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You are here: Home / Elections / I Can No Longer Rationally Discuss The Clinton Campaign / And We’re There

And We’re There

by | 276 Comments

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The daily ginned up bullshit by the Clinton campaign has me right back where we were in 2008. I fucking hate the primary season. In my ideal world, regardless who wins, the Clinton diehards who keep ginning up nonsense on a daily basis would still feel like they lost. Today’s outrage is that Sanders saying Hillary’s campaign lacks excitement is explicitly sexist.

How? Beats the hell out of me.

I seriously don’t think I can handle more than a few more months of this shit, so please let either Bernie or Hillary (and that’s in alphabetical order so don’t tell me I am implicitly rooting for Sanders) wins quick.

Reader Interactions

276Comments

  2. 2.

    Corner Stone

    You just can’t help yourself, Cole. It’s ok. Never expect an animal to go against its nature.

  6. 6.

    JCJ

    (and that’s in alphabetical order so don’t tell me I am implicitly rooting for Sanders)

    Oh yeah? Then why didn’t you say Clinton or Sanders? Then her name would have been first!

    ETA: As usual, Baud is faster and with more wit.

    ETAA: and Smedley etc.

  9. 9.

    Renie

    at least John isn’t pushing a Bloomberg run. Bloomberg’s ego is unbelievable. Threatening to run unless the democrats get behind Hillary

  10. 10.

    Wiesman

    Yeah, it’s bad. I am firmly in the camp of willing to support either Hillary or Bernie and think antis on either side are acting dumb. I’m probably leaning closer to Hillary; my wife is firmly in Bernie’s camp. I’m not saying they are identical and that it doesn’t matter who wins. I’m just saying that tearing either one down because you prefer the other is dumb.

    Anyway, an obviously-too-young-to-remember-2000 friend of mine posted on FB that he was thinking of supporting a 3rd-party Bloomberg run if Hillary got the nomination, and I unloaded with this:

    “Yes, Tom, we all know that you are much too pure to consider Hillary Clinton a progressive, you liberal edgelord, you. However, given your expressed support for a billionaire conservative like Bloomberg who would gladly dismantle the safety net, I’m afraid I’m pulling YOUR progressive cred card, so your opinions on whether Hillary is progressive enough don’t matter. Go back to the GOP and stop concern trolling us liberals, conservatard.”

    Accomplished nothing, but felt good I guess.

  11. 11.

    NotMax

    and that’s in alphabetical order

    al-phabetical.

    So you’re calling them out for being secretly Muslim?

    :)

  14. 14.

    Adam L Silverman

    It is something amazing that every other liberal democracy in the world can run an election in six weeks or less, no matter how large or small the country is, and we are currently running a two year election cycle for President and a yearly one for members of the House. I fully expect that the media, in order to keep their revenues high, will start decision 2020 before inauguration day 2017.

  16. 16.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    So Lord High Gatekeeper John G Cole has decided that Martin O’Malley’s no longer running?

    Fucking super-elite bloggers who can’t wait for THE PEOPLE to cast their votes

  20. 20.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: a David Brock tweet, or a Peter Daou brain fart, or something somebody overheard Chelsea say at SoulCycle?

    I’m spit-ballin’ here

  22. 22.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Baud: Its a very post-modern deconstruction of the length of the primary process in specific and the presidential election in general.

  25. 25.

    peach flavored shampoo

    @Punchy: Damm, thats some seriously Onion-esque legislating. Again, how can The Onion compete when reality surpasses their satire?

  26. 26.

    Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA

    A friend in the UK said a couple of days ago (paraphrasing), “Wait, your election isn’t until November?” He’d been hearing so much about it for so long that he figured the campaigning had to be finished soon.

    Nope.

  33. 33.

    Punchy

    @Adam L Silverman: linking on iPad broken. As soon as I hit the link button, the site crashes, auto-reloads, and the comment completely disappears. Happened thrice, so no fluke. The article is in the KC Star, if anyone cares.

  36. 36.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Glidwrith: Here’s the correct link:
    http://www.kansascity.com/latest-news/article56364875.html

    And that’s a solution looking for a problem. What seems to have happened here, which is similar to something else I saw reported today dealing with firearms, is that, in this case, the NRA is capitalizing on the fact that most everyone, including state legislators, don’t understand how the government actually works.

    Is it possible that the FDIC could lean on banks to sever ties with all sorts of legitimate businesses? Sure, its possible. Is it probable? Not very likely. The regulation is intended to crack down on abusive pay day lenders and rent to own places that are basically operating like loan sharks. The banks aren’t going to do anything without FDIC top cover as they’d be susceptible to lawsuits and the FDIC doesn’t want any more hassles than they already have from the financial sector. Why would they want to borrow trouble from the firearms sector? The simple answer is they don’t want to.

  39. 39.

    Mary G

    @Adam L Silverman:Pshaw. They’ll start the horse race coverage for 2020 at 12:01 a.m. on Wednesday, November 9 of this year. Except Politico, they will start even earlier to be first.

    ETA: Ruckus got there first.

  40. 40.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    I am seriously disappointed in both Sanders and Clinton. Two old white people,neither with an.interesting story and both with shitty campaigns. Seriously, this is all the fvcking Dems have to offer? WTF? Thanks Obama for having a story and a campaign hard to top.

  41. 41.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Punchy: I just put it up in a comment. I’ve got edit permissions, so I’m going to go into your original comment and fix it there for you.

  43. 43.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Adam L Silverman: Long campaigns go waaaaaay back. Andrew Jackson started running for 1828 the day after the vote in the House that made JQA president. The campaigns were shorter, but what we now call the invisible primary was every bit as long as they are today. And the Democracy, as the Democrats were then known, had their nominating convention for the 1836 election in May of 1835.

    Front-loading and long campaigns have been with us forever.

  44. 44.

    dmsilev

    @John Cole:

    I’m voting for CLINTON OR SANDERS.

    I believe technically you’ll be voting for Clinton XOR Sanders, since voting for both isn’t allowed.

