Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The revolution will be supervised.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

The fundamental promise of conservatism all over the world is a return to an idealized past that never existed.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

Weird. Rome has an American Pope and America has a Russian President.

I desperately hope that, yet again, i am wrong.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

Dear media: perhaps we ought to let Donald Trump speak for himself!

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty. ~Thomas Jefferson

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires Republicans to act in good faith.

I swear, each month of 2025 will have its own history degree.

So many bastards, so little time.

“Loving your country does not mean lying about its history.”

These days, even the boring Republicans are nuts.

Donald Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Debate Open Thread

Reader Interactions

310Comments

  4. 4.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    MOM had a good opening statement, but he also said “the first job of the president is to keep us safe” nonsense.

    Grr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  5. 5.

    Thoughtful Today

    There are sharp difference between the Democratic candidates _on_stage_.

    Hopefully they’ll be articulated.

  10. 10.

    Thoughtful Today

    Opening statements:

    A+ for both Hillary and Bernie.

    As a Bernie supporter I appreciated Bernie’s specifics.

    Hillary’s style tonight is exceptional.

    B- for Martin, great speech, awkwardly given.

  13. 13.

    Adam L Silverman

    Senator Sanders has just very graciously apologized. And Secretary Clinton is accepting. The media is going to be pissed.

  17. 17.

    Amir Khalid

    Why do they bother with opening statements from the candidates? How does a recital of campaign boilerplate tell the voter anything useful? Harrumph.

  23. 23.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman:

    ” Senator Sanders has just very graciously apologized. And Secretary Clinton is accepting. The media is going to be pissed. ”

    And the media don’t forgive, they get even.
    Though, these moderators seem to be moving on, thank goodness. Might be an OK debate.

  25. 25.

    Amir Khalid

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Bernie’s a far better person than some of his campaign staff and supporters. So I have a scenario to put before the latter: Hillary wins the nom. Bernie endorses Hillary. What do you do?

  26. 26.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    Hillary won’t be denied the universal sound bite that the President must keep the US and American families safe!

    (grumble)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  29. 29.

    jl

    @dmsilev:

    “Should we shit our pants in fear, or is pissing our pants sufficient?”

    Not both? What kind of half-ass national security policy are you advocating? You are weak.

  30. 30.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    Martin O’Malley is getting awfully worked up and self-righteous for someone who’s decided that OMG we’re all going to die a la Lindsey Graham is his main message.

    Also this ABC stream is barely functional, stuttering and stopping for minutes at a time. Since it’s the only way i can watch, I probably won’t last long.

  36. 36.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Amir Khalid: You asking me specifically? I do either do work on civilian mobilization orders for the US government via the US military or as a contractor. I do not discuss my political affiliations or who I will or will not vote. I will, when I receive my ballot, vote accordingly and secretly.

    If you’re asking what I would recommend to either’s supporters? If they think that electing either Secretary Clinton or Senator Sanders is important to prevent electing one of the GOP candidates, then they should vote for whoever the nominee is.

  38. 38.

    dmsilev

    @Baud: He’s obviously decided to go one-note scare scare scare. Not sure why, though I suppose it can’t really lose him support.

  41. 41.

    jl

    Sanders didn’t really answer the question about homeland attacks. A little over-rehearsed like O’Malley. Or under rehearsed. Let’s see if HRC will be (as I expect) quicker on her feet than the others.

    I really don’t like the way these debates are moderated. No follow-up when candidates don’t answer question. And my man Bernie (well, I threw the old coot 50 bucks) didn’t answer a question I would like have heard his thoughts about.

    OK, I think Sanders did get a kind of follow-up, but now he is pumping out his stump speech bit on gun control.
    Bernie, WTF are your thoughts on how to stop homegrown terrorist attack? Yeesh.

    Edit: I prefer a real debate where all the candidates get a shot at the same question and they each get pointed follow-ups if they don’t respond, and they can respond to each other’s answers to the same questions. Do the media people understand what a debate is? FFS.

  42. 42.

    Adam L Silverman

    @raven: Not formally. I’m not trained to do so, nor have I ever worked for the State Department. However, I have had to lead engagements on behalf of my commander in Iraq, as well as deal with VIPs.

    As to how I deal with my own voting/political stuff: I always vote, but I have to do the work I do regardless of who is President or running Congress or the DOD or DOS. I don’t ever agree with any of them on everything.

  46. 46.

    max

    I can’t tell what the fuck is going on because DWS has embargoed my ABC feed.

    max
    [‘Actually, I think she stole Cole’s mustard and then lost it.’]

  47. 47.

    Amir Khalid

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Well, not you specifically, but to the die-hard Bernistas who seem at least as horrified by the idea of President Hillary as by the idea of President Republican-from-2016-Klown-Kar.

  54. 54.

    jl

    There is kind of real debate now, but all of it is AGAINST THE STUPID RULES.

    Sorry for CAPS, but our media sucks so bad.

  58. 58.

    Another Holocene Human

    @efgoldman: I was friends with a Rabinowitz in high school. She kicked my ass academically. Would that name mean, by interpretation, “son of the rabbi”?

  65. 65.

    max

    So basically this is a Hillary for America thing but they let O’Malley and Sanders show up?

    max
    [‘OK.’]

  70. 70.

