Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Everybody saw this coming.

No one could have predicted…

I was promised a recession.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

This blog will pay for itself.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

I didn’t have alien invasion on my 2023 BINGO card.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

You cannot shame the shameless.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

You are here: Home / Politics / Politicans / Bernie Sanders 2016 / Open Thread: Once More, With Feeling

Open Thread: Once More, With Feeling

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Okay, I’m a partisan (having been a Democrat my whole life, not just since last Fall), but while it sounds like both Clinton and Sanders had an excellent debate last night, seems like Clinton may have the edge. Ed Kilgore, at NYMag, “Clinton’s Clever Debate Strategy: Cling to Obama in a Party That’s Already Missing Him“:

If Democratic primary voters were as furious at their own party’s powers-that-be as are Republican voters, the posture taken by Bernie Sanders in the NBC/YouTube debate Sunday night would be a clear winner: both parties have been bought by wealthy interests, and only an anti-corporate crusader like Bernie can avoid the terrible policy mistakes committed by and under the Clinton and Obama administrations. Indeed, if a sizable majority of Democrats thought the last two administrations of their own party were the corporate betrayals that many of Sanders’ most avid supporters consider them to be, HRC would be the perfect symbol of the continuing DINO establishment that had to be overthrown to install progressive governance.

Alas for the Sanders campaign, that’s not how Democrats feel. According to the latest Gallup weekly presidential job approval tracking poll, the 44th president’s rating among Democrats is 84 percent. Among self-identified Liberal Democrats it’s at 89 percent; among African-Americans it’s at 85 percent. Yet it is extremely difficult for Sanders to make his case that HRC is too close to Wall Street or too militaristic or too timid on domestic policy without co-indicting the incumbent president. Hillary Clinton understands that, which is why she took so much care in the NBC debate to identify her approach to regulation of Wall Street with Obama’s; to defend Obamacare in contrast to Sanders’ advocacy of a single-payer health care system; to remind Democrats she was a major architect of Obama’s foreign policy; and to refuse opportunities to separate herself from Obama even though some consultants probably think she’ll need to do that to win a general election..

***********
Apart from rehashing old battles (and remembering that, whomever the ultimate Democratic nominee, whichever hairwad ends up at the front of the Repub swarm will be waywayway worse), what’s on the agenda for the evening?

Reader Interactions

231Comments

  3. 3.

    lamh36

    Hopefully some of you had a chance to see the livestream of the #MLKNOW program where celebs and activist recited great speeches of both Dr King and civil rights pioneers in the struggle.

    @JamilSmith 10s11 seconds ago Manhattan, NY
    Belafonte, after concluding his reading of Lumumba, talks about welcoming King to his home to discuss the Poor People’s Campaign. #MLKNOW

    @RevoltTV 7m7 minutes ago
    Legendary Harry Belafonte speaks the words of Patrice Lumumba at #MLKNOW #MLKDay

  4. 4.

    Linda Featheringill

    A lot of Hillary’s supporters are absolutely terrified of the word “socialist.” It will be interesting to see how big a portion of the general population isn’t upset by the word at all.

    [Yes, I’m a Bernie supporter but I would happily vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination.]

  5. 5.

    Gimlet

    @Linda Featheringill: “A lot of Hillary’s supporters are absolutely terrified of the word “socialist.””

    http://nypost.com/2016/01/16/dont-be-fooled-by-bernie-sanders-hes-a-diehard-communist/

    the liberal media elite have suddenly stopped calling him socialist. He’s now cleaned up as a “progressive” or “pragmatist.”

    But he’s not even a socialist. He’s a communist.

    Mainstreaming Sanders requires whitewashing his radical pro-communist past. It won’t be easy to do.

    If Sanders were vying for a Cabinet post, he’d never pass an FBI background check. There’d be too many subversive red flags popping up in his file.

  6. 6.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    It seems as though my landlord has decided to paint the exterior of this place; did he give me a heads up, no. I was awaken by my cocker barking at strange people outside moving stuff. I am a mushroom.

  8. 8.

    chopper

    Bernie Sanders, calling for a 50 state political strategy, hasn’t raised a single dime for a state Democratic Party this cycle

    that’s because sanders and his supporters subscribe to the Underpants Gnomes’ theory of ‘political revolution’.

  9. 9.

    Roger Moore

    Keep in mind as these guys talk foreign policy: none listed foreign policy, fighting terrorism, defeating ISIS, as their top priorities.

    Yet they still spoke with greater knowledge and intelligence than any of the Republicans did.

  10. 10.

    chopper

    @Roger Moore:

    Keep in mind as these guys talk foreign policy: none listed foreign policy, fighting terrorism, defeating ISIS, as their top priorities.

    given that you’re probably more likely to be killed by a malfunctioning refrigerator than by daesh, this seems like a good thing.

  11. 11.

    Gimlet

    From “The Hill”

    “Will Hillary Clinton get prosecuted?” is the top question being asked on Google searches concerning the Democratic front-runner during the debate, in Charleston, S.C.

    Two of the top five questions relating to Clinton implicitly concern the FBI investigation into the private email server she used as secretary of State.

  14. 14.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    The problem with Clinton’s Cling To Obama strategy is that it’s a transparent ploy to hold onto the African-American voting bloc since she’s already lost the utes. She can’t even maintain the fiction through the entire debate since she basically threw Obama under the bus with her closing statement about Flint.

  15. 15.

    MattF

    @Gimlet: And Bill O’Reilly says he’ll move to Ireland if Sanders gets to be President. I’ll only note that O’Reilly didn’t seem to realize that he gave Sanders a considerable boost.

  24. 24.

    Pogonip

    I’m trying to warm up after an afternoon running errands in the cold. Now I know why old people go to Florida, 4-inch flying roaches notwithstanding.

    I believe I have a running mate for Baud. I saw a trailer for a Tarzan movie coming out this summer, and it occurred to me that, aside from his propensity to swing through the trees in his underwear, which most homeowners associations would not allow, Tarzan is a model citizen. He bothers no one who doesn’t bother him first. He sticks to his principles but doesn’t pester others about them. He’s generous. He’s a good steward of the environment. He and Jane are good but not intrusive neighbors.

    Baud/Tarzan ’16. Because It’s A Jungle Out There.

  27. 27.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    The problem with Clinton’s Cling To Obama strategy is that it’s a transparent ploy to hold onto the African-American voting bloc since she’s already lost the utes. She can’t even maintain the fiction through the entire debate since she basically threw Obama under the bus with her closing statement about Flint.

