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Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

Joe Lieberman disappointingly reemerged to remind us that he’s still alive.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

Let’s finish the job.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Consistently wrong since 2002

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

How can republicans represent us when they don’t trust women?

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

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Don’t expect peaches from an apple tree.

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Open Thread: Tangled Web Edition

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I had no opinion about the truth of reports that Peyton Manning took human growth hormone supplements until I read this:

Manning retains Ari Fleischer amid HGH allegations

Peyton Manning has enlisted the services of former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer amid allegations that the Denver Broncos quarterback was sent human growth hormone (HGH) while recovering from a neck injury in 2011.

The accusation stems from an investigation into the sports doping industry by Al Jazeera.

That settles it; he’s guilty.

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

122Comments

  4. 4.

    Cacti

    I like Wonkette’s take on it:

    “Peyton Manning Hires Ari Fleischer to Ensure No One Believes a Word He Says.”

  6. 6.

    Corner Stone

    The accusation stems from an investigation into the sports doping industry by Al Jazeera.

    I still have a moment of disconnect every time I see “Al Jazeera” associated with this story. When I first saw a headline blurb about “Al Jazeera Doping Scandal” for some reason I thought it was about terrorist groups drugging new recruits into their association.

  7. 7.

    Mathguy

    I am a huge cycling fan, and have watched so many of these guys deny such allegations out the yazoo it’s sickening. Given that pro football has a not-very-openly-acknowledged doping problem at least as great as cycling, I get very cynical listening to such denials. Bringing Ari on board? Yeah, he did it.

  9. 9.

    Corner Stone

    Don’t worry, guys. Ari’s got this handled. He plans to hold a presser, tell everyone that Peyton is not guilty and warn Americans to “watch what they say, watch what they do.”

  10. 10.

    Botsplainer

    My kids still haven’t left, and Macy’s is still relentlessly silent on fucking over my kid on a gift that she bought for him on Black Friday.

  11. 11.

    Corner Stone

    “Ari Fleischer’s ability to repeat a lie even after it’s been shown, repeatedly, to be false is what separates him from the amateurs.”

    That was how the website Slate.com described White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer last year.

    Democracy Now from 2003.

  13. 13.

    David Koch

    Ryan Braun was caught using PEDs and successfully overturned the test results by smearing the lowly urine collector as anti-Semitic Cubs fan

  17. 17.

    Big Ol Hound

    Except that the accuser has already fessed up to lying and records show he did not work for the clinic until 2013, two years after his claims. I’m not a Manning fan but this whole thing seems really trumped up.

  18. 18.

    Cacti

    He’s not named in any report that I know of, but the guy who I’m most suspicious of this season is Carson Palmer.

    Bounces back from the second devastating knee injury of his career and puts up career numbers across the board at age 36.

    Yeah, not buying it.

  22. 22.

    Gimlet

    And for additional open thread shocking news:

    Americans named President Barack Obama as their most admired man in the world in 2015, with Donald Trump earning the same share of admiration as Pope Francis, according to the results of the latest Gallup survey released Monday.

  25. 25.

    Linnaeus

    I watched the Al Jazeera report and I think the connection it made to Manning was probably the weakest part of the program. All they have is this guy’s word as opposed to, say, having Taylor Teagarden admitting on (hidden) camera that he takes PEDs.

    I do have to wonder, though, why Manning would go to an anti-aging clinic to treat a neck injury.

  27. 27.

    gene108

    Any ageless wonder that I see, playing sports, part of me assumes they might be doping and so I am not surprised to see guys getting caught.

    The sad thing is, if Ryan Howard was doping because after blowing out his Achilles and other injuries he still stinks.

  29. 29.

    raven

    @dedc79: Yea, I guess people liked it. Rick Derringer played some ass kicking guitar with Johnny Winter after being with the McCoys.

  30. 30.

    JPL

    @Linnaeus: I didn’t watch it, but Mannings comment about his wife’s privacy seemed odd to me. Why would she go there? He also admitted to going after five but not going after hours. After five is after hours.

  31. 31.

    Turgidson

    We’ll know for sure Manning is guilty and headed for a fall when Bloody Bill WRONG Kristol declares his innocence and that the scandal is behind him.

