There’s been a lot of comments in our posts about what is going on with the standoff in Harney County, Oregon regarding law enforcement responses. While several of our commenters with knowledge of the area have explained just how remote it is, I wanted to take a moment and provide some vital statistics to clarify our understanding and discussions. Harney County has a very small population, about 7,500 and a lot of land area – 10,226 square miles. So its got a lot of space and not a lot of people. From poking about on the county’s websites it appears to have at least three, and maybe five, full timers with the Harney Sheriff’s Department. The Sheriff, his chief deputy the Lieutenant Sheriff, and an LEDS Coordinator. They all appear to be double and triple hatted in terms of their responsibilities. The City of Burns Police Department has three officers – the Chief and two officers – and an administrative assistant.
Between Burns and Harney County there are no more than ten law enforcement officers and more likely five total with two administrative personnel (depending on what an LEDS Coordinator is). That’s perfectly fine for a low population density area with a lot of farms, ranches, and tourism bordering Nevada, but its not a lot when dealing with even ten to fifteen out of towners who brought more firepower than food show up and announce they’re going to stay for a while as they solicit for back up and support to join them. Not that we want to turn this into a military thing, but the US Army doctrine for dealing with a group of insurgents calls for 20-25 counterinsurgents in order to secure a 1,000 person population. That’s the population of an area, not the number of insurgents, and its a recommendation that says that it varies by the context of events. That said, given the limited law enforcement resources in Harney County and Burns combined we might just want to cut these folks a bit of slack. Based on what they have on hand and to work with, they are doing just fine.
schrodinger's cat
Isn’t it best to ignore these losers and not give them the free publicity they so desperately seek.
Wag
Context is everything. Thanks for the perspective.
Cain
Perhaps if the city of Burns were to form a militia to remove these people…
Citizen_X
But I heard at the FBI was taking charge of the situation, because it involves federal land/facilities. Was that wrong?
feebog
So, even with help from other agencies, shutting down access to the Center itself may be beyond the capabilities of the local Sheriff. Obviously they have other duties besides watching a bunch of loons hang out in a bird sanctuary.
Doug R
Oregon State Patrol might have to pull some guys from the coast, now that we know where the real jihadis are.
AnotherBruce
Thank you for looking up this info. I agree that the local law enforcement is doing the best they can with a situation that can be potentially very dangerous. I also take this a bit personally because I’ve taken several (5 or more) visits to that area. Mostly to the Alvord Desert and Steens Mountain, but also the wildlife area. It gnaws on me that these interlopers have sealed off critical parts of this area that should be open to the public. I’m also pretty sure that they intend to poach wildlife there to survive. This is really sad, migratory birds are having a bad enough time finding ever diminishing habitat as it is. If these clowns had their way, all of that would be gone. Because they think they have a right to privately own this land. They are selfish and greedy people. I hope they will be peaceably arrested soon, but I don’t think that’s going to happen. Some of them have already expressed the fact that they have a death wish.
oz29
An LEDS Administrator is the person responsible for NLETS/NCIC/departmental database data entry and in some small counties in Oregon is the custodian of records for departmental information. Definitely not someone who would venture into the field with a gun.
cahuenga
@schrodinger’s cat:
Exactly. All they want is attention, deny them this and they will evaporate.
pat
crooksandliars has a report that these loons are Mormon extremists.
Sorry I can’t do links…. easy enough to find on BJ’s Blogroll.
Shell
Still think its hilarious that these anti-government morons want people to send them supplies delivered by…..the US Post Office.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
If it’s Federal land couldn’t we bring federal resources to bear? I mean, I don’t expect local law enforcement to tackle these bozos but the Feds aught to be able to. I say surround them and starve them out – nobody and nothing gets in or out until they surrender. If they fire a shot in anger then it’s open season on all of them.
Brachiator
I haven’t been much following this story, because it doesn’t seem much more than a small group of idiots trying to gain attention.
I am mildly curious about a couple of things. Does anyone know if these nutballs are getting much attention or expressions of support in social media?
And I guess that the authorities have not over-reacted, which is a good thing.
Also, I guess the folks these goons were trying to support were supposed to report to prison what, today? this week? Has this happened?
Felonius Monk
What’s interesting here is that it appears that a number of anti-government militia groups have condemned what these bozos are doing. So it remains to be seen what kind of external support they are going to get. Even old man Bundy said this thing was kind of stupid.
Betty Cracker
I’m still catching up on older posts about this story, which broke while I was off the grid. Omnes Omnibus made a good point here when he said the following:
I mostly agree — resolving crimes and rounding up domestic and foreign terrorists peacefully is obviously preferable to bloodshed, and patience may enable a more just resolution. But on the other hand, there’s such a thing as a too hands-off approach, isn’t there?
Have mooch-rancher Cliven Bundy and his crew faced any consequences for their armed confrontation with the feds almost two years ago? It seems Bundy is still strutting around on his taxpayer subsidized ranch pontificating about government tyranny. As far as I know, no one went to jail for threatening the lives of federal employees at Bundy’s welfare ranch. In light of that, the latest action by these clowns isn’t surprising.
Adam L Silverman
@Citizen_X: no, that’s what is happening. But there was a fair amount of criticism of what the sheriff hadn’t done or could be doing while the FBI is getting spun up.
Peale
@Brachiator
Based on me own FB feed, lots of the usual shares by the usual nuts who think it’s time someone stood up to our communist government.
Hoodie
@schrodinger’s cat: Sounds like they’re already pretty isolated. Maybe ignore them and when the next shiny object grabs the media’s attention, they’ll be forgotten and depart before the next birding season. Those reporters will quickly get tired of eating the breakfast buffet muffins at the Silver Spur Motel and then heading out to freeze their asses off watching a bunch of loons nesting in their native camo.
Adam L Silverman
@pat: I’m going to do a post on that sort of stuff later this evening.
Mnemosyne
No idea if this is possible, but can the governor call up the OR National Guard for this kind of situation?
Gin & Tonic
@pat: Shouldn’t we be closely monitoring the clerics who radicalized these terrorists?
Adam L Silverman
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: the FBI will have their command post up today.
Southern Beale
I get that nobody wants to legitimize/empower these crackpots but is there a reason the governor can’t call in the National Guard to help out? I don’t get the sense that anyone outside of the far fringe nutters is supporting these assholes and frankly I’m tired of the Feds looking weak and helpless in the face of these threats. I can’t help but feel this wouldn’t have happened if the BLM hadn’t have caved and returned papa Cliven’s cattle to him way back.
I really do feel like the best response is just to make fun of them, point and laugh, and bringing in the National Guard is the opposite of that. On the other hand, I think this shit needs to be nipped in the bud.
I’m not familiar with this area but I’ve been to plenty of remote federal lands before. Why were they allowed to have visitors bring in supplies? There’s usually just one access road, why isn’t it blocked? How is this visitor’s center powered, is it propane? Can’t they cut the power or something? Cut the water supply?
mmeep
What interests me is the reaction among various interest groups.
Anyone watching Fox (gulp) to know what the news angle is? I’ve read that the #FailQueda invasion is being justified as a move against “big gubmint” and of course they are polite, with no looters.
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: the Hammonds report today for Federal prison in California.
Southern Beale
@Gin & Tonic:
Indeed. HOW WERE THEY RADICALIZED is a question that needs to be answered. My guess: Fox News.
Southern Beale
@mmeep:
Yes, they’re polite, no looters. Just those AR-15s slung across their backs. Which is a little … I dunno, thugish?
Gin & Tonic
@Felonius Monk: a number of anti-government militia groups
Not picking on you necessarily for this framing, but isn’t “anti-government militia” an oxymoron, at least in US Constitutional terms? What makes them a “militia” as opposed to “armed thugs” or “terrorists”?
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: yes, but… They could be mobilized under Title 32, but would still not have law enforcement authority. So you’d have bodies, but there would still be limits what you could do with them.
Southern Beale
@Brachiator:
TN state Rep. Andy Holt Tweeted last night that he wanted to know how to support the cause, then realizing he was probably committing sedition, deleted it.
Adam L Silverman
@Southern Beale: it’s not blocked because the Feds are not their in force yet and the locals don’t have the resources to lock things down.
raven
@Southern Beale: This shit has been going on much longer than Fox has even existed.
