Hard to pick a favorite Bowie song, but I think this one is mine:
“Guardians of the Galaxy” introduced it to a new generation, which is a good thing. We’ve already got a David Bowie tribute thread below, so this isn’t another one. It’s just a regular old open thread.
But the news of Bowie’s passing knocked me over this morning. There are some people you just can’t imagine the world without; he is one of them. Was. Damn.
rikyrah
Juan Williams: Angry white women
By Juan Williams – 01/11/16 06:00 AM EST
Who knew white women had become so angry?
The anger animating the divide between the GOP establishment and the GOP grassroots is always presented in terms of angry white men.
It is impossible to ignore, as The Washington Post’s Jennifer Rubin noted last week, that Republican media and political culture these days, both in Congress and on the campaign trail, is “perpetually angry.”
But a new poll shows that white women are the angriest of angry voters.
The NBC News/Esquire magazine poll, conducted with Survey Monkey, found 54 percent of white Americans have been getting angrier over current events during the past year.
That is far higher than the 43 percent of Latinos and 33 percent of black Americans who say the last year of political, economic and cultural events have left them feeling angry. In fact, 73 percent of whites (compared to 66 percent of Hispanics and 56 percent of blacks) say they get angry “at least once per day.”
And the angriest white people are white women.
Fifty-eight percent of white women say they are angrier right now than a year ago. Only 51 percent of white men say the same thing, as do just 44 percent of non-white women and 32 percent of non-white men.
rikyrah
Modern Love is one of my favs.
Emma
I just watched the Lazarus video. I’m still in shock.
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: From the link:
There’s that number again.
SiubhanDuinne
@rikyrah:
Heh.
Edit: shakes fist in Betty’s general direction.
geg6
@rikyrah:
I know I’m pretty fucking angry and the whitest of white. But I’m not angry about any of the things my Republican counterparts are really angry about. The opposite, in fact. And I’m pretty angry at all the people who look like me and who are in my own socioeconomic band but who vote for those who would have them living under an overpass if that meant taxes could be lowered on corporations and the 1%.
gvg
angry at what? I am getting angrier by the day at the misogynist GOP and the open racists running for office and mouthing off in public. My prospects for retirement get bleaker too. it probably breaks down into several subsets.
Sometimes I really notice my disconnect with popular culture. I never really “got” Bowie. Don’t dislike him, just lukewarm. I noticed a long time ago that many people I like really liked him though, but it’s an odd feeling to watch while others talk.
Satby
@Betty Cracker: Juan Williams, Foxbot.
ruemara
Just painful to know he’s gone.
joes527
@geg6:
You misunderstand the modern republican.
Punishing the poors is an end, not a means. The fact that they can get tax cuts out of it is just gravy.
WereBear
Not to me. They struggle daily with everything else we liberal women do… plus a lot more.
Satby
@geg6: @gvg: Well, I also am an angry white woman, and the disgust and rage I have had for basically all members of the Republican party continues to grow. Try explaining to two young women from other countries the bill passed and sent to the President’s desk repealing the ACA, which would leave 17 million citizens without access to health care and certainly be a death sentence for many without becoming enraged.
“White women” are no more of a monolithic block of voters than any other subset. And “angry” voters this year run the gamet from far right to far left. No new insights were in that article.
WereBear
@gvg: That is sad, but it’s never too late.
Felonius Monk
ABC News is apparently working for The Donald now. They have severed their relationship with the UnionLeader newspaper in NH because the UnionLeader doesn’t like Trump. These debates are a colossal joke. And have I mentioned lately that Trump is an asshole.
Villago Delenda Est
When I was in fourth grade, I couldn’t imagine a world without the Beatles.
Punchy
With all due respect….really? Bowie is in that category? I envision Jaggar, Jimmy Buffett, Neil Diamond…certainly Sprinsteen, Mellencamp, and Chuck D in that category. But Bowie, as off-radar as he’s been lately? Just doesn’t shock me as much of those others. Generational, surely.
WereBear
@Felonius Monk: Gosh, I remember when the News was one of the ways the networks gave back for their use of the public airwaves.
Generations now have grown up not even knowing what has been stolen from them.
Germy
I remember David Bowie’s glorious sense of humor. Does anyone remember this? He spontaneously composes a song inspired by the sheer awfulness of Ricky Gervais…
kindness
I was in High School then. I loved Glitter Rock. Not only was it hard ass rock but theatrical too. My Deadhead friends thought I was nuts. See, I allowed myself to like all kinds of music (the Dead included). Too many of my friends did not see things that way.
Don’t have a favorite Bowie song. Ziggy & Aladdin Sane were my favorite albums of his though.
Gin & Tonic
@WereBear: In the history of the press in the US, that brief period of seemingly objective news, say, from Murrow to Cronkite was an anomaly.
Betty Cracker
@Punchy: Apparently tastes and attachments vary a great deal among individuals. For example, of the irreplaceable dudes you mention, only one’s theoretical passing would give me the slightest pause as a cultural phenomenon. (As a human being, I’d be saddened to hear that any of them had died, of course, but no sadder than I’d be to read that a nearby toll-taker had died.)
beltane
Binge listening to Station to Station, Low, and Heroes is my routine on long car rides. I am just in shock right now.
beltane
@Betty Cracker: I did not realize that a few of those people on Punchy’s list are still among the living.
Emma
@Punchy: Mellencamp? Jimmy Buffett? Neil freaking Diamond? Really? YMMV is never more true than in music.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gin & Tonic: Alas, it does seem that way.
Lamh36
my youngest sister Jessica loved the movie Labryinth…so she knew Bowie from that movie
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Gin & Tonic: I’d be fine with un-objective news if the outlets would own it. At the Washington Post, Greg Sargent’s work is tagged as liberal– and I guess he does do at least as much analysis as reporting– but Dave Weigel, proud Paulite, pro-lifer and Benghazi truther, currently flogging the Juanita Broaddrick story several times a day on twitter, is just presented as a straight reporter.
