San Bernardino shooter Syed Rizwan Farook was in touch over the phone and via social media with more than one international terrorism subject who the FBI were already investigating, law enforcement officials said.
It appears that Farook was radicalized, which contributed to his motive, though other things — like workplace grievances — may have also played a role, other law enforcement sources said.
Tailgunner Ted is on the case. If only President Obama would say “radical Islamic terrorism,” we could defeat Osama. Oh wait…
I just can’t today with these dumb motherfuckers. Open thread.
Well, I think the first call of business should be for California to ban immigrants from Illinois, where he was born.
Given that we have an enormous security state that can and does scan every frigging email or tweet, I gotta ask, how’s that workin’ out for us?
Aside from catching the occasional delusional sad sack I think it needs to be pointed out how colossally stupid the strategy of “hardening the target” has been.
Was the FBI plant radicalizing these guys? That does seem to be the way it often goes…
@? Martin: I just moved to California from Illinois, but I grew up in Massachusetts. Will I have to be deported?
Tailgunner Ted? When did he serve in the military? Let’s not give him credit for the stuff he didn’t do.
ETA: I know the nickname has something to do his with resemblance to Joe McCarthy. I just think it makes the weasel sound heroic.
If you had any decency you would self-deport.
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m giving him credit for being the spiritual twin of the raving, paranoid demagogue Joe McCarthy, to whom he also bears an eerie physical resemblance.
According to Trump he doesn’t understand what is wrong with Obama. He said there is something we don’t know about about Obama. Well the audience certainly knew what was ‘wrong’ with Obama and what it is that we ‘don’t’ know. And as note upstring Cruz is beating the war drums and invoking the magical phrase ‘radical Islam’.
This is goinmg to get very very very ugly very fast.
@Steeplejack (phone): Good thing I don’t have any decency then.
@dmsilev: Yes, to Vermont. Where hippie commies like you belong.
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
Now the terrorists are just fucking with us by engaging in the wholly American pastime of shooting up one’s coworkers.
It was just another case of workplace jihad. We need to ban pipe bombs.
funny how the authorities and media never refer to guys like dylan roof or robert dear as having ‘become radicalized’.
@dmsilev: Yes, having lived in Illinois it’s likely you’ve been radicalized.
And per Donald Trump, apparently we now need to kill the grandmother and the 6 month old to send a message:
@chopper: Well, I think the reasoning is that Muslims are such moral individuals that they could never commit an ordinary crime unless they were influenced by others.
@schrodinger’s cat: ‘tailgunner joe’ was the name of a movie about McCarthy and is a derisive term for the Senator that originated from his false claim to have been a tail gunner on American bombers during World War II.
@dmsilev: it depends. How big are your calf muscles? Would you say roughly cantelope-sized?
The city of Chennai (Madras) is under a deluge of water, highest recorded rainfall ever. Of course climate change is a myth and all we can do is offer prayers.
Wonder if it might have been detected but for the greatest hero in the history of anything anywhere…
You may now commence calling me names. ;-)
Is there no end to The Donald’s obscenities?
@? Martin: As an Illinois resident we kind of are anal about guns. We were the last state to have a concealed carry permit. SCOTUS ruled on it. Forced it on us.
I’m sure Benito Mussolini is smiling in Hell, as Donald Trump trots out all of his old greatest hits….
@chopper: White guys don’t get radicalized. They get “angry” and “frustrated” at having “lost their traditional role” in a “changing” America.
And listening to endless hours of hate venom from radical clerics like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter and FoxNews has nothing to do with it.
@Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader:
Sigh… well, brace yourselves, here it comes…
That said, they have no fix — just screaming panic and hate. Not even most of the jokers like Trump are going to advocate sending a massive US army into the ME. That brings it to police work and intelligence gathering as well as to some extent, the American Islamic community policing itself for people who are getting lost or disgruntled. It isn’t “fair” but they will have to avoid statements like his brother in law gave saying that “he had no idea” that his brother-in law was thinking about such things. The American Islamic community is going to have to pay very close attention, even as they balance the need for everyone to have a zone of privacy. It IS scary because the danger to our freedom through exercises to “keep us safe” is very real and I don’t know that we have many answers or other options. The orks will be on us always to make us prisoners of their fear and hatred..
Mr Obama must have a calendar of the next year and a red liner mark he puts through every day, counting the time. If he gets any skinnier he will disappear….
Syed Farook was a peaceful, law-abiding gun owner right up until the moment his spree killing started.
If he’s from Illinois and wanted to shoot people, why didn’t he just join the Chicago PD?
@Amir Khalid: no, and now he’ll be forced to dig deeper.
Yep. Just a total coincidence that after Dr. George Tiller became the target of Bill O’Reilly’s televised venom, there were two attempts on his life, with the second one succeeding.
