Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

This really is a full service blog.

In short, I come down firmly on all sides of the issue.

You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

Consistently wrong since 2002

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

DeSantis transforms Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

This blog will pay for itself.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

I really should read my own blog.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

No one could have predicted…

You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / More Debate Open Thread

More Debate Open Thread

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From the Guardian liveblog:

Next question [immediately after the break]: the economy. Clinton strolls on stage halfway the moderator’s question.

Sanders answers first:

We have a rigged economy. Are we better off today than we were when Bush left office? Absolutely. But as you’ve indicated, people all over America … are working longer hours for lower wages.

He says the billionaire class is going to start paying their fair share. Women should not be making 79 cents on the dollar compared. Real unemployment 10%, youth unemployment off the charts. We rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, we create 13 million jobs. I’m gonna have a tax on Wall Street speculation to make certain that public universities are tuition free.

O’Malley goes next. He says Marylanders understand that regulating capitalism well means better including everybody. We increased education funding by 37%, only state without an increase to college tuition. And we’re moving our economy to a clean electric future with solar industry jobs. These things aren’t amorphous goals.

He’s really running through his memorized bit. He says he’s got a 15 point plan to get people working in better jobs. Then he wraps it up.

Clinton answers third, with a little kumbaya for her rivals.

If people feel the game is rigged, that has consequences. I think it’s great sitting up here with the senator and the governor talking about these issues, because you’re not going to hear this from any of the Republicans.

The central tenet of her plan is to get wages up, including a fair-pay act for women and new payment schemes that make employees greater stakeholders in their companies. She gives a shout to Hillary Clinton dot com.

The moderator cuts her off a bit and asks about her longstanding ties to Wall Street. Should corporate America love Clinton, he asks?

“Absolutely. Everybody should!”

She gets applause for that, and says that she wants to create more small business jobs.” If people in the private sector know what I fought for,” and they want to be part of building our economy so it works for everyone, “more power to them,” she says.

ETA, 11pm: I need to step away from the keyboard for a couple hours. Talk amongst yourselves…

Reader Interactions

86Comments

  2. 2.

    Big R

    My problem with Clinton’s answer on her contributors is that even though it’s consistent with what political scientists know about campaign contributions, it’s not consistent with what voters think about campaign contributions. Trying to educate Teh Kidz about the basics of the literature has left me pretty convinced that that answer won’t fly in the long run.

  3. 3.

    Davebo

    I was seriously considering retiring to New Hampshire but now that I’ve learned it’s a hotbed of heroin addicts I’m thinking Idaho.

  5. 5.

    Anne Laurie

    @Davebo:

    I was seriously considering retiring to New Hampshire but now that I’ve learned it’s a hotbed of heroin addicts I’m thinking Idaho.

    At least from New Hampshire you can easily travel to Massachusetts!

  14. 14.

    FlyingToaster

    @Davebo: The whole state isn’t a hotbed of opiate fiends. That’s just the stretch from Manchester to Portsmouth…

    The biggest problem with NH is their whole tax policy; property taxes and user fees. No sales tax, no income tax, but insanely high property taxes. Toll Roads. And any opportunity to soak the tourists :) This year they’ll be hurting — no snow means no skiers means no money.

  18. 18.

    Yutsano

    @FlyingToaster: The winters have completely flopped. Last year the Northeast got hammered and the Northwest got nothing. Now it’s totally different. Climate change is being weird.

  20. 20.

    jl

    HRC should have flung that gotcha back in Raddatz face.

    “You got problems with a WH man cave? That is so sexist!”

  26. 26.

    dmsilev

    Dear George Snuffleupagus: Since you and your colleagues don’t let the Democrats weigh in after the GOP shitstorms, why exactly are you reading GOP tweets on the air verbatim?

  28. 28.

    cmorenc

    THE PROBLEM with this debate isn’t the substance – it’s that hardly anyone is watching it outside the progressive blog community or political junkies – on the Saturday night 6 days before Christmas, competing with several football games and people out Christmas shopping, etc. This sparse dem debate schedule and timing was engineered deliberately by DNC chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and Clinton allies on the DNC.

    Consider that the process (as opposed to the substance) of the Republican debates has been far more democratic, open, and designed to attract large audiences than the Democratic debates have been – even though of course the substance (and character) of the actual GOP candidates has been egregiously dishonest, sociopathic, callous, xenophobically racist, and outright dangerous.

    Pleas please PLEASE can we not dump the disastrous Debbie Wasserman-Shultz as DNC chair (for ample reasons completely aside from her dumbfuck handling of the data breach from a public-relations standpoint).

  36. 36.

    jl

    There were some examples of the type of foreign policy questioning I hate tonight.