    (not helping?)

  46. 46.

    redshirt

    I’ve not heard anything of this controversy nor anything else the “news” is talking about, as I have no TV and sometimes listen to the radio.

    For me, the state of our nation is great! Local radio news here is mostly informative and helpful. Sports is fun. Dancing is the greatest thing ever.

    I’m voting Hillary.

  47. 47.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Davis X. Machina: I know. But just because something is tradition doesn’t mean I 1) have to like it and 2) we can’t get our crap together and actually act like we’re in the 21st Century.

  48. 48.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It is something amazing that every other liberal democracy in the world can run an election in six weeks or less

    Sometimes we even manage a 4 week election (33 days actually).

    Unfortunately there is always a phony election campaign which precedes it by about 6-9 months.

    We are in one right now. The election is not due until October and yet the media is feverishly speculating over the PM, “will he, won’t he” call an early election. Which the PM always denies right up until the day he visits the Governor-General.

    It’s all very unseemly. Although not quite as grotesque as four year campaigns.

  49. 49.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @dmsilev: Well done.

    (I was trying to come up with something similar. That big honking OR was so tempting…)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  52. 52.

    Kay

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    Thanks. I always like that stuff.

    “It’s assigned by the party based on history, and does not change no matter how many people show up. That means that Sanders could double, triple or even quintuple support in a precinct, but can only win so many delegates there.”

    What does “based on history” mean if it doesn’t mean turnout? History of what?

  54. 54.

    Patricia Kayden

    This too will pass. We’ll laugh about all this brouhaha when the next Democratic President is inaugurated next January.

  58. 58.

    Heliopause

    The daily ginned up bullshit by the Clinton campaign

    And it’s unnecessary,the South Carolina firewall is holding for now. They’re panicking for no good reason and seriously could have afforded the luxury of being nice until after New Hampshire, but leopard, spots, and all.

  60. 60.

    Kropadope

    @Renie:

    Bloomberg’s ego is unbelievable. Threatening to run unless the democrats get behind Hillary

    Just in case you needed more proof that Hillary is the devil.

  63. 63.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Baud:

    President of CauseWired. Columbia lecturer. Journalist, author, blogger, consultant, Mets fan, guitar player, liberal.

    Mets fan says it all, doesn’t it?

    ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  64. 64.

    Roger Moore

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I assume that this reflects paranoia in the firearms industry. They are so worried about Obama that they assume everything that happens in the Obama administration is targeted at them, no matter how obviously it isn’t.

  65. 65.

    redshirt

    @Baud: Oh sure it is.
    1. You choose when to engage it, rather than getting blasted by it.
    2. You can filter your news sources wisely and thus any news you read is news, to be read.

  66. 66.

    David Koch

    Meh.

    U need a thicker skin, Cole.

    this is nothing compared to teh withering Red baiting Sanders would face from the corporate media and gop.

    eta: they might even call him a foreign born, mooslim-terrorist

  67. 67.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @JCJ: Actually, I appreciate the use of first names for both of them. While we’re talking about implicit bias, note how it tends to be “Hillary” but Sanders and O’Malley. The Donald is a special case, and only with “The” preceding the first name, and ¡JEB! chooses to use his initials (handy given a toxic surname). But does the press – or even blogs/their commentariat- talk about Marco, John, (Rafael) Ted, Mike, Rick, or Ben? Baby Doc, fair enough – but again there was a different Dr. Paul candidate. But it’s often “Carly” as opposed to Fiorina.

    So, go Cole on the evenhanded use of first names. Thanks.

  70. 70.

    Roger Moore

    @Davis X. Machina:
    I’m glad somebody brought up Jackson’s 1828 campaign. The main reason we have such long campaigns is because we have regularly scheduled elections. That allows us to have scheduled primaries, etc. Even if we didn’t have formal primaries, they’d be going on behind the scenes.

    The reason most other countries don’t have such long election cycles is because they call elections at unpredictable intervals, with a relatively short time between when the elections are called and when they’re held. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t a lot of electoral politics going on behind the scenes between elections.

  72. 72.

    KS in MA

    Great … And now, would somebody please organize a Freedom Summer that would send scads of (preferably youthful) volunteers into selected states to register scads of likely D voters? Follow-up might include helping them procure the voter ID cards, etc., that they need and making sure they have transportation to the polls in November. Thanks.

  73. 73.

    Baud

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):

    While we’re talking about implicit bias, note how it tends to be “Hillary” but Sanders and O’Malley.

    I think it stems from how the candidates market themselves. Plus, Clinton can be confusing because of Bill. I also see Bernie and Sanders being about 50/50. MOM is almost never referred to by his first name.

    ETA: There are virtues to being a virtual candidate with only one name.

  76. 76.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Roger Moore: Yes and no. My guess its the NRA knows that this will drive donations and state level action, as well as some Congressional, which is good for the NRA. Is there a lot of suspicion and paranoia? Definitely. Some of it is because people just don’t understand how the government works – regardless of which part of it you’re in. Some of it is because people are imbibing Deity knows what as news. Like the loons in Oregon, if your pocket Constitution is the one with Cleon Skousen’s annotations and commentary, then you’d be better off having either a pocket Article’s of Confederation of Confederate States of America Constitution.

  78. 78.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    In all my enthusiasm for blaming Obama for the shitty Dem primary, I forgot to add the customary I will vote in.the general for whichever Dem wins. I am still kind of debating on changing my registration to Repub for the primary to vote for the Huckster or Carson and against McCain. I just don’t know if Mccain or the whackjob he’s running against in.the primary would.be easier to beat.

  79. 79.

    Baud

    @satby:

    If that’s all it’s about that’s pretty weak sauce.

    Yeah, that could be a rotating tag line for Balloon Juice.

  81. 81.

    BruceFromOhio

    Today’s outrage is that Sanders saying Hillary’s campaign lacks excitement is explicitly sexist.

