Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

Infrastructure week. at last.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

You cannot shame the shameless.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

This really is a full service blog.

Being the leader of the world means to be the leader of peace.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

After roe, women are no longer free.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

A Senator Walker would also be an insult to reason, rationality, and decency.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

You are here: Home / Politics / Activist Judges! / Balloon Juice Bunker Standoff Update Day 24: The Gray Zone Pushes Back and Other Tales of the Pacific Northwest

Balloon Juice Bunker Standoff Update Day 24: The Gray Zone Pushes Back and Other Tales of the Pacific Northwest

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——–UPDATE——–

Les Zaitz is reporting on his twitter feed that the US Attorney for Oregon, the Supervisory Special Agent in Charge (SSAC) for the FBI (most likely the Portland Field Office), and the Sheriff (most likely Harney County Sheriff Ward) will hold a press conference tomorrow at 10:30 AM PST.

——————————

JJ McNabb at her twitter feed has indicated/reported at 7:43 PM (unclear if this is Pacific Time) that Blaine Cooper is “preparing for a hard stand” at the refuge.

—————————–

It has now been confirmed that Arizona rancher, foster parent, and self made Constitutional expert LaVoy Finicum was the person who was killed in the firefight between Ammon Bundy and those accompanying him and the FBI and Oregon State Police.

And Ritzheimer surrendered in Arizona.

—————————–

The new question will be how do the FBI, State, and local law enforcement wind down and round up the remaining occupiers at the Malheur Federal Wildlife Refuge. And how do they deal with the various Oath Keepers, III%ers, and other militia and sovereign citizen folks in Harney and Grant Counties.

——————————

FBI Statement (h/t: Origuy):

CZser_yWcAIahg8

As BettyC intimated a few minutes ago, Ammon Bundy and 8 others have been taken into custody after exchanging gunfire with the FBI. It is unclear who began the firefight at the traffic stop. No reports yet on whether anyone was injured.

—————————-

We are now in Day 24 of the standoff at the Malheur Federal Wildlife Refuge. Ammon Bundy and his followers have now set their sights on taking over neighboring Grant County. There is a meeting there tonight and the Grant County Sheriff, Sheriff Palmer, is both a member of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association (CSPOA) and a fellow traveler of the Bundys. He’s made it clear he’s not going to back up Sheriff Ward in Harney County and the Oregon Sheriffs’ Association has called for him to get with the (law enforcement) program. The good news is that Grant County’s Gray Zone is pushing back on Sheriff Palmer. His former Undersheriff Tom McKinley, who is the current Director of the Corrections Facility, has filed to run against him to ensure that there is real, proper law enforcement in Grant County, Oregon.

Last night’s Harney County community meeting – as in a meeting of the actual community, not the bogus sovereign-citizen and Bundy aligned Harney County Committee of Public Safety, had to be cancelled. Judge Grasty, the senior county official in Harny County cancelled it because of the number of armed, non Harney County residents in Burns and the surrounding areas. Grasty was clear that he wasn’t happy about this and the ongoing intimidation, but that the safety of the community is the priority right now. He has also, now, formally called for the FBI to move against Bundy and his fellow occupiers. The local Paiute community has also called on the FBI to act, especially as the occupiers have bulldozed across several archeological sites.

The ongoing occupation is also negatively impacting Harney County schoolchildren. Specifically, and as I’m sure everyone can imagine, it is stressing them out. There are concerns about violence being expressed from students as young as 5. Speaking of children, there some strange things happening with children at the refuge. Florida Man (what else?), Tea Party activist, and self appointed soveriegn citizen judge Joaquin Mariano DeMoreta-Folch, traveled to Arizona with the wife of one of the Malheur Refuge occupiers. There he impersonated a law enforcement officer to coerce her relatives to turn her two daughters over to them. They then took the children to the refuge in Oregon, where local news has reported they are now staying with their parents. This is at least a Class 6 felony* in Arizona and the authorities there are investigating. Another interesting family event has also taken place among the occupiers. A Kansas mom brought 9 of her 10 kids – one was taken away from her by Kansas Child Protective Services – in order to perform patriotic and religious songs for Ammon Bundy and company. She also took the family on tour to the Bundy Ranch standoff in 2014.

