One of my favorite places, growing up, was the Cloisters , which “incorporates parts from five European abbeys which were disassembled and shipped to New York City, where, between 1934 and 1939, they were reconstructed and integrated together with new buildings in the medieval style”. And now I live in the city where Isabella Stuart Gardner bricolaged her own fantasy of what a Renaissance palace could’ve been like, given better transportation (and plumbing). So it pleased me when the Guardian reported that the impulse to repurpose foreign artwork may go back quite a long ways…
Stonehenge may have been first erected in Wales, evidence suggests
Evidence that bluestones were quarried in Wales 500 years before they were put up in Wiltshire prompts theory that Stonehenge is ‘second-hand monument’… It has long been known that the bluestones that form Stonehenge’s inner horseshoe came from the Preseli hills in Pembrokeshire, around 140 miles from Salisbury Plain.
Now archaeologists have discovered a series of recesses in the rocky outcrops of Carn Goedog and Craig Rhos-y-felin, to the north of those hills, that match Stonehenge’s bluestones in size and shape. They have also found similar stones that the prehistoric builders extracted but left behind, and “a loading bay” from where the huge stones could be dragged away…
“We have dates of around 3400 BC for Craig Rhos-y-felin and 3200 BC for Carn Goedog, which is intriguing because the bluestones didn’t get put up at Stonehenge until around 2900 BC,” he said. “It could have taken those Neolithic stone-draggers nearly 500 years to get them to Stonehenge, but that’s pretty improbable in my view. It’s more likely that the stones were first used in a local monument, somewhere near the quarries, that was then dismantled and dragged off to Wiltshire.”…
***********
Apart from common human impulse, what’s on the agenda for the evening?
mclaren
Sure, the Brits have Stonehenge…but America has Carhenge!
A 20-ton neolithic stone block is nothing compared to a 1962 Cadillac.
Keith G
On a bit of a related note, I am just a few chapters away from finishing Neil Gaiman’s American Gods. It has been a very fun and fast experience. I really would like to spend more time with some of the characters.
To the topic: Stonehenge, another relic stolen by the English?
Tom Levenson
@mclaren: Been to carhenge. Perfect expression of something. I enjoyed it.
Tonight? Headed off to Story Collider at the Oberon in a few minutes.
Sad_Dem
Too bad the minutes of the Stonehenge Relocation Project Committee were lost centuries ago.
Baud
@Tom Levenson: Congratulations. Someone said you were recognized for your book recently.
Baud
@Sad_Dem: Probably a zoning issue.
divF
@Baud:
Welsh NIMBYs.
Cermet
The Brit’s stealing from Wales? What they have done for over a thousand years – not at all surprised that they did this even longer ago. Brits are real M-F’er’s. Wales is their West Virginia even today.
p.a.
@Baud: Overbudget also.
p.a.
@Cermet:
Coal, inbreeding, and former conservative, animal-rescuing blogger?
SFAW
Anne Laurie –
The Cloisters was one place I never went, when I lived down that way. Should I rectify that? I understand how you felt about it then, but would it still appeal to an old fart, i.e., me? (I imagine part of the answer includes “Well, it depends on …”)
Calouste
@Keith G: The English (Anglo-Saxons) didn’t arrive in what now is called England until more than 3 millennia after Stonehenge was constructed.
Eric U.
@Calouste: way to ruin a good rant
JMG
All I remember about the Cloisters, which I visited as a little kid, is the motorcycle chase staged there in the climax of Don Siegel’s “Coogan’s Bluff” with good guy Clint Eastwood chasing psycho villain (made a living in the late ’60s in that role) Don Stroud.
Goblue72
I thought you lived in the Boston suburbs not the City proper?
Anne Laurie
@SFAW:
Haven’t been back for a few years, but the Fort Tryon setting is lovely, so it’s worth visiting on a nice day even if you don’t particularly care for medieval architecture/art. If nothing else, the Unicorn Tapestries are stunning — one of the great artworks that really needs to be seen in person to be appreciated!
