The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives” (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85)
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Anya
I just donated to Planned Parenthood. I am too angry I actually donated twice.
The media enablers and their experts are already speculating using their favorite terms whenever a white guy shoots multiple people. I’ve already heard “lone-wolf” and of course mental illness.
skerry
I just donated and set up a monthly donation.
I used Planned Parenthood when I was a younger woman. It is time for me to give back.
Viva BrisVegas
What does the US Code of Federal Regulations have to say about those who incite “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives”?
i.e. The Republican Party
sandtu2001
The reaction would be very very different if this guy’s middle name was Mohammed or Hussein.
Mike J
@Viva BrisVegas: Imminent lawless action is the standard. “Stop him now before he gets away!” might be unlawful incitement to violence. “Smith eats babies and somebody ought to stop him” probably isn’t.
Debbie
I was listening to NPR all day at work and what’s pissing me off is that there isn’t more information.
Thoughtful Today
Terrorism.
glory b
Which is why I don’t understand why our FBI Director has said that Dylan Root’s killing of the black church Bible study members wasn’t a terrorist act. Has anyone ever seen an interview where he was asked to explain why not?
Anya
@glory b: Why? We all know only Muslims commit acts of terrorism.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
I donated today as well (I already donate via payroll deductions at work).
@Mike J: Yup, that’s a problem with incitement laws as they exist now. There’s a certain sense to it, and there is the danger of a chilling effect if speech is restricted.
However, we may be approaching a point where we have to examine the laws again. Dehumanizing people is dangerous. Coded language that incites dehumanizing of people is dangerous. Language that elevates religious beliefs above all civil rights, and the right to live in a democratic society that respects differences of opinion, is dangerous. How one can write laws to punish such types of quasi-incitement is difficult and maybe impossible. But I don’t know if we can survive as a relatively peaceful, pluralistic, secular country without finding some way to rein in the crazies who think that their visions of God and God’s Law trump everything else.
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
TaMara (BHF)
If this turns out to be an attack on PP, which is what it looks like – but I’m holding judgement because it could just as well be crazy white guy shoots up ex-wife’s workplace while trying to kill her – how is the right going to twist itself up trying to celebrate hero cops while still revering the brave second amendment warrior who stopped baby killing (or in reality PAP smears and mammograms)? That’s going to be some olympic level gymnastics there folks.
ETA: Snark aside, I’m heartsick about the whole thing.
Thoughtful Today
!
Two words:
“Militant fanatics.”
Mandalay
@glory b:
That’s a good question, and the answer appears to be that the devil is in the details of “domestic terrorism”. (I am being charitable and assuming that he was speaking from a legal perspective.)
This article titled Why Wasn’t Dylan Roof Charged With Terrorism? discusses the issue in detail.
Dmbeaster
Time to apply all the standard rhetoric reserved for Muslim terrorism to right wing terrorism. Such as when are the rest of the right wing religious zealots going to condemn terrorism by their fellow travelers? Or how the terrorism and violence is innate to their beliefs. Or how they all bear responsibility for the acts of terror of their extreme believers. Or how we saw thousands of Texas religious nut jobs cheering terrorism and slaughter at Planned Parenthood. Or how their leaders exploit terrorism by believers.
Cacti
But it’s Syrian refugees I’m supposed to fear.
Just ask the librul media.
FortGeek
@Viva BrisVegas: Unfortunately, there’s an unwritten amendment for most laws: Subparagraph IOKYAR. If you’re covered by that, for many infractions you get a wink, a nod, and a pass. Call for the death of the President: just expressing yourself. Wave guns around in a public place: just takin’ your little metal pet out for a walk. Shoot a black kid: he was no angel.
BUT…the PP scumbag killed a cop, so maybe they’ll overlook that exemption.
different-church-lady
Mass shooting overseas: Republicans scream for government action to prevent it from happening in this country.
Mass shooting in this country: “Hey, well, there’s nothing we can do, crazy people are going to be crazy, you know, it’s too soon…” etc. etc.
amk
@Viva BrisVegas:
IOKYAR exemption applies to all laws.
trollhattan
Carly Fiorina thought she saw a thing on a video so…totally understandable. Cue the “Why I don’t agree with his methods…” comments and also, too, concern over the gun’s
welfarewell-being.Grung_e_Gene
@amk: Republicans don’t give a shit about cops, they are willing to sacrifice any and every one to advance their agenda of oppression, intolerance and adulation of the rich.