    Why anyone pays any attention to the relentless river of endless fucking horseshit eludes me. The twits, the press releases, the posts, the talk shows, the cable news robots, the infinite spew of content because that’s how the game is played now… ick. What a waste of oxygen.
    Does it make any difference to what you do, what you think, what you choose?
    Turn it off, and breathe deep.

  87. 87.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    so are my posts disappearing because I’m using the name of the rather obscure blogger (or tweeter) Cole seems to be referring to in the original post? the one who shares a last name with Sherlock’s roommate?

  96. 96.

    Gvg

    I can’t find anything about a Clintor response to Sanders about sexism or misogyny more recent than November. I did find quite a bit back then that had their supporters sniping more than themselves. Also an interesting article in Vox about how things men could say that would be perceived by women as patronizing because of society teaching us all to perceive women as shrill, pushy, bitchy etc when the same behavior from men is accepted thus Hillary has to push back on certain phrases or actions.
    Probably everyone should chill.
    For decades now the Republicans have been demonizing Hillary and I know of people who actually agree with her who always think the worst of her and don’t even recognize how they have been trained to react. The surest sign is if they also deride her appearance as if it said anything about her positions.
    sanders is going to get caught by our conditioned responses to socialism too. I know it’s not the same. That will be harder to defend for me. I have less experience with the arguments.
    John…what exactly are you talking about?

  97. 97.

    Clem

    @Adam L Silverman: Any follow up on Oregon Bundy stand off? There is a We The People petition to arrest Bundy and there is a Your Voice Your Vote TV interview with Bundy, sheriff and judge. The judge claims a public meeting in the school was surrounded by armed militia that they intimidated the meeting. School refuses to host any more meetings due to firearms and a meeting scheduled with no guns allowed gets canceled due to tensions and safety concerns. Judge claims four armed groups. The fourth group is the local residents who have plenty of guns and ammo and God forbid some thing goes wrong and the bullets start flying.

  99. 99.

    Baud

    @Gvg:

    John…what exactly are you talking about?

    It was explained in the thread. Some random dude on Twitter is now the Clinton campaign.

  100. 100.

    Betty Cracker

    I thought Watson’s remark was stupid. But is he an official HRC operative? If campaigns are to held accountable for any random asshole supporter who comments on Twitter, there will be plenty of disgust to go around.

    I do disagree that an HRC win wouldn’t be as exciting as PBO’s election. It will be a BFD for women and girls.

  101. 101.

    Elizabelle

    I have that Yosemite Sarah Palin cartoon in my head, as a rotating ear wig.

    “Right wingin’, bitter clingin’, pow pow pow.”

    It was a thing of genius. Unlike its subject.

  102. 102.

    kdaug

    Roasted kimchee on fries with Korean BBQ ribeye.
    And some kind of crazy sour/hot sauce, and cilantro on top.

    Lunch twice in a row. Tomorrow’s gonna make three.

    Sorry. Y’all were saying something? Snow?

  103. 103.

    David Koch

    Iowa Poll — Fox — Jan 18-21

    Trump……………………34%
    ?Rafael Cruz?……23%
    Rubio…………………….12%
    Carson…………………….7%
    ¿Jeb?……………………….4%◄

  105. 105.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Betty Cracker: I reckon Cole has a spot of cabin fever and the echoes of his twitter feed are ringing in his head like great clanging gongs. Or Sarah Palin at peak volume and peak rhyme.

  107. 107.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Clem: I’ll probably do one tomorrow or Tuesday. I’ve followed the reporting from the OregonianLive and OPD sites, as well as JJ McNabb’s twitter feed, but I needed to take a couple of days and not really write anything. Regardless of the topic.

  108. 108.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Gvg:

    sanders is going to get caught by our conditioned responses to socialism too.

    That and they’ll say he’ll raise everybody’s tax rate to 90% and make you go to the DMV for health care.

  111. 111.

    Kropadope

    @Gvg:

    For decades now the Republicans have been demonizing Hillary and I know of people who

    Let me finish that…

    People who will excuse anything she does because they can’t distinguish legitimate criticism from partisan sniping?

  113. 113.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Adam L Silverman: Really? In the previous 2 attempts, VoteRiders isn’t colored as a link for me, it shows up as black underlined when I move the mouse over it, but there’s no URL with it. (I see the same thing in IE without TOC’s CSS enhancements, so I think it’s something with FYWP.)

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  114. 114.

    lamh36

    Ugh…I turn to my tv expecting to get knee deep in a whole new XFiles with Mulder and Scully back in action…and freakin’ football is still on!

    Blah

  115. 115.

    JCJ

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
    I agree,although I agree also with the comment about marketing. Hillary Clinton had the slogan “Ready for Hillary” and her campaign logo uses the “H” with the arrow. Bernie Sanders bumper stickers and signs I have seen frequently simply have “Bernie.” This is not just seen with female politicians. I have read about the same thing with African American pro athletes vs white.

  118. 118.

    catclub

    @GregB: That one was Less than 20 miles from me.
    OTOH The Slate map of how far and how recent murders are shows I am relatively safe.

  119. 119.

    GregB

    @BruceFromOhio:

    No where in my post did I imply it was a good thing. It is one of countless idiotic tragedies that occur in the US because almost two generations have been convinced that guns are magical tools and problem solvers and the wielders are great patriots by dint of possessing such a magic tool It is sickening.

  121. 121.

    Adam L Silverman

    @lamh36: They should never have debuted it this week. I set my DVR for an extra hour of recording time on the back end because I knew there was no way the game would be done in time.

  122. 122.

    Corner Stone

    @Elizabelle:

    I have that Yosemite Sarah Palin cartoon in my head, as a rotating ear wig.

    My ex had heard of SP’s endorsement speech but was not aware of the Yosemite Sam piece. She larfed for a good six or seven minutes watching that. I still love it, so much.

  123. 123.

    DCF

    Let’s, for a moment, set aside the reality television Twilight Zone slow-motion-train-wreck that is the 21st century Republican Party, led by a snake oil selling, carnival barking charlatan and a Talibangelical, McCartheyesque opportunist….

