As a former foster mom (of four Sudanese teenaged refugees aka “Lost Boys”), I know it’s possible to use the foster parent stipend to help pay your mortgage or other household expenses and still do right by the kids. But it’s not easy because the stipends are usually low. Ours barely covered food and other essentials, and many months we paid out-of-pocket for things like sports gear or a computer for homework. (And we were in Massachusetts, a generous state.)
Many people who view fostering as an income stream wind up shafting the kids.
Leave it to one of the Y’all Qaeda macho men to take things to a new low, however. Robert “LaVoy” Finicum and his wife have apparently fostered more than fifty boys over the past decade, many from “mental hospitals, drug rehabs and group homes for emotionally distressed youth.” Not only did he use the stipend to support himself, he also made them work on his ranch.
In my view this comes close to human trafficking. Sure, foster kids should do chores, but to use money that is supposed to support them to support yourself AND to use them as free labor on your ridiculous macho-man massively-government-subsidized nonstarter of an animal-exploitation business? NOPE.
More details will undoubtedly emerge, and perhaps they’ll cast a sunnier light on the situation. Perhaps Finicum paid the kids for their work. Or perhaps the ranch was a really wonderful experience compared with the institutions the kids came from. None of that changes the fact that these kids were vulnerable, and exploited. I wonder what else they could have been doing if they hadn’t been conscripted into the ranching business. Studying? Seeing a counselor or visiting with their sponsor? Getting some actual relevant-to-the-21st-century work experience?
Or, how about just plain goofing off and being kids?
Based on this quote alone I would be very surprised if any facts emerge that exonerate Finicum:
“[Fostering] was my main source of income,” Finicum said. “My ranch, well, the cows just cover the costs of the ranch. If this means rice and beans for the next few years, so be it. We’re going to stay the course.”
Sounds like every grieving parent I know!
Dickens himself couldn’t have created a better villain.
The mystery is why the child-welfare authorities in Finicum’s state of AZ acted now. My guess is that they noticed the media interest surrounding all things Y’all Qaeda and decided to act pre-emptively to avoid getting spotlighted. “Hey Marge, remember those homeless kids we keep giving to the rancher for free labor? Maybe we shouldn’t be doing that.”
Corner Stone
I wonder if eventually we’re going to find out there was an insider in the system who was essentially selling these human stipends to Finicum.
JCT
Terrible but not surprising story.
Assigning “insight” to any of the governmental agencies in my bizarre state is a fool’s errand.
State motto should be “Look out Mississippi, we’re coming for you!”
Bardi
Some Americans think it is okay to have slaves. That is a fact.
Kay
I love how he believes the federal government somehow intervened and stopped the referrals to his foster-ranch. He doesn’t know much about the foster care system if he thinks they’re running this tight, well-coordinated play by play with the federal government.
They got a call on the red phone- “remove those kids”. These people think they’re much more important than they are.
Kay
Also, the kids were placed thru a contractor- Catholic Charities. If he wants to know why the kids were removed he should ask the contractor.
They should also rename Catholic Charities and call it Catholic Contracting, because that’s what it is:
Betty Cracker
Theoretically, a foster home at a ranch or farm could be a great situation for kids. With that particular moron, not so much.
I wonder what percentage of foster parents cite the stipend as a primary source of income? It seems like a bad idea to accept as foster parents people who will depend on the stipend for the lion’s share of their income. But on the other hand, I have no idea how widespread that is or if it would otherwise be impossible to place most kids.
Hillary Rettig
@Corner Stone: this would surprise me not at all.
Mike J
Driving a truck? What makes ranching less 21st century, unless you prefer the march to bigger and bigger factory farms?
Boatboy_srq
@Kay: Reichwing truth: every good thing is a Blessing from Gun-Totin’ Capitalist Jeebus, and every bad thing is unGawdly unConstitooshunul gummint overreach.
TaMara (BHF)
Sounds like child labor to me. The orphan trains without the trains.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
It depends, though. They’re not choosing to be so isolated. If it’s a situation where they’re really stuck out there and wholly dependent on two people to get anywhere, it could make them way too vulnerable and trapped.
I’m more comfortable when there’s constant interaction with the outside world, because that’s eyes and ears and some outside adult they can turn to if the conditions are bad or there’s weird stuff going on.
gelfling545
@Kay: If the Federal government knows those kids exist except as a part of a number in a report (# of children in foster care in X County) I’d be outright amazed.
Hillary Rettig
@Betty Cracker: this is a tricky point. When the agency came to do our home visit, before qualifying us as foster parents, one of the things they checked for is whether we have working refrigerators, stoves, etc., in the house. So presumably some people apply who are really poor or otherwise unequipped to be parents.
There’s also a lot of religious pressure and exploitation. Two of our kids had an earlier foster home where the dad was some kind of preacher and they were required to attend church for twelve hours (!) every Sunday. Plus, the godly man never gave them house keys or anything else.
At the same time, I know there truly are some poor-but-kindly grandmas and grandpas out there (and others) who definitely need the check but will also do well by the kids.
One thing I left out is that our kids all had jobs outside the home. The kept some of their money for their own use but sent a vast amount home to Africa to help relatives. This money literally saved lives and put siblings (“the small boys”) through school. This could be another area where Finicum shafted the kids–by not giving them money he probably also made it impossible for them to help any loved ones they wanted to help.
Hillary Rettig
@Kay: yup, yup, and yup.
Hillary Rettig
@Mike J: any business that depends on govt handouts is a faux business. (And not just for grazing land but water subsidies.) I don’t want to derail this thread with a meat-versus-antimeat discussion, but I’m sure I’ll see you shortly in another thread. ;-)
Miss Bianca
Well, it’s back to a mythical 19th-century for a lot of these folks, so hey…why shouldn’t they be making money off the “Orphan Train”? That’s how they did it in the Good Old Days!