“The Sagebrush Rebellion was a movement during the 1970s and 1980s that sought major changes to federal land control, use and disposal policy in the American West where, in 13 western states, federal land holdings include between 20% and 85% of a state’s area.[1][2] Notably, supporters of this movement wanted more state and local control over these lands, if not outright transfer of them to state and local authorities and/or privatization. As much of the land in question is sagebrush steppe, supporters adopted the name Sagebrush Rebellion. The sentiment survives into the 21st century with pressure from some individual citizens, politicians, and organized groups especially with respect to livestock grazing, mineral extraction, and other economic development policy for these lands.”
Southern Beale
@Adam L Silverman:
OK thanks. Let’s get some Muslim Brotherhood and Occupy Wall Street folks in there to “help out.” You know, like how the RW nuts showed up to help out in Feguson? That would be HILARIOUS!
yellowdog
They should just send in the Park Police. They are the meanest motherf*****rs I’ve ever run across. And they have a very BROAD definition of their area of jurisdiction.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@Southern Beale:
Self-styled militias have a history out west that dates back to at least the 1980s. Their radical beliefs concerning Federal lands use go back to the 1950s or early 1960s.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Ammon Bundy was arrested and charged last year in Nevada on a different issue. My understanding from media reports and statements in the news last year is that the Feds and the state and local Nevada folks no who was involved, but everyone is proceeding cautiously because of the chance for volatile responses. Even if you could safely and easily arrest Cliven Bundy, doing that would trigger open season on BLM personnel. One of the two militia commanders at Bundy’s, who is also at Malheur, is a retired Marine and the husband of. NH state legislator – one from Frank Luntz!’s focus group.
Everyone involved on the Bundy side has a completely alternate understanding of US history, the constitution, the power of the government, and it’s law enforcement and other enforcement powers. Many of them live in open carry and/or shall issue conceal carry states and are known to be heavily armed. There rhetoric, expressed online and off, is often incendiary trending towards the violent. All of this contributes to the seemingly glacial response to what occurred at Bundy’s ranch.
jl
Thanks to AS for very informative posts that give insights into how and why things play out the way they do. I hope the Cheetos Boys in their visitor center bunker don’t read this blog, since you might be revealing invaluable opsec sitrep intel for the briesesses, or whatever juvenile tacop games they are playing out in their pretty little heads.
@Gin & Tonic:
I agree there is a problem with nomenclature on what to call these dopes. They do think they are the real deal constitutional militia in the fantasy dungeons and dragons world of a nation of independent counties ruled by local sheriffs that has been usurped by the fraudulent amendments, admiralty courts and US admiralty flags with the fringe on top.
I guess we need to come up with an appropriate name for them. Terrorists seems kind of wrong, compared to Daesh and OK City bombers. Maybe idiotic unprepared armed protesters who do not know what their demands are (IUAPWDKNWTDA, naw, the acronym doesn’t work)
buford puser
Shouldn’t a bunch of treasonous white yahoos with assault rifles occupying a federal building with the avowed intent of killing any legitimate authorities who intervene merit at least as, um, kinetic a response as an informant’s report that there may be marijuana in a particular dwelling? Of course Oregon has legalized but i mean elsewhere. Such warrant executions often or perhaps typically involve flashbangs at 5am, followed by massive armed entry and shooting anyone who resists. Why should the Malheur terrorists’ actions be considered less threatening to society than the possibility that there may be marijuana in a dwelling?
Zinsky
I think this would be a good test population to try some new weaponry on – like microwave rays that make the recipients skin feel like it is on fire, white phosphorous flash grenades and those thermal vacuum bombs that explode above a battlefield and literally suck the lungs out of the combatants chest.
Let these morons and their next of kin see how goddamn foolish, quaint and utterly useless their “Second Amendment remedies” are. While they are scraping up what’s left of these handjobs with a putty knife, maybe they will think twice about trying to act all tough and everything.
raven
@buford puser: Suit up.
dogwood
This just isn’t going to turn out the way these kooks intended. Ted Cruz appears to be the first republican candidate to weigh in and he ain’t supporting them anymore. As I said in an earlier thread, this could be an opening for Rubio or Jeb to go after Cruz because they didn’t jump on the Bundy bandwagon the first time around.
gene108
@cahuenga:
Pa’ Bundy isn’t getting much attention now. He hasn’t evaporated or turned himself in.
You can ignore them, but it doesn’t mean they will go away.
jl
@jl: Ammon Bundy also seems to have a fantasy history of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. it being two large ranches sold to the feds after the families got tired of bothering with them, between 1930 and 1941. But then, maybe that is federal government misinformation, who knows?
Cacti
Allowing Cliven Bundy to defy the law is exactly what has emboldened these losers.
Ignoring the current issue will bring about more of the same. It’s time to nip this shit in the bud.
Mike in NC
Headline in USA Today: ALL EYES ON MILITIA STANDOFF IN OREGON
Meanwhile, which GOP presidential candidate will criticize these domestic terrorists? (I’ll go with “None of them, Katie!)
buford puser
@raven: Sadly, i do not work in federal law enforcement, and have retired from my former employment as a county Sheriff due to having been dead since 1974.
Capt. Seaweed
No Oregon Nat. Guard, please. I don’t want he pictures to say “armed stand-off”. I want the visuals to be “Loons Seize Bird Sanctuary”.
Southern Beale
@Capt. Seaweed:
I see your point.
Bobby Thomson
@Betty Cracker: yeah, when I hear “let’s just let this resolve itself they’ll starve and give up” I hear someone who doesn’t want to do anything about it and won’t take even minimal risks. Waiting Bundy out didn’t work in Nevada.
Neither did James Buchanan’s approach. Yeah, these are not exactly logistic wizards we’re dealing with and likely won’t have the staying power of the folks in Nevada (who are quickly washing their hands of them) but there’s a nasty precedent that’s only getting firmer. When even Ted Cruz recognizes the problem, it’s a problem.
lgerard
Perhaps they should just send the Sheriff Ward’s 74 year old mother out to deal with these clowns.
They all seem to be afraid of her.
raven
@buford puser: Then I guess you’ll just have to let the people who are there handle it.
Southern Beale
@Zinsky:
All hail the Active Denial System. Which seems to have been created to target anti-war liberals, like so many of these “crowd control devices.” But we aren’t the ones showing up to events armed to the teeth, are we? We’re the ones with the goddamn drum circles and puppets.
Sigh.
Bobby Thomson
@dogwood: no, Rubio also went out on the limb of defending the rule of law.
BillinGlendaleCA
@buford puser: You’ve obviously never see Reefer Madness.
Soylent Green
I work in the Portland federal building, where my boss is a bear holding a shovel.
I’m sure the FBI is on the case, but it takes time to mobilize to this remote location — fly to Portland, then to Redmond, Oregon, then a long drive to the wildlife refuge. Driving time from Portland is about six hours. If the feds want to assemble a well-armed force to control the site, it will take them a few days to do so.
Although the facility being occupied belongs to the Fish and Wildlife Service, the folks who work for the Forest Service district office in Burns as well as for the Bureau of Land Management office there have been asked to stay home. Even on other districts of the Malheur National Forest, (so I hear from a friend on the Malheur) the staff is on alert. The reasonable concern is that some nutcase may confront them violently. Here in Portland, we are watched over by the Federal Protective Service, a unit of Homeland Security. I don’t know if FPS will be involved in this case, as there are no federal workers at the site.
This hostility that some of the rural people have toward federal land managers is not new, and sometimes our people out there are threatened or harassed, occasionally with violence.
Cacti
@Bobby Thomson:
This
The Bundy-ites are testing a soft target. Ignore the problem and the next target might be a building occupied with federal employees and members of the public.
Davebo
I certainly don’t want to see bloodshed either but I’m pretty pissed at the government response at all levels.
Nearly 48 hours after they took the facility the area is not only still unsecured but there seems to be no local, state or federal LEO presence at all.
Women and children have been allowed to join the militants and now they are calling on others to come join the cause. By all indications power and water have not been cut either.
Perhaps they have some reasoning behind the total inaction and I get that they want to keep their cards close to the vest on how they are dealing with this but this is ridiculous.
Archon
What I’ve always found crazy about anti-government talk, especially as a black man is that no nation in history has treated it’s citizens more benignly then the U.S government has treated white American men. And it’s not even close.
If this isn’t tied to race directly or indirectly, I genuinely don’t understand these anti-government types.
max
Not that we want to turn this into a military thing, but the US Army doctrine for dealing with a group of insurgents calls for 20-25 counterinsurgents in order to secure a 1,000 person population.
It’s Federal turf, so the calls on Federal turf belong to the Rangers (who are police, of a sort) and the Feds, usually the FBI. I assume the state police will pitch in.
