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Hot air and ill-informed banter

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A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.

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The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

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Reader Interactions

180Comments

  2. 2.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Thank you very much for putting up a Town Hall thread. I’m really torn tonight because a friend of mine, who teaches voice and is herself an operatic soprano, is doing a program for NYC and streaming it — so I’m going there until shortly before 8:00 pm, then leaving music for my President. I figure anything I miss tonight I can always pull up and see tomorrow, right? Ain’t technology wonderful??

  3. 3.

    Elizabelle

    A *thwack* at the gun industry and their enablers, from the Obama op ed:

    The gun industry also needs to do its part. And that starts with manufacturers.

    As Americans, we hold consumer goods to high standards to keep our families and communities safe. Cars have to meet safety and emissions requirements. Food has to be clean and safe. We will not end the cycle of gun violence until we demand that the gun industry take simple actions to make its products safer as well. If a child can’t open a bottle of aspirin, we should also make sure she can’t pull the trigger of a gun.

    Yet today, the gun industry is almost entirely unaccountable. Thanks to the gun lobby’s decades of efforts, Congress has blocked our consumer products safety experts from being able to require that firearms have even the most basic safety measures. They’ve made it harder for the government’s public health experts to conduct research on gun violence. They’ve guaranteed that manufacturers enjoy virtual immunity from lawsuits, which means that they can sell lethal products and rarely face consequences. As parents, we wouldn’t put up with this if we were talking about faulty car seats. Why should we tolerate it for products — guns — that kill so many children each year?

    At a time when manufacturers are enjoying soaring profits, they should invest in research to make guns smarter and safer, like developing microstamping for ammunition, which can help trace bullets found at crime scenes to specific guns. And like all industries, gun manufacturers owe it to their customers to be better corporate citizens by selling weapons only to responsible actors.

  5. 5.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    I wish I didn’t feel like the President was picking a beef with an enemy who had all the firepower on his side. In both senses. I hope for the best but there’s no more entrenched and stubborn constituency in this country than gun owners.

    BTW I made it back from Mexico to Detroit. First Class is nice. I’m tired.

  9. 9.

    Schlemazel

    @mclaren:
    Makes me wish he did get the nod! I’m sure even the lowest information voter will get the message to see our dumbest President standing full-square with his dumber brother.

  10. 10.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @beltane:

    George was always the popular one in that family.

    The classic problem of incompetents having great confidence in themselves because they’re too ignorant to know what competence looks like.
    But put him in a room with Trump and I might pay to watch.

  19. 19.

    Anya

    I am little bit nervous. On the one hand POTUS can handle any situation, on the other hand, CNN.

  22. 22.

    mclaren

    Another interesting example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect over at Five Thirty Eight: Trump supporters appear to be misinformed, not uninformed.

    In 2000, James Kuklinski and other political scientists at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign established an important distinction: American citizens with incorrect information can be divided into two groups, the misinformed and the uninformed. The difference between the two is stark. Uninformed citizens don’t have any information at all, while those who are misinformed have information that conflicts with the best evidence and expert opinion. As Kuklinski and his colleagues established, in the U.S., the most misinformed citizens tend to be the most confident in their views and are also the strongest partisans. These folks fill the gaps in their knowledge base by using their existing belief systems. Once these inferences are stored into memory, they become “indistinguishable from hard data,” Kuklinski and his colleagues found.

  23. 23.

    beltane

    I’m reading the Guardian’s liveblog of the Trump rally in Burlington, VT. It is just surreal, with 20,000 people-mostly anti-Trump hippies- showing up at a 1,200 seat venue, while the Trump supporters are shouting at each other because they’re not sure whose there to cheer Trump or to heckle him.

  25. 25.

    lamh36

    Sarah Clements ‏@sfclem 4m4 minutes ago
    “There’s a reason the NRA isn’t here. They’re down the street. You think they’d welcome a chance to debate on this issue.” #GunsInAmerica

  28. 28.

    lamh36

    That Kyle woman, I don’t care who her husband was, is a plant, with a big name to get headlines. the NRA isn’t there, but you can bet they have their plants!

  29. 29.

    TaMara (BHF)

    This has probably been mentioned in another thread -so forgive me if it’s old news, but I just head the The Trump gave out 20,000 tickets to a venue that only holds 1,400 and said, only those who support me will be allowed in. You take care of me, I’ll take care of you. According to the news, he said he wasn’t interested in independents or undecided.

    So, let’s break this down. People are standing in line to see him, possibly 20K potential voters, and he wants to piss off all but the “true followers” and leave them standing out in the cold with tickets given them by the campaign. This is an election strategy?

    ETA: @beltane: Oh, that i even. Thanks for the update.

  30. 30.

    Mnemosyne

    @Elizabelle:

    Sadly, as Adam has been pointing out, most gun owners don’t *want* a safer product and actively punish gun companies that try to make safety features available. This is why gun deaths and automobile deaths are running neck-and-neck. In some states, the number of gun deaths has already outstripped the number of auto fatalities.

  31. 31.

    beltane

    @raven: My college freshman son and about a dozen of his friends are there . I hope I don’t get a bail-me-out phone call tonight.

  33. 33.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    Is she the wife of the “American Sniper” guy? If so, it seems weird to be strongly in favor of more access to guns after a crazy guy shot your husband in the head at the gun range.

  34. 34.

    lamh36

    @Mnemosyne: Yes she’s his wife.

    As I said…NRA doesn’t need to be there, but they can send the plants in their place with big names that will get headlines.

    Interesting first two question from pro-gun advocate white women “victims” …but maybe I’m too sensitive…but I put nothing past CNN

    ETA: The second woman was assaulted, and I def feel for her, but that still doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have to pass a background check to get a gun either

  35. 35.

    lamh36

    @sfclem 2m2 minutes ago
    It’s more likely that you will be a victim from the gun you bought for protection than that you’ll use it for protection. #GunsInAmerica

  36. 36.

    raven

    @beltane: It doesn’t appear to be like that. Trump is running his mouth and when someone protests they throw them out. There are lots of people across the street and when the ejectees come out that get big cheers.