Another living pet peeve of mine: Andrea Mitchell. Probably considered and considers herself a liberal, and on foreign policy she’s as just about as neocon anybody writing for the Hyatt-Lane stable. Well, maybe not Krauthammer. Her trolling of the Obama administration on Syria and the Iran deal was atrocious.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: and speaking of the Iran deal
Doug!
Great choice! That may be my favorite too.
ruemara
I hate that people need to show up, just to point out that so and so never meant much to them. That’s nice. Why should we know if we just want to remember someone who was special to us? Are we supposed to go, “wow, now that you’ve elucidated your distaste, I’m ashamed and will now renounce what I’ve loved. Thank you for this clarifying moment.”
It’s perfectly alright to say nothing.
elmo
White – check.
Female – check.
Current politics makes me so angry my eyes bleed – check.
Chris
Hell, yes.
The GOTG soundtrack was my jam for most of the last year, where I had to keep taking five-hour road trips from St. Augustine (where I was now based) to Miami (where I still had a master’s to complete) throughout the summer and fall and needing good music to stay awake. Yes, I’ve kind of gotten tired of it by now, but it’s notable that it took the better part of a year for that to happen.
sharl
@ruemara:
Co-sign! Silence: the option not selected nearly often enough!
{Counter-point: this would be a verrrry different place…}
gogol's wife
@ruemara:
I tried to make this point on the thread below but was rebuked.
SFAW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Clearly that news is fake, put out there by the Mooslim Usurper’s minions.
And, curiously, the
BlackWhite House is silent on the possibility of the Iranians constructing suitcase devices using weapons-grade concrete. Why is that? Could it be that they’re in league with them?President Trump will put a stop to that!
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: I wonder if this is like the “how do you feel about the affordable care act” polls. Some of the people who didn’t like it thought it didn’t go far enough.
Is it possible to see what is going on in the world and NOT get angry at least once a day? Hell, I end up saying “what the fuck is wrong with these people?” at least once a day just reading about current events from BJ.
I would like to see the poll that asks what we get angry about.
Chris
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
There’s a fair amount of crossover between “Wilsonian/liberal internationalist” and “neocon.” Not that those are the same things, but starting off as the former and then being brought to agree and identify with the latter is a thing.
(Actually, wasn’t this one of the roots of the neocon movement in the first place? People who identified with the Democrats’ hardcore foreign policy leadership in World War Two, then got disappointed when subsequent Democrats didn’t face the problems of the Cold War in exactly the same way [because those were substantially different problems] and decided that the McCarthyite/John Bircher howler monkeys in the GOP were the new true home of Team Strong Foreign Policy?)
Diana
I think Bowie was more popular among women and gay men than straight guys — he was something other than good ol’ fashioned rock n’ roll. In high school 1978-1982, the three most popular albums among the pre-punk bad girls were Bowie’s Changes, the Worst of Jefferson Airplane, and Jimmy Cliff’s the Harder They Come. My general sense was the counter-culture was kinda mainstream in the 70’s and only hardened into rebellion in the 80’s.
FlyingToaster (Tablet)
I have to drive in Boston-area traffic every morning, so I’m automatically angry.
I got WarriorGirl started on a number of subjects (YouTube, Space Exploration, Glam Rock) with Chris Hadfield’s version of “Space Oddity”. Bowie will be missed.
Lamh36
In 1983, David Bowie confronted MTV for refusing to play black artists’ videos
Punchy
@Emma: Forever in blue jeans, my friend. Blue jeans.
geg6
@Punchy:
Jagger and Springsteen would rock my world also. But the rest aren’t fit to kiss Bowie’s shoes. And I actually like a few of them quite a bit.
Mary G
Oh, what an awful thing to wake up to. I remember dragging a boyfriend to see Bowie at the Santa Monica Civic in the early 70s. He was horrified by the crowd and wanted to leave before the show started. After it was over he made me go to Tower Records so he could get the Ziggy Stardust album.
BubbaDave
Since it’s an open thread, I’d like to plug the whitehouse.gov petition for law enforcement action against Vanilla ISIS. Right now it has fewer than 1,000 signatures while another petition asking for the Hammonds’ release from prison has over 11,000.
Diana
posting just because I think this shows a bit of how Bowie’s rock & roll felt in the fact of the Greatest Generation (also showcases how excellent a musician Bowie really was):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_ReMi7tVWA
The Thin Black Duke
@ruemara: Thank you.
Matt McIrvin
@Diana: And yet, he could also do straight-ahead guitar rock with the best of them. That was the thing that really struck me when I finally heard a bunch of his Sixties/Seventies stuff; it rocked hard.
Seanly
Life on Mars
Sad to hear about David Bowie’s passing.
My buddies & I used Life on Mars as the outro to a silly little movie we made in the late 80’s.
Face
@BubbaDave: 101st Chairborne is weak in physical strength, but strong in numbers and unemployment status.
ed_finnerty
saw jake tapper interviewing Ted Cruz on the Cruz bus
1. He sounds reasonable one on one even though anyone with any knowledge of the issues knows his arguements are all based on false premises
2. If nominated he will be running in the general on two planks, repeal obamacare and implement a flat tax;
3. He looks a bit like nixon
geg6
@Mary G:
Yup, Bowie was one of my first concerts. It was at the old Stanley Theater (now the Benedum Center) in late ’72, a birthday gift. Hadn’t really known much about him at that point other than a few songs. It was me, my best friend, and five guys who were in a band that we followed and hung out with. Blew our minds. Just blew our minds completely. There was nothing else out there like that back in ’72. Nothing.
Matt McIrvin
@ruemara: I did like the guy I followed on G+ who complained that the news of the death of Angus Scrimm from “Phantasm” was sort of buried.
benw
@Face: I’m exhausted from clicking ‘like’ on various right-wing Facebook screeds and conspiracy theories.