Joaquin Mariano DeMoreta-Folch, when he’s not busy impersonating law enforcement officers, has come to Oregon to oversee the sovereign citizen’s court and dispense justice. He’s already begun threatening reporters and intimating that the local elected and appointed government officials of Harney County will be charged. DeMoreta-Folch traces his authority, and that of his court, back to the Magna Carta, which has not only never been the law of the land in the US, but was also an agreement between the English crown and the nobility and had nothing to do with actual citizens.**

Finally, we end with the strange and the bizarre. Joseph Stetson was intercepted and arrested by Oregon State Police. He was open carrying a pellet (BB) gun, was visibly intoxicated, and claimed he was going to join the occupation at the refuge to kill law enforcement officers. When he was taken into custody, the body cam recordings captured him exclaiming that he is a Green Beret colonel and that President Reagan, himself, had sealed his records. Since he’s 54 now, and there hasn’t been a 27 year old colonel in the US Army – Conventional or Special Forces – since the Great Rebellion, now doing business as the Civil War, we can reasonably surmise that he is neither a Green Beret nor a colonel. To top that bit of excitement, an Idaho based occupier*** named Kelly Gneitling has challenged Governor Christie of New Jersey to a 10 falls Sumo basho (match) to settle the occupation (warning: picture and video of Mr. Gneitling at the link in a mawashi – you’ve been warned!). If Governor Christie wins just one fall, the occupation will end.

* It depends on whether the impersonation was part of another felony. So if they find that he helped to kidnap the kids, then the level of offense would change.

** At the time there were no English or British citizens, just subjects.

*** I really don’t know what this means. Is he such a large Sumo tori that he can occupy the refuge in Oregon from his home in Idaho? Or does this mean he’s virtually participating in the occupation – either via facetime or skype or just in spiritual solidarity?

Reader Interactions

233Comments

  1. 1.

    Sad_Dem

    I’m hoping that fellow-traveler sheriff loses his job quickly. And that the Bundy clowns end up serving the sentences they have earned by breaking laws. Let it be a lesson to the rest of the white supremacist morons out there that their time has passed.

  10. 10.

    Anne Laurie

    Twitter links: Les Zaitz,” Senior investigative reporter, The Oregonian/OregonLive”.

    Via JJMacNab, “Fellow @ the George Washington Univ Center for Cyber & Homeland Security, Program on Extremism”.

  12. 12.

    Mary G

    I think the FBI played it very smart by not doing anything for three weeks, which lulled these morons into thinking that they could just come and go as they pleased. Once they knew that the meeting was scheduled in the next county, they shut down the highway and snatched them up. Bravo for patience and planning!

    I am sure that whoever was killed will a right-wing martyr, but oh well.

  13. 13.

    OGLiberal

    Dead traitor but if at the hands of the Feds – as it appears so – the crazies will be even more fired up than ever, regardless of who actually shot first.

    Lord, do I hate these effing people. Sad that somebody died but, for the love of Pete, if those were armed brown people occupying the park they’d have been dead, in the hospital, or in jail weeks ago. Fvck white privilege.

  14. 14.

    dc

    According to the FBI news release, one individual is deceased.

    “One individual who was a subject of a federal probable cause arrest is deceased.”

  17. 17.

    dr. bloor

    (warning: picture and video of Mr. Gneitling at the link in a mawashi – you’ve been warned!)

    Well, at least we know now where all those snacks went.

  25. 25.

    OGLiberal

    @dr. bloor: Is he the foster child slave laborer? If he’s the dead guy it sucks that he’s dead but, still, eff him.

    And just reading that the local sheriff was a sympathizer – eff him, too….should get thrown out on his arse. These folks are all just a bunch of “Wolverines!” d-bags. Enough, already…hope this is the end of these tolerated illegal BS.

  26. 26.

    ARoomWithAMoose

    This was only people taken into custody while traveling out of county (and I guess now incarcerated and eventually arraigned far away from this circus)? So there’s still a bunch more RWNJ’s with kids holed up at the wildlife refuge, not to mention the population of non-locals that have been doing their best to intimidate locals that didn’t want these carnies in town.

  27. 27.

    Origuy

    Some on Twitter reporting that Finicum is the stiff. Also that Santilli has been detained for questioning.

  31. 31.

    Mike in NC

    Tar and feather these domestic terrorists, then start making them pay the million dollars they owe for a decade of unpaid grazing fees. How fucking hard is this stuff?

  34. 34.

    Mike J

    @Adam L Silverman:

    If they did, they will never see the light of day again.

    They’ll do what they did to McVeigh and frame a guilty man,. There was no doubt he was guilty, but the way the feds handled the case was shameful. Feds should have gone to prison.

  36. 36.

    CaseyL

    HOORAY! Very good news. I’ve been checking around, and while one story said the occupation was now over, I haven’t seen confirmation of that.

    If any of those low-rent rebels are still in the refuge, they’re likely shit scared. Good!

  37. 37.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    Tina Fey*, America turns its lonely eyes to you for a Sarah Palin style ” feds goosestepping over freedom luvvers ” rap, stat.

    *And your writers too.

  38. 38.

    sigaba

    @Felonius Monk: he’s being held for questioning, I read.

    Oregonian says the wounded is Ryan Bundy. The absence of LaVoy Finicum’s name from the list of arrestees, either on the highway or at the community meeting, is remarkable.

  39. 39.