    “What is your plan for complicated mess X? Will you shot down Soviet MIGs and be a real man?”
    “Here is my plan… we won’t need to shot down Soviet MIGs and risk WWIII”
    “But what if that doesn’t work, will you threaten to shoot down Soviet MIGs and be a real man?”
    “OK, then we try this…”
    “But what if that doesn’t work, will you threaten to shoot down Soviet MIGs and be a real man?”
    “OK, then we try that… But it’s really a good idea to avoid having to threaten to shoot down Soviet MIGs”
    “But what if that doesn’t work, will you threaten to shoot down Soviet MIGs and be a real man?”
    “Then we try the other… look it will take some time and negotiation…”
    “But what if that doesn’t work, will you threaten to shoot down Soviet MIGs and be a real man?”

  39. 39.

    Davebo

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Look, I’m not saying Baud wants to eat your children. He just can’t help himself. It’s a disease.

    Now for sure some may be better off if Baud is elected and chooses to consume their children. But what about those few who really want to keep the kids around.

    So if you don’t want your kids, go ahead, vote Baud.

  40. 40.

    jl

    As in all previous debates, Baud’s silent strength was very impressive. It inspires confidence. Baud is steady and consistent. It is reassuring.

  47. 47.

    gene108

    No Star Wars Episode VII thread?

    If the Democrats wanted people to watch this debate they would not have held it on a Saturday a week before Christmas, when many people are out Christmas shopping, or watching Star Wars Episode VII or watching Bowl Games.

    I guess the DNC plan is to let the Republicans get all the attention and then, at some point in 2016, the Democrats will jump out and say, “hey, look at us! We’re running for President too! And we have ideas! So pay attention to us now!”

  53. 53.

    RaflW

    Reposting from dead thread:

    @mollyesque
    Hillary won the debate again. Not news. This is pretty boring.

    To which, I say: In that way that not driving the US into a ditch at 80 m.p.h. turns out to be boring.

  54. 54.

    Brachiator

    @cmorenc:

    Consider that the process (as opposed to the substance) of the Republican debates has been far more democratic, open, and designed to attract large audiences than the Democratic debates have been

    That has nothing to do with scheduling, and the popularity of the GOP debates has everything to do with Trump. Otherwise, they would be exactly as pointlessly dull as the Democratic debates.

    As for democratic and open, you have more dopes running for the GOP nomination, including people who should have dropped out long ago, but who are still around because of plutocrat money (especially Jeb!).

    Any debate this deep into December has a lot of competition. People who are not political junkies, like my sister, are out watching the new Star Wars movie. And I was out having dinner. And from some of the dumb questions asked, this was the far wiser course.

    Also, there is not much reason for blaming the media for the lack of quality of the questions. Both political parties long ago did everything they could to make sure that the debates were safe for the candidates.

  55. 55.

    Amir Khalid

    From what I could tell by following the Guardian liveblog, nothing happened or was said that was really new, or that would substantially alter the shape of the Democratic nom race. Is that about right?

  56. 56.

    Felonius Monk

    @FlyingToaster: Or he could come to New York where we not only have insanely high property taxes, but have an income tax and high sales tax to go along with it.

  57. 57.

    jl

    @Amir Khalid: I disagree.Some good debate tonight that clarified their differences issues that are rarely discussed and very important. Like the tension between stability in ME and regime change and reform, and its role in the current Syria mess.

    But, who cares about that? Too wonky.

    Edit: also some progress on TAX HIKE gotcha issue that might allow campaign coverage to get beyond that. Probably about the time I learn to flap my arms and fly away.

  64. 64.

    Felonius Monk

    @efgoldman:

    What possible value does he see in DWS?

    From something I read a while back, Obama wanted to get rid of her some time ago, but she has some kind of I Can Keep the Job card. Don’t remember the details, but if I find it again, I’ll flag it.

  65. 65.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @efgoldman: FWIW I think it is a bad idea to have a sitting elected official in the position. A retired pol or someone between elected gigs would be far better. Or a campaign pro.

  67. 67.

    Mike J

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You know who pays attention to substantive debates this far out in the election season? People like us. No one else.

    I’m more or less like us and I didn;t pay any attention to it.

  71. 71.

    Mike J

    Patton Oswalt ‏@pattonoswalt 2h2 hours ago
    Guys, it’s hard Live-tweeting this. The verbal pig-fucking of the Republican Debate? A comedian’s picnic

  73. 73.

    RaflW

    @gene108:

    I guess the DNC plan is to let the Republicans get all the attention and then, at some point in 2016, the Democrats will jump out and say, “hey, look at us! We’re running for President too! And we have ideas! So pay attention to us now!”

    Well, the DNC has its head firmly up their own posterior, but: The vast majority of voters are in fact tuned out. I say, let the Repubs be as vicious, terrible and stupid as they are being for now. Clinton is clearly just treating this set of debates as a warm-up. This is all just her debate prep for next fall.