    It could be worse.

    She could have gone on Thom Hartmann’s radio show in 2011 and said it would be a “good idea” to primary the President.

    Like Bernie actually did.

  28. 28.

    debbie

    @Lord Baldrick:

    He was the editor of the Manchester Union Leader (Manchester, NH). A real right-winger back in his prime (1940s-1970s); today, he’d be a RINO.

  29. 29.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    apparently, unlike their fearless leader, who inherited the job, the students at Liberty had the good sense to be unimpressed

    There was his citation of the Bible: “Two Corinthians 3-17, that’s the whole ball game. … Is that the one? Is that the one you like? I think that’s the one you like.”
    There was the part where he ranked his favorite books, calling The Art of the Deal “a deep, deep second to the Bible. The Bible is the best. The Bible blows it away.”

    “Is that what you fuckin’ yokels wanna hear?” I’m a liberal elitist, and I’m offended for them.

  31. 31.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @ruemara:

    When I first saw Germy‘s comment about Don Mclean, I was sure it was going to report the death of yet another musician.*

    *(I know, I know.)

  35. 35.

    Iowa Old Lady

    I have a question about the Flint water situation. As I understand it, the pipes are so wrecked that even if Flint switched back to Detroit water as quickly as they could, it wouldn’t be drinkable. Is that right? Can you bathe in Flint’s water? I’m just thinking that these donations of bottled water are a puny (thought necessary at the moment) step. Flint will need massive amounts of water for an extended time. I can’t even imagine how you do that.

  39. 39.

    Elizabelle

    @SiubhanDuinne: We could be awful and nominate musicians to be the next one off the planet.

    I can’t think of any. It’s easier to vote off media gasbags. “Musician” implies a certain amount of competence.

    Shocked to hear Glenn Frey had died. Although: learned yesterday that Chuck Berry is still with us. Aged 89. Had no idea.

    And Keef lives!

  40. 40.

    Lord Baldrick

    @debbie: Kevin Cash self-published a book about Loeb in 1975. I bought the book at publication and proudly own the copy to this day – a read that defies description.

    When Mr. Cash died recently, I wandered over to the Wikipedia page on Loeb and noted (with IMMENSE satisfaction) that virtually all of the entries on Loeb are based on Cash’s book.

  43. 43.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    That’s my understanding (about the pipes).

    I saw somewhere (sorry, can’t remember where or I’d provide a link) that even General Motors won’t use Flint River water now for their manufacturing requirements. Never mind the fact that GM’s industrial runoff may be a significant factor in the Flint River’s water quality — it is now too corrosive to safely make vehicle parts.

    As a onetime Flint resident (well, and naturally as a human being), this entire situation has me in that awful emotional merging of broken-hearted and incandescently furious, simultaneously.

  45. 45.

    cmorenc

    @Pogonip:

    I saw a trailer for a Tarzan movie coming out this summer, and it occurred to me that, aside from his propensity to swing through the trees in his underwear, which most homeowners associations would not allow

    Imagine the horror of the nazis on HOA boards when they discover that they forgot to write anything into the covenants against people swinging through the trees on vines in their own yards.

  48. 48.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @MattF:
    No surprise there. Evangelicals are one of the most deeply racist blocks of the GOP constituency, and Trump is the candidate offering the hardest, most open racist hate speech. Once they made it clear to everyone that they totally would have voted for a black man, they dumped Ben Carson and moved on to the guy who says the things everyone else is afraid to say.

    Guess what everyone else is afraid to say? I’ll give you a hint – if it were ‘there’s too much money in politics’, these people would be voting Democrat.

  50. 50.

    Brachiator

    @Linda Featheringill:

    A lot of Hillary’s supporters are absolutely terrified of the word “socialist.” It will be interesting to see how big a portion of the general population isn’t upset by the word at all.

    Not afraid of it. Might even be willing to embrace it.

    Sanders’ problem is that he is a crank who fell in love with an idea 30 or 40 years ago and is stuck on it. He has not evolved or refined his thinking, nor has ever developed a coherent plan for getting to his supposed promised land.

    He is the American equivalent of UK Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn, another crank of unquestioned integrity who cannot connect the dots between his ideological purity and reality.

  52. 52.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Elizabelle:

    I saw a photo of Keef a few weeks ago. He is about a year and a half younger than I am, but I say without any pride or personal credit at all that he looks forty years older. I look my age; he looks like one of those “oldest living man” features the newspapers occasionally run. I could go hiking in some of his face wrinkles and disappear up to the knee.

    But, as you say, he is still alive, and that’s a good thing.

  53. 53.

    Cacti

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    I have a question about the Flint water situation. As I understand it, the pipes are so wrecked that even if Flint switched back to Detroit water as quickly as they could, it wouldn’t be drinkable. Is that right? Can you bathe in Flint’s water? I’m just thinking that these donations of bottled water are a puny (thought necessary at the moment) step. Flint will need massive amounts of water for an extended time. I can’t even imagine how you do that.

    The magnitude of the Flint water crisis, and the amount of water needed to replace the contaminated source in the interim is staggering. We’re talking about daily water needs for 99,763 people.

    Anything less than lengthy prison terms for Rick Snyder, his appointed emergency manager for Flint, and the head of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality will be a grave injustice, given the extent of the crime and the number of victims.

  56. 56.

    Elizabelle

    @raven: Thank you. Bookmarked it for listening tonight. Never heard of them.

    Twould be one of the Glimmer Twins. Tis Keef.

    It’s 18 degrees and wind chill on top of that in Northern Virginia. Happy to be snug at home this evening.

  59. 59.

    Iowa Old Lady

    @SiubhanDuinne: I was at GMI from 1986-95. I lived in Birmingham and commuted.

    Re Flint’s water, coincidentally my current audiobook is Grisham’s The Appeal, which opens with a company being slapped with millions of dollars in punitive damages because they polluted the environment in a town, despite knowing they were causing damage. To me, what Snyder and his minions did was no different.

  61. 61.

    jl

    Read Sanders’ health care plan and what analyses I can fine online.

    I think Krugman’s accusation that it works off of magic asterisks is misleading. I don’t see GOP or Paul Ryan type magic asterisks, which are used to indicate where the impossible happens. If the numbers I saw in analyses are correct, Sanders wants to get health care expenditures down, as a percent of US GDP, to level of highest expenditure European Countries: Netherlands and Switzerland.

