Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I really should read my own blog.

Since we are repeating ourselves, let me just say fuck that.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

Fight them, without becoming them!

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

American History and Black History can not be separated.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

The real work of an opposition party is to hold the people in power accountable.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

One lie, alone, tears the fabric of reality.

Ron DeSantis, the grand wizard, oops, governor of FL.

White supremacy is terrorism.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

This fight is for everything.

It looks like winning debates is a black job!

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Wednesday Morning Open Thread: American Schizophrenia

Wednesday Morning Open Thread: American Schizophrenia

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But on the positive side, according to Buzzfeed, “Trump’s Effect On The Latino Vote Has Begun: More Hispanic U.S. Citizens Are Coming”:

Near the Las Vegas strip, five women who share a number of qualities sat down for an interview.

The women are all Latina. They’re foreign-born. They’re members of the 53,000-strong Culinary Workers Union Local 226. They work as housekeepers (four of them at Donald Trump’s Las Vegas hotel).

And they’re all in the process of becoming naturalized U.S. citizens.

These women are just five of what labor and immigration activists say are a few of the thousands of Latinos they hope to help naturalize, in pivotal swing states like Nevada, Florida, and Colorado. The reason, they say? Trump made them do it…

If Trump has tapped into disaffected voters this year with his immigration rhetoric, there is also an unintended consequence — a mix of naturalization efforts, voter registration efforts, and ultimately efforts to mobilize voters off Trump’s rhetoric.

In the last 14 years, the local Culinary Union’s umbrella union, Unite Here, has helped push for 15,000 naturalizations. This year, Unite Here wants to help 2,500 people naturalize by June 1, so they can become U.S. citizens before the election — in addition to registering 10,000 new voters…

***********
Concerning the other big overnight breaking news, here’s the latest from local news, the Oregonian:

BURNS – Law enforcement officers set up roadblocks Tuesday night around the headquarters of the occupied Malheur National Wildlife Refuge hours after one of the takeover’s top spokesmen was killed and other leaders were arrested on a highway out of town.

FBI officials told those still at the compound, about 30 miles southeast of Burns, that they were free to leave and should do so. By midnight, few people appeared to have taken up the offer and the lights were still on.

Authorities provided no information about the roadblocks, but have scheduled a news conference for 10:30 a.m. Wednesday in Burns.…

That would be 1:30pm EST. I’m sure other front-pagers will be updating as more news emerges.

I’ve been following Oregonian reporter Les Zaitz and JJMacNabb on Twitter (you don’t need an account to read people’s public twitter feeds).
***********
Apart from bad craziness, amusing and otherwise, what’s on the agenda for the day?

Reader Interactions

139Comments

  2. 2.

    OzarkHillbilly

    So Ethan Couch, he of ‘affluenza’ fame is returning to Texas. But here’s the part I don’t get:

    Couch and his mother, Tonya Couch, were detained in the resort of Puerto Vallarta in December. His mother was quickly sent back to the US. She was released after posting bail.

    Her arrest affidavit alleges that she and her 18-year-old son fled the state in December as Texas prosecutors investigated whether he had violated his probation in the case of a 2013 car wreck that killed four people.

    Where is the logic for allowing bail to a woman who is charged with aiding and abetting the unlawful flight of a convicted felon? Oh, wait a minute, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Silly me.

  3. 3.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud:From FOX News:

    We learned from a secret back channel that the Ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president — a nefarious source tells us that Trump has his own secret plan to replace the Cabinet with his Twitter followers to see if he should even go to those meetings.

  4. 4.

    Baud

    From Les’s twitter

    Bundy Ranch FB post: “It appears that America was fired upon by our government. One of liberty’s finest patriots is fallen”

    Speaking on behalf of America, I support the government.

  8. 8.

    JPL

    According to MacNab’s twitter feed, the remaining militia members have until 4 am to leave the refuge.

  9. 9.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    Joy Reid @JoyAnnReid

    Sanders surrogate Thom Hartmann’s case for Bernie: a highly unlikely Dem takeover of the House and “not much got done under Obama.” ??

    Retweets 111 Likes 91

    7:40 PM – 26 Jan 2016

    One of Sanders’s main surrogates is a Russia Today TV host named Thom Hartmann. So last night, on behalf of the Sanders campaign, he went on MSNBC and said,”not much got done under Obama.” Now we at BJ have debunked this loony meme numerous times. But even if you believe this nutty myth why would you say it and alienate Obama voters you need to win.

    Amateurs.

  14. 14.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    I’m thinking of going to where the filmed the opening credits of “The Andy Griffith Show”; ya know the ol’ fishin’ hole and take some pics. It’s about 10 miles away in the Hollywood Hills.

    ETA: I’ve reading about astrophotograph and they talk about stacking multiple exposures to get a really good pic of the stars, so I thought I needed to get an interval timer. Seems like there’s one built into my camera?.

  22. 22.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    Trump is refusing to take Roger Ailes’s phone calls. Ailes is panicking that his ratings will flop without the wig wearing clown.

    They sent Hannity to beg Trump to attend the debate, but he refused, saying he will only speak to Murdoch.

    Now Fox issued a statement saying Trump is using Brown-Shirt tactics against Fox:

    “In a call on Saturday with a Fox News executive, [Corey Lewandowski] stated that Megyn had a ‘rough couple of days after that last debate’ and he ‘would hate to have her go through that again,’ ” the Fox News statement said.

    “Lewandowski was warned not to level any more threats, but he continued to do so. We can’t give in to terrorizations toward any of our employees.”

    I have to laugh at Fox, the network responsible for murdering Dr. George Tiller, for objecting and whining about someone demonizing them.

  25. 25.

    Baud

    @Gimlet:

    I hope the movie is titled “