Now that we’re into day 9 of the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge by Ammon Bundy and his compatriots its time to check back in and see what’s happening. While there are a few signs of normalcy in that the Harney County Schools are back in session and Federal law enforcement has set up a command post in Harney County. Though they are being very tight lipped about what, if anything, they have planned.
In the meantime things are just downright weird. Bundy and his followers released a list of supplies they needed or wanted. The list had over eighty items on it including vanilla flavored coffee creamer – very chi chi. And their requests seem to have been fulfilled.
They’ve also been allowed to come and go – to shop and attend church. But things got really surreal when militiamen from the Pacific Patriots Network answered Ammon Bundy’s video based call for assistance and actually showed up to provide assistance. When they got to the refuge they were told by Ammon Bundy that he had not asked for them to come and their presence wasn’t wanted. So they headed into town to talk to the sheriff.
But wait, there’s more! The most junior Oregon state representative, despite being told to stay away, showed up with a group of out of state state representatives in tow on a fact finding mission. And then brought Nevada state legislator and Bundy fangirl Michelle Fiore in by conference call.
Today’s reporting brought other fun surprises! Apparently Bundy has been planning this for months with a militia leader from Montana. They’ve also destroyed a fence on the wildlife refuge property and put up their own signage to replace/cover the official Malheur Federal Wildlife Refuge signage.
While its likely that this is not serious reporting, there are two reports that enraged birders* are massing, incognito, in Burns to retake the wildlife refuge.
Finally, I think its important to note that in 2014 Idaho studied the impact of trying to reclaim Federal lands and place them under state and local administration. You’ll not be surprised to find out that the results of the study were that it wasn’t feasible. As in it was $111 million a year unfeasible. That’s because everything that the Federal government – as in you and I – now pays for would have to be paid for solely by Idahoans. This includes firefighters for wildfires, rangers and other park and land managers, signage, road repair, utilities, etc. In historical context these results are not really surprising given that this was how we used to do things before President Teddy Roosevelt and it never worked out well at all. You won’t be surprised to learn that this has not stopped Idaho officials from pursuing the idea anyway.
* It was unclear if these are birdwatchers, people who hunt with raptors – like hawks and falcons, or some combination of the two.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
I just asked about the fence destruction with agency excavating equipment no less in Cole’s thread below. Now I’ll read your thoughts.
Baud
Heh. They want mustard.
Adam L Silverman
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): My thoughts are it should just be one more item on the charge sheet for the Federal indictments.
dmsilev
I think they should be charged with littering.
And just for the sake of poetic justice, the local sheriff should show up at the trial with twenty-seven 8×10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence.
GregB
Hey, if you feed animals doesn’t that make them lazy and expectant of free food?
Aren’t these guys just moochers at the trough, looking for a handout for nothing?
dmsilev
@efgoldman: In a better world then the one we live in, there would be a Rent-a-Roc company.
K488
@dmsilev:Well it does look as though they are trying to get anything they want…
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Oven cleaner?
Judge asks people not to take supplies to the Refuge, so they don’t get in the way if things go wrong.
Thanks for the update. Greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Scott.
benw
I wonder what it is about eggs that they’re singled out as “needed badly.” Like, if you had EVERYTHING ELSE on that list, you could do without eggs, unless Jebediah really freaks out in the morning if you don’t serve him a mean Eggs Benedict and they’re running low?
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: I thought it was a particularly nice rhetorical flourish – if I do say so myself.
Suzanne
Lordy. Look at all of those tobacco products. Buncha jack Mormons up there.
benw
@efgoldman: I think that “Shaving Creme” adds a touch of Continental class to the list.
Gin & Tonic
I am flabbergasted by their ability to come and go. I can understand the Feds being patient, I can understand decisions about how to allocate resources, all that, but you hop in your truck and drive to town, you should get free Federal bracelets toot sweet. I’ve looked at the maps and the Google Earth and Google Streetview images, and this isn’t a hard concept.
dmsilev
@efgoldman: I noticed throw rugs were on the list. Perhaps in some nice accent colors, and maybe they could do something about those window treatments while they were at it.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: I think that was supposed to be aprons and sanitizer.
SamR
@dmsilev: They only want rugs that can really tie the room together.
