Trump went data shopping (got pitch from firm owned by Ted Cruz mega-donor) before signing up for free @GOP file. https://t.co/1f6rRQlPy7
— Kenneth P. Vogel (@kenvogel) December 29, 2015
They now have 1-month to become fluent in voter files, targeting, and direct contact programs. https://t.co/1MKVKsdUTV
— Adrian Gray (@adrian_gray) December 29, 2015
This sounds to me like the old horror-movie trope “No, now I’ve got you trapped, right where I want you” — but I’m not sure which side is speaking. From the Politico article:
Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, which has faced doubts about its ability to translate enthusiasm into votes, in the past few weeks quietly signed an agreement allowing it to use the Republican National Committee’s massive voter file, POLITICO has learned.
The list-sharing agreement, which reveals a new level of cooperation between the GOP and its surprise front-runner, could be highly beneficial to both sides.
For the Trump campaign, it means access to a database containing a trove of information on more than 200 million Americans, which can be used to power a get-out-the-vote effort. And for the RNC, it means that any information Trump collects from his supporters, many of whom are not traditional Republicans, will be fed back into the database for future use by the party and its candidates…
All the grubby details at the link, but for those of us not enthralled by #moneyball-style dissections of number crunching, it does seem as though both parties are liable to end up with a lot less than they’re hoping to gain… and, Murphy the Trickster God willing, there would seem to be potential for data-leakage monkey-mischief…
***********
Apart from wishing (further) confusion to our enemies, what’s on the agenda for the day?
David Koch
Kasich says we shouldn’t judge candidate viability based on poll numbers but rather on how many town hall events they’ve held.
the stoopid – it burns.
David Koch
After 4 debates in 10 weeks, polls show the Sanders campaign in midst of months long stall. #feeltheburn
I can’t understand this: I was repeatedly told from various corners that debates could only help Sanders, not Clinton.
#feeltheBaud!
Baud
@David Koch: The number of Balloon Juice comments posted is the key indicator of viability.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I was told there would be no math or tests.
Baud
AL, I’ve got a number of similarly worded comments marked as spam. Please go ahead and delete them.
I can take a hint.
C.V. Danes
Looks like the DNC strategy is working.
OzarkHillbilly
Treading water. The MODOT Travelers map looks like it has the measles. I-44 is closed in several locations to the west of us, but (so far) is open all the way to STL (should stay that way now that the rains have stopped) tho there is flooding around where my wife works. Will also need to take an alternate route to my Doc tomorrow as some of the usual are under water too.
It’s fun living in a rain forest.
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: You better start building an ark.
OzarkHillbilly
@C.V. Danes: And that DNC plant really did a number on Bernie’s campaign.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: Is that snark, or was there some news I missed?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Stop by later today, I do snark-o-meter repair.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: There were allegations (not credible, IMO) suggesting that the Sanders data guy who accessed Clinton’s data was a DNC plant.
OzarkHillbilly
@JPL: This one’s going to be short of the ’93 flood, which was the Mother of All Floods. Not just for the levels which were and remain the record, but even more for the amount of time the rivers stayed up which was for over a month. Never seen the like before or since. Floods always crest and then drop back to normal relatively quickly (the MO and MS crests in STL are expected this wkend, the Meramec should crest out here tomorrow) but in ’93 it just wouldn’t stop raining in Iowa/Nebraska/IL and the rivers stayed up. The other weird thing about ’93 was it was a summertime flood, March/April/May are common enuf, as are Nov/Dec, but July????
’93 was just all around weird.
David Koch
@Baud: the Sanders’s campaign and the Sandernistas have been pushing the CT that their data people were DNC plants to make them look bad
BillinGlendaleCA
@OzarkHillbilly:
I blame Obama.
BillinGlendaleCA
It’s warmer here than last night, a balmy 36.
Amir Khalid
@David Koch:
For months, as he was building up name recognition to catch up to Hillary, Bernie had nowhere to go but up. Now that he’s caught up, he has to compete with her on merit, and he’s just not as complete a candidate as she. That, more than the party establishment’s pro-Hillary bias (which certainly does exist), is what seems to me to be holding him back from getting any closer to her in the polls.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
@David Koch:
Thanks. I vaguely heard about the plant rumor, but I wasn’t sure if there was new information about that story that Ozark was referring to.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: What Betty said. IIRC the allegations were made by one who was high up in Bernie’s campaign (I think his campaign head but could be wrong- I just snickered at the headline, didn’t read the article)
Amir Khalid
@David Koch:
Has no one taken these people aside and told them how unprofessional it is to say such things without proof?
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: I didn’t read the original article, but I read some of the commentary about it. I got the impression that it was trash journalism, so I didn’t think much more about it. Your comment made me wonder whether some new information had come out.
If, however, the Sanders campaign or his supporters are in fact pushing a CT, that’s truly unfortunate.
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid:
That and the fact that he’s not Obama. (which is no slam at Bernie)
David Koch
Sanders isn’t new to CTs. In the past he repeatedly wrote that fluoridation of water is a sinister government conspiracy.
“Mandrake, have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?”
Betty Cracker
@Amir Khalid:
I think that’s about right. I love what Sanders has to say on economic issues, but he doesn’t come across as prepared on everything else as Clinton does. I still haven’t figured out whom I’ll vote for in the primary, but the contest will most likely be decided by the time I get to vote on the Ides of March.
I believe Sanders entered the race knowing he had almost zero chance of winning but wanting to have a hand in shaping the Democrats’ approach to economic issues. He has succeeded, and the party is better for it.
debbie
@David Koch:
I can’t find the exact quote, but Kasich recently pointed to the happiness of Ohioans as evidence he was most qualified to be president. I don’t know, I think if there’s any happiness here, it’s been achieved despite Kasich’s policies.
Baud
@David Koch: That’s an image of a newspaper without an author. Do you have a source? I’d like to see the context. It reads like something a libertarian would write.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: The thing that got me about the whole mess was the amount of “we’re the real victim” i was hearing from some in Bernie’s campaign, and they had a point in that the DNC over reacted, but then they took it to the next level, and the one beyond that, and then I read the DNC plant bullshit and it fit right in.
That was when I just started laughing at the whole thing.
BillinGlendaleCA
@David Koch: I too am concerned about precious bodily fluids.
Satby
@OzarkHillbilly: I posted this below but it should have been here:
Going to my first day on the new job in an ice storm was just as much fun as you can imagine. Coming home was even better, by then there had been 7 hours of freezing rain so there were also flooded frozen roads. One minivan had gone at least 40 feet off the road and down an embankment into a field, though fortunately hadn’t rolled over so they were all fine. And just before my house a tree had come down and blocked the lane I was driving in. Hair-raising.
I’m rethinking how much I hate Florida’s weather. A tiny bit.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: I agree there. The second Hillary said “Let’s move on” in the last debate, this story should have died. I don’t understand why anyone in the Sanders camp would continue talking about it. His appeal is that he’s focused on the issues, not this inside baseball stuff that no one cares about and people attribute to partisan bickering.
David Koch
@Baud: ►Certainly.◄ It’s even worse than the clip. He wrote sexual inhibition leads to breast cancer.