    This should be very possible, without serious rationing or even waiting lines. Neither Netherlands nor Switzerland have Medicare for all systems. One article said Sanders was more ambitious, to get down to between 8 and 10 percent of GDP (but a little unclear whether this is just for federal spending), which would get us down to Japan, Australia (which could be a model for Medicare for all), or Norway, which has an rather unique system, I’ll have to go remind myself how it works. I think it treats inpatient and outpatient care very differently, and also pediatrics versus adults, IIRC.

    But, point is that all of these countries have better health outcomes, with far lower costs. In fact, almost two dozen high income industrial countries around the world have health outcomes better than US, at far lower costs.

    So the magic asterisk stands not for the impossible, but for the unexplained. And some of those countries mentioned above do not have strict rationing, or even waiting times for elective procedures significantly worse than the US. So I think Krugman is just wrong.

    But Sanders gives no explanation on how these savings will be achieved. I don’t think there is enough in the health insurance industry itself, or big Pharma, to achieve those savings. Will have to go after inefficient care in US, and local and regional market provider monopolies and oligopolies, and also get US MD profession to put more personnel and emphasis on primary care versus specialist, including the reimbursement bureaucracy.

    HRC’s plan almost as vague about how she will implement her plan, though its presentation has more jargon. But makes less difference because she proposes much less radical change in short term.

    Probably too much to hope for detailed plans for something like healthcare in a political campaign, though.

    But again, why don’t the Dems just adopt the Cruz foreign policy plan for everything: ‘We win, they lose’. Can’t beat that.

  67. 67.

    Cacti

    @Linda Featheringill:

    A lot of Hillary’s supporters are absolutely terrified of the word “socialist.” It will be interesting to see how big a portion of the general population isn’t upset by the word at all.

    Gallup polled that hypothetical question back in June.

    Socialist drew the highest number of respondents who would definitely not vote for them (50%) in a list that included: atheists, Muslims, evangelical Christians, gays or lesbians, Mormons, Jews, Hispanics, blacks, women, and Catholics.

    And Bernistas wonder why many of us consider him the second coming of George McGovern in a national election.

  68. 68.

    Anoniminous

    Those responsible for the Flint Water Mess will find some low-level dude, make him the patsy, and skate. It’s the American Way.

  74. 74.

    Brachiator

    @D58826:

    I’m just afraid that by the time the democrats sort this all out Tailgunner Ted will be moving into 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

    Much too early to get worried.

    And the Republicans also still have their little Trump problem to deal with.

  76. 76.

    D58826

    @Roger Moore: Probably not. GM has decided it isn’t safe to use in making metal car parts. It seems like it corrodes the metal. Imagine what it does to a human being. But we believe in freedom. No one is making you drink the water. (snark) seriously Snyder and his whole band of thieves should be set adrift on an ice flow with a big bottle of Flint water to share.

  77. 77.

    jl

    As I understand it, Baud’s plan for the deficit is a drunken rant about his skill at Texas Hold’em, and what he could do with stacks of unmarked bills from the Treasury. The crowds love it.

    “Don’t cry no more, your sugar daddy’s here, and I’m goin’ to buy you all a golden ring, you little fuckers. Money talks and bullshit walks.”

    Brings the house down.

  78. 78.

    JPL

    @Anoniminous: That’s not surprising. It’s easy to be the winner, if you are not having negative campaign ads run against you. I would assume that would change though, if he were the nominee. Just sayin

  83. 83.

    BruceFromOhio

    If the country elects one from the Klown Kar Kavalkade of Fail, then it deserves to fall because we’re too stupid to survive. The Alito Bench LLC and Teahadi Legislature will see to it.

  84. 84.

    Brachiator

    @debbie:

    The link said July 13.

    Ha! I read past the date in the Hamilton graphic. One of the news stories I read did not mention the date, but said “fall.” July is more summer, I believe. Very nice.

    Now they need a movie….

  91. 91.

    Anoniminous

    @JPL:

    If we’re going to talk polling then have to use all available information, not just cherry pick those that support one’s predetermined conclusion.

    Just saying

  92. 92.

    Botsplainer

    @jl:

    Missing most from the Sanders bumper sticker health care talking points is how to deal with the half million people who work directly for health insurers, the other (likely) half million working for providers as insurance clerks, and the ramifications of crushing a service that consists of nearly a third of the shares listed on the S&P 500, including what it does to the pensions, public investment funds, annuities and mutual funds holding those shares.

    Shows that neither he nor his loudest partisans are serious, as this is a decades long transition, with a national commitment that makes Apollo look like a requisition for paper clips.

    Sorry, I’ve shrugged off feeling the Bern.

  94. 94.

    raven

    @Elizabelle: Yea, Halfbreed was the album. “Sacked” is cool, it starts with a phone call from John Mayall firing Keef from the band. Keef passed away a few years back.

  95. 95.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti:

    And Bernistas wonder why many of us consider him the second coming of George McGovern in a national election.

    The Clintonistas told us the same thing about Obama.

    Incidentally, there’s been 90 million new voters created since McGovern lost. Someone is going to have to make sure they’ve all learned the McGovern lesson.

  96. 96.

    Cacti

    @jl:

    I think Krugman’s accusation that it works off of magic asterisks is misleading.

    Krugman’s analysis of it is kind in comparison to Ezra Klein’s review of it on Vox.

    But the criticisms are essentially the same. It assumes a savings of $10 trillion over the next decade, without spelling out how they will be achieved. Leading EK to call it a “puppies and rainbows approach to single payer”.

  97. 97.

    Gimlet

    http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_occupiers_recr.html

    BURNS — Members of the armed standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife refuge said Monday that they’ve recruited ranchers to stop paying the federal government for the right to run cattle on public land.

    The occupation organizers are planning a “signing ceremony” Friday where ranchers will sign documents renouncing their obligation to pay fees tied to the federal grazing allotments, said spokesman LaVoy Finicum.

    Two ranchers – one from Oregon and one from New Mexico – have agreed to sign the papers and “I hope they bring a couple more in tow,” Finicum said.

  99. 99.

    jl

    @Botsplainer: That is a transitional costs. You could just pay them off or throw money at them for retraining and still save a lot of money. . Most of them have general skills that can be used in other industries at comparable pay. It’s not like they are coal miners or tobacco farmers. If we go from 16.5 percent of GDP to 11 percent of GDP on healthcare, that 5.5 percent of GDP is not going to just disappear. Consumers will use that 5.5 percent of GDP to buy stuff they would like when they don’t have to pay for outrageously over priced and lower quality health care.