    Again, I have never thought of myself as a Hillbot, but I am seeing the playbook more clearly. Enough debates to not look like it’s a total freeze-out. Enough debates that she doesn’t get soft ahead of the face-off against the last idiot standing on the GOP side, but at airtimes that only true diehards and paid media morans will watch.

    OK. Let’s see how it works. Full frontal war against the GOP right now would be dumb and expensive. Let the repubs have their Wile E Coyote anvil moments with Bugs bunny off screen.

  75. 75.

    David Koch

    @Mike J: Who in their right mind watches a 3 hour debate on a football night? The only thing I did was occasionally flip though my tweet feed, but not much.

  76. 76.

    David Koch

    @SiubhanDuinne: I’m curious, “Taxi Driver” was famously filmed on 13th and 3rd in the mid 70s. Was the neighborhood in your day as grimy, bleak, and dangerous, or did things go bad afterwards?

  78. 78.

    David Koch

    So going through my twiter feed and the sandernistas that always scream about everything are oddly silent. Either the debate was past their bed time or the revolution didn’t come.

  80. 80.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @efgoldman: Okay, I suspect that you are like me. I look at all games to see how they affect the Packers. You do that with the Pats, yes? I may like or dislike various players or teams, but still it’s about the Packers.

  82. 82.

    magurakurin

    @David Koch: no, they are up freeping polls. Check out this one

    10,000 votes and Bernie won by 92%. What a bunch of ass clowns. They seem more like lost little children every day. Freeping polls, yeah, that was a thing…a decade ago.

  83. 83.

    mclaren

    The central tenet of her plan is to get wages up, including a fair-pay act for women and new payment schemes that make employees greater stakeholders in their companies.

    And how exactly the fuck is that supposed to happen when Hillary Clinton does not support a federal increase in the minimum wage?

    Explain that one to me, buckaroo.

    “I support an increase in the minimum wage, but I think we need to leave it up to the individual states.” That’s what Hillary said in the last debate. Meaning: Hillary supports doing nothing. Absolutely fucking nothing. Unless the federal government mandates higher minimum, it will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever happen.

    Read through the details of Hiillary’s proposals and you realize it’s all meaningless feel-good pabulum. Hillary Clinton does not support doing a single goddamn substantive thing to help the middle class. Hillary Clinton does not propose passing a single federal law to help anyone who rich bankers, thieving Wall Street crime lords, giant monopolistic corporations, and greedy corrupt defense contractors and their for-profit privatize prison industry buddies.

    Vote for Hillary for Bush’s fifth term.

  84. 84.

    mclaren

    @RaflW:

    OK. Let’s see how it works. Full frontal war against the GOP right now would be dumb and expensive. Let the repubs have their Wile E Coyote anvil moments with Bugs bunny off screen.

    The Repubs have already strapped their asses to a giant Acme rocket and lit the fuse and blasted up into sky where the rocket explodes, and the Repubs are now hurtling down screaming into the canyon at the botto mof which a 10-foot-deep crater marks the last effort of Wile E. Coyote.

    At this point, all the Demos have to do is stand there and go “Meep meep,” like the roadrunner. The public will catch on eventually.

  85. 85.

    mclaren

    @David Koch:

    Who in their right mind watches a 3 hour debate on a football night?

    Who in their right mind watches either the Democratic debate or a moronic football game when a great movie like Crimson Peak is playing?

    Guillermo del Toro knocks it out of the ballpark once again. Naturally, the public remains indifferent. Typical. After all, America is the shithole country that couldn’t be bothered to pay attention to the original Star Trek when it was originally on…

  86. 86.

    Applejinx

    @David Koch: Why would Bernie people be screaming? Hillary, who controls the DNC, restored access to the data we need to turn out ALL Democrats and keep the data we all use, current.

    We had an awesome debate, the tone was set right away by Bernie apologizing for his overenthusiastic staffer and vowing to fire anybody else who breaks rules, and Hillary accepted that. We know Hillary is too smart to screw that up so we’re all on the same team again.

    This is how you win elections (both for Bernie, and for the national election). Plus, at the debate party we were at, us Sandernistas were all marvelling at how everybody was trying to out-Bernie Bernie. They were trying to stake out positions that sounded just as progressive as Bernie. We want that.

    To the ever-skeptical Thoughtful Today and those who are quick to spot where Hillary is making empty promises: on the one hand, for her to make such promises means she identifies voters there. With enough established progressive voters, she WILL continue to pursue that course in office if she wins.

    More relevantly to bernistas, the more the other two candidates normalize this discourse, the more likely it is that it will be considered a given, the obvious thing. We’re all shoving the Overton window FAST in the direction we need as a country. Successfully.

    We should ALL be happy that our candidates are so effective, good and smart. Nobody should be unhappy with how the debate went, except maybe Trump.

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