Having watched my sister work as a foster parent (yeah, I am calling it “work”), I say anyone who gets into it thinking it’s some sort of money-making proposition is a little bit messed-up in the head. It’s like thinking you’re going to make a lot money breeding puppies – um, no…not if you are DOING IT RIGHT, you’re not.
Hillary Rettig
@Kay: Plus the types of kids he was fostering would probably benefit from increased interaction with a wide range of functional kids and adults.
Kay
@gelfling545:
“Let’s check in on that rancher we don’t like, what was his name?”. They think they’re the center of the universe.
I wouldn’t put kids out in the middle of nowhere where they’re wholly dependent on just two adults. Ever. The more they’re out and about the better, as far as I’m concerned. AMPLE opportunity to see and be seen. We get the vast majority of reports of problems thru schools and neighbors and counselors and physicians- people outside the home who SEE the kids.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: That’s an excellent point.
@Hillary Rettig: Also great points. I don’t know anything about the foster care system except what I hear from a close friend who is an administrator working for a charitable concern that contracts with the state. I’d gathered from my conversations with her that no one goes into fostering to make money but that the money they do receive is often essential, i.e., they couldn’t foster without it.
Kay
@Hillary Rettig:
God, I’ll say. I hope they at least went to school. I feel like people romanticize working on farms or ranches. Hopefully Catholic Charities doesn’t allow people to use foster kids to staff their small business, but if it’s a “ranch” it’s okay I guess.
skeptonomist
@Hillary Rettig: Governments at all levels have always contracted out all kinds of things. And they have subsidized exploitation of public land for what is considered beneficial, whether it is obtaining metals, coal or other necessary things, or for growing things including meat. The hypocrisy in this case is coming from people who are getting their living from government, but complain when they don’t get everything they want.
coin operated
Can someone please explain to me why a Catholic organization…especially one that sounds like another private-sector government-teat-sucking organization…has any say in the lives of the weakest and most exploitable children in our society?
Actually…no…don’t bother. I was reading this post and came away thinking of a kiddie prostitution ring almost immediately. I need to go vomit now.
thebewilderness
It is possible that people do not know how common this is. I spent many years in the foster care system and can tell you that it is extremely common for people with large properties and no ethics to supplement their living this way. The state authorities absolutely do believe that the kids are better off being exploited than being institutionalized. The saddest part is that the children do most of the time too if the foster parents are not too abusive. We were expected to be grateful that they took us in. They usually gave us to understand that we cost much more to keep than the small stipend the state gave them.
debbie
By someone who whines he’s being exploited. The same word used so differently!
Mike J
@Hillary Rettig:
Cool, kill the trucking industry. It wouldn’t exist without government handouts.
Somehow I think your concern about displaced workers starts with deciding you don’t like something, and then deciding if you think these particular workers deserve to make a living or not. If you start with hating google,, you’re only a hop skip and a jump away from self driving cars must be evil, so you’ll protect people in driving jobs. If you hate meat, you can tell everybody in the agriculture business to go fuck themselves.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
CPS worker here. Foster parents are supposed to have a source of income (whether from employment or aid) to support themselves. The stipend is supposed to cover the expenses of raising kids, and honestly it’s barely enough for that. Rates are a bit higher if you have kids with special needs, but that’s to offset the costs of taking them to medical/psychiatric appointments, special diets, etc.
The bigger issue: this guy put himself in a situation where people are waving guns around and making threats against the government. Did he give any thought to how it might traumatize those kids to see what’s happening on TV right now, and how much worse it might get?
La Gata Gris
I think AZ CPS is pretty screwed up. Compared to some foster families in AZ, Finicum’s might be heaven – as recently as 3 years ago CPS was placing kids with Warren Jeff’s polygamist sect in Colorado City. Y’know, the one notorious for child labor, rampant sex abuse, and “Marrying” teenage girls to creepy old men. azcentral.com/news/politics/articles/20130111arizona-foster-children-polygamist-colorado-city.html
Kay
@debbie:
I love too how he’s literally NOT THERE and he expects to be paid. Twelve year old babysitters know they have to be physically present as a job requirement. He thought he could “provide foster care” while spending weeks away on his hobby.
Hillary Rettig
@Betty Cracker: >no one goes into fostering to make money but that the money they do receive is often essential, i.e., they couldn’t foster without it.
i think that’s exactly right.
the right reason to foster is because you love kids and want to help some out. that has to be the basis even if you do treat fostering as an income stream.
Corner Stone
@thebewilderness:
The stipend varies so hard to make an overarching generalization, I guess. But even if you do the minimum, taking care of a child is an expensive proposition.
Hillary Rettig
@Kay: great catch!
Hillary Rettig
@Mike J: good try, thanks for playing!
your point that I was overgeneralizing on govt subsidies is well taken, however, so thanks for pointing that out.
Hillary Rettig
@Tara the Antisocial Social Worker: thanks, that’s useful detail.
Corner Stone
@Kay: I love the whole “rice and beans” sacrifice mentality. You wouldn’t even be able to afford rice and beans without the government subsidizing your entire life!
debbie
@Kay:
He’s more deceptive than any welfare queen I’ve ever read about!
bemused
@Corner Stone:
In a previous thread, I chuckled when you described your 11 year old using deadpan questions on his Republican grandparents. That’s an excellent skill to have acquired at such a young age and I would love to be present when he uses it. You must have a hard time keeping a straight face.
Kay
@Hillary Rettig:
I don’t know the requirements for that state or that contractor, but I assume if they placed with two people and one of them takes off to go cut illegal roads thru a bird sanctuary with stolen equipment that wasn’t the deal- he’s supposed to be providing care.