Heliopause
I want to see Obama and Hillary and Bernie pay prominent visits to PP clinics in the coming days. Physically go to a clinic in solidarity, not just rhetorical support, and make a big media deal out of it. That’s what I want to see.
rikyrah
This guy is a domestic TERRORIST.
Killed a cop, and yet……He was taken ALIVE….
hmmmmmmmmm
Mike J
@Heliopause:
Hillary Clinton @HillaryClinton 5h5 hours ago
Today and every day, we #StandWithPP.
Bernie Sanders @BernieSanders 6h6 hours ago
Our bill to rebuild our crumbling roads, bridges and infrastructure would support 13 million jobs and drastically reduce underemployment.
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 6h6 hours ago
“@MargaretCrowth1: @realDonaldTrump So like the media to make something out of nothing. Don’t let them sidetrack from the message.”
Frankensteinbeck
@efgoldman:
She did not actually totally make it up. (She just wildly misrepresented it.) Because basic facts were disputed, and I wanted to know more, and to my immense, nauseated regret, I watched the commercial she put out defending her claim, then looked up information about it. There is a video clip, in the deceptively edited video released by the sting company, showing a moving, struggling late-term fetus that is not quite a baby, on a metal tray. It is grotesque and heartbreaking to look at. In the deceptively edited video, this is shown while a staffer talks about her qualms about having dealt with a still-living aborted fetus. That staffer quote is from the sting recordings (its veracity is a separate issue) and contains no reference to either keeping the fetus alive or killing it unnecessarily to aid harvesting. The unspeakably hard to watch video is not from the sting. It is file footage from a conservative group, with a murky origin. Last I heard, it was confirmed to be video of a particularly sad miscarriage.
I really wish I had not followed up on that particular debunking.
David Koch
@Mike J:
.
mclaren
So why haven’t the police forces of America rounded up for terrorism? And why are the people in the Pentagon still running free?
By this definition, they’re all terrorists.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@rikyrah:
Adam had a good point below — the guy had taken hostages and claimed to have explosives, so he was handled by a different set of rules than if he was just running around waving a gun. The overall point is still correct, but doesn’t entirely apply to a hostage situation.
Adam L Silverman
It’s not 28 C.F.R. Section 0.85 that you want to be referencing. It’s 18 US Code, Section 2331. You specifically want subsection 5, which deals with domestic terrorism.
(1) the term “international terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;
(2) the term “national of the United States” has the meaning given such term in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act;
(3) the term “person” means any individual or entity capable of holding a legal or beneficial interest in property;
(4) the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of—
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin; and
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
https://balloon-juice.com/2015/09/11/18-u-s-code-§-2331-the-us-definition-of-terrorism/
Adam L Silverman
@rikyrah: @Mnemosyne (tablet): The way the police responded today is how they should respond every day. That’s the real disgrace. Not that they did it correctly today, but that the standard for today isn’t the standard for every day for some law enforcement officers.
SiubhanDuinne
@David Koch:
Care. No matter what.
Fantastic tag for PP. I wonder when they adopted it as a motto.
SiubhanDuinne
@SiubhanDuinne:
Too late to edit. Googled out of curiosity and found a frothing RWNJ site ranting about the hypocrisy of “Care. No matter what” as a motto for Planned Parenthood. Click at your own risk. Apparently they started using it in late 2012.
kc
For fuck’s sake, CNN called this terrorism hours ago.
Taiko
Using an occasional delurk to note PP is listed in the Fed’s Combined Federal Campaign for charity giving this year. I had already decided I’d give to them. This latest attack just cements that decision, and perhaps I’ll now increase my original contribution expectation. I’d encourage other federal workers/military contributors to strongly consider them. At AmazonSmile, my contributions have been going to Wounded Wheels, with the expectation I’d change charities after this giving season. Now I know what I’ll change it to.
Elie
How can I scream ??? In rage, in pain and anguish loudly enough? What can we do? What can I do?
The right have a perfect set of assassins and terrorists willing to do whatever it takes — the insane, the alienated and the willfully violent….While I know (in my brain) that the best approach is to lean into it quietly and keep doing what is necessary to maintain this for women, I am so angry! So furious! But I refuse to be demoralized or backed down from this essential right. I refuse.
Eric U.
@Adam L Silverman: Roof wasn’t terrorism because he only wanted to affect the Black community and make sure they weren’t active politically. So 3/5’ths terrorism at most.