Mike J
Hey, if it’s costing the government money, that’s good for the citizens, right?
Right?
Right?
beltane
They need tampons. And pads. These wingnut ladies don’t know how to plan ahead.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Gin & Tonic: The “patriots” may be thinking that if Gomer doesn’t show up after his trip to town that the Federales are on their way and go nuts shooting at anything that moves.
The feds should be watching and documenting and not moving in until they’re ready with a good plan with lots of contingencies (as was said: No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.).
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: for the barbecue grill
Mike in NC
No demand for Champaign and caviar? Disappointing.
amk
well, at least, if the feds don’t (or don’t want to) get them, all that fat food and tobacco will.
Belafon
It seems that people are also sending dildos, and the they’re not happy about it:
Ohio Mom
My favorite was “medicine.” That’s a pretty broad category.
benw
@efgoldman:
I’ve got this: they mean aircraft aprons. Obviously they’re planning on getting a few super-sweet MiG-21s to land on site and they need a place to park them. REVOLUTION, COMRADE!
trollhattan
@Belafon:
Heh. “Ah get the big’n.”
Baud
On one hand, I want this to be over. On the other, the lulz are pretty good. Hope no innocent people get hurt.
dmsilev
Shampoo, conditioner, and body wash.
Real rugged survivalists we have here.
Suzanne
@efgoldman: So I guess the chew is okay. EXCEPT THEY’RE MORMONS.
Mormons will cheat with Diet Coke, but smoking is still a pretty hard fuckin’ limit. That didn’t stop one of my LDS friends from dying in a bathroom with a needle in his arm, though. Fuck. Now I’m depressed.
a different chris
No cedar cheese on the list? I am disapoint.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
What a waste of dildos. I mean they’ve got their guns, right?
Adam L Silverman
@a different chris: was that supposed to be cheddar?
Adam L Silverman
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): That is not a recommended carry option:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/08/woman-pistol-vagina-charged-unlawful-carry/71899282/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/tn-woman-loaded-gun-hidden-vagina-pleads-guilty-article-1.2440808
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@dmsilev: And they need gaming supplies, slippers, and underwear, with sizes noted. Except for the gaming supplies, which apparently fit all.
Mike J
@Adam L Silverman: Here in the PNW we eat cedar cheese. And madrona.
beltane
@Baud: The longer this goes on, the angrier I get and the harder it is to see the lulz.
Suzanne
@efgoldman: TROOF.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: okay, noted. I may be taking on an assignment out there, so I’ll add it to my mental file.
sigaba
@Suzanne: Can Mormons drink caffeine free Coke? I assume so.
I was annoyed with the total Federal inaction at first, but frankly these guys have been such losers over the past week, they’re just utterly the antithesis of everything they stand for…
I don’t think Obama should set up roadblocks. I think he should sell tickets.
amk
@beltane: the feds’ courage in handling these ratfuckers is quite revealing.
Mike J
Cue the “sacrifice liberty for safety” quote.
seaboogie
@Ohio Mom:
Loved that.
Also, it appears that none of these genius, government-overthrowin’ occupiers brought extra skivvies as they need boxer shorts in all sizes. And this is why I think that they had a big ol’ camp meeting deciding what they needed, and there was probably a fairly long discussion about underpants: tighty-whities v. boxers v. bike-short style…apparently these dudes need their balls to roam free too – not just their bulls.
amk
basically the terrorists want the every day comfort of the civilized world while wilding it out.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: What’s interesting is no one every gives the context of that quote. Dr. Franklin was using it to rhetorically admonish and belittle the Penn family and their quisling colonial governor who was preventing Franklin and the Pennsylvania colonial assembly from taxing the Penn’s on their landholding to raise funds to secure the border areas against attacks by Native American tribes during the French and Indian War. It has nothing to do with civil liberties or liberty in the sense of freedom.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said
Suzanne
@sigaba: Most of them drink tons and tons of caffeinated Coke. The Word of Wisdom says “no hot beverages”, which apparently means no coffee and tea, and no iced tea (usually), but hot cocoa is okay, as is soda. Logic, they don’t haz it.
Mike J
@Adam L Silverman: Why didn’t he get Mexico to pay for a wall?