    Soylent Green

    They were stopped on the road north to John Day, Oregon, a hundred miles from the wildlife refuge. My best friend lives and works there, for the Malheur National Forest. Bundy was taking his traveling road show there, encouraged by Sheriff Palmer, to share his plans for returning the national forest to its rightful owners. Our people out there (Forest Service staff) are obviously fearful about the future — who knows what Bundy sympathizer might want a little revenge?

  42. 42.

    keith p

    @sigaba: Reports saying Finicum is dead. Militia says he had his hands up and shot 3 times, including while on the ground. We’ll see what the body cams say.

  43. 43.

    Felonius Monk

    The identity of the person killed in the shootout was not released by authorities, but the daughter of Robert “LaVoy” Finicum, 55, of Arizona, said her father was to be part of the entourage going to John Day.

    Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife Lisa Bundy from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.

    Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bunday family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times. She said that Ammon Bundy also said Finicum was on the ground when he was shot.

    (Source)

    Note the probable bullshit –– «on the ground when he was shot»

  48. 48.

    randy khan

    Bundy’s clan already is claiming that the shooting was unjustified and that Finicum either had his hands up or was shot while he was on the ground (or maybe both). I sure hope there’s video that disproves that.

    Quoth the Oregonian

  49. 49.

    jl

    @Chip Daniels: The Paiutes were graciously invited to pick up their trinkets in the refuge museum and then were supposed to go away and not come back.

    Paiutes said they would not participate in local meetings with the Bundy Gang.

    Read a news report that the Bundy Gang was bulldozing archeological sites.
    Also read that a few neighboring ranchers were mightily pissed about the Bundy Gang cutting their fences and creating access routes without permission.

    Things were getting out of hand in a number of ways.

  55. 55.

    keith p

    @sigaba: So has the “stop sending dildo’s, haters” guy. Now they just have to nab the “judge” and the sumo champ, and that should be that.

  57. 57.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    Several hours later, Jon Ritzheimer, 32, a key militant leader, surrendered to police on the conspiracy charge.

    Oregonian again.

    This is rather surprising to me in that it’s sensible, and I thought he was batshit enough to want to go down swinging.

    ETA: Late to the party, as usual. Though this time I’m blaming the head cold.

  58. 58.

    lgerard

    I am of the opinion that the Sumo guy should get a pass because that was some pretty awesome trolling of Christie

  60. 60.

    OGLiberal

    @Felonius Monk: I’m sure that’s complete BS but when there’s video evidence of cops doing that to an unarmed black guy, nobody ever gets indicted and many white folks say, “well, he should have just listened to the cops.”

    The Feds have been handling these lunatics with kid gloves. I hardly think they just started firing off rounds for no reason. Sorry, doesn’t pass the smell test. But 47 percent of voting Americans will believe this slave driving, government teet sucking “patriot” was murdered in cold blood by Obama’s jack booted thugs.

  64. 64.

    Feebog

    @randy khan:
    I would bet the entire arrest procedure was video taped, probably from several angles. I would also bet that one or more of these morons drew their weapons and started the bloodshed.

  66. 66.

    mclaren

    The new question will be how do the FBI, State, and local law enforcement wind down and round up the remaining occupiers at the Malheur Federal Wildlife Refuge.

    I’m tempted to suggest a lasso and a branding iron, but that would be churlish.

  68. 68.

    jl

    @jl: I guess the unsympathetic neighboring ranchers forfeited their right to the land, and their tenure was less equal than the Bundy Gang’s and their buddies? Anyway, I read a news report that some neighboring ranchers were complaining that the Bundy Gang was just going on their land and wrecking stuff.

  69. 69.

    Soylent Green

    The bad news is that they got the gunfight they wanted, and the wingnuts will go ballistic. Especially over Ammon’s bullshit story about how Finicum bought it. The stop was made by FBI agents, not Cleveland cops. I hope they have good video to document the truth.

  70. 70.

    NonyNony

    @OGLiberal: Of course it’s complete BS. Not just for the kid gloves reason you state – if the Feds were going to shoot one of them in cold blood why leave the rest alive?

    If the story isn’t outright bullshit from Fiore, then it’s more of Bundy’s persecution fantasies come to life telling us what he wishes the Feds had done to feed his martyr complex.

  71. 71.

    jl

    @Feebog: Finicum said in interviews he would not be taken alive, or he would shoot back, if the law came at him with guns drawn. Apparently he thought that was rude and disrespectful and violated his sovereign citizen rights So there is that.

    And he was the guy who lost his foster kids, or free labor, or both. Not sure what they meant to him. He admitted that the income from the foster kids were his livelihood.

    A sad case, and maybe desperate, with nothing to lose?

  73. 73.

    Felonius Monk

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Police also arrested Pete Santilli, an independent broadcaster known for his aggressive manner and live streaming refuge events. He also faces a conspiracy charge to impede federal officers.

    (Source)

  75. 75.

    Mnemosyne

    @keith p:

    Yes, it’s terrible when unarmed people are killed by police. I’d like to think that these guys will now have a lot more sympathy for the families of Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, etc etc etc, but I ain’t holding my breath.

