The problem is a combination of providing special rights for law enforcement, combined with no national, uniform standard for law enforcement (even if training, hiring, and the majority of law enforcement would be at the local and state level – I’m not calling for a national carabinieri), the well publicized desire of law enforcement hiring being designed to weed out the best and brightest, and far too much training on tactical response and far and away too little on deescalation and conflict resolution. And all of this is before we get to the historic and institutional legacy problems.
mainmata
@Adam L Silverman: Good, explanatory post. Thanks.
slag
@Heliopause: I will admit that there have been times when I’d heard of a pregnancy (particularly among teens) and strongly hoped for an abortion that never happened. But my primary issue is with anything that treats a woman’s body as public property. The fetus’ potential value to society is not the primary consideration.
dr. luba
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Exactly. I am not trying to demonize women who get abortions; I’m and OB/GYN, and have performed them.
But nobody “wants” an abortion. Some want a healthy pregnancy and don’t have one. Many would prefer not to have gotten pregnant in the first place. But if they do need one, for whatever reason, they should be safe and easily available.
Glidwrith
@Adam L Silverman: For some reason when I hit the reply button to you I ended up on a NYT article describing LEO Bill of Rights, so that answers one question (bastards, all the time in the world to cover up their crimes).
I can understand the civil service protections, though apparently once some sort of line is crossed they no longer apply and the officer’s record becomes public. However, a teacher, postal worker or fireman somehow never gets off if someone complains about their behavior and NEVER for literally beating someone up, so I would say, no they are not deserving of protections which involve assaults or any other action which would normally result in an arrest.
Last, I ran across one report of one police department screening out intelligent people. Are you saying this practice is wide-spread?
Crap, time to go scritch my kitties and hug my kids. I need a refill on my hope for humanity.
Adam L Silverman
@Glidwrith: Sorry bought that. For some reason when I used the link button to put the link to the article in, it moved the reply button. Wonders and mysteries!
My understanding is that the screening process is widespread. I’m not sure anyone’s done an empirical study, but its been explained to me that its done because there is a belief that candidates with too much aptitude would get bored with the work and/or become easily disgruntled.
blueskies
At this point I think it’s appropriate for the federal government to assume that all members of all “pro-life” (anti-abortion, forced-birth, etc) organizations are potential terrorists. Every single one of them should be brought in for questioning until it is clearly determined that they are not a threat to society. All of their homes should be searched. If guns are found, they should be confiscated. If guns are found but owners lack registrations, they go to jail.
How many times should such terroristic acts occur before we take these people seriously? Many of them will tell you to your face that ANY act in furtherance of their cause is justified and blessed by their friend in the clouds. Take them seriously. They are terrorists.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@slag:
Wow, I can’t have an honest disagreement with you over that? The only explanation is that I agree with you but am pretending to disagree for secret anti-choice reasons?
I quite honestly do not think that “rare” plays into a stigma on abortion. The people who can be persuaded that it should be rare thanks to better access to health care and birth control are NOT the same people who think it should be banned. The people who think it should be banned will never agree that it should be “rare” since they think it shouldn’t happen at all.
I think we can make some headway with people who are uncomfortable with the current abortion rate by pointing out that the best way to reduce it is to improve access to health care and birth control. I haven’t looked it up, but I would bet that the Guttmacher Institute is already finding a reduced abortion rate thanks to Obamacare. So, no, I do not think that “safe, legal and rare” further stigmatizes abortion.
@PurpleGirl:
I don’t think anyone here disagrees that women should be able to have abortions when they feel they need them. The only disagreement seems to be that I think improving sex education and birth control access is worth doing on a large scale in part because it would help make abortion more rare, and some people think that stating it that way is somehow anti-abortion.
I honestly don’t understand why saying that I think reducing the abortion rate is good is somehow an anti-abortion stand, but some people seem to think it is. If I say that it would be good to reduce the rate of diabetic amputations through patient education and better access to healthcare, does that mean I hate diabetics?
slag
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Well, then you live in a different world than the one in which I live. In my world, abortion is stigmatized. And when politicians say it should be “rare”, they are directly implying that at least some of that stigma is warranted. That’s the world in which I live.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@slag:
Or they’re pointing out that we have one of the highest abortion rates in the Western world and should be doing more to reduce that rate, perhaps by improving sex education and birth control access.