HELP PLEASE SEND SNACKS AND GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE CHECKS
Matt McIrvin
@ed_finnerty:
The usual comparison is to Joe McCarthy; there’s a definite physical resemblance there.
Face
@ed_finnerty: If he wins, it means the Senate has undoubtly remained in GOP control. At that point, repealing Obamacare would take all of 2 votes, 1 penstroke, totaling all of 8 minutes of an late January 2017 morning.
Honestly, I think a flat tax would actually destroy the US much faster than Obamacare repeal. So much retail would go underground/black market, as the middle class gets completely wiped out and the poors simply give up.
Eric U.
@joes527: if punishing the poors was in any way rational, they wouldn’t want to do it. Every time a Republican gets into the White House and follows through on policies that do that, the economy tanks. This hurts the bottom line of everyone but the 0.1%, and even they are paying a price. But they like the fact that none of “their money” is going to the undeserving.
ed_finnerty
@Face: also his voice wasn’t as irritating – I think he is working to address this
JasonF
I saw a note on Twitter. It was actually posted yesterday, before Bowie died. It simply read: If you’re ever sad, think about the fact that the Earth is billions of years old and you’re alive at the same time as David Bowie.
Think about it. Thousands of years of civilization, hundreds of thousands of years of human beings, billions of years of life on Earth. We only get to experience the most miniscule slice of it. And your miniscule slice overlapped with David Bowie.
Leonardo DaVinci never experienced David Bowie. George Washington never experienced David Bowie. Genghis Khan carved out one of the largest empires the world has ever known but he never got to experience David Bowie.
And the people of the future — the kids being born today, or next week, or next year, or a thousand years from now — they will get to experience David Bowie, but not the way we did. They won’t get to see him reinvent himself, and reinvent music, time and again. They won’t get to wonder what he will do next. They won’t get to hear a new Bowie album and listen to something entirely unlike what he had done before.
In many ways, the natural order of the universe is for there to be no David Bowie. What an immense privilege to have been herre for the brief period when that wasn’t the case.
Diana
@JasonF: amen!!!
The Other Chuck
@Chris: Yowza. There are some good songs on the GotG soundtrack, sure, but I’m going to visit the homicidal stabbies on someone with an ice cream scoop if they ever make me listen to “Hooked on a Feeling” again.
eldorado
@Diana: those were the girls in high school i really wanted to date, but could never interest them
rikyrah
Latest polls send shudders through Republican establishment
01/11/16 08:40 AM
By Steve Benen
The Iowa caucuses are just three weeks from today, and the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal/Marist poll, released over the weekend, offers little hope to the Republican establishment, waiting for its presidential nominating race to change. Here are the latest preferences from Hawkeye State Republicans:
1. Ted Cruz: 28%
2. Donald Trump: 24%
3. Marco Rubio: 13%
4. Ben Carson: 11%
The remaining candidates are each at 5% or lower. The results are very similar to the findings from the latest Fox News poll, released late Friday, which found Cruz leading Trump in Iowa, 27% to 23%, followed by Rubio at 15%.
To be sure, conditions can change over the course of three weeks – the GOP candidates will participate in two more debates between now and Feb. 1 – but the polling in Iowa has been fairly steady since early December, and Republican insiders eager to see Cruz and/or Trump falter have reason to feel anxious. Indeed, both major polls show the top two with at least 50% of the vote.
The picture in New Hampshire is noticably different:
1. Donald Trump: 30%
2. Marco Rubio: 14%
3. Chris Christie: 12%
4. Ted Cruz: 10%
5. Jeb Bush: 9%
5. John Kasich: 9%
As with Iowa, the remaining candidates are each at 5% or lower.
SFAW
@The Other Chuck:
You just need to hear the original version to get over that sentiment.
Mnemosyne
@Lamh36:
From my favorite B’way playwright’s Twitter feed today:
SFAW
@JasonF:
You forgot Jesus.
Although, based on this comment, apparently that would mean He had to experience Himself. (In person, that is.)
Brachiator
@Lamh36:
In return, Bowie on Soul Train is a trip….
Fame
PaulW
there’s a quote floating on Twitter that’s apt:
https://twitter.com/JamilSmith/status/686448215873458177
“I didn’t know I’d be crying over Bowie, but here we are. It’s the people that give you the permission to be weird who you miss the most.”
ed_finnerty
@rikyrah: what would you say is the over/under for Jeb? quitting after new hampshire
1. by position (i.e. 4th or lower), or
2. by vote share (i.e. less than 10%)
Brachiator
@rikyrah:
For me, the fun question is what will it take to get Jeb! to give up and retire from the campaign. That’s how much I dislike the Bushes.
dlw32
The Man Who Sold the World.
That entire album changed my view of music at the time… I think I was barely a teen when I first heard it. Nothing like it on the crappy radio station we suffered with…
SiubhanDuinne
Have finally made it to the theatre to see “The Big Short,” which I was asking about the other day. Yay for weekdays with no crowds!
SFAW
Just responded to a survey request from the DNC (or DWS), re: my priorities for 2016. Under “Other,” I wrote something about getting DWS to resign immediately.
Am I a bad person for doing that? Well, let me re-phrase: does it make me even more of a bad person for doing that?
rikyrah
Michigan’s Snyder facing nation’s most serious scandal
01/11/16 08:00 AM—UPDATED 01/11/16 01:04 PM
By Steve Benen
As regular viewers know, The Rachel Maddow Show has devoted a great deal of time to the water crisis in Flint, Michigan, but if you haven’t been focused on this scandal yet, it’s important to get up to speed.
Over the weekend, for example, the editorial board of the Detroit Free Press turned its attention directly to Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder (R), who’s facing calls for his arrest from protestors, comparing his handling of the Flint crisis to George W. Bush’s handling of Hurricane Katrina.