    A lot of higher paid stats, actuarial and accounting labor in the health insurance industry would be contracted to administer the Medicare for all system.

  101. 101.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    The Clintonistas told us the same thing about Obama.

    Incidentally, there’s been 90 million new voters created since McGovern lost. Someone is going to have to make sure they’ve all learned the McGovern lesson.

    Can you point me to a similar poll from 2008 where 50% of respondents said they would definitely not vote for a hypothetical black candidate?

    If not, your comparison is specious and tu quoque.

  102. 102.

    Pogonip

    @NotMax: That’s right; Tarzan’s a Brit cit. i’d forgotten; it’s been a long time since I read Tarzan of the Apes. So I blew the dust off, flipped through, and I can happily report that Jane IS a birthright American.

    Baud/Jane 2016. Because It’s A Jungle Out There.

    (Tarzan has just issued a statement that he will support his wife in every way possible, including bodily as they swing through the trees, and that, although he intends to devote his full time to the Baud/Jane campaign, after the election he has every intention of resuming his musical pursuits.

    Gitarzan, and his jungle band…)

  103. 103.

    WereBear

    In bed, feeling terribly crappy, had to bail on a work social function. Watching stupid movies. Will say that if a big eye comes out of a mountain and stars at you, you should run away. Don’t know why this is an elusive concept to the people hanging around in their best outdoor wear. They may be semi-good looking but are too stupid to live.

    Regards the Flint water situation, those responsible should be moved to Flint until they sort this out. I want to see prosecutions and jail time. When people are thrown in jail for driving with a tail light out I think some should get a couple of decades for destroying thousands of lives.

    Is that unreasonable?

  104. 104.

    Roger Moore

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    To me, what Snyder and his minions did was no different.

    No, what he did is worse. Companies are supposed to be interested in profits, so we expect that we’re going to have to hold them up to scrutiny. Politicians are supposed to be looking out for the common good, so they’re even worse when they screw us over in the name of money.

  106. 106.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Steeplejack:

    Well, I confessed here several weeks ago that I know virtually nothing about rock music or musicians, so I wouldn’t have been the least bit surprised to learn that I had made an unwarranted assumption.

  108. 108.

    geg6

    Martin Longman wrote a post today over at the WaMo that pretty much says everything I’ve been thinking about the whole who to vote for in the primary conundrum. Can’t ever link from my phone, but go and read it, if you care. That’s pretty much where I stand.

  109. 109.

    JPL

    @WereBear: It sounds as though you are making a political statement. During a time of crisis, shouldn’t we focus on the children.

    I hate Snyder.

  110. 110.

    D58826

    @Botsplainer: While I think single-payer is the way we SHOULD have gone years ago, that horse is out of the barn and over the hill. There are too many entrenched interest groups and to many jobs to easily move to a single payer system today. I suspect that in Europe and Canada these system were developed before the special interests became an impediment. That’s not to say that there are no special interests in Europe its just easier to start if there is nothing else in its place already. It was ‘relatively easy’ to start Medicare because the private sector didn’t want to cover the sick old folks. There was no profit in it at rates that the elderly could afford. Medicare was able to move into that vacuum. There was still quite a bit of opposition even with that. Reagan’s ‘when men were free’ speech is just one example.

  111. 111.

    Brachiator

    @jl:

    Probably too much to hope for detailed plans for something like healthcare in a political campaign, though.

    This is true. But Sanders has been an independent socialist for so long that I frankly find it surprising that he does not have a preferred model and some detailed plans somewhere as to what his proposal would look like and what it would cost.

    Again, to me he comes across as a crank who keeps shouting about how we should do just like Europe and other advanced countries do.

    If I had been a debate moderator, I would have asked him to describe how universal health care actually works in any country he might care to name.

  117. 117.

    eemom

    @jl:

    Based on what I’ve seen so far, I respectfully disagree. Bernie’s single payor “plan” seems to be total pie-in-the-sky unicorn and pony shit in terms of political reality. And to the extent it undermines the real progress made under Obamacare, fuck it….and fuck Bernie, for being willing to risk that.

    I don’t say this lightly. I like Bernie, his sincerity, his passion. But throwing the hard-won gains of Obamacare under the bus for something that is utterly unrealistic and unachievable is a deal breaker AFAIC.

  119. 119.

    mdblanche

    Take these anecdata for what they’re worth, but tonight at dinner I was sitting between two different parties discussing the debate, so apparently some people were watching on Sunday. The one person whose verdict I overheard was won over by Clinton.

  120. 120.

    Baud

    @Pogonip:

    Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh…

    Jungle life, I’m far away from nowhere
    On my own like Tarzan Boy
    Hide and seek, I play along while rushing ‘cross the forest
    Monkey business on a sunny afternoon
    Jungle life, I’m living in the open
    Native beat that carries on
    Burning bright, a fire that blows a signal to the sky
    I sit and wonder, does the message get to you?

    Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh…

    Night to night
    Gimme the other, gimme the other
    Chance tonight
    Gimme the other, gimme the other
    Night to night
    Gimme the other, gimme the other world
    Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh…

  121. 121.

    Botsplainer

    @jl:

    How long does that 500,000 to 1,000,000 (most of whom are middle income earners) have to remain jobless for the new positions to be created? They’re working all over the country, as well. How will you pay for them to move? What effect will the dislocation have on their communities and other businesses there?

    Also, you didn’t address the effect of gutting the value of 154 of 500 blue chip index stocks on critical pension, annuity and retirement investments.

    That’s the sort of gap that is left by the Bern and his cunning plan. He makes Blackadder look like a genius.

  122. 122.

    Mnemosyne

    Building my new desk was going okay until I managed to lean on something and break it. Luckily, it’s a non-weight-bearing divider, so I can glue it back together and just be annoyed that something looks bad at the back of the desk. This is one of the few times that I end up channeling my now-late father, so G and I are in separate rooms until I chill out a bit more.

  123. 123.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: I’m sure if they misrepresented Obama as something he wasn’t, in the same way they called Sanders a socialist, the polling numbers for Obama would have been much worse. Even so, I don’t think Sanders will cruise to victory easily, just like I don’t think Clinton will and I didn’t think Obama would either time. No one gets a guarantee but why should a totally made-up electability argument mean anything? Normal people pick a candidate who most closely aligns with their political values.