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: I do not know. Perhaps because it doesn’t border Pennsylvania.
Omnes Omnibus
OT: An astronaut singing “Space Oddity” on the International Space Station.
Ruckus
@Mike J:
Didn’t have tRump’s sales acumen.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Damn! Where are the spare d20s and the graph paper when you need them?
sigaba
@Suzanne: “Hot” beverages actually has a rich connotation- the Pilgrims called all alcohol “hot.” The term is figurative.
For the record I know Mormons that abstain from all caffeine, Coke, NoDoz, Red Bulls.
beltane
Eew, I just saw that Rupert Murdoch and Jerry Hall are engaged.
amk
Burns mayor to Bundys: “Our community does not want you here.” Big applause. #Oregonstandoff
dmsilev
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again): Send them a whole sack of d4s; within a day, they’ll all have checked themselves into the nearest hospital with punctured feet.
Damn things are modern caltrops.
J
@dmsilev: Summons up an appealing picture. I’ve run into birders with some immensely long lenses. I wonder if the birders could set up blinds and post daily the most embarrassing pictures possible of these cretins.
Adam L Silverman
@beltane: I like the quote at the end of the article: “Elsewhere the relationship has been credited as responsible for Murdoch’s “renewed vigour””.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jan/12/rupert-murdoch-and-jerry-hall-announce-engagement-in-classifieds
Yeah, I’m sure its the relationship… That dude is 84, he’s got the testosterone levels of a 3 year old girl.
Mike J
@beltane: She’s never had good taste in men.
amk
Happening now: taking out a federal fence, post by post #bundymilitia #Oregonstandoff
NotMax
While starting the words with an s is an acceptable alternative, better bet is to go with the more standard chi chi (or chi-chi) to avoid confusion.
Shi shi (sometimes shi-shi) also refers to urination (“Gotta go shi shi, right now!”).
seaboogie
@amk: Not happening now – it’s dark out.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: This is what I get for looking it up first.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Adam L Silverman: There are three year old girls who would like you to take that back, Mr.
PurpleGirl
@Adam L Silverman: Meaning our militiamen can’t spell. What morans.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@dmsilev:
And it limits them to the shittiest spells and weaponry. If they can’t defeat Tiamat, how in the hell will they ever beat the Federal government?
Mike J
@PurpleGirl: If our heavily armed loons can’t spell, what hope is there for our republic?
dimmsdale
It’s really hard to see where this is going, and how it ends; so far it’s just like an outing of the Raccoon Lodge at taxpayer expense. I hope the Feds have the place bugged, though–easy to see these pissants upping the ante by letting local ranchers graze their cattle on sanctuary land, or hosting hunting parties, or something equally “rollin’ coal” contrarian, and it would be nice if the Feds had something up their sleeves for such eventualities (Adam, I think you said you have contacts in the federal LEO community? any idea what they’re up to?).
I fully understand and support the reasoning behind restraint, but it has the unhappy effect of normalizing this sort of behavior–even making it look like something of a lark. What fun! Wear a gun, take over a wildlife sanctuary, strut and preen! What could go wrong? (Hm, I think I’ve lost any sense of fun about these sad losers.)
Amir Khalid
@beltane:
No problem. Call them back later.
NotMax
May have happened, but haven’t seen, heard or read anything about any local merchants whatsoever refusing to sell them goods.
Adam L Silverman
@dimmsdale: I do, I have not been in touch with them since early December, and I have no idea what they’re doing. Since I don’t need to know, they would not tell me and I would not ask. And if I did, I 1) wouldn’t be even blogging about this stuff and 2) wouldn’t be able to tell anyone what I know.
I’m looking at all the same open source news reporting and getting my information that way.
amk
@NotMax: they have already lost the tourist business or whatever business they had before, why should they lose any more due to these clowns? deplete their money is what I would do.
JohnB
How do Idaho officials expect to administer land when they can’t afford it?
I don’t know, maybe by selling it to their cronies?
Call me cynical, or call me a lifelong Idahoan; it amounts to the same thing.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@NotMax: Majority of people at community meeting tonight asked them to leave the Refuge.
Cheers,
Scott.
sigaba
@srv: Iran and Malheur. To quote Marx:
Bill E Pilgrim
@sigaba:
The farce is strong in this one.