  37. 37.

    Anya

    @Mnemosyne: I was thinking the same way. Her husband was killed by someone with mental health issues with a gun. You would think she’ll be sympathetic to gun victims instead of her little spiel of “guns don’t kill, people kill”

  39. 39.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mnemosyne: I’m not sure its a case of not wanting a safer product. From what I’ve read the concern is that the commonly recommended or suggested safety improvements actually increase the danger. This is usually put forward as the proposed tech doesn’t work. Now I have no real way to parse this if/when the tech finally does work.

    I can tell you that the first question that one should ask, if considering purchasing a firearm, is that if you aim it do you think you’re able to pull that trigger and destroy/kill what you’re aiming at. The second consideration should be, if in a self defense situation, if you draw and aim it, you had damn well better be able to pull that trigger or you are putting yourself and others at risk.

    Where I’m going with this is, and I can’t prove it, I think that some of the objections to proposed technological safety enhancements is that they would interfere with that ability to pull the trigger if the gun is brought to bear. The concern seems to be that if the biometric chip malfunctions or the finger print scanner doesn’t work or you can’t even get the key turned lock off the trigger, then you’re vulnerable.

    There are others, and this I can prove, who’s opposition is simply that they’re 2nd Amendment maximalists/absolutists and anything required is an infringement. So you’ve got more than one dynamic going on here.

    This is my take from following this stuff. So take it for what its worth.

  40. 40.

    raven

    Victim’s father: Obama’s gun actions won’t make a dent

    The past 15 mass shooters all passed their background checks.

    Closing private sales loopholes and forcing gun sellers to be licensed and conduct background checks ignores the disturbing fact that the vast majority of mass shooters pass their background checks and are legal gun owners. The macabre list is quite long and includes recent as well as decade-old mass shootings. Hiring more FBI agents to process background checks will not solve the problem.

  41. 41.

    lamh36

    @CNNPolitics 1m1 minute ago
    Rape survivor: Carrying a firearm “seems like my basic responsibility as a parent” http://cnn.it/townhall http://cnn.it/1PRxRGD

    I’m sorry, but having a gun, may not have prevented her from being assaulted. I mean I get she’s a victim, but it’s obviously used to plant these types of pro-gun misinformation behind a white face…just don’t know if it’s on CNN or NRA..

  43. 43.

    lamh36

    @samsteinhp 2m2 minutes ago
    The sheriff CNN just let ask Obama a question once threatened his Mexican ex-lover with deportation

  44. 44.

    lamh36

    @CNNPolitics 1m1 minute ago
    Rape survivor: Carrying a firearm “seems like my basic responsibility as a parent”

    I’m sorry, but having a gun, may not have prevented her from being assaulted. I mean I get she’s a victim, but it’s obviously used to plant these types of pro-gun misinformation behind a white face…just don’t know if it’s on CNN or NRA..

  45. 45.

    Adam L Silverman

    @lamh36: The real tragedy with Chris Kyle’s death was that he made a basic safety error. He had already determined that the Marine veteran that he and his partner were trying to work with that day was not safe around guns. Instead of rerouting away from the range to where they could move this guy away from the guns and get him to where he could get immediate help, they continued in two vehicles to the range. Kyle in one with the Marine veteran and his partner in the other. There, Kyle and his partner were in the process of formulating a plan of how to deal with the at risk Marine veteran when the latter went and got a gun and shot Kyle and his partner. I’m not a big fan of victim blaming, but from what I’ve read of the murder, it was not just tragic, it was tragic because it was preventable.

  47. 47.

    SiubhanDuinne

    “If it doesn’t infringe on your rights — why wouldn’t we want to do this?”

  49. 49.

    lamh36

    @Adam L Silverman: yet her opening statement was

    @Gokzarah
    ‘We can not out law murder because the people who are murdering are breaking laws.’- Taya Kyle #GunsInAmerica
    7:36 PM – 7 Jan 2016

    Ah…yeah, except we do…people may not all be convicted, but we actually to out “law” murder…

  51. 51.

    Anya

    @raven: I sometimes wonder if some of these people believe these things or they just say it because it’s a profitable niche market

  52. 52.

    Adam L Silverman

    @lamh36: I’m not disagreeing with your point. The issue that she’s trying to make, whether her point is a good one or not, is that the law is itself not a deterrent.

  53. 53.

    GregB

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I am also not a fan of finding fault with those killed by a murderer but I also think that the guns all the the time mindset has actually corroded some folks ability to use reason when it comes to safety and prudence.

    Babeau is the man that came out as gay after he had some sort of a dispute with his immigrant lover.

  55. 55.

    Mike J

    Kell’s son, 17-year-old Burlington High School student Phineas Totten, also had a ticket to the event and arrived sporting a Donald Trump campaign button. When the Trump staff asked about his loyalty, Kell recounted, “He said, ‘Look at my button.’”

    Totten was allowed inside.

    BFP

  56. 56.

    Adam L Silverman

    @GregB: It is easy for me to point out the errors after the fact when I’ve read the reports on what happened that day. I have no way of knowing if Kyle or his partner were able to see all the warning signs at the time the events happened.

  57. 57.

    lamh36

    Obama: “I visited Newtown two days after what happened. It was the only time I’ve ever seen Secret Service cry.” #GunsInAmerica
    More

  59. 59.

    JPL

    @Adam L Silverman: Kyle thought that shooting on a gun range was a bonding experience. I hate to say it but so did Adam Lanza’s mother. She is viewed as a villain and everyone questions her judgment. Guess what, I question Kyle’s judgment too.

  61. 61.

    lamh36

    This townhall reminds me of when Obama went into the Republican retreat and calmly tore them a new one.

    Even Anderson Cooper and his damn interruptions and the various NRA plants (sincere or otherwise) have yet to rattle him

  62. 62.