  35. 35.

    catclub

    Lance Armstrong vociferously denied it for about 10 years, right? The NFL drug testing regime is not considered state of the art. (kind of on purpose?)

    Who knows. But the smart money is betting…

  36. 36.

    Linnaeus

    @JPL:

    Yeah, that non-denial denial raises more questions than it answers. Manning’s stature is such that all he has to do is maintain doubt if he did in fact do what Al Jazeera claims he did.

  37. 37.

    RaflW

    Ari Fleischer, the remarkable speaking carbuncle on the ass of the Dubya admin. Nothing says you are a right wing moron quite like retaining him for disaster recovery comms.

  38. 38.

    David Koch

    @raven: most probably are, because they’re at the head of an authoritative culture. Also they make the most money, making them more sensitive to taxes and they were cuddled in college, not forced to think and to discover for themselves (Brady’s degree is “General Studies” – 26,000 students at Michigan and only 176 picked a “General Studies” degree).

    But there are some interesting exceptions. Joe Namath was a Democrat and made it to Nixon’s Enemies List. And Aaron Rodgers is so thoughtful (gays, mooslims, flying spaghetti monster), the former Berkeley player has to be progressive.

  39. 39.

    dr. bloor

    Fleischer is pretty wired into the NFL corporate behemoth. I suspect his hiring is at least partly driven by his ability to play nice with the tinpot dictators in the league office on Park Ave. It’s unlikely Manning much cares what Joe Sixpack thinks.

  41. 41.

    Mike J

    @dedc79:

    Chilton was 90% of the talent in that band, that’s for sure. I wouldn’t judge them from any recent incarnation.

    The guys from the Posies are very talented, but Big Star Mk II was still just the Alex Chilton backing band.

    Chris Bell’s solo album is very good too. I am the Cosmos is a great song.

  42. 42.

    JPL

    Has Roger called for an independent investigation yet? Most players have bulked up so quickly that you have to wonder why. If Peyton took HGH which was not banned in 2011, to aid in healing in surgery, I’d give him a pass.

    @Big Ol Hound: He could have had access to records. Peyton could have said his wife was not receiving deliveries from the clinic.

  43. 43.

    JPL

    If Peyton sues, then I’ll assume that’s he is innocent until proven guilty. Threatening to sue, means nothing.

  48. 48.

    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)

    @JPL:

    If Peyton took HGH which was not banned in 2011, to aid in healing in surgery, I’d give him a pass.

    There’s that and the fact that the source for the story has recanted, and has pointed out that he didn’t begin his internship at the clinic in question until 2013.

  49. 49.

    bystander

    @Amir Khalid:

    I’m shocked that as many Americans admire The Donald as admire the Pope.

    I bet the Venn diagram of that looks like a schematic for Gina Lollabrigida’s brassiere. Two big circles about three inches apart.

  51. 51.

    Joel

    @Big Ol Hound: Charlie Sly isn’t an accuser, he’s a perpetrator. Furthermore, Al-Jazeera claims to have employment records putting him at the Guyer Institute in 2011. Lastly, Manning is kind of a peripheral player in this case. I’d be interested to see what, if anything, happens to former Purdue players Dustin Keller and Mike Neal.

  52. 52.

    The Golux

    @dedc79:

    I like Big Star’s songs, but the production is quite unlovely. It’s a little better on the later stuff, but not as good as, say, Little Feat.

  53. 53.

    marduk

    @Big Ol Hound:

    when pressed to explain how his wife Ashley Manning was involved, the quarterback distanced himself from anything she received from the clinic and did not deny her being a patient there, saying only that the report “violated” her medical history and privacy.
    “Any medical treatments that my wife received, that’s her business,” he said. “That has nothing to do with me. Nothing that’s been sent to her or [that] my wife has used have I ever taken. Absolutely not. I have my treatments that I do, she may have hers and that is her business. There’s no connection between the two.”
    A spokesman for Manning confirmed to NFL Network reporter Ian Rapoport that Manning’s wife was a patient at the clinic and did have a prescription but wouldn’t confirm what it was, Rapoport said on Twitter.