  125. 125.

    jl

    @Brachiator: I’ve read news stories with much more detail, for example, what the policies would look like, and that there would be a separate insurance market for supplemental care policies.But looks like Sanders has intentionally chosen to not try to compete with HRC on wonkiness, and campaign on the big vision. I think that is a mistake. Just as I think HRC trying some GOP-lite style attacks on Sanders’ is a mistake for her.

    But what the hell do I know? Both are far more successful politicians that I could ever dream of being.

  127. 127.

    Brachiator

    @D58826:

    I know but watched them snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (with help from SCOTUS and Ralph[h Nadar) in 2000.

    Yeah, but we also watched Obama kick their butts soundly in 2008 and 2012.

  129. 129.

    WaterGirl

    @lamh36: Be still my beating heart! I liked everything he said, too. But damn, he is one beautiful man with such a beautiful voice. And a brain and a heart! sigh.

  130. 130.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    I am, of course, SUPER EXCITED about this. If you didn’t see it, Vulture.com had a great group interview with the supporting cast, including Lesle Odom Jr, Chrisopher Jackson, Renee Elise Goldsberry, and Jasmine Cephas Jones.

    Also, LMM was chosen to read Dr. King’s “Beyond Vietnam” speech at today’s observances.

  132. 132.

    Roger Moore

    @D58826:

    It seems like it corrodes the metal. Imagine what it does to a human being.

    Not necessarily a whole lot; people are much more corrosion resistant than most metal is. For example, salt water is notably corrosive to the kinds of steel car companies like to use in auto bodies, but it is pretty harmless to humans.

    The worry with the water in Flint is that it’s corroding the metal in pipes and thus putting toxic metals into the water supply. Inorganic lead compounds are not readily absorbed through the skin, so just skin contact isn’t likely to be a big problem. OTOH, inhalation is a potential risk, so there may be problems with showering in lead-containing water. But drinking and cooking with the water is by far the biggest risk.

  134. 134.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I’m sure if they misrepresented Obama as something he wasn’t, in the same way they called Sanders a socialist, the polling numbers for Obama would have been much worse.

    The poll didn’t include any candidate. It was just a question of would you/wouldn’t you vote for __________.

    The identifiers and the yes/no numbers were as follows:

    Catholic(93/6)
    Black (92/7)
    Woman (92/8)
    Hispanic (91/8)
    Jew (91/7)
    Mormon (81/18)
    Gay or Lesbian (74/24)
    Evangelical Christian (73/25)
    Muslim (60/38)
    Atheist (58/40)
    Socialist (47/50)

  135. 135.

    JPL

    @Mnemosyne: Several decades ago, one of my sons threw a tennis ball for the golden retriever in the house. The dog pulled off a Waterford vase from an end table and the ball hit a chandelier that caused a piece to fall and chip an expensive crystal bowl. I was furious but everything was fixable, sorta. I learned a valuable lesson, those are only things. It’s not worth choosing things over people and dogs. Of course, the son learned not to throw a ball in the house, sorta.

  137. 137.

    Brachiator

    @jl:

    I’ve read news stories with much more detail, for example, what the policies would look like, and that there would be a separate insurance market for supplemental care policies

    I’ve read the news stories too. But I’m not the one saying “forget the Democrats, forget what has already been done. Let’ blow it all up and do my plan.” And no details, no costs. From a relative unknown on the national scale. I’m not seeing much vision, here.

  138. 138.

    jl

    @Botsplainer: The entire insurance industry, health and life and everything else is only 2.5 percent of GDP. We could buy out the whole thing and still have 3 percent of GDP for other stuff if we got down from US to Netherlands for Swiss healthcare spending.

    I just don’t see it as a major problem, if the transition was done gradually.
    And even with single payer, would probably still need a health insurance industry for supplemental care policies.

  139. 139.

    Mnemosyne

    @JPL:

    I get WAY more upset at my own mistakes than other people’s mistakes, but watching me curse at myself is upsetting to people who care about me, which is why I’m chilling in a separate room.

    I really should have stopped for a snack and a rest about half an hour before I did, but I wanted to move on to the next part and pushed myself too hard. Result: meltdown.

  140. 140.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: @Cacti: Ah, so you are the one who decided Bernie Sanders is no-name Socialist that 50% of respondents won’t vote for. Sorry, I misunderstood.

    Yes, if Bernie Sanders can somehow turn into and remain No-Name Socialist for the next 8-10 months, he will probably lose the primary and the general.

    So we agree there. Now, based on your specious electability argument, isn’t it clear we should be nominating O’Malley?

  141. 141.

    Cacti

    @Brachiator:

    I’ve read the news stories too. But I’m not the one saying “forget the Democrats, forget what has already been done. Let’ blow it all up and do my plan.” And no details, no costs. From a relative unknown on the national scale. I’m not seeing much vision, here.

    Imagine for a moment, Bernie is the Dem nominee.

    In the general, you’d have both the D and R candidate running to “repeal and replace” the Affordable Care Act.

  142. 142.

    Sherparick1

    This year already really sucks. David Bowie, Alan Rickman, and now Glen Frey. I think I will go to bed and sleep to 2017.

  143. 143.

    Pogonip

    @Baud: On Saturday night
    They need some excitement
    Jane gets right
    And the monkey gets tight
    And their voices unite
    In the pale moonlight:
    “BAUD/JANE 2016!”

    Now, THAT’S a campaign rally. You’ll blow Trump right out of the water.

  144. 144.

    jl

    @Brachiator: From an economists viewpoint, I see same problem with HRC and Sanders’ drug proposals, just that HRC used more jargon to give the impression of more wonk.

    Anyway, I agree that Sanders proposal is too vague and I think it is a mistake to got that route.

  146. 146.

    WaterGirl

    @Mnemosyne: Not to self: leaning is bad. At least you only broke a non-critical wooden piece. I feel especially bad for the BJ family member who leaned into the washing machine and broke a rib. Can’t recall who that was – I have slept since then – but I still feel bad for them.

  147. 147.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Nope, just pointing that the Socialist moniker is viewed far from favorably at the national level.

    I know the supporters of a particular “Democratic Socialist” don’t like to hear about it, but there it is.

  148. 148.

    muddy

    @Botsplainer: It’s no wonder health care costs are so high when 1 out of every 300 citizens is an medical insurance employee.

    I feel bad for them. I was a draftsman, you know by hand with ink. Stupid computers ruined that job in the late 80s. I haven’t had an office job since. No one cares about penmanship in the modern age.

  150. 150.

    Brachiator

    @Pogonip:

    Wait till they find out that Tarzan’s pet elephant exceeds the 20-pound weight limit.