Right now, the State of Michigan should be able to say that it has ensured the delivery of bottled water and water filters to every Flint resident whose drinking water has been contaminated by lead…. Instead, the governor is offering placid responses and slow-walking important remedies, while the investigation into how one of Michigan’s greatest man-made public health crises unfolded comes up with explanations in dribs and drabs.
It’s not just derelict – it invokes inglorious comparison to other callous and insensitive official responses to tragedy. Think of the shameful federal response to Hurricane Katrina, where the same lack of urgency delayed life-saving aid. The poverty rate in Flint is 40%; 52% of Flint residents are African-American. And so we are prompted to ask: How would the state have responded to a crisis of such proportions in a community with more wealth and power?
Of course, there’s a key, heartbreaking difference between recent developments in Flint and the crisis in New Orleans in 2005: Katrina was a natural disaster; Flint’s disaster was the result of public officials showing breathtakingly bad judgment.
Let’s recap how we reached this point.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
Kooks
rikyrah
How to help Flint, Michigan
01/08/16 06:39 PM—UPDATED 01/10/16 11:59 PM
Since we started covering the crisis in Flint, Michigan, where the drinking water has been poisoned with lead, we have received many calls from our viewers about how they can help.
The situation on the ground now is that many people still do not have filters to protect themselves from lead in their tap water. As we reported last night, there is no government-run program for giving bottled water to people who cannot afford to buy it. If you need water in Flint right now, your best choice is turning to one of the local nonprofits that are giving it away. At this point, those nonprofits are running solely on donations.
And that is where you come in. We talked to several of these Flint nonprofits today, and they broke it down for us like this:
1) If you have a truck full of water, you can take it directly to The Food Bank of Eastern Michigan, which is serving as a central distribution point.
2) If you have a case of water, you can take it to one of three soup kitchens run by Catholic Charities:
Center for Hope, 901 Chippewa Street, Flint, MI 48503
North End Soup Kitchen 735 E. Stewart Ave, Flint, MI 48505
Owosso Community Closet and Food Pantry 120 W. Exchange St., Ste. 300 Owosso, MI 48867
Catholic Charities also accepts donations online.
SFAW
@rikyrah:
Bad judgment? Is that kind of like the Boston Glob saying that Chicago “botched” the handling of the Laquan McDonald killing?
I fervently await other examples of “bad judgment.” I imagine there would be some common thread running through them, not sure what it could be.
Iowa Old Lady
@SiubhanDuinne: I loved the way they broke the fourth wall in that! Otherwise, it was infuriating.
Miss Bianca
@rikyrah:
I know I am angry, and whitest of white, etc.etc. Right now, tho’, I think I’m angriest at my fellow white Western state residents who rail against the federal government. Particularly those who think that their lifestyles are under attack. People who support that family up in Oregon, for example. And while I sort of get where they are coming from, thinking that liberal elitist types like me are attacking ranching as a way of life, all I can think of this:
The Federal government has been working ever since the Lewis and Clark expedition to make the Western states safe and habitable for white people. From kicking out and exterminating the original inhabitants of the land, to the Homestead Act, to railroads, rural electrification, highway systems, ranching and farm subsidies, subsidies for mineral, oil, and coal extraction, predator extermination programs, and grazing rights on federal land – you name it, if you live in the West you suck on the Federal teat. But no…we’re bootstrappers out here. Rugged individualists. The Government just gets in our way, what with their guidelines for federal land use, which includes habitat for non-human, non-bovine species. Bottom line: if government helps and keeps helping white people whose ancestors were lucky enough to be able to grab land that was taken from the Indians, great. The minute the government decides to recognize the interests of any other group, be it wolves or spotted owls or quiet-use hikers, the Government Sucks.
We’re like a bunch of teenagers out here, yelling at the feds: “I hate you! I hope you die! Oh, by the way, where’s my allowance?”
Haven’t been following the news, but when I tuned into Radio Paradise this morning and heard all the David Bowie, I guessed. Sigh. I’d be hard-pressed to pick a favorite Bowie tune, but I know I’ll miss his presence on the planet.
rikyrah
From the Detroit Free Press:
Heck of a job, Governor
Detroit Free Press Editorial Board
12:09 a.m. EST January 10, 2016
Think of the shameful federal response to Hurricane Katrina, where the same lack of urgency delayed life-saving aid.
Governor Snyder: When are you going to turn your relentless, positive action toward assuaging the misery your administration has heaped upon the people of Flint?
Right now, the State of Michigan should be able to say that it has ensured the delivery of bottled water and water filters to every Flint resident whose drinking water has been contaminated by lead. Right now, the State of Michigan should be able to say it has taken the first steps to craft nutritional and educational interventions for lead-poisoned Flint kids. Right now, the State of Michigan should be able to say it is using funds made available by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to replace aging lead water service lines in Flint.
Instead, the governor is offering placid responses and slow-walking important remedies, while the investigation into how one of Michigan’s greatest man-made public health crises unfolded comes up with explanations in dribs and drabs.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
It looks like you can make donations directly to the Food Bank of Eastern Michigan on their website.
If you work for a Giant Evil Corporation like I do, check and see if they match donations — a lot of them do now.
Brachiator
@JasonF:
I feel the same way about Miles Davis.
This takes nothing away from Bowie. Probably some good comparisons to be made between the Thin White Duke and the Prince of Darkness.
Bill
I discovered Bowie during his reinvention as a suit wearing pop star. I was 14 in 1983 when he released Let’s Dance. I bought the cassette of what I thought was some cool new Brit on the music scene, only to soon discover this “newcomer” had release 14 albums. I ate them up.
When I heard the news this morning I was shocked for a minute, and then it dawned on me that we are about to have a stretch where this kind of news will be common. The great rock stars of the late 60’s and early 70’s are now in their late 60’s and early 70’s. We are going to be seeing a lot of obituaries in the coming decade.