Baud
@Satby: Scary. I’m glad you are safe.
debbie
@Satby:
I’m glad you made it through that weather. When I first started my current job, it was part-time and there was an ice storm that afternoon and evening (not that my memory’s that good, but it was February 1, 2011). The streets were treated, but I had to scrape my windows twice in a 4-hour period. Lots of bad words flying around in that parking lot
Baud
@David Koch: Thanks. A bit cringe-inducing, but long enough ago that I don’t really give it much weight. I’m sure I’ll not look too kindly on my comments here 45 years from now.
Satby
@Baud: @BillinGlendaleCA: Yeah, that anti-fluoridation shit is straight out of the John Birch playbook that was mocked in Dr. Strangelove. And it’s now back in circulation with some of the same lefties that are concerned about vaccines causing autism. Stupid is immortal.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I sometimes feel that way about the comments I made yesterday.
WereBear
@Satby: so glad you got a job, even if it comes with irony.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA: You should.
?
Kay
@David Koch:
I don’t get the jeering, David, I really don’t. It’s a primary. There has to be more than one candidate. Unless Sanders is within striking distance of Clinton in January he should, what? Go away? Drop out?
You know, I go to these county Dem meetings and I’m constantly told Democrats need a candidate in every race, yet there’s also this pervasive theme in the Democratic Party that anyone who isn’t running ahead is a worthless loser who can be dismissed as “unprofessional”. If it’s “winners only need apply!” then we should stop insisting we want everyone to participate. We’ll just limit this to “professional, winners” which is very efficient.
Baud
@Kay: David supports Hillary. It is a primary, and he gets to make fun of Sanders the same way a Sanders supporter makes fun of Hillary and all of us make fun of O’Malley.
Satby
@Baud: @debbie: Thanks. Back roads and 15 miles per hour all the way!
@WereBear: I know, right? But I still am applying to other ones, they want US to drive clients to and from work too, which I’m not willing to do in weather like that. I couldn’t pay for that level of liability insurance.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
debbie
@Kay:
Or just declare ourselves to be GOP Lite.
Satby
@Kay: Kay, his people claiming that the fired guy was a DNC plant is unprofessional. And, sorry, but we mock the loonies on the right with their conspiracy theories, leftist loonies deserve the same scorn. I liked Sanders and would have voted for him in the primary, but he knocked himself out of consideration espousing stuff like that.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Hey now, as Peyton Manning’s rep once said, all Americans that they need to watch what they say, watch what they do.
Just One More Canuck
@BillinGlendaleCA: Anyone who makes fun of Baud does so at their own peril
Kay
@Baud:
Okay, Baud, but liberals are as much welcome and necessary voters in any Democratic coalition as any other subset of voters. There’s the constant effort to set them apart as the ONLY part of the coalition who don’t matter and can be dismissed as “purity ponies” or mucking up the works or something. Why just them? Any other likely Democratic voters we feel comfortable jettisoning in our quest for a friction-free glide to the nomination?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: @Just One More Canuck: I get the feeling Someone’s Watching Me.
David Koch
@Amir Khalid: So Sanders went on Face the Nation and said Trumps racist supporters aren’t racists but simply suffering from economic anxiety, leading them to be manipulated to hate muslims and mexicans.
His smart supporters are saying he knows this isn’t true, but this is an attempt to lure working class white independents supporting Trump on economics. I can see that. It’s hard to recruit someone by calling them racist, so he’s saying, hey, it’s not their fault. And his campaign plan all along was to unite working class people on populist economics, not social issues, like gay marriage, which he has called “divisive”.
But instead of the small sliver of persuadable Trump economic voters, the biggest class of voters he could have recruited was the 70,000,000 people who supported Obama. A ton of people opposed Clinton in 2008 and were predisposed to support someone else today, but instead he’s done everything possible to alienate them: “I don’t think people want a third term of Obama.”
Elizabelle
Good morning all. Appreciated Anne’s link yesterday to First Book, charity which provides almost free books to children in need. A great cause to support, and Penguin Young Readers will donate two books for each contribution of $2.50 or more through year-end.
link for donating and info: First Book or firstbook.org
WaPost yesterday: First Book mixes market forces and philanthropy to help poor children
Just bringing this up again, in event you had not seen it …
Baud
@Kay: I don’t see any basis for your comment. We mock purity ponies because they are mockable. We mock blue dogs even harder even though they are larger in number and we need them more. We rarely mock liberals because most of us here consider ourselves liberal.
debbie
@Kay:
Talk about the poor institutional memory, wasn’t it the tough primaries that really gave Obama his initial strength? Hillary’s people should be welcoming any and all differentiation. The more she looks like she should simply be handed the nomination, the more she’s starting to look like Mitt. There. I said it.
Satby
@Baud: And “liberal” does not solely equate to “Bernie Sanders”. It’s not a binary choice.
Punchy
@Betty Cracker: Holy shit….a plant that uses a computer? I knew those Venus Flytraps were cagey, but this thing must have supercharged Calvin cycles and killer chlorophyll.
Kay
@Satby:
Of course it’s not, but they have a candidate, which takes it from the abstract “we welcome liberals!” to the specific and real, which is always the point where “we welcome liberals!” breaks down into jeering at purity ponies.
We welcome liberals unless they run a candidate, ask for anything, or cause any trouble.
Elizabelle
@David Koch: I don’t understand why you’re going there.
Sounds like Sanders made a believable statement about economic insecurity; I think the smarter of Trump’s supporters might give Sanders an honest hearing, since he is serious on the issue. Once they get past the sloganeering [GOP and commercial media: “Sanders is an icky soci a list!”], Sanders could reach them. If he does, they will realize the GOP ticket offers them much less than they were expecting.
I don’t agree that all of Trump’s apparent supporters are there for the racism. Many of them, yes, but too broad a brush.
Also, are you saying Sanders is NOT going after Obama supporters? I have seen no evidence of that whatsoever.
I am thrilled to have Sanders in the race, I love the issues he is raising, and I will be delighted to vote for Hillary or whoever the Democratic nominee is next fall.
What is the point of pitting Democrats and those who would support them against each other?
I like a lot of your posts, but don’t understand your point this morning.
Baud
@debbie:
@Satby:
I don’t like Catch 22’s. Either we want Hillary to act like she’s already won the nomination and treat Sanders gently, or we want her to act like she’s in a competitive primary and treat Sanders like a real opponent. It’s unfair to ask for both.
Kay
@debbie:
Clinton won’t do it. Clinton will court Sanders supporters, just like Obama and Clinton courted Edwards supporters and the number of Edwards supporters was wildly exaggerated.
OzarkHillbilly
testing testing…
David Koch
@Satby: 100% correct. I’m far more liberal than Sanders: from guns to gay marriage to gitmo to 3 strikes to immigration reform to the F-35. Not in my life would I give gun corporations blanket immunity. How’s that for rank corruption and corporatism.
It’s incorrect that some make him the litmus test for being a liberal. Its a test he would fail, himself.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: If you’re going to ding Sanders for not being fully on board with marriage equality 10 years ago, be honest enough to note that Clinton and Obama weren’t either. You’ve phrased that comment as if Sanders is against marriage equality NOW, which isn’t true.
