The LA Times is reporting, as of 15 minutes ago, that Law Enforcement has shot one suspect connected to the chase of a black SUV. It is unclear, however, if this is related to the mass shooting earlier today near the Inland Regional Center in San Bernadino. The FBI is being (appropriately) cautious in how they classify this, but David Bowdich, the Supervisory Special Agent in Charge of the Los Angeles Field Office is classifying the shooting as: “we do not know if the shooting is a ‘terrorist incident.’” Jared Burguan, the San Bernadino Chief of Police made the following statement: “At minimum, we have a domestic terrorist-type situation here. They came prepared to do what they did, as if they were on a mission.” The reported shooting at a nearby Target was a false alarm (warning: autoplay video at the link). So that’s at least good news. Fatalities are still at 14 and the number of wounded is now at 17.
As usual expect the reporting to change rapidly over the next 24-72 hours.
The Dangerman
“Conveniently”, I am visiting with a Parent in San Bernardino today (Mother having minor surgery); oh, lucky me. Fortunately, I’m far, FAR away from all known activity (so far). Activity is South End and I’m far North End.
ETA: I saw the “suspect” down (on TV) and there was a long rifle at his feet and an SUV shot to shit. Probably a bad day to be driving a black Yukon on the way to a shooting range.
? Martin
LA Times: “Fed law enf. official says they believe one man angrily left meeting; returned with “one or two” others; started shooting.”
Still hearing reports that they are searching for another suspect around the distribution facilities nearby.
Schlemazel
@The Dangerman:
Keep your head down, if they are chasing & shooting you have no way of knowing.
lamh36
Pete Williams at MSNBC said earlier from his sources,
3 men in vehicle. One person rolled out and arrested, and the other 2 open fire…one is dead, one is wounded.
He also said in based on his own experience , that this so far, feels like none of the hallmarks of international or jihadi terrorism, because from his sourcing, no words from suspects heard and no messages from groups so far. He seemed to think this likely domestic terrorism, not international
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@? Martin: The fuck? What the hell kind of group was it?
I’ve been wondering if the relatively low-key tone of MSNBC indicates that there is currently no indication of being what we all know is the only real kind of terrorism?
ETA: @lamh36: Trying to avoid playing amateur terrorism expert here on my couch, but aren’t international groups are pretty quick to claim credit?
Baud
The video with the SUV is fascinating.
Crazy horrible stuff.
Cermet
Apparently, one may have gotten away. One is dead just outside the SUV
The Dangerman
@Schlemazel:
Definitely not going out again tonight; I’m far enough away to be as safe as one can be in San Bernardino (which is NOT a safe town with all the drugs and prostitution, but, again, I’m as safe as can be given my location).
ETA: I got lucky as I was out shopping this morning and I went to Costco in Fontana (more convenient for the North End of town to go a couple cities West) as opposed to Costco San Bernardino (as the latter Costco is about a mile from the initial shooting location).
goblue72
@? Martin: WTH? Some hick get denied a permit for his septic system?
FDRLincoln
What kind of terrorist group would target the public health department?
This doesn’t sound at all like an ISIL thing. But what kind of domestic terror group would target public health workers? Anti-flouride activists?
Anoniminous
@? Martin:
If true, still has to have some kind of planning. Even in San Bernardino you can’t run outside and just wave down a couple of people to help you commit mass murder.
lamh36
New info just from, Pete Williams reporting 1 person is at large and that person may be barricaded in a church…but info is fluid…
Now Chris Matthews on MSNBC…ugh…
Baud
Ugh. MSNBC switched to Chris Matthews.
Baud
@lamh36:
Ha!
? Martin
Seeing video now of a perimeter being established around another building. Looks like the church around the corner at Gould and Richardson.
Cermet
Not likely terrorist but a grudge or similar issue – maybe militha types (had tactical gear/armor and assault rifles.)
Roger Moore
@lamh36:
Given the report about somebody angrily leaving the meeting half an hour earlier, I could easily imagine this just being a gang of heavily armed assholes murderously overreacting to a slight*. It’s truly scary that in the US, that can result in more than a dozen fatalities, but it seems at least as plausible as other scenarios. In any case, it feels like something targeting this group specifically for personal reasons rather than a generic terrorist attack. And, as I’ve said previously, an international terrorist attack in LA would probably target someplace famous and iconic, like Hollywood Blvd, not a conference room in San Bernardino.
*Just remember, an armed society is a terrified society!
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@lamh36:
Not to be too snarky about it, but like I said in the other thread, there’s no foreign terrorist in the world who’s going to fly into LAX and then sit in traffic for 3 hours so he can shoot up San Bernardino, the meth capital of Southern California.
This is as all-American as Oklahoma City was.
goblue72
There have been over 1,000 mass shootings in the U.S. since Sandy Hook killing 1,300 people –
American War Zone
lamh36
Spokesperson said one suspect still outstanding
NBCNightlyNews 22s22 seconds ago
MORE: Police: At least 1 other suspect believed to be at large; still being determined if there is a 3rd suspect.
Adam L Silverman
@? Martin: @Jim, Foolish Literalist: @lamh36: What’s interesting here, if the reporting is accurate of one person angrily left meeting, went out to car, got others, tooled up, returned inside, started shooting. Pete Williams is correct, that’s not like a normal terrorist methodology.
The local police chief indicated that they had not just the weapons, but also body armor. It definitely sounds premeditated – as in if I don’t get my way in this meeting, my fall back is to grab my buddies, grab the body armor, grab the guns, and make someone pay. That could be a bunch of extremists. It could also be someone at a business development meeting at the end of his financial rope and and with serious anger management issues.
Now we have to wait and see what shakes out and hope no one else has slipped the cordon and is still out there and a threat.
ThresherK
@The Dangerman: I was never closer than 20 miles to the finish line at the Boston Marathon bombing that Monday, and when it actually happened I was driving home on the Mass Pike, another ten miles west.