    Thoughtful Today

    Yup, Pres Bush gets credit for taking his shoes off in the Mosque.

    Noteworthy.

    …

    Seems like a pretty low bar.

  73. 73.

    RaflW

    Martha Raddatz just humiliated O’Malley. But in fairness to Raddatz, he begged for it. This “I gotta speak, here” schtick makes some sense in the GOP debate with almost two fistfuls of candidates. But there are 3 on this stage.

  76. 76.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Amir Khalid: I think that if they think that electing either Secretary Clinton or Senator Sanders is important or necessary to prevent electing one of the GOP candidates from being elected, then they should vote for whoever the nominee is.

  77. 77.

    CaseyL

    @Baud: I thought Bernie made a good point, but too obliquely. People are under tremendous economic stress, which mean they’re more likely to strike out at easy targets, and more responsive to demagogues. That is a truth of human psychology.

    People are “scared of terrorism” – more than they should be – because it’s an external, easily defined threat.

  82. 82.

    jl

    @RaflW: Not for O’Malley, but I sympathize with him, I hate this kind of format. They all should get a shot to answer the same questions.

    Gosh, if only a competent independent disinterested non-profit civic group existed that had expertise in elections and democratic process and that could put on these debates…. Naw, that is crazy talk.

    Edit: Huh, audo cut out for a minute. Did MOM get a crack at the Trump question? I hope so.

  84. 84.

    Mike J

    The Comcast on screen guide refers to the “Democrat” debate. To be fair, the extended info talks about the Democratic debate, but it still makes them look illiterate.

  88. 88.

    max

    What the fsck kind of rules are these? (Keeping in mind about 3 minutes of the first 30 minutes of the debate.)

    max
    [‘Weird.’]

  95. 95.

    beltane

    I really can’t watch this. Instead, I’ll sit here drinking my cheap wine from Trader Joe’s and let you guys watch.

  98. 98.

    jl

    I think Raddatz is pestering Sanders on a issue that has already been discussed.

    Now Raddatz is asking HRC a question with a doubtful premise, and a premise which contradicts the premise of her previous question to Sanders. Which I suppose is OK in a debate, but in the middle of the answers she has been interjecting the premise as a matter of obvious fact.

    I don’t know much about Raddatz. Right now she is tendentiously gotcha-ing. Good on HRC for calling her on it.

  99. 99.

    RaflW

    @jl: OK, now that I’m tracking more, this is a stupid format. Each of the three should get a chance to engage each question. Even if just a 30 second rebuttal.

  103. 103.

    Thoughtful Today

    “I’ll sit here drinking my cheap wine from Trader Joe’s and let you guys watch.”

    Damn’t! I knew I missed something on the shopping list!

  117. 117.

    Botsplainer

    So what is longtime independent socialist, not Democrat Bernie doing with his contributions besides designing memes with surly snarls and organizing crusades to oust the entirety of the leadership and activist base of the DNC?

    Is any of that money being used productively?

  119. 119.

    jl

    OK, Sanders wading in with real debate with HRC on foreign policy, with reasons, and overall long run strategic implications that are important. Kind of an important issue to discuss in an election.

    He is doing this against the rules I think, so he is naughty.

    Well, looks like the candidates want to have a real debate. What would happen if the candidates told the moderators STFU so they could have a real debate?

    Edit: OK, Pretty Boy Muir noticed there is some daylight between Sanders and HRC. Gawd he is a brilliant journalist. Glad he is here to explain the debate to me and then jump in and interfere with it.

    Edit2: OK, I admit Muir clarified the debate a little I will try to put my spleen aside for a moment.

  121. 121.

    Anoniminous

    @efgoldman:

    Could have been. The FAS was the Yiddish language Anarchist paper of the period. I knew one of the editors back in the Day and if he was living in or around NYC and active I could have met your grandfather.

  126. 126.

    Adam L Silverman

    I would pay good money for the League of Women Voters to be back in charge of the debates!

  130. 130.

    dmsilev

    @BillinGlendaleCA: He’s flailing. I sort of assumed he was running as a sort of job interview for a Cabinet post or possibly VP, but this seems like a strange way to go about it.

  132. 132.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman: A fairly informative debate is breaking out despite the moderators and the stupid rules.

    If the media would think about some fair and sensible debate rules ahead of time, it would be even better.

  134. 134.

    CaseyL

    I’m losing track of who does and does not support fighting Daesh *and* getting rid of Assad at the same time. I could swear I heard everyone on stage say in one breath it’s a bad idea to do both at once, and then in the next say it’s vital to do both at once.

  138. 138.

    Baud

    @CaseyL: It’s a pattern that’s developed. Claim that there are fundamental differences and then repeat what the other candidate said.

  141. 141.

    CaseyL

    @dmsilev: I turned off the sound when they came on. If there’s anything more useless than teats on a bull, it’s American political pundits.

    …and kept the sound off for the commercials. What do the candidates do during commercials, one wonders.

  143. 143.

    PaulW

    For those complaining there aren’t enough Dem debates, I don’t see the problem. The Republicans may be getting more attention but it’s because their major candidates are batsh-t insane, not because they’re on teevee more often.

  146. 146.

    Thoughtful Today

    …

    The failure to recognize that Syria’s fracturing is part of the dominoes kicked over by Hillary’s vote for Iraq offends me. Too big to gloss that over. It’s an irresponsible misunderstanding of the underlying factors. She fails to understand the history of the region.