I think stigmatization is a problem, but you’re not going to solve it by refusing to take public health steps to reduce the current abortion rate out of fear that you’ll be stigmatizing the procedure.
redshirt
@Adam L Silverman:
I propose high tech PP ROAMING HEALTH FORTRESSES, dispensing health care and other social services for free in every neighborhood they found.
slag
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
You are correct. I do not want politicians to take public health steps “TO reduce the current abortion rate”. I want politicians to take public health steps THAT ALSO reduce the current abortion rate. A definite distinction with a definite difference.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@slag:
This is, of course, totally hypothetical, but if doing it the “also” way reduces the rate less than taking direct steps would, then that’s okay because we sidestepped addressing the abortion part directly?
Another question occurred to me, but this is totally philosophical and I don’t expect anyone (myself included) to have an answer, but it’s worth thinking about: in the current political climate, is there any way to take steps to reduce the abortion rate that would not make women who’ve had or who need an abortion feel stigmatized? In a rational country, it should be possible, but we pretty clearly don’t live in a rational country right now, so I don’t know the answer. At this point, birth control itself is being stigmatized.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt: I really am not sure how to respond to that.
mark k
Suspect is Robert L. Dear from North Carolina
slag
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Look, if we’re trying to prevent unplanned pregnancies, then we should focus on birth control. If we’re trying to prevent problematic pregnancies, then we should focus on prenatal care and maternal health. If we’re concerned about sex or race selection in the womb, then we should focus gender and racial equity issues. Safe, medically provided abortion is not the problem. In many situations, abortion is a solution to a problem—a necessary solution. So, if you’re focused on the abortion part directly, you’re focused on a solution when you should be focused on a problem. (Or, I should say, you’re treating a solution as a problem—that’s a problem.)
seaboogie
@David Koch:
Exactly this.
And I would urge all Alt. media to keep pointing this out, and never fail to draw a parallel between Christian Fundies and the Islamofascists – each and every fucking time.
Peter
@slag:
You have found yourself in the weird internet argument twilight zone where nobody you’re talking to has any substantive difference in position from you but you still feel like you’re in an argument. Take a step back.
Just One More Canuck
@Adam L Silverman: back away slowly
tofubo
@David Koch:
if only
Chris
@slag:
Agreed. Except Hillary used to use it all the time herself. Abortion needs to stop being one of those things our party half apologizes for. It is a personal medical decision, and as such, it deserves the same protections as any other personal medical decisions get in a first world nation. No qualifiers needed.
The West Wing had its good points and bad points, but one of my favorite quotes on abortion came from that show;
“[a possible Supreme Court nominee] won’t make it past the vetting.”
“Why not?”
“She had an abortion.”
“When did she have an abortion?”
“After 73, it was legal.”
“Are we discarding anyone else for legal activities? Tonsillectomy? Are we cracking down on surfing this year?”
DCF
@seaboogie:
The term ‘Christianist’ needs to be applied to the individuals who act in these ways…they are every bit as extreme – and dangerous – as Jihadists or Zionists…perhaps more so, given their infiltration of our political (and military) infrastructure….
TriassicSands
@Patrick:
The death penalty stops killing by killing. (But not really.) It’s the Amurkin Way.
Ella in NM
Even though it’s lookin’ like a duck and walkin’ like a duck, I’m gonna hold off opining until I know for sure, it is ACTUALLY a duck.
Because when I unleash on my conservative FB family and friends, the truth will set me free to set fire to their “I’m voting Republican no matter who the candidate is”asses. And it will burn.
beb
@David Koch:
I’d retweet this if only I were on Twitter.
Patricia Kayden
Greatest title ever, John.
Tommy T
It’s not about race.
It’s about who’s watching.
.
Nobody watching – beat up or shoot them.
The entire nation watching – negotiate, capture, Mirandaize them.
Paul in KY
@Adam L Silverman: They never think the black dudes are ‘wired up’.
Paul in KY
@slag: Medically, any invasive procedure should be avoided, if at all possible.
If you have to get one, I want it to be safe & available.
Paul in KY
@Adam L Silverman: I like it!
Paul in KY
@Ella in NM: Give em Hell, Ella!