    ‘Flame wars’ between the Clinton and Sanders camps are pointless – here and elsewhere.

    As a Vermonter, I’ve been ‘up close and personal’ with Bernie Sanders for thirty-five years – returning home to Burlington in 1980 after a ten-year educational separation out-of-state. Ironically, I completed my undergraduate Sociology degree (B.A./AKD) at the University of Vermont in 1984.

    Campaign funding/finance (i.e., Citizens United) is central to the ongoing drift toward a plutocratic/oligarchic state. Sanders has eschewed corporate/PAC funding; HRC accepts a plethora of such support. IMO, one cannot accept subsidies from corporate source(s) (read: Wall Street) and concurrently bring significant change(s) to our socio-economic/political system.

    Yes, Sanders is ‘pure’ in that regard – and bless the FSM for that state of affairs. He is, at the same time, a highly-experienced political animal (Mayor/Congressman /Senator) whose judgement and experience combine to form a formidable CV…

    And did I say that Sanders leads potential Republican candidates by significantly larger margins than HRC?

    I will vote for HRC, should she become the Democatic presidential nominee – but I will do so without the passion and conviction that a Sanders vote would engender….

    Speaking of passion…here’s a link:

    President Kennedy 1961 Inaugural Address

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLmiOEk59n8

  126. 126.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Adam L Silverman: Weird. I’m using Chrome here.

    Just to be clear, there were 2 links in each of my 2 “broken” attempts.

    http://www.voteriders.org

    http://lwv.org

    The VoteRiders linkies were broken. (I checked with Safari on Winders too, and those 2 attempts are broken there, also too.)

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who isn’t getting kickbacks to mention those fine groups. Maybe I should. ;-)

  127. 127.

    Schlemazel

    I have no time for that horror show that was Ronald Reagan but he did have one thing that the Dems sure could take to heart. The 11th commandment. I have to believe that 2 Dems could have a good argument about their positions and proposals without falling into the mud. But at this point that belief is based more on faith than evidence. We need to keep the real goal in mind, either of these two would be light years better than any of the GOP contenders.

  129. 129.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Baud: @Corner Stone: Baud’s take is probably correct. But for people that don’t watch football, who either want to watch it live or were setting a DVR, the delay will likely screw them up. They just announced we’re two minutes away from the premier. I stopped what I was watching (the Lucha Underground Season 1 marathon on El Rey Network) to see how far from on time they were going to be so I’ll know how much I have to fast forward through when I finally watch the X-Files premier.

  131. 131.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @DCF: but I will do so without the passion and conviction that a Sanders vote would engender….

    good lord

  132. 132.

    Kay

    @Clem:

    School refuses to host any more meetings due to firearms and a meeting scheduled with no guns allowed gets canceled due to tensions and safety concerns.

    Great! So the rabid defenders of the Constitution out there at the “compound” are intimidating people so they can’t assemble and chilling political speech. I can’t wait to see how they run the Citizen Grand Jury. Will there be show trials, or is it straight to hanging people they disagree with?

  133. 133.

    Glidwrith

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks!

    So, shoveling horse manure as usual, however, I do read that legislation as a set up to keep investment funds from divesting themselves from said gun manufacturers. Here in California, I believe Calpers has done so. That is a a bloody huge fund and I think others have followed suit. This would be a means to punish people that don’t want to business with them.

    Call it Enforced Capitalism – rather like the tobacco companies getting a preferred spot in our trade treaties, then when the country in question tries to educate or restrict their populace from smoking, the tobacco companies sue the bejeebers out of them for treaty violation.

  135. 135.

    EconWatcher

    If you don’t like ginned up claims of sexism, why do you have Anne Laurie as a frontpager?

  136. 136.

    Kay

    @Schlemazel:

    The 11th commandment.

    They break this all the time, though. Kasich is running an ad that shows a man in a suit (Jeb?) covered in mud and staggering around. It’s about not attacking fellow Republicans, I guess. They break the “commandment” while supposedly enforcing the commandment.

  137. 137.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @DCF:What a precious and noble little flower you are. I weep that you won’t be able to feel special come election day.

  138. 138.

    Corner Stone

    @Kay:

    I can’t wait to see how they run the Citizen Grand Jury. Will there be show trials, or is it straight to hanging people they disagree with?

    I can’t wait to see what they try, either. How they haven’t been flash banged and tear gassed into submission by this point…
    However, the local sheriff is getting what he has begotten. Who does he think is going to have his back when these kooks “convict” him?

  139. 139.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: The latest reporting I saw indicated that their list of people to be presented as potential law breakers before the citizen’s grand jury was growing and included those in the local community that simply did not believe the same things that the occupiers and their supporters do. This seems to be the way with these efforts I’ve read about in other places. They quickly metastasize into attempts at score settling. Eventually someone within the movement will fail the No True Scotsman test and his or her name will be put before the citizen’s grand jury. Once that happens, then you’ll see a split and competing citizen’s grand juries.

    The other issue they’re starting to happen is that as the numbers of supporters either show up to the refuge or just to Burns, you increase the numbers from the different extreme right sub-cultures involved. And they don’t all get along or overlap. The Bundy’s are partially motivated by extreme and non-normative Mormon theology and dogma – some of it influenced by Skousen’s writings, some by others. There’s at least one Messianic Jewish (Jews for Jesus) evangelical there, which is why you’ve got battle shofars (not even real Jews, even the fans of Boromir of Gondor or Helm Hammerhand, have battle shofars…). You’ve got some skinheads, based on some of the photos and reporting. This is not surprising as Portland is the skinhead capital of the world. You’ve also got a whole bunch of sovereign citizens and my guess is there’s some Christian Identity folks there too. While there’s a lot of overlap in the grievances among these different groups, there isn’t necessarily overlap in how to behave day to day, let alone respond to those grievances. The longer they have to interact with each other the more likely they’ll begin to fight among themselves.