PurpleGirl
@SFAW: Oh yes. The Cloisters are beautiful as is the park land they are set in. They are built on the heights and there are spectacular views of the Hudson River.
ETA: The subway that goes there is way below ground level and you must use an elevator to get up to the ground level.
patrick II
Today I found that I may have had my personal information stolen for the fifth time — this time from my T-Mobile account. Before that it was:
Home Depot
OMB federal employees
Chase Visa
Blue Cross/Blue Shield Alliance
I’m more or less resigned to the fact that the only reason I still have any money and my personal identity (so far) is that I don’t have enough money to steal.
Anne Laurie
@Goblue72: Yeah, but you can get here from there! — and plenty of commuters do, every day.
scav
More from the great Henge Periphery: the Orkneys! Stones from before and contemporary with Stonehenge, but also Maes Howe, Skara Brae and the Ness of Brodgar (3-D even).
Shell
I thought it was Merlin who magically transported the stones from Wales to Britain.
***
Oh, I would love to see the Cloisters again, especially this time of year when its all decorated. I saw the Waverly Consort’s Christmas concert there.
Im just not that mobile this year.
Denali
Carhenge is way cool! Definitely worth a visit.
ThresherK
The Cloisters reminds me of two things in particular: That scene in the novel Marjorie Morningstar, where I first heard of it, and the tapestry with the unicorn from when my GF-now-wife and I went.
Springtime is great there.
Calouste
@Eric U.: Quite amazing actually to think that the Anglo-Saxons were about as far removed in time from the creators of Stonehenge as we are from the Trojan War.
mdblanche
Eddie Izzard is going to have to update his routine.
Mandalay
@Cermet:
Maybe so, but Wales has something that no other country can match – the greatest national anthem on earth by a mile. Brahms or Schubert would have been proud to have written that.
gogol's wife
@JMG:
I adored Don Stroud. He could rock a pair of mirrored sunglasses like no one else.
PurpleGirl
@scav: On the Smithsonian Channel they have shown a number of times several shows about sacred sites in Ireland and the British Isles. I would love to see — to tour — all the Stone Age monuments. They are incredible. The work that went into them as a community endeavor puts us to shame when you think about our contemporary citizens who don’t want to contribute the taxes to keep infrastructure in good repair.
I think it would be neat if the British built a replica of Woodhenge, so the two monuments could be compared and contrasted and their possible uses studied better.
Ohio Mom
@ThresherK: I was just going to say that for anyone planning a visit to The Cloisters, the gardens are gorgeous in the spring.
gogol's wife
Where is Mnemosyne? I wanted to share my utter adoration for Hamilton, which I finally finished listening to today. And this good interview with Miranda and Kail:
http://magazine.wesleyan.edu/2015/12/07/a-musical-revolution-on-broadway/
NotMax
@PurpleGirl
If one is that far up north on Manhattan (and feeling adventurous), the “secret” path to the Little Red Lighthouse is worth an amble, although perhaps not so much in winter weather.
For the less ambitious, I believe the NY Urban Rangers still run scheduled tours that allow one inside.
Cacti
Sheldon Adelson has purchased the Las Vegas Review-Journal, the state’s largest daily newspaper.
I guess the only real comfort to be taken is that newspapers are dying medium, read mostly by olds. Still though, a little troubling to see another member of the billionaire cabal buying up the news.
Peale
@Sad_Dem: they spent 500 years debating on the second Tuesday of each month whether to allow the refugee stones into the country. There was quite a bit of NIMBYism in the Neolithic, and the discussions got tedious after awhile.
Gimlet
Gauche
Religious programming has also been a huge boon for broadcasters. The very Christian production of Dolly Parton’s A Coat of Many Colors brought 13 million God-fearing viewers to NBC last week. That’s about the same number that tuned in for The Bible miniseries on History Channel in 2013, which was a big shock to just about everyone. And speaking of The Passion, Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ is still the country’s highest-grossing R-rated movie of all time, with $370m in ticket sales.