Corner Stone
Are any of the moochers in the Oregon thing even self-sufficient? I think we will find out that every single person who took part in the break-in somehow depends for a majority of their livelihood from government sources. Loans, payments, subsidies, or outright safety net payments.
Kay
@Corner Stone:
I think we’re getting closer to solving the mystery of the Oregon stand-off. There seems to have been some pre-planning and cooperation that they can’t decide whether to admit or deny:
opiejeanne
@Corner Stone: I have been wondering the same, how many are getting money from the Feds for their businesses. We know the Bundy clan is, we know that Ammon got roughly half a million in loan(s) from the SBA.
Roger Moore
@Tara the Antisocial Social Worker:
He’s also leaving those kids with only one foster parent for an indefinite period. My guess is that when he and his wife signed up to be foster parents, the decision about whether they’d make good ones and how many kids they were allowed to foster was predicated on the belief that he’d be there to help out. If he runs off for an indefinite stay in Oregon, that’s no longer true, and his family’s ability to provide a good foster home has to be reevaluated.
scav
Has he started to complain that the cows aren’t being subsidized and/or provided by the evil evil government, while they graze for free on government land tended by his fostered workforce who couuld also maybe ideally be grazing off free govt foodstuffs, all the while asking for others to snd snacks via USPS during his Patrit Campout? Ah, rugged self sufficiency, the cowboy way of the ‘merkan west!
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: That’s a safe bet. Most people who actually support themselves wouldn’t be able to just go occupy a remote bird sanctuary indefinitely. Buncha fucking moochers!
Patricia Kayden
I suppose if Finicum had hurt any of the foster children, we would be hearing from those children right about now. It’s a little ironic that someone who rails against the government indirectly took so much money from the government (Catholic charities are mostly government funded).
Hillary Rettig
@skeptonomist: i wonder if anyone has analyzed the income sources of prominent conservatives, or teahadists. everyone one of them I know gets substantial government support.
Corner Stone
@bemused: He’s spent a lot of time around adults. And I have no problem keeping a straight face, I just lock in my deadfish expression. But he will ask grandpa something that if I said it, grandpa would just repeat his previous nonsensical answer but get louder each time until I tired of it. He can’t yell at his grandson for asking a question so he has no idea what to do. It can be delightful, especially when the 11 year old knows more about the question he’s asking than his target.
schrodinger's cat
I wouldn’t be surprised if all these so called freedom fighters turn out to be grifters out to fleece the rubes.
MomSense
@Hillary Rettig:
Two of my former students were foster then adopted Sudanese sisters (by adoption). I had them in my classes for about 6 years so I had time to see their transformation. Their mom was really amazing and absolutely not in it for the money. I can’t imagine thinking about children as income.
I still hear from them from time to time. We went through a lot when they were adjusting to a new home, school, language, etc.
slag
Thinking back to Tom Delay’s argument against abortion:
Inside the mind of a Republican is a scary place to be.
Corner Stone
@Hillary Rettig:
And most of the elected TP types use their position making/changing legislation to benefit themselves as well. Whether it’s real estate purchases that mysteriously appreciate 300% when a new highway is approved for construction nearby (hoocoodanode?), or govt subsidy changes that somehow make their “family” farm a few million dollars over a spread of years.
Corner Stone
@schrodinger’s cat: Books, the speech giving circuit, prayer breakfasts, small business grand opening appearances? I wonder how many “keys to the city” type sideshows these moochers will be awarded for facing down the ebil gubment.
Big R
@JCT: The Times ran a piece today about Mississippi’s foster system, which is, if anything, worse than this. Our system is about to placed into federal receivership.
MomSense
@schrodinger’s cat:
They get paid to pretend to be revolutionaries. It’s a complete grift.
Corner Stone
The thoughtfully provided free dildos are just a bonus. And what a bonus!
Mike J
BTW, the parliament debate on keeping Trump out of the UK is live on c span now. The show is listed as “Key Capitol Hill Hearings” in your on screen guide.
Kropadope
Perhaps we need some more of this.
Kudos to Hillary Clinton for raising awareness and ultimately striking an effective compromise that helped pass this into law. While undoubtedly this helped fund our over-burdened agencies and helped them focus on the welfare of the children, our occupationist friend from the OP makes it clear there’s a lot more work to be done here.
opiejeanne
@Roger Moore: Remember his whinge about needing to get back home to his cows last week? Not nearly so worried about the kids.
Roger Moore
@slag:
Especially if you suffer from claustrophobia.
jerri
@Kay: They got the call from the local Mormon bishop. This guy is a mormon.
bemused
@Corner Stone:
I love it. I almost feel sorry for Grampa. He can’t raise his voice and bluster his way through it as with adults. I imagine he can’t come up with any coherent answers either. Does Grampa catch on that a very smart 11 year old easily backs him into a corner?
ThresherK (GPad)
Not every day I have to decide if it’s an episode of Futurama or American Dad that better fits some idiot.
schrodinger's cat
@MomSense:The government seems to be handling them with kid gloves, unlike the suffragettes or satyagrahis from the last century who were dealt with extreme prejudice and the full force of the law.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
@Kropadope
Often it’s a hard call, because separating kids from their parents adds a whole new layer of trauma on top of whatever abuse and neglect they’ve already suffered. If there’s a way to keep kids with their parents and meet the minimal standard of safety, that’s the way to go.
But the worst thing we can do is jerk kids back and forth, send them home and pull them out again, shuffle them from one foster home to another. If they can’t have a stable, permanent home with their birth parents, then they need to have a stable, permanent home with someone else, without any false promises that they’ll be going back to the parents.
Baud
And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man in the moon
“When you coming home, dad?” “I don’t know when
But we’ll overthrow the government then
You know we’ll overthrow the government then.”
Kropadope
@Tara the Antisocial Social Worker:
Which again goes to funding and the opportunity to pay attention to detail. If we’re going to meet these children’s needs, we need enough case workers to spend enough time on the individual cases.
kc
What a fuckin’ moocher.