    I wouldn’t hang your hat on Sly’s attmept to save his ass after the fact unless you believe there’s a legitimate reason Manning’s wife is getting HGH treatments from a sports drug clinic mailed to their house.

  54. 54.

    gbear

    @dedc79: I got turned on to Big Star when they were still around due to some reviews and columns written in an equipment geek magazine called Stereo Review that my grandma signed me up for when I was in high school. Their first two records were hard to find but eventually turned up in some used bins ( I still have the original vinyl). They were a great alternative to the hard rock stuff that I was listening to back then. They certainly weren’t of their time when they were around.

  55. 55.

    dedc79

    @The Golux: I think you’re right regarding the production – particularly on the first album. Not an easy thing to describe, but to my ears there’s not a lot of depth to the recording. It has a kind of flat sound. Not in the “out of tune sense.” More like the individual instruments don’t stand out at all.

  60. 60.

    Mike J

    @gbear: I started listening to Big Star after they had already broken up. When I was in high school I hung out at the Antenna Club in Memphis. Alex was playing with Panther Burns, but it wasn’t his band, more just hanging out and playing guitar for his friends. After that, he went back to playing solo shows. The era right before Feudalist Tarts is when I really started paying attention. After that I saw him play dozens of times, solo or with Big Star.

  61. 61.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @JPL: Somehow or other I foresee a different result of black people being denied justice time and again no matter how egregiously wrong the actions of certain members of law enforcement.

  62. 62.

    Germy

    I’ve seen TV infomercials for HGH, apparently targeted to women (the lady doc from the TV show “The Doctors” endorses it in the commercials)… typical infomercial: “Do you know that your body starts losing, etc., after the age of forty?”

    Sounds like a risky thing to take, but apparently it is unregulated?

  63. 63.

    Geoduck

    While Ari is well known to political junkies, I have to assume that most people don’t know him from Adam. So in strict PR terms it’s not like hiring him is automatically horrible. Morally is quite a different story.

  67. 67.

    lamh36

    @KateAronoff 29m29 minutes ago Millville, NJ
    Prosecutor McGinty says Rice should have known better before playing in the park, because he “looked older”

    @AriMelber 19m19 minutes ago
    Prosecutor in Rice case now saying:

    “He appeared to be much older than he really was…5″7, 170 lbs, size 12 shoes, XL men’s jacket.”

    Wow.

  70. 70.

    lamh36

    ‏@LiberalPhenom 23m23 minutes ago
    Ari Melber pointing out prosecutor admitted he recommended no charges. So prosecutor thought it was ok for police to MURDER a child.

    @JuanMThompson 34m34 minutes ago
    Prosecutor says straight up: “We don’t second guess police officers.” “It’s clear the officers were not criminal.”

    @PragObots 28m28 minutes ago
    McGinty even said that maybe #TamirRice was told earlier in the day not to play with that toy gun. WTF???

  71. 71.

    Carolus

    What’s troubling about the Al Jazeera report is it links Ryan Zimmerman and Ryan Howard–both MLB players who have faced repeated long stints on the IR–to a rather obscure clinic in Indiana.

    It’s also unclear what Manning’s wife would need HGH for-unless she’s a body builder or suffering from some sort of wasting disease.

    Also, Ari Fleischer. Seems to me if you’re innocent in this matter, you turn it over to the team of high-priced lawyers Manning has.

  72. 72.

    rikyrah

    In an OPEN CARRY STATE,

    a child was EXECUTED in less than 2 seconds.

    The pivotal question for me, since the beginning of this travesty is:

    HOW, did this obviously unqualified man, get a position on the Cleveland Police Department? For me, it was the key to why they have been so odious with this case. Blaming a CHILD for being MURDERED in less than 2 seconds. Nobody wanted to answer this obvious question, so they have been peddling hard at the coverup on this case, because the answer to that question would mean the loss of numerous jobs.

  73. 73.

    Hal

    @lamh36:

    “He appeared to be much older than he really was…5″7, 170 lbs, size 12 shoes, XL men’s jacket.”

    I forgot that legal loophole where deadly force is justified on the basis of how old someone looks. But I’m not surprised by any of this.

  74. 74.

    Keith G

    @Lamh36: In a better world, there would have been a criminal indictment, but a civil law suit is no small thing and it may be better at uncovering institutional rot.