You can just see someone tapping his or her fingers together and thinking, “What if we did a live musical about Jesus? That thing would be huge!” No one stopped to think that maybe a musical about the death of Jesus broadcast live from New Orleans, which culminates with a 20ft illuminated crucifix being paraded through the streets, would be a good idea.
gogol's wife
@Gimlet:
What about Lloyd Webber and Rice?
Thoughtful Today
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/263443-burr-investigating-if-cruz-discussed-classified-information-during-debate
SiubhanDuinne
When I graduated from eighth grade (June 1956), my art-teacher great aunt treated me to my first trip east — Philadelphia, Washington DC, and New York. The entire trip lasted probably less than ten days, but I defy you to name a significant tourist attraction in any of those three cities that we didn’t visit. The NYC leg included several hours at the Cloisters, which I loved. Have always been slightly amazed that it’s not better known.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gimlet:
@gogol’s wife:
Obligatory.
Origuy
@ThresherK:
If you ever go to Scotland, be sure to go to Stirling Castle. Among other great things, they’ve recreated a set of tapestries based on the ones in the Cloisters, and hung them in the queen’s bedchamber. I was lucky enough to go there when the weavers weren’t working, and saw them in progress.
NotMax
Sigh. Code fix.
@Cacti
I may not agree with Adelson’s politics, but don’t see it as that much of a detriment unless he becomes heavy-handed with interference in non-editorial content.
1) he can well afford to keep it going.
2) is it not preferable in many ways to have it be (mostly) independently owned (and by someone with a claim to local roots) rather than swallowed up by a syndicate, becoming another plain vanilla cog indistinguishable from their other holdings?
mdblanche
@Keith G:
I suppose Stonehenge is OK as is, but what would really tie it together are some marbles from the Parthenon.
@p.a.:
Coal, yes, but Wales is more one of those places where the men are men and the sheep are nervous.
Omnes Omnibus
@mdblanche:
Yes, they do have a proud rugby tradition.
lahke
A slightly later theft: the water cistern near/under the Hagia Sofia in Istanbul is very cool, and made in 580- something from scavenged temples. Most of those columns don’t match each other, and some are balanced on chunks of statues of earlier gods.
If you’ve a mind to travel, Istanbul is a wonderful place to visit.
Roger Moore
@patrick II:
I had my information stolen when thieves broke into the warehouse where my escrow company kept their physical records and stole a whole bunch of them. The thieves managed to get enough information they were able to hijack my web logon to my bank. Fortunately, the bank sent me emails telling me as they were changing various aspects of my account- “You’ve just updated your address”, etc.- that I got quickly enough to call the bank and re-lock my accounts before they were emptied. I don’t know how competent the thieves were- there were signs they weren’t really professional- but having my account hijacked was scary.
Thoughtful Today
Anne, front pagers, this is front page worthy:
“GOP [Republican] chair probes if Cruz unveiled classified info during debate.”
IOKIYAR?
Jay C
Why? It’s Britain. Allowing for union rules, frequent tea breaks, and the normal condition of the road system, 500 years to get from Wales to Salisbury is only moderately “improbable”!
And second the reccs for a visit to The Cloisters. Though it’s hard to get to (by NYC standards) it’s well worth the effort (IMHO)
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Keith G: Ugh. I won’t say that I disliked American Gods, because I didn’t find it substantial enough to merit a strong opinion. A friend described it as “mythological tourism,” with all of the shallowness that that implies. And casting America as the place that ignores religion was so laughable that I almost put the book down right then.
I’ve never been impressed with Gaiman’s prose. Neverwhere was pretty good, but I just don’t think it’s his best medium. For a guy who absolutely cannot draw, his sense of visual presentation and layout is just phenomenal. Leaving comics eliminated his strongest artistic ablity.