  78. 78.

    Anne Laurie

    From Raw Story:

    LaVoy Finicum — the Oregon militant who gained fame for conducting a television interview from beneath a blue tarp — has reportedly been shot and killed by law enforcement officers.

    The Arizona rancher, who was caring for 11 foster children with his wife, vowed at the start of the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Preserve that he was willing to die for his interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

    “I have been raised in the country all my life,” Finicum said in a widely viewed television interview with a rifle on his lap. “I love dearly to feel the wind on my face. To see the sun rise, to see the moon. I have no intention of spending any of my days in a concrete box.”…

    So welfare rancher (of foster kids) may actually have gone down shootin’, unlike Brave Sir Mooslim-Bashin’ Tattoo Artiste:

  79. 79.

    Feudalism Now!

    Actually, this was close to a best outcome. Finicum taken alive would have been best, but arresting most of the leadership, away from the refuge, on the way to link up with a sympathetic sheriff, is good. Plus, a few surrendering after warrants were issued? Bonus.
    If the Feds were shooting terrorists, there would be a lot more body bags than one.

  82. 82.

    Punchy

    I can Peg this Bundy mess on the cracker terrorist mindset. America’s Al-Bundy group. I also bet these Bundy hypocrits were smoking Bud, as idiotic as they’ve been.

  83. 83.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @Soylent Green: Yeah, just hoping, that’s all. I am already on the record that this whole shindig would make a great Anna Pigeon novel. Barr really was a ranger and writes knowingly of many places I’d like to go.

  85. 85.

    jl

    @Punchy: The news reports said their vehicles were stopped ‘with cause’. The way things have been going, a little hard to figure what that means. Is driving while an armed insurrectionist probably cause for a stop? Those exact words in the Constitution, or not?

    Or, maybe they were speeding? Nothing in the Constitution about speed limits.

    I like the note at the end. “presumed innocent”. I can see how maybe they will be over charged. That is the only practical meaning I can see in that disclaimer.

  86. 86.

    burnspbesq

    My guess is that we will see a news conference in Portland bright and early tomorrow morning at which a shitload of indictments will be unsealed.

  87. 87.

    JudyinSD

    I find it hard to believe that once arrested and in the backseat of an officer’s car, Bundy would be given a phone and allowed to call his wife. Doesn’t even begin to pass the smell test, so I find any information which has that as a source to be highly problematic.

  89. 89.

    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)

    …since the Great Rebellion, now doing business as the Civil War…

    Thank you for this, Adam. Thank you very much.

  90. 90.

    dr. bloor

    Boy, good old constitutionalist Sheriff Palmer is really left holding his dick in public on this one. He may as well turn in his badge and seize a wildlife refuge of his own somewhere.

  92. 92.

    Librarian

    I’m going to have to disagree with you about Magna Carta. It certainly has been a great influence upon both English and American law and constitutions, especially article 39, which was a precursor of due process of law, and the entire document is regarded as the establishment of the concept that the power of rulers is limited by law. As for the social aspect, it indeed was an agreement between the king and the barons, but the concepts embodied in it came to apply to other social groups later.

  93. 93.

    Anne Laurie

    @amk: Well, of course he did; as Finicum’s child-ranching proves, all these guys are in it for the grift. Ritzheimer’s had a whole series of performance stunts since at least May of last year, every one festooned with a series of SEND MONEY NAOW!!! social-media.

  95. 95.

    burnspbesq

    One last gratuitous insult to these clowns would be to cast Michael B. Jordan and Daniel Dae Kim as the lead FBI agents when the movie gets made.

  100. 100.

    Adam L Silverman

    @amk: They won’t. After the Miami shootout the FBI and DOJ take a very dim view of anyone that shoots at them.

  103. 103.

    MobiusKlein

    @srv: Terrorist plot snuffed by FBI? I guess the Obama administration is more competent than you might think!

    eta: gadzooks, spelling

  104. 104.

    Prescott Cactus

    @lgerard:

    Also, surprised Jon Ritzheimer turned himself in

    @srv:

    What about Fluffy Unicorn? Where’s his trial date?

    I bet he was a Fed plant.

    1+1 = 2

  107. 107.

    OGLiberal

    @jl: Maybe forcibly and illegally occupying federal property with arms is “cause”? Bet if these were black dudes it would have been over – maybe in uglier fashion – soon after it started. I can understand being hesitant to storm the park a la Waco – wouldn’t have been ideal – but letting these guys comeand go as they pleased was ridiculous. They stopped them this time and dude pissed that his government-provided slave labor meal ticket was taken away and with, apparently, a death by Feds death wish, got killed when he did something not good with his weapon. (Is there any chance thus lunatic wasn’t packing 24/7) Hardly a shock.

  109. 109.

    Roger Moore

    @amk:

    I thought feds plan all along was to end it “peacefully” ?