So when you say “far away”, but you’re in the same city, I shudder a bit for you. Keep safe.
goblue72
@Anoniminous: Its San Bernardino. You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a meth-head.
chopper
@Anoniminous:
right. could be some crazy militia guy wanting to get a permit or a something and made plans with his buddies to ‘fuck those guys up’ if he didn’t get it.
Villago Delenda Est
Initial reports ALWAYS suck. The situation is always confused and chaotic; determining motive is impossible this early, without blatantly obvious markers, and even those are never certain.
Naturally, our friends of the wingnutosphere will scream about false flags and transgendered and Zeus knows what else in a desperate attempt to obfuscate the known fact that firearms were involved.
? Martin
MSNBC now showing that other scene – Davidson street between Richardson and Curtis. This is a report of another suspect holed up in a house or roaming this neighborhood.
Villago Delenda Est
@FDRLincoln: “Sovereign Citizens” who think they are Judge Dredd.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I remember after 9-11 happens being on with local TV in Gainesville, FL explaining to them that it was unlikely international terrorists were going to target UF. You can’t fly into Gainesville from anywhere, the only decent way in by car is I75, the other way in and out is the Waldo Road that runs through Waldo, Lawty, and Stark – the three worst speed traps in the world. Basically people get pulled over for driving while driving going that way to and from Jacksonville. And if I was going to target a college football game, I’d pick Notre Dame. There on national TV every weekend, so why try hassle my way into and out of Gainesville. They then asked if I thought someone would target UF’s nuclear reactor. My response was: I’m the terrorism expert on the UF faculty and until you asked, I didn’t know we had one, but now everyone does.
trollhattan
@? Martin:
Jesus, this reminds me more of the SLA or Manson family than our “run of the mill” 21st century spree killers.
? Martin
Boy, this neighborhood is a real shithole.
goblue72
@Adam L Silverman: You need to spend more time trolling around the nether-regions of Reddit and 4chan.
There are a LOT of sick fucks in this country, many of them stockpiling not just a couple of handguns, but full arsenals. For a mere $600, you can get the Deluxe Shooters Package of body armor!
Cermet
An area and church 5 blocks south is being searched – ugh. Arrested some people but likely dealers (lol.) That would be a strange result … .
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I’m sure there are plenty of other places in the IE ready to dispute that title.
The Dangerman
@ThresherK:
I’m not far from the Cal State, which is about as far away as you can be and still be in the same city. Definitely safe…
…although, I have to say, it’s pretty damn strange knowing the area so well (I grew up here) and seeing this play out on live TV.
p.a.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Obviously a police false flag op to keep the flow of military hardware going.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Adam L Silverman:
Us locals aren’t kidding when we say San Berdoo is the meth capital of Southern California. I would not be at all surprised if this is somehow related. Meth heads are not exactly known for their calm and rational decision making.
Anoniminous
O/T
Pelosi and House Dems told Ryan to shove his poison pill laced budget. The New Speaker has 9 days to cobble a Budget or the Federal government gets shut down.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: This type of stuff happened in Iraq. An excellent young officer (Army captain) who was a friend was killed in something like this. A local council meeting had ended, one of the Iraqi participants left ahead of the battalion contingent and personal security detail and the other Iraqis. He went out to his car, got a long gun, returned to the building and lit everyone up on the way out. The young officer and a couple of other Soldiers were killed and one of the translators suffered a serious head injury.
I had spoken by phone to that officer that morning. He asked if my team and I could help him put together a survey implement to conduct a local census with the Iraqis. Whenever we’d see him, he always had a smile on his face. Complete and utter shame.
Seanly
I had some early first thoughts, like maybe a father & sons angry about some perceived slight by the agency. Too early to tell. And really, no good reason to wildly speculate…
RE: locations – the afternoon of the Oklahoma City bombing, lots of my fellow grad students were angry about Middle Easterners. I said it was an American because why would someone travel out to middle of nowhere (relative to Chicago, Boston, NYC or LA) to attack a random federal building.
ThresherK
@The Dangerman: Once in a very great while I see a reporter from a car-crash scene within five miles of my home, and it’s odd to watch it on TV, so I can’t imagine your synaptic response.
The Dangerman
@? Martin:
That’s San Bernardino these days (for those that read the LA Times, there have been multiple special stories on SB and how bad it is).
It’s really, REALLY bad. Damn near 3rd world when you go below the 210 Freeway. I never, EVER go down there after dark (it scares the shit out of me to go down there in the daytime).
ETA: Curiously, the area of the initial shooting is one of the nicer areas of “downtown” (Hospitality Lane is “redevelped” and has a lot of restaurants, professional buildings, government offices like this one involved, etc). Still don’t hit Hospitality Lane after dark as the gang activity is far too scary for my tastes.
Pogonip
@lamh36: I believe Isis terrorists always announce “Allah something!” before opening fire (forgot the phrase!). So it probably wasn’t them. And Isis wouldn’t have any reason to go after the San Bernardino Department of Public Works anyway.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Roger Moore:
At a minimum, it’s the county seat of the meth capital, which may be a factor at play here.
Adam L Silverman
@goblue72: I’m aware of what you can get. I’m also aware that most of those folks, thankfully and so far, are all talk and no action. At this point all we can do is wait and see what the investigation shakes out once they finish getting the situation under control.
max
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Trying to avoid playing amateur terrorism expert here on my couch, but aren’t international groups are pretty quick to claim credit?
Daesh took a couple of days. So did al-Queda.
It doesn’t matter: you could describe everyone of these as ‘when assholes attack’.
max
[‘Foreign assholes, domestic assholes, same goddamn difference.’]
Cermet
Wow, doing house by house search and these are large groups with weapons ready. hate to have them come to my door …
goblue72
@goblue72: And if you can’t afford that, there’s always eBay.