That said, this amounts, so far, to a heavily armed sit-in conducted by a bunch of loud mouths. I have no big problems with the slow response.
(And based on the the one picture I’ve seen of the location, they’re setting up with long sight lines so they can conduct sniper fire. Which I read as meaning the encircling perimeter established will have to be pretty wide. However, it shouldn’t be too difficult to shut down traffic in and out, especially if there’s a helo available.)
They picked a way the fuck out there location, so it’s hard to get rolling on cutting them off, but they HAVE picked a way the fuck out there location, so it won’t be hard to deny them resources.
max
[‘I think they’ve been taking practical tips from the Saudi foreign ministry.’]
Origuy
Much of that wildlife refuge was once the Malheur Indian Reservation. White settlers encroached upon reservation land until the federal government closed it and moved the Paiutes to a reservation near Yakima.
Davebo
@Soylent Green:
We aren’t talking about needing tanks and humvees here. Just some manpower that could easily have been sent from the Portland field office and supplemented by agents from San Francisco and Seattle if needed.
CNN, MSNBC and Fox sure managed to get people and equipment there pretty freaking fast. There is absolutely no excuse for at least having the only freaking road into the facility still unsecured.
Capt. Seaweed
@Southern Beale: Also too I can only imagine how much it would cost the State to mobilize and establish a Guard presence to babysit these yahoos. Rather spend that cash elsewhere doing something needed…
Brachiator
@Peale:
And these jokers are doing this on public, i.e., communal land. Seems pretty commie to me.
Thanks for the info.
dogwood
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again):
Radical views about federal land use go back a lot father than the 1950’s.
Chip Daniels
@Archon:
I saw a comment on another site that perceptively pointed out how a bunch of armed white guys rising up against the government is America’s founding mythology.
Except it ONLY applies to white guys- you never see a bunch of black guys running around with tricorner hats and speaking in 18th century English about watering the tree of liberty, and even if we did, no one would take them seriously.
The rightwing drapes their rhetoric in that mythology, everything from their costumes, to word usage, to imagery, trying to borrow the legitimacy of the Founders.
That legitimacy is systematically denied black folks. Any armed black man angrily shouting is not seen as Nathan Hale, but a thug. Race is the undercurrent datum line that ties most of our political impulses together.
mmeep
@Southern Beale:
Yes, agreed! But white Murkin thuggish, so there’s that.
Davebo
@max: It is basically a prairie with the only trees for miles being right around the buildings on the facility.
But still. A 500 to 750 yard from center perimeter would probably be pretty safe. These aren’t sharpshooters we’re dealing with.
And again, can we at least ensure no one is getting in or out through the only available access road??
Mike J
@Archon:
Cliven Bundy will happily tell you all about “the negro”.
jl
@Cacti: Any sensible person would hope that they will richly deserve the news headline “Armed morons wreck plumbing and run out of cheetos at bird sanctuary” as some commenters have indicated is the appropriate description.
I suppose how complicated this gets depends on how many armed morons decide to come to their aid. If many do, it may not be possible to avoid tricky situations. If not, I suppose the news will get tired or reporting the weekly government charity food and clothing deliveries, and they will give up eventually.
kc
@Adam L Silverman:
So . .. Cliven Bundy just gets a pass, I guess?
I guess the key to getting away with brazen lawbreaking is just to have a lot of armed supporters.
dogwood
I also noticed that the Burns school district postponed its return from Christmas vacation for another week. This ain’t gonna win more sympathy for the Bundys from the locals. Unscheduled school closures are a nightmare for working families.
kc
@Betty Cracker:
@Adam L Silverman:
So, to sum up Mr. Silverman’s response, the answer to the question whether Bundy & his crew have faced any consequences is “Nope. Because reasons.”
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Again, I have no experience with this kind of stuff, but I would think the National Guard would be useful for, well, guard duty — surround the place, cut the water and power, and make sure no one gets in or out until a surrender is negotiated.
I know that the Feds are nervous about doing “a show of force” type stuff after the fiascos at Ruby Ridge and Waco, but a true siege with no attempt to force them out might actually work, especially since it ain’t going to get any warmer up there until at least March. Let them sit in the cold and the dark for a while.
jl
@kc: I’m wondering about that point too. IIRC, open season opened up on a few BLM people anyway, and probably will again if armed morons with less and less impulse control get drawn into this shit show.
Origuy
So this is happening.
Brachiator
@kc:
Only if you are white.
Bobby Thomson
@Adam L Silverman: very Bucananesque.
buford puser
The Malheur terrorists have now posted a call for people to send “supplies or snacks” to the post office in Burns.
Perhaps they have not fully thought out this “siege” thing? Their logistic plan involves traveling many miles to a different federal facility to pick up snacks?
kc
@Cacti:
Nah, they’ll just take over a more scenic national park.
catclub
@Southern Beale:
it would be funny if those people came in, ate all the food, and then left.
jl
@kc:
” I guess the key to getting away with brazen lawbreaking is just to have a lot of armed supporters. ”
Hey it’s worked for us white guys of a minimum social station for a long time, why give up trick that works.
Also works with a lot of mega-rich supporters.
But, joking aside, it is disgusting BS. Also, I find the double standard with which our worthless corporate media covers this mess disgusting.
Keith G
It seems to be to be an outright bit of benevolence that the insurrectionists chose a very remote location for their proof of concept.
No hurry. No need to draw guns and allow for an unwanted escalation.
Just make sure no one else gets in and give these heroes a chance to come down a bit from their adrenaline high. Let them complain about the jack-booted forces of a tyrannical government that just simply will not show up to play their silly game. And let the rest of see and continue to be able to prove just how “out of it” these petty criminals are.
kc
@Davebo:
Whoa, is that true? That is just inexcusable. (the children, not the women)
Punchy
@dogwood: Why did they close the schools? I’ve heard this Bird Haus is miles and miles and miles from civilization. Like 30+ miles from downtown. What in the hell do schools need to be closed for?
kc
@buford puser:
Hey, why the hell not? So far, they’ve done whatever they pleased.
At this rate I wouldn’t be surprised to see the feds provide them with an armed escort to pick up their goodies.
catclub
@Mnemosyne:
How many law officers are you suggesting maintain a peaceful blockade/ 500yd perimeter? Those are the people who would be in the cold and dark. Whose police budget pays for the overtime?
jl
Rubio dips his toe in the water of mealy mouthing half sense about it:
Rubio On Oregon Militia Takeover: ‘You Can’t Be Lawless’
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/rubio-ammon-bundy-oregon-lawless
Soylent Green
@Davebo: Burns is a small town, and the local gendarmes are sensitive about how their actions might be taken locally by their friends and neighbors, although I agree with you that it is very peculiar if there is still no police presence on the refuge HQ access road. As for the FBI driving their rigs from Portland, we just had an ice storm here, and the mountain passes are a mess — slow-going with tire chains.
Mnemosyne
@jl:
Most accounts I’ve seen of the Whiskey Rebellion are that the distillers refused to pay their taxes and physically threatened the tax collectors, which led to Washington (and his right-hand man) showing up with an army of a couple thousand troops saying, “Fuck you, pay me,” and the whole thing dissolved.
I’m assuming that the Feds are afraid that showing up with 500 Guardsmen will inflame the paranoids, but not doing a show of force doesn’t seem to be helping much.
Sherparick
@Adam L Silverman: There are also white, of old Protestant stock. If people were interested in seeing what the term “white privilege” (and by the way, I am white, of old Protestant stock), this is what means. Being white, they can pretty much engage in terroristic threats and imply violent retaliation to Federal law enforcement agents, and expect lots of social, political, and media protection. If this was a group of Nez Perce, the FBI would be forming assault teams. See also what happens if Blacks open carry in Ohio, Chicago, or Missouri.
By the way, what part of this law have these guys not broken.
18 USC Section 2823, Rebellion and Insurrection: Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
catclub
@Chip Daniels:
I think it is the reverse. They would be taken far too seriously, while the white guys are only considered to be an art project.
Davebo
@kc: It’s been reported by the Oregonian via a witness who visited the facility and claims to be part of the movement.
Peltier elaborated on her encounters in a phone interview Sunday with The Oregonian/OregonLive, saying some in the group are armed and others are not. She said protesters are moving freely in and out of the facility and are bringing children onto the grounds Sunday. The Oregonian/OregonLive was unable to confirm whether children were with the protesters.
jl
TPM post says Cruz wants the armed loons to surrender peacefully.