OzarkHillbilly
@OzarkHillbilly: So the commenting Gods will allow me to comment, they just won’t let me reply to Satby. (glad you’re safe and sound) I blame Baud.
debbie
@Baud:
I’m not asking for both. I want her to deal with Sanders on an honest and equal level, not as some pesky mosquito flitting about her head. If her campaign wasn’t ignoring his campaign, I bet his people would stop saying the stupid things they’re saying. If nothing else, it would benefit the voters.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
This theory that the “Obama Coalition” rejects Bernie Sanders’ message falls apart for me because of young people. Clinton will require an economic message that resonates with young people. She already polls well with older voters who rely on Social Security and Medicare. That’s one piece.
She cannot rely on civil rights alone to bring out young voters. They are arguably the most economically insecure and the most pessimistic about their own economic futures. There’s a reason for that. The economy collapsed right as they were entering it.
Baud
@debbie:
I don’t follow the day to day, but I don’t know what that means. From what I’ve seen, all of the candidates talk mostly about their own vision, not their opponents’.
OzarkHillbilly
@Elizabelle:
Can you agree that they are willing to tolerate it? Sit on their hands while all about them others cheer it? I’m with David on this one: Fvck the Trump supporters. We didn’t need them in ’08. We didn’t need them in ’12. And we sure as H.E.L.L don’t need them now. (and if we do, than it is already too late, the American experiment is a failure)
Betty Cracker
@Kay: She certainly will, just as Obama courted Clinton’s supporters when he won the primary. What we’re seeing here is a demonstration that Clinton supporters can be just as obnoxious and short-sighted as the Sanders supporters who denounce Clinton as a Goldwater girl war criminal. (Gotta admit I have little standing to criticize them though since I have been just as obnoxious myself at times. You’re one of the few who can since you don’t indulge in those tactics, to your credit.)
Satby
@Kay: Isn’t it possible that Democrats could run candidates that are liberal, progressive, and not carry some of the same minuses as the Sanders campaign has shown? And that once those minuses show up that people might choose the other candidate even though that’s the “establishment” pick?
I was originally generic Democratic in the primary and Sanders economic positions are very attractive. But his blindness to racism and sexism have given me serious pause because even coming from Vermont, adults in this country should know better than to think it’s 100% economic. And anti-fuoridation views are a major red flag to me; maybe people don’t remember that the JBS was the main promoter of that, but it takes some serious scientific illiteracy to believe that, or in the old breast cancer trope, which was already debunked when Sanders was saying that.
We hold Ron Paul responsible for the racist crap in his newsletter from way back because decent people don’t publish racist crap. I hold Sanders responsible for his views that are goofy because he’s a sentient adult. And prefer a different candidate as a result. Which is not actually HRC’s fault, and not “her expecting a coronation”.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone :)
debbie
@Baud:
By and large, the candidates are, but their campaign spokespeople sure aren’t. Rightly or wrongly, you can’t separate the two.
Amir Khalid
@Satby:
I remember Obama warning his campaign staff that he would sack anyone who tried to make a campaign issue of Bristol Palin’s first pregnancy. Bernie should have done something similar regarding the DNC data thing: remind his people that he considers the matter closed, and bringing it up again will incur his displeasure. It doesn’t reflect well on his leadership that he hasn’t.
David Koch
@Betty Cracker: Obama was on board for gay marriage as early as 1996. He lied to get elected in 2008, the same way FDR lied about balancing the budget in 1932 and keeping the US out of war in 1940 or JFK lied about plans for full desegregation in 1960. Obama lied to win elections in purple areas like colorado, ohio, Virgina, north carolina, not to win deep blue areas like Vermont.
I am not a supporter of Hillary Clinton, I am a long time critic of hers. I’m not even voting for her in the primary; I’m voting for Trump (seriously), cuz if he gets the nomination it’s possible to flip congress. I defend her this time because I admire good tactics, unlike her 2008 race.
Baud
@David Koch: Sorry, I misrepresentated your stance.
David Koch
Well, carry on. At least I got the thread going this morning on an otherwise slow news week.
? u guys, truly (especially Baud!)
AxelFoley
@David Koch:
See, shit like this, and his continued disparaging of Obama and his achievements, has me voting for Clinton in the primary in VA. The fucker’s so tone deaf it defies belief. Fuck Bernie and his campaign.
AxelFoley
@Elizabelle:
When you consistently shit on Obama and everything he’s achieved under the most obstructionist Congress in history, no, you’re not going after his supporters.
Satby
@David Koch:
Be careful what you wish for. Trump activates enough nasty id that if he wins the nom he could go on to win the general. There are enough ignorant voters out there who think that government should be just another reality show and that they should be able to vote their fellow citizens off the island. He’s unleashing very ugly stuff, and just like the Repugs can’t control what they’ve unleashed in their base, the country may not be able to control what is unleashed in an election where Trump is a nominee.
debbie
@Baud:
And by the way, while I disagree with you, you still have my vote!
rikyrah
7 Lessons I’ve Learned from Traveling to 14 Countries in 2015
Awesomely Luvvie — December 28, 2015
This year has been unlike any for me for so many reasons but one of those is that I traveled like I never have before. I didn’t start the year imagining that I’d visit 14 countries, but that’s was one of the beautiful surprises of 2015.
For me, travel is important for many reasons, and I’m passionate about it because of the lessons that come from it. Seeing the world is more than about collecting passport stamps. For me, it is about stepping out of my bubble and my comfort zone. It humbles me to get reminded about how little I know, and it expands my mind because I soak up so much while on my jaunts. I pay more attention, and come back home appreciating my space.
In 2015, I set foot in: Dominican Republic, Kenya, British Virgin Islands, Morocco, Turkey, Spain, England, United Arab Emirates, Thailand, Qatar, Mexico, Egypt, Barbados, Haiti.
Here’s some of the lessons I am walking away with:
eclare
Hmmm, vote Trump as a D, hadn’t thought of that as strategy. In TN, you can vote in either primary. If Hillary seems to have it nailed down, may vote Trump.
oldgold
In virtually every endeavor, when you start pissing and moaning about procedure and/or the refs, it communicates the substantive battle is headed in the wrong direction. With this DNC stuff, Sanders is signaling weakness.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: So was Obama also lying when he said his views on marriage equality had evolved after he’d already been elected president? I think he was telling the truth, and it’s nothing to be ashamed of; a lot of people’s views on marriage equality evolved, including Hillary’s, and that’s a good thing.
Whether you call yourself a Hillary supporter or not, you seem to be deliberately distorting Sanders’ positions and falsely attributing quotes to discredit him. That puts you in “Thoughtful Today” territory, IMO.
OzarkHillbilly
I really don’t understand the gut level fear so many liberals have for Trump and his absolute racist appeal. This is a country that not only elected a black man as President, we re-elected him after 4 years of dog-whistled racist demagoguery, that a middle of the road candidate could not take advantage of. Trump now leads all Republicans with about 40% of the GOP primary* electorate. Why is this frightening? My back of the napkin math** says that comes to…. 27% of the American electorate. Trump is not a threat. Cruz might be, but I doubt it.
* how many of Trump’s supporters have ever voted in a primary before? How many will vote in this one?
** sarcasm, haven’t done any math at all, just thinking that 40% of 47% (Mitt’s take in ’12) is pretty damn close to 27% of total electorate.
danielx
@Baud:
Hey, it’s politics. Fairness doesn’t enter into it, especially in the context of a BJ comment thread. One for all and all on one, etc etc….
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Most people don’t give a shit one way or the other.
magurakurin
@David Koch: Ice cream, Mandrake? Children’s ice cream?
Satby
@OzarkHillbilly: I tend to fear the poison a demagogue unleashes. The carrier may be different or even look ridiculous, but the poison they inject can be hard to recover from.
Amir Khalid
@OzarkHillbilly:
If 40% of GOP voters is 27% of all American voters, then 100% of GOP voters would be 67.5% of all American voters — not a reassuring calculation. 40% of Mitt’s 47% voter share in 2012 would come to a less disturbing 18.8% of all voters, but there is surely no way Trump would get so few votes; the floor for any Republican nominee is around 45% of all votes.
Gin & Tonic
@Elizabelle: I think the smarter of Trump’s supporters
I think you have described the empty set.
Kay
@Satby:
I’m leaning Clinton in the primary. It just bothers me that every time people who are liberals on economic issues speak up there’s this rush to label them “purity ponies” which harkens directly back to “firebaggers”. Sanders is criticizing the Democratic Party on economic issues. For some reason, that’s not permissible.
There are real and substantive divides in the Democratic Party on issues- there’s an actual war, two distinct sides, on education and trade, for example. Democrats haven’t won many governor’s races, but the two they DID win (Pennsylvania and Louisiana) they won with support for public education as a central theme. I think the Democratic Party should pay attention to that.
Clinton will have trouble on trade in the midwest. That needs to be grappled with instead of dismissing it, especially if she can’t rely on higher turnout among young people.
magurakurin
@Kay:
Because they are the ones who are proclaiming they will refuse to vote for the winner of the primary if it isn’t Sanders.
debbie
@Kay:
I think that will be secondary to her position on banks and Wall Street.
magurakurin
@Kay:
You mean like publicly suing the DNC in the middle of a primary? I wonder why that is pissing people off? The disdain now forming around the Sanders campaign is fairly well deserved at this point. Now that we have a good look at Weaver and Devine, I think it is becoming very clear to many people that the Sanders campaign, and I mean the actual election machine, is a shit show that is miles away from ready for prime time.
Poopyman
@OzarkHillbilly:
Not even close. It’s only18.8% of the gen’l electorate. The dude can’t even reach the Crazification Factor. What a loser.
Kay
@debbie:
I think it will be more important because she will rely more on “traditional” Democratic constituencies in Ohio- she won’t be relying on “new voters” or “sporadic voters”. I know it’s state-specific, voting around trade, but Presidential races are state-specific.
I also think the Senate race in Ohio will bring it to the fore. She’ll be out with Strickland again.
I’m kind of dreading all the lying on trade those two will be doing, honestly. I don’t think it flies again. I think people have reached their limit on “Democrats lying about trade” :)
Poopyman
@Amir Khalid: True, the nominee will pick up the bulk of the losers’ votes, but jaundiced as I am with the American voter, I think Trump wouldn’t even make the 45% mark against the Dem nominee.
Kay
@magurakurin:
I don’t believe that. I think reliable voters generally vote. Reliable voters have never been the Democrats’ problem. The Democrats’ problem is a big chunk of their voters are “sporadic”- they don’t engage at all unless there’s blanket coverage of an exciting race and something like 4 personal contacts, each.
magurakurin
@Kay:
Then they aren’t “purity ponies.” Check out some of the shit being published at Salon these days. These are the people who are being met with scorn.
debbie
@Kay:
I’m still hoping that P.G. Sittenfeld will get the Dem nomination for Senate (leave me my dreams!), but if Strickland runs against Portman, you don’t think he’ll be better off by comparison? Is anyone more tried to b.s. trade policies than Rob Portman?
rikyrah
I’ve been saying this for awhile…..as to why we need to be hardcore about our support for Marilyn Mosby.
Look at the rest of them.
THEY NEVER INTENDED TO GET AN INDICTMENT.
THEY DID NOT SEEK IT.
THEY DID NOT WANT IT.
THEY MURDERED A 12 YEAR OLD CHILD, AND PROCEEDED TO DEFAME A 12 YEAR OLD CHILD.
https://youtu.be/POQzNWL1eD4
Kay
@magurakurin:
Debbie Wasserman Schultz should worry less about Bernie Sanders and more about why she loses every midterm. She should also take some time off from worrying about how Bernie Sanders doesn’t defend Obama’s record and explain why she led the organization that completely failed to defend his record for 8 years.
Elizabelle
Have you all been following the “Connecticut journalist quits on principle because his publisher turns out to be a Sheldon Adelson tool” story?
Journalist Steve Majerus Collins quit The Bristol Press with one of the mother of all “I quit” letters; has a great Facebook post up about it.
Believe he’ll be on Rachel Maddow tonight, if you’ve not already been following the sad saga (which the NY Times, LA Times and Las Vegas papers have been covering).
Steve has a gofundme page up; he and Jackie have a mortgage and two college student kids. He is looking for a new opportunity, but has bills in the meantime.
Help Me Stand Up to Sheldon Adelson
We are so fast to support pets. Methinks we should support non-Villager journalists too.
opiejeanne
@Kay: Amen.
Kay
@debbie:
This is horrible to say, but I wish Strickland wasn’t running just because he backed Clinton in the ’08 primary (she lost, although she won Ohio) and he lost what should have been a re-election for governor.
I just feel like it’s going to be a replay of “Ted Strickland’s weirdly desperate and doomed-feeling losing campaigns” :)
He’d be solid in the Senate though- he’s a loyal Democrat and he’d follow Sherrod like a shadow.
I’m going to a fundraiser for him- I didn’t donate but I got invited anyway, which is either nice outreach or worrying- does he not have enough people to go?
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: Pedant. (is there an emoji with a tongue sticking out? If so I’d put it here with a ‘Pfffffftttt.’
ThresherK
@OzarkHillbilly: “Can you agree that they are willing to tolerate it? Sit on their hands while all about them others cheer it? ”
John McCain was lauded for talking down that disturbed woman who called Obama “a Muslim” in S.Carolina during a 2008 town hall. At the time I thought he was too praised for doing something anyone would.
Cut to 2016: Nobody in the GOP has to do that today. And it’s probably bad politics for the GOP primaries! (I know that the 2008 incident was in the general election, and we’re still in primary season, but there’s a limit.)
rikyrah
This is for the kids who die,
Black and white,
For kids will die certainly.
The old and rich will live on awhile,
As always,
Eating blood and gold,
Letting kids die.
Kids will die in the swamps of Mississippi
Organizing sharecroppers
Kids will die in the streets of Chicago
Organizing workers
Kids will die in the orange groves of California
Telling others to get together
Whites and Filipinos,
Negroes and Mexicans,
All kinds of kids will die
Who don’t believe in lies, and bribes, and contentment
And a lousy peace.
Of course, the wise and the learned
Who pen editorials in the papers,
And the gentlemen with Dr. in front of their names
White and black,
Who make surveys and write books
Will live on weaving words to smother the kids who die,
And the sleazy courts,
And the bribe-reaching police,
And the blood-loving generals,
And the money-loving preachers
Will all raise their hands against the kids who die,
Beating them with laws and clubs and bayonets and bullets
To frighten the people—
For the kids who die are like iron in the blood of the people—
And the old and rich don’t want the people
To taste the iron of the kids who die,
Don’t want the people to get wise to their own power,
To believe an Angelo Herndon, or even get together
Listen, kids who die—
Maybe, now, there will be no monument for you
Except in our hearts
Maybe your bodies’ll be lost in a swamp
Or a prison grave, or the potter’s field,
Or the rivers where you’re drowned like Leibknecht
But the day will come—
You are sure yourselves that it is coming—
When the marching feet of the masses
Will raise for you a living monument of love,
And joy, and laughter,
And black hands and white hands clasped as one,
And a song that reaches the sky—
The song of the life triumphant
Through the kids who die.
——————- LANGSTON HUGHES
ThresherK
@Elizabelle: I have. New Britain is just a few towns over from me. The Colin McEnroe show has a boffo hour on it, with the invaluable Jay Rosen.
Rosen is a press critic from NYU who, in any sane world, would be on NPR’s Rolodex and hoarse from guesting on their shows.
Note that WNPR was named for Norwich CT, and is an affiliate. The local show I refer to is CT-made and has nothing to do with NPR. (Of course, if you listen to it, and realize there’s no right-wing talking points asswipe for “balance”, the fact that it’s not an NPR mothership program will be pretty evident.)
rikyrah
Charles M. Blow ✔ @CharlesMBlow
One thing I couldn’t fit in my columns: #TamirRice’s 14-y-o sister stopped eating/loss 50 lbs after seeing him shot and killed #trauma
CaseyL
@Kay: That’s not my take at all. People aren’t criticizing Sanders for his position on economic issues, though they are pointing out that subsuming race issues into economic issues avoids the central problem of racism.
No, what people are criticizing Sanders for is his, or his campaign’s, new flirtation with conspiracy theories. It’s why people are also bringing up admittedly long-ago stuff like anti-fluoridation. If Bernie has a few screws loose when it comes to conspiracy stuff, it makes him look like a crank. That’s bad. No one takes cranks seriously.
magurakurin
@Kay: DWS got the job from Tim Kaine in May of 2011. And if you have problems with her (many, many people do) you should take it up with Obama, since he is the guy who picked her for the job.
DWS doesn’t matter much in the big picture. Clinton’s campaign people will be running the show. But if the Sanders campaign wants to make this about DWS vs. Bernie Sanders, then, I say fuck that. I say fuck talking about internal party issues right now in the middle of a primary and a general election. If something was going to be done about DWS it needed to be done before the spring. It’s too late to address her deficiencies now. But Weaver and Devine want to keep their lawsuit going. Fuck them.
If Sanders wants to talk issues, fine. If he wants to turn it into some battle against the DNC “establishment,” oh hell no. Fuck that shit.
Bobby Thomson
@Amir Khalid: it’s amateur hour over at the Sanders campaign. His staff are so unprofessional they should be working for Trump. And very well might be.
Kay
@CaseyL:
IMO, the Democratic Party should be grateful to Bernie Sanders because he moved them off “the opportunity agenda” which was resonating with no one outside DC and think tanks and is nearly identical to what Republicans are running on. Republicans have to run on “opportunity”, because they have nothing tangible or real to point to. Democrats don’t.
The Center for American Progress is still pushing it, incredibly. I don’t know- how many congressional and governors races do Democrats have to lose before they stop insisting that the decline of the middle class is the fault of the middle class, who (apparently) aren’t grabbing the “opportunity” that surrounds them?
Bobby Thomson
@Kay: now who’s being naive? I think you know damn well why someone might find it funny to take shots at the “Hillary and her DNC minions are afraid of Bernie’s debating prowess!” dudebros. After months of every Clinton article being followed with snide “she’s more conservative than Trump!” crap, people are letting off some steam.
srv
In civilized countries, Whitewater would land you in jail:
ruemara
@debbie: I hate to say this but between the elevation of Sanders to some pure, flawless, perfect candidate and conflating online polls with pundit polls for “winning” a debate and crafting conspiracy theories to avoid saying they made a mistake, it’s not Hillary looking like a Romney. And resent him making her look better to me.
Bobby Thomson
@Kay: [email protected]Kay: oh please. No one is jettisoning liberals. People are giving online bullies a taste of their own medicine and they can’t take it. #hearthewhine
magurakurin
@Kay: You’re missing the point. Right now. At this moment. Currently, the Sanders campaign is making noises that there are various conspiracies and plots being orchestrated by the DNC to take down his campaign. They are suing the DNC as we speak. If Sanders continues down this path all the things that we should be grateful for won’t amount to a hill of squat compared to the damage he could end up doing. The party doesn’t need some knock down drag out fight between the independent Senator from Vermont and the DNC. Any positive that was accrued from the injection of social inequality issues into the race will fade with the memories of summer sunshine into a bleak winter. They are going down a dark road. And they is looking more and more to be Weaver and Devine. I think Sanders has somewhat lost control of things.
rikyrah
GOP candidates deliver a subtle threat to N.H. Republicans
12/28/15 10:40 AM—UPDATED 12/28/15 11:23 AM
By Steve Benen
Polls in New Hampshire have been fairly steady for quite a while. Donald Trump has held a consistent lead among Granite State Republicans for months, but his backing has struggled to reach the 30% threshold – suggesting he could be vulnerable to one of the more establishment-friendly candidates, if this faction of the GOP weren’t already being split five ways.
The New York Times reported the other day that Jeb Bush and Chris Christie, both of whom are betting much of their candidacies on the first primary, have started pushing a new line on the campaign trail in the nation’s first primary.
On Monday night, speaking at the Christmas-bedecked American Legion hall in Alton, Mr. Bush picked up where Mr. Christie left off.
“New Hampshire has a special place in our democracy,” Mr. Bush said at his 27th town-hall-style meeting, alluding to its tradition of holding the first primaries, shortly after Iowa’s caucuses. “I, for one, will entrust the voters of New Hampshire to make this decision disproportionately more than any other place. I’m totally confident that you all will maintain your position as first in the nation, that you will be discerning about this.”
Of course, few have suggested New Hampshire won’t maintain its first-in-the-nation status, making this a curious thing for Bush to say.
The implication is subtle – Granite State Republicans wouldn’t take kindly to being threatened – but the underlying argument is that if Trump maintains his lead and actually wins the state’s primary, New Hampshire’s special status could be at risk. After all, the thesis goes, if the state’s GOP voters are going to deliver an important primary victory to Trump, maybe the state should no longer be trusted to have an advantage other states might handle more responsibly.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: The entire Sanders campaign online consists of “quien es mas macho” posturing about who’s the Real Liberal and who’s a corporate warmonger who loves bankers. I don’t think we should let support for Sanders (which is chiefly trash talk against Clinton–mostly Bill and mostly from 20 years ago–anyway) be the litmus test for who’s a liberal and who isn’t.
C.V. Danes
Listen, if Sanders gets the nomination, great. But if he doesn’t, he will still have made Clinton a better candidate, so great too. The main thing is to get off your asses and vote no matter who wins, because without flipping at least the Senate back the Dems all we’re gonna get in 4 more years of the same.
SiubhanDuinne
@OzarkHillbilly:
Here you go.
?
FlipYrWhig
@C.V. Danes: is there anything contact with Bernie DOESNT make better?
lol
@Amir Khalid:
Once the spotlight was off Sanders at the debate, he went right onto the Sunday talk shows and started claiming his staff didn’t try to steal data.
It’s not just his staff.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
I’m not “letting it be a litmus test”. It just bothers me how this argument keeps changing- first Sanders supporters were 300 aging liberals who post a lot on Daily Kos. When it became clear that Sanders was polling ahead of Clinton with young people all of a sudden we don’t need them anyway, because they’re all “Bernie Bros” or whatever. For people who are preaching Party unity you might not want to make a huge “unimportant voters” pile.
God almighty it would be a disaster for Clinton if she had no competition. It would play right into the “dynasty” and “entitled” theme (which I think is bullshit, but is popular). The fact is Clinton didn’t hit her stride in ’08 until she was challenged. She was great in Ohio in ’08 when she was really fighting to survive. I admired her and I was actively working on the Obama side. Obama does best when he’s back on his heels- that’s true of all wildly competitive people.
JCJ
@rikyrah:
If you ever travel like her to Thailand let me know. I am there two or three times a year. We usually stay in Bangkok visiting my wife’s mother. The food she showed in her post is from the food court at a shopping center called Terminal 21. The food there is fantastic!
Gin & Tonic
@FlipYrWhig: I have this stubborn rash on my left foot…
mkro
Oh, man this is hysterical from the Politico story … And classic Politico, still firmly believing that Trump does not represent Republican values:
Bobby Thomson
@Elizabelle: how do you interpret Sanders saying he doesn’t want Obama’s third term? Is that a play for Obama voters? If so, it’s an unusual one.
bystander
Congratulations to Mustang Bobby on his Jon Swift Memorial.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: I don’t care how old or young Team Sanders is. When your opponent has 50% and keeps rising, the issue just maybe isn’t that the corporatists, the media, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz are all in cahoots to embarrass you and silence your mighty voice, but something a tad more straightforward, to wit, that people like someone else better. The constant moaning about the number of debates, oh my God already.
ThresherK (GPad)
@JCJ: “The creme de la creme of the chess world in a show with everything but Yuuuuuul Brynner”.
(Yes, I am in that show’s cult.)
Bobby Thomson
@OzarkHillbilly: plus she’s wrong. If you still support Trump you’re a racist. Them’s the facts.
Frankensteinbeck
Ah, and I remember when the Tea Party were previously politically disengaged moderate, unaffiliated voters who represented the majority and Real America.
@David Koch:
Sorry, but I’m treating all anonymous ‘top campaign adviser’ stories as bullshit pulled out of a reporter’s ass, even if they’re on the Republican side. Too many of those about Obama have turned out to be pure fantasy.
@Elizabelle:
The absolute least racist a Trump supporter can be is that they don’t mind supporting a candidate whose most obvious public statements are scary racist hate speech. That is pretty damn racist, even if they’re not there specifically to hurt minorities. We are not getting these people, and it is a moral travesty, public disservice, and shameful insult to Mexicans and Muslims to ever draw attention away from Trump’s racism.
Kay
@mkro:
What I love about it is how the Politico story is contradicted by the earlier Politico story that is linked in the piece.
That story is about Trump donors who are solidly establishment.
I feel like it’s an effort to put a good face on the reality of Trump- now he’s bringing in new voters, and his list is a huge plus for the GOP.
Kay
@Frankensteinbeck:
It’s not just this campaign either. Birtherism was about race. That was Trump’s entry into GOP politics.
Bobby Thomson
@Amir Khalid: this.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: My recollection of 2012 is that both birtherism and the political media’s interesting Trump were fading when he latched on to b-ism and breathed life back into it. And later Romney started using him as a surrogate
JCJ
@ThresherK (GPad):
Always loved that song, never have seen the show.
FlipYrWhig
@Elizabelle: Nobody who supports Donald Trump is doing it because they feel economic insecurity and want the President to do something about it. They support Trump because they are angry and want to smash things. That is never going to translate into support for Sanders.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Frankensteinbeck: Reminds me of a Simpsons gag during, I believe, Obama’s first term.
Yeah, anyone who’s pretending at this point is a Villager, or the kind of True Principled Conservative found in mathematically-impossible concentrations on NPR message boards.
Bobby Thomson
@Kay: Sanders isn’t a purity pony. People like HA! Goodoneman are. And I think you know what people are really talking about.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
He’s talking about his Wa Po colleague Ruth Marcus. And Richard Cohen probably won’t be far behind
Bobby Thomson
@magurakurin: yeah, I really don’t understand this act. She’s too smart not to understand it.
ThresherK (GPad)
@JCJ: Oh, I could talk your ear off, but I’ll refrain. (My wife says that proselytization is the first sign of cult behavior, if you’re gonna believe a licensed psychotherapist .)
Let’s say I have three different versions of the recording and have dragged my wife to shavings of it in three states. Plus I saw the original on Bway, the one which closed in two months.
amk
can always count on the left firing at each other in a thread that is about the real enemy.
JPL
@bystander: Thanks for the link and that was a column that deserved recognition. It’s nice to see that both John and Tom were on the list also.
JCJ
@ThresherK (GPad):
So are you as much of a cultist as the current fandom of Hamilton? Or perhaps even more so since that has been over 30 years of following this cult!
Bill
@David Koch:
Evidence please.
Frankensteinbeck
@Bobby Thomson:
Kay believes passionately in party inclusion, and is an activist who daily reaches out and tries to get new voters. This is an important viewpoint we need to keep us from getting unhelpfully focused on the unpersuadable elements of our opposition, but it also should be balanced with calling out bullshit where we see it.
C.V. Danes
@FlipYrWhig: Actually, you would be surprised (or maybe not) at the level at which most people–even smart people–just believe what they’re told to believe. The commenters here at BJ are the exception, not the rule. So, yeah, the limited debates and rah rah Clinton and the inevitability meme do make a big difference. The fact that Sanders is polling as well as he is is to his credit, not detriment :-)
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I think it’s great. Older Democrats don’t care and it’s ancient history to younger voters. Is there anything in the history of the United States that has been as thoroughly litigated as Bill Clinton’s infidelity?
I don’t even know how (legit) feminists make the argument. Doesn’t it just lead directly to blaming Hillary Clinton for her husband’s affair? That seems a tad anti-feminist.
gogol's wife
@ThresherK (GPad):
Wow, that is so kitschy! I love it!
I’m in the Hamilton cult now, but I think being in the Chess cult is so much more hard-core.
Is this the guy who’s on the Jesus Christ Superstar concept album? I just ordered that from Amazon.
C.V. Danes
@magurakurin: Who are ‘they’? Everyone I know who is for Sanders has said that they will vote for Clinton if she wins, because they understand that even a corporatist, hawkish Clinton is far better than anyone on the other side.
Kay
@Bobby Thomson:
I genuinely don’t see Sanders’ supporters as threat. Hillary Clinton went up against the Democratic Party on the issue of primary states that broke the rules in ’08. I believe they held an entire tribunal on it, and the Clinton campaign said the Democratic Party was “disenfranchising” voters, which is a direct hit on a core issue for Democrats. No one said “this is a bridge too far- she’s OUT of the Democratic Party due to this divisive and unprofessional behavior”.
bystander
@JPL: Ooops, missed John and Tom. Congrats to both!
This place is starting to get real classy.
Gin & Tonic
@bystander: Schrodinger’s cat, too.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
I don’t see Sanders’ supporters as a threat, either. I think we’re overly sensitized because the ‘I hate everything the Democrats do’ trolls, especially here on BJ, have made Sanders their new shibboleth. They are tiny in number and meaningless in the real world, but damn, they’re annoying and get people punchy.
bystander
I’m glad they caught the affluenza kid. I’m glad there’s a good chance his mother will spend time in jail also. But could the news stop blathering about the defense attorney advancing a Hail Mary defense on behalf of his client? That’s what a defense attorney does when he has no other defense. The issue was the judge, undoubtedly a corrupt judge, who embraced a defense completely at odds with the law.
Kay
@C.V. Danes:
I also think people just want a choice. I don’t agree with Sanders on economic insecurity being the basis of Trump’s appeal, however. My eldest son spends time in Denmark for pleasure travel and he travels in Europe for work. We talked about this specific issue and he made the (great) point that a lot of countries with really robust social safety nets and a “flatter” income distribution have a real nasty anti “outsider” thing going on right now. It isn’t just the US and it isn’t just income inequality.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
Oh, yes. Americans like to think we have some special penchant for racism, but it’s very much not so. Twenty years ago, an Arab immigrant told me that America – Kentucky, even – treated him with way less racism than Europe did.
Man, things went nuts when a black man was elected president, but that doesn’t mean Europe doesn’t have its own thick problems with race.
Poopyman
@Gin & Tonic: And werebear! (AKA Pammy @ Way of Cats).
C.V. Danes
@Kay: I agree. The Trump supporters may be down and out, but they’re choosing to express that by following an outsider who is blatently racist and sexist. That is a choice they’ve made: they’d rather support Trump than be caught with the n-loving hippies.
Betty Cracker
@Bobby Thomson: David Koch (the commenter, not the evil industrialist) above put that “third term” sentence in quotation marks as if Sanders personally said it, but I don’t think he did — I believe it was a Sanders-supporting labor activist. Sanders has been critical of how Obama has handled some issues, particularly economic policy. I think most Obama supporters, including Obama himself, are strong enough to be sanguine in the face of such heresy. But on the internet, not so much.
gogol's wife
@bystander:
I’ve never heard you mention Chess. Did you see it?
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: Agreed. I love Bernie, though I’m not convinced he’s the right man for the job. But he has definitely brought the issues he cares about into sharper focus, and given a credible voice to the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. Fuck yeah, Bernie.
C.V. Danes
@Frankensteinbeck: Yep. I can’t even imagine the Brits electing a black prime minister.
C.V. Danes
@Suzanne: I think the best thing that can happen is an empowered Sanders that will help to keep Clinton’s feet to the fire when she starts to deviate back to center-right on the issues.
Kay
@C.V. Danes:
Sanders has an opportunity to make a better argument. I get that they’re afraid. They can’t just wallow in it, though, and lash out indiscriminately. Ultimately he misses again and again to make the higher road argument. He can show sympathy to economic insecurity (which is real) without pandering to people who sell fear.
srv
@bystander: You blame a judge for the ultimate expression of Dr. Spock’s liberal child rearing ideology?
C.V. Danes
@Kay: Agreed.
FlipYrWhig
@C.V. Danes: Why would Clinton move “center right” on anything, much less “back” in that direction? When was she ever in that direction? On economic policy? On social welfare? On race and inclusion? She’s probably closer to a free trade position. She’s probably more hawkish (although Sanders isn’t exactly a strong clear voice on war and foreign policy, AFAICT). What is center right about her that Sanders pushes her leftwards on?
bystander
@gogol’s wife: God, no. But I do like John Barrowman singing I Know Him So Well with Daniel Boys. Otherwise, I’m not a great admirer. (Doesn’t it sound like his earlier I Don’t Know How to Love Him?)
chopper
@Kay:
of course, but serious competition, not this poisoning-the-well conspiracy theory bullshit. this garbage isn’t going to do a very good job of pushing hillz to the left.
sanders showing his ass like this does nothing to make the primary better.
Matt McIrvin
@OzarkHillbilly:
9/11.
We’ve seen that the attitudes of the US population toward these things can change in an instant in the aftermath of a large terrorist attack. Reasonable liberals and centrists can turn into something close to fascists. George W. Bush, for all his faults, refused to personally goad people into attacks on individual Muslim Americans, or encourage people to regard them as scapegoats. If he or some major politician had, it would have gotten far uglier than it did.
C.V. Danes
@FlipYrWhig: I would place her center-right on economic policy and foreign policy. She did good by denouncing TPP, but she was lukewarm doing so. I wasn’t too happy when she advocated for backoor encryption.
Overall, my feeling is that she will be 95% aligned with Obama on the issues. That’s ok for the most part. She definitely has no illusions when it comes to dealing with Republicans, so that is a plus.
Paul in KY
@amk: Good unfortunate point.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@gogol’s wife: Yes, Murray Head was Judas on the concept album.
gogol's wife
@bystander:
That’s cool.
Are you going to see School of Rock?
dogwood
I realize I’m an outlier on this forum, but in the Democratic primary season I generally don’t choose a candidate based on “policy” or “issues”. And I’ve never been a single issue voter. They’re all democrats so their positions are similar. And since Congress passes the laws,I’m not interested in arguing about the differences in various policy proposals that will never matter in a practical sense. A president is head of government, head of the party, head of state, chief diplomat, commander in chief and the ceremonial front person for the nation. As a primary voter I’m looking for the candidate who can function best in all these roles. In 2008 I chose Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton because I believed he was best suited temperamently for the job. I believe I made the correct choice. In 2016, I’m fine with supporting Sec. Clinton because she checks off those boxes far better than Sanders.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: I sometimes listen to John Fuglesang’s show on Sirius. Yesterday he was having a go around with Bob Cesca about 2016 and he made a sort of off-hand remark about how it will be hard for Republicans to run against HRC because they agree on so many issues. It really pissed me off. The environment, gay rights, abortion rights, Obamacare, tax policy , the minimum wage…. All of that gets blown out of the water because of a lack of emotional appeal. It was, as I said, an off-hand remark, but I think it does typify a “what forest? look at these six trees!” attitude I see around the inner-tubes.
Paul in KY
@dogwood: See your reasons & they are good. I’m looking for who I think has best shot to win in general. That’s why I chose Pres. Obama back in 2008. Leaning to Hillary right now.
Goblue72
@David Koch: That 40 year old shit that was actually a ham fisted attempt at satire has been thoroughly addressed months ago when Republicans brought it up.
Or should we also go talk about how Hillary was once a Goldwater Girl? Or that the potential First Husband stuck his cock in an intern’s mouth and then perjured himself about it?
schrodinger's cat
@Gin & Tonic: Thanks for the shout out.
BTW what’s your favorite brand of gin. I usually go with Bombay Sapphire or Beefeaters.
Anoniminous
@BillinGlendaleCA:
They lied.
dogwood
@Paul in KY:
I think Hillary would have won in ’08 pretty easily as well, so electability wasn’t much of an issue for me at the time. However, I suspect that Sanders isn’t quite as electable as his supporters assume.
Gin & Tonic
@schrodinger’s cat: For mixing with tonic I like regular Bombay. Sapphire is better for a martini. But I also have a lot of artisanal gins – craft distilling in the US is growing like craft brewing did 20 years ago, and gin is one of the first things you can make and sell (the brown whiskies take 3-4 years in the barrel, and that sucks for cash flow.) So there’s an awful lot of creativity. One of the best I’ve had recently is from a distillery called St. George, in Alameda, CA.
chopper
@Goblue72:
“should we”? berniacs have been raving about that forever.
and why is it that so much about sanders seems aptly described as ‘ham-fisted’?
Bobby Thomson
@Kay: now you’re just engaging in revisionist history. I gave her holy hell for that and so did most of the people here.
And it’s not like we didn’t tee off on the PUMAs daily.
Bobby Thomson
@Betty Cracker: it’s not a question of heresy. It’s a question of doomed marketing to racists, based on a historically inaccurate view that class consciousness will override ethnic differences, rather than doing a Willy Sutton and going where the votes are. My feelings aren’t hurt. I just don’t think he’s running an effective national campaign.
Paul in KY
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: ‘Agreeing on issues’ has never stopped Repubs from obscuring those facts & trying to savage an opponent.
Elizabelle
Your menu: Betty put up a fresh thread, on today’s NY Times report on the uberwealthy buying themselves their very own tax policy. (Why stop with merely purchasing Congress?)
Eight minutes later, JCole is up with a thread on police misconduct.
Carry on.
Just One More Canuck
@C.V. Danes: maybe you could clarify how she is centre-right on economic and foreign policy. Your argument for her being center-right seems to consist of she wasn’t enthusiastic enough in her denunciation of TPP. What would have met your criteria?
Anoniminous
Clinton is going to be the nominee. She has a 26% national lead. She has an overwhelming lead among women (duh) and, as PPP noted, “Clinton leads with every group we track.”
The primary will be over on March 2.
WereBear
I don’t mind that Sanders is a single-issue kind of candidate. It is an enormous issue that is draining the country of its power and potential, its talent and industry and leadership.
It affects the entire 99%. Yes, we still must fight racism and sexism. But there’s no reason we can’t support other leaders for that. Who else was bringing up the rampant inequality? It wasn’t even spoken of since Occupy folded their tents. Who else points out the horror of using our population as a cash cow for the already ridiculously wealthy?
This is exactly why we have primaries. No one has to slag Bernie for being Bernie. (I’m in upstate New York and have been familiar with his work.) Why not say he’s right?
He doesn’t have to be President to make an impact. Neither do we.
chopper
@Paul in KY:
i was looking to vote for sanders in the primary as a message to the dem establishment that it needs to listen more to progressive economic populism in spite of knowing full well that sanders is not going to win the nom. but at this point i can’t rationalize pulling the lever for such a shit show campaign even just to ‘send a message’.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Kay: You must be new here.
Betty Cracker
@Bobby Thomson: If you can’t see that some people have over-the-top reactions to any criticism of President Obama, further discussion is pointless. It’s a thing, even if you don’t see it.
I don’t think Sanders will be the nominee either, but that’s all the more reason not to make shit up about him or go out of your way to piss off his supporters. It’s just not honest or smart.
dogwood
@Bobby Thomson:
Bernie isn’t a natural politician my any means. It’s not surprising that he would defend the Trump voters because his constituency in this election is angry citizens. There are plenty of them on the Republican side, so it’s natural that he would want to appeal to them. I don’t know how far he will go when the voting starts, but my guess is he will ultimately be derailed by the same set of circumstances that derailed Clinton in ’08. A failure to win black votes, and an inabilility to even get Obama’s share of the Latino vote from that primary season.
Bobby Thomson
@Betty Cracker: I agree to an extent, but the kid gloves came off when his campaign lied about what it did and what the DNC did to fundraise. If they want a war, we shall have war.
FlipYrWhig
@C.V. Danes: So you’re saying she’s center right because on TPP she took a center left position without enough oomph. That seems like kind of a reach, no?
Betty Cracker
@Bobby Thomson: I agree that Sanders’ campaign staff is awful (Weaver and Devine, at any rate — the others might be fine; I don’t know). And that’s ultimately on Sanders.
ThresherK (GPad)
@JCJ: Hamilton isn’t a cult. Too successful with critics and audiences. It may be the Big Thing on the Tonycast next year.
Also @ Gogol’s wife, Murray,Head played the male lead on the album of Chess, known as The American, and also was on the original Jesus Christ Superstar LP. Tim Rice wrote the lyrics for both.
The ABBA songwriters did Chess’ music, and contributed to the book. So the success of their jukebox musical Mamma Mia is a bit of a sore,spot; it’s a pleasant trifle which only encourages more jukebox musicals. (Really, is Rock of Ages in any manner a piece of musical theatre?)
Okay, /little rant.
David Koch
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David Koch
@Betty Cracker: @Betty Cracker: nope. UR wrong.
That’s their strategy, stated explicitly, for public consumption, by the person running Sanders’s campaign strategy. Sanders himself has said on the Chris Hayes show that he doesn’t want to build on Obama’s terms, that they were insufficient and he’s calling for a revolution.
They’re welcome to run against a 3rd Obama term. They’re welcome to say the foundation of their candidacy is “people don’t want a 3rd Obama term.”
Just don’t expect that to appeal to Obama supporters. Which was my point.
Now, this could have been easily found doing a routine google search. Sadly you engage in distortions by saying I’m distorting – which by your own definition puts you n sad company. This happens too often by people enchanted by Sanders’s utopianism, who don’t want to hear any inconvenient truth.
J R in WV
@srv:
The good Mayor was convicted. The Clintons were not even indicted. Without that, you don’t even have to stand trial. There was a $40-million investigation IIRC.
I thought you were at least a little familiar with the US legal system?
J R in WV
@schrodinger’s cat:
Hendricks. Unique flavors. but expensive, so I also do Bombay Sapphire.