It’s an easy choice, but this is still my fav Bowie tune:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXq5VvYAI1Q
Flukebucket
One of the best I have seen
Matt McIrvin
@Eric U.:
I’m not so sure it’s not rational. Sure, on paper, the rich lose money too. But they gain in power to buy services and control others, because there are more desperate people around. You can get better help when times are bad.
Up to the point where somebody chops your head off, and that’s actually more likely to happen when things are starting to improve (and rising expectations get disappointed).
Schlemazel
Listening to the radio in the car today & the guy kept saying “We lost David Bowie last night”. It was the way he said it though that made it annoying (and he said it 15 times). I wanted call him up and ask if they had tried looking for him.
They started playing some of his very earliest stuff, 1964-68. It was universally horrible and included a David Seville special with a chipmunk-like voice track on it Bowie was an influential performer but not in those days.
Mnemosyne
@Matt McIrvin:
I think you may have missed the point — it may be rational for the 0.1% to have the poor punished, but it’s not very rational for the working class to insist on it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: She’s also married to a Randite sack of shit.
trollhattan
@Emma:
I’m assuming crafty snark that’s off my Monday radar display, because most of the counter examples are too obviously dreck. (But, suspicious about why Mariah Carey was missing.)
I AM surprised at the depth and breadth of the response to Bowie’s passing. Did not know he was held that highly in regard around the globe, but the sheer amount of his output for nearly a half-century certainly earned the outpouring.
Amir Khalid
@Bill:
David Bowie’s passing came just a few days after Lemmy Kilmister’s. Very different men, these two, and very different artists; but each profoundly influential in his own way.
trollhattan
@SFAW:
Thank God I was nowhere near the coffee when reading that.
patroclus
Bowie was a huge icon but I’m not going to pretend that I loved his songs. What he was great at, though, was putting on a show that was almost always pathbreaking. He was far bigger in the U.K. than in the U.S. – I simply could never have a rational conversation with any British friends about him because they just loved him so much and idolized his every re-make (whereas Dylan’s re-makes were always contentious and engendered arguments). Even though none of his songs are in it, Velvet Goldmine was really a movie about him (Ziggy Stardust). One of my best friends from HS was a roadie for him during the late 70’s-early 80’s and he had a LOT of stories. RIP. The UK will be collectively in mourning for a long while.
SarahT
@Punchy: wrong.
raven
@Amir Khalid: I consider myself a rock and roller of the vintage type and I never heard of Lemmy until he died.
Mnemosyne
@patroclus:
I liked “Velvet Goldmine,” but it took Angela Bowie’s account of their failed marriage a bit more seriously than it deserved. (There’s a reason their son stopped talking to her years ago but remained close to his dad.)
The brief romance between Christian Bale and Ewan McGregor was very sweet, though.
Brachiator
@SFAW:
I guess I am out of the loop on this DWS thing.
What is it that you want that you are not getting with DWS in place?
Amir Khalid
@raven:
Lemmy was eulogised by many prominent rockers on both sides of the Atlantic this past week. I wasn’t too familiar with his work either, but his musical peers considered him a great artist, an archetypal rock’n’roller, and a mensch.
Ruckus
@SFAW:
No
I replied to an email of theirs once saying that I would not contribute to the DNC as long as she was in charge. They still send me emails asking for money. I still delete them.
SFAW
@trollhattan:
I can try to do a trigger warning next time, if you wish.
Poopyman
@SFAW: I got the email today, oh boy:
Try googling around on that, you might come up with something. I’m sure he could use the help. BTW, the email came from Blue America.
SFAW
@Brachiator:
A DNC with a clue? A better strategery than “I loves me some Hillary – why should I care about anything else?” Supporting candidates other than Blue Dogs and DLC acolytes. Not trying to do the thumb-on-the-scale thing against Bernie. (And, to be clear, I like Bernie, but I’m not a Bernbot or whatever they’re called. But DWS needs to stop playing that stupid game.)
A fifty-fucking-state strategy. Something, ANYTHING, to make me (and a host of others) think that we’re not going to keep losing House and Senate seats while she’s in place.
Ah, never mind, I guess I’m just whining. Or wishing for unicorns.
SFAW
@Poopyman:
Saw it earlier, was going to mention it here, figured I was late to the party, since Canova announced last Thursday.
Mike E
@patroclus: Philly’s adopted son, was Bowie…I knew a Diamond Dog there, and you can’t tell me hers and her fellow’s devotion paled in any comparison.
raven
@Amir Khalid: That’s what I gather.
catclub
@Miss Bianca:
What really irritates me is that if all that land had some private owner, it would MUCH worse for all the tenant ranchers. Is there some private landowner that is giving them a better rental deal? I seriously doubt it.
They just want practically free use and facilities provided.
Anoniminous
@srv:
Anybody who can read and understand polls knows Hillary Clinton has women locked up. She’ll do at least as good as Obama (+12 versus RomBot) and could easily tack a couple more percentages on.
Bill
@Amir Khalid: Indeed. The passing of those two men is linked in a very funny way in this piece:
http://thehardtimes.net/2016/01/11/god-finalizes-supergroup-lineup/
Brachiator
@SFAW:
For president or for other offices? You got specific candidates in mind, or do you think it the responsibility of DWS and others to cultivate acceptable candidates?
Is DWS supposed to be more fair to Bernie, give him more of a spotlight? Help him as much as she is helping HRC?
Again, where are the candidates? I keep reading various Balloon Juice commenters talking about progressive activists, but I don’t see any of these fantasy creatures actually running for office.
Patricia Kayden
@rikyrah: From the article cited: “On immigration, for example, the issue that boosted Trump to the lead in national polls, only 43 percent of whites agree that “immigrants strengthen our country,” according to the NBC News/Esquire poll. That is much lower than the 63 percent of blacks and the 73 percent of Hispanics who see the upside to immigration.”