  141. 141.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Glidwrith: It could be. My guess is the law, if challenged wouldn’t hold up. Gun dealers would have to demonstrate a pattern and history of discrimination to be recognized as a protected class.

  143. 143.

    Schlemazel

    @Kay:
    Now they do but for 30 years they stuck pretty close to it. Back in 94 when Patty was making a run the powers that be go together and torpedoed him but they did it through the mighty Wurlitzer and not by the candidate.

  145. 145.

    DCF

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I think your words reveal all that needs to be known of your ‘perspective’…when you decide to behave like one who truly listens and responds – without deprecation or dismissiveness – I am open to any/all discussion/debate….

  146. 146.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Corner Stone: Well there’s at least one full family there; Mom, Dad, two daughters. And they’re not coming and going, they’re staying. Authorities have indicated they know who they are but they aren’t releasing names to protect the minor’s identities.

  149. 149.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I read Under The Banner of Heaven and the religious fundamentalists destroying printing presses stuck with me. That seemed to be a turning point for the vast majority who didn’t share their particular faith. That was when they went too far and Illinois finally said “no more- this ain’t gonna happen here”.

  152. 152.

    Keith G

    FYWP seems to be eating my comments. Either it is totally setting them on fire and scattering ashes or it is saving them for later. If it is saving them, at some point there’s going to be a duplicate or triplicate post authored by me. I apologize if those pop up.

  153. 153.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: At some point I’m going to be able to put up the People’s Front of Judaea vs the Judaean’s People’s Front clip from Life of Brian.

  154. 154.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Keith G: The hamsters seem to be revolting tonight. Lots of us are having troubles (see the last couple of threads).

    Maybe Alain is doing something or other…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  155. 155.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Keith G: I’m not seeing anything in the dashboard as one of your comments saved. And they’re definitely not in moderation.

  156. 156.

    Roger Moore

    @Kay:

    I can’t wait to see how they run the Citizen Grand Jury. Will there be show trials, or is it straight to hanging people they disagree with?

    They can’t hold proper show trials, which require a level of control and media complicity that they just aren’t going to get. I’m sure they’ll have sham trials in which the victim will neither be present nor have all of the constitutional protections these assholes are supposed to be defending, but that’s really a different thing.

  157. 157.

    Corner Stone

    @Adam L Silverman: That’s fine. I feel for the minors and do not wish for any loss of life. But if I lived in that area and these guys even looked at me funny. I’d be super pissed local LEO wasn’t working it to protect me and mine.

  158. 158.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Roger Moore: My understanding is that everything in the citizen’s grand juries are done in secret. And there’s no follow on trial. If the grand jury finds that you’ve violated the law, you are guilty. And there is only one sentence: death by hanging.

  159. 159.

    Ruckus

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Live in the 21st century? What are you, some kind of hippy, dippy, fascist, socialist, communist? We have to permanently live in the 17th century where men were white and everyone else got sloppy thirds if anything at all and the wealthy could do and say anything they wanted or have anyone shot on command. This idea of equality, that’s just blasphemy!

  161. 161.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Corner Stone: What I’m amazed about is someone hasn’t gotten violent yet. Oregon is not a Stand Your Ground state, but at the same time one has no duty to retreat if confronted. Not quite sure how those things actually work in the same state, but eventually someone is going to feel really threatened and confront someone else. And then things will get interesting. From what I’ve seen of Sepulveida’s and McNabb’s twitter reporting, the core group at the refuge were the most violent, most extreme, and least willing to backdown or negotiate at the Bundy Ranch standoff. They were the ones that placed the snipers and did everything they could to passively-aggressively instigate an armed response to justify their killing Federal, state, and local law enforcement, other officials, and just every day citizens they believed were their enemies or traitors to their understanding of the US. I think that the FBI knows exactly who is involved here, they know they are just itching, no matter how soft-spoken and easy going some like the Bundy’s may seem, for an armed confrontation. Especially one they can spin as being Waco II. How the FBI is actually using that information I have no idea. Nor do I know how it fits into their strategy.

  163. 163.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    Dunno if this has been discussed yet. OregonLive:

    BURNS – Leaders of the armed protesters holding the national bird sanctuary on Tuesday plan to push their anti-government agenda in Grant County, whose sheriff recommends the government give in to two of their key demands.

    Sheriff Glenn Palmer said in a statement to The Oregonian/OregonLive that “the government is going to have to concede something” to end the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

    He said freeing a father-son ranching team from prison “would be a start. Sending the FBI home would be a start.” He referred to the FBI’s lead role in ending the refuge occupation.

    “I just pray to God that cooler heads prevail and that no one gets killed,” Palmer said.

    The sheriff’s endorsement of the militants’ demands stunned law enforcement officials, most who would not publicly discuss the matter.

    […]

    Palmer is aligned with the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, a national nonprofit which interprets the constitution to severely limit federal government powers. Palmer was the association’s first “Constitutional Sheriff of the Year” in 2011 and now serves on its advisory board.

    He often speaks critically of the federal government, particularly the U.S. Forest Service, which is a major land owner in his county.

    “The only thing that is out of control is the federal government,” Palmer said in a 2011 speech in California to a group considering constitutional issues.

    “I am not a public employee. I am a public servant,” said Palmer.

    He warned the audience that federal authorities were eroding water, mining and other resource rights.

    “Don’t let them take them from you,” he said. “Stand up and defend for what you believe in.”

    Palmer ended a joint policing agreement with the Forest Service because it wouldn’t submit to his authority.

    “They have no constitutional authority” to perform police functions in Grant County, he said.

    It’s not surprising that he’s on their side, given his history.

    But how do local law enforcement officials get to so flagrantly advocate violating the well-known understanding of the local, state, and federal legal system? It’s like they’re trying to be a 5th Column or something.

    :-(

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  164. 164.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ruckus: Every year at Passover I always want to know why if this is the 21st Century we can’t have matzoh that tastes good. We must have some sort of space age polymer or something…

  168. 168.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I hope so. We have community meetings at the school, in the gym. I recognized the photograph I saw, where they’re all sitting on bleachers.