    Mnemosyne

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I honestly don’t understand what point people think they’re making when they say that. If laws automatically deterred crime, there would be no crime. If the complaint is that laws don’t deter crime, then why not repeal all laws and let everyone fend for themselves?

  63. 63.

    Adam L Silverman

    @JPL: I have a friend and former colleague, he’s a now retired Marine colonel, who runs an oufitters program for veterans as a type of therapy. They do both hunting and fishing. I know that these programs, for the right veterans, can be very beneficial. I can’t speak to what Kyle was doing or whether it was effective.

  64. 64.

    lamh36

    Dude reaction on twitter when I said NRA may not be there, but they made sure to have plants…

    @Fireman1173
    @psddluva4evah this was by invitation only. Those there were selected.

    Bish please
    right…because just cause they is an “invitation only” listing…operatives can’t make it through…okay then

  66. 66.

    Adam L Silverman

    @lamh36: I love that video! Mike Pence looked like he’d been hit with tranquilizers. I especially liked “this isn’t a plan, I’ve read it, its 14 bullet points.” Pence stares off into the middle distance…

  67. 67.

    lamh36

    So to keep track…that’s 4 pro-gun questions, 2 gun control advocate questions…

    Umm hmmm…I see you CNN…(commence shade throwing from me)

    @lawalazu 1m1 minute ago Ferry Pass, FL
    So far Sheriff, Kyle’s wife, Gun seller, woman raped, called on–Pro Guns + Anderon

    Father Phleger, Ms. Pendelton — both from Chicago.

  68. 68.

    JPL

    @Adam L Silverman: Adam Lanza’s mother was raised in New Hampshire and fishing and hunting is common. It was the same type of bonding experience. I’m not sure either one should be viewed as a hero. Weapons need to be kept away from the mentally ill. Maybe that means more education.

  69. 69.

    raven

    @lamh36: I don’t get your point. The whole idea was to get people on both sides of the issue. Just because the NRA declined doesn’t mean that people who ascribe to their point of view were not invited. That was the whole point.

  70. 70.

    the Conster

    Gun nuts are irrational morons. PBO has the most patience of any human being on this planet.

  71. 71.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mnemosyne: I’ve seen that argument made.

    More seriously, I think, from what I’ve read and seen, that the argument’s logic is supposed to flow from: 1) we can’t stop everyone who is going to do something bad/stupid/evil. 2) The law isn’t a deterrent it is an after the fact punishment. It is, essentially retroactive. 3) Given that the majority of Americans, including the firearms owners, are law abiding and aren’t going to commit murder, why punish everyone because of a few?

    I’m not sure that’s a very convincing logic stream unless you’ve accepted the maximalist position on the 2nd Amendment.

  72. 72.

    Eolirin

    This all rather pointless. It’s pretty clear there’s absolutely no way to strike some sort of compromise position that does a damn thing to limit unnecessary gun deaths. Too many of the mass shootings are perpetrated by people with no record of violence up until the moment they flip out. And you have a similar problem with suicides which make up a large portion of gun deaths. There’s just no way to square the 2nd Amendment with the sorts of changes necessary to make any significant reduction in deaths.

    If we want to do anything about this we need to figure out how to get from where we are to a place where gun ownership is a heavily restricted privilege and not a right, and I honestly have no idea how you do that in less than a generation or two given the electorate we have.

    Obama isn’t wrong to try to do what he can. And I don’t begrudge the effort. But if we treat these marginal objectives as meaningful we lose the plot; the 2nd Amendment, and especially as currently interpreted, is fundamentally incompatible with the safety of this country’s citizens. Avoiding that truth isn’t ever going to get us to a better place.

  73. 73.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @raven:
    @Adam L Silverman:

    I agree with that opinion, and they paid a steep price for their misjudgment. I find it sadly ironic, perhaps, that their tragic overconfidence is being used to both demonize those with brain disorders like PTSD and resist regulation of firearms. Regulations that might have saved them.

  77. 77.

    wenchacha

    Yes, 350 million guns, and the Feds are gonna come take em. Thanks. We will not be getting rid of our guns for a very long time. The defensiveness, the persecution complex of ammosexuals is a true thing.

  78. 78.

    lamh36

    @ReignOfApril 26s27 seconds ago
    POTUS said “I’m only here for another year. When would I have started to try & take guns away?” Calls it a conspiracy theory. #GunsInAmerica

  79. 79.

    lamh36

    President Obama is tired of Anderson Cooper’s bullshit.

    ‏@keithboykin 22s23 seconds ago
    Yes, Anderson, it is fair to call it a conspiracy theory that I want to take away everyone’s guns. #GunsInAmerica

    @NerdyWonka 10s10 seconds ago
    Pres. Obama to Anderson: “I’m only here for another year. When would I have started to try and take guns away?”

    TRUTH. #GunsInAmerica

  80. 80.

    Mnemosyne

    @Rashi:

    Yes, and? In the UK, generic Tylenol is sold in blister packs because taking an overdose became a popular method of suicide, so the government made it harder for people to take an overdose. The Golden Gate Bridge has barriers up on the walkways to make it harder for people to jump off and kill themselves.

    Why are we supposed to provide suicidal people with an easy method of killing themselves rather than getting them help?

  82. 82.

    raven

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I was at a family event at the eatery down the street when a guy drove by, saw it and stopped. The dude was obviously distressed and started saying provocative stuff to some of the women. I got him off to the side and talked to him and his story was that he was a jar head and he’d just gotten home from Iraq. My conversation with him led me to believe he was telling it straight so I thought the best thing for me to do was to try to defuse him and get him out of there before someone took offense and got hurt. It took a while but I did get him to leave. It was a lousy situation but I thought my background put me in as good a position to influence him as anyone else who was there. It could have gone another way but it didn’t.

  83. 83.

    Adam L Silverman

    @the Conster: I’m pretty sure you would never have seen this type of thing, President taking questions from politely opposed people, from the previous administration or from either of his two opponents in 2008 and 2012 had they won.