Mike J
New tweet from Bernie. Not there when I posted earlier, so I felt I should update:
Bernie Sanders @BernieSanders 31 minutes ago
We proudly #StandWithPP of Colorado Springs and the brave law enforcement personnel who fought to protect it.
Adam L Silverman
@Eric U.: I stated at the time, at my previous haunts, that Roof’s attack should be considered domestic terrorism. That said the process for having something labeled as such isn’t so straight forward. It used to be that DOJ/FBI had to open a domestic security file for something to be classified as terrorism. In this case I’m pretty sure they reckoned they couldn’t get a conviction on the domestic terrorism charge. The career prosecutors aren’t stupid, they understand that in the US terrorism has become synonymous with something done by Muslims, Arabs, Central Asians. And they are also aware of the data and findings from the American Terrorism Project. These clearly demonstrate that if one is accused of terrorism and is white and Christian it is harder to get a conviction. And the bulk of this research project was done prior to 9-11.
David Koch
@Mike J: it takes Tad Devine a long time to fire up his Osborne laptop and post using his 300 baud rate modem
mclaren
@efgoldman:
Oh, so white police who systematically target and harass and profile and beat and tase and shoot blacks are not engaged in “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce…the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives”?
Good to know.
So law professor Michelle Alexander’s book The New Jim Crow is just the result of delusions, fantasy, and dementia. Glad to hear it.
I am so relieved. For a minute there, i thought there were a disproportionate number of black people languished in U.S. prisons or on parole. I actually thought that one out of every 3 black males in America is either in prison or on parole or an ex-convict.
And I thought it was being done for a specific political purpose.
mclaren
@Eric U.:
There, fixed that for ya.
Now we need someone to scream “hyperbole!” in a small hysterical eunuch-like wail.
mclaren
@Elie:
Just imagine if you were black. Or gay.
Rock
@TaMara (BHF):
They’ll just blame Planned Parenthood for existing. Something like this needless tragedy needn’t have happened if the government followed the will of the people and shut down PP.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: He’s been charged at the state level for 9 counts of murder, as well as one weapons charge.
http://theweek.com/speedreads/561618/charleston-shooting-suspect-dylann-roof-charged-9-counts-murder
At the Federal level he’s facing 33 counts of hate crimes and weapons charges. SC doesn’t have a hate crimes statute/provision.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/31/us/dylann-roof-not-guilty-plea-charleston-church-shooting/
He killed a well liked state legislator, well liked across the partisan divide. That won’t guarantee that he’ll be convicted at the state level, but its going to make the prosecution work extra hard.
BillinGlendaleCA
@mclaren:
IIRC, I don’t think Elie needs to imagine.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@mclaren:
Elie doesn’t have to imagine being black, you putz.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Two minds with but a single thought. ;-)
Villago Delenda Est
The forced-birthers are terrorists on their face. Textbook terrorists.
Mandalay
Completely OT =>
HSBC employees jailed for helping clients evade taxes: zero.
Clients jailed for evading taxes: zero.
And what percentage of wealthy clients were cheating? About 99.87% of French clients…
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Yes, but you did add, “you putz”.
BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman:
[Snorts].
Mandalay
GOP presidential candidates are horrified by the Planned Parenthood shootings:
Marco Rubio:
Rand Paul:
Grifting is dirty work, but someone has to do it. If not Marco and Rand, then who?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Reuters has a name that they’ve said is the shooter:
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
Mike J
@efgoldman: Boobs are warm and nourishing.Never met a Republican like that.
amk
so, this is where the chaff falls out?
“Voting doesn’t begin for another two months but some presidential candidates have already failed their first big ballot test – actually getting on the ballot in all 50 states.
The business of getting a candidate’s name on the ballot is a costly and complex endeavor, a major drain of money and manpower that threatens to weed out the most underfunded campaigns and strain the others in what remains a historically unwieldy Republican field. Some states require thousands of signatures to qualify; others charge tens of thousands of dollars.