    Worse, Hillary misunderstands that Iran, as a Shia superpower, is, much as I hate it, potentially a serious ally against the Sunni extremists birthed by Saudi Arabian ideologues and now calling themselves Daesh/Isil.

    Saudi Arabia really does need someone confronting their extremism and demanding they step up.

    Good on ya, Bernie.

  147. 147.

    Anne Laurie

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I would pay good money for the League of Women Voters to be back in charge of the debates!

    IIRC, they gave it up because they said it had become purely impossible to run a fair, thoughtful debate without getting attacked by every two-bit lobbyist/grifter looking to snag free air time with a sockpuppet candidate. (Although they probly used more diplomatic phrasing.)

  152. 152.

    Adam L Silverman

    @CaseyL: I think they should have Harold Lederman, HBO’s unofficial ringside scorer, provide who’s winning question by question on a ten point must system on the breaks. And we should see the candidates on stools with their trainers and cut men/women getting refreshed for the next round.

  153. 153.

    jl

    @CaseyL: By the end, Sanders came out on cooperate on destroying Daesh first, then work on dealing with Assad later, and probably not by trying for abrupt and complete regime change. HRC thinks we can and should work on both at the same time.

    I agree with Sanders on this. And glad he finally decided to actually debate some foreign policy issues seriously. He needs to do more of that.

    I agree with commenter above that Sanders made some good points but too obliquely. Sanders is not quick on his feet in articulating thoughts. Probably will be something clearer in his Stump speech in a few days.

  156. 156.

    Thoughtful Today

    Disney/ABC was wrong not waiting for Hillary.

    Disrespectful.

    Bad Disney! No imaginary Kingdom for you!

  160. 160.

    dmsilev

    I think O’Malley used the break to slug down a few more energy drinks. Decaf, Governor, decaf.

  161. 161.

    Adam L Silverman

    @dmsilev: Nope, I’m hoping for KISS. Or Jethro Tull. Debates either need lots of makeup and pyrotechnics or an old guy wearing a cod piece, standing on one foot playing a flute.

  163. 163.

    jl

    Did Muir just steal a section of Sanders’ stump speech and ask him how he will increase pay ‘immediately’?

    WTF… Is asking how the president will do something immediately that cannot be done immediately an interesting question?

    Did Sanders’ campaign pay him off to lob a softball non-question full of maple syrup? He doesn’t need another campaign scandal right now.

    Well, at least they seem to be giving all the candidates a crack at the same question.

    Edit: Asking the candidates to respond to GOP clowns’ criticism of the minimum wage would be more interesting, if the moderators could do it without loading it full of buckshot. Why such a general uninteresting question. I guess it is stump speech break time.

  170. 170.

    Thoughtful Today

    !!!

    Wealth inequality INCREASED under Clinton.

    Hillary’s Billionaire Heir employers, the Waltons, were vastly enriched from Bill Clinton’s right-wing/neoliberal economic policies, policies that gutted America’s middle class.

  172. 172.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    There are several good points being brought up by the three, but they don’t seem to be able to connect the dots.

    I think Clinton is right that it’s almost impossible to just go after Daesh without also confronting Assad. I think that O’Malley is right that we don’t have the right to decide when a dictator has to go. I think Clinton is wrong when she says a NoFly Zone will somehow make it safe for Syrians to stay in the country – one that she wouldn’t commit to enforcing against Assad’s or Putin’s air forces. Her sound-bite argument for a NoFly Zone is nonsensical.

    Yes, a coalition to go after Daesh is much easier to construct than one that goes after Daesh and Assad. But, as she said, Assad has killed an order of magnitude or more than Daesh – he’s the baddest actor there.

    I think new coalitions are great, but I also recognize that the USA is still the essential actor in too many cases.

    But what is the plan for what comes after?

    They all seem to have memorized sound-bites and rebuttals, but they don’t seem to have thought about how to counter criticisms of their plans in real time.

    If one were hard headed, one could counter the argument that “Saudia Arabia is slaughtering people in Yemen – why aren’t we up in arms about that??” via something like this:

    1) Syrian refugees are fleeing the country and stressing and destabilizing her neighbors and our friends and allies in Europe.
    2) They’re fleeing Syria primarily because of the war in Syria – war with Assad and war with Daesh.
    3) The over-arching goal is to end the bloodshed in Syria so that Syrians can go home and rebuild their country, and to prevent construction of a safe-haven for Daesh.
    4) Our preferred outcome is that Assad leave office and that the government be representative, democratic, and inclusive. We will do what we can to help achieve that outcome, but we will not impose that outcome.

    NoFly Zones and Bootsonaground aren’t a panacea. People advocating such things need to explain how those things will help get to the goal we seek. Walking away won’t help reduce instability in the region (and in Europe). Trying to counter Putin or the Iranian mullahs or Erdogan without working to a sustainable end game is a waste of time.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  175. 175.

    magurakurin

    Sander’s stump speech is past it’s due date. I’m over it. Let’s do this. Iowa can’t come soon enough.

  176. 176.

    Thoughtful Today

    9/11!

    9/11!

    9/11!

    That’s why the Banksters can’t be regulated.

    You tell ’em Hillary!