Lone wolves. Not reflective of the “pro-life” movement as a whole, etc.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@schrodinger’s cat: How about Failgunner Ted?
Something nice for the ladies (and some others).
Because we all need a non-political interlude.
(Borderline NSFW; depends on the workplace.)
ot but sometimes the FSM intervenes on the side of the good guys –
It won’t bring back the 29 but if this pond scum dies in a very small jail cell I guess it is the best we can do.
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Better!
Samurai Jack is coming back. So there’s some good news I didn’t expect.
It also speaks volumes about how little we know about each other — the isolation in our modern American culture. No one knows anything as people live their lives in life threatening anger, rage and alienation. Whether we are speaking of the white or Islamic alienated — or for that matter, blacks or Hispanics, our aloneness and inability to truly count on each other to be safe and cared for — is destroying us — all of us. We cannot allow ourselves to bare our throats to each other and be able to count on mercy. It is either kill or be killed — law of the jungle and somehow, we must change that. The recent work on the declining health of working class and middle aged whites is a marker of this trend line. Somehow, they must be rescued from their anger and find the real cure to what ails them — which is banding together with other working class people to make ourselves safe. There is no safety when everyone is at war…. Without safety there can be no trust and no energy to build anything.
Sigh. I suppose it would be too much to ask if he was able to purchase his firearms legally. Who am I kidding – the Republicans are totally against radical Islam but absolutely for the rights of the radicalized to purchase AR-15’s. Keeps the gun manufacturer’s in perpetual business.
@Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader:
Exactly. Farook may have been radicalized but shooting up one’s co-workers is, to quote Abbie Hoffman, “as American as apple pie.”
He was only convicted on a misdemeanor, won’t spend a day in prison. At least according to JC.
@LWA: I don’t know. If you think about it, it’s really kind of remarkable that we haven’t had more terrorist attacks in a country of this size, which played such an out-sized role in fucking up the Middle East and in which weapons are so easy to come by.
I’m not advocating panopticism — I find some of the NSA’s actions troubling. But the fact that the feds routinely roll up the sad sacks you mentioned might signal that the privacy invasions have an effect. I’m not saying it’s worth it, just that the fact that a few slip past the net doesn’t mean the net is completely worthless and ineffective.
Made some adjustments to the blockquote and regular post paragraphs. Not sure, but tell me what you think in the Site Maintenance post/page under About Balloon Juice menu.
Your patience and feedback are appreciated!
@Felanius Kootea: I heard on NPR this morning that all the gun purchases were legal, but they didn’t buy all the guns themselves. The police were investigating the person or people who bought the other guns. It’s still so hard to believe how easy it is to buy those kinds of weapons and equipment.
@AliceBlue: Shooting up coworkers is explicitly a privilege of politically disaffected middle age white males. We will not tolerate this incursion!
The answer is gonna be “our security state has its hands tied by political correctness that doesn’t let it profile. If we REALLY want to make a difference, we need to take the gloves completely off and…” It’s anyone’s guess how that sentence ends.
I guess the resettlement camps for Muslims is a go.
Another Holocene Human
@? Martin: Too late: Chris Dorner.
Another Holocene Human
@AliceBlue: It was a cherry pie. Tastes change!
Foreign terrorists coming here, so that their second or third generation descendents can shoot people full of holes, stealing all those bloodied bodies from traditional ‘Merkan Terrorists taking their Holy Second Freedomz and Country back! Tree of Liberty is being watered by outsourced foreign labor, grumble grumble.
It’s actually a lot more American than apple pie. Lots of other countries serve apple pie, but shooting up your workplace is a uniquely American ritual.
It is strange that we keep hearing about how Iran is the head of the snake and our biggest enemy in the Middle East, yet no one ever seems to go to Iran and gets radicalized for attacks on the rest of the world.
@D58826: Not jsut a false claim–he lied about the number of missions flown (as an observer) and forged documents.
“McCarthy served (as an intelligence briefing officer) a total tour of duty in the Marines lasting thirty months, or 2½ years, from August 1942 to February 1945, and he held the rank of captain by the time he was discharged in April 1945. He flew twelve combat missions as a gunner-observer, earning the nickname of “Tail-Gunner Joe” in the course of one of these missions.
“He later claimed 32 missions in order to qualify for a Distinguished Flying Cross, which he received in 1952. McCarthy publicized a letter of commendation which he claimed had been signed by his commanding officer and countersigned by Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, then Chief of Naval Operations. However, it was revealed that McCarthy had written this letter himself, in his capacity as intelligence officer. A “war wound” that McCarthy made the subject of varying stories involving airplane crashes or anti-aircraft fire was in fact received aboard ship during a ceremony for sailors crossing the equator for the first time.”