    But scholars say Bundy and his followers are misreading the Constitution.
    “You have to read the entire document and not just the clauses and provisions that you think support your case,” said Elizabeth Wydra, chief counsel of the nonprofit Constitutional Accountability Center, which monitors legal application of the Constitution.
    The provision cited by Bundy and others is “mostly about the District of Columbia and the idea that there would be the neutral place for the government to be located instead of in an area belonging to a particular state. It’s really hard for me to see how that relates to their claims.”
    The more important provision, Wydra and others said, is Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 – known as the “Property Clause”: “The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States.”

    I think it’s great scholars are weighing in to read them the document they supposedly revere, but I confess I still don’t understand why they don’t have to go to court with their constitutional claims like everyone else.

  173. 173.

    Starfish

    @GregB: I said the same thing, and someone gave me some convoluted response about “What if the proprietor shot first, and the dude was defending himself? Then who was aggressing first?” As if the person who pulls out the first weapon is the aggressor in any situation.

  174. 174.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Kay: I admit I’m rapidly losing patience with these ammosexual fools. I understand the hesitance of the feds to provoke a firefight and the very real danger of violence provoking more armed rebellion, but how much can heavily armed thugs get away with? It’s pissing me off.

    Adam, any new thoughts for a Bunker Standoff Update?

  176. 176.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Roger Moore: Well considering that the Constitution makes no provision for any group of citizens to just create their own courts and dispense their own understanding of justice, I’m not sure the 6th Amendment really has anything to do with it.

    These are, plain and simple, people that want to be able to either tyrannize their neighbors or take whatever they want or ignore any rules they don’t like. It doesn’t really matter what the Constitution really says, its just a prop to make their greed, selfishness, and intolerance sound patriotic.

  178. 178.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Adam L Silverman: Zooks! The OregonLive story is dated today. Very devious of them to use comments from weeks ago in their headline and as a hook for today’s “news”.

    Sorry. My dog Sophie ate my homework.

    And you folks talk too much.

    :-)

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  179. 179.

    Roger Moore

    @Kay:

    I confess I still don’t understand why they don’t have to go to court with their constitutional claims like everyone else.

    Well, they could go to court like anyone else, but they know they’d lose. Basically, they think the government as a whole no longer keeps to the Constitution, so they have to use extraconstitutional means to enforce it.

  180. 180.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: Are you in Burns?

    As for them having to go to court like everyone else? They don’t recognize the courts or the government or the laws that the rest of us do. And in this case, in Oregon, its not even the Federal Constitution that’s at issue. The Oregon state constitution specifically recognizes and acknowledges the Federal ownership and management of the public lands in the state not directly under state control. This was part of Oregon’s, and many other western state’s, requirements for entering the Union. I think Idaho and Montana and Wyoming and both Dakotas and Washington state and a couple of others all have similar provisions in their state constitutions.

  181. 181.

    Cacti

    @Kay:

    I read Under The Banner of Heaven and the religious fundamentalists destroying printing presses stuck with me. That seemed to be a turning point for the vast majority who didn’t share their particular faith. That was when they went too far and Illinois finally said “no more- this ain’t gonna happen here”.

    Destroying the printing presses alone was bad enough. But the reason for destroying them was that they were printing factual information about the secret polygamous marriages of church leaders.

  183. 183.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Adam L Silverman: Clearly I posted before reading down. ::blushes:: Why do Messianic Jews have battle shofars? I only know regular Jews, though I once got a very nice thank you note from a woman I prosecuted for trespassing at Planned Parenthood, who was a Messianic Jew. She thanked me for my patience and graciousness with pro se defendants. It was quite thoughtful.

  187. 187.

    Roger Moore

    @Starfish:

    As if the person who pulls out the first weapon is the aggressor in any situation.

    Not just who pulls out the first weapon, but who pulls the first trigger. BTW, could you please explain that aggression isn’t necessarily being the first to violence to George Lucas? Han shot first, but that didn’t make him the aggressor.

  188. 188.

    Adam L Silverman

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Palmer made the remarks about two weeks ago. It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s repeating them. If I’m recalling right, he’s part of retired sheriff John Mack’s Constitutional Sheriff’s and Peace Officer’s group. Of course the US Constitution doesn’t mention sheriffs or counties for that matter.

  191. 191.

    Adam L Silverman

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Here’s what they say in their own words:
    http://www.shofarcall.com/teaching—how—when–where.html

    I think the short story is that they are not just heavily evangelical, they are also dispensationalists. They assert that they’re actually Olive Tree theology adherents, but the only reason to blow the horn for battle is if one is expecting the final one. Honestly, trying to keep all of this stuff straight gives me headaches that it didn’t when I was 25.

  192. 192.

    Ruckus

    @Adam L Silverman:
    We do.
    In The Graduate, “There’s a great future in plastics,” was actually my career direction, 4 thousand yrs ago.
    It does cause gastric distress in people susceptible to gastric distress from eating plastic. Not sure it’s a deal breaker for you however considering what you are replacing.

  194. 194.

    Kay

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):

    I don’t accept this. Not any of it. I don’t even accept the FBI having some top secret plan, barring something like a hostage situation. I don’t think police agencies should treat one group differently than every other group, ever.

    I want them processed like everyone else or I want each and every lawbreaker given this elaborate mediation process. “Safe passage home” after two weeks of filming themselves breaking laws is new to me. Have you ever seen anyone else get that? I haven’t.

  196. 196.

    NotMax

    @Ada, L.Silverman

    to be able to either tyrannize their neighbors or take whatever they want or ignore any rules they don’t like

    Left out: make up new rules and corollaries which apply only to themselves on the fly.

  197. 197.

    Glidwrith

    @Adam L Silverman: I can see a screwball judge deciding discrimination, simply based on the fact of the divestments themselves. After all, all those florists and bakers were being discriminated against when they were forced to participate in gay weddings, amirite?