  84. 84.

    Anya

    @raven: her busband had a gun and was a sniper yet he was killed by a gun but she believes guns make us safer. She used the crime statistics being down as proof that guns make us safer. I am sorry but that sounds uncritical and as someone who’s not open minded about this topic or she doesn’t care about the facts.

  85. 85.

    Eolirin

    @Adam L Silverman: Suicidal depression can occur in people who have demonstrated no prior signs of illness, due to circumstance or simple late life onset, so how do you propose keeping guns away from depressed people when they can have bought them before the onset of illness or can go and buy them between the onset and a diagnosis? Do you force psych evals prior to purchase? Do you take guns away from people who get a diagnosis if they already have them? Are risk factors part of the equation or do you need to demonstrate an actual condition? If the latter you will miss a lot of people.

  86. 86.

    Felanius Kootea

    @Eolirin: The townhall makes it clear to those who are sane that compromise with the truly gun crazy will never be reached. It’s then up to gun owners who are reasonable and those who do not own guns to try to make the needed changes.

  88. 88.

    lamh36

    Crystal4Obama ‏@crtconsu 2m2 minutes ago
    Damn! POTUS schooled folks on the Black-on-Black rhetoric w/ the 2/3 white suicides by guns.

  89. 89.

    lamh36

    @owillis 2m2 minutes ago
    NRA is on Fox News right now talking smack about Obama rather than talk to his face. Punks. #GunsInAmerica

  91. 91.

    Adam L Silverman

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): @raven: As Raven is pointing out, the hardest thing with helping veterans suffering from Post Traumatic Stress or other mental/emotional issues (from TBI or transition from combat back into garrison life, etc), is getting them to accept help. The indoctrination provided to uniformed service members, both formally and informally, about being there for the team and being strong and being a warrior is both necessary for building Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines (and Coasties), but it has its down side. Trying to get folks the help they need is hard. No matter how many mechanisms the DOD puts into place, no matter how good the command climate is regarding this, it is still very, very difficult. It is often even worse as personnel demobilize back into civilian life. All the structure they’re used to and support that is there is suddenly gone. Its a terrible, terrible thing.

  92. 92.

    Rashi

    @Mnemosyne: I was responding to your comment about making guns safer and corporate liability. Guns used in successful suicides are operating properly.

  96. 96.

    ksmiami

    The only way to solve the gun issue is to either repeal /replace the 2A or make everyone who has a gun get liability insurance through a state exchange – like a reverse Obamacare. If you are walking around TX with a rifle or glock you sure as [email protected]@ need to have a silver or gold insurance policy. No more of this accidental discharge get off scott free crap. Got a gun but no insurance, your gun gets impounded. Some little kid accidentally kills his sister. Jail time and You pay and pay and pay. People with heirloom rifles and muskets are grandfathered in. Hit them hard in the wallet – especially gun hoarders. Most so called responsible gun owners in this country are sh**-stupid and exactly the people who shouldn’t even be allowed to breed much less own a high powered fire arm.

  97. 97.

    lamh36

    Fuq CNN…

    @Green_Footballs 42s42 seconds ago
    Wow. And CNN cuts away to Hugh Hewitt, who says “It’s not a conspiracy to worry about this president’s abuse of power.” Fuck CNN.

  99. 99.

    Mike J

    @Rashi:

    Most gun deaths are suicides.

    Maybe that’s why there are fewer and fewer gun owners (with more and more guns each) every year.

    We can do nothing and they’ll get rid of the problem for us.

  100. 100.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Eolirin: I don’t have an answer. I am aware of what you are stating as factually accurate. And that’s part of the problem with the issue: how do you establish a set of rules that make sense and are useable when some of what they have to address are not binary issues or problems.

  102. 102.

    Adam L Silverman

    @amk: Mrs Kyle was polite. The sheriff from Arizona was polite. The gun shop owner was polite. They are clearly in opposition to what the President is proposing, but they, in their remarks this evening, were polite. That’s what I was referring to.

  104. 104.

    Eolirin

    @Felanius Kootea: I’m saying there’s no possible compromise to be had, even with the reasonable gun owners. That if gun ownership is a right and not a heavily restricted privilege there is no way to effectively limit gun deaths.

    The second you let it be a right the burden on society is to prove, ahead of time, that there’s a risk of harm from the individual buying the gun having one. That’s impossible to do on a broad enough scale to fix this mess. If it’s not a right the individual has to prove need, and it becomes possible to make a system that works. But it really does involve taking away almost everyone’s guns.

  105. 105.

    MazeDancer

    @Mnemosyne:

    The Golden Gate Bridge has barriers up on the walkways to make it harder for people to jump off and kill themselves.

    Why are we supposed to provide suicidal people with an easy method of killing themselves rather than getting them help?

    Such a good point. Have not it stated so clearly before.

    Even the Empire State Building makes it impossible to jump off of it. No one thinks that is abridging their freedoms.

    But only guns have profit makers on their side.

  107. 107.

    Adam L Silverman

    @ksmiami: @raven: KSMiami: the problem is going to be that even if you get rid of the 2nd Amendment, each state has their own version in their state constitutions. Some are older than the actual 2nd Amendment. A lot are much much stronger in terms of enumerating rights in regards to firearms. Anything on this issue is a very, very hard lift with all the implicit veto points built into the American political system.

  109. 109.

    Anya

    @Adam L Silverman: True. I was pleasantly surprised that non of them was grandstanding and performing for the wingnut crowd. They were more dignified and respectful than the folks running for president.

  110. 110.

    Anya

    @amk: tone is important. We all can’t have the same opinion. In this case there’s a respectful exchange of ideas & POV and that’s important.

  111. 111.

    raven

    @Adam L Silverman: After Sandy Hook I asked our pal over at SST if there was not some way to at least talk about the gun situation. Unfortunately I addressed him as a “gun enthusiast ” and got banned (again).