Per the Beeb,
So these folks were raring for something. Given his travels it’s premature to rule out junior jihadi status but like the elder Tsarnaev brother, the people who might have stated their intentions aren’t around.
Given their getaway I wonder whether they had further plans?
@Mike J: bummer. why did they even waste the time or money. The money would have been better spent on helping the victims families
I see the corresponding evil to be the possibility that there was a network of people of like mind. The guns are a the violent tracer for the intent to do the ultimate harm implemented by motivated human beings. THAT to me is the scariest part — the gun at the gun show or on the gun shop counter first “comes to life” in the hatred filled heart of a brother or sister we cannot reach… Our desire for gun control is a proxy for wanting to influence the many who we cannot seem to reach, heal or convince to trust. To me, that is what we need to fix. Without bringing most of us to a sense of safety with each other, we will not get rid of or control the guns…
@trollhattan: Waiting for the wingnuts to call for rounding up everybody with a few thousand rounds out in the garage, But I’m not holding my breath.
@tazj: Get your guns today!
The elephant in the room that nobody ever wants to talk about is our “friend” the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
You can draw a straight line from the Arabian peninsula to pretty much every anti-western Islamist terror group, but the KSA continues to be treated as a valued friend.
One of the greatest strategic mistakes the US made in the 20th century was not throwing our weight behind the democratic government of Iran, rather than the Shah and the theocratic potentates of the House of Saud.
Normally, it might. But since we’re averaging a mass shooting every few days, we only have to wait a few more before something else eclipses this and becomes the shooting de jour.
And then Paul Ryan can lecture us on mental health spending fixing everything.
And voting against it.
Already mentioned it in Site Maintenance area but wanted to more publicly give out a THANK YOU to Alain for changing the dashed lines between comments to solid.
Much pleasanter, visually.
Syed Farook’s known travels to the Middle East consist of going on the Haj two years ago. It’s a duty for every Muslim who is physically and financially able, and in itself can’t be regarded as suspicious.
Thats it, Shut it down. The internets have been won for the day. I recommend this for Comment of the Year consideration.
Paul in KY
I personally don’t see the problem in calling something Al Qaida or DAESH or lone wolf cowardly murderers (who evidently did it for their twisted version of ‘Islam’), ‘radical Islamic Terrorism’. Just like the Planned Parenthood POS & Tim McVeigh, etc. etc. should and can be called ‘radical Christian terrorism’. Just because we (people of Christian background) have our own, doesn’t mean we can’t label these what they appear to be.
IMO, anyone who thinks it is OK to kill non-combatant infidels, due to some perceived oppression of Muslims somewhere, is a ‘radical Islamic terrorist’. Now, their version of ‘Islam’ is not the correct one, IMO, but they have had people teaching them that this is OK & those people self-identified as Muslim.
Same as the ‘Christian’ ones who get riled up by some false prophet of a preacher.
Paul in KY
@Matt McIrvin: Good point, Matt. Hope that’s not true, but it could be.
@Face: Actually I should have been a bit more precise. The entire political environment, esp. the presidential campaign and the ISIS issue, is going to get very very very ugly very very very fast.
Paul in KY
@D58826: They need to take him into custody. Someone with his wealth & mindset will have contemplated fleeing.
@AliceBlue: H Rap Brown
Paul in KY
@WordPress Developers: Alain, would there be a way to get an old feature where we could see who had posted a recent comment to a particular thread? Used to show up on right side of page 1.
Paul in KY
@GregB: Maybe another Mid East country, a Sunni one floating on an ocean of money, pays to have that meme disseminated….
Soshialist union thug
@srv: Obama shows some class on the international stage.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
What I’ve read is that experts here and in the broader Muslim world (including our allies and “allies”) have said this is a propaganda victory for their recruitment. Like invading a country for no reason, or calling this a “clash of civilizations” or suggesting that we only admit Christian refugees or we torture them just because they deserve it or….
Vlad may be stamping his size 5 shoes about this, but the fact remains that he has invaded a grand total of 0 NATO member states, while swiping swatches of land from 2 different non-NATO neighbors.
Joining seems a no-brainer for the neighbors of a certain revanchist nation that considers the fall of the Soviet Union a “tragedy”.
But haven’t we been told, over and over and over, that there isn’t anything that can be done about the use of guns in a situation like this. All of the guns were bought legally. There hasn’t been any law proposed that would have stopped this from happening, aren’t we helpless in the face of this violence? *sarcasm included*
On a serious note if he had been in contact with people that the authorities were already watching does that mean he was on their radar also, and they missed him? What does that say about how good what we’re already doing works? They were collecting everything and couldn’t stop this, what more do they want?
I’d welcome much more spending on mental health spending. Unfortunately Ryan isn’t all that interested in that issue either.