  76. 76.

    A Ghost To Most

    @Mike J:

    So were you at the Antenna Club in 1991 when G.G. Allin performed, per “The Night G.G. Allin Came To Town”?

  77. 77.

    gbear

    @Mike J: I kind of quit following Chilton after the ‘Like Flies on Sherbert’ lp. That album was really difficult to love. I got to see him once in Minneapolis. His pick-up band included a drummer I knew who was playing in a speed-metal band and I can’t remember who the bassist was. He was mostly winging it on stage, obviously wanting to put his past behind him. I spent the show wishing I was up there drumming his Big Star hits, so I was obviously part of the problem Chilton was having with his audience. It must have been a bear trying to live down his own legacy.

  78. 78.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Keith G: Have civil lawsuits stopped any of this? Forgive my cynicism, but this was a child and they’ll just bury his memory under a pile of money too.

  79. 79.

    lamh36

    @Keith G:

    @MonieTalks_1 1m1 minute ago
    They’re very interesting people.. let me just leave it at that.and they have their own economic motives.”-Prosecutor McGinty on Samaria Rice

  81. 81.

    Keith G

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    but this was a child and they’ll just bury his memory under a pile of money too.

    Maybe so, but at this juncture the best of a bunch of bad realities would be to keep digging for more information.

    In the grand jury process, the cops had things their way. In a civil deposition, the family’s lawyers get a chance to go to work.

  82. 82.

    Villago Delenda Est

    I’m with Betty. Hiring vile shitstain Ari Fleischer means you’re a vile shitstain, too.

  83. 83.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @rikyrah: Exqueeze me, but if you’re blah, even if you’re in an open carry state, you’re obviously dangerous and need to be gunned down without warning.

  84. 84.

    Keith G

    @lamh36: On course the shit head is poisoning the well.

    He might be of the opinion that the family has a good civil case, so he is firing a warning shot.

    Big deal.

  87. 87.

    dedc79

    One take on the Manning story:

    I can think of no mystery less interesting than whether an aging athlete with a broken neck used a substance that might not even work to return to a playing field where cortisone injections are given out like chewable Vitamin C tabs.

  89. 89.

    raven

    @Paul in KY: I rest my case. The BoxTops was bubble gum if ever there was. . .

    eta Apparently they were Uber Bubblegum

    “The one thing that lifts the Box Tops out of the pack of bubblegum groups that flooded AM radio in the mid- to late ’60s was the blue-eyed Memphis soul voice of the then-teenaged Alex Chilton, and coupled with Dan Penn’s deep South production, the group managed two memorable singles, 1967’s “The Letter” and 1968’s “Cry Like a Baby,” along with a couple of decent near-misses, “Neon Rainbow” and “Choo Choo Train.””

  92. 92.

    Paul in KY

    @raven: Agree. Thought at time I wrote that that you’d only ever heard of The Boxtops.

    The Letter is a great song, though.

  96. 96.

    Keith G

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I’m with Betty. Hiring vile shitstain Ari Fleischer means you’re a vile shitstain, too.

    Never been a fan of that type of reasoning.

    If you really need a lawyer to do something big and important, you go to the law firm you feel is best able to get to the desired outcome (and that is affordable).

    If Manning has a few synapses left, I bet ideology or the ability to repeatedly lie while smiling were not at the top of his legal firm checklist – but still possibly in the top 5.

  97. 97.

    Poopyman

    And in other news from our awesome legal system:

    A judge has reduced ex-Massey Energy CEO Don Blankenship’s bond and dropped his travel restrictions after his conviction.

    U.S. Magistrate Judge Clarke VanDervort in Beckley reduced Blankenship’s $5 million bond to $1 million Monday.

    VanDervort also dropped restrictions limiting Blankenship’s travel to southern West Virginia, Pike County, Kentucky and Washington, D.C.

    VanDervort says Blankenship can live at home in Las Vegas and travel throughout the continental United States.

    VanDervort ruled Blankenship isn’t prohibited anymore from talking to certain people related to the case.

    Blankenship was convicted Dec. 3 of a misdemeanor conspiracy to willfully violate mine safety standards at Upper Big Branch, where an explosion killed 29 men in 2010. He faces a year in prison at most.