Davebo
@Soylent Green: It’s not the locals responsibility. And again, unless there’s more than meets the eye there’s no excuse.
Do the news outlets have some kind of super vans that the Feds don’t?
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@jl: That’s how virtually all the Federal land in the West was obtained. Homesteaders and ranchers claimed it, realized they couldn’t make a living on it, and hence sold it or handed it back to the Federal Government. Cliven Bundy is a case in point – he wants to be able to graze his cattle on that land but he can’t even make enough money doing that to pay Federal grazing fees. If they let him, he’d overuse the land and go bankrupt, just like his ancestors did.
Mnemosyne
@catclub:
I’m proposing that the National Guard be in charge of the perimeter, not law enforcement. Where does the National Guard’s budget normally get paid from?
The other advantage of using National Guardsmen is that you can rotate them in and out more frequently than law enforcement since there are more of them available.
dogwood
@Soylent Green:
I’m pretty sure Burns is much closer to Boise than it is to Portland. So that might be where the Feds will land.
Peale
I suppose this is why the government of Yemen was never able to rid itself of Al Qaeda even when it wanted to and even when we were offering our assistance.
:
Amanda in the South Bay
@Adam L Silverman: Why would they not have law enforcement powers if the governor called them up without Title 32 or any Federal authorization? Surely that’s totally legal? This would seem to indicate that they’d have law enforcement powers without any federal authorization http://www.ngaus.org/sites/default/files/Guard%20Statues.pdf
jl
@Mnemosyne: I don’t think the federal government acted until the rebels beat up a federal tax agent and burned down his house, or post office, or something.
I hope that other armed morons who are thinking about helping get discouraged when they realize the difficulty and inconvenience of delivering snacks, and this group can be isolated and it turns into a joke.
Even the GOP presidential contestants are putting them at a distance, as are Oath Keepers and LDS, and pretty much anyone with an once of sense, as TPM blog reports today on its front page.
Edit: though it seems like both Rubio and Cruz are playing along with airing of legitimate fantasy BS grievances, which in the long run is an important facilitating factor.
Davebo
I’d love to see them send in an EA-18 Growler out of NAS Whidbey Island to shut down all cellular, TV and Radio communication in the area. No more stupid Youtube video posts from the terrorists.
The press would hate it but really, who cares?
Keith G
@Brachiator:
Remind me…Who are the two persons at the top of federal law enforcement decision and policy making for our nation’s government?
You think those two buy into the “only if you are white” philosophy?
Or are you (and other geniuses up thread) saying that our President and the two Attorneys General have been too feckless and out of touch to be leaders in this growing story line?
bystander
Omens, quoted by Betty Cracker:
For me it’s not a question of the federal response. It’s the media’s lack thereof. Could be that they’re all in agreement that all their free advertising dollars will go to Trump. But I find it curious that Faux and CNN and Moanin’ Joe could be ululating and pretending their collective hair was on fire while bemoaning the weak, weak, weak Kenyan’s faltering and dithering. Did you catch the coverage of the hotel fire in Dubai? If the real reason they are passing on a desperate ratings grab is because they realize what lawless a&&holes these guys are, I’ll keel over.
Chaplain Weasle Forsythe
I think the fact that it IS remote, sparsely populated and has a police presence that is much like that on the Netflix show “Fargo” is why the VanillaISIS has chosen this particular location to be the point of their “stand” or whatever the heck it is.
I don’t want Federal, State or Local police/law enforcement to have to risk their lives for these yahoos.
F’it, we should just send in a drone(s).
The Golux
@Mnemosyne:
Things would move along more quickly if there were a way to introduce a strong laxative into the water supply rather than turning it off.
Chaplain Weasle Forsythe
@Davebo: I’m with you on that one.
Jam their signals, take away any Wi-Fi, heat, and water.
Paul T
This is funny…Vanilla Isis? Ya’ll Qaeda? Take your pick!!
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/yall-qaeda-twitter-users-mock-oregon-right-wing-militia-action-and-its-awesome/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link
buford puser
While it’s shameful that those anxious to water the tree of liberty would bring kids, the apparent open perimeter the terrorists are maintaining means they will be thoroughly infiltrated by undercover Fibbys pretty darn soon if not already.
Peale
@The Golux: My guess is that there’s no water supply to cut and no power lines either. It seems like the kind of place that would have it’s own well or get water shipped into a tank, unless the wealthy people of Burns decided to run a sewer line 30 miles outside of town for a bird sanctuary that probably doesn’t have more than 10 staff on a good day.
Gin & Tonic
@The Golux: Given what everybody with local knowledge has said about the place, I’m pretty certain that the facility (which is a small office with little use) relies on well water. It’s on the ass end of nowhere – they’re not piping in water from Burns or anywhere else.
Why they haven’t shut off the electricity is a mystery to me, though.
Mnemosyne
@jl:
The point is more that once a couple of thousand US troops showed up, the “rebellion” collapsed pretty quickly without much action from either side.
Like I said, I suspect that the Feds are worried about a siege turning into another Ruby Ridge or Waco, but if the authorities keep their heads and are willing to wait it out rather than trying to push the idiots into doing something idiotic, I think waiting it out would probably work. Hopefully the besieged would have the good sense to surrender before it went all Donner Party in there
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@dogwood:
The Sagebrush Rebellion- from which this situation stems, IMO- was a reaction to the environmental regulations placed upon Federal lands beginning in the 1960s (sorry, couldn’t place the publication date of Silent Spring off the top of my head before posting my last). Previously, Federal land management was something argued between mining interests, ranching interests and the Federal government. After the new environmental regulations were passed, the much larger and diverse group of sportsmen joined the fray. All of a sudden mineral rights and grazing rights issues were tied together with issues concerning hunting, fishing, dirt bikes, snowmobiles, etc.. Half the assholes involved here could care less about grazing rights- they just don’t want the Feds telling ’em that they can’t play with their dune buggies in the nesting grounds of an endangered tortoise species.
Redshift
@Davebo:
So in other words, not a disinterested witness. The claims I’ve seen reported that children have arrived seem to be as solid as the claims that there were 150 of the yahoos there.
jl
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Virtually all of it? You have a link or documentation for that? But I agree that a lot of it came to the feds that way.
And seems to me that whatever legitimate issues were raised by the sagebrush rebellion of the 80s has degenerated into con artists and free loaders pissed off because they can’t mooch free stuff and offload their costs to others at their whim.
After reading about the Hammond trials, that seems to be the case here, even if there may be questions about how the feds charged them (with eco-terrorism). They seem to have been running around doing as they pleased on property that was not theirs because they felt like it.
Matt McIrvin
I think Josh Marshall is forgetting something:
Well, no. It doesn’t get a very tough response because it got a very tough response in the early 1990s, and the resulting bloodshed became a rallying point for domestic terrorists who murdered hundreds of people. I’m sure everyone involved in dealing with this situation remembers that.
It’s true that if they were foreigners, or Muslims, or not white, the reaction would have been very different. But when it comes to white Americans it seems we actually have learned from experience that escalating these situations makes martyrs and leads to far more violence.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
If it’s as remote as people are saying, I wonder if the location has its own generator. I have no idea, though.
Davebo
You see pictures of them standing around bonfires to keep warm. Where are they getting wood?
Look at the place on Google earth. There’s more firewood in Death Valley than around that place.
Carolus
Soooo..what’s the endgame?
They’re pretty much contained and will likely pack up and declare victory. But what happens next? Do we let them shuffle back to Nevada after breaking several dozen laws and incurring a great deal of cost to the local, state and federal government? This alternative seems to invite more and bigger anti-government efforts.
buford puser
@Mnemosyne: Wouldn’t a generator be awful noisy for the birds? It is an awfully remote place to run power lines to though. Disabling a generator should be pretty easy for a sniper a long way away.
jl
@Mnemosyne: I think it is a difficult situation to handle, and probably best to wait for some provocation before starting a massive response.
I’m not with those accusing feds of sympathy or fecklessness. I do wonder how so many of the Bundy gang are still walking around free and not facing some kind of charges after their outrageous actions. And I think after this is wound down, peacefully I hope, I sure do want these people to face charges with lot of pics in the papers.
Iowa Old Lady
I saw a Carly Fiorina bumper sticker when I was out buying new flannel sheets. I’m reeling.
Mnemosyne
@Matt McIrvin:
I still think the issue with Ruby Ridge and Waco was that law enforcement got impatient and decided to try and hurry things along, which led to disaster. I’m not sure we’ve ever truly tried waiting out a group like this.