    On the other hand, it is almost always the elephant in the room.

  154. 154.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Pogonip: When I mentioned her injury, I was wondering if she was related to Cole(a Korean branch of the Cole family?).

  156. 156.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: I don’t disagree with you and you aren’t truthtelling. I’m just pointing out the same electability argument is made about every Democratic candidate that runs every time, including Hillary. You think this particular electability argument has legs. A bunch of PUMAs thought the same thing last time.

    I’m not a HRC hater. If she gets the nomination, I can’t imagine a scenario where I won’t vote for her over Cruz. But why would I not support the candidate in the primary who most closely aligns with my values? Why would anyone not do that?

  158. 158.

    Elie

    @Botsplainer: Folks keep missing this very important consideration. Every time it’s brought up first there is no response then they go back to their initial rationalizations. People who should know better continue to overlook this huge issue.

  159. 159.

    Suzanne

    @Botsplainer: Agreed. I was leaning Bernie up until, well, about Friday of last week. And I still think single-payer is better.

    But ultimately I don’t care who the president is. I only care about enacting policy that helps people. I am increasingly unconvinced that Sanders is going to be effective in that pursuit. I think he’s been a great part of this race, though.

  160. 160.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Corner Stone: You, my friend, have been a decades-long HRC booster. What is it like to now be warmly enveloped in the zeitgeist of Balloon-Juice? You’ve gotta be feeling a little vindication, right?

  161. 161.

    WaterGirl

    @BillinGlendaleCA: How is she doing? My sister cracked 3 ribs in a car accident and it hurt for a long, long time. :-(

    I tried to go back to my original comment and change “them” to “her” since I at least remembered that it was someone’s wife, but FYWP wouldn’t let me edit my own comment, just a second after I’d saved it.

  164. 164.

    ? Martin

    @Botsplainer:

    How long does that 500,000 to 1,000,000 (most of whom are middle income earners) have to remain jobless for the new positions to be created? They’re working all over the country, as well. How will you pay for them to move? What effect will the dislocation have on their communities and other businesses there?

    There is no way to protect workers in obsolete industries. You can provide a safety net and retraining for new industries but once those jobs are obsoleted, they are obsoleted.

    Consider that there are 3.5 million truck drivers in the US. Consider that Freightliner is already piloting self-driving semis. That’s 3.5 million jobs about to be eliminated. Why? Because they are shitty, non-value add jobs. There’s another 800K postal workers primed to be automated away. There’s 700,000 bus drivers – ⅔ of whose sole responsibility is driving your kid to and from school.

    People really need to wake the fuck up about their own career future and and start backing government support for training programs and new initiatives. A lot of infrastructure changes are going to be needed, and these folks could be part of it.

    But if you can cut out 40% of the costs of health care – costs that do jack fucking shit to make people healthier – then they are going to be cut one way or another. No point resisting that.

  165. 165.

    Steeplejack

    @raven:

    Okay, you explain it the next time nobody knows what the hell you’re talking about.

    Now I may go listen to my CD of Halfbreed, which I own. Good evening, sir. I said good evening!

  169. 169.

    Cacti

    @Suzanne:

    But ultimately I don’t care who the president is. I only care about enacting policy that helps people. I am increasingly unconvinced that Sanders is going to be effective in that pursuit.

    Unlike yourself, that’s been my concern with Bernie from the start. After 25 years of having single payer healthcare as a pet issue, he didn’t have a policy paper ready to go on how it would be achieved, and when he finally released it, it was full of vagaries.

    It was exactly the sort of policy paper one might expect from a career backbencher. It’s rather like the story of the dog who chased cars, then finally caught one.

  170. 170.

    Corner Stone

    @? Martin: Truck drivers, like Big Ag, trains and the automobile industry are all national security issues. That industry is not going away in any soon decade.

  172. 172.

    Mike J

    @ Martin:

    But if you can cut out 40% of the costs of health care – costs that do jack fucking shit to make people healthier – then they are going to be cut one way or another.

    Doesn’t ACA limit that to 15%?

  174. 174.

    Corner Stone

    It’s amazing. If HRC praises or even just mentions President Obama then she is riding his coat tails and pandering. If she mentions something she would do differently then she is attacking President Obama.
    Huh.

  175. 175.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @WaterGirl:

    Wasn’t that Billin’s wife? I might be misremembering….

    ETA: Should have scrolled to #162 before commenting. Sigh.

  179. 179.

    Corner Stone

    @Pogonip: Cole would be bending over to help him up off an icy sidewalk and somehow fall over railing into a freezing stream.

  181. 181.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Corner Stone: Just no. If HRC was doing that, no one would care. But she wasn’t doing that. She was doing the Obama Purity Test that blog denizens have subjected us to for eight years. “Us” being you too.

  183. 183.

    Mnemosyne

    @WaterGirl:

    So far, I’ve bruised my knee and scraped my hand pretty badly, but no permanent damage. Getting ready to dive back in, hopefully without loss of blood.

    @Elmo:

    Yep, poor G gets a little freaked out. That’s why I usually try and do these projects on my own as much as possible.

    Though I did have to laugh when my glasses came apart and fell off. Because of course they would.

  184. 184.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Just no. If HRC was doing that, no one would care. But she wasn’t doing that. She was doing the Obama Purity Test that blog denizens have subjected us to for eight years. “Us” being you too.

    Bernie has been with the hashtag activists the entire way, up to and including calls to primary the sitting Democratic POTUS.

    Now who could foresee that being a problem for someone with designs on the 2016 Democratic nomination for President?

    (raises hand)

  185. 185.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: I think all the terrible things Clinton and her 2008 campaign said about Obama would make the Bernie stuff pale in comparison. What do you think?

  186. 186.

    Roger Moore

    @Cacti:

    when he finally released it, it was full of vagaries.

    FWIW, you probably mean “it was unbelievable vague”. “Vagary” is an unpredictable or erratic action./pedant

  187. 187.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I think all the terrible things Clinton and her 2008 campaign said about Obama would make the Bernie stuff pale in comparison. What do you think?

    I think Bernie’s dearth of minority support in the current polling data holds your answer.

  189. 189.

    WaterGirl

    @Mnemosyne: I am so very not handy that if I tried those projects on my own I would either end up in a rage of frustration or would end up rocking in a corner. Luckily I have some handy friends.