I don’t understand why house Democrats aren’t turning to Ryan and saying something like: “While we don’t agree that deficiencies in our mental health system are the only cause of gun violence, we agree that it’s a contributing factor. That’s why we are asking you to join us in passing the Mental Health Reform act which pumps $x billion dollars in to mental health services to help stem the tide of gun violence.”
At least call him on this bullshit.
This could present a good test to determine what the wingers care about more. Either we do something about gun control (War on the 2nd amendment) or cancel all office christmas parties (War on Christmas)?
@BobS: Is that you, Bob in Portland?
@Paul in KY: I disagree. Obama, Hillary Clinton and even GWB didn’t avoid inserting the word “Islamic” into the description because of political correctness; they understood that it needlessly implicated a religion with a billion-plus adherents whom we NEED to defeat the fundamentalist nutbags.
Even if everyone agreed to call nuts like Eric Rudolph and that cretin who shot up the Planned Parenthood “radical Christian terrorists,” it wouldn’t be equivalent because Christianity is the dominant religion in the US. The phrase wouldn’t have the same power to marginalize people.
And I believe Brown said “cherry pie” not apple.
Mental health, not spending.
@dr. luba: No. Did you read Parry’s article?
@? Martin: I’m originally from Illinois, but I moved here from MA. I even have a green card now! Can I please stay?
Paul in KY
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Don’t the non-nutty Muslims want to be distinguished from the nutty ones?
If they are using twisted interpretations of various Suras to excuse their atrocities, isn’t that some form of ‘Crazy/Radical/Nutty/Evil Muslim Terrorism’?
Just like Christian Identity POS McVeigh & the other fucker whose name escapes me are/were ‘Crazy Christian Terrorists’. Would it be better if you put ‘Muslim’ in quotes, as these thugs are not true Muslims?
Is it because over here there will never be uttered the words ‘radical Christian Terrorism’?
@Darkrose: Illinois to Massachusetts to California? Clearly a Commie sleeper agent.
Enhanced Voting Techinques
@? Martin: It’s those Middle West refuges with their fruite and jello buffets that are messing this state up.
@dedc79: Bigger conflict for wingers: Does being Muslim abrogate your 2nd Amendment right?
We don’t know that they missed him. The Republicans have made sure that even a known terrorist is allowed to buy assault rifles for use against American civilians. If al-Baghdadi himself were buying an assault rifle to shoot up a church or school down the street the authorities couldn’t stop him.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Strangely, if we don’t do anything at all, that is also cast as a victory and winning is the greatest recruiting tool as well. Honestly, if I weren’t starting to get interested in ways I could make money in the right wing gravy train (I’m not too proud to grift), terrorism might be a good second choice grift. Whatever one does, one wins.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: If they are doing it for religious reasons, it needs to be noted, so that the true/good adherents of that religion can work on cleaning out the vermin & also doing PR on how these nutwads are completely wrong in their interpretations, etc. (PR to non-practitioners of their religion & even more important, to practitioners of their religion so they will know that these evil ideas are completely at odds with their religion & are false).
Needs to be done on Christian side as well, just as much as on Islamic/Jewish side (those settlers practice a warped form of Judaism, IMO).
Another Holocene Human
@trollhattan: Like elder Tsarnaev, don’t think they ever found the mysterious red
priestArmenian imam who mysteriously radicalized Tamerlan, but when you look at the shitpile that was his personal life, his jihad against the Boston Marathon makes a lot more sense.
Remember that guy (oh god there’s been so many) who killed his ex coworkers on air and it came out he had weird anger/interpersonal issues?
Another Holocene Human
@Elie: Gun control, by which is meant gun tracking, would allow police to efficiently link handguns used in homicides to the persons who wielded them.
The main purpose of gun shows is to send a flood of handguns into distressed urban areas to be used as untraceable murder tools and keep those communities oppressed.
Hence the problem with the “peaceful, law-abiding, gun owner” canard. Unless Farook had a prior criminal record, there was nothing stopping him as US citizen from legally stockpiling all the guns and ammo he could want.
There are no reports of Farook having any prior run-ins with the law, and having extremist religious beliefs is protected by the First Amendment. Until you act on your extremist beliefs in an illegal way, you can be both a gun nut and an ideological nut all you want.
@Paul in KY: Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that people who rave about “infidels,” and “crusades,” etc., while murdering unarmed people are basing their hate on an interpretation of religion? I don’t think non-radicals of any stripe need to hear “radical Islamic terrorism” uttered by Barack Obama to twig to that fact.
Ted Cruz, et al, want to force Democrats to use their pet phrase to prove some silly point and make themselves look tougher. Democrats like PBO, who so far has a much better track record of actually doing something about terrorism perpetrated by radical nutbars as opposed to gabbing about it, doesn’t use the phrase because it offends and endangers non-radical Muslims. It’s analogous to the “thoughts and prayers” thing, IMO — form over substance.