JCT
@Big R: Yes – that’s actually what I was referring to, that piece in the Times was so troubling.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
@Kropadope:
Amen amen amen amen amen!!!
GregB
@Kay: Is any member of the Committee for Safety charged with building guillotines?
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
@Baud: The fact that your song didn’t win a Grammy is proof of sinister interference by the Feds.
Hillary Rettig
@MomSense: that’s wonderful! how lucky those kids were not just in their mom but to have the same good teacher for 6 years.
Hillary Rettig
@Baud: good one, plus always bonus points for Harry Chapin!
schrodinger's cat
OT: Listening to the amazing score of Bajirao Mastani.
I so love the juxtaposition of the Sanskrit prayer to Vishnu and the Urdu prayer in Aaj Ibadat (today’s prayer) I would like to learn both those languages someday, so different yet so sweet and beautiful. I can understand some Sanskrit and Urdu mainly from the context and because I know other Indian languages but I have never really studied either formally.
Official video
Pandit Jasraj singing Bhagwan Vishnu mangalam
Kay
@GregB:
I think it’s self-aggrandizing that they named their group after Revolutionary War groups.
They have a really high opinion of themselves.
I’d have more respect for them if they said “we’re not making enough money to survive so we want to log and mine and feed our animals on this land we don’t own”. That I understand.
SFAW
@slag:
I’m not sure what everyone is getting all het up about.
When Mrs. SFAW and I were going through the adoption process, we were upfront in stating that we wanted a cheap source of labor (since family doesn’t need to get paid minimum wage), because we were tired of having to work on the homestead after we got home from our (professional) jobs, and a son would be just the ticket.
Now, if we could just get him to stop eating so much, we might break even. Of course, he’s almost college age, maybe I should start a GoFundMe page, tell people we’re sending him to Harvard when we’re really going to send him to Middlesex Community College, skim the difference for ourselves.
[It kinda sucks to consider that there may actually be people out there who think like that.]
laura
I’m surprised that no one’s made a connection between this grifter and the Midwestern local council grifter and their substandard housing filled to the rafters with foster children despite his wife’s oft stated comments about being overwhelmed with the burdens of childcare. Yeah, he only came to our collective attention on account of the criminal probe into his use of merciless beatings -to improve morale no doubt.
welfare queens -the fucking lot of em.
srv
Well, perhaps we need to rethink this unattended youth illegal immigration thing. Maybe we should let the kids in, and ship them off to the farms like they did in the old days. Win-win for everyone.
In fact, you could leave holes in the border wall just big enough for kids, but filter out the adults.
Corner Stone
@SFAW: Yeah, BGinCHI had his little one with the thought of getting some cheap labor round the house. That came as a rude surprise, so much so that he was forced to move to a sockulist Norse country to just break even by mooching off others hard work and contributions to a mutually beneficial society.
Geeno
@srv: That’s a million dollar idea – get copy right on it so the Donald doesn’t steal it.
Emily68
I wonder if there are heaps of guns at the guy’s ranch and if so, did the social workers know about them when they made the placements. Troubled teenagers and guns–what could possibly go wrong?
SFAW
@Corner Stone:
Looked like BGinCHI was suggesting that for Cole, not himself.
But, yeah, moving to Swedenaviawaymark is pretty commie-lovin’. Of course, if he just wanted to mooch, he could have gone out to hang with Mammon Bundy, and Live Off The Fat Of The Land That Is Paid For By Someone Else.
schrodinger's cat
@Geeno: Even better, make child labor legal, Victorian values for everyone!
ETA: Exploit the weak at home and abroad and do it in the name of God, what could be better.
SFAW
@schrodinger’s cat:
Are there no work houses?
rikyrah
Does anyone here watch The Royals on E!?
If you do…can you explain to me why the King died?
I’ve watched it all, and I don’t understand.
I simply don’t understand.
debbie
@Kay:
Kay, they do this because they believe their cause is as righteous as the colonists’. Glenn Beck insisted Cliven Bundy had all the qualities of a Founding Father. Of course, this was before Bundy’s discourse on racial relations, but Beck never retracted his statement,
MomSense
@rikyrah:
After the King’s eldest son and heir died, he was so bereaved he decided that the monarchy should end so someone killed him in order to save the monarchy. I don’t think the show is supposed to make sense beyond hot royals doing naughty things to moody music.
Kay
@debbie:
I’m sick of people who believe they’re the colonists. I don’t think they have any more “right” to that land than you or I do. They shouldn’t romanticize the revolutionary war period. It was a war. It wasn’t people traipsing around in modern cold weather clothing bitching that they can’t give speeches in the public school gym. I can’t give a speech in the public school gym either. They have to get clear on the differences between private and public ownership.
rikyrah
@MomSense:
If Cyrus had killed the King, I’d understand.
If the guy who took the fall for killing the King had actually done it, I’d understand.
I don’t understand TED killing the King. Was he always planning it? As part of some conspiracy?
debbie
@Kay:
Having just finished “The Witches,” if I thought these clowns could handle a 400-page book, I’d make them read it to see what dicks the first colonists actually were.
rikyrah
@Corner Stone:
which was a plot of a Person of Interest episode. …except, it was a probation officer setting up his ex-cons and taking away their children.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: most of the people in the militia movement/patriot movement/sovereign citizen movement are, at best, working poor. The few that are better off are the guys like Rhodes who retired from the Army as a major(20 years of service) and who had a law practice. And he makes money off of the oath keeper stuff too. The leaders do okay, whether from military retirements, military disability, non military disability, some have legit businesses and some are running grifts and scams, and some both. The followers – not so much. Some have military retirements or disabilities or other veterans’ benefits, but a lot are living pay check to pay check at best.