Davebo
@Redshift: Certainly not.
But what motivation would she have to lie about that?
JPL
@jl: The eco-terrorism charge was because of the second fire. My understanding is that firefighters were already battling a wildfire when the Hammonds set another near them. Their lives were endangered. Maybe they should have been charged with attempted murder, since they knew the firefighters were there.
Soylent Green
I’m sure the thinking is that these guys are heavily armed, so care is being taken in deciding just what the response of federal law enforcement should be, so as not to put people at undue risk. One of the photos from the site shows one of the crazies behind a rifle up in the refuge watch tower. Much as we enjoy fantasizing a shock and awe military campaign led by Bruce Willis, the actual response will be far more measured.
Davebo
@Mnemosyne: Impatient? In Waco?
The siege in Waco lasted from February 28th to April 19th.
How much longer should they have “waited them out”? 2 months? 6?
Mnemosyne
@jl:
I think the Feds are trying really, really hard not to get into an armed standoff, and I don’t blame them one bit. I’m just wondering if other resources can be brought to bear to encourage the protesters to leave already.
jl
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again): IIRC from my reading about the depression era CCC, that in the absence of environmental regulations, lots of similar land eventually went to complete waste and was not even useful to freeloading con artists like Bundy or vandals like the Hammonds. Then of course the local right thinking people wanted the CCC work done, but loathed and discriminated against the people doing it.
So, I suppose we have to let that process play out all over the West again, or armed idiots will be occupying visitor centers, bathrooms and equipment sheds all over the boondocks.
jl
@JPL: @Mnemosyne: When this winds down, I hope peacefully and boringly, I just want everyone who committed crimes since the Bundy Ranch BS to get charged and get their day in court, with lots of pics in the news, and sad stories showing what losers they are.
Davebo
@JPL: What eco-terrorism charge?
According to the DOJ they were convicted of using fire to destroy federal property.
kc
@Carolus:
Read some of the news stories. The Bundy moochers say they plan to stay there and “assist” loggers, ranchers, etc in using the property. They also hope their supporters will take over other federally owned lands for the same purpose.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: The feds have been waiting out Bundy père for damn near two years now. It doesn’t seem to be working. I don’t know what the answer is, but these assholes at least appear to achieved their goals since the feds folded up their tents and went home after the moocher ranch standoff.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Mike in NC: I wonder if Trump’s helicopter will collide with Cruz’s plane in a race to be first there. This cause ain’t gonna video-fellate itself!
Adam L Silverman
@kc: It helps. My guess is he won’t get a pass, but it is going to be a very calculated decision on when to take him into custody.
Soylent Green
@buford puser:
It’s not a zoo. It’s a refuge for migrating waterfowl, most or all of which are long gone, and on their way to south of the U.S. border.
kc
@Betty Cracker:
And now they’re branching out.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: I just posted the National Guard fact sheet that explains Title 10 versus Title 32 authorities and what they mean. Give it a looksee.
kc
According to a WaPo story, this thing was apparently planned, at least in part, on Facebook. Right out in the open. By the Bundys.
I guess the feds were too busy monitoring #BlackLivesMatter tweets to pay attention.
? Martin
@Keith G:
These two persons are not omnipowerful. Even if they individually do not buy into the philosophy, they lead up large organizations that are still biased in the ‘only if you are white’ direction. Perhaps less than before, but biased all the same. They are also representative of an electorate that is biased in that way, and they cannot operate completely orthogonal to other jurisdictions (state and local) that have that bias.
They more than anyone else know that the impulsive reaction by conservatives to everything they do will be to declare hostile intent. Essentially they need to gently move this overton window against a large electorate that doesn’t see the need to move it. The media have their own bias in this as well – and in the past they have avoided these stories for the same reason that they know coming out against these actions will be received somewhat negatively overall (they at least need to get a feel for where the public is) but it is not a stretch to view this event as part of the much broader fabric of white angst that Trump in particular is tapping into and that will be tempting for the media to explore.
Big corporations and government cannot be steered as agilely as you are suggesting (there are some exceptions such as founders of companies that can steer more quickly than others). You can only deliver reforms as quickly as those being reformed can absorb them. Thankfully we have people that are steering us in the right direction. But when Obama says that he needs the citizenry to push him, this is what he means – he needs us to tell him how fast we should go. That’s where gun control is right now. That’s where wages are right now. That’s where race and policing issues are right now.
Mike in NC
@jl: Remember, Rubio is the kind of weasel who belongs to both a Catholic Church (for his kids) and an Evangelical Protestant one (to easier pander to the religious right whose votes he craves).
ThresherK (GPad)
By the way, when this is all over (peacefully, prisonfully, ridicule-fully) I want an Anna Pigeon novel from the kickass sweetheart of the NPS, Nevada Barr.
jl
@ThresherK (GPad): Cruz has sense enough to stay away from it, He called for the loons to give it up peacefully.
@Davebo: AS wrote that an eco-terrorism charge was involved somewhere along the line. Is that wrong?
And for impatient commenters, the feds waited out the Native American occupation of Alcatraz almost two years. I think that was better than unnecessary violence.
A lot of this is optics, sadly, and if a lot of armed fools start to pull stuff, it will important for the feds not to be seen by white bigots as provoking it. That is disgusting to me in a way, but I think that is the social and political reality of it. If armed fools want to break the law after the feds show commons sense, it is on the armed fools’ heads, not the feds.
Adam L Silverman
@Bobby Thomson: I’m not happy about it and I don’t think it is good in the long term.
Adam L Silverman
@kc: It apparently is not accurate.
buford puser
Many have mentioned the difficulties LEOs will face in operating in the forbidding high desert terrain. How fortunate that many are likely to be veterans of combat in Afghanistan, where conditions are similar. I wonder how many of the terrorists have any background in anything except shooting their mouths off?
Adam L Silverman
@Punchy: The Bundy Ranch brought in some really unstable folks. Like the couple that killed the cops a couple weeks later. I think the locals are worried that having all the kids in two or three school buildings would provide easy targets for anyone that answered the call, but was too unstable to hold it together out at the wildlife refuge.
JPL
@Davebo: I saw it on a libertarian site earlier and when I tried to find another source, I couldn’t. The closest that I came to it was that the charge was meant for eco-terrorists, but that is different, which I admit. .
Adam L Silverman
@Sherparick: I’m tracking and agree completely. They, of course, don’t see it that way and would deny it if you explained it to them. As for the law you’ve cited: I’m not a lawyer, but on the face of it, they’ve violated all of it.
Davebo
@jl: They were charged and convicted of arson. The appeals court rejected claims by the ranchers’ defense attorney that the federal arson statute was intended to punish terrorism, rather than burning to remove invasive species or improve rangeland.
Judge Aiken did compare the situation to “eco-terrorism” cases but there were never any terror related charges in the case. Just good old fashioned arson with a twist as it occurred on federal land.
I point it out just because there’s been a lot of disinformation coming from the right making the same inaccurate claim.
buford puser
I think “Cowliphate” wins the internets for today for whoever thought of it
Peale
@efgoldman: Heck, at this point, I’d even settle for “make it somewhat difficult for people to bring children and slim jims to them and maybe make them somewhat bored and lonely” if blockading them is too much. That would seem like progress.
Davebo
@efgoldman: To the lunatic rightwing fringe these guys are going to be martyrs whether they come out in body bags or are shipped off to the federal pen.
Adam L Silverman
@Amanda in the South Bay: Its doable under Title 32, but it creates problems. Title 32 provides a state level exemption to the Posse Comitatus Act, thereby allowing uniformed personnel – a state’s National Guard – to be activated and mobilized to respond to state level emergencies. In order for this to work the governor would have to declare a state of emergency, and I’m not sure it qualifies. Someone who knows Oregon statutes would have to weigh in.
There is also an optics/impressions problem. These folks already believe the government is coming for them and think that they may have to take on the military. Activating and mobilizing the Oregon National Guard and sending them to establish a perimeter in uniform with issued weaponry is just going to feed the paranoia. There are other ways to respond at this point that probably produce more bang for the buck.
Davebo
@efgoldman:
I did read. As of yesterday afternoon CNN and Fox working together could have blocked the access road into the facility with their freaking vans while the MSNBC guys look for a way to kill the power.
jl
@Davebo: Thanks very much for the info.