You can strap yourself up with body armor, a cheap AR-15 or AK knockoff, and plenty of ammo for less than buying a new Apple laptop would cost you.
You don’t need to pre-plan this shit. You just need to be some random loser with a mild gun fetish and tough guy fantasy.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I have a good friend who is a criminology professor at Cal State San Bernadino, so I’m tracking! I am not suggesting that his presence in San Bernadino is connected to the meth problem.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@goblue72:
That’s the other reason I’m starting to wonder if meth lab operators are at the bottom of this. They would have a lot of weaponry on hand and very few inhibitions about using it.
goblue72
@Adam L Silverman: If there are 10,000 angry nuts out there and only 1% are heavily armed, that’s still 100 heavily armed nuts, perfesser.
And there are a lot more than 10,000 angry nuts out there.
Less credulity, more what is as obvious as the nose on your face.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
That’s brutal, very sorry about your friend. I suppose ironically, Iraq is as armed to the gills as we are.
David Koch
Just got home.
My local network affiliate is showing reruns of Judge Judy.
Must be domestic terrorism. Networks only interrupt reruns of JJ if it’s scary arabs.
Adam L Silverman
@goblue72: 1) I’m not a perfessor, professor, or any other form of faculty. 2) I’m very aware of what is out there.
EthylEster
OT but…the site is going backwards on the use of the blogroll.
After the redesign, selecting a combo box entry open the selection in the tab to the right of B-J.
Now it opens a new browser instance…with no scroll bar.
I prefer how it worked BEFORE the site redesign.
But a new browser instance is just wrong.
Jay C
@? Martin:
San Bernardino is kind of the Oklahoma of California, I wouldn’t be surprised if the cops turned up a meth lab or two in their searches…
lamh36
I have bad feeling about this SUV bidness…it was so quick…I sincerely hope that this SUV is indeed that of the suspects…
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: It happens. It was a very bad day and, fortunately, my brigade had very few of them during the deployment. The area of operations was, thankfully, comparatively very stable. My understanding is the shooter was mentally unstable and the local branch of one of the insurgent groups got their hooks into him.
Iraqi law permits one firearm, usually a long gun, per household. It is legal for some to also own sidearms. The average Iraqis prefer long guns, hand guns were what Saddam used to perform summary executions.
D58826
Fortunately Mike Hucklebee has explained it all. The facility today was a gun free zone therefore the victims are at fault for their own deaths. I’m so glad that we have such wonderful Christians running for president..
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Seanly:
Even Boston was home-grown assholes, not foreign terrorists. I think the only successful foreign attacks on US soil have been NYC and the Pentagon (with a foiled attempt on Washington DC).
Villago Delenda Est
@max: Exactly. No real difference. Assholes all the way down.
? Martin
I guess the thing I’d add – if it is ISIS or whoever, they wouldn’t be flying in – they’d be local and hit a local target that they were familiar with, so it’s not unreasonable that they would hit a target in SB if they were from there. Terrorism is about targets of opportunity.
It’s still damn strange.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Don’t forget the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor!
Enhanced Voting Techinques
@Pogonip: and Isis blows themselves up at the end of it like with Paris.
NickM
@lamh36: No wonder all my rwnj FB relatives have gone oddly silent, unlike during the Paris attack.
David Koch
These shooting wouldn’t be happening if we had prayer in public schools.
? Martin
@Jay C: More than a few. I used to live about 10 miles from there. I know the area a bit, and from appearances things have actually gone downhill since then.
MazeDancer
The TV coverage is wall-to-wall. Except NBC which is going ahead with the tree lighting. Which probably parents with little children appreciate.
Clicking channels, have to say Shep Smith giving best coverage. Fox had every chopper of every network and were just cutting back and forth to best shot, giving credit as they changed.
Pete Williams giving his “authoritative inside report” of how 3 suspects accounted for while clearly they were not. As onscreen as he talks, the two swat vehicles surrounding someone else in the SUV, then pulling a body out of the car with some kind of steel long arm was a strange juxtaposition. And another suspect is holed up somewhere.
But when Shep’s not on the scene it’s grim at Fox. (As always) Especially while Greta talks about someone leaving a meeting at the Center angrily. An Environmental Health meeting. And then what, Greta? Angrily gets two pals with tactical gear? (Not buying this is Climate related, yet.) So left there.
It’s all so horrible. But at least the suspects are found.
Baud
@NickM:
They’re hoping these guys are undocumented as a consolation prize.
goblue72
@? Martin: Hey, its entirely possibly it WAS ISIS and they got lost in the spaghetti of LA area freeways and took the wrong exit trying to get to Hollywood.
joes527
@goblue72:
So, still really expensive then?
Mike J
SB was the second mass shooting today. Only four people shot, just a run of the mill, ho-hum mass shooting.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Villago Delenda Est: Well, If it’s domestic assholes, Joe Scarborough, Andrea Mitchell and other denizens of EventheLiberalMSNBC can’t use it to beat the drum for war
Just One More Canuck
per shootingtracker.com, this is the 355th mass shooting (defined as 4 or more injuries or fatalities) in the US in 2015
raven
Tweety is gleeful that “the camera’s are ahead of the reporters”. He said it at least 10 times in the first 20 minutes of the show. He’s a fuckin moron.
Enhanced Voting Techinques
Hmm, the party was full Latinos. it was premidated, the shooters come well equiped and have an escape plan instead of suicied by cop like crazy whites do or blow themsleves up like Jihadists, make it sound almost like some drug gang thing.
goblue72
@MazeDancer: It was Department of Public Health. In the context of a typical county DPH, “Environmental Health” is typically the unit in a DPH that deals with food service and food production permits, restaurant inspections, lead paint & other household toxics exposure prevention, etc.
? Martin
@Enhanced Voting Techinques: Drug gangs in the past haven’t been dumb enough to attack a government facility.