  177. 177.

    Yutsano

    @CaseyL: I thought he was at the last meet-up.

    Speaking of which, I have follow-up appointments soon. Couple that with an e-mail I got at work that says I’m a priority hire for my dream job with the IRS AND we actually got a budget increase means I could be back some time next month coupled with moving back soon after. The situation is fluid and I will keep y’all posted.

  179. 179.

    Thoughtful Today

    hehehehe

    Hillary assumes that we’re all too dumb to realize there are good and bad billionaires.

    Hillary’s got Billionaire Buffet behind her.

    heh, her employment by the Walton Billionaire Heirs is always … forgotten by her and her loudest allies.

  181. 181.

    magurakurin

    Yeah, you do have a super PAC and according to your own, pulled, shitty gif ad, you did get money from Wall Street, just way less. So, you got the Baby Bear amount I guess.

  182. 182.

    raven

    @Adam L Silverman: Sha Na Na played with a bunch of bands:

    From 1969 until 1971, the band played at, among other places, the Fillmore East and Fillmore West, opening for such bands as The Grateful Dead, The Mothers of Invention, and The Kinks.[7] When Sha Na Na began headlining at other venues, one of the opening acts was Bruce Springsteen.[8] In 1972, Sha Na Na was one of just four acts invited by John Lennon and Yoko Ono to perform with them at their One-to-One benefit concert at Madison Square Garden.[9

  184. 184.

    Thoughtful Today

    Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting for Martha to mention how many people STILL don’t have healthcare.

    Oh, apparently Disney’s not going to mention _those_ people.

  185. 185.

    jl

    I’m a commie economist so want aggressive parts of Sanders and HRC combined for financial reform.

    Can we elect Berally Clinters as president of financial reform? I gotta brush up on how this presidenting thing works.

  189. 189.

    Adam L Silverman

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I’ll bite on Yemen. Yemen should be a strategic concern because a failed or failing Yemen creates non-governable/non-governed spaces that can be exploited as transit ways, bed down points, and/or training sites by terrorists, as well as human traffickers. The same goes for what is going on across the straits in Somalia. That said, the problem for developing a coherent policy and strategy for Yemen is that its human geography is the stuff of nightmares. The tribes are not organized along kinship lines, but rather they are geo-spatially organized. So it does one no good to cultivate contacts through Engagement, as one would in Iraq or Syria or Afghanistan, because trying to leverage that contact is likely not going to get anyone anywhere. Then there’s the sectarian divide. And while its Sunni/Shi’a, its not Sunni/Shi’a like anywhere else. The Shi’a in Yemen are Zaydis/Fivers – very different version of the religion. And that’s before we get into the real human geography divides of Aden (the urban folks) versus the rural folks, some of whom are tribal, and then the tribal guys in the Hawdrawmut. Unfortunately, unlike the Brits, we can’t simply announce we no longer need a coaling station in Aden and stop caring.

  191. 191.

    jl

    @Baud: O’Malley can be the front man. He is smooth.

    Edit: Sorry, I meant smoooooootthhhhh. Kasich should take lessons from him on hand gestures.

  193. 193.

    hilts

    @jl:

    You don’t know what you’re talking about. Martha Radditz is one of the few truly competent broadcast journalists in the business.

  195. 195.

    RaflW

    @jl: If the media would think about some fair and sensible debate rules ahead of time, it would be even better.

    I have always thought it was the campaigns hashing out the ground rules that has made the result so stilted?

    That said, I think this debate is turning out more debate-y than I expected.

  199. 199.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Amir Khalid: Also most of the time she was on the Wal-Mart board, Sam Walton was still with us. He passed in 1992, the same year Hillary left the board.

  200. 200.

    magurakurin

    5 weeks out from Iowa and Sanders still has no specifics of his single payer plan other than his shitty 50 state idea form 2013. Single payer is a good thing, but he has no plan and no fucking idea how to get there. And the finger pointing is REALLY getting old.

  201. 201.

    Thoughtful Today

    “Build on it and fix it,” Hillary states.

    Which is Sanders’ plan except instead of increasing regulations on insurers, it’s to throw Single Payer into the mix. It’s both a sound moral goal and fiscally responsible.

    Corporate insurers and some Billionaires don’t care for the moral and fiscally responsible path to Single Payer. Hillary isn’t serving those _without_ healthcare. She’s serving money.

    Someone get her a copy of Matthew 25! STAT!

  205. 205.

    jl

    @RaflW: Good point. There is overall debate format, and the specific goody two shoes green light red light stop talking debate traffic rules. I confused the two in my comment. I think the candidates are only involved in hashing out and agreeing to the latter.

  208. 208.

    Davebo

    O’Malley is proud of his kids and so is his wife. And he had to borrow a lot of money to send his kids to college. I’m not buying that.

  209. 209.

    Thoughtful Today

    Will Hillary spout her nonsense about why poor kids don’t get free State College because … Trump’s kids?

    Congrats to O’Malley for talking about all the other associated costs of education.

    Hillary has NO idea what rent in a College town costs on minimum wage, she’s completely disconnected from the economic realities of the vast majority of Americans.

  210. 210.

    JPL

    O’Malley’s tendency to embarrass his children because they went to college and Daddy footed the bill, is getting old.

  211. 211.