Mnemosyne
@debbie:
@Kay:
I’ve been reading a lot about the Revolutionary War period thanks to my “Hamilton” obsession. Cliven Bundy ain’t no Founding Father, and until they resort to eating their horses like the Americans did at Valley Forge, they’re pikers in the sacrifice column, too.
moderateindy
At the beginning of the post did anyone flash back immediately to last night’s Good Wife, and the lawyer that kept mentioning she had an adopted daughter from China?
But seriously Ms. Rettig, you should be commended for sacrificing your time, and energy for something as difficult as being a foster parent. I wish I was a good enough human being to do that.
Let me play devil’s advocate for a moment. I know people that grew up on farms and ranches, and it ain’t the burbs. Those kids worked constantly, and nobody would clainm that it was somehow abusive. Plus, having a fairly disciplined structured life is probably a pretty good idea for kids that have, in all likelihood, grew up in total chaos.
So perhaps it would behoove us to chill out on the hyperbole until we know all the facts, lest we give validity to the “both sides do it” meme. Of course, if and when the facts bear out that this guy was actually mistreating the kids, and not just treating them in a manner that you might not approve of, then you can blast away
Adam L Silverman
@Kay: I covered that last week, that Bundy had been planning this for months with a militia guy from Montana.
Mnemosyne
@SFAW:
I’ve been reading about narcissistic parents and they absolutely pull shit like that. In addition to stealing the money that their kids get for birthdays and graduations (because the parents “deserve” to be paid back for what they spent on their kids, don’t’chat know) , it’s not uncommon for them to take out Parent Plus loans ostensibly to pay for the kids’ college and then demand that the kids pay those loans back.
And these are people’s own biological children, for the most part. It’s often even worse when you mix narcissists and foster or adopted children, because there’s no hesitation about exploiting them.
Right now, my nephew is living with my brother as an unofficial foster child (my brother is his guardian) and he gets a Social Security check because he’s a minor whose father died. Of the $900, my brother takes $300 a month for expenses and the rest goes into a savings account so my nephew has some savings when he turns 18 this year. That’s the non-asshole way to do it.
Feathers
@SFAW: Actually, Harvard has free tuition for families making under $60,000, but the rubes don’t know that, so you could send him to Harvard and still make out like a bandit!
Mnemosyne
@moderateindy:
I don’t necessarily want to cast aspersions, but there have been so many cases of religious families taking too many foster kids and then exploiting and/or abusing them that I’m not sure I’m willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. The ranch thing does raise some red flags for me because it’s very easy to isolate kids out there and claim to be homeschooling them while neglecting their education.
And saying up front that you’re supporting yourself with the payments from foster care is another red flag — as several people here have said, those payments are usually barely enough to cover the kid’s expenses, so what are the kids not getting because the foster parents are using those payments for the mortgage or farm equipment?
Feathers
@Corner Stone: I’ve been following the Oregon standoff via the twitter feed of @jjmcnab. She studies the anti-government extremists and is on the scene. She points out that someone with very deep pockets is behind the operation. If you go back aways, you can see the movement go from hand-lettered to professionally printed signage. My sweet hope and dream in all of this is that the money trail goes back to Russia, where the ultra-right has close ties to their American counterparts. Undoubtedly too good to be true.
Note: the @jjmcnab feed was found via the twitter feed of William Gibson @greatdismal, who always seems to have the coolest stuff at his fingertips.
SFAW
@Feathers:
I wish you had told me that BEFORE I wrote “after we got home from our (professional) jobs”! I coulda fixed my story. Next time, please anticipate better what I’m going to write, so that I can play out the grift to its fullest, you selfish bastard.
Commie.
MaryRc
@Kay: Foster parenting rules will stipulate a certain ratio of adults to children, including the foster parent’s own children. It’s usually 5-6 children per adult. Finicum has said that he has 11 children. Whether that includes the foster children or not wasn’t clear to me but even it does, that’s one adult in charge of 11 children for an unspecified length of time (to say nothing of the other adult in charge committing crimes) which probably is enough for child protective services to step in and remove the children (which they did).
Boatboy_srq
What’s fascinating here is that the fostering industry (it really is one) has such a long history of this kind-of [mis]placement, while placing kids with same-sex couples (presumably far better able to care for the young’uns) has been such a big no-no. Seems cisgendered couples can get away with a lot more just because they’re “normal.”
Related: maybe it’s just the crowd I know, but there don’t seem to be any visible LGBT militiapeople. Wonder why… (/snark)
Emily68
@bemused @Corner Stone:
In a previous thread, I chuckled when you described your 11 year old using deadpan questions on his Republican grandparents. That’s an excellent skill to have acquired at such a young age and I would love to be present when he uses it. You must have a hard time keeping a straight face.
: Can you refer us to this?
Amanda Matthews
@Miss Bianca: Absolute truth! If you’re doing it right it is NOT a money making scheme. And many do it right. Most do it right.
But as always, if one person is caught doing it wrong but the time it gets to a ‘liberal’ website, they’re ALL doing it wrong.?
And I’ve spent over 4 decades identifying as a Democratic Liberal/Progressive.
Kay
@moderateindy:
Well a lot of them here don’t work at all- they go to school and sports practices and piano lessons like everyone else. They don’t work at the farm small business any more than another family has their children working at a body shop or restaurant they own.
If they do work it’s different because they’re staying. They have an actual long term interest in that entity and sometimes it’s real value- they stand to actually inherent the ground. Fosters who are in and out don’t get that payback.
Corner Stone
@Emily68: I can, but it’s not really worth looking for, IMO.
We did a few kid stories through the Democratic Debate Open thread last night.