    Seriously, though, what would such discrimination look like? I can think of Planned Parenthood being denied purchase of a piece of property would qualify as an example of what if? I know that Blackwater set up a training facility under a different name and when folks found out they tried to shut them down. It didn’t work, but this was physical property. What would financial discrimination against arms dealers look like? Not buying a gun? Not lending to that sort of business?

    Hmmm…which sort of circles back to your FDIC argument. Well, I guess we shall see what we shall see.

    ‘Nite all.

  199. 199.

    MomSense

    Did something happen today that was significant?

    My kid has an invite to spend some time next summer in Japan. The catch is that it is pretty close to Fukushima. He wants to go but I’m nervous.

  201. 201.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Omnes Omnibus: Hiya Grace. ::waves:: I got the new name thing, but the battle shofars is beyond me.

    Like Adam, I kind of expect some internal strife – Cooper, Payne, and Ritzheimer all seem pretty tightly wound, but I’ve (obviously) got no real idea how it will play out, or when, But I’m beyond being sick of the domestic terrorism. If I just had a big gun and a driver to Oregon, I’d fix their wagon.

  210. 210.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: I know how you define big gun… I’ve spent a lot of time working with your type. In fact when I was TACON at III Corps my office was in Joint Fires.

  213. 213.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Omnes Omnibus: Of course, I had something a bit smaller and more easily transportable in mind. Truth be told, I’d probably get right up in their faces without a weapon anyway; I can be hotheaded like that.

  215. 215.

    Corner Stone

    @Adam L Silverman: Awful balls. I hope we have first responders ready for when Amir sees it.
    That was a bad, very poor, disjointed effort to open a reboot/rehash/renew. If they hadn’t already made 6 episodes in the can…

  217. 217.

    Cacti

    For any degenerate gamblers out there, the Panthers have opened as 5.5 point favorites in Super Bowl 50.

  219. 219.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Adam L Silverman: So I’d get there sometime next year about after spending $25K on gas. And that’s before I pay the crew. Or get snacks. I don’t have the kind of budget.

  223. 223.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Corner Stone: Okay, I’ll probably not get to it for several days, but I’ll let you know what I think when I do. I honestly didn’t watch the last season as I thought it had started to get meh. Same with the last bit of Millennium. It seems these shows always try to hold on too long.

  226. 226.

    MomSense

    @Adam L Silverman:

    We have a similar coalition here in Maine. I learned the hard way that the mere expression of one’s reasonable opinion may result in intimidation and worse.

    I’m scared for the people of Burns.

  228. 228.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    They don’t recognize the courts or the government or the laws that the rest of us do.

    Lots of people don’t “recognize” laws. That’s why they break them. They want what they want, just like these people. I don’t need them to “recognize” US law. I’m not negotiating a treaty with them.

    That whole “rest of us” going along with laws we don’t agree with is dependent on not treating them like they’re special. I know you’re trying to understand them but from my perspective “trying to understand them” on the part of law enforcement (not you) is something no one else gets in the criminal justice system. Everyone else gets a straight reading of the applicable statute and then it’s applied. There’s no nuance. It’s “was it a BREAKING? Yes? Was the use UNAUTHORIZED, yes or no?”

  229. 229.

    charon

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I have a relative who is both, but while all J4J are Messianic, I am not sure that works the other direction.

    Jews for Jesus is an organization created by the Southern Baptist Convention and controlled by it. Obviously, a Jew can convert to Christianity without belonging to such an organization.

  230. 230.

    rikyrah

    @Betty Cracker:
    It will not be a BFD for this woman, because I still believe that Hillary is the wrong woman, without the understanding of what it means to be “the First” , and the responsibility that goes along with it.

  231. 231.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MomSense: To be honest this stuff is always somewhere between terroristic threats (as defined in most state codes) vigilantism to gang activity to outright domestic terrorism. The problem is neither our political system nor our criminal justice system is really designed to deal with this type of behavior when its done by white Christians. When it happens it basically gets everyone running around in circles with their mouths open going “whah?” Technically it shouldn’t be hard to deal with – apply the laws neutrally to everyone. But in reality it just causes everything to cease up like an engine without lubrication.

  232. 232.

    MomSense

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    Thanks for the links. It would be such a great experience for him. Of late I’ve been feeling a lot of sympathy for what I put my mom through traveling all around the world by myself. I really hate the nukes, though.

  235. 235.

    Adam L Silverman

    @charon: What used to be broadly called Jews for Jesus has been called Messianic Judaism since, at least, the early 90s. They were originally considered and treated like a cult. The name change was part of an attempt to rehabilitate the group. It was originally created to entice Jews who were not particularly devout and not particularly knowledgable about Judaism into evangelical Christianity. To be blunt: it is impossible to be a devout Jew of any type and to believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

  236. 236.

    MomSense

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I find that when you mention it to people, including LEO, you hear a lot of dismissive language. Culturally, people seem very familiar with these groups and consequently look for reasons to excuse unacceptable behavior.

  237. 237.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @rikyrah: I can see deciding that she isn’t the right person, but how do you come to this: without the understanding of what it means to be “the First” , and the responsibility that goes along with it?

  238. 238.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MomSense: Every LEO I know doesn’t want to deal with them. They always make a bad day for law enforcement. They don’t want to deal with anyone but the sheriff. Then if they can’t get what they want from the sheriff, they don’t want to deal with him or her and the deputies. Dealing with these folks is a rabbit hole to nowhere. Part of it is, I think, intentional. They just keep adjusting their goal posts as necessary and on a dime to try to manipulate things. I also think part of it is they’re smoking their own stash – they actually start to believe their own BS.

  245. 245.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MomSense: That’s definitely true, but that’s more towards their overall treatment of women. Like I said, every LEO I know – either former students of mine or friends – really don’t want to have to deal with them as it just sucks all the good out of the day.

  246. 246.