    Thoughtful Today

    Oh, and Hillary, you know who falls for demagogues like Trump?

    People without College educations.

  212. 212.

    Adam L Silverman

    This Levesque guy’s voice could put somebody jacked up on Red Bull and Four Loko (cough Governor O’Malley cough) into a coma.

  215. 215.

    jl

    @Thoughtful Today: I agree, but as a current slightly pro Sanders person, and at 50 bucks, one his mega-donors, I think Sanders needs to do a better job of explaining how we get from here to there. I wish Raddatz had asked about that.

    I think Raddatz threw up a failed attempt at a TAX HIKE gotcha question and failed. I wish Sanders would have just responded to by saying what he has said in his stump speeches: We pay more now than any other advanced economy, single payer is more efficient, and with no private premiums, people will pay less. He’s so good at offering canned bits of his stump speech, so why did he not?

    OK, Sanders is doing good at countering HRC’s cite of bogus WSJ estimate of single payer cost of Sanders proposal. OK, Sanders finally spat out the relevant part of his stump speech. Good.

  217. 217.

    Thoughtful Today

    !!!

    Oh, Dear God, Hillary has NO idea at the economic realities facing those trying to pay for PRIVATE health insurance and College educations.

  219. 219.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks.

    Yemen has had a complicated history for a long time, as you indicate. The case can certainly be made we need to make an effort there. The question is, though, whether being part of Saudi Arabia’s (apparent) decimation of the country (coupled with the apparently brutal embargo) serves our interests.

    I don’t know…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  221. 221.

    Thoughtful Today

    …

    Why doesn’t Hillary support Mothers?!!!

    She probably doesn’t even prefer Apple Pie over Peach Pie!

  222. 222.

    jl

    @Davebo: Yes, they have. But I think the candidates by themselves could spontaneously organize a better debate than the moderators. But maybe we disagree.

  223. 223.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @jl:

    By the end, Sanders came out on cooperate on destroying Daesh first, then work on dealing with Assad later, and probably not by trying for abrupt and complete regime change.

    This, I think, has it completely backwards. We need to deal with the Assad question first, and then unite to fight Daesh. The latter doesn’t have any outside supporters, while Assad does (Russia and Iran). While the question of Assad and the Syrian Civil War lingers, everything we do against Daesh is going to be disjointed.

    Fortunately, it sounds as if the Obama administration and everyone else is making serious progress on the Assad front. All of the throat clearing over the last week or so makes me think that We’re approaching some sort of deal in which the Russians agree to punt Assad to some safe haven where he won’t be prosecuted (probably in Russia) while the Alawite faction gets some sort of influence in a power sharing agreement. I have no idea if that will be enough to cool off the civil war, but I think it’s definitely the way to go. If Syria can put together a united anti-Daesh front, beating them there becomes a whole lot easier.

    It will mean tolerating a less than wonderful governmental alternative for Syria, but an actual democracy that isn’t run by thugs was never in the cards. Getting Assad out of the picture both saves face for international actors that opposed him (like, say, us) and takes out an especially bad irritant locally.

  227. 227.

    jl

    @Davebo:

    ” I’m thinking trap doors are the only answer. ”

    I agree. For the candidates at the GOP debates, for the moderators at the Democratic debates.

  229. 229.

    schrodinger's cat

    OT but related: I thought it was not possible for me to dislike Ted Cruz more, I was wrong. The little shit wants to get rid of the OPT (Optional Practical Training) for international students, where by they can work for a year in the US after they graduate.

  231. 231.

    jl

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: OK. But this is a debate post. Probably best to argue our own proposals and wisdom on a Dr. Silverman Syria post.

    Edit: and if AS still reading, I’d love a post on Yeman. I have some Yemeni neighbors and they have been giving me their opinion. They think Saudi Arabia attempts to subdue Houthis will fail like all the other attempts by all the other outsiders and it is a stupid waste.

    Edit: And I politely request AS solve Yemen in his post, since the Yemeni neighbors have invited me to visit their family farm in Yemen when it is safe to go.

  233. 233.

    Davebo

    And what’s with the analysis by Stephie et all in during commercial breaks.

    Wait till it’s over guys. You’re wasting time that should be given to the candidates.

    Or is it just a case of ABC not being able to sell enough ads?

  235. 235.

    Mike J

    @Davebo:

    But what did you call your SuperPac?

    Whatever they independently want to call themselves, since it would be illegal to coördinate with them.

  236. 236.

    CaseyL

    I’m surprised by how…lively the debate is. The candidates are talking over the moderators and over each other, and the moderators are talking over the candidates.

  241. 241.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Break for commercials. I’ll come back later to enjoy the preceding 239 comments, but right now I’d just like to note that (a) these moderators are terrible, especially Charlie Pierce’s old pal Martha Radish, and (b) ABC’s streaming coverage sucks. Really, it’s almost 2016 and they can’t coordinate their online and broadcast coverage? And what’s with all the Hillary watch parties getting so much coverage during breaks? Are there no Sanders people to interview? And finally, could they possibly be any more dismissive of Martin O’Malley? Just awful.

    But the candidates themselves are fine.

  247. 247.

    CaseyL

    How to deal with the “chill wind” of the Ferguson effect?

    Jeez. How about cops stop shooting/tasing/beating to death unarmed people?