    And, as I like to say when I talk of this or of my completel inability to find my way out of a paper bag (absolutely no sense of direction)… I have many other fine qualities, but this is not one of them. :-)

  190. 190.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: Again, we have a parallel from 2008 when Clinton had majority minority support and Obama garnered it. If you’re hanging your hat on that, you’d better hope she can hang on to it better this time. I personally don’t know how that will go. I don’t know the calculus that goes into supporting a candidate who was part of the Sister Souljah moment versus a candidate who marched with MLK.

  191. 191.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Again, we have a parallel from 2008 when Clinton had majority minority support and Obama garnered it.

    Not exactly.

    Clinton won the Hispanic vote handily in the 2008 primary, even after African American support had shifted decisively to Obama.

  192. 192.

    Feebog

    @? Martin:

    It’s been a long long time since the Postal Service had 800 thousand employees, let alone that many they could “automate” out of existence. Maybe you should do a little research before you post, because your faux numbers undercut your arguments.

  193. 193.

    Patricia Kayden

    “Hillary Clinton understands that, which is why she took so much care in the NBC debate to identify her approach to regulation of Wall Street with Obama’s; to defend Obamacare in contrast to Sanders’ advocacy of a single-payer health care system; to remind Democrats she was a major architect of Obama’s foreign policy; and to refuse opportunities to separate herself from Obama even though some consultants probably think she’ll need to do that to win a general election..”

    Good. This is much smarter than what Gore did when he tried to run away from President Clinton’s record in 2000. Look where that got him.

  194. 194.

    Capri

    @JPL: Here’s the silver lining to the entire lead fiasco. The situation happened because Michigan’s republican government voted to allow Snyder. to unilaterally declare cities in trouble and appoint managers who can do whatever they want – all other local authorities be damned. So the decision to switch water sources was made over the objections of the major and other local officials by a middle manger who only answered to Snyder. No doubt ALEC and other regressive republicans were watching Michigan closely. This has turned into such a cock-up that hopefully it scares off any other states from trying this, and may help Michigan to throw the R’s out and restore democracy.

  195. 195.

    eemom

    Another point about Berniecare, which Krugman and others point out, is that it plays right into the hands of the “death panel” and “rationing” memes, because for single payor to work requires that everyone doesn’t get every fucking MRI that they want, all the time. Not to mention the middle class tax hike. Not to mention the millions fortunate enough to have employer health insurance having to forego it. Not to mention a whole shit ton of other things that the republican gazillion dollar propaganda machine would have a fucking field day with — AND be joined by the insurance and pharma lobbies that were on board with Obamacare.

    Ferfuxsake, what planet is anybody living on who thinks this is a good thing??

    Before this, I honestly didn’t care whether Hillz or Bernie was the candidate. But this, as they say, is a game changer. Bernie care could cost us the election.

  198. 198.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Cacti: A bit of the timeline and the current situation in Flint is here – an appeal for funds to help distribute water, get people tested for lead, etc.

    There are some absolutely horrifying pictures of the water. :-(

    […]

    Almost immediately after the city switched over to the Flint River in April 2014, residents became concerned and angered about the appearance, smell, and taste of the new water supply. For more than a year, Flint residents voiced their concerns and their distrust of the water through all of the proper democratic avenues; however, city officials consistently disregarded their concerns and continued to claim that the new water source was completely safe for consumption. It took a whistleblowing doctor from Flint to challenge the government’s claims that the Flint River water was safe for consumption in September of 2015. In a press conference on September 24th 2015, Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha demonstrated how lead levels in Flint children had doubled since the switch was made to the Flint River.

    After mounting pressure, the city changed the water supply back to Detroit in October 2015, and the people of Flint were assured by the state’s regulatory bodies that the water was now safe to drink. However, the corrosive Flint River had done permanent damage to the aging infrastructure of Flint over the course of a year and half, causing lead and other contaminants to leach on to the newly acquired clean water. Thus, even with the switch back to the Detroit water system, Flint residents are still at risk of lead poisoning and other contaminants in their water due to the damage the Flint River did to their water supply lines and infrastructure.

    Lead poisoning causes irreversible brain damage, stunted growth, and more. The people of Flint are given water that is dangerous, forcing them to use bottled water or special filters to remove lead and other contaminants. Adding further insult to injury, Flint residents pay the highest water bills in the entire country. Moreover, the city expects residents to continue to pay for their poisonous and contaminated water. The cost to repair the water infrastructure is over $1 billion, and there is NO relief in site for these residents until this happens. Now, there are new reports of Legionaries Disease that may be caused by the water contamination. The Governor has issued a formal apology, declared a state of emergency and the National Guard has come to assist the local residents.

    […]

    It looks like a good group, but I haven’t given anything to them yet. I don’t know if there’s a more direct way to help people there for one thing.

    GM and other industry in the city should be screaming for the problem to be fixed, and should have been screaming about the dangers many months ago. GM still has 2800+ employees in their Flint plant. They still have reasonably strong medical insurance policies for their employees (AFAIK) – it’s going to cost them a bundle over time. Why they’ve (seemingly) just sat back while this happened is infuriating. As it was, they didn’t say they would no longer use it until October 2014 – 6 months after the switch-over.

    Grr…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  199. 199.

    tomtofa

    @Iowa Old Lady:
    It’s not that the defective water they sent through the pipes contained lead; it’s that the water corroded the pipes so that the lead in the pipes entered the water stream. At this point it doesn’t matter what water they send through the pipes, it will contain lead.

    I hope the investigation uncovers documentation about how long they knew this was happening.

  200. 200.

    jl

    @eemom: That is PR, not reality. Other countries have health care expenditures at 11 percent of GDP or so, and better population healthcare outcomes, without rationing and without long waiting lists for elective procedures.

    If we tried to cut US health care expenditure in half, go from 16.5 to between 8 and 9 percent, then there are some countries that do with rationing, and most of them have waiting lists for elective procedures.

    But to cut 35 to 40 percent, and get to Netherlands of Swiss levels, both are known for doing it without rationing, and without waiting lines.

    Now, it is true that if you want full choice of treatments, and comfort amenities in hospital, you need a separate policy for supplemental care. But those are easy to get.

    Maybe it is just me, but the mere fact that a public health insurance policy does not pay or anything and everything is not the same as rationing, as long as there are alternative means to get what is excluded from the public policy. Of course, you need money to pay for it. But that is exactly the what it was before PPACA for every damn piece of health care in the US.

    I prefer to reserve the word ‘rationing’ for cases where public policy does not pay, and it is not easy to buy supplemental care policy and gain access to provider who will deliver that care. UK would be an example.