    It takes two to tango. If the people there don’t want to end it peacefully, it’s very hard for the feds to manage it without completely capitulating.

  111. 111.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @amk: I are you suggesting that I did? Being against an armed assault and arguing for patience does not equal suggesting a peaceful ending. YMMV.

  112. 112.

    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)

    @lgerard:

    Fiore’s vanity softcore porn productions are reliable, though. Reliably awful, but, still…

  115. 115.

    ArchPundit

    While we might have wanted to see this done earlier, one of the reasonable criticisms in Waco was that ATF should have waited for Koresh to go into town to make his arrest and then raid the compound.

    Well, these numb nuts decided to occupy the site when it was convenient and the FBI did this well.

  116. 116.

    burnspbesq

    Oregonian is reporting that the shootout took place on 395 approx. 20 miles north of Burns. Been there. It’s really difficult to describe just how empty that country is.

  118. 118.

    Anne Laurie

    @amk: Very old Mad magazine quote (from their parody of Chuck Connors’ Rifleman): “Ain’t nothing so peaceful and quiet as a dead man, son.”

    Live by the cartoon stereotype, die by the cartoon stereotype…

  119. 119.

    lgerard

    I think the “cause” part is that they had arrest warrants for certain people, knew those people were in vehicle X, therefore had cause to stop vehicle X.

  120. 120.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jl: I’ll let Omnes weigh in as he’s the lawyer, but I think this means that once warrants were issued for their arrests for what they were doing at the refuge, they could be stopped and taken into custody whenever the FBI decided to do so.

  121. 121.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @burnspbesq: So they arrested the leadership of the group when they were isolated from their foot soldiers and far away from valuable federal property? Shocking.

  123. 123.

    amk

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You seemed fixated on armed response, which not many here were saying. There are other things that feds could have done to deescalate the situation like stopping these terrorists from waltzing in & out of the refuge, swelling the ranks, terrorizing the local populace etc. Now, you have got kids inside to worry about.

  124. 124.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman: That is more or less correct.

    But “way in?” You know you are in our sights for your spelling – even if we find your posts interesting and informative ( which I do, at least).

  127. 127.

    Adam L Silverman

    @lgerard: The woman who thinks that cancer can be flushed out of the body with a baking soda IV. I would be very surprised to find out that when Bundy was put in the back of the police cruiser or SUV his hands were not cuffed behind his back and he was allowed to make call on his own cell phone to anyone.

  128. 128.

    Felonius Monk

    @lgerard:

    Also, surprised Jon Ritzheimer turned himself in

    Not surprising. He’s an attention whore, probably felt left out unless he went to jail with the rest of the gang.

  132. 132.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: Its late and I’m tired. I almost racked out at 8 and didn’t even do the post.

    Also: lazd weak eye cuwdnt spil injoneer and now eye ar wun.

  133. 133.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @amk: And some people seemed fixated on “ending it now.” Ending it now effectively meant an assault of some kind. That’s how it done. Send the forces in, double tap anything that looks like a combatant on the first go through, turn back, do it again, and on third pass start asking who wants to surrender. Lots of people die that way.

    ETA: I don’t give a shit about 24 days, if something like this brings and end to it.

  136. 136.

    Adam L Silverman

    @srv: He was arrested at home back in Arizona on state charges, processed, made bail or bonded out or what have you, and then proceeded back to Oregon and the standoff.

  139. 139.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @Librarian: I would like to know if this lot in Oregon also saw fit to misapply the idea of “a man’s home (sic) is his castle” during the standoff.

  144. 144.

    amk

    @efgoldman:

    Of course, they are. That’s the whole point, isn’t it? Remember how daddy bundy bravely declared that he was gonna put women and children front and center?

  147. 147.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @amk: And I was responding to those who were. If this ends it, it is relatively peaceful. I am cool with it.

  150. 150.

    Anne Laurie

    @lgerard:

    So Ryan Bundy has a minor gunshot wound

    100 bucks says he shot himself

    Hopefully in his own… foot, while drawin’ his shootin’ arn!

  151. 151.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Gin & Tonic: As someone who had to spend several years studying linguistics: its transliterated, so there is no official/formal/correct English spelling.

  153. 153.

    Adam L Silverman

    @ThresherK (GPad): Oregon does not have a stand your ground law. They do have a no duty to retreat law. I’m not sure how you square those two, perhaps Omnes has some idea. That said, you normally cannot stand your ground or exercise no duty to retreat against law enforcement in the normal course of their duties. I know of only one case where someone shot a cop who was involved with executing a no knock warrant and wasn’t prosecuted or convicted. If I’m recalling correctly he was the sole law enforcement officer in the neighboring jurisdiction and some knucklehead had messed up the address on the warrant. When the cops burst in, he grabbed his duty weapon, and returned fire thinking it was an armed robbery on his house in the middle of the night.