Sometimes all I can do is shake my head and think, “I don’t know and I don’t understand.” The horror of San Bernardino just makes me feel sad and horrified and mystified and a little bit terrorized. I know that statistically the chance of me being killed or menaced by a mass shooting is incredibly small, but a long time ago in my life that seems far away now, I would have never had that little bit of terror creeping down deep in my thoughts and feelings.
I guess yesterday’s attack maybe shows that education and economics can’t solve everything. According to what I’ve read, Farook was educated and making more than $50,000 a year. That doesn’t mean I don’t think those factors don’t make a difference, but they aren’t magic that solves everything.
Before I ran at the Philadelphia Marathon, approximately one week after the Paris attack, it was so bizarre that I had to be patted down and my post-race bag checked. What the fuck? I just wanted to run a race that day, I wanted to turn the over 1700 miles I had trained mostly solo into a good racing effort amongst crowds of people cheering the racers on and those of us running through a landmark city of this particular democracy that was born in the United States. Yet this seems to be the new reality, a lurking if unlikely threat that a small number people who somehow become radicalized by ideology or emotional stress or mental illness who decide to take out their grievances by killing large numbers of people.
It’s also strangely bizarre how we’ve now reached a point where if we were to follow the pleas of gun nuts that it’s too soon to politicize a tragedy, another mass shooting will likely occur before the proposed time of decorum expires.
Farook’s father who had “no idea” what would drive his son to do such horrible things, was cited in divorce papers by Farook’s mother as extremely violent and abusive. Attacked her while kids were present. Even dropped a TV on her.
A lifetime of physical and emotional abuse, left untreated and unaddressed, can radicalize any child. Note current US prison population, where majority of inmates got no help and plenty of childhood in-home violence.
If the GOP would like to devote billions to stopping abusive parents from attacking their children – or each other – and helping victims throughout their lifetime to recover, that would be a good thing.
On the “let’s forget the white guy who murdered at Planned Parenthood” front, NY Times not helping with their “Counterterrorism Part of F.B.I. Inquiry” headline.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: Evidently there are some.. On our side as well. We over here are not going to stop nutwads who use selected excerpts of the Quran or Hadith as a convenient reason to kill a bunch of non-believers.
We need the non-nutty members of that religion to stop them. The labeling might give them an impetus to expand those efforts.
Same can apply to Christianity. Pres. Obama can & should comment on the twisted ideas of nutty-Christianity that drive these PP & other murderers.
Am leaving work, will respond tomorrow morn.
@Another Holocene Human:
No, I get that and support it. That said, the root cause of gun violence — violence in general resides in deeper social, spiritual and psychological problems. Boils down to feeling unsafe and needing to eliminate threats. The real threats are not amenable to violence, but our people do not feel able to deal with the real threats which are economic, health and self respect oriented — they feel powerless to fix their lives. That the workplace is a common place for that expression o violence, shouldn’t be a surprise. When you can’t fix losing your job or having good relations with your co-workers where you feel respected, you can at least eliminate the evidence of the problem, right?
The American powder keg is based on tremendous loneliness, alienation and powerlessness. We CAN fix it through grass roots, political and social engagement but no one is really trying including the Democrats. We are not talking to people about their real lives and real needs and they feel abandoned– white, black and brown. This is by no means just happening in the US, but we have the largest scale of economic and ethnic diversity. The Republican and right winged approach has not been to help solve the issue, but to convert it to a war for short term political power but a war that cannot be won either for white people or the nation as a whole. It is suicide. Democrats must work to find the approach to speak — even if only on tiny tiny scale, to poor and working class whites as well as blacks and browns. The alienation, the sense of helping each other will have to be built slowly after so much hate for a long time, but its the only way. I know its cool to talk about violence being as American as apple pie, but we should not allow ourselves such cynicism anymore. We must do something about it and it rests with all of us. We ARE our brother’s keepers.
Farook had been in contact with foreign Jihadis, so he could have been on the no-fly watchlist. The government can and does restrict people for contacting terrorist groups.
@goblue72: So, is that a symmetic property? I went California -> Iowa -> Illinois. I’m hoping that makes me even more dangerous as I’ve got those suspect left-coast influences early (overlaid on a multi-generational Illinois heritage).
@MazeDancer: I have found Firstpost’s reporting on Indian politics to be flawed and extremely biased in favor of India’s Hindu right. I would like to see this corroborated before I believe it.