    Honest to FSM, it’s not rocket science.

  249. 249.

    Thoughtful Today

    magurakurin,

    I want to acknowledge your participation in the earlier thread to reach out to Bernie supporters:

    Clinton supporter magurakurin: “The hardcore Sanders people are absolutely delusional, but in the end they won’t matter a whit.”

    Because listening to _another_ Clinton supporter tell Bernie supporters, who represent easily a fifth to a third of the Democratic Party, that, “in the end they won’t matter a whit”, is exactly how I think Clinton will treat that fraction of the Democratic Party’s goals and values.

    Classic Clinton Math. As in: Voters don’t matter.

    Now lets sing the “Superdelegates mean regular Democratic Party voters are only 1/10,000th of a person”!

  255. 255.

    schrodinger's cat

    @jl: I knew a Yemeni student in grad school, he was such a gentle soul. He was devout, would say his prayers regularly and very good at physics too. He went back to Yemen, after graduating. Wonder where he is now.

  260. 260.

    Adam L Silverman

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I don’t think so. What Saudi is doing is in Saudi’s interest. They quietly stirred up trouble there for years in pursuit of their interests, as they’ve been doing in Syria and other places, and at the same time they claim they’re partnering with us or others to resolve the problems. Eventually something has to give.

  261. 261.

    magurakurin

    @Thoughtful Today: dude, I’m not reaching out to anyone. Your vote is your own. The Sanders campaign officially became a shit show on Friday led by that ass clown Tad Devine. If people still want to vote for Sanders, I don’t give a shit. He isn’t going to win no matter what you or I say on some blog. The difference between me and you is that I have no illusions of who I am. Nobody. I don’t matter beyond my own vote. But you keep plugging away, slugger.

  263. 263.

    Thoughtful Today

    Clinton supporter efgoldman missed the memo that the entire industrialized world has arguably better health care systems than the one Clinton’s Corporate Insurer friends will ever offer.

    Bernie’s correct, and a moral person would acknowledge this is a fight worth fighting.

    Shame on the Democratic Party for it’s still grossly regressive corporate insurance plans.

    But, hey, an old man like you has yours, so all these Bernie kids, sure, I can see why you have nothing but contempt for a modern health care system. You might have to sit next to a ‘poor’ in the waiting room.

  264. 264.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman:

    ” What about the moderators at the GOP debates as well? ”

    My Yemeni neighbors showed me pix of their farm in the old country. It looks really pretty and food sounds great. Would you please solve Yemen in a post soon? I want to visit.

    Edit: Sorry, my mind wandered. Yes, that would be a great plan to trap door both. Then no more dumb GOP debates. You are so good at solving problems.

  265. 265.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jl: I’ll do something up over the next few days. In a nutshell the problem set has five components, the first four of which are the exact same ones that the British faced in the 1950s:
    1) An unreliable strongman ally in Aden
    2) An al Awlaki problem
    3) A tribal problem
    4) A sectarian problem
    and the one the Brits didn’t face
    5) A Saudi problem

    More to come during the week. I need to find the report I wrote on this back in 2011 and reread it first.

  268. 268.

    magurakurin

    @Adam L Silverman: He’s a sharp guy. I don’t always agree with his politics, but he knows about how things work in the world in a way I can never know. I enjoy his perspectives.

  272. 272.

    Felonius Monk

    @efgoldman:

    All Baud is divided in three parts.

    Would that be: Baud the Father, Baud the Son, and Baud the Holey Ghost; or the Baud, the Baudier, and the Baudest? or even Baud the Good, Baud the Bad, and Baud the Ugly.

    ETA: or Three Faces of Baud

  275. 275.

    Thoughtful Today

    Yes, efgoldman , I assure you I take your vote very seriously. Your vote for Hillary means no free health care for the poor, no serious living wage, and no free State College or Universities.

    Yes, you’re vote I take _very_ seriously as I know a lot of Americans will be disadvantaged because of it.

    But, hey, Billionaire Walton Heir’s get cheap labor with no Unions! So I’m sure those that got paid in Walmart stock will do very well.

    Priorities, priorities, priorities.

  276. 276.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Thoughtful Today: No, she recognized something that I’ve not previously heard stated by any national leader in either party: That our foreign policy, in this case in the Middle East, has tried to pursue two competing objectives at the same time 1) supporting strongmen and 2) promoting our ideals of liberty and self determination, which has too often become a call for regime change. As I wrote here the other day, and as I’ve written in policy papers for senior level review, we have a problem that our too often reliance on “Our Bastards”, which really begins with the Cold War fear of the domino theory of Communist expansion, is at odds with the ideals we promote. And everyone knows it and it is constantly getting us in trouble because the two are incompatible.

  277. 277.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks. I am looking forward to your post. Most of what I know about inside Yemen politics and sectarian tribal issues, until I met the Yemeni neighbors, is from Lang’s blog too.

  278. 278.

    RaflW

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Gawd, O’Malley’s starting to sound like Chauncey Gardiner.

    I’ve seen flashes of Ben Carson in him. Not on substance (since Carson has none), but weird detached robotic style.
    Actually, his answer to the stupid question on first spouses has reanimated him a bit.

  279. 279.