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: There was no terrorism charge, eco or otherwise. What happened is that the 1996 Anti-terrorism and Effective Federal Death Penalty Act including a number of non-terrorism related and non-death penalty related Federal crimes and proscribed penalties in it. It was really an omnibus Federal crime bill. The updated penalties for setting a fire/arson on Federal lands are part of the act. That’s what they were charged with and convicted of, not terrorism, not eco-terrorism, not anything to do with terrorism.
kc
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks, I hope not.
gene108
@Cacti:
Piss them off or make martyrs out of them and it’s OKC II…
There are not good solutions here, as a lot of powerful people – gun lobby groups, Republicans etc. – work to cover up for these loons and make it easier for them to stock pile weapons.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
Since Bundy was running around doing press conferences and interviews, it didn’t seem to be much of a siege. The whole point of a siege is to prevent people from entering and leaving the area.
BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman: That won’t work, from the pics of their “storeroom”, they brought beer.
Peale
@gene108: I suppose if they get too out of line, we could just co-opt them into an instrument of foreign policy like they do in the Gulf States. Maybe we could solve the problem by convincing them to go martyr themselves in the Canadian Rockies.
Davebo
All I’m saying folks is that the seemingly nonexistent LEO presence on site has nothing to do with logistics.
My late wife could have gotten most if not all of a 1000HP drilling rig on site by now (if someone were willing to pay the freight!) shipping it from Texas.
But again, perhaps they have a plan.
? Martin
@efgoldman:
Tactics is beside the point.
This is asymmetrical politics. If the feds move in reasonably and the Bundy folks decide to start shooting, it will invariably energize their movement to a large degree. The reality on the ground will not matter – you have a sizable resentful white population in this country that has been fed paranoia from Fox News on down. You know that someone like Trump or Cruz or whoever will see the opportunity to capitalize on it in a presidential primary season rather than let it fizzle out.
Put short, there’s almost no political upside for the government here, and a lot of political downside risk. Does the federal government need to win points with voters like us for putting down an uprising of idiots that can’t even be bothered to bring a weeks food to an event they proclaim will take months? Or can they just seal them off, make sure they aren’t risking anyone else’s safety and wait for them to grow tired of playing GI Joe in the snow?
I suspect that these guys are nothing different from the Westboro folks. They’re trolls that need a confrontation to advance their political goals so to them a defeat is to be denied that confrontation. A victory for them is to have a few militia volunteers shot by ‘jackbooted federal thugs’. We’ve been down this road before.
Seanly
@raven:
The real goal (maybe not originally, but now) of the Sagebrush Rebellion sentiment is that the land is given to the state or even local level and winds up being privately owned. Neither of those entities can raise enough revenue through usage or access fees (if at all) to properly care for the land. The land or resources upon the land (such as timber or minerals) are sold off to meet those obligations or even due to state constitutional requirements.
Of course, the welfare cowboys & yokel haram types think they’ll get to graze/strip mine/timber for even fewer cents on the dollar of value. In reality, corporate interests would gobble up the most easily accessed. The bozos who get to graze for 10% of market value and use the land for hunting & sports use will be cut out despite their fever dreams of federal-less domination.
I encourage people to read the Portland Audubon’s statement on the takeover. The Malhuer area is very desolate – a unique high desert that did have wetlands for birds. Previous grazing damaged the delicate ecosystem and within the last few years, the feds/state & stakeholders have been working to restore the ecosystem. That does mean less grazing, but will ultimately lead to more tourism, hunting and other uses. The high desert isn’t very hospitable to farming/grazing without irrigation.
I suspect that much as the Bundy’s NV ranching was said to probably not be profitable without fraudulent use of federal grazing areas, the ranchers in OR are ultimately not profitable. No amount of bitching, moaning, and illegal squatting in federal buildings will change the future. Just like the timber industry couldn’t be sustained without over-logging the federal lands after using up the available private lands, these western ranchers need to face the music and get over their sense of entitlement.
tamiasmin
It’s disruptive and attention-grabbing, of course, but what else do these people think they will accomplish? Do they suppose that because a group of them are sitting heavily armed in a remote building in eastern Oregon, the federal government is going to agree that it is illegitimate and cede vast tracts of Western land to them? If that works, I might occupy an outhouse somewhere and ask for a pony.
Carolus
@gene108:
I can’t comprehend this thinking. Essentially, we should be afraid to move against white guys breaking the law with guns ’cause they might get pissed. We’re just enabling more of this nonsense.
ThresherK
@jl: Cruz has enough sense to stay away?
Wonders never cease.
Hungry Joe
I’d kind of like to see the several employees of the refuge just show up for work tomorrow — walk in the building, tell these guys they’re trespassing, and threaten to call the police if they don’t leave. “Oh, and take your trash with you, if you don’t mind. Thanks.” Then, if they don’t leave, cops drive up and calmly arrest them. In short, treat them like small-time criminals, which — so far — they are.
It’s fanciful, I know, because they’ve threatened violence. And it’s easy to fantasize since I wouldn’t be the one doing the just-walking-in. But still, I wonder if such a low-, low-key response wouldn’t be best … at least until (unless) things escalate.
Short of that, seal ’em in and wait, because baby, it’s cold outside.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Here’s my uninformed perspective — they’re paranoid about something that to my knowledge has never actually happened. All of the previous situations like this were handled by law enforcement.
Sometimes the best way to cure a phobia is to immerse the person who has the problem into the situation they fear so they can see it’s not as bad as they thought. I’m worried that we’ve let the militia folks build the idea of a National Guard response up in their heads to the point where we can’t use that tool at all. I’d rather use that tool and let them see it’s not the big scary monster under the bed that they’ve built it up as.
Bobby Thomson
@jl: if only the
feckless FedsTsar knew about the scofflaws roaming free.Southern Beale
When you’ve lost Alex Jones:
So basically he’s pissed about the optics of this thing. He thinks it looks bad for white people with AR-15s and other heavy arms to be “protesting” by taking over a government building by armed force.
He’s right. It does look bad. But you know, that’s the whole basis of the gun loons’ Second Amendment fetish? To take on “gummint tyranny”?
Bobby Thomson
@Carolus: this.
jl
@Southern Beale: It might be a hopeful sign that the likes of Jones, Cruz and the Oath Keepers are disassociating themselves. They sense bozos, losers and massive PR fail from this bunch.
buford puser
I say Bataclan the Cowliban!
kc
@Keith G:
White House spokesman calls seizure of federal property “a local law enforcement matter.”
JPL
All the fed needs to do is wait them out. Ask the media not to give them a forum and once the attention goes away, they will get bored. When they leave, arrest them, at that point. imo
@Adam L Silverman: I tried to update at 150. Thanks…
gene108
@Mnemosyne:
The problem with Ruby Ridge is Randy Weaver broke the law by selling illegally modified guns to white supremacists, was apprehended and then convicted.
He was supposed to report to court for sentencing, but when he did not show the US Marshals came to collect him. He resisted arrest and forced an armed stand-off with authorities.
Randy Weaver brought the calamity upon his family.
Whatever the Feds might have screwed up was screwed up because of Weaver’s criminality that forced the situation.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Also, to be clear, what I’m advocating for is to use National Guard troops to surround the place and wait them out since there are more of them available than there are local law enforcement. Trying to storm it or otherwise hurry the situation along would be a very, very, VERY bad idea.
Bobby Thomson
@efgoldman: and if they have a well and a privy and poach?
Peale
@kc:
Since the organizers came from all over the country, at what point aren’t they “local.” Or does “local” just mean “people who aren’t from Washington or New York so therefore they are interchangeable.”
Peale
@gene108: But but but, there were children and he didn’t think he did anything wrong even after he was convicted. That has to count for something.
Davebo
@efgoldman:
That’s a nice straw man you’ve constructed.
There’s a middle ground between pretending nothing has happened and launching Hellfires.
But sure, wait them out, then let them drive off into the sunset when they get bored. It’s not like we haven’t done that with these guys before.
Again, all I’m saying is secure the freaking facility already and take some minor steps to make them uncomfortable like turning off the power and water.
As of now there’s no indication that has happened.
dogwood
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again):
You are absolutely right in your analysis of the more contemporary iteration of hostility to federal land management. Frank Church might well have lost his Senate seat anyway in the Reagan revolution, but the establishment of the FC Federal Wilderness area caused a groundswell of protest from the crowd whose outdoor recreation involves lots of machines. Ironically if Church hadn’t been such a powerful Senator, that wilderness area would have been much larger. My only point was that these struggles over land and access to water are in many ways the story of the West and have been going on forever.
kc
@JPL:
That didn’t really work out at the Bundy Ranch, did it?