I would imagine that they would allow the contact but track it. You don’t want them to “disappear” from view but know what they may be up to. Problem is this may be hundreds of individuals – or more. The Islamic community can do much here to be aware of their members who are becoming disgruntled or are having social or economic problems. Having a community or being a part of a community is a marker for health and happiness…
@Elie: They don’t interfere with contact per se, it’s just one of the indicators they use to decide to put people on the no-fly list. Back in the Bush days, they were VERY eager to put people on the watchlist – Teddy Kennedy was on it, as was my mother (trust me, that’s laughable). Obama has made thing less crazy but it’s still possible Farook was on the watch lists.
@dr. luba: A fellow traveler, I believe. BobS was around in parallel with the pre-banned BiPpy.
@Betty: One major problem is that they are dumb motherfuckers every. damn. day.
@D58826: According to Trump he doesn’t understand what is wrong with Obama. He said there is something we don’t know about about Obama.
Trump is a deplorable slimeball. And the #1 candidate for the GOP.
Even so, there is no constitutionally protected right to commercial airline flight.
At present, the only people that are considered “prohibited persons” under Federal statute for the purchase, sale, or transfer of firearms in interstate commerce are the following groups:
Convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; fugitive from justice; unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance; adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution; illegally or unlawfully in the United States; discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; been a citizen of the United States, and have renounced U.S. citizenship; subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
Well prayers…and boats…
Really wonder how the city is going to recover and how many people ultimately end up being displaced because their homes are flooded.
You Tube videos of the flooding
Yes, and the only reason the list is so short (and unenforceable anyway due to the gun show loophole) is that the Republicans and the NRA want bad guys to be able to buy guns, to frighten the rest of us. That’s what needs to be fixed.
@Elie: Being a part of a community may also just be a marker for cult membership. Also, will other religious communities will have a responsibility for monitoring all co-religionists, active or not? As a, well, I once considered myself a mentally healthy non-joiner, be required to declare an affiliation with a specific community so that they can check up and monitor on my financial well-being and strict conformity to statisical norms for mental adjustment?
@Gravenstone: “fellow traveler”? I was under the impression that Dr Luba was being critical of McCarthy upthread — I didn’t realize some people here would be wanting to emulate him. Holdover Cheney apologists from John Cole’s pre-Schiavo Balloon Juice?
@Betty Cracker: Eerie resemblance also to Jason Clarke, who convincingly portrayed a sadistic corrections person in Death Race.
Once I found out that he worked with the folks that were shot, sadly, I just filed this under ‘ Post Office Rampage.’
You can miss me about him being ‘ radicalized’.
This was just a workplace shooting, the only difference is that his wife joined him in the Bonnie & Clyde killing spree.
Another Holocene Human
Another Holocene Human
@Paul in KY: Religion can’t police religion. You need an independent state for that.
Like that Duggar mess. All those Christians, all that deviance. If the state hadn’t weakly and imperfectly intervened all those years ago, it would have been even worse.
Another Holocene Human
@Elie: It’s not just about fear and alienation, though. It’s about entitlement. There’s a much uglier streak there that is driving a lot of these multiple shooting incidents.
Here is the San Bernardino Sun on Farook’s abusive dad. The divorce paper’s were obtained by the AP. (AP posted it far down in a longer article.)
Did not know the other place’s unreliability, thanks for heads up. Just linked them because was first longer article I saw noting the AP source. Will avoid them in future.
@Paul in KY: I’ll outsource my response to President Obama:
American Muslims and non-radical Muslims abroad seem to prefer that we not yoke their religion to terrorist groups, just as the Christians who post on this board probably wouldn’t appreciate being lumped in with a heavily armed and murderous version of Westboro Baptist Church. Personally, I’ve got about as much use for any religion as my chickens have for a calculator, but I try not to pointlessly offend people who have done no harm — particularly when doing so would be counterproductive.
@boatboy_srq: If Cruz were the object of an ambush makeover by an unusually skilled team of stylists, maybe…
Supposedly he returned from there with his new wife in tow, so maybe it was a travel agency two-fer: “Go on Haj, get new wife!”
@Paul in KY: On the Planned Parenthood shooting, the Republicans have gone straight to blaming the victims, something that would be considered by Democrats and Republicans alike as the rankest sort of fringe Ward Churchill-ism if it were about US foreign policy instigating Islamist terrorism.
Look what you made him do!
(Seen via Joe Betsill on G+.)
Another Holocene Human
@Fair Economist: Bad white guys with clean records buy the guns. They then traffic them to bad black and brown guys (with or without records), cash on the table. The guns are then used in homicides.
Most of the gun control fight has actually been over keeping simple records of who sold what to whom. This is what the NRA has fought tooth and nail. They WANT guns to be flooding into the hands of “those people” to commit homicides. They want “the real killer” to stay uncaught, killing more people and terrorizing the community. This is their FUCKING business strategy!
@BobS: One can disapprove of Macarthyism and Putinism both.