But CA is nearly 50% latino, and that’s higher in the public sector because we tend to be less discriminatory in hiring. So pretty much any party is going to be full of latinos.
David Koch
If it was Latinos, then Trump is right, we’re going to have to register all Latinos. Oh wait.
? Martin
@goblue72: They are also the office that will remove you from your home if the residence is unsafe – hoarders, poor upkeep, etc.
RaflW
@goblue72: But if you are a Fox personality (except Shep), the word environment automatically = panty waist climate nazis.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Enhanced Voting Techinques:
As several of us have said, it’s a major meth production area. So the “drug gang” is probably a bunch of white dudes in trailers pissed off that the county is trying to shut down their meth lab.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I wonder how many drafted tweets about the feckless Obama administration poor ol’ man McCain had to delete in the last hour.
goblue72
@RaflW: No kidding.
goblue72
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Maybe their meth lab didn’t pass its most recent health and safety inspection. Somebody forgot to wash their hands in the middle of the “cook”.
Myiq2xu
BREAKING: San Bernardino shooters were enraged by a YouTube video.
Gimlet
“Before I begin I just want to say that we are all thinking of the current and ongoing tragedy in California today,” House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI) said before asking for a moment of silence. “Please keep the victims and their families in your prayers right now.”
goblue72
@? Martin: No kidding. Why do folks automatically go “room full of Latinos” = maybe it was drug gang related?
EthylEster
@Adam L Silverman: Hi. I graduated from UF. The thing about the reactor, I didn’t know about it either until Sally Fields started talking about her brother, who was some kind of nuclear researcher there. This was some years ago but the film report had both of them sitting in front of the reactor building. It’s the typical “toy” reactor that some university nuclear engineering depts use for teaching.
The Other Chuck
Fuck your “thoughts and prayers”, Ryan. Fuck them and fuck you and fuck the second amendment. Repeal it. Gun nuts aren’t protecting us from tyranny, they ARE tyranny.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@? Martin:
Hmmm. Those kind of cases can get really ugly, really fast, because you’re usually dealing with people who have major mental health issues. Wasn’t there some guy who built a homemade tank and rampaged around his small town because he was a hoarder on the verge of being evicted by the health department?
Baud
@raven:
And yet again.
raven
Again with “pictures ahead of the reporting”. Fucking babbling idiot.
Schlemazel
There was an 8 day stretch in April without a single mass shooting, that is the longest period this year. Today is the 336th day of 2015 & there have been 355 mass shootings (4 or more victims) . . . 355.
@The Other Chuck: got it exactly right
Ultraviolet Thunder
My FB page was so far gone into rage and ranting that I had to bust out a kitten picture and order everyone to calm the FK down.
Origuy
@EthylEster: Yes, Illinois had one of those, too. I saw it once on a tour for engineering students. The reactor core was about the size of a beach ball inside a big pool of water surrounded by concrete. They removed the reactor in 2004 and dismantled the rest of it in 2011.
Betty Cracker
@raven: I can’t bear to listen to that moron these days.
Trentrunner
LA Times is reporting that one of the shooters was attending the County Health party, got into a dispute, left the party and then returned with two accomplices.
Somehow, even sadder than domestic/int’l terrorism.
Mike J
@Ultraviolet Thunder: Do we have to start raging here to get a kitten pic?
MazeDancer
@goblue72:
Thanks for environmental clarification.
The meeting angle only mentioned on Fox. Elsewhere, there was discussion of a holiday party of the Department of Health being the focus.
Chris Matthews just acknowledged that the chopper TV pictures were ahead of the reporting.
eemom
@The Other Chuck:
Seconded, except that the Second Amendment doesn’t actually need to be repealed, because it doesn’t say what scumbag Scalia said it does in the Heller case.
p.a.
@Ultraviolet Thunder: For a nice psychic/emotional cleansing I recommend downloading the Ella and Louis album.
SiubhanDuinne
@D58826:
I can very easily imagine Huckabee saying that — it is almost word-for-word what Santorum said on Tweety the other day (yesterday? only yesterday?) about PP in Colorado Springs — but did he, in fact, say that out loud today about SB? Source?
ThresherK
@efgoldman: Oh, you’re lucky. Our ABC local kept the network news coverage all through 7:30pm, thereby no Jeopardy!, but came back to regularly scheduled programming in time for Wheel of Fortune.
Not sure when we’ll hit the “cable TV can’t cut away and is just wallowing in it” point.
raven
@Origuy: We used to walk by it all the time.
lamh36
@raven: I was following on MSNBC, but when they switched to Chris Matthews, I was done… at least until Chris Hayes
different-church-lady
@Ultraviolet Thunder: Another day of FB going exactly the way Zuckerberg intended then.
Feebog
I’m vacationing in Cabo San Lucas, the crappy cable package gives me a choice of CNN or Fox. Ugh. Following on my IPad on NBC. Just going to suggest that we all stop speculating about meth deals gone wrong and the like. This is a pretty strange set of circumstances.
Baud
@lamh36:
You made the right choice.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Well, you also have Clive Bundy who was facing something not radically different and managed to get dozens of really heavily armed people to come to his property and take up sniper positions against federal employees.
p.a.
@Origuy: URI also has one. I assume most are part of DOE programs. I don’t know if there would be much danger if they were attacked, but URI’s is helpfully located on Reactor Rd.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Gimlet:
SiubhanDuinne
@raven:
Tweety always says everything ten times, at least. Apart from Trump, I can’t think of anyone quite as in love with the sound of his own voice and the utter brilliance of his own word-turds.
goblue72
@Trentrunner: Because its so mundane. Co-worker A gets pissed off at somebody. Its a holiday party, so maybe there were some drinks being served (though its a midday office party of a county agency so unlikely). Co-worker A is already kinda unstable and has been halfway to going mental for awhile. Storms out, goes home and grabs a couple of his equally mental buddies.