  156. 156.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman:

    you normally cannot stand your ground or exercise no duty to retreat against law enforcement in the normal course of their duties.

    As long as they clearly identify themselves as LEOs at the beginning of the exchange.

  158. 158.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yes she is. She normally is blonde, I’m assuming that was a black wig. And while she’s not a petite woman, all of the photos of her, including the contemporary ones, make her look much better than she looked in that clip. She’s also bug fuck nuts!

  165. 165.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: I would think the barricade, Oregon State Police cruisers parked sideways with their lights flashing, the FBI SUVs parked sideways with their lights flashing, the Oregon State Police guys in their uniforms, and the FBI guys wearing bullet proof vests marked FBI would have been a give away, but you never know. Perhaps Bundy and crew can’t spell either.

  167. 167.

    Gian

    So if two robbers have a getaway driver and go to a store, pull a gun and the clerk shoots and kills one, the getaway driver can be on the hook for felony-murder, right?

    So Bundy ought to be on the hook for felony-murder, right?

  170. 170.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @Adam L Silverman: I can’t begin to square those two concepts.

    But one of these jamokes occupying the preserve’s buildings, then considering it “their castle”, I could see happening.

  173. 173.

    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I think the dark hair is hers, while her blonde hair comes from a bottle.

    I don’t find her attractive or unattractive, but only because I can’t get her horrible acting and singing out of my head (and that, yeah, she’s absolutely fucking crazy). That fist pumping while she’s singing? That’s what editors are for, Michelle- since you didn’t hire one, you look like a bad karaoke performer.

  175. 175.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Patton Oswald ‏@ pattonoswalt 12m12 minutes ago
    Ammon Bundy stares from the back of a police van. Will his cause be remembered? A heron glides through the moonlight, clutching a dildo.

  176. 176.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Anne Laurie: Technically it is, but only for a GLOCK and only if one shoots oneself in the leg while trying to unholster or reholster the weapon. GLOCKs only have a trigger safety as their manual/external safety. Unless it is depressed the trigger won’t travel and the sear and striker won’t engage to fire the weapon. GLOCKs do not have grip safeties, nor do they have thumb/manual safeties. They do have to the standard internal safeties to prevent discharging the weapon if it is dropped or bumped.

  177. 177.

    Adam L Silverman

    @ThresherK (GPad): Castle Doctrine is related, but different. Again, I’ll defer to Omnes, but I don’t see how these folks can claim that the Federal facility that they are illegally occupying is their domicile or place of business.

  178. 178.

    Adam L Silverman

    I just updated with this up top:
    Les Zaitz is reporting on his twitter feed that the US Attorney for Oregon, the Supervisory Special Agent in Charge (SSAC) for the FBI (most likely the Portland Field Office), and the Sheriff (most likely Harney County Sheriff Ward) will hold a press conference tomorrow at 10:30 AM PST.

    I’ll try to see if I can’t get a live feed put up for it tomorrow.

  179. 179.

    Aleta

    Excerpts from an interesting article (at least to me, since I get power from an electric coop with its own oddities):

    There are numerous voices asking why the power hasn’t been cut off at the Malheur Refuge…

    It isn’t the Federal Government keeping the lights on at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, it’s a small electric cooperative, which expects its customers to read their meters and pay promptly.

    Harney Electric Cooperative is the power transmission and distribution provider for approximately 20,000 square miles of southeastern Oregon and northern Nevada, and right in the midst of their service territory map is the Malheur Wildlife Refuge – currently occupied by more loons than pin tails, swans, and geese.

    The Co-op has about 4,000 power meters, 350 miles of transmission line, and more than 2,400 miles of distribution line across the six counties shown on the map.

    No one’s heard how the Bundy’s intend to pay for the power they’re using – any more than anyone’s figured out how they intend to pay for the $1 million in back grazing fees and penalties they already owe. However, this time the Bundy’s aren’t ripping off the federal government – they’re ripping off the customers of a small electric cooperative.

    Why can’t the co-op cut the power off well outside the range of the Loons? That assumes that the co-op has isolation capacity, and the equipment already installed to shut down portions of the distribution line. Since its founding in 1961, the co-op’s primary concern has been to get power toisolated areas, NOT how to shut off power to isolated portions of its service area. The co-op has shut off power to the Frenchglen, OR BLM fire station [OregonLive] as of January 7, 2016, another target of the Loons, but not occupied by them. The integrity of the BLM fire station at Frenchglen is an important component in the safety of Harney Electric Cooperative’s transmission and distribution lines in southeastern Oregon and northern Nevada.

  180. 180.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman: Yep, castle doctrine only applies to one’s home – and it still has many limitations. These guys illegally took over a federal facility, fucked with it, and threatened federal LEOs. They are screwed.

  183. 183.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: Agreed. And the way this wrapped up made a lot of sense. Had Bundy and the rest of the leadership not all traveled together or even stayed put and had the Grant County folks come to them, they’d have been safe for a few more days. By going all together and being well away from everyone else, they made it easy to take them all at once.