Roger Moore
@Calouste:
And probably further in mental space, since the Trojan War at least left an oral history that we can learn about by reading Homer. But that kind of thinking about time can be helpful in understanding history. My favorite example of this is to mention that we’re about as close in time to Herodotus as he was to the builders of the pyramids; it gives some real perspective on just how old the pyramids are. Another one I like to mention is that the framers of the Constitution were closer in time to the English Civil War than we are to the American Civil War; it gives you an idea that it might have affected their thinking at least as much as our Civil War affects ours.
Michael Bersin
Today in Missouri Rep. Rick Brattin (r) withdrew HB 1473, the pre-filed bill for the 2016 session, which would have punished intercollegiate athletes for refusing to play.
Widespread public derision will do that.
Pete
There is also a Stonehenge in Washington State, a replica doing duty as a WWI memorial. And down the road is Stonehenge Cannabis. Just saying.
NotMax
@Gimlet
Adjusted for inflation, R-rated The Exorcist far, far surpasses Gibson’s film in box office receipts.
gogol's wife
My comment lauding Hamilton and offering a link to a great interview with LMM is in moderation, after an hour.
Emma
Actually, IIRC, it’s been known for a while that the Welsh stones have been moved from their original position; in other words, Stonehenge has been “remodeled” at least once. I just got Prof. Mike Parker Pearson’s book on his excavation of the ritual landscape around Stonehenge and its larger sister, Durrington Walls:
“The first Stonehenge began its life as a huge graveyard,” said Professor Parker Pearson. “The original monument was a large circular enclosure built 500 years before the Stonehenge we know today, with the remains of many of the cremated bodies originally marked by the bluestones of Stonehenge. We have also discovered that the second Stonehenge was built 200 years earlier than thought, around 2500 BC.”
here
NotMax
And people say stoners are lethargic.
mclaren
@divF:
You, sir, have just won the internet. :-)
mclaren
@lahke:
Sounds megabitchin’. Istanbul is definitely one place I want to visit, along with Iceland, Hungary, and Brno in the Czech Republic.
raven
@NotMax: Man the World Championship at the Pipeline is awesome. I watched it live for an hour or so!
TheMightyTrowel
It’s always a little surreal when this stuff hits the news because these are my colleagues doing that work – one of my closest archaeology friends made the 3d model of ness of brodgar that Scav posted and he and other friends ran these excavations in Wales.
Stonehenge itself was never really a finished monument. There are at least three major phases of construction – one with no uprights, one with timber and then a third with the standing stones and actually there are probably at least 4 major sub phases of the stone phase – to erect the Welsh stones, to shift them around, to add the big trilithons, to shift them around and then to move them all again.
Fun fact: HENGE is an Anglo Saxon word that means gallows – stonehenge got its name because the trilithons reminded people of a gallows. Henge actually has a whole other use in archaeology and stonehenge is not a henge.
David Koch
3 Olympic teams
4 World Cups
4 time All-American
High School player of the year
College player of the year
FIFA player of the year
30 years of soccer ends tonite for Abby Wambach on fox sports
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@gogol’s wife: There are some interesting videos in this channel. I’m hoping that the ten minutes long one is still there when you check it out. Download it if you know how; it tends to vanish abruptly.
The Mixtape at the Lincoln Center has part of an early version of “Right Hand Man” in it. I understand why it was cut down, but it has a more blatant explanation for Washington’s dislike of Burr.
amk
why thread titles have no linkys?
ThresherK
@Origuy: It’s on my list now, thanks. The only trick to a Scotland trip would be convincing my wife to watch football with me. Up the Pars!
Hal
Meanwhile, in Ohio…
http://jezebel.com/ohio-bill-would-require-women-to-bury-or-cremate-aborte-1748306680
beltane
@NotMax: The paper (a free paper at that) Adelson owns in Israel is several miles to the right of any Rupert Murdoch publication and is also the most widely read. This cannot be good news.
beltane
@Hal: Are they also going to issue death certificates for the unborn? How does this work.