In the other thread, I had 4 predictions, of which 3 were serious (the 4th was ISIS). First one was some co-worker Went Postal. #2 was a disgruntled loser got rebuffed by a woman he was infatuated with. Either way, run of the mill B.S. that absent the easy availability of guns would have just ended with crazy dude screaming at everyone and storming off to go get drunk somewhere.
lamh36
Ultraviolet Thunder
@different-church-lady:
It’s like this: into a discussion about how much murdering is happening lately, and how this is bad, bursts an in-law foaming ….LAW ABIDING!…MY COLD, DEAD FINGERS…SECOND AMENDMENT*… and so on.
Had to shut that unwelcome shit right down.
*Apologies for the hysteria. Actual quotes.
lamh36
Alright, Tweety’s done and Chris Hayes is back…good
rikyrah
It’s about time they took it to their REAL enemy
HuffPost PoliticsVerified account
@HuffPostPol
9/11 responders crashed Mitch McConnell’s office after he blocked their bill. It was ugly. http://huff.to/1QUG8u0
JPL
NYTIMES
A witness has told police that although the gunmen had their faces covered, one of them sounded and appeared very similar to an employee who had left the facility earlier in the day.
“They had their appearances covered but a witness believed it had been someone who worked there,” said one official.
? Martin
@EthylEster: We have one as well. You can do slightly dangerous things with it, but it’s a potential target just because the idea of a reactor freaks people the fuck out.
The biggest terrorist target at most research universities is the vivarium – where animal testing takes place. It’s not a terribly dangerous threat, but its constant.
Gvg
@Adam L Silverman: sort of off topic but the Waldo and Hampton speed traps are gone. I wouldn’t call Starke a speed trap, it’s just normal, but Hampton was the one between Waldo and Lawty. The annexed two pieces of 301 for speed traps but the tiny town wasn’t even on 301. They were dis incorporated by the state a couple of years ago. State audits found huge embezzlement mostly by one family that were the only ones who wanted certain jobs running the books in town. Apparently they got millions and I still don’t see how because it’s such a small poor town. A few hundred people. Waldo’s police went bust after the long time sherif retired and now it is just state highway patrol who don’t have time to bother lurking to catch speeders where it’s not really needed. The reputation persists but eventually people will drive normal not paranoid there. When the bypass is finished, their won’t even be a need for the speed limits as traffic won’t be comming thru. I think Lawty is still the same but I don’t need to go that way.
The state has actually been doing some bookkeeping audits of tiny towns and taking away incorporations which remove tiny police departments and such. Mostly too small in fame to make the news.
Matt McIrvin
@eemom:
It does now, because Scalia is the one who gets to say what it says, not us.
So repeal it.
Davebo
Dr. Ben Carson
Definitely not the sharpest bowling ball on the rack.
The Other Chuck
@eemom: I’m well aware of the “well-regulated” context of the second amendment, but the way things stand, we have a standing army, so there really isn’t any current justification for the historical reasoning either. Repeal is still the best option.
joes527
@JPL: So … someone got into an argument at a Christmas party and went out to their SUV to get their 2 homicidal friends, tactical gear, and pipe bombs?
Something doesn’t add up. Stay tuned … the information will change before we know what happened.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@JPL:
If it does turn out to be a workplace shooting, that should come out pretty quickly.
TaMara (BHF)
So you get pissed off, leave a meeting and conveniently have two friends, body armor for all and an arsenal at home, so you can get back in an hour to shoot up the place?
We really are fucked.
@joes527: Or what you said.
jl
@JPL: If those reports are true, a very sad case of unstable person and unstable friends going off the rails due to some minor thing. As commenter above said, would very probably not end in mass death and maiming unless firearms are easily available.
I can easily imagine that there are many people in the US who have all sorts of weaponry and body armor within reach at home.
If those reports are true, then this is a further example that ‘an armed society is a polite society’.is BS. Though, I think stand-your-ground laws have already shown that.
lamh36
@joes527: except, no real timeline of when…so in theory, the person could have called up his boys and left and came back.
But it seems way to random…I mean…dude said “suit up” and his boys said…”hell yeah”…
What?
Mike J
I can’t think of anybody who could show up at my door and say, “let’s go shoot up my workplace”, with whom I would go, even if I already had on my balaclava.
joes527
@lamh36: So … someone got into an argument at a Christmas party and went out to their SUV^H^H^H house to get their 2 homicidal friends, tactical gear, and pipe bombs?
Something still doesn’t add up. Stay tuned … the information will change before we know what happened.
Wordpress Developers
Folks,
Just a quick site note. I’ve been working on a number of issues, some more devilish than others.
If you have new comments or issues, please use the Site Maintenance post under About Balloon Juice. I will check it tomorrow and add to/edit my list as appropriate. I will respond.
Some issues are technical and beyond my direct control, but we’ll get ‘er done soon.
Major Issues & Fixes
The mobile “old content” issue for iOS and some/all Android devices is known and very frustrating to solve, but we will.
RSS is flaky; this makes no sense.
Many small things.
For those using iOS devices and having blogroll issues, it’s your Safari “no pop-ups” Setting, not the site. I’ll try to remake the blogroll soon to get past this, but it’s you, not us! :)
But, we should be much better for screen readers and assistive technology/AT
Black text for comment buttons is enabled. Turns out all the formatting things didn’t override the default settings for the button widget like they were supposed to. Go figure.
And finally, don’t be surprised if sometime soon, you end up at a secure, SSL-protected Balloon-Juice. It’s all part of the plan. It will resolve as https://balloon-juice.com and will otherwise be exactly the same, except that everything you read and type will be protected from snooping by SSL encryption. You’ll see a green indicator, a lock, or some similar indicator of a secure connection.