  112. 112.

    lamh36

    ‏@jonfavs 8m8 minutes ago
    And now the pundits on @CNN are ruining what was a very good town hall, per usual

  115. 115.

    Adam L Silverman

    @amk: Let me try this again because I seem to be confusing you. What I am trying to say is that I cannot imagine President Bush (43) or either Senator McCain or Governor Romney being willing to do an event like this. I cannot imagine any of those three gentlemen being willing to be confronted by people that oppose their policies, no matter how politely that opposition was presented.

    Does that clear things up?

  117. 117.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @raven: I have no doubt that your background allowed you to successfully defuse it, and you correctly intuited that. But you didn’t suggest you head to a range to bond over jarhead v. soldiers shooting competition.

    @Adam L Silverman: It’s unquestionable that it’s harder to persuade the back from duty PTSD folks to accept help for all the reasons you note. And that their entire life structure is removed when they need it most. I believe that – an ability to demonstrate genuine empathy based on some shared experience – is why raven was successful in talking the guy in Athens down. Kyle, on the other hand, had (imho) good intentions, but selected a spectacularly unwise means by which to be supportive.

  118. 118.

    Eolirin

    @Adam L Silverman: There’s a simple albeit politically toxic solution. Get rid of the second amendment, don’t let people have guns unless they can show real need and severely limit the types of weapons and quantity of ammunition that a person can have. It’s the only thing that’ll actually work, it’s how it had to be done for every country that’s addressed this.

    And we’d need a completely different electorate for it to have a chance in hell of happening.

  119. 119.

    MazeDancer

    @Adam L Silverman:

    They are clearly in opposition to what the President is proposing, but they, in their remarks this evening, were polite.

    That part was quite refreshing. A reminder of how Freedom is supposed to work. If only Congress could operate the same way.

    Actually, that part appealed to Mr. Obama. He believes so much in compromise to move things forward. Polite opposition was what he expected in DC. He also expected compromise. And kept trying to make it happen.

    And tonight he said outright what is his core belief: Move things forward. Change takes a long time. Create a foundation for others to make more change.

    I was following on Twitter. The RWNJ’s basically tweeted hate for 2 hours. There is so much fame and profit in hate. Like CNN had Hugh Hewitt start the commentary and he said “I am disappointed.” He makes his dough from hating Mr.Obama. So he has to professionally hate.

    I hope when Earth has progressed from the Stone Age of the Information Age, dialogue will have improved.

  120. 120.

    Adam L Silverman

    @raven: Which is interesting, because after the Charleston Shooting he explicitly stated something had to be done.

    What I’ve found over the years is that if you catch him at the wrong time, you can catch a face full of shot. Unfortunately, I’ve also found that it is almost impossible to know what will set him off anymore. I worry about him.

  125. 125.

    ksmiami

    @Adam L Silverman: But then it becomes a commerce issue state to state as opposed to a blanket right. As in just because someone can own a gun in say Michigan, bordering states might have very different rules/training requirements and regulations and as a result, maybe you can prevent at least some interstate gun trafficking. No amendment should supercede the original intent of the Constitution’s life, liberty etc. Gun ownership as sanctified in the US is a clear danger to many many lives and creates an environment of perpetual fear which is counter to the enlightened country the founders sought to create. We regulate autos and make owners get insurance. I see no reason why gun owners should not have to do the same as a bare minimum.

  129. 129.

    amk

    @Adam L Silverman: But it’s a meaningless comparison, isn’t it? We all know Obama isn’t afraid to meet the hostile opponents. My point is the gun rightists being polite doesn’t take away the stupidity of their nra talking points.

  130. 130.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Eolirin: Again, even if you could abolish the 2nd Amendment, each state has their own version of it in their constitutions. Some of these predate the 2nd Amendment and many of them enumerate even stronger rights pertaining to firearms ownership, more expansive ones, or both than the 2nd Amendment. Getting rid of the 2nd Amendment isn’t a panacea. It removes one implicit veto point, that’s it.

  131. 131.

    Adam L Silverman

    @raven: I don’t know and I’m not going to speculate. Its very frustrating though. I did a report up for someone on the Islamic State stuff and its the type of thing I’d like to be able to get an azimuth check from him on. Unfortunately that’s not possible right now.

  132. 132.

    Eolirin

    @ksmiami @Adam L Silverman: If you have the political capital to get rid of the second amendment, which is a massive lift, you almost certainly have the political capital to outright ban ownership at the federal or even constitutional level outside of narrow restrictions. So I don’t see how states’ rights enters into it in our fantasy world where the first step is even possible.

  133. 133.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Anya: Her husband’s gun and all his skill with guns didn’t keep him safer, so it would seem that his death would be a stellar example of how guns don’t keep us safer.

  134. 134.

    Bill Arnold

    @mclaren:

    Trump Supporters Appear To Be Misinformed, Not Uninformed

    I’ve been having fun the last few weeks with a “Don’t Believe Everything You Think” bumper sticker. Have seen a few bemused looks already.

  135. 135.

    Adam L Silverman

    @amk: I think it says something about his character versus theirs. That was the only point I was trying to make.

  136. 136.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Eolirin: its not about state’s rights. States don’t have rights, they have powers. Citizens/people have rights. Each state enumerates rights and recognizes them for citizens of that state in regard to firearm ownership. An attempted Federal ban will be challenged as infringing on rights of citizens at the state level, not the Federal. I’m not saying it would be a successful challenge, but its going to make the lift harder.

  137. 137.

    ksmiami

    @Adam L Silverman: BUT small changes at the state level are much more feasible and take into account real population and geographic differences amongst the states. I would actually argue that gun owners and people who want sensible gun laws would be better off all around if less control of the gun narrative was on a national level. Example Wayne Lapierre’s reaction to Sandy Hook was disgusting and inhumane and in the long run probably did more to turn the narrative against gun ownership even if the NRA wins small victories in the near term.