Adam L Silverman
@Feathers: This would not surprise me. At the April 2015 meeting in Russia, sponsored and paid for by Putin, of the various ultra-Nationalist European political parties there was also an attendee representing the major Texas secessionist organization. And they receive money from Putin. Part of Putin’s doctrine, for lack of a better term, is revanchist. And the revanchism is to see the EU and US undone the way he, and the ideologues he’s aligned with like Dugin, believe the USSR was dismantled by its enemies.
MaryRc
@Betty Cracker: One of the qualifications for becoming a foster parent is that you have to prove that you can already support your own family without relying on the foster care payments as a source of income. It’s actually spelled out in the Arizona DCS rules where the Finicums live. So saying that foster care is your main source of income is certainly a red flag.
I don’t think we know that Finicum was using the children as unpaid labor and if he was, well, every rancher’s and farmer’s kid has chores, take it from one who knows. For all we know they could have been watching TV all day.
But he’s not supposed to make a profit off them. And he’s not supposed to abandon them to play cowboy.
zattarra
I do foster care right now. We’re on our 7th kid. I’m pretty sure I’ve lost money on every single one of them. And that I think is the right way to do it. If you are doing this for the money you’re doing something wrong. Clothing. Food. Activities. Toys. More clothing (I’ve had multiple kids going through puberty). School supplies. School activities. Camp. I’ve bought every kid a bicycle. Most of these kids have come with the clothing on their back. The minimal clothing allowance if we get it doesn’t come close. We’ve always had kids through Christmas so there is that. The per diem shouldn’t pay for this. We take in the kids because we can afford it and we have the space and no kids. The per diem is helpful because we can give the kids some more and say no a lot less. In order to make a profit I’m thinking you’d have to take a large number of kids at once and buy in bulk and be very restrictive on what the kids get and can do.
Hillary Rettig
@Adam L Silverman: a lot of the rightwingers I know (esp. around the beltway) are double and triple dippers. Military pension, civil service pension, and social security.
Hillary Rettig
@zattarra: thanks for your wonderful good works. (and post)
Kay
@zattarra:
I don’t think they have to be making a “profit” given the information we have. He said the money they take in for foster care was their only source of income. If they take in 100,000 they could spend 100,000 on ranch+ adults+ children and break even.
I just don’t think it was designed as a sole income source because without those kids it sounds like they have nothing coming in- not even to cover expenses for two adults. They essentially turned money that was supposed to be a subsidy to benefit the children into a paying job for two adults, which as you note is not the spirit of the thing.
PhoenixRising
@MaryRc: Yeah, far from a plot originating in the Oval Office to make the revolutionary loon brigade pay a price for their patriotism, what we have here is a simple math problem.
If the foster care license doesn’t both cap the number of children and specify the number of adults living in the home I’ll eat it.
Having 1 fewer adults living in the home voids their contract to foster because it’s outside the scope of their license. No need to even glance toward the question about whether the foster kids are in better conditions on a working ranch than they would be in an institution in Maricopa County.
Foster care isn’t about finding the best placement for any particular ward’s special needs–it’s about getting kids whose families of origin have broken down on them into a setting that won’t get the state sued. The caseworker who places with this ranch family is up a creek herself, I bet–if her weren’t on national TV bragging about why he’s ignoring the terms of their license, she wouldn’t have had to act.
Everyone but the spokesloon I feel sorry for…those kids had a home, the caseworker had hard-to-place cases in a home. He just had to shoot his mouth off.
Kay
@MaryRc:
\
I wonder of he justifies it as not “a profit”- he’s just paying himself a kind of salary for services because the kids are covering the entire expenses for a ranch and 2 adults. Maybe to him it’s “breaking even”.
Adam L Silverman
@Hillary Rettig: There’s a difference between military retirees that go into the civil service and are registered Republicans and/or identify as conservative and the guys at the wildlife refuge in Oregon.
MaryRc
@PhoenixRising: Yes, that’s the first thing that occurred to me. As soon as he started to grandstand on TV, it was that social worker’s job on the line. That’s what’s so infuriating about this. Regardless of how the children were treated – and we don’t know that they were mistreated, only that the Finicums obviously didn’t spend the entire stipend on them — now they’ve been uprooted again and have to settle down in a new environment. He contracted to provide a secure and stable home for these children and he reneged on that promise. What a jackass.
gelfling545
@Tara the Antisocial Social Worker: It could certainly be argued that, to one who believes the same nonsense, this would be putting these kids in harms way. If you expect the Feds to come in, guns blazing, at any time would you want kids around? Yet he engages in risky behavior with no thought to the kids safety? In any case, it demonstrates that he is not capable of good judgment so it’s good that the kids are out of his influence.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
@gelfling545: I totally agree. Bad enough that if one of Finicum’s buddies starts shooting, the kids would see it on TV, not knowing what’s going to happen to him.
But if he actually thought SWAT teams were going to show up at his ranch, WTF was he doing having kids there?
Davebo
@Feathers:
With an endowment of 37.6 Billion dollars Harvard should be free to anyone regardless of income.
Harvard is now an investment firm that gives diplomas on the side.
Davebo
@Tara the Antisocial Social Worker:
Human Shields. Just like the founders believe in! ;-)
Anne Laurie
Don’t know if this applies in Finicum’s case, but one thread that’s important to a lot of the “Godly” people doing foster care / adoption “in bulk” is indoctrination. Folks like Justin Harris — the Arkansas state rep who used his position to adopt two little girls, then “rehomed” them to a sexual predator when they turned out to be too much trouble — explicitly want to “save souls” for their particular brand of Christianism.
Rich
Having worked with family services (as clinician at a community mental health center) in a relatively functional county in a perennially middling state, I can tell you that there is a permanent shortage of competent foster parents and the system will look the other way unless something fairly egregious is going on—and that’s in a place that’s not horrible. In a low tax, low service state like AZ that draws the hopeful and the sociopathic and dysfunctional from all over, I would imagine that the family service agencies have a very low bar for foster parents (breathing and upright) and don’t look very hard at what’s going on unless it is so bad that they will lose their jobs.