— Alain
Thanks, and now back to our surreal American reality…..
jl
@joes527: Maybe so. It might be that the dispute was a pretext for something that was already planned. Still, I think a lot of people in the US could just go home and round up their guns ammo and pipe bombs and body armor to do something in a hour or two if they had a mind to.
JPL
@joes527: no kidding.. They did put tape around a house and the police appeared to be in the area when the suv was spotted.
Who has friends ready with ak47’s and masks at a moments notice..
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@joes527: I’d bet there’s at least one father-son or brother connection among the three (ETA: assuming the info’s accurate)
Ultraviolet Thunder
“Hey, let’s go die on a moment’s notice for this bro’s squabble”?
Not buyin’ it.
beltane
@lamh36: If they were actually his boys, i.e. sons, it might make a little more sense. But even if this was a spur of the moment thing, there was an awful lot of equipment involved.
Smiling Mortician
@WordPress Developers: Thank you.
@Mike J: And, I guess, thank you too? Good to know, anyway.
p.a.
@lamh36: yeah, the loner nut job shooting up his workplace and killing innocents as well as grudge targets is so typical (USA USA USA). But getting willing help??!!
JPL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That would at least make more sense.. A well armed family is a safe family.
different-church-lady
@Mike J: “A friend will help you move. A real friend will..”
beltane
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’ve been thinking family connection all along.
different-church-lady
@beltane:
JPL
@beltane: My son also but I’m still skeptical. He thought it was workplace because of the target.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It does have the feel of a family thing. If someone had an ex-wife or ex-girlfriend at the party, it becomes even more likely.
PurpleGirl
@EthylEster: Go up to “About Balloon Juice”, drop down the menu and open the file for comments on site maintenance. Put your comment there, the designers may not, or probably won’t, see it here. They aren’t reading the threads for design comments now. They created that separate and dedicated thread.
lamh36
@beltane: right… a family of nuts…end of days, crazy survivalist family seem likely to have this time of militant equipment at the ready?
I mean is the area known for IDK, California rednecks?
JPL
If the LATimes and NYTimes articles are true, I wonder if they were members of the church they keep looking at? God’s Apostolic Pentecostal
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@lamh36:
Hell, yes.
p.a.
Wild speculation ( hell the press can. Why not me?): child custody issues seem to push normally ‘on the rails’ people off, without any previous oddball loner creep stuff going on.
Comrade Dread
There is really nothing to say anymore.
Two more dead bodies. Two more families crying. Friends mourning. Bodies buried. Soon to be nothing more than a statistic to most people.
Sympathies sent. So sorry. Nothing to be done. Could have happened to anyone. But it didn’t. It happened to you.
Your family just won the deadly national lottery this time. No money. Just pain to carry with you forever. Empty chair at holidays. A dinner plate left in the cupboard.
If this were a warzone, you’d get a state burial and flag, but it’s the greatest country on Earth, so you get nothing. Unless one of your neighbors brings you a casserole.
Don’t politicize it.
Don’t blame the gun.
I don’t. I blame the apologists. I blame the co-conspirators. I blame the accomplices that made it so easy for angry young men and women to arm themselves with the engine of death. Death dealing is profitable, so the cycle goes on.
A lottery with no winners, but the ones that profit from human misery.
Nothing more to say.
God damn it all.
sm*t cl*de
@Enhanced Voting Techinques:
1. Get in large conspicuous vehicle.
2. Drive.
3. ??????
4. ESCAPE.
Baud
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Based on my experience watching NCIS: Los Angeles, I agree.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@lamh36: I was also thinking survivalists, spent the T-giving weekend drinking and bitching about those fuckers at work (or the health board, or whatever the target turns out to be). As to SoCal Rednecks, I’m sure the thing exists, but as I recall the Newtown shooter lived in a house out of the pages of Martha Stewart’s magazine and he and his mother had IIRC an arsenal that would make Wayne LaPierre go weak in the knees
beltane
@JPL: It could still be workplace related. Imagine a family that’s kind of “weird” and socially isolated where the dad comes home every single evening telling tales of how his boss and coworkers are evil and conniving and out to get him. Maybe it’s possible-though not likely- to persuade one friend to go along with a paranoid fantasy, but two friends?
In any event, there will almost certainly be a lot of information about the shooters released in the near future so we will not have to speculate for much longer.
? Martin
LATimes reporting that the conference room was rented to a healthcare provider – not to health services, but they don’t have the name of the provider.
Mike J
@sm*t cl*de:
And drive around for four hours.
The Other Chuck
@lamh36: California has >10% of the population of the whole country, so I’m sure there’s all types. Don’t imagine there’s too many preppers/survivalists that close to LA though. You’ve got your trailer-in-the-mojave types in the general area, but most of the rednecks congregate in the central valley some distance away. Really, no point in getting at specific motives at this point; it seems obvious it’s a domestic issue is all — that or some really lost international terrorists.
? Martin
@The Other Chuck: Oh, yeah, there are. San Bernardino has over 2 million people. There’s plenty of peppers/survivalists in there.
Another Holocene Human
@Adam L Silverman:
OT, but I LOL’d at your description. Good news, though: Waldo Police Dept has been disbanded, Starke has really backed off (but don’t be a tool and speed when the school zone light is on) and I must say my wife used to pass through Lawtey over and over again for work without getting stopped once … again, the school is right on the state highway so you gotta obey that school zone light when it comes on. Lawtey is very blink and you’ll miss it. The state put up very clear signs warning you about the speed limit drop, though. Of the three, Waldo was always the worst and they’re done.
Anya
I wonder if the conference facility was rented to a federal government agency & the killers targeted them. Are they trained military? This is madness.
JPL
Male and female dead… Third suspect possible female.
lamh36
one male and one female suspect dead…so there was a woman?
PurpleGirl
@Mike J: Yes, we need some kitten pictures or puppy pictures. JeffreyW, help us, please.
lamh36
@JPL: one male, two females…what?