  138. 138.

    amk

    @Adam L Silverman:

    “That was the only point I was trying to make.”

    No, you were also trying to make the point that gun rightists being polite somehow validates their insanity.

  139. 139.

    Eolirin

    @Adam L Silverman: I guess what I’m trying to say is, in a world where you can get an amendment through the senate and reach the number of states required to ratify it you already have such overwhelming support at both the federal and state levels such that strong restrictions are an absurdly easy lift.

  140. 140.

    amk

    @ksmiami: Exactly. All this but it’s too hard, it can’t be done is just wanton obstruction to do something meaningful, however small it is.

  141. 141.

    Adam L Silverman

    @amk: I have a head cold, so its currently a little crowded in my noggin, but I’m pretty sure you’re not in here with me.

  142. 142.

    ksmiami

    @Adam L Silverman: I’m not even proposing a weapons ban per se. I’m saying that repealing the second amendment at the federal level is the only way to lance the boil we call gun absolutism – a quieter, state regulated firearms movement seems way more appealing and workable on both sides and perhaps less threatening than the current national lobbying efforts.

  143. 143.

    Anya

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): exactly. Also, when people say guns keep us safe, do they expect 1st graders to be armed? I just don’t get that logic. That’s why I think only two types of people believe that: someone with vested interest or an uninformed person who buys into the fear and propaganda. Taya Kyle doesn’t strike me as a gullible person.

  147. 147.

    debbie

    @JPL:

    Weapons need to be kept away from the mentally ill.

    That’s an easy thing to say. The problem is that people have different definitions of mental illness. I’d bet most Americans picture a shambling guy on the street, muttering to himself, and say that’s what mental illness is.

    Very few mass shootings are really due to mental illness. They’re all due to an individual, mentally ill or not, experiencing rage.

    Every human being has the capacity for rage. Blaming mental illness for mass shootings is a red herring.

  148. 148.

    Eolirin

    @Adam L Silverman: I wish. I’ve been pretty upfront about finding this impossible to achieve with the electorate we have. But anything short of this is going to be minimally effective.

    Don’t see how you get there without building a political movement that’s going to have to look like the civil rights movement or the labor movement and that’ll take decades at best.

  153. 153.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @debbie:

    Very few mass shootings are really due to mental illness. They’re all due to an individual, mentally ill or not, experiencing rage.

    Every human being has the capacity for rage. Blaming mental illness for mass shootings is a red herring.

    People with the brain disorders known as mental illness are far more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators of it. Mass shootings; indeed many shootings are – as you note – based on rage, i.e., committed by people with anger management problems. Those with anger management issues tend to be poorly socialized, as opposed to ill.

    The shootings committed by those with mental illness tend to be suicides.

  155. 155.

    debbie

    @JPL:

    I’m not arguing or disputing what you’re saying. I just think we need to acknowledge that every person is capable of committing mass murder providing they’re angry enough and have access to a weapon, and then proceed accordingly.

  156. 156.

    ksmiami

    @Adam L Silverman: Hmm – use the states rights argument? It seems like a lot of the paranoia about the gun control movement stems from a fear of a nationalized database and confiscation. Maybe by removing that threat – we could make progress? It’s that whole conundrum -Everyone hates Congress but likes their congress member – there is something to be said about localizing issues to remove some of the heat. My real problem with the 2A at the Fed level as it’s been interpreted is there’s a right there but no responsibility or accountability which in the end makes that right worth nothing – the 2A is now the exclusive property of the gun manufacturers using it as a marketing campaign.

  157. 157.

    Eolirin

    @amk: Well, there is a good chance the global warming will kill us off before the alternative of concerted effort and massive amounts of time manages to resolve things, so yeah, we may be screwed without the portal. :p

  158. 158.

    David Koch

    Jon Favreau ‏@jonfavs

    [email protected] getting tough gun questions on live TV from people across the political spectrum was a good thing – there should be more of that

    42 retweets 81 likes

    karnow venice, ca

    Thank you, Mr. President. Sad to see you go. You will be a tough act to follow. Not sure we will again see such greatness in our time.

    608 Recommend

    Jonathan Yukich New Haven, CT

    Thank you, Mr. President, for continuing to do all that you can. You will always have my admiration and gratitude for what you’ve done in the face of heartless, obstinate, often obtuse opposition. I was so proud to vote for you in 2008, prouder still in 2012. I doubt I’ll see a better leader in my lifetime. I only hope that you’ve set a standard for grace, class, poise and compassion in the office that many will follow after you.

    326 Recommend

  159. 159.

    Adam L Silverman

    @ksmiami: Again, states do not have rights, they have powers. The challenges will be by citizens in different states arguing for equal protection under the law and/or equal access. That if they have the right to do X as a Floridian, they should also have that right when traveling in New York. I’m not saying it would work, I’m not even sure it would work, but that’s how it would go.

  160. 160.

    ksmiami

    But without the 2a backup wouldn’t states be able to regulate guns under commerce anyway? I mean I can’t bring fruit from Michigan to California. Why is this such a big deal? The anti-abortionists in many states have practically almost killed family planning – I don’t see why we shouldn’t reuse the playbook so to speak.

  161. 161.

    Adam L Silverman

    @ksmiami: Is fruit or abortion an enumerated right in any state’s constitution? I’m not saying or suggesting that abortion isn’t a right. I’m stating that every state constitution enumerates some right for its citizenry involving firearms. That’s the difference.

    And I fully believe a smart strategy for the pro-choice movement would be to approach this as an equal access/equal protection issue, as well as a 1st Amendment issue. Judaism requires abortion if the life and health of the mother is endangered and does not recognize a personhood for the child until 30 days after birth. I know of at least two cases where Jewish women were denied abortions post Roe.

  162. 162.

    Mnemosyne

    @Eolirin:

    Do you take guns away from people who get a diagnosis if they already have them?

    I believe that in most states, you can get a court order to have someone’s guns taken away from them if they’re judged to be mentally incompetent due either to mental illness or dementia.