    Thoughtful Today

    FACTS:

    efgoldman, as you’re a Clinton supporter, if you’re as old as you insist you are, why don’t you explain to the young Bernie supporters here why you should get the privilege of socialized health care but they don’t deserve it because …

    You got yours, fuck everyone else, amirite!?

  281. 281.

    Thoughtful Today

    “WHAT CONGRESS IS GOING TO GO ALONG WITH IT?”

    A moral one.

    I’ll start with a moral Democratic Party.

    Baby steps, efgoldman , baby steps.

    Perhaps you could start by hugging a puppy.

    We’ll work up to you thinking healthcare for the poors is moral in small increments.

  282. 282.

    RaflW

    Clinton is full-on running in the general election. She has just moved beyond this small stage in her closing, totally leaving Bernie and Martin in the sandbox.

    (eta: I don’t say that as a Hillbot, but just my reaction to her closing moment)

  284. 284.

    Ruckus

    @Thoughtful Today:
    Hey asswipe, that socialized medicine that you talk about, Medicare, that isn’t free. First of all you pay a monthly amount to have it. And that is after putting money into it for decades. Second it does not cover everything or all the costs. It could if the country wanted to pay for it but it does not.
    You really need to understand what is going on before you start going on. You currently don’t.

  285. 285.

    RaflW

    @mollyesque
    Hillary won the debate again. Not news. This is pretty boring.

    To which, I say:

    @Snowman55403
    In that way that not driving the US into a ditch at 80 m.p.h. turns out to be boring. #DemDebate

  286. 286.

    chopper

    @efgoldman:

    note especially here that sanders doesn’t appear to give a single shit about downticket races or the party in general. he doesn’t seem to think that he’ll need a more democratic congress or any sort of party infrastructure to have even a meager chance in hell of getting any of his big promises passed.

    apparently president sanders will rule by executive fiat.

  287. 287.

    gwangung

    “WHAT CONGRESS IS GOING TO GO ALONG WITH IT?”

    A moral one.

    I’ll start with a moral Democratic Party.

    This is a 20 year plan, fought on multiple battlegrounds, necessitating billions and billions dollars more than we have now. In essence, a grassroots strategy, a ground upwards strategy.

    And all we hear from you are top down tactics that do not address what you want and are useless without a grassroots effort.

    Again, do better. Your paymasters need to get better bang for the buck.

  288. 288.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @chopper: You’ve missed his “political revolution” part of his stump speech?

    He’s trying to do the impossible, but there’s a method to it. If he somehow were to win the nomination, he would work hard to have coat-tails. Probably harder than Clinton.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  289. 289.

    chopper

    @Thoughtful Today:

    “A moral one”

    you are aware of what the U.S. Congress is, no?

    this sounds like the ron paul people. when you point out that president paul would have zero chance of getting a thing done they say “yeah but he would start a national conversation”. cause that and two bucks’ll buy you a cup of coffee.

  290. 290.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @gwangung:

    Your paymasters need to get better bang for the buck.

    My impression as well. Gop ratfucker, right? The other Berniebot, Applejinx, is real, imo, just excitable.

  292. 292.

    Thoughtful Today

    Clinton supporter Ruckus: “Hey asswipe,”.

    I appreciate that you’re an honest Clinton supporter willing to express your _feelings_.

    But your math doesn’t have much empathy in it.

    You know how you get empathy into math?

    It usually starts with someone capable of enough empathy that they don’t start conversations with, “Hey asswipe”. Your preferred candidate, for instance, is capable of at least _faking_ empathy.

    Her superpower is pandering! Her quip about the Force perfectly captures a zeitgeist.

    Not a zeitgeist that will provide the least amongst us with healthcare or a realistic path toward college, but wow! What a panderer!

  293. 293.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Thoughtful Today: Dude, you spent the whole thread willfully misinterpreting Clinton’s statements and lobbing rhetorical molotov cocktails at people you perceive as Clinton supporters. You got push back. Grow up and accept that if you throw elbows, people will throw them back. You are no martyr, so get off your cross.

  296. 296.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @efgoldman: Just a guess on my part.

    All I have to go on is the reporting. Bernie seems to be working hard to fill arenas while Hillary seems to be taking a more leisurely, slow-and-steady approach to campaigning this time. She’s a big fan of “listening tours”. She’s has lots of “friends” and supporters who will crawl over glass for her so she doesn’t need to work as hard for support. Bernie is a worker.

    Bernie, not being a Democrat, would have to work much harder for support of the party apparatus than her. I think that would translate into her not working as hard for every vote in down-ballot races as she probably should.

    Just a guess though.

    While I think he would work hard, I don’t think he would be as successful as HRC in having coat-tails. (Someone said recently that history shows that women elect presidents.)

    Since I don’t expect the post-NH races to be close, unless Hillary has some health scare or other disaster, all of this is academic. But it’s important that she fight for the nomination, and it’s important for O’Malley to fight to do as well as he can if he has hopes of being important in national politics going forward.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  297. 297.

    chopper

    @efgoldman:

    sanders has been in congress for a long-ass time, and over that time and up to the present day he’s really done little to help get democrats elected. maybe he’ll find religion upon winning the nom but he doesn’t really seem at all interested in building much in terms of democratic infrastructure and relationships.

  298. 298.

    Thoughtful Today

    Clinton supporter chopper, are you seriously saying that the Democratic Party doesn’t have moral members?