Mike J
@JPL:
Possible female? You mean transgender liberal?
Felanius Kootea
@JPL: Wait, what? Female suspects?
different-church-lady
@lamh36: Trollhattan at 30 for the win?
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36: @Felanius Kootea: Why not?
raven
Dispute at party may have sparked San Bernardino mass shooting that killed 14.
JPL
Rick Serrano.. latimes twitter
Calif shooting. FBI says terrorism is now a ” possibility.”
beltane
@Felanius Kootea: Women are very active in RW extremist groups. It’s not really that surprising.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Igor Volsky of Huffington Post is responding to GOPers’ calls for “thoughts and prayers” by listing their donations from the NRA and other gun groups
Anya
Police not ruling out “terrorism”
We know what that means.
raven
@Anya: Yea, that means they haven’t ruled it out. You gonna start bitching about the police now or wait a while?
lamh36
@Omnes Omnibus: just not usual…sadly, that these have happened often enough for there to be a “usual” circumstance…smh
different-church-lady
@Anya: Third suspect not a white male?
JPL
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): The police are now searching in Redlands.
Another Holocene Human
@Gvg: Yes, Hampton was dissolved by the Lege but nobody I knew ever got stopped by them.
Waldo is a city and they had a PD which was funded basically through tickets so they would do shit like turn the school zone lights on at random times and other fun tricks. It’s not that the sheriff (which is the COUNTY top cop) retired so much as that the incumbent Alachua County Sheriff went after Waldo for failing to pay into the combined 911 dispatch. After several years they lost the battle and dissolved the PD because they didn’t have the money to pay their 911 bill.
burritoboy
If you don’t know that quite a few very…….passionate survivalists, gun nuts, RaHoWa enthusiasts, racists, preppers, Aryan Nations, white supremacists, the income tax is unconstitutional crowd, Hammerskins and other assorted persons on the very far side of the right side of the political spectrum have long found the Inland Empire (generally, Riverside and San Bernardino Counties) a congenial place to live, you don’t know the area very well at all. Tom Metzger used to live just south of the Riverside County line, and some people call it “Northern Idaho South” (yes, with the meth labs too.)
raven
@JPL: They are searching the house in Redlands. That’s where they encountered the people in the SUV and then chased them back to Berdoo.
Anya
@raven: I am not bitching about anything. I am just feeling lost. Not sure what to say or think.
raven
@burritoboy: Not to speak of the bikers.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
jl
@burritoboy: I agree. And it being California, besides those nuts, a noticeable prevalence of all sorts of people, including Muslims, South and East Asians. Lots of Hispanics. So they must be feeling more and more skeered and threatened as time goes by.
And there are a lot of regular folks there too, so not fair to generalize. Every white non-Hispanic is a reactionary meth lab small time entrepreneur. But there are pockets with fairly high quotient of white supremacists nutcases in SoCal and Inland Empire contains some.
Some in Central Valley too, but I’m not aware of any organizations or infamous racist personalities based there, like in SoCal.
Felanius Kootea
@Omnes Omnibus: Doesn’t seem to fit the usual mass shooter MO. Live and learn.
burritoboy
We certainly shouldn’t forget the bikers either. Public Enemy Number One is big in the Inland Empire.
raven
@burritoboy: PENI!
Anne Laurie
@Mike J:
Not exactly kitten pics, but there’s a new thread upstairs!
RaflW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Igor Volsky’s tweets have been a tour de force.
Also quite instructive on how incredibly cheap the rent is. $1,000 or maybe $3,000 per cycle is the hush money.
Though it adds up. John Kline, in MN’s 2nd (suburbs of St. Paul and south) has taken over $120,000 in gun manufacturers/lobby funds in his (far too long) House occupation.
raven
Rut Ro “Syeed Farook”.That ain’t good.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Holocene Human: Glad it was good for a giggle. And good to know about the changes. I basically stopped coming down 95 when I’d come home on leave, because even though its about 110 miles shorter than 81/77/85/75, you always loose time going into, in, and coming out of DC. So the last half dozen times I drove home, I didn’t have to cut over to 75 from 95.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@raven: Interesting that some sources are saying the other two were women and others are saying that one of the other two was Farook’s brother.
Matt McIrvin
America is done now. Bye, nice knowing you all.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: Quoi?
Llelldorin
@Felanius Kootea:
I had exactly the same thought, about 15s before getting massively depressed that we have a statistically significant sample of mass shootings from which to build a model of a “usual mass shooter.”
Bobby Thomson
@raven: Haven’t seen that name anywhere other than right wing blogs. I’ve also seen another name there that is the same as the Turkish prime minister, so taking both names with a pound of salt.
ETA: never mind. Yeah, this’ll be bad.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Bobby Thomson: MSNBC has said that they’re coming up with that name when searching the address of the house the police robot is currently poking at.
jl
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: That is same story I see on NBC news website. Also, authorities believe that the Farook person, whoever he is and whatever his involvement, or non-involvement, is a US citizen.
different-church-lady
@jl: Well, if he is involved, I’d say he’s been assimilated into American culture quite smoothly.
/dark snark
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I guess the reactionary propagandist is just telling up how Fox News will frame it, no matter what the facts are.
yet another jeff
@different-church-lady: Was wondering if that name had come up for any of y’all…saw it on a wingnut facebook post, then couldn’t find anything non-wingnut sourced in Google. Yay…furriners can be wingnut rednecks too…Murca!
beltane
@srv: And he was an environmental health specialist which also makes him some kind of hippie.
jl
@beltane: People of all backgrounds and religions can go nuts in a ‘local beef’. Which is what this looks like now, but need to wait to see what further investigation finds.
schrodinger's cat
OT: Grand Wingnut Unification theory
Guess what, husband kitteh got into a big Whatsapp fight with his family group. One of his cousins sent him a doctored video of scary Syrian refugees. Its source: Brietbart News.