Betsy
@SFAW: It’s OK. These days, there are plenty of professionals making under $30,000 a year.
Betsy
@moderateindy: Sure, I too thought for a moment of your good old-fashioned Anne of Green Gables sort of arrangement — (that’s fiction, though) — but the pattern of government grift and egotism that this guy has so far manifested doesn’t give me any confidence that he isn’t doing the same thing with those kids that he’s doing with land and cattle.
Liberty, for the American conservative, is about how many other creatures you can force to do your bidding. That’s how Kim Davis defines her freedom. That’s how slavery apologists define rights. That’s how the “job creatorZ!” meme thrives.
Growing up usefully and happily on a ranch with a great foster dad as a mentor and teacher is a nice concept. It would be FAR too naive to think this *particular* foster parent has anything but good old fashioned resource exploitation in mind.
Snarki, child of Loki
Clearly this Y’all-Qaida dude is a real piker when it comes to griftin’ the foster kid system.
Why, wasn’t there some fundie southern type (Alabama? MS?) that ‘re-homed’ his kids with child molesters? Just think, they could be collecting the cash coming and going. Ka-Ching!
N. R. Murray
I worked with developmentally delayed (disabled) men in Vermont from 2002 to 2008. One of my clients was a guy in his 60s who lived with this older couple (about his age), the home providers. When I went to pick him up, their “rule” was that I was to not enter the gate and to wait out by the road for him. Once when I went to get him, no one came to the gate, so thinking there might be a problem, I went inside to get him. He was out back mowing a very large lawn. After I got him to come over to the house, he showed me his room in the cellar. So basically, he was a slave, and when his work for the day was done, he was sent to his room in the cellar. I reported this to the agency and he was pulled out by the sheriff and an investigation was begun into his treatment. Unfortunately the home providers were not charged, as they should have been. But I was able to get him into a well qualified friend’s house and he lived there happily for many years until they moved him to another home provider, where he died after two weeks by choking on pizza on a late night refrigerator raid.
martian
@Snarki, child of Loki: Arkansas. Anne Laurie has links at 121. He and the missus kept them around long enough for election photo ops, then ditched the kids with the molestor. They thought one of the girls was possessed, apparently. Literally, possessed. They are that brand of Christianists. The molestor also later rehomed the girls to yet another family. Last I heard, there have been no consequences for anybody but those which the victims have suffered.
I am bemused by all the people I have seen here and elsewhere arguing about how unfair it is to prejudge Finicum without knowing more facts. Yeah, sure, more facts are always good, but exactly how much benefit of the doubt does the spokesman for a bunch of grifting, armed, anti-government looters and thieves get? The shitheel outright said the kids were pretty much his sole source of income and, even if he were parenting them instead of treating them like yet another resource to exploit, exactly what wholesome, salt of the earth values do you think he’d be inculcating there?
sigaba
@Feathers:
It would not be a shocking development, what does the RT coverage of Yokel Haram look like?
Most of your American fringe right-wingers would happily move to Putin’s Russia as long as they could still open carry on the streets of Novosibirsk. The opinion that “Putin’s the only world leader who’s fighting against the White Genocide/Eurabia/Gay Mafia” is pretty common in the posts and comment threads of joints like Taki’s Mag and The American Conservative…
Adam L Silverman
@Anne Laurie: This was my thought here. Especially if he’s also a member of one of the racialized Christian denominations, basically Christian Identity and its offshoots, so popular on the extreme right.
MaryRc
@martian: Finicum is obviously a grifter whose primary concern isn’t the welfare of these children. It’s a bit of a leap from there to imply that he’s guilty of slavery or child prostitution as people here have done. I would rather wait to hear more before I would assume that he is guilty of these serious crimes.
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
There was a judge (at least one) in PA who got found out taking big contributions from a private prison in return for sending them lots of actually innocent youths for the maximum sentence on the crimes they didn’t commit.
Pretty sure the Judge is doing time now, hoping it is in a private prison feeding grits and lard. Yes, I know that’s hateful of me, but he needs just that kind of sentence, what he did is horrible!
WaterGirl
“Hey Marge, remember those homeless kids we keep giving to the rancher for free labor? Maybe we shouldn’t be doing that.”
Classic! I laughed at your comment, but I was disgusted/appalled/enraged when I read that “the foster kids were my main source of income” statement from one of the crazies yesterday. Sick, disgusting creatures.
J R in WV
@zattarra:
Thank you for what you do for the kids!! It takes a special person, and obviously you are just that kind of person/family. Best of luck to you and yours!
martian
@MaryRc: I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to suggest Finicum – who only fostered boys and has cycled through 50 in ten years – was likely exploiting the kids for labour as well as the checks that were supposed to be used for their needs. I have not seen anyone here using the words “slavery”, but it’s not a huge leap to call wage free, coerced labour “slavery”. I haven’t seen anybody use the word “prostitution” here either, though I have elsewhere. While I can understand why people raise the concern that abuse could have happened, I do think it’s a bad idea in general to speculate about people’s victim status, especially children.
This guy and his buddies want to kill people. They want to instigate a confrontation so that they can kill people. People in general have no awareness of how extreme these groups’ beliefs actually are and are not very likely to hear of it from the media. What is the point of people concern trolling discussion of them over issues of fairness?
MaryRc
@martian: People have used the words “slave” and “slavery” here and one commenter has used the word “prostitution”, otherwise I wouldn’t have brought it up.
martian
@MaryRc: I don’t think people should be speculating about sexual abuse out of consideration for the kids. Other than that, it does not seem to me that people are out of line speculating about the possible further crimes of a thieving, looting, aspiring murderer. Once you’re part of the leadership of a gang of wannabe killers, discussion of what other terrible crimes you’re capable of seems fair game.
moderateindy
Jeebus people get a little perspective. I’m not even saying give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I’m saying hold off until you actually have some facts beyond, I don’t like the guy, and he could potentially be doing something bad, so he must have malevolent intentions in everything he does. It isn’t ridiculous to say why don’t you wait for a little bit, and hear some actual evidence.