Nationally, the price tag for ballot access can soar well past $1 million – more money than some campaigns have left in the bank
…
Barring a major organizational misfire, there’s little doubt that the top-tier Republicans with big money operations – Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz and Donald Trump – will be on the ballot nationwide. But for everyone else – including Chris Christie, John Kasich and Rand Paul, whose campaigns say they are on track to be on the ballot everywhere – ballot access is an expensive challenge.
andy
@TaMara (BHF): If it happens at a Planned Parenthood you can count on some kind or organized activity behind it. The one in my town got firebombed and then a few years later shot up. The FBI and the BATF never did find the people who did it. Members of our faith community issued pro-forma statements of regret for the violence, but the editorial pages were full of yahoos saying they got what they had coming, though all our office did was hand out condoms, give depo shots, and do pap smears. What finally did in our PP office was budget cuts during the recession, but the local Faith Community still starts their annual “March for Life” at that location. They do love to gloat…
David Koch
@Mike J: Nothing like a pair of liberal b00bs — Spectacular
J R in WV
I’ve been donating to Planned Parenthood monthly for years. It makes a much larger donation less painful as it comes out each month instead of being one large amount once a year.
Then last fall we attended a fund-raising reception hosted by a friend of Mrs J for the politically active committee of Planned Parenthood.
My mom was a huge believer in womens’ right to health care and bodily autonomy. That raw desire kept Mom alive 3 or 4 years longer that any of her doctors believed was possible to vote one more time for a Democratic Presidential candidate, to protect the Supreme Court from the Republican Christianists, who would have appointed a Court willing to do its bidding.
I’m convinced that one of Mom’s cousins or closest friends in her youth died of a botched abortion. You didn’t talk about such things with you make children back then, of course. But she was such a robust Republican until it was obvious that her “wonderful” Republican leaders were going to require women to endure those dark secret illegal abortions again. And she was going to do whatever it took to keep that from happening again.
She was a very strong person in many ways. It got her into college at the age of 14 or 15. She skipped two grades at elementary school, and stayed with her Aunt when she went away to college, Grandma (also a strong woman!) wanted to see her in college, but at 14 she and her sister arranged together that Mom would live at her house in 1942.
Any, TMI. We give what we can to PP in honor of Mom’s memory and hard work on behalf of women’s rights. When these Xianists attack our freedoms in the name of their cults it makes my skin crawl from the evil emanations. Supporting Planned Parenthood and other women’s groups financially is the least we can do for the women in our lives.
Oatler.
The terrorist’s country of origin was North Carolina. Let’s treat this scene like Taliban in Afghanistan: Destroy the threat with all available forces. Collaborator websites are curiously silent about the story as if Fox viewers are still riding a tryptophan buzz.
Botsplainer
@Rock:
I see you’ve been reading Free Republic.
Kathleen
@J R in WV: Thank you for sharing that lovely story about your mother. A very inspiring way to begin my day.
LAC
@efgoldman: and from mclaren, you never will.
I am bumping up my contribution to PP. Sick of these goddamn lunatics. Wish we had an exchange program with Syria. Fly that bastard in and let him experience real political /religious oppression
Chris
@FortGeek:
Unfortunately, there’s an unwritten amendment for most laws: Subparagraph IOKYAR. If you’re covered by that, for many infractions you get a wink, a nod, and a pass. Call for the death of the President: just expressing yourself. Wave guns around in a public place: just takin’ your little metal pet out for a walk. Shoot a black kid: he was no angel. BUT…the PP scumbag killed a cop, so maybe they’ll overlook that exemption.
The rules are muddier when the shooter is a random white guy with no immediate and blatant ties to an institution right wingers love. The entire reason they rush to proclaim everyone like this a “lone wolf” or “mentally ill” is so they can condemn him without having to reexamine anything about their precious totems. Dylan Roof, for example, may have gotten the kid gloves treatment compared to what he would’ve gotten if he were Muslim, Latin, and/or black (or even white but left wing) – but I still saw plenty of right wingers condemning him and washing their hands of him in a way they would never in a million years have done for a cop.
On the other hand, then you get cases like Zimmerman where the random white guy manages to become an instant rock star to the entire conservative movement. Like I said, rules are muddy. It’s kind of a crap shoot to know what they’ll ultimately decide on cases like this; it depends on which side of the bed they got out of that morning as much as anything else.
Chris
@efgoldman:
So: call them terrorists. Then what?
If there’s one thing we’ve learned from the controversies following Benghazi, Paris, and now U.S. police shootings, it’s that life is a Wizard Of Earthsea novel in which discovering and using something’s True Name will give you the power to… to… to… you know, something.
proterozoic
Went, gave $35
Barry
@glory b: “Which is why I don’t understand why our FBI Director has said that Dylan Root’s killing of the black church Bible study members wasn’t a terrorist act. ”
Because he’s the director of the FBI, and is likely far more concerned about leftist and Islamic terrorism than ‘boys will be boys’ ‘getting out of hand’.