    Seriously?

    I don’t _completely_ disagree, but wouldn’t you say there’s _at_least_ a dozen to twenty moral Democratic Party members in Congress? 21 if you count Bernie!-)

    Are you saying there’s not even that many? I’d have hoped there were at least a hundred or more.

    Golly, Clinton supporters really _are_ jaded.

    Do you think your support for Clinton is part of your cynicism?

    On that score, I completely sympathize. After paying attention to the Clintons’ regressive right-wing policies for so many decades, I can absolutely understand why you have such a dim view of humanity.

    But, still, best Republicans in the country, amirite?!

  299. 299.

    Mike J

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    All I have to go on is the reporting. Bernie seems to be working hard to fill arenas while Hillary seems to be taking a more leisurely, slow-and-steady approach to campaigning this time.

    Hillz is working her ass off right now. President Dean will tell you that screaming fans don’t mean shit. Having a Louisa county, IA campaign director who recruits a captain for each of the five polling places wins elections, provided you repeat it for the other 98 counties in Iowa. And in NH too.

  302. 302.

    chopper

    i don’t have a dim view of humanity as much as I have a dim view of congress. sanders getting himself elected isn’t much in the way of improving that.

    if there are a few dozen “moral” democrats on the hill, well I have to remind you that there are 535 members of congress. with those sorts of numbers sanders is destined to get absolutely fucking zero things passed.

    if sanders had a history of working to get people other than himself elected and to improve the infrastructure of the party I’d be a great deal more confident in his prospects as president. but it’s hard for me to believe that a guy who’s been publicly shitting on the Democratic Party for decades is suddenly going to help turn congress more democratic. from an electoral standpoint he’s the democrats’ Ron Paul.

  303. 303.

    Ruckus

    @chopper:
    This is my main issue with Sanders. Most of his policies are fine, his ideas on how to get there are at best weak, but mostly non existent. I’ll give him credit that many will not, he does caucus and vote with dems better than some with a D after their name. But what has he done in the Senate or in the house towards his policies? Certainly nothing of note or we’d be hearing/heard about it.

  304. 304.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ruckus: His vision of a country is a lovely one. I would like to live there. In the meantime, I want someone who can defend what we have and move us forward. I don’t see Sanders as the best person to do that. To get Sander’s world we need a FDR era Dem majority. While we work toward that, I want competent governance from people whose instincts are left of center.

  306. 306.

    Thoughtful Today

    Omnes Omnibus says: “His vision of a country is a lovely one. I would like to live there.”

    We can get your paperwork started to move to … any number of Democratic Socialist countries, Omnes Omnibus. I’m sure you’d love it! I’ll help you pack!

    You could move to the UK for the full Socialist healthcare experience! I’ve seen it in action and it’s really quite remarkable. Fast, effective, and amazingly efficient.

    Or Germany, you could finally finish that obscure college degree you really always wanted. If you lived far enough North you could visit Denmark on the weekends. But baby steps, I don’t want you to freak out at how big the world really is.

    Or how different reality is from your imagination.

    Think bigger, Omnes.

  307. 307.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Thoughtful Today: Read the rest of my comment about the practicalities of achieving that goal. Then read the part about what I said we should do in the meantime. Then fuck off.

  308. 308.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Thoughtful Today: I’ve lived in Britain and Germany. That is part of the reason that I see Sanders’ vision as one I support. His map to getting there is the thing I doubt.

  309. 309.

    Applejinx

    @raven: Hi! I was entering data :)
    Thanks to Hillary’s intervention: clearly showing who really runs the DNC. Thank you Hillary! She didn’t have to let us have a campaign back, she could have sat on her hands. Good judgement by Hillary, and deeply deeply appreciated by all us data peons :)
    And then I was watching the debate at a Bernie debate watch party, but folks seem to be having fun in this thread just fine.

  310. 310.

    Applejinx

    @Thoughtful Today: and TT: don’t be so scathing about ‘best Republicans’. Back in the day we had ‘best Republicans’. Ike was a Republican.

    Rather than crank up the bickering and namecalling (which our candidates are NOT doing, thanks Hil and Bernie), we gotta establish a grassroots consensus and then get the politicians to start enacting it.

    Our system is SO rigged and screwed up, so completely out of control and in the tank for the 0.01%, that there is LOTS of room for improvement. If you haven’t run the numbers you have no idea how much money is being wasted, literally channeled straight to the rich and into the Cayman Islands. Things don’t have to get all that redistribution-y to free up a hell of a lot of budget to enable all the stuff we want.

    Republicans are being pushed, by Trump, in the same ‘rich are abusing the system’ direction that we’re pushing Dems. They are just also being turned into hysterical racist mobs. But part of Trump’s message is to throw out the corrupt rich Washington pols and their special interests and rich friends and unite behind the ONE rich friend (Trump) who will beat up all the bad rich people and create jobs for all!

    The one common point is, everybody knows the system’s rigged by now. It’s just that people think it’s like 40 to 1 rigged, which is unfair, and it’s really like 400 to 1 rigged. You have no IDEA how much capital is frozen up in the assets of the insanely rich, uninvested because consumer demand is flat and small business is easily stomped by trusts and megacorporations making that investment unwise.

    The money is there, on such a massive scale. We all know it, but the truth is even more extreme than we think.

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