That’s interesting since we are all immigrants, except Native Americans. I suppose whites don’t place themselves in the rank of immigrants who have strengthened this nation. /snark
Mike J
@Brachiator:
As good as Sanders is personally, his campaign is run by conspiracy nuts. *Everything* is proof that the man is trying to keep him down. Remember when his manager went on CNN and had to admit he’d made up the story about Hilary hacking Sanders? Then they complain that nobody takes them seriously.
Patricia Kayden
@SFAW: A President Trump would put a stop to the world. The fact that someone so inexperienced and bigoted could win would mean that we have entered a parallel dimension in some twilight zone. I’d have to leave the planet somehow.
Brachiator
@Anoniminous:
This is not necessarily true. And you have to consider married women and single women separately, maybe other demographics as well.
HRC is also going to have to do better with white men, who seem to be trending more conservative.
Not all states may show as wide a swing, but in the 2012 presidential election, Kansas was especially interesting. Exit polls indicated that 74 percent of white men voted for Romney, but only 54 percent of white women voted for the Republican candidate.
As I note, this is extreme, but suggests that in some states, HRC (and maybe even Bernie) may have to work gender as hard as other demographics.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: This week’s Economist, of all places, has a very good obit this week.
Mnemosyne
@Patricia Kayden:
I’m always shocked by how many of my fellow white people seem to think that their ancestors were somehow “better” immigrants than today’s. It doesn’t help that a lot of them have completely lost touch with their roots and would probably be surprised to find out that their “Johnson” ancestors were probably Scandanavian, not English.
Anoniminous
@Matt McIrvin:
The Crane Briton thesis.
SFAW
@Brachiator:
You’re absolutely spot-on correct. All I want is for DWS to support the candidates I PERSONALLY select for Congress, because only that will make me happy.
Although I should resist the urge to respond to your trolling, I’m bad at that, so:
Any election, but she should focus on Congress. She should keep her sorry ass out of the Presidential race, with respect to such idiocy as limiting the number of debates, because she (apparently) thinks Hills can’t handle debating Bern. The voter list thing was something that should have been handled better, but was not because of her proclivities – she turned a low-grade hack into front-page (anti-Dem) news.
We hear NOTHING of a 50-state strategy. She can’t even figure out which non-DLC Dems to send money to. (Well, actually she can: none.)
A number of people have pooh-poohed Dean’s 50-sate strategy, don’t recall whether you were one of those. But, I seem to remember it working a shitload better than DWS’s “Lemme see what I can do to help Hillary” clusterfuck.
I’m sure you will find all sorts of things to snipe at. Go for it.
ETA: Oh, and as far as “where are the candidates?”: If I were running the DNC, I’d have a fucking search committee, probably would require upwards of 100 people. Non-candidates (and former candidates and current lower-level office holders) DO get approached by Parties, asking them to run. DWS can’t do something like that?
Face
@SFAW: I think bad judgement is the feature, not the bug.
Anoniminous
@Brachiator:
Of course the nominee will have to work for it. But there’s nothing in the polling that indicates whoever it is … *cough* clinton *cough* … will lose a 2014 Obama state. The Dem candidate starts off with ~243 electoral college votes out of 270 to win. This is (most emphatically) NOT to say we can sit on our asses as we need to focus and GOTV for Senate and House races.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@Amir Khalid:
Most of the Lemmy adoration comes from metal heads and
hardcore punk rockers- the same people who will, ironically, mostly shrug their shoulders when Iggy Pop kicks the bucket. Why there’s something EXTRA RAWK about being photographed swigging Jack Daniels or Southern Comfort from the bottle is beyond me. I mean, it’s not the way Chuck Berry will be remembered- but then again, Chuck has a full catalog of songs known worldwide, while Lemmy had little more than Ace of Spades.
Anoniminous
@SFAW:
I hold zero respect for DWS and have “issues” with the DNC going back decades. There is a lot the national organizations could do to help out the state parties. At the same time, I submit, the state parties have to get off their asses and unfuck themselves. Which means people getting involved at the local and state level.
rikyrah
“David Bowie’s greatest gift as an artist and ostensible human being is that he made the pursuit of weirdness … beautiful.”
Tom&Lorenzo’s lovely tribute to David Bowie:
Brachiator
@Mike J:
I have to admit that I am taking Sanders less seriously.
SFAW
@Anoniminous:
Agreed.
Mnemosyne
Steve Jones is telling a story about stealing David Bowie’s microphone after one of the last “Ziggy Stardust” shows back when Jones was a thuggish teenage fan.
Matt McIrvin
@patroclus: I’ve never considered myself a Bowie super-fan, but I was just trying to think of the full list of Bowie songs I considered awesome and it just goes on forever, without even touching what an actual fan would call deep tracks. I guess it’s just because he kept at it for so long.
SiubhanDuinne
@Iowa Old Lady:
Infuriating because we all lived through it and know ow it played out.
I was chilled by the last word of the on-screen text. Especially in light of what’ sharpening in Flint, the Western drought, etc.
Extremely well done film, which I shall see again.
Matt McIrvin
@Anoniminous: Right now there isn’t any state-level general-election polling going on, so it’s hard to say. There is national-level general-election polling, but it’s strangely clumpy: over the past few weeks the frequency of it seemed to go down, maybe for the holidays, and I’ve noticed that whenever that happens some right-leaning operator (Fox, Gravis, “Morning Consult”) comes in with polls showing Trump or somebody crushing Clinton and the aggregates go haywire.
Brachiator
@Anoniminous:
I have not seen any state level polling, and I don’t know that I would trust any so early in the presidential campaign.
I think that HRC is a polarizing figure for some, and I also think that the country has to collectively decide that it wants a woman president as much as it had to collectively decide that it wanted a black president. Consequently, I think that Clinton will have to work hard to get the male vote, and the married woman vote among white voters. I think it very possible that she could lose Obama states. She is taking the right steps, but she will have to work harder to secure the Latino vote.
Brachiator
@SFAW:
Sweet Moses. Do you think I am trolling you when I do not even note a disagreement, but simply a clarification?