Bobby Thomson
@efgoldman: I think you are envisioning a more vigorous response then anyone has planned.
ETA: actually I’m not sure what you are saying, since you just acknowledged no one is going near the building.
Davebo
Can we just dispense with the Ruby Ridge/Waco references here?
Simple simple concept. When the Feds show up at your door to serve either a search or arrest warrant don’t shoot at them.
If you do, you’re likely to die. If you have women and children on the premises they are likely to die. If you shoot and actually kill one or more federal agents it’s pretty much guaranteed you’re going to die.
These guys on Oregon don’t want to die. You can see that in every statement they make. It’s just that past experience has taught them that because of these idiotic Ruby Ridge/Waco comparisons they feel they can do just about anything they want and not worry about their own mortality.
And who can blame them. It’s what we taught them.
Davebo
@efgoldman: Perhaps it is you that aren’t reading. Or ignoring what I’ve written on this thread over and over again.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@gene108:
Nope.
Weaver never showed up for his court date on the original charges, and quite a bit of the blame for that goes to the court and Weaver’s court-appointed defense attorney, who kept dicking with (and in the defense attorney’s case, misstating by a month) Weaver’s first court date.
Weaver’s trial on all charges occurred after the siege. He was found not guilty for selling the shotgun and every other charge except for missing the first court date and violating the conditions of his bail.
bemused
Didn’t the “patriots” hanging out at the Bundy Ranch end up bickering about who’s the boss of this here freedom posse? It shouldn’t take long for them to start arguing especially if they don’t get their snacks and energy drinks they supposedly requested on FB.
Davebo
@JPL: While I tend to agree with you there’s something you’ve missed.
What makes you think that if they all loaded up in their vehicles and left when LEO’s confronted them they would just hold out their hands to have the cuffs put on?
gene108
@Carolus:
Ever since the 1970’s and 1980’s there have been militant white supremacist groups throughout this country. The Feds try to bust them up and have had success.
But occasionally you get Tim McVeigh or the guy, who set out a bomb during an MLK day parade, a couple of years back, which thankfully was noticed and defused before it could blow up.
I really do not know what to do.
There’s a lot of cover provided to these nutjobs by the powers that be by couching their ability to become bigger threats, as they amass more and more guns, as just plain old Second Amendment rights that are already overly restrictive.
Look at the support Cliven Bundy initially got from Fox News, et. al. on the right-wing establishment. There are powerful people, who are more than willing to give cover to the worst of the worst.
Look at how the “logic” of these loons has filtered into the less-crazy discourse on the Right, with regards to opposing “Federal tyranny” and arming up to defend against a tyrannical government, unaccountable to the people, etc.
I think it’s a lot more complex than just going in arresting some mooks and calling it a day.
They are not just emboldened by a lack of action. They are emboldened by so much of society, which secretly wants them to succeed in gutting the last 50-100 years of progress for women and minorities.
jl
@Davebo:
” And who can blame them. It’s what we taught them. ”
I think it should end nice peaceful and boring, and make for bathetic and funny reading and pics in the news.
I agree with you that the Bundy Ranch insurrectionists and the brave souls who took over an empty wildlife refuge visitor center, with the foresight to stock up on beer, should be arrested, charged and face trial. I think that the Bundy Ranch loons still running around free is a bad idea.
The Raven
@Betty Cracker: I’ve been watching some of lefty friends in Oregon turn ammosexual over this with interest and alarm. They are also concerned that nothing will be done and that is beginning to look likely: reportedly the paramilitaries were allowed to bring their children to the site.
The locals … they’re conservative, but they’re the “you leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone” sort of conservative. Many of them don’t like the Feds or the Bureau of Land Management, but they also don’t like being invaded by a bunch of armed yahoos.
The context … Harney County is about as remote as a place can be within the continental USA. The country is dry. It averages about ten inches of rain a year. It is called “high desert,” (elevations of 4500 feet are typical) but is actually scrub-land or steppe. You may guess that the locals regard setting range fires with the liveliest horror. It’s a beautiful, poor place: light levels of ranching, farming, and forestry are about all it supports and the median household income is about $31,000 a year.
People of color are observing that these paramilitaries are being treated with kid gloves and are angry about it. There’s a whole problem of understanding … the intermountain West is in the rain shadow of the coastal mountains and it is dry, dry, dry. It can never be settled as thickly as the east with its heavy rains and rivers. City people, people from the east and midwest, mostly don’t get how remote this is; the high lonesome. It’s not like taking over city hall, or a building in a public park in New York; this place is mostly ignored by everyone but the people who live there. And now, a vest-pocket revolution.
Cain
@Davebo: They should just have started to build a federal prison around them then just sentence them.
Heliopause
@BillinGlendaleCA:
So, how about have a mole bring them a couple of cases of Coors Light laced with Bill Cosby’s favorite formula, wait until they all go nighty-night, then grab them.
Carolus
@efgoldman: Both water and power can be shut off without getting close to the federal building. Certainly the power can go down within several minutes of someone taking that decision.
Remember these folks?
I’d certainly be interested in what David Neiwert, who has covered many of these so-called militias, has to say.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@dogwood:
But, with the exception of mining rights, its been an on-again-off-again thing. As someone else pointed out above, no one was bitching about Federal management of the land during the Great Depression- and it was Federal land management that ended the range wars between large and small ranching interests in the late 19th Century.
buford puser
This is like some kind of bizarro-world promo for the new Tarantino pic, huh?
Davebo
@efgoldman: Where above does it say that’s being done?
Are you saying they’ve cut the utilities? Secured the access road? Where above does it say that.
And don’t condescend to me about “what I’ve seen in the movies”. I’ve overseen the loading of Antonov An-225’s, 747 nose loaders and literally hundreds of ground heavy transport vehicles.
Boise has a nice airport and from there to Burns is probably less than 4 hours with no snow covered mountains to cross.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@Heliopause:
I like the sound of “The Trojan Gopher”.
Capt. Seaweed
@JPL: I think the original 5 year minimum requirement in the law was placed there after the Earth Liberation Front burned down all those Forest Service buildings in Oregon and the NW. Hence, an “eco-terrorism” charge. IIRC
gene108
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again):
I stand corrected.
My sympathy level for white supremacists is low.
Calouste
@efgoldman: It’s not “a” building, there are about 20.
Oh, and the complex is pretty close to a small river and a decent sized lake, besides there being a lot of snow at the moment. Unless you want to position snipers to take out everyone who walks around there, these guys will have access to enough water.
Calouste
@Carolus: Do you think a place 35 miles from a community with 2800 people has a power line? And no back up generator?
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@gene108:
No lower than mine, but the fact is that the government- the ATF, the US Marshals, the Federal Court system- really fucked up in that particular mess. This all happened under G.H.W. Bush, and I’ve always had the sneaking suspicion that they allowed the shitty mismanagement that led to Ruby Ridge as an example of how shoddy the Federal government is, all the while keeping that thumb firmly pressed down on the scale.
Calouste
@Davebo:
They’re 35 miles from Burns, which has 2,800 people. There are no utilities.
Heck, I know places less than 20 miles from downtown Seattle where the only utilities are telephone and electricity, and you have a backup generator because you don’t want to do without for days or maybe even weeks if a storm hits.
kc
I did read above & I don’t see any assertions that “that’s being done.” Or links to indicate that it is.
Now you can read above and see where the White House spokesperson today called it a “local enforcement issue.”
bystander
@Betty Cracker: I would hope the Feds had the good sense to file a lien against his property for unpaid taxes. When he comes to realize that his ranch will auctioned off to pay his debts, he and his children will be very upset.
AnotherBruce
@Carolus: Thank you, yes. This kind of thinking creates and encourages monsters.
Carolus
@Calouste: 35 miles from town? We’re not exactly talking across Alaska, are we? I’d suspect this place may have a small generator for use in case of a power outage, so employees could shut down and close up. But given these clowns brought at least one portable generator-I doubt it.
J R in WV
@jl:
If you look at a map of western states that shows various ownerships of the land, it looks like a checkerboard.
I’m pretty sure that the federal government sold/gave away around 50% of the land, in alternating square chunks. In Arizona you see BLM land and Arizona state land in colors, with white space indicating private ownership. Regular spots of federal/state land alternating with private land.
Of course, much of the BLM land is leased to ranchers, who used to run cattle on that land, before the drought cut that business off short.
Along railroads, the government kept 50% of the land, and gave the RR the other half in alternate squares, like a string of square beads. So that policy was used in many sorts of situations. The free land was to encourage the RRs to build expensive track through desolate wilderness that happened to hold valuable resources in random spots.