Martel
@beltane:
Probably so. Next they’ll ask women to view the fetal remains. The war on women rolls on.
JMG
@beltane: Who in Vegas reads a paper except the Daily Racing Form? Also, the publisher before Adelson was also a right-wing nutjob, so readers won’t see much change.
Poopyman
@Thoughtful Today:
Makes not one fucking iota difference whether classified info had been published before. It’s still classified.
It would make me happy if they nailed his balls to the wall, but I suspect IOKIYAR will rule the day once again.
Omnes Omnibus
@beltane: The undead have birth certificates*, so why not?
*See, e.g., Cheney, Richard B.
NotMax
@beltane
Aware of that.
Israel is his hobby horse. Gut feeling is that the Las Vegas acquisition is gonna be more of a hobby/casino promotion outlet.
But we shall see.
lamh36
“ex-bae, ex-bae, ex-bae”.
Lol…well at least until after Luther tomorrow night…lol
Busy night tmrw. Luther and POTUS on Bear Grylls…gonna be DVRing POTUS and watching Luther live.
NotMax
@beltane
Aware of that.
Israel is his hobby horse. Gut feeling is that the Las Vegas acquisition will turn out to be more of a hobby/cas*no promotion outlet.
But we shall see.
SFAW
@Anne Laurie:
@PurpleGirl:
Thanks!
JPL
@Poopyman: IOKIYAR.. They aren’t investigating.
ljt
@lamh36: Thank you for reminders! DVR set.
Baud
Rachel is hilarious. Mocking yesterday’s debate.
Iowa Old Lady
@Hal: I don’t know which infuriates me more, the cruelty of this or the stupidity. I have a friend who’s been trying to get pregnant, finally resorting to IVF. Failed the first time, seemed to have succeeded the second. Then only a few weeks in, no sign of life in the implanted material. She has to have a D&C. Is it really these bastards’ intention that she be further subjected to deciding whether to bury the material the doctor scrapes out? Or do they think their law would apply only to women skipping in to have an abortion before a night on the town or to a woman who claims she miscarried but really probably snuck in an abortion?
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
You’re in luck — the sequel is Anansi Boys and Mr. Nancy is the central character.
There seem to be two camps of Gaiman fans: American Gods vs Neverwhere. I’m in the AG camp myself. But we can all agree on Sandman, at least.
PurpleGirl
@Iowa Old Lady: I feel sorry for your friend. This idea is both stupid and cruel. Cruel because of what it will subject a woman like your friend to. Stupid because so many pregnancies end in early ‘miscarriages’ naturally, so early that the woman doesn’t even realize she is pregnant. What will they expect of the woman who loses a fetus in the toilet bowl? Stupid and cruel.
lamh36
THE CAULDRON
Tom Brady needs to answer questions about his support of Donald Trump
Mnemosyne
@gogol’s wife:
Another convert to the cult! ;-)
Just got home — I was away from the Internet most of the day. I’m going to force my niece to listen to Hamilton on the hour-long drive to Disneyland on Saturday. I think she’ll like it. She’s already a huge fan of Wicked.
And to add to the Jesus musical discussion, I thought half the high schools in America do Godspell every other year. Between that and JCS, how many more do we need?
(Does LM talk in that interview about how Burr/Hamilton is Judas/Jesus in JCS? It’s there, and it’s deliberate. Never mind, I’ll go read it.)
Shana
@gogol’s wife: Have you seen the show or just listened to the soundtrack? If the latter, did you have any trouble following it?
Mnemosyne
@Shana:
I’ve only been listening to it, but you can get all of the lyrics for free from the Atlantic Music cast album webpage. You can download PDFs of the CD booklets or click on each song online.
What’s nice about the online version is that they partnered with Genius.com to annotate the lyrics and explain some of the allusions. It’s very handy.