Or you can act like Republicans after the Iranians took the Americans into custody, and assign all kinds of nefarious motives, and actions to the Iranians, and blame on the President for god knows what, instead of waiting for actual facts to come out. Martian actually more, or less pronounced it would be irresponsible not to speculate.
On a different note,I’m actually surprised that there aren’t more of these types of things,(that these fools in Oregon are doing) happening.
I don’t think most people that don’t live in rural America have any idea how much the population is inundated with propoganda on a daily basis. In the mid 90’s I drove all over the midwest for business, and if you weren’t near a city all you got was AM radio which consisted of god stuff, or Rushbo, and company. I can only imagine what it’s like now. Travel around in the south or rural midwest / west and every bar / restaurant / business that has a TV for any reason, and it’s always turned to Fox News.
What’s the matter with Kansas? Between the Fundy Xtians, and the popular media, they are constantly barraged with propoganda. It then becomes ingrained into the populace, which simply makes the whole con belief system so ubiquitous that the indoctrination is self sustaining. The biggest part of the problem is when the indoctrination is in full force even evidence that proves your beliefs are incorrect are easily dismissed. Between the right wing noise machine, and the rise of not just fundy churches, but the Megachurch, which becomes the hub, not only spiritually, but also socially, and professionally for so many people, I don’t see any way this country doesn’t become more divided going forward.
Gvg
My sister and I have been foster moms. The rules for different states vary a lot and change over time. In Florida there are rules and it should be impossible to make a profit or live off foster caring except if you are doing medical foster which is a lot more hard work and you probably can’t do it and hold down a different job. Too. In other words full time nurse.
Floridas rules also stay how many square feet of private space each kid has to have minimum which should make warehouse bunking impossible. It’s not huge but it is space. We’d like to do it again after we move and it factors into our house hunt. A room has to have a closet to be a bedroom.
We spent more money than we need to because we enjoy it. Kids are fun. We also spend for conveinence and time savings because we can afford it and it helps us. Still we know foster parents on tighter budgets who manage. A lot of the annoying rules we have to follow came out of the system people trying to prevent what this guy is doing. The social workers tell us stories and this guy is a problem.
There aren’t enough good foster parents. We got calls all the time to take more than we knew we could handle. People would say it’s so great what ya’ll are doing…but very few seemed likely to follow through on questions about how to do it. If you ever have time, consider doing it. No rules change will help unless there are more good foster parents. More bodies, more hands.
martian
@moderateindy: Evidence like the guy saying outright that the boys were pretty much his sole source of income since the ranch barely covered it’s costs? Evidence like the media reports that to collect the six figures he was getting, Finicum was probably averaging up to eight foster kids at a time, by his accounts, the really troubled ones? No I’m sure it’s just that I don’t like the guy and in truth this militia nut job who hopes to help instigate an armed insurrection has a secret heart of gold and a gift for reaching troubled youth by providing a good dose of discipline, structure, and some fresh air. The civics lessons are just gravy. Be the change, boys!
Wonder how much Mr. Without-the-boys-it’s-rice-and-beans has spent on guns and ammo in the last few years?
fork
“[Fostering] was my main source of income,”
Somehow I can’t picture this guy cooking meals, doing laundry, etc. That’s woman’s work. In reality, the person doing what little care work they didn’t have the kids doing themselves was most certainly his wife. That’s likely why he didn’t think twice about “abandoning” the family – there were no responsibilities that needed to be re-allocated. This means that if anyone was earning an income, it was his wife. Yet Finicum considers compensation for his wife’s labour to be “his” income.
beatlejuice
@Bardi: Cliven Bundy being one of them. If you haven’t heard his comments about how black Americans would be better off still picking cotton, google it. Makes one wonder what kind of boys his might have turned out to be without such a father.
Kelly
From the Lavoy Finicum’s Stand for Freedom Facebook today: “This was written by Allison Nash who is the mother of a child who was placed in our home. This child is now 18 so it can legally be shared. The world needs to hear the truth.
Today is my son’s 18th birthday. It is supposed to be a day of joyful celebration. Instead my son has entered adulthood with grief at the death of Lavoy Finnicum. Michael, like many kids, has endured some rough patches in his life, especially as he entered the teen years. It was decided that a break was need for both of us, and he went up to far northern Arizona and life for a period of time with Lavoy and Jeanette Finicum. Although we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, I have nothing but respect for these fine people. They helped Michael on the road of his journey, giving him structure, respect and guidance. Michael thrived on the ranch, doing chores, attending church and school, and helping out on cattle drives, loving every minute spent in the saddle. I knew Lavoy to be a kind, respectful, reverend and gentle man. I will never believe that he instigated a violent encounter. Instead, I can see him trying to bring down the tension, possibly positioning himself between the federal officers and others more hot tempered than he. This is a tragic loss for his family, my son Michael, and other Arizona youth who were helped along the path to adulthood by Lavoy and Jeanette.”
I’ve also seen all of his children’s pages that are on Facebook and they all seem like very happy kids in a very loving family. Some of their former foster children are on Facebook and have expressed sorrow at his passing. Maybe everyone here should get first hand accounts before jumping to your own twisted conclusions. I know people who pay a lot of money to send their kids to ranches like these for the real life experience it offers and it’s lessons in hard work and responsibility. Meanwhile, everyone commenting here has no personal knowledge of what these children experienced or how they viewed their time on the ranch but you seem to know all about what’s good for them and not good for them. Wow.