    The issue now will be what happens at the refuge. Apparently Gary Hunt, an associate of Ryan Payne, is on site and has put a call out to their “Operation Mutual Defense” for Oath Keepers, III%ers, and Pacific Patriot Network members to immediately go to the refuge and defend the occupiers.

  187. 187.

    lgerard

    @Aleta:

    That letter is too funny

    He only left out the part about collecting drought subsidies while at the same time insisting you can graze your cattle on drought restricted land because there is no drought.

  188. 188.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @amk: They took a bunch of leaders. How do you, as an expert, suggest that they take the next steps?

    Me? I think that grabbing the most committed people, which is what just happened, will make the surrender of the rest more likely. I may be wrong. It’s happened before.

  189. 189.

    amk

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You are the one high five-ing yourself about knowing all about feds tactics all along, you tell me.

    But common sense sez, arrest them as they arrive.

  192. 192.

    burnspbesq

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Narrows – Princeton Rd. is pretty much the only way for reinforcements to get in. Block both approaches on Oregon 205 and block the east end at Oregon 78, and the only way in is by water.

  193. 193.

    The Pale Scot

    @amk:

    There are other things that feds could have done to deescalate the situation like..

    Freezing their bank accounts and credit cards, and put a lien on their land.

    How these guys thought that they could run an agro-business outside of the financial system escapes me.

  194. 194.

    Aleta

    Feeling sad for the locals, cause I don’t think the takeover attempt will settle down even after this. With elections coming up for Sheriff Ward and Sheriff Palmer, the outsider influences will keep raging and funding (Kochs?) to try to put a “constitutional” sheriff in Harney County. I think in the beginning the Bundys thought they might be able to pressure Ward into “taking a stand” in their favor. He must have taken incredible amount of heat. Brave guy; veteran of Somalia and Afghanistan, and an Army medic.

  198. 198.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @amk: Have you been one of the people calling for action now? If so, what do you want? Me, i wanted patience and as peaceful as possible a resolution of this as possible. I am comfortable with what is happening. I didn’t claim to know what the Fed’s tactics would be. i just suggested that they might have something in mind.

    If you think I suggested otherwise, please link to my offending quotes.

  200. 200.

    amk

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I have already told what is the sensible thing to do. Next?

    As for the other thing, you should read your own posts here. Life is too short to humor you.

  201. 201.

    AxelFoley

    @Sad_Dem:

    I’m hoping that fellow-traveler sheriff loses his job quickly. And that the Bundy clowns end up serving the sentences they have earned by breaking laws. Let it be a lesson to the rest of the white supremacist morons out there that their time has passed.

    Yeah, I hope that sheriff finds himself in the unemployment line. And I’ll not shed a tear for them assholes. Hell, I wanted Feds to really fuck them up.

  202. 202.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @amk: Okay, if you think that I said that it will all end peacefully, you have your head up your ass. Read what I said. Or just fuck off. I called for patience. It seems to be working.

  203. 203.

    burnspbesq

    There is some serious stupid littering my Facebook feed tonight. Notable is some person called Bob Kincaid, who apparently not only knows what is in the indictments, but knows the charges are a manifestation of white privilege.

  204. 204.

    Davebo

    MSNBC and Reuters report they have set a perimeter around the refuge compound now.

    With any luck the remaining wack jobs will give up once they can no longer do dinner and a movie on the weekends.

  206. 206.

    Davebo

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Of course it also could have worked at one of several other “meetings” where the leadership road tripped into Burns.

    The feds blew it letting this stunt go on as long as they did.

  207. 207.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    He wanted movies and the wild west. Shootout at the OK Corral. With machine guns, possibly that long gun that you posted a picture of the other day. Anything as long as blood, guts and gore were abundant you’re good to go.
    A few others, like yourself, wanted the cops to be professional, not like the cowboys that jump out of their cars and immediately shoot 12 yr old black kids for the crime of being born black. That is a crime, isn’t it? It isn’t you say? Imagine that. Not a crime to be born or born black or whatever, who’d a thought.

  208. 208.

    seaboogie

    @Davebo:

    The feds blew it letting this stunt go on as long as they did.

    Does your particular expertise come from direct combat experience like Omnes and Adam, or are you one of the “chairborne” tactical experts?

  211. 211.

    Adam L Silverman

    @seaboogie: I was very fortunate. Other than some incoming fires at a Combat Outpost I was working off of for a bit, I never came under fire – directly or indirectly, during my deployment. Spent about 1/2 my deployment outside the wire engaging with the locals, but was just fortunate that when I was out and about things were calm and stable.

  212. 212.

    PurpleGirl

    @Aleta: Thank you for this information on the electric service. From what I know about electric transmission it is a complicated thing. They were working on keeping their power transmission reliable. It isn’t like turning a light switch on and off. (I once worked in the Public Utilities group of major law firm and worked primarily on electric issues.)