Omnes Omnibus
@Shana: FWIW I have just listened to the soundtrack and I found it easy to follow. OTOH I know that period’s history reasonably well. It might be like Wolf Hall where knowing the history make it much more intelligible.
gogol's wife
@Shana:
I have NOT seen the show. The one weekend that I could have gotten a ticket, we had to be in Milwaukee. My brother saw it and said it was great. Since he’s even older than I am, I decided I might like it. I bought the CD and have been listening to it in the car, which is the only place I can listen to music. I don’t know the history very well, but I have been following it, occasionally bothering my husband with questions like, “What happened at the Battle of Yorktown?” Today I finished listening to it, and I was totally in tears, and I think it’s a great work of art. This is me — well, I’m going to put the link into another comment, which will probably get moderated.
gogol's wife
@Shana:
So this is me (metaphorically speaking):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD32Byzw0hg
gogol's wife
@gogol’s wife:
Yeah, it got moderated. It’s a YouTube video called something like “The Stages of Becoming Obsessed with Hamilton.”
gogol's wife
@Mnemosyne:
Yes, he does.
Omnes Omnibus
@gogol’s wife: You kids terrify me.
gogol's wife
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Thanks, that’s great.
gogol's wife
@Omnes Omnibus:
hahaha
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
If you like Revolutionary history, you may already be familiar wth the online Journal of the American Revolution, but I only just discovered them. They appear to be made up of historians, former military, and former military who became historians. This 2013 article about Hamilton’s real-life military exploits has a pleasantly irreverent tone.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: It is a nice write up.
goblue72
@Anne Laurie: Ah. Just the “now I live in the city where…” thing. Took that to mean within city limits.
I’m admittedly a stickler for it. Lived in Boston for 12 years, registered voter, attended local ward committee meetings, civic association meetings, etc – Allston/Brighton, mostly off Comm Ave, JP near the Pond and the South End a block from Back Bay Station. Had friends who would generically describe themselves as living in Boston. I’d usually clarify – “Um…you live in Somerville/Cambridge/Brookline/Arlington/etc.”
Mnemosyne
@goblue72:
Depends on who you’re talking to. I had to start saying I was from “Chicago” even though I’m from the suburbs because otherwise people outside of Illinois would ask if I knew their cousin in Carbondale. Uh, no, that’s at the other end of the state, and it’s a pretty good-sized state. If I’m talking to someone from the same area, then I’ll say the North Shore or the actual town.
goblue72
@Mnemosyne: Good point. I freely admit that its an entirely personal hobby horse / pet peeve / bugaboo of mine. Since moving from my home town at 18, have always lived inside the city limits of a large city (save for three years in grad school in Ann Arbor – even then, spent summers back in the city). Which means decades of having to deal with crowded streets/high rents/no street parking/everything costing too much/having to rely on public transit/continuous black soot on my windows/homeless dudes crapping on my stoop/drunks partying outside the bedroom window/people rioting down the block/etc. You wind up getting cranky about “I live in “X” statements. (And yes, I did once have people rioting down the block. Hella love Oakland.)
I mean, I love living in the city. But man, you do wind up earning your stripes after awhile.
Steeplejack
@gogol’s wife:
Currently FYWP does not like “naked” hyperlinks. You can avoid the problem—and moderation—if you use the link-mo-tron gadget above the comment box to dress up your link into the form
<a href="URL">Descriptive_Text</a>
Jack Canuck
@Origuy:
Small world – my wife was one of the weavers doing the restoration work on the tapestries at Stirling! She worked there for about three years before coming back to Australia (where I met her). One of these days we plan to go back to see them hung in place, and show our son.
Barney
@Shell: The story was that Merlin took them from Ireland – I was surprised The Guardian didn’t mention it:
Uncle Cosmo
BTW, FTR, FWIW, the archieologists & Guardian have got things somewhat guarbled.
Stonehenge was originally constructed in Atlantis. It was transported to the Aisles on the backs of whales.
Glad I could clear that up! :p