This is exactly the reason why I have avoided Facebook and being a part of whatsapp group. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, besides I don’t want to argue with people I see may be once in two years.
ETA: Forgot to add that the wingnut relative is in India.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
so he’s a county employee ? O’Donnell said he and his brother are believed to have been shooters. This gets weirder and weirder. I think a witness just said all the people killed/targeted were in “a conference room”. This would be one weirdly specific terrorist attack
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@srv: Former employee? Or privacy laws limiting the available data?
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: So, what we know now is that it looks like workplace violence, over a ‘local beef’, with evidence that it was committed by a US citizen with a common Middle Eastern name.
Patrick
@schrodinger’s cat:
It is funny how they are so scared of Syrian refugees, when the proliferation of guns kills so many many more people in our country.
It’s like the Iraq war all over again. Iraq had nothing to do with 911, but let’s attack them anyway.
schrodinger's cat
@Patrick: Why the hell should an Indian living in Bangalore be scared of Syrian refugees? Modi Bhakts make even less sense than the average wingnut here.
RandomMonster
@jl:
I’m trying to figure it out though. Typical workplace violence isn’t going to involve multiple suspects. Very few people can have a grievance and get other people to put their lives on the line to seek revenge.
jl
@RandomMonster: Things are obviously very confused right now and no one knows anything for sure about why and how it unfolded.
Mister Papercut
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Individual with the same name was conducting inspections into at least mid-October.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@RandomMonster: Disgruntled employee whose hothead, born-again brother convinces him that not only are they all against him, but they’re all against him because he’s a Muslim?
ETA: @jl: and this, too, also, as well
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@RandomMonster:
Family members.
different-church-lady
@jl:
True, but nonetheless it all proves that [insert preconceived notions about world here].
RandomMonster
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, maybe. It just seems a stretch to me, but…I guess we’ll see.
Heliopause
@jl:
You’re wasting your energy. There will be enormous pressure on Obama to drop bombs that will only make things worse. There will be an acceleration of hate crimes against muslims and anybody vaguely associated with them in the hive mind. The chances that someone like Trump or Cruz could be elected have been increased. There will be pogroms.
Sorry, I’m a glass half empty guy.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
As far as the potential involvement of female suspects goes, remember that it was a hetero couple that decided to kill themselves some cops at that Wal-Mart (I know they were Bundy fans, but I can’t remember which state the murders happened in).
Ruckus
The only thing we do know is that some one was willing to get what looks like two other people to gear up and shoot a bunch of people. Notice that I didn’t say arm themselves, they geared up, they intended to kill and they figured they might have to shoot it out with some one, likely cops. Even if this particular shooting wasn’t premeditated, they were ready to do something and risk a lot for it. This is war zone thinking, not civilians living in the city thinking.
Omnes Omnibus
@Heliopause: Giving in to hysteria is seldom helpful. YMMV.
Heliopause
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m as far from hysterical as one can get. It’s my co-citizens that concern me.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Las Vegas, IIRC.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
*sigh* Still can’t edit.
Yep. Las Vegas.
Omnes Omnibus
@Heliopause: Suggesting that pogroms are coming strikes me as hysterical.
Gvg
@Another Holocene Human: I live a few blocks from one of the former Hampton speed traps. They were very active and gave lots of tickets to the point of preventing my sister getting sleep when she worked night shift because of the sirens. I never got stopped. They avoided tickets to locals because locals could vote them out which meant when they made a mistake, you could call and complain and they would cancel the ticket. They got my sister once and a coworker called and got it cancelled instantly.
Triple a paid for the billboards warning about the Waldo speed trap for decades. The highway patrol took over the Waldo offices and fancy vehicles for a few weeks. I think they audited everything. Then they disappeared and tickets aren’t happening from what I can see. They have only been a legend of bad policing most of my life.
sharl
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): You’re probably thinking of the homicidal married couple in Nevada. That was a case where a good guy with a gun apparently didn’t account for the possible presence of a bad gal with a gun behind him.
ETA: Beat to it by SRGoWH…
GoBlue72
@beltane: Or, more likely, a restaurant food safety inspector.
Heliopause
A guy with a muslimy name is now attached to this atrocity. Sorry, my pollyanna-ish friends, this is America, not the planet Vulcan. Logic does not rule in this quadrant. Game. Set. Match.
Okay, okay, there’s one chance; no muslim does anything remotely like this between now and next November. If there’s anything that describes Americans better than “lovers of violence and collective punishment” it’s “short attention span.” So maybe this will have been forgotten by then. But just a small chance.
different-church-lady
@Heliopause: Half of them have already “forgotten” the guy with the American sounding name from four days ago.
Memory can be a highly selective thing.
Dmbeaster
The guy recently went to Saudi Arabia for his wife, who is apparently the dead female with him in the SUV. Any bets on whether the two of them fell in love with that qiaint version of Islam promoted by the Saudis?
tybee
@Mike J:
just a normal weekday here in the hood.
Another Holocene Human
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nice of O’Reilly to clarify that for us.
Another Holocene Human
@Gvg: Sounds like highway patrol was conducting an audit. That territory will be Alachua County Sheriff Dept territory now, just like in Hawthorne, which also used to be a speed trap before they disbanded their PD. ASO did pull me over there once, the trick signs fooled me, but I guess I wasn’t the one they were looking for because they walked off without a word and then got annoyed when I didn’t drive off right away … look, I’m gonna need a verbal dismissal before I drive away from a Klieg light and a swarm of cops.
Sorry about what happened to you and yours in Hampton. That’s fucked up.
Another Holocene Human
@Dmbeaster: Really? Sounds a lot more like he got terminated and wanted revenge. New wifey expects an income.
Tripod
Workplace beef. Went in to check for target then returned.