The debate thing I do find interesting, since the more debates I have seen the less I find Sanders compelling. But your mileage may vary. My major issue with the debates are that the questions are largely stupid; 1,000 debates would not make this any better or useful.
Not me. But I don’t see the Democrats using Obama’s 2008 strategy effectively either. But I don’t recall that Dean got more Democrats elected, and the larger issue has been GOP gerrymandering and a lack of compelling Democratic challengers. However, there could easily be aspects of the Dean strategy that I have not thought through, etc.
jharp
David Bowie live on the Dick Cavett show.
1984 and Young Americans.
Amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8TnXRBkYt8
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: IIRC, back in 2008, Clinton was much more popular with Latino voters than Obama was. I don’t know if that will make any difference in 2016, but if Latinos overwhelmingly preferred Clinton to Obama in 2008, there’s no reason to think she’ll need to work harder than he did to earn their votes. Especially since the GOP has gone full Tancredo.
PJ
@Amir Khalid: Motorhead had an influence on pretty much everyone who played some kind of heavy rock since about 1979 or so, in a similar way that the Ramones had an influence on everyone. But, like Bowie, Lemmy was also a unique larger-than-life personality, inimitable though often imitated.
Gin & Tonic
@Anoniminous: But there’s nothing in the polling that indicates whoever it is … *cough* clinton *cough* … will lose a 2014 Obama state.
The problem is there’s more “weakness” on the blue side than the red. Of the 2012 Romney states, only 4.5 had a margin less than 10%, while of the 2012 Obama states, 12 had a margin of less than 10%, including the 29-EV Florida, with a margin of less than 1%.
SFAW
@Brachiator:
If the shoe fits … You have been here long enough to have seen more than one comment (as in, more than 100. No, not all mine) extolling the “virtues” of DWS. In fact, mistermix had a post last week, dedicated to her legendary level of competence. You, in fact had a few comments on that thread. So, asking for “clarification” is an interesting way of putting it.
Although I was (formerly) in the “screw extra debates” camp, I think having more – but with someone intelligent (Moyers?) asking the questions – can only help the Dem brand. And part of DWS’s job should be to work hard get the debates done that way. As best as I can tell, her concern is that Hillary will lose primary votes, due to her playing-it-safe-in-extremis default position. Trump gets a ton of free publicity via the debates (not that he needs it), why can’t DWS figure out how to do that for the Dems?
Here is one assessment. Not definitive, I imagine, and it certainly doesn’t make Dean out to be Christ Reborn, but the Party did a shitload better when he was running things. Of course, on the negative side, Rahmbo didn’t like him.
PJ
@Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again): Popularity is not a measure of influence or artistic greatness – if it were, then the Kardashians would be the Western canon. Chuck Berry’s greatness is undeniable, but mostly based on a decade or so of recorded work. He had the good fortune to begin his career when, for the first time in history, many teenagers suddenly had disposable income and mass media which was open to new things could spread music across a continent. When Motorhead started, and over the course of their career, mass media has largely worked to exclude artists that don’t fit very tight playlists; Motorhead was just never going to get played on commercial radio in the US. Their music was spread by non-mainstream media, zines, college radio, and word of mouth. So it’s no surprise that more people know more Chuck Berry songs (or Neil Diamond songs, or whoever was in the top 40) than they do Motorhead songs. This is the fate of the non-mainstream artist (which may mean most artists in the future) – when, say, Ian MacKaye dies, there will be many people who will say, “who?”, and there will be many artists and fans who will view the music of Minor Threat and Fugazi as extremely influential on their life and work.
I don’t know why you think Iggy will get no respect when he died, because he certainly gets it now – everyone looks to the Stooges as the foundation of punk. Iggy is someone whose influence has reached everywhere from David Bowie to Carnival Cruise-goers. And at close to 70, he still gets up and puts on a show that would put most 20-somethings to shame.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
There is an apples to cranberries problem here, because Clinton only beat Obama in primary elections. The presidential election creates new paradigms.
But let’s take the California primary. Clinton won 62 percent of Latino men and 69 percent of Latino women, but in the general election, Obama did outstanding among ALL nonwhite voters (and Latino men voted 71 percent for Obama, Latino women 75 percent for Obama), generating a hope of a new America in which they could see themselves and their children becoming president.
And yes, Clinton’s appeal could be just as aspiring, but in a different way than Obama. But Clinton cannot blindly depend on Latino loyalty.
In short Clinton and the Democrats need to get a big Latino turnout and continue to give them a compelling reason to continue to support her, but somehow many Balloon Juicers want to depend primarily on Latino fear and loathing of Trump and assume that Latino support is a given.
BTW, if the GOP are not total fools, they will choose a Latino for the VP candidate. This might cause complications for Democrats.
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: Who are the “many Balloon Juicers” who believe Democrats should depend on fear and loathing of Trump and take Latino votes for granted? I certainly didn’t suggest that. My point was that Clinton has enjoyed long-term popularity with Latino voters and there’s no reason to think she’ll underperform in states that went for Obama. That is all. Christ.
gogiggs
@Punchy: You say “with all due respect”, but actual due respect would
have been to keep that to yourself.
Also, in what world are Neil Diamond, Bruce Springsteen and David Bowie not of the same generation?
Brachiator
@SFAW:
I really don’t care about DWS one way or another. So, yeah, I am asking for clarification because I don’t see what all the furor over her might be.
We disagree on the value of the debates. if there were more candidates, maybe (and if the candidates were interesting). But nobody in either party wants to see better questions and more informative debates. This has been the hard cold fact since the League of Women Voters threw in the towel. If you think that some other party leader would be more productive here, you are just ignoring history.
Sigh. The GOP grandees hate the kind of publicity that Trump is generating. It cannot be manufactured. And it is largely negative. You really want the equivalent of this from Democrats?