    Adam L Silverman

    @rikyrah: You mean the same private email server setup that Secretary of State Condeleeza Rice and Secretary of State Colin Powell also had? Because it was legal and standard operating procedure for Secretaries of State until the rules were changed after Secretary Clinton stepped down from her cabinet position? That email server issue?

  248. 248.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think the other three had them, I just don’t think they used them. Everything was set to go through the private servers. I really don’t care who supports whom (who?) for President. But this email server brouhaha is just silly.

  252. 252.

    Ruckus

    @rikyrah:
    First, I agree with Adam on the server issue.
    Second, I don’t doubt that there might be a better female candidate than Clinton out there some where. But I don’t see any other women with their hat in the ring. She’s the one this time. No one else is going to come sliding in to home plate to be the first. Either she’s first or she’s not but those are your two choices. I’m going with first. Mainly because she’s qualified, and in my mind more so than any other candidate. If enough people disagree with me, I’ll be happy to vote for Sanders. Just like the last time she ran I would have been happy to vote for her if my other choice hadn’t been nominated.

  253. 253.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ruckus: In 2008, I went back and forth but finally voted for Obama in the Ohio primary. I would have happily voted for Clinton in the general had she won. This time around I thing that Clinton the best candidate (I am open to persuasion if new facts come to light), but if Sanders gets the nom., I am all in for him.

    I do not, however, understand rikyrah’s insinuation that Clinton is without an understanding of what it would mean to be the first female president. Especially as the email server issue is her evidence of it.

  256. 256.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Omnes Omnibus: When Joe of the Morning starts on the email crap, I reach for the remote(actually I close the TV window). This hasn’t been much of a problem since the painters fucked up my satellite.

  259. 259.

    charon

    @rikyrah:
    The blah blah blah for months now has been about classified material in her emails. It is non sequitor to associate that with her private server, because a state department server would have been insecure also, and the same issues could be raised – private v. state department makes no difference, classified stuff is supposed to be on a different communication channel.

    Just a pretext for her enemies to yak yak yak..

  262. 262.

    rikyrah

    @Adam L Silverman:
    They both knew that they would not be going further in public office. The President had set what he wanted, but her arrogance went against the President. You get that practice in, defending a Clinton unforced error. It will not be the last time. Like I wrote before, she does not understand what it means to be “the First.” Her belief of what that means is to get this country into war- you can bet on that.

  263. 263.

    Ruckus

    @charon:
    Besides that the classified material wasn’t even classified until later.
    Everything given here tonight is why all the committee’s investigations have gone nowhere. The only people trying to make something of this are the conservatives, and not even all of them. It truly is a nothingburger. It if was a problem at least the two SoS before her would also have the same problem.
    It doesn’t even fall under shoulda, woulda, couda. It was protocol at the time.

  264. 264.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @rikyrah:

    Like I wrote before, she does not understand what it means to be “the First.”

    Evidence? And no, given that it is meaningless, the email server issue doesn’t count.

    Her belief of what that means is to get this country into war- you can bet on that.

    With whom?

    Are you supporting Sanders – whose plans are fixed around the idea that solving economic inequality will solve everything? Who wants to blow up the ACA? Who has invested nothing in down ticket races? Okay. I predict that it would result in Obama being remembered as the first Black president and one who accomplished a lot only to see it unwound over the next few years.

  265. 265.

    Goblue72

    @Omnes Omnibus: if you don’t think economic inequality is the single biggest problem this country faces, then your head is in the sand.

    Milquetoast liberal squishes and corporatist mods – your modern Democratic Party at work.

  266. 266.

    Goblue72

    @Adam L Silverman: That those dumbnuts aren’t dead on a slab at this point while Tamir Rice is a corpse is all you need to know about why this country is fucked.

    The rest is all just bullshit apologia spewing out of your mouth. Take a fucking stand.

  268. 268.

    Southern Beale

    By the same token, the daily roundup of BS from Bernie supporters is equally bad. Today I see that Hillary doesn’t really support women because when Bill Clinton was in the White House, female staffers were paid less than male staffers. And Hillary is really going to be a huge suckup to Wall Street and Hillary is really a dirty polluter because she didn’t come out forcefully against the Keystone XL pipeline etc. etc. etc.

    Yes the primary season is annoying but it’s not just Hillary supporters who are annoying. Bernie supporters are pretty fucking awful, too.

  270. 270.

    Tom W.

    @Betty Cracker:

    Betty – that’s a bit harsh.

    Your last line was why I reacted to Bernie’s smug dismissal as sexism. I think it was, mild as it may be. The left has always dismissed this barrier as minor, and explicitly NOT a BFD. Look at all the calls for “the right woman” in this very thread.

  271. 271.

    DCF

    @Omnes Omnibus: I am, having read this blog (and comments) for years…on the whole, BJ ‘Comments’ are entertaining and informative…just don’t ask me to welcome puerile, adolescent responses from ‘select’ participants here….

  273. 273.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @DCF: just don’t ask me to welcome puerile, adolescent responses

    Welcome them or not, if you’re going to spew turgid, onanistic crap (“Bernie has mastered the Byzantine arts of Vermont politics! He’s the Talleyrand of Burlington! He is unstoppable!”) about how the election should be about how your vote makes you feel (“I want to sparkle in the voting booth!”), expect to be mocked, Precious. This is election is too important to be sacrificed to self-indulgent, self-congratulatory fantasies.

  275. 275.

    Monala

    @Omnes Omnibus: if I’m understanding her, rikyrah is comparing Clinton as first woman Perez to so many African Americans who were first anything. In the latter case, there is a pressure to be the best possible example you can be for those who come after you. See Obama as an example: clean administration, exemplary family life.

    I think rikyrah doesn’t perceive Clinton, accurately or not, as having that “best example” mindset.

  276. 276.

    Brachiator

    @Monala:

    I think rikyrah doesn’t perceive Clinton, accurately or not, as having that “best example” mindset.

    Which is probably a good thing.

    Trying to set an example is a no-win situation. As we have seen with Obama, hard core racists will interpret whatever he does in negative terms.

Comments are closed.