Mike J
Seemed like there was a lot of sympathy at the town hall meeting for the position that the gubbmint is mean to ranchers, but they still didn’t want nutbags there causing trouble.
amk
@srv: veteran meaning washed-out?
ThresherK (GPad)
The largest size clothing requested is only XL? Am I reading that right?
Also, none of this “come and go” shit. At least make them get hall passes from a grown-up, if they’re gonna act like failing Boy Scouts.
Soylent Green
One reason they might have chosen a wildlife refuge:
A month ago when the House Freedumb Caucus threatened another government shutdown, they had a short list of demands. One was to defund Planned Parenthood. Another was to prevent the Fish & Wildlife Service from moving forward with an interagency plan to protect the threatened Greater Sage Grouse across its western range with some new controls on grazing activity.
The Bundy gang hates any animal species they can’t sell or carve into steaks, so their breed of rancher might have targeted USFWS, seeing these measures as the last straw.
a different chris
@Adam L Silverman: No, it’s from another list with striking similarities. via Wonkette from about a million years ago
Adam L Silverman
I’m to bed. You all have fun until Anne Laurie puts up the next thread.
Adam L Silverman
@a different chris: okay.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@efgoldman:
Snyder would be out on his ass in a couple of seconds if he fucked with state or Federal land. Teabillies who love to hunt would be the one’s showing him the door.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@efgoldman:
That city isn’t exactly full of his voters, or even people his voters care about. His voters do care about hunting and snowmobiling on state land, and they’ve always been able to do that (not a lot of endangered species- but also not a lot of mineral wealth below the land, and little value for farming in the soil beneath the state parks and national forests in most of Michigan).
sukabi
@GregB: yes, it does and yes they are.
sukabi
@beltane: you sure it’s the ladies that need them?
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@efgoldman:
Not from the rest of us, no. But from his base…Yeah. Huge swaths of Republican voters who live north of Detroit and west of Ann Arbor would just as soon see Detroit, Flint, Benton Harbor, and parts of Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo and Lansing become ghost towns.
BBA
Y’know, I’m kinda sympathetic to the notion that the government shouldn’t really own half the state of Nevada – it seems a bit royalist, is all. In Britain the king used to make more money on rent than on taxes, and the UK government still makes a sizable profit on the Crown’s vast real estate holdings. Here in the East we wanted no part of those feudal relics and wasted no time after the Revolution in selling off what used to be Crown land at pennies on the dollar. Hence the lack of BLM/NPS/USFS presence here, and our state parks and forests being a patchwork affair of whatever the state governments were able to buy back from private hands…maybe we should’ve held onto a little more? It’s an open question, is all I’m saying.
Regardless, clearly the Bundy bunch are batshit insane, and stupid to boot.
Soylent Green
This has been good for laughs, but if the site is not surrounded by roadblocks by the end of the week, I will be wondering what the fuck is wrong with federal law enforcement.
Soylent Green
The government owns 80% of Nevada because the homesteaders didn’t want it. Try making a living in a place with no water.
Kay
Some people have to follow laws or there are consequences, and other people don’t.
What other possible conclusion can anyone reach looking at this?
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@Soylent Green:
The locals just might take care of this on their own. I think that would take the wind out of the militants sails for some time to come.
Ruckus
@BBA:
Well other than poor feed land (which they lease out at a very, very cheap price, to those that actually pay for it) a lot of what the federal gov owns is already national parks or relatively useless. How much of the rest of the country can say that about? Very little. Back east, almost none. Travel a bit in the west and see for yourself.
And notice that the Bundy clan doesn’t want to buy the land, they just want to use it for free. They want to water the tree of liberty with cow piss.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay:
That the feds don’t want a mass casualty situation? They know who is in there. They know what is being done. Get back to me if there are no charges filed.
Kay
Some people can steal equipment and destroy property and absolutely nothing happens to them, and everyone else gets picked up and charged with crimes, which is what those actions are.
Sure. That’s fine. I accept my (lesser) position in the “will be charged” group of citizens, those without special snowflake immunity status.
Jebediah, RBG
@benw:
somebody call me?