Very good questions that reflect a very dark option. But what do we do. I do not think we need to coerce information from people using laws but what do we do? Certainly the answer cannot be – well nothing?
I don’t have the answer but I think I am willing to think about reasonable trade-offs — to have an open discussion about it rather than seal it off as being somehow beyond fair consideration. A lot hangs in the balance on both sides of the equation. Yes, we want our freedom and sense of privacy and to feel we are safe from unfair scrutiny. Yet, people attracted to these ideologies also use these freedoms to imperil us. There must be a step between sticking our heads in the sand and hoping for the best that these people aren’t going to kill us — which breeds its own suspicions independent of laws — and completely turning into a surveillance state where we snoop on each other and sometimes, (yes, because we know it will happen), bear false witness and impugn someone who is innocent? What do you think?
@Another Holocene Human:
It’s also why the NRA worked overtime to get Congress (including a prominent Dem candidate), to legislate broad civil immunity for the firearms industry.
@dr. luba: Would you please define “Putinism”, and point to an example of it on this thread? By the way, did you read the Robert Parry article I linked to? Is he a ‘Putinist’?
Bloody hell, somebody call the Orkin man.
Yawn. There’s no American interest to be served by any of this. Not even remaining in NATO.
@srv: According to antiwar.com, this particular pickup by NATO isn’t going to threaten Russia much.
@Betty Cracker: I completely understand the concept. Unfortunately, it is a bit hard to take when you have governments like the Saudis, which, while ostensibly “non-radical,” still have laws that have the death penalty for apostates, other barbaric punishments and treat women horribly. Are the Saudis who are funding the vast majority of terrorist acts in the world really going to be offended by the use of the term radical Islam. Is “Radical and Perverted Islam” ok?
So are we allowed to observe that a ramp-up in anti-Muslim rhetoric by public figures seems to have been followed by violence committed by unstable people (both against Muslims and by them), or is that another of those things conservatives want us to agree not to notice?
It’s becoming very clear to me that we can either have unfettered free speech OR unfettered access to deadly weapons, but not both. Guns are the enemy of free speech. Which side will win?
@Punchy: I agree. This was perfectly arranged to include several strands of the present BS parade.
I think we have had a light bulb moment in the presidential election. Chris Christie KNEW as soon as he started watching the events yesterday that it was terrorism even before we know who was the shooter. Surely we want a president who can read the future. It just makes it so much easier that Christie knows these things before any one else and from 3000 miles away at that. Since he is so good at it why didn’t he warn the folks in San Bernardino? If the Obama hatred digs any deeper these people will fall thru China and into outer space.
@schrodinger’s cat: I have a buddy there right now. Looks Katrina-esque. There are jets at the airport with their engines under water.
You’ll understand if I don’t take the above as the authoritative final word on the matter.
Ari Fleischer, who was so helpful in leading up to 9/11 wants to increase public surveillance but not gun control. If we have proper surveillance we can stop these attacks. Get ready to have to show your papers even when you walk out to pick up your mail.
And both sides are doing the politicizing. You know Hillary accuses Trump of treason.
The San Bernardino shootings sound more like Islamist jihadist insurgency than workplace violence. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/19/isis-is-just-one-of-a-full-blown-global-jihadist-insurgency.html
CNN trying real hard to be Fox News:
Headline: A Link to Terrorists
Syed Rizwan Farook — who along with his wife, Tashfeen Malik, carried out the San Bernardino shooting massacre — apparently was radicalized and in touch with people being investigated by the FBI for international terrorism, law enforcement officials said Thursday.
Farook’s apparent radicalization contributed to his role in the mass shooting of 14 people Wednesday during a holiday party for the San Bernardino County health department, where Farook worked, sources said.
Later on in story:
Yet Farook himself had talked by phone and on social media with more than one person being investigated for terrorism, law enforcement officials said.
The communications were “soft connections” in that they weren’t frequent, one law enforcement official said. It had been a few months since Farook’s last back-and-forth with these people, who officials said were not considered high priority.
As to what role those communications played in the San Bernardino carnage, the official said, “We don’t know yet what they mean.”
Added Bowdich, from the FBI: “That is the big question for us: What is the motivation for this?”
Emphasis mine. So CNN leads with anonymous sources saying that the suspects were radicalized and that radicalization lead to the attacks. But later on, named sources say the communications were a while ago, soft and that they still don’t know what they mean or what the motivation was for the attack. (read elsewhere that another non-anonymous source – on those soft communications – said, “it’s not illegal to ‘like’ somebody’s Facebook page”)
This could be some sort of domestic terror attack inspired by ISIS, et al. (if these folks were truly connected, I’m sure ISIL would have made some sort of announcement already – they’re not shy) But CNN leads with what looks like definitive proof that these were Muslim nuts and workplace issues had nothing to do with to more attributable sources says, “we really don’t know much of anything yet.”