    Here in California, we have a new law that states that you can have your guns confiscated for up to 21 days if you’re charged with domestic violence. I have no problem with this law.

  163. 163.

    Mnemosyne

    @Rashi:

    Governments frequently tell manufacturers that they have to make it more difficult for people to use their product to kill themselves. I’m not sure why you think gun manufacturers should be immune from that just because a gun *can* be used for suicide.

  164. 164.

    Adam L Silverman

    Folks its been fun, but my head cold is winning. I’m going to lie down and rub dog bellies. You all have a nice night.

  165. 165.

    Mnemosyne

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):

    I have a somewhat tangential question that you may be able to answer for me: are personality disorders considered mental illnesses? I know they’re in the DSM, but there usually isn’t a recognized medication or therapy that can treat them (though apparently they’re having some luck with Dialectical Behavior Therapy and borderline personality disorder).

  167. 167.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @ksmiami:

    The only way to solve the gun issue is to either repeal /replace the 2A or make everyone who has a gun get liability insurance through a state exchange – like a reverse Obamacare.

    I don’t believe that.

    DC v Heller was a 5:4 SCOTUS vote. SCOTUS changes its mind on things from time to time. The next president may appoint quite a few SCOTUS justices as we know, and revisiting DC v. Heller would seem to be a natural thing to do given previous decisions on related issues.

    But beyond that DC v Heller says that guns can be regulated. Clever people can come up with lots of ways to regulate guns besides amending the Constitution or requiring insurance.

    Buy-back programs, requiring (or giving tax breaks for) annual training and licensing, taxes on ammunition, annual property taxes on guns (like many states have on cars), scaling back open carry/concealed carry licenses, etc., etc.

    Lots of things can be done to encourage people to give up their guns, or make them more expensive for them to keep.

    It’s legal for people to own machine guns in the US, but it’s very difficult in practice. We can increase the difficulty for people to own other types as well even under DC v Heller.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  168. 168.

    Tractarian

    * This impressive building is the St. Kilda Town Hall.

    So… you ran a Google image search for “town hall”? Is that the idea? Is there some other significance to this picture that I’m missing?

  169. 169.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Tractarian: You got a problem with Obama holding a town hall in Australia?

    ;-)

    GMU doesn’t have particularly impressive architecture.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  170. 170.

    Eolirin

    @Mnemosyne: Suicidal depression isn’t generally going to get you declared mentally incompetent, I don’t think. People with severe depression, for instance, generally try to kill themselves when they’re either seeing the beginnings of a relapse or, I believe even more frequently, when they’re coming out of an episode, not when they’re at their worst. And a lot of suicidal depression is momentary and doesn’t have a history behind it, so it’s really hard to catch in time. Showing there’s a risk of suicide may be very difficult without an actual attempt happening first, and the presence of a gun makes it unlikely to be unsuccessful.

    And to be clear, I don’t have a problem with laws like that either, I was just walking through the implications.

    It’s harder with depression, because your time scale has to be a lot larger; hell, I’m not sure 21 days is even remotely adequate in terms of that law to begin with and this would have to be a lot longer. So taking guns away from people with who develop depression for a period of years, and possibly forever because you don’t necessarily stop having relapses, would be challenged very hard on constitutional grounds by the gun lobby and set off a panic of they’re coming to take away your guns amongst the absolutionists, and you have to do it if you want to reduce suicides. It’s a hard lift politically, and it’s not enough by itself.

  171. 171.

    Prescott Cactus

    @Adam L Silverman: The NRA and its membership boycotted Smith & Wesson after it was revealed in 1999 that the company was developing a smart gun for the U.S. government.[26][27] (from Wikipedia.)

    IIRC a smart handgun came out and the local Ma & Pa dealers would not buy it for fear of the wrath of the NRA

  172. 172.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Eolirin: Obama’s executive order is multi-faceted:

    Increase Mental Health Treatment and Reporting to the Background Check System

    The Administration is committed to improving care for Americans experiencing mental health issues. In the last seven years, our country has made extraordinary progress in expanding mental health coverage for millions of Americans. This includes the Affordable Care Act’s end to insurance company discrimination based on pre-existing conditions, required coverage of mental health and substance use disorder services in the individual and small group markets, and an expansion of mental health and substance use disorder parity policies, all of which are estimated to help more than 60 million Americans. About 13.5 million more Americans have gained Medicaid coverage since October 2013, significantly improving access to mental health care. And thanks to more than $100 million in funding from the Affordable Care Act, community health centers have expanded behavioral health services for nearly 900,000 people nationwide over the past two years. We must continue to remove the stigma around mental illness and its treatment—and make sure that these individuals and their families know they are not alone. While individuals with mental illness are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators, incidents of violence continue to highlight a crisis in America’s mental health system. In addition to helping people get the treatment they need, we must make sure we keep guns out of the hands of those who are prohibited by law from having them. Today, the Administration is announcing the following steps to help achieve these goals:

    * Dedicate significant new resources to increase access to mental health care. Despite our recent significant gains, less than half of children and adults with diagnosable mental health problems receive the treatment they need. To address this, the Administration is proposing a new $500 million investment to help engage individuals with serious mental illness in care, improve access to care by increasing service capacity and the behavioral health workforce, and ensure that behavioral health care systems work for everyone. This effort would increase access to mental health services to protect the health of children and communities, prevent suicide, and promote mental health as a top priority.

    * Include information from the Social Security Administration in the background check system about beneficiaries who are prohibited from possessing a firearm. Current law prohibits individuals from buying a gun if, because of a mental health issue, they are either a danger to themselves or others or are unable to manage their own affairs. The Social Security Administration (SSA) has indicated that it will begin the rulemaking process to ensure that appropriate information in its records is reported to NICS. The reporting that SSA, in consultation with the Department of Justice, is expected to require will cover appropriate records of the approximately 75,000 people each year who have a documented mental health issue, receive disability benefits, and are unable to manage those benefits because of their mental impairment, or who have been found by a state or federal court to be legally incompetent. The rulemaking will also provide a mechanism for people to seek relief from the federal prohibition on possessing a firearm for reasons related to mental health.