Soylent Green
@Ruckus: Not to be forgotten is that these guys are stooges for the real forces behind the idea of privatizing the public lands — deep-pocketed mining, logging, energy, and development interests, who wouldn’t lose any sleep over pushing all these cowboys off the land.
CaseyL
@beltane: Ick and ugh. Is she really only 59? I’m 59 and look better than that, and I’m not a former model!
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
They’re moving on and off the place. They’re in groups of twos and threes. It has nothing to do with “mass casualties” unless arresting one of them as they enter the motel or grocery store means the others will go on some kind of rampage back at what they’re calling “the compound”, in which case I guess all one has to do is threaten violence and you’re home free. Good to know.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@efgoldman:
I’m not sure if there’s anyone with any sort of jurisdiction to file charges who will- outside of the DoJ. Michigan’s AG (a DeVos guy, Bill Schuette) is about as big a partisan hack as they come, and I don’t know the politics pf the Genesee County prosecutor.
amk
@Kay: armed. dangerous. white. the end.
Anne Laurie
Can’t find it now, but it was being reported — at Gawker? — that the list-writer was actually one of the Bundy bunch’s moms. Ergo, the stress on clean undies and hand sanitizer — not to mention eggs, part of every healthful LDS farm breakfast…
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: @Kay: Obviously, I am wrong. I’ll just bow out. Because the idea that arresting a few might enrage the rest and cause violence might not be in the fed’s thought process. It’s only been a few days. Let’s let professionals try to handle the situation. YMMV.
Anne Laurie
@CaseyL:
Old Texas saying: She looks like she was rode hard and put away wet.
Kay
@amk:
Well, the judge isn’t afraid of upsetting them and he probably lives there, or near there:
Their media spokesperson went to the town meeting. It seems like someone could have arrested him, there in the gym.
I just find this amazing. If you or I left our CAR there that long it would be towed. They’re allowed to keep theirs for snack runs.
Ruckus
@Kay:
I can certainly see that it looks like these morons are getting special treatment but I think part of our idea of what justice is, is that we arrest or shoot (and I’m not saying that your position is that we shoot them) law breakers. And this to me comes from the local policing that we see and hear so much of. Especially in the case of minorities. Which is shoot always, then walk away. But this is not one or two people at a time and there is a relatively big movement behind them and starting a war is exactly what a lot of us would rather not see. Me for instance, I’ve seen enough warfare in my lifetime to last several. In reality what are they hurting? A fence, a sign? I think it’s better to show these morons for what they are. As I understand it several of the folks from two years ago have been arrested, quietly. The feds have had experience with group holdups and have not handled them well in the past. Shouldn’t that have changed and if you agree with that, what do you actually do? I’d say that for the rather remote area this is getting a force in there to handle things without setting off the town and the rest of the morons would be ideal and that takes some time and effort. And look that representatives are showing up to put in their $.00005 worth, even after they were asked to stay far away. This is a cluster fuck and going in heavy will just make it worse. So you ask, do I want these assholes to get away with this? And the answer is of course not, but I also don’t want a shitstorm if it can be avoided. Which is what it looks like is happening. Now if nothing else happens then I fully agree that the feds didn’t do enough. But we have time on our side, they’ve already shown their hand.
seaboogie
Re: the Bundy gang wish list….
I don’t follow Twitter, but https://balloon-juice.com/2016/01/11/balloon-juice-bunker-standoff-update-day-9-the-three-ring-circus-edition/#comments with posts to a lot of what I was thinking – great fun.
Soylent Green
There’s a full-sized Safeway half an hour away in Burns. I go there every time I am in town. Mom can buy all that stuff there. Of course it’s easier to invite strangers to give it to you for free.
Ruckus
@Anne Laurie:
That would be classic, bunch of little boys go to camp and mom pins a note to their jackets.
Kay
@Ruckus:
Every single day, thousands of times a day, people are arrested for these same crimes. You can’t steal a piece of equipment and use it to tear down a fence that doesn’t belong to you. You can’t go into someone’s office and paw thru their belongings or search their files. That has nothing to do with police shootings.
If mediation is the way we handle these crimes now, fine, but that has to be applied to everyone.