  213. 213.

    PhoenixRising

    @Adam L Silverman: I feel for the agent who had to make that dumbass die for his beliefs, but it should be some help with the paperwork that the victim of this particular LE shooting had bragged on video that he’d never be taken alive. This week.

    Won’t help with the conspiracy theories, but it’ll make their jobs easier to complete.

  214. 214.

    Adam L Silverman

    @PhoenixRising: My guess is there were plenty of dashcams and bodycams. They’d have been really stupid to set up a take down attempt like this without making sure they could get everything on video.

  217. 217.

    ruemara

    I feel zero, 0, sympathy for these assholes. Only for their children, as they are and were dangerous malcontents intent on overthrowing the government through violence and intimidation. I’m just glad that no one else was hurt but one rat bastard.

  218. 218.

    Wrb

    Sheet I just want the grazing leases. ess than 10% of free market rate, around two bucks for a calf and cow per month.
    Insane, but as as long as such insanity is available, I want some

  220. 220.

    lgerard

    evidently cheap grazing rights are not enough, some of these guys are determined to get to heaven and get their 72 cows

  221. 221.

    sigaba

    @Adam L Silverman: I wonder if Ammon and the crew will have video. If I were going to try some sort of armed standoff with the government, I’d have my M4 in one hand and my RED Scarlet in the other. The latter is going to be more useful in the long-term.

  222. 222.

    max

    @ThresherK (GPad): But one of these jamokes occupying the preserve’s buildings, then considering it “their castle”, I could see happening.

    Given the stuff they’re yelling right now, I’m wouldn’t be surprised to see them try to castle. Ahem. Also the gold fringe on the American flag indicates its a maritime court and they can’t enforce federal law! HAH!

    The inability of the coop network to cut power explains the continuing power at the refuge. I expect the very long distance shooting capabilities of the occupiers explains the unwillingness of the Feds to close up to the building, unless they were going to conduct an assault (which would have been a massacre as Omnes said and disproportionate of the offense). Wanting to roll the entire leadership in one go explains the delay in arresting occupiers leaving the refuge. So, OK. Makes sense now.

    The downside to these guys calling for reinforcements is that a bunch of them will now show up, continuing the escapades. The upside is – they’re all going to be gravitating like flies to flypaper, and the flypaper is out in the middle of nowhere. So I guess we’ll be reducing the number of the guys on the loose.

    max
    [‘Could be worse.’]

  224. 224.

    Bartolo Fink

    (Interrogation Room)

    FBI AGENT: Hello Mister Bundy. May I call you Ammon?
    BUNDY: (defiant mumble)
    FBI AGENT: I’d like you to meet a friend of mine, he’s going to join us during our chat. (Holds up hand). This is my friend right here. Do you want to know what I call him? THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT! (Begins slapping Bundy).

    (Later)
    SECOND FBI AGENT (Chief Wiggum voice): Where’s your constitution now, Flanders?

  228. 228.

    Anne Laurie

    @max: From the Oregonian article:

    … Ryan Bundy, 43, of Bunkerville, Nev., suffered a minor gunshot wound in the confrontation about 4:30 p.m. along U.S. 395. He was treated and released from a local hospital and was in FBI custody, authorities said.

    Also arrested during the stop were his brother, Ammon Bundy, 40, of Emmett, Idaho, Ryan W. Payne, 32, of Anaconda, Mont., Brian Cavalier, 44, of Bunkerville, Nevada, and Shawna J. Cox, 59, of Kanab, Utah. They were charged with conspiracy to impede federal officers, a felony…

    Did everything but tie a big ribbon with a gift tag TAKE US NOW on the aerial, didn’t they?

    Wild-arse middle-of-the-night guess: The Ammon brothers were getting funding from somewhere, and they’re not smart enough to have managed even this much on their own, so the Feds would like to know more about that. Finicum was a True Believer suffering from a midlife crisis (coming to the end of his career mooching off th’ gubmint) looking to die in a blaze of glory. Brian Cavalier, aka ‘Fuzzy Unicorn’, seems to be nucking futz. Ditto “Captain” O’Shaughnessy — but O’Shaugnessy at least had the smarts to be well out of the line of fire when the authorized armed guys showed up, as did common or garden grifters Jon Ritzheimer (who ran all the way back to Arizona, so’s he could make some more SEND MUNY pleas online before surrendering) and Pete Santilli. Looks like Shawna Cox was intended as a human shield (with or without her consent).

    Gonna be interesting, finding out which of the “militia” were informants — and for which agencies (and/or other “patriot movements”…

  232. 232.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Obama in Shades: I have no idea what he’s actually saying in this case. I’ve publicly acknowledged here in a summary bio attached to some of my first guest posts that I’ve worked for the Federal government either as a term limited mobilized civilian/civil servant or as a contractor. So if that’s what he’s suggesting, then guilty as charged.

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