Was watching CNN yesterday when we really didn’t know anything and their experts, like Bob Baer, just couldn’t wait to call this terrorism. Shep Smith sounded like Amy Goodman, by contrast.
@MazeDancer: They are also very click-baity like Buzzfeed. Unfortunately, right now more than 50% of the Indian media is in thrall of Modi, so FP is not alone.
I find Times of India and The Hindu to be more reliable in general.
@liberal: Depends on how you define “American interest”. If schools and bridges and health care here at home are in the “American interest” then no, it’s definitely not. However, if empire building in the face of real and imagined Eurasian obstacles is what drives you, it makes sense. And it clearly gives the new Cold Warriors in these threads a hard-on.
@Irony Abounds: I hear you about the Saudis. Fuck them. I’m more concerned with regular old Muslim Americans, who really don’t need to be further marginalized by sinister yahoos like Ted Cruz and strongman-wannabes like Donald Trump.
J R in WV
Unfortunately, Don Blankenship was convicted of the misdemeanor offense, punishable by up to one year in jail. He might get more civil suits, now that he’s been convicted. Oh, yeah, he’ll be free on bond while he appeals, and appeals, and appeals.
I find it hard to understand why securities fraud would have a more severe penalty than conspiracy to evade safety regulations. It did after all result in multiple deaths….
I just wish a state prosecutor had the balls to prosecute him for multiple counts of some kind of homicide, perhaps voluntary manslaughter, even involuntary. But of course in West Virginia, Big Coal owns most all the elected officials, lock, stock and barrel. Even though the industry is shrinking to the point where it is now a tiny proportion of the employment, they still have plenty of swing politically.
So sad. Of course, Upper Big Branch was a relatively small mining accident. My Grandma witnessed a pretty big one at Eccles, back in the early 1900s. Now I’m not sure if it was the really big one in 1914 which killed 174 men, or a small one in 1926 that killed 19 men. The family’s company house above the mine had a fine view of the clouds of smoke pouring from the shaft. She could see it from the kitchen sink, where she ran when the noise started.
Eccles Disaster photo
All too typical… the link works OK for me.
Hang with me as I attempt to put together some idea strands that I have been mulling over for quite a bit: Although not all human societies (small and large) operate as well as they should, the fact remains that by nature, humans are bound to social living.* What is new about the last several decades is how the “best practices” of capitalism have worked to diminish, if not outright erode, the types of community bonds that humans (of some sort) have depended on for about 2 million years.
I think we are just at the beginning of growing social pathologies (that is more than we are already used to)…assuming corrective action is not implemented.
*Yes there are individual deviation. Some folks choose to “go it alone” and get on quite well. Additionally we seem to be at a place where individuals with social disorders can hide in plain sight until they get to a point where they can do real damage. That wasn’t as easy earlier times in human history.
J R in WV
I’m from Raleigh county, and moved all the way across Boone county to NE Lincoln county, about a 90 mile drive. And now I’m doomed to be a foreigner in my own state, forever more. No green card either!
J R in WV
CNN isn’t journalism, hasn’t been since Wolf came in from bring a war correspondent to be an anchor.
They’re just a medium to sell commercials to make money, and they’ll say almost anything that gets them a bigger audience, so they can charge a little more for 30 seconds of air time for a commercial.
Facts not necessary!
@J R in WV: Chuckles Todd is about the both sides do it again. Trump is questioning Obama’s motives but the terrible liberals are prayer shaming. No NO NO. Some people may have questioned the value of prayer in a general sense but mostly people were saying prayer is fine but then do something concrete. We can pray and send thoughts all we want but if the watch list loop hole remains or the gun show loop hole remains then nothing will change. As the paper headline said – GOD isn’t fixing this. The Goopers knocked themselves out offering prayers and thoughts but voted down the democratic amendment to close the watch list loop hole.
@Betty Cracker: This was more the look I had in mind.
@Paul in KY: Paul, hope you don’t mind, but I took the liberty of copying your request to the Site Maintenance thread. And I seconded your request.
Paul in KY
@Another Holocene Human: You’re probably right. Just get impression the Muslim ones are more genuinely motivated by religious reasons (false ones, put forward by evil people), than the ‘Christian; ones (who seem more like evil assholes just looking for a figleaf to cover their desire to kill a bunch of people).
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: You make some excellent points.
Paul in KY
@Matt McIrvin: Another thing I will have to answer to God for…
Paul in KY
@ogliberal: If the murders were ‘Pseudo Islamic’ (my new coinage) instead of good-ole ‘going postal’, they probably fit under the Lone Wolf type, IMO.
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: No problem at all. Glad you are helping out.
I’d rather call Cruz Baby-Face.