Soylent Green
@Ruckus: You’re quite right. Going in heavy will make it worse. But giving the perps unfettered access to the media is enabling them to write the narrative, which the nitwit media repeats unquestioned. Then opportunistic politicians take their shots. The longer this goes on, this immensely fictional narrative just gets stronger, and conservative bullshit overpowers reasonable policymaking. The lie goes round the world before the truth can get its boots on.
amk
@Ruckus:
“As I understand it several of the folks from two years ago have been arrested, quietly.”
Any cites? I still see daddy bundy out and about egging on his terrorist sons.
Soylent Green
What I meant to say was, let’s avoid a shootout, but seriously, do we have to allow this to become such a circus? They have way too much freedom to come and go at will.
Bobby Thomson
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s been over a week. And Clive’s been avoiding any repercussions for a lot longer than that. When you allow madmen to dictate policy because you allow fear of their potential reaction to guide everything you do, to the extent it overrides all other priorities, well, you wind up with bad policy. Never let a crazy person run your life.
I mean, where does this stop? “Well, gee, they’ve taken over the ranger stations at Yellowstone and they’re letting oil companies come in and drill wherever they want, but if we arrest even a single person someone might get maaaaad. Or we might wind up having to shoot some of them and create martyrs. No more Tim McVeighs!”
a different chris
o/t: Grand Jury Does Not Indict Stonewall Officer in Man’s Death
Reports at the time were that the cop had the man in a chokehold (using his flashlight) for nearly an hour while waiting for backup. But there was ‘no evidence’ of any of that. I guess the poor guy killed himself while the cop valiantly tried to save his life, but despite heroic efforts was unable to do so.
Steeplejack (phone)
@efgoldman:
I noticed the same.
Ruckus
@Kay:
Is everyone an organized and armed mob? With others willing to join them and start a firefight? With congressmen who approve of what they are doing? This is not three kids doing petty vandalism. We piss and moan every day about the 1138 people killed by cops last year, and yes many of them for doing nothing wrong. Which standard do we want to apply, not just here but everywhere? Law enforcement with heavy trigger fingers or not? Granted these guys are assholes and morons but don’t they deserve the same respect we ask for young Mr. Rice, or any of the other countless victims of law enforcement? I know it pisses me off that these assholes are being treated better than those mostly black victims of law enforcement but I want them to stop that not keep doing it. The sheriff here seems to be doing this, the town seems to be doing this, why can’t we?
I want a better world, one where cops don’t shoot first and always. This is what that looks like.
amk
@Soylent Green: yup, they are just reinforcing their rw meme that the feds are clueless and quite afraid to touch them ‘cos waco or ruby ridge or whatev. ffs, they were eons ago and surely feds have since become wiser and adopted some new tactics and strategies?
seaboogie
@Ruckus: This.
a different chris
@Bobby Thomson: ‘The rules are the rules, except when they’re not’ is a perfectly acceptable way to run things. It’s 11th Dimensional Chess stuff, you aren’t sophisticated enough to understand it.
a different chris
@Ruckus: How about arresting them? Why is there no middle ground between drone strikes and letting them do anything they want?
TriassicSands
I don’t want to see any martyrs come out of this — although anyone who considered one of these idiots a martyr would be someone I wouldn’t respect in the least — but i would like to see an equal application of the laws, and I don’t see that here.
These militia types seem to be getting a pass from the government. Has Bundy in Nevada paid his bills yet?
The real injustice here is letting a bunch of ignorant yokels do what they want without so much as a peep from the federal government. If the feds can’t figure out how to deal with these idiots without it resulting in a conflagration, then we should expect a lot of resignations.
Maybe it’s time for a bunch of progressive groups to start occupying government property all over the US and publishing their demands — like demanding a constitutional amendment that says money is not speech. The list of legitimate demands that progressives could come up with would be incredibly long. The demands of the Bundy Bunch basically boil down to asking for a free lunch — every day, forever. Somewhere in their Constitution it says they have the right to be parasites.
amk
@Ruckus: First of all, no one here is asking the feds to nuke ’em. So, that’s a false premise to base your pious explanations. Second, why are they being allowed to swell their ranks when you already know that there are enough loons inside. Third, why are the local sheriff and local population hung out to dry to deal with this mess? After all, it’s a federal property and where are they? And finally, a kid with a toy gun killed with a two second warning is equal to armed to the teeth real thugs who are openly stealing peoples’ property? Really?