    He was acquitted of felonies that could’ve stretched his sentence to 30 years.

    Powers That Be cramming as much shit into the dead week between holidays, I tells ya.

  101. 101.

    lamh36

    @chrislhayes
    Something so garishly disingenuous about a prosecutor using a grand jury to launder their own decision not to indict.

    @chrislhayes 4m4 minutes ago Manhattan, NY
    If you didn’t think there was sufficient evidence to indict, then don’t indict and own the decision.

  104. 104.

    lamh36

    @AriMelber
    Prosecutor Matt Meyer cites unnamed associate of Tamir Rice saying he would sometimes pull the toy gun out “like a robber.”

    So we not call a child’s friend “associate”…ok…and “like a robber”…really…fuckin’ really

  105. 105.

    Elie

    @Keith G:

    I agree with you… though a criminal indictment would have been best, a well run civil suit can hopefully get some of this out…

    It is just so sickening….

  107. 107.

    MomSense

    @lamh36:

    They are trying to turn him into a “thug” to justify his murder. This is some of the nastiest, most despicable character assassination I’ve ever seen.

  108. 108.

    trollhattan

    @Paul in KY:
    Yup. Couple years back we were discussing Big Star and I mentioned owning the Radio City LP with the Eggleston cover, only to discover a commenter is Eggleston’s nephew. Yet another crazy BJ convergence.

  110. 110.

    trollhattan

    @Poopyman:
    Fvck me. Always figured Blankenship had enough juice to stay out of prison. Am waiting for some judge to order the families to apologize for saying unkind things about him.

  116. 116.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @lamh36:

    Shorter Gov Kasich…”hey, I know ya’ll mad, but expressions of anger are reserved for football/hockey or others white sports fans”

    QFT. He’s an asshole; I don’t care if he did help get Medicaid expansion done in OH. He’s as bad as any of them, now whitesplaining how to be cool with yet another police murder of a child in your group. Which group just happens to have some distinguishing features, like a specific hair texture and a darkness of skin that shouts “DANGEROUS” so long as they breathe.

    Fuck Kasich. I wish I had stayed in the boat at the twitter stream. His “defenders” there are worse. Perhaps the Texas wind talker can send them to Russia or someplace else (unpleasant) where everybody’s really pale.

  118. 118.

    redshirt

    I know it’s really “about the children”, but I don’t care if Manning does HGH or any athlete. These are our gladiators – they need to be in the ring.

  119. 119.

    different-church-lady

    @JPL:

    Has Roger called for an independent investigation yet?

    Why bother? The only result would be Brady getting suspended for another 4 games.

  120. 120.

    different-church-lady

    Even as a Patriots fan, I am skeptical of this story. I enjoyed seeing Peyton being beaten by my team, but outside of that I have no desire to see him torn down, not to tarnish his considerable legacy as the second greatest quarterback of the Brady-Manning era.

  121. 121.

    JimV

    It seems ridiculous to me to talk about this when the original source has retracted his off-the-record statement. The logic seems to be, well other sports celebrities who have denied using PEDs have lied about it, so that is evidence that PM is probably guilty – in other words, classic it-does-not-follow illogic. A lot of guilty people deny their guilt, but so would every innocent person. Until and unless there is hard evidence, I’m going to presume he’s innocent. (I’m sure he would do the same for me.)

    Also, I don’t care if he did use HGH. He was out of football for a year. HGH is legally prescribed by doctors for improved healing of serious injuries. He was trying to regenerate nerves so he could use his right arm. I’d do anything that anyone told me might help in that situation. All the analysts I heard at ESPN said he never did regain his pre-injury arm strength or tight spiral.

    P.S. LeBron James also uses hyperbaric-chamber treatments, which is what PM got at the lab in question. Anti-aging treatments are healing treatments. Don’t take my word for it, Google it – but preferably do so before you throw out accusations based on ignorance. Or not, if that’s just how you roll.

  122. 122.

    marduk

    @JimV:

    It seems ridiculous to me to talk about this when the original source has retracted his off-the-record statement.

    The original source was secretly filmed admitting to federal crimes. Of course he’s going to claim it was all a bunch of lies.

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