    Edit: that means of course, that Krugman is wrong on that point. There I said it, yes I did. Kthug: wrong on that point.

  206. 206.

    gogol's wife

    Is anybody watching War and Peace? It’s somewhat disconcerting to have it interrupted by Viagara commercials. But it’s pretty good!

  209. 209.

    eemom

    @jl:

    That is PR, not reality.

    That’s my point. PR — with billions and billions of dollars poured into it by industries and individuals who couldn’t give less of a shit about objective reality — IS the reality of the world we live in. Don’t know if you’re old enough to remember how the insurance industry used PR to crush the Clintons’ attempt at HCR in 1994, but you surely remember how the ACA just barely squeaked though a Democratic controlled Congress in 2010 — WITH the support of the insurance industry.

  210. 210.

    J R in WV

    @srv:

    I’ve been watching political ads critically for over 50 years, and that is one of the worst commercials I’ve ever seen. You can barely understand the audio, and the video probably cost $500 tops.

    That said, Ted really served up the foundation for a whole series of hard-hitting commercials. This one isn’t one of those, because of the terrible production values.

  211. 211.

    gwangung

    I think there’s a bit too much handwaving about the gaps in Sanders’ policy proposal. For someone who supposedly has been a leader in this (and for someone who’s supposedly a serious Presidential candidate), it has a fair amount of hope and pray, and very little on implementation (I mean for gawd’s sake, Bernie, you’re running for President, you damn well better have a thought out plan of getting to where you want to go…..)

  212. 212.

    jl

    @J R in WV: Some of those make-it-yourself toons are pretty good, if you can overlook the goofy production values. I’ve seen hilarious ones made by grad students, professors and kids.

    But, I guess that level of effort is above the Rand Paul campaign. Anyway, I have seen much better using the same or similar programs.

  213. 213.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @J R in WV: Rand Paul himself spent the two hours he had free from skipping the last Republican debate to make that ad and you just shit all over it.

  215. 215.

    Zinsky

    @Linda Featheringill: Linda, most Americans couldn’t define “socialism” if their lives depended on it, but they know it is bad anyway. I always challenge people by asking “can you show me where the Constitution or Declaration of Independence refers to the United States as a “capitalist” country? (Hint: it’s not in either one)

  218. 218.

    Princess

    @jl: FWIW, NL does not have a single payer system. The healthcare system in NL is a lot more like Obamacare (if all the states bought into it, of course, which they haven’t) than single payer.

    I am a big single payer system fan, but it would never, never, never work in the States. For one, 75% of the people would hate it. For another, I doubt it would pass a constitutional test.

  219. 219.

    Satby

    @efgoldman: yes, thank you. I’m for single payer too, but to hand wave away the dislocation of jobs with a “sucks to be them, we didn’t worry about buggy makers” attitude really ignores the trend of job loss all over this country in all sorts of industries. People have almost no job security as it is, and that’s a powerful impediment to change.

  220. 220.

    Satby

    @Capri: I live here (not for long) and I suspect that the blame for Flint’s troubles will be laid at the residents feet by their fellow citizens of the asylum that it MI. They’ll keep electing Republicans.

  222. 222.

    different-church-lady

    @Corner Stone:

    It’s amazing. If HRC praises or even just mentions President Obama then she is riding his coat tails and pandering. If she mentions something she would do differently then she is attacking President Obama.

    And either way, she’s attacking Sanders unfairly.

  223. 223.

    jl

    @Princess: You are correct. I didn’t mean to imply that. Neither Netherlands nor Switzerland have single payer systems. Netherlands looks enough like a relatively conservative solution like the PPACA that Arnold threw a health care summit in California trying to get a Netherlands style health care for us here in the Golden State when he was the governor. Another reason the CA GOP came to loathe him.

    I was arguing that Krugman was wrong in saying that savings of the magnitude Sanders was talking about could be achieved without strict rationing of health care or long waiting lists for elective procedures. So, what kind of financing system each of the other countries mentioned uses was not part of my argument.

    It is true, however, that some economists say Netherlands is moving slowly towards what is effectively a single payer system. But I agree it would be wrong to say it is one now.

  225. 225.

    jl

    @jl:

    I meant to type

    I was arguing that Krugman was wrong in saying that savings of the magnitude Sanders is talking about could be achieved ONLY BY IMPOSING strict rationing of health care and long waiting lists for elective procedures.

  226. 226.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @jl: Political attacks that instigate fear of health care rationing should be recognized as conservative agitprop, regardless of who makes them.

  229. 229.

    mclaren

    It goes without saying that Hillary Clinton has no chance of winning the Democratic nomination.

  230. 230.

    mclaren

    @Corner Stone:

    PRESS TOADY: “So, is Bernie Sanders the focus of communist evil in the modern world, or just a disruptive destroyer or the tottering nearly-dead Democratic party? Let’s have an open round table and explore the issue dispassionately.”

    CNN NEWS SPECIAL: SANDERS — GREAT SATAN OR HELPLESS LUNATIC?

    Standard stuff. Pay no attention, it’s the usual Manchurian-candidate disinformation.

    “Donald Trump is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life.”

    Unfortunately for all the hacks and flacks and propagandists, the president is determined not by press clippings or sneering denunciations or onanistic pundits gibbering about “electability,” but by the number of actual votes cast by actual voters in November. Which means Hillary Clinton and The Donald are toast.

  231. 231.

    mclaren

    @Cacti:

    Unlike yourself, that’s been my concern with Bernie from the start. After 25 years of having single payer healthcare as a pet issue, he didn’t have a policy paper ready to go on how it would be achieved, and when he finally released it, it was full of vagaries.

    It was exactly the sort of policy paper one might expect from a career backbencher. It’s rather like the story of the dog who chased cars, then finally caught one.

    Yes, a policy paper “filled with vagaries,” almost as full of holes as…FDR’s when he got elected in 1933. What matters out here in the real world is not policy papers, of course, since no policy paper ever survives contact with real politics in the real world. What matters is whether the chief executive is an energetic flexible pragmatic and dynamic leader willing to try enough stuff and do enough workarounds and kudges to actually get a working policy in place at the end of the day.

    Naturally, the various acolytes of learned helplessness will now assure that “single payer health care is impossible in America, it can never happen, it can’t be done, it’s pointless, it’s a waste of time.” Bullshit. Every other advanced first-world nation in the world has enacted single-payer, so when you tell us “it’s impossible” you’re just making yourself an object of ridicule. People are pointing their fingers at you and laughing out loud. Go away, stop embarrassing yourself.

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