Ruckus
@Soylent Green:
I don’t disagree with you at all. But what can be done other than start shooting? At the point in an ongoing situation if you start arresting those heading into town what about those who might be heading there to back up the morons? Do they start shooting and then it’s on, a firefight?
There is no easy answer, no matter how it looks. It never is with heavily armed morons. If, and this is a big if, they had holed up in a city with easy access and enough manpower to create a tight parameter then it probably wouldn’t have gotten what so far along.Tactically, for them, this location has some reasonableness. Of course considering the amount of planning that they actually seem to have done I doubt anything like that was in any of their tiny minds.
So once again there are three possible outcomes. A massive fed force arrests all at once anyone not within the confines and then attacks the sanctuary. They wait and arrest them as it is convenient. They do nothing and all of you complaining are 100% correct. The first, from a LE tactical standpoint risks injuries on both sides. The second just pisses us off. The third should and will have a huge political backlash. But so will the first.
Soylent Green
Do not assault the compound. This is not a hostage situation.
Arrest the people showing up in town. Then block the roads and shut the rest in. Stop allowing them to reinforce or resupply. Turn off their power and water and internet access. Then wait as long as it takes. One by one, they will emerge, cold and hungry and defeated, hands in the air. If any come out shooting, shoot back.
I think at least one of them intends to commit suicide by cop. The rest are delusional, but they are not crazy, and they will surrender.
Is there a better alternative?
Peale
And people think the government was capable of rescuing the ambassador in Benghazi for some reason.
Mike J
@amk:
One was arrested in Auburn, WA.
BruceFromOhio
Idaho Officials: This is OUR LAND, and we are TAKING IT BACK.
(Later: A wildfire due to poor forestry management.)
Idaho Officials: Help! Help!
Nate
The two accounts that claim birders are massing to retake the refuge are both the same. It’s also plainly satire.
Kay
@Ruckus:
Sorry, Ruckus but you keep saying I want “heavy trigger fingers”. I feel like you’re really reaching to find hypocrisy here- that I want these people gunned down but don’t want 12 year olds shot.
This has nothing to do with police shootings. Nothing. I never objected to police arresting people for stealing property and damaging that which doesn’t belong to them.
Alternatively, I’ll accept this new “no arrest” standard if it’s applied to everyone.
What I don’t accept is laws applied selectively. Across the board. I’m opposed to that.
When they walk off the property to go grocery shopping I think they should be arrested, based on the photos they took of themselves stealing property and tearing down a fence.
Snarki, child of Loki
They ask for “Any Canned Foods”, so it’s now tot legit to open a can of whup-ass on them.
kc
@beltane:
Same.
Robert M.
@Belafon: In the linked video, Ritzheimer criticizes people for spending all their money on hate and hate and hate…
…WHILE STANDING IN A FEDERAL BUILDING HE’S OCCUPYING BY ARMED FORCE.
If irony wasn’t already dead, it is now.
Ruckus
@Kay:
No Kay I was not suggesting that you wanted them shot. I think I was pretty clear that I don’t want them shot either and that what I’ve been trying to explain is that shooting is what our police in general seem to do all the time, as I called it, shoot first, and walk away. Should be shoot first and strut away. What they should do is try to defuse a situation, not make it worse. And the way this is being handled is one way to do that. Should this be the way most things are handled? Absolutely. And I think I made that point as well.
What I was doing in asking you if you wanted them shot was to make the point that there aren’t too many ways to handle this type of situation of heavily armed morons without it very likely escalating into a firefight. Is this infuriating to watch that these morons are getting away with breaking the law and making the feds look sheepish? Sure. Is it infuriating that these white guys are able to do all this while black kids get shot? Absolutely. What I want is that law enforcement is not normally shoot first. And as I said this is what that looks like, especially with heavily armed morons strutting around. There really are 3 choices as I laid out above and none of them will satisfy large groups of people.
I’m sorry that you took my comments as directly aimed at you but my point was also to get people who want some sort of action to see that this is about it, without escalating to a firefight. And this may escalate anyway, after all these are morons we are talking about, one or more of them may decide that they aren’t getting what they want and do something far stupider than they already have. But this is what law enforcement is supposed to do, wait out and defuse a situation, exactly the opposite of what happens every day in this county, multiple times per day. Situations that are nothings don’t escalate they go right to the death penalty. Especially if you are black.
El Caganer
Fuck it. I’m getting a couple of my bros from the taproom, grab Dad’s old shotgun and a couple cases of Yuengling and take over Independence Hall. Tell everybody we’re charging admission to support the Philly Phreedumb Militia. Our only non-negotiable demand: SEND SNACKS!
The Other Chuck
@Ruckus: I’ll give the cops a pass on those 1138 people. That is, assuming they too were members of an organized armed gang in the midst of an armed takeover. What, you say none were? Why, it’s almost as if a different standard might have to apply.
Right wing motherfuckers want to live by the sword, I say they can die by it.
Beasely
@benw: Gaming supplies?
Peter VE
@Soylent Green: Exactly. Except: don’t let any leave until they all walk out in single file, hands on the back of their necks.
Bill
@Soylent Green:
This. Exactly this.
a different chris
@Ruckus: Every flavor of law enforcement all across the country, who knows how many times every day, somehow manage to arrest angry, armed criminals without serious incident (well, at least the white ones). If they can’t come up with a way to arrest these morons then we’re in truly deep shit.
I’m just confused. What makes these guys un-arrestable? They have some kind of superpowers that ordinary bad guys with guns don’t? What’s the secret? What am I missing?
If the Feds had quietly picked off one by one the idiots involved in the original insurrection at the old man’s ranch, and confiscated property in lieu of the unpaid grazing fees, and the moocher’s cattle had been evicted from public lands, or if they had done anything at all, then I wouldn’t be so pessimistic now. They did nothing then, done nothing since then, and it appears now they’re doing more nothing. Show me some evidence that it will be dealt with this time, because I don’t see any.
I don’t want the ‘compound’ stormed and firebombed. Pick them up in twos and threes as they leave to go get snacks. Yes they will be armed. The FBI doesn’t know how to arrest three guys with guns in a pickup truck? Really?
feebog
I must confess that at this point, going into day 10, I don’t know what to think. I appreciate that the Feds do not want this to turn into a bloody standoff, that is exactly what these morons want. But, one would think that a week would be enough to put assets in place to at least stop any coming and going from the Sanctuary. As for arresting these boobs when they come into town, let’s remember that they are armed, and trying to take them down in aisle three of the Burns Safeway may not be in the interest of public safety. Also, how hard can it be to shut down the power to the Sanctuary? I read one story a few days ago that shutting down the power would affect several ranches in the area, but really, there isn’t someone who can figure out how to isolate the Sanctuary and shut down the power to just those buildings?
Maybe all these things are in the planning stage and we just don’t know it. It is significant that there have been no interviews given by the Feds; they are being very tight lipped. I don’t think most people have a real feeling for the logistical problems that this isolated area creates, so this may still be a case of staging and deploying manpower more than anything else.
Heliopause
@feebog:
One of the problems a lot of us are having is that if the federal government is not indifferent to this situation they sure are doing a good job of pretending to be. Not saying give away the secret plans, not saying make incendiary statements, but, Jesus, say something. A federal facility has been seized and an entire county is unable to live normal daily life. At least give us a vague idea of what your thinking is on this, because after events at the Bundy ranch we’re really starting to wonder.
El Caganer
@Heliopause: Well, the feds did say something – they initially said it was a ‘local law enforcement’ problem. Seeing that ‘local law enforcement’ doesn’t have jurisdiction over a federal facility, I’m not sure how this is supposed to work.
Heliopause
@El Caganer:
Exactly. And I’ve been assuming that the feds secretly do see it as more than a “local law enforcement matter” because Harney County obviously has no capability of dealing with scores of armed whackos showing up from all parts of the country, they need outside help. Read this statement from Sheriff Ward.
a different chris
@feebog:
They aren’t super-villains with magical powers no branch of law enforcement is capable of dealing with. And they don’t have a Star Trek teleporter, they get to the Burns Safeway by driving a vehicle over public roads. Are there any other kinds of criminals that are too dangerous to arrest?
I don’t know which would be more disturbing: that FBI/whoever do not have any way of arresting them, or that they don’t want to. Either way…