The stuff about 50 state strategy is exactly what I asked for, food for thought. Thanks.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
And this is exactly why I did not say that you were one of the people who thought this way. Christ indeed.
Clinton’s “I am your abuela campaign not only fell flat, but backfired horribly. She even helped create a neologism, “hispandering.” It is easy to lose long-term popularity with Latino voters with tone-deaf stuff like this.
And strictly speaking, her 2008 primary votes with respect to Latinos underperformed Obama’s results in the presidential election. So yeah, Hillary has to step up her game here.
Also, I think that you are conflating Bill Clinton’s long-term popularity with Latino voters with Hillary Clinton’s long-term popularity with Latino voters. There is overlap, but not an automatic carryover.
debbie
@Satby:
i hope you also told them they tried to pass the law 62 times. Now that’s angry-making.
debbie
@rikyrah:
NPR’s On Point had an hour on Flint today.
Absolutely appalling. There needs to be criminal charges.
Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)
@PJ:
Sorry, but I think this is little more than hagiography. I grew up in that fringe scene, I know people who can still differentiate a Cheetah Chrome Motherfuckers recording from an I Refuse It recording, and I don’t think that the people I saw mourning Lemmy’s death knew Motorhead from The Mentors in a stright-up listening test, only via photos and videos. Lemmy was the definitive icon- in its most widely accepted definition as a picture, image or other representation- of a desired lifestyle rather than a great artist.
And Iggy just doesn’t project that same image. Gold body paint, smearing peanut butter all over his chest…It’s not the same thing as being thought of as some devil-may-care, Harley ridin’ rocker. Doesn’t matter that Iggy’s ten, twenty, a hundred times more the artist than Lemmy ever was.
debbie
Sorry to have missed the Bowie threads earlier, so I’ll just talk to myself here. To me, Bowie was a modern-day Renaissance man, and he was lucky enough to be in a position where he could explore or participate in anything and everything he wanted.
And he was insatiable. I just came across an article about his 100 favorite books.
What a life he led!
Betty Cracker
@Brachiator: “Who are the many Balloon Juicers” is a question, not an accusation that you meant me. You made a statement about this community. I’m asking you to back it up. I don’t think you can.
Also, it’s pretty rich for the dude who said I was comparing apples to cranberries by referring to the head-to-head results of Clinton vs Obama in the 2008 primary to draw conclusions about their relative popularity from the general — when one of them wasn’t even on the ballot. That’s comparing golf balls to kumquats.
And I don’t know where you’re getting this conflation of Bill Clinton stuff — that was 20 years ago. No one gives a shit.
SFAW
@Brachiator:
If you don’t care one way or the other, then why bother asking? Especially since the “furor over her” has been discussed a goodly amount of times in the not-too-distant past, including mistermix’s post of last Wednesday, in which you seem to have participated.
All the electorate hears these days is (outside of Trump’s latest bloviation) how terrible the country is, how Obamacare is an abomination, how the Mooslim Usurper has made the US the laughing stock of the world, and so forth. Since there doesn’t seem to be any kind of coordinated effort to tell voters that the Rethugs are lying, seditious bastards, who would rather destroy the non-wealthy than just about anything else. If someone int he DNC had their shit together, a series of well-orchestrated debates would – I hope – help counter the Rethug BS.
See above. Publicity doesn’t have to fit the Trump-bloviation mold. Remember all the times Dem candidates ran from Obama and Obamacare? Why would I vote for Rethug-lite, outside of tribal instincts? So find a way to change the narrative or whatever you want to call it. Jim Webb is gone, so there’s no one to tell the electorate (during a debate) how bad the Dems are.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker: I made an observation, not an accusation. Why make more of this than was intended?
I fully considered your Clinton beats Obama statement, which only applied to primaries. Obama had higher levels of Latino support in the actual presidential election, which is what really matters. And this supports my larger point, that the Democrats need to get out the Latino vote, and that the level of achievement is what Obama got in the 2008 and 2012 presidential elections. How Clinton did in primary elections is not relevant.
SFAW
@Brachiator:
That’s kind of disingenuous. Latinos were not comparing Hillary to someone whose positions were antithetical to their (supposed) interests, they were comparing her to someone whose positions were similar to hers. Put her in the general, and she probably does at least as well as Obama.
Brachiator
@SFAW: I asked about DWS in case I was missing something important. Now I see that I am not.
I agree with you that the Democrats need to make a case for themselves, but the debates are not the best place for this. The Democrats don’t control the questions or the shape of the discussion.
Getting positive Trump style publicity is harder than you think. But I understand more why you are frustrated and may agree more than I might disagree. Hard to see a good solution so late into the game.
SFAW
@Brachiator:
As I wrote earlier, if you care not about DWS, then why should you care if you were missing something important?
You’re missing the point. The only publicity Hillary gets these days is Benghazi/e-mail, and the Bill/Monica thing. Bernie’s not getting a ton more. If they get a forum whereby they can say, in a not-quite-so-direct manner “The Republicans have almost destroyed the middle class — another four (or eight) years with them controlling all three branches, and the Great Depression will look like a picnic – followed by 20 percent of us having to relocate because of global warming.” That, and “They’re playing y’all for fools. They keep telling you that it’s those who are WORSE OFF THAN YOU are causing all your problems, when it’s really the ones with all the money and power that are screwing you.” Yeah, Fox News will scream, and Rupert and the Kochs will do a full-court press, but if the Dems don’t try, that’ll probably happen anyway.
ETA: And, to be clear: I used Trump’s name only because the lapdog MSM trumpet everything he says (so they can “tsk tsk” maybe, and feel all superior?) But if Hill and Bern (figuratively) shout the truth about the Rethugs, in debates, eventually it will get through.
Of course, DWS will schedule it for the same time as the Super Bowl.
Betty Cracker
@SFAW: Best of luck trying to get that point across. I’ve given up — not worth the effort.
SFAW
@Betty Cracker:
Yeah, you’re probably right.