    * Remove unnecessary legal barriers preventing States from reporting relevant information to the background check system. Although States generally report criminal history information to NICS, many continue to report little information about individuals who are prohibited by Federal law from possessing or receiving a gun for specific mental health reasons. Some State officials raised concerns about whether such reporting would be precluded by the Privacy Rule issued under the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). Today, the Department of Health and Human Services issued a final rule expressly permitting certain HIPAA covered entities to provide to the NICS limited demographic and other necessary information about these individuals.

    It’s about more than just keeping guns away from suicidal people.

    There’s usually a progression in suicide. CDC Fact Sheet for 2015. There are usually signs. People knowing and acting on the signs, and keeping guns away from people in danger of attempting suicide, are good things. There are things we can do.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  173. 173.

    rikyrah

    @lamh36:

    That Kyle woman, I don’t care who her husband was, is a plant, with a big name to get headlines. the NRA isn’t there, but you can bet they have their plants!

    of course, she’s a plant.

  174. 174.

    Eolirin

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I don’t disagree, I’m just not optimistic about the effectiveness of the proposed measures to make a significant difference.

    As full disclosure: I’ve spent almost my entire life suffering from clinical depression. This isn’t an intellectual exercise for me, I know what suicidal ideation feels like, it’s been a pervasive presence in my life. Having a support network of family or friends who you’re interacting with regularly, and who know to look for them is pretty damn necessary for noticing those signs, and they’ll definitely be keeping you away from guns, but it’s hardly foolproof. If you’re smart and suicidal, it’s painfully easy to hide almost all of the signs. There are provisions in there for getting an exemption from those restrictions; when you hit suicidal hard, you can absolutely fake seeming fine for extended periods.

    It’s a very big problem for policy that it’s really hard to tell the difference between a recovery and someone who’s at the greatest risk of killing themselves.

  175. 175.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Eolirin: I understand where you’re coming from and agree that it’s a tough problem.

    A couple of on-line friends have lost their battle with the “black dog”. :-( One of them made a very rash decision after an argument. The other had been having troubles for a very long time. Each of us is different…

    A powerful story about Christen McGinnes is worth a read by everyone. It’s very painful, but can help us see that even in the worst of circumstances there is still a tomorrow and things can get better.

    Hang in there.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  176. 176.

    Eolirin

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I do my best. I’ve gotten to the point where I can just sit with it and wait for it to pass without taking it too seriously, but it’s taken a lot of years to get there.

    Sorry to hear about your friends.

  177. 177.

    Mnemosyne

    @Eolirin:

    You may not come back to see this, but just in case:

    Fifteen years ago, G’s best friend shot himself in the head over the weekend, and they didn’t find his body until he failed to show up to work on Monday. G is still haunted by the fact that he missed a call from his friend that weekend because he was out on a date with me. He wonders to this day what would have happened if he had been home to take the call and if he would have been able to talk his friend out of it. I wonder what would have happened if his friend hadn’t had guns easily at hand that night.

    It’s very, very difficult to stop someone who is determined to kill themselves. Even with the barriers that are up, a few people manage to throw themselves off the Golden Gate Bridge every year. A few people in the UK manage to get enough Tylenol out of the blister pack to kill themselves. But slowing people down and making it more difficult for them to kill themselves right at that moment is sometimes enough for them to make a phone call, or have a friend stop by, or call their therapist. Making it more difficult for people to impulsively kill themselves with a gun won’t end suicide, but it could save a few thousand people a year, and I think that’s worth doing.

  178. 178.

    AxelFoley

    @lamh36:

    President Obama is tired of Anderson Cooper’s bullshit.

    ‏@keithboykin 22s23 seconds ago
    Yes, Anderson, it is fair to call it a conspiracy theory that I want to take away everyone’s guns. #GunsInAmerica

    @NerdyWonka 10s10 seconds ago
    Pres. Obama to Anderson: “I’m only here for another year. When would I have started to try and take guns away?”

    TRUTH. #GunsInAmerica

    Heard that part on the replay on SiriusXM as I was driving into work late last night/early this morning. I’m glad PBO slapped that moron down.

  179. 179.

    AxelFoley

    @ksmiami:

    The only way to solve the gun issue is to either repeal /replace the 2A or make everyone who has a gun get liability insurance through a state exchange – like a reverse Obamacare. If you are walking around TX with a rifle or glock you sure as [email protected]@ need to have a silver or gold insurance policy. No more of this accidental discharge get off scott free crap. Got a gun but no insurance, your gun gets impounded. Some little kid accidentally kills his sister. Jail time and You pay and pay and pay. People with heirloom rifles and muskets are grandfathered in. Hit them hard in the wallet – especially gun hoarders. Most so called responsible gun owners in this country are sh**-stupid and exactly the people who shouldn’t even be allowed to breed much less own a high powered fire arm.

    This. All of this.

  180. 180.

    Eolirin

    @Mnemosyne: I completely agree, and stories like that are heartbreaking. It’s an issue particularly close to home for me; I really don’t think I’d be here to be having this conversation if we had had a gun in the house when I was growing up. It makes it too easy.

    So, yes, a lack of guns would make a huge difference, and anything that makes it harder to get one is a good thing. But I question whether the proposed changes will actually do much to limit access as a practical matter. I’m extremely skeptical that they will, and I’m extremely skeptical that anything can that’s compatible with the current interpretation of the second amendment. It feels like we can’t do more than the equivalent of printing suicide prevention hotline numbers on Tylenol bottles rather than blister packing them. Better than nothing but grossly inadequate.

    I’d be happy to be wrong here. I’d be really happy to be wrong. I will be ecstatic to see a sizable drop in the numbers. I’m just not hopeful.

Comments are closed.