Of course now any old land is valuable, so the loons want to get another bite at that free land, and they’re willing to steal it from anyone, or everyone.
feebog
All the talk about cutting power and water is nice, but since none of us know jackshite about the facility, it is just talk. This is a pretty remote place, so chances are that the water is well water, and can’t be shut off remotely. Power? That should be simpler to shut off, but may also take some time. And it may be that they have some solar panels, although I have seen no evidence of this in any of the pictures I have seen. One thing is for sure, they are on a septic system of some type. One that may not be able to handle 10 to 15 terrorists crapping Cheetos and Slim Jims on a daily basis. So an overloaded toilet may be what does them in.
jl
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again): I think the problem of managing vast sparsely populated lands has been going on since colonial times, and has been ever present. It is kind of boring economic social history now, and of concern to far fewer people now than before.
The US experimented with unregulated auctioneer capitalism in the early days, and it resulted in what (I think you) described: vast corporate (edit: or, what we now would call corporate) holdings (either ruthlessly exploited into waste or held idle for speculation) and shortages of land for the ordinary people. (who then promptly jumped over the corporate holdings and squatted on Native American, or other countries’ claims, causing additional problems.
I think there have been several cycles of federal approaches to managing these lands, and every one of them has some segment of the population complaining that whatever it is, it is the worst approach possible. Anyway, I think even before the Constitution, under the Articles of Confederation, the national government had legal authority over land. The tyranny started, I think, with some stuff Jefferson wrote on how, legally speaking, the country should justify and organize a system of tenure that produced an orderly transfer of property title from the English Crown to local stalwart yeoman. Amazingly, the US government was the boss of it all.
Maybe these yahoos should pull up stakes from the visitor center and occupy the Jefferson Monument, since he started the land tyranny. They could pick up their needed snacks and more beer on the way.
Davebo
@Calouste: I’m fairly certain that facility with at least 20 structures as well as what seem to be RV parking pads isn’t running just off generators. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a generator there for an emergency or that these militants brought their own.
Start making them burn their fuel. And for the record, electricity and telephone are utilities.
Sorry I’m just frustrated because I’ve seen how this played out before. At some point these yahoos need to face consequences for their actions.
And as to political “optics” get real! (not you of course, but upthread). The people who would get their panties in a wad over forcibly removing these guys are never going to vote Dem anyway.
Davebo
@feebog: You’re right of course about the almost certainty their water comes from a well.
But as anyone who has ever lived on property serviced by a well can tell you, cut the electricity and no more water.
Bill
@jl:
Separatists.
kc
@kc:
Well, this guy says there ARE children there.
Lovely.
Felonius Monk
@jl:
Ammo Bundy and The Shit-Heads for Freedumb?
buford puser
Possibly relevant:
http://kitup.military.com/2016/01/how-to-live-on-mres-for-21-days-lots-of-water-expert-says.html
kc
Still no sign of law enforcement at site of takeover.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@jl:
Yep. There’s a reason there’s relatively very little Federal land in the original thirteen states. What’s there is, mostly , land purchased or donated by private owners and/or state and county governments for the purpose of making a National Park. And a lot of that National Park land is Revolutionary and Civil War battlefields. The further west you go from the original thirteen states, the more Federal land you see.
dogwood
@The Raven:
That’s an excellent and accurate depiction of the area . I’m just not sure the people you are trying to reach are the least bit interested in understand the locale. This is about politics. Im pretty well-traveled, but I’ve lived my entire life in the Inland Northwest. I love this place. The history , the landscape are dear to my heart.
Raven Onthill
A check of Google Maps shows that the refuge HQ is near a lake. No shortage of water.
Still, it is damn cold there and will be for several months.
Davebo
@Raven Onthill:
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t want to try to drink from that lake. Extremely high levels of alkalinities I hope they try!
Bill Arnold
@feebog:
There are aerials at decent resolution – google maps says 2016, dunno if it is telling the truth.
Don’t see any large solar panel arrays. I assume 1 or more generators – can anyone spot them?
jl
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again): Whoever said that a large portion of lands in intermountain region and west (maybe you?) was in private hands and then reverted to the feds was half right. I think a lot of the land between the 100th meridian, and many patches westward until you get to the Rockies, and then some more in the SE WA OR and SW Idaho area, was snatched up in homestead, and timber and stone act. But a lot of that land is not profitable for anything for any private owner who must bear a significant portion of the costs in order to get the revenue.
Anyway, as I said, looks like the Bundy kid has worked up a fantasy history for a national wildlife refuge that was created after two ranching families got tired of bothering with their stakeholds and sold them off to the feds. A BS fantasy to die for, I guess.
Edit: he is either nuts, or maybe working a con, like his old man.
Lurking Canadian
Can’t they import some of those armored cars from Ferguson and just drive up to the place and start firing tear gas shells through the windows? Do we think these terrorists have, and are willing to use, RPGs too?
I am absolutely baffled by the notion that threatening to shoot at the cops should mean nobody will come to serve the arrest warrant. John Gotti’s got to be kicking himself in his cell. “Damn, why didn’t I think of threatening to kill cops? Then they would have just left me alone!”
jl
@Lurking Canadian:
” I am absolutely baffled by the notion that threatening to shoot at the cops should mean nobody will come to serve the arrest warrant. ”
One of our major political parties, the GOP, support this crap,and will make political hay out of it at the slightest opportunity. That is one reason that it is a hopeful sign that the Malheur Visitor Center Freedom Fighters are such losers that everyone who normally does that kind of stunt is distancing themselves from the crime.
But, many here are concerned about the trend of not enforcing the law, or arresting people who pull these stunts. Or, ‘mighty carnsarn’d’, or ‘nearing the galloping fantods’ as Mark Twain or Cooper might put it.
Davebo
These guys are comedy gold!
We’re not asking for money. But you can send money to….
The Facebook comments are encouraging.
Steve from Antioch
@Davebo: @Davebo:
It’s 20 below up there at night, so they aren’t drinking water from that lake unless they brought an auger
Gin & Tonic
@Lurking Canadian: John Gotti’s been dead nearly 15 years, so I doubt he’s kicking himself about much of anything.
Gin & Tonic
@Bill Arnold: Guaranteed there is utility-provided power there. Farms/ranches on either side are running fairly extensive irrigation operations (see the green circles on Google Earth view.) That requires utility power.
jl
@Davebo: Looks like they want their freedom snacks delivered via United State Postal Service, from what I can tell. I guess FedEx and UPS fees are steep out there.
More FreedomFail from those clowns.
Steve from Antioch
@Gin & Tonic: it’s been a couple of years since I went bird hunting up there, but my recall is that the visitor center was unremarkable, that is it had power, water etc.
Didn’t seem that primitive or remote to me, there’s a paved road to it.
dogwood
@Davebo:
Reading those Facebook comments made my day. Thanks for the link.
Seanly
Best. Bizarro. Performance. Art. Evah.
Gin & Tonic
@Steve from Antioch: It turns out the Google Street View car has driven that road. It has utility poles all the way.
nutella
@jl:
How about outside agitators? Or armed criminal gang? Like the Crips and the Bloods but with cowboy hats.
nutella
@Davebo:
The sympathizer is named Peltier? Same as Leonard Peltier?
Bill_D
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Most current federal land in the West is utterly incapable of being homesteaded, to the point where the pioneers didn’t even try. You can’t plow up 160 acres of hilly sagebrush or timber in a place with virtually no soil and an agricultural growing season measured in weeks and make a living for even one year, let alone for the five years required to obtain title to the land.
People did homestead on the Great Plains east of the Rockies, farther west in river valleys with decent floodplain soils that could be irrigated, or in scattered wet meadows in otherwise arid regions. The last of these categories commonly became the base properties for ranchers who made a living off grazing huge areas of surrounding federal lands, a practice which generally continues today.
The national forests and national parks in the West were largely set aside from existing federal lands. Acquisition of private inholdings in the parks long happened through private philanthropy. The federal government didn’t have authority or funding for widespread purchases until the establishment of the Land and Water Conservation Fund in 1964, and even those purchase have only amounted to a very small percentage of all federal land. There was an exception on the Great Plains during and after the Dust Bowl under New Deal programs; those properties are today’s “national grasslands” but again are only a small part of the landscape.
Total homesteaded area (title passed to private owners) was about 10% of the U.S. according to Wikipedia, but total federal land today amounts to about 30% of the land in the country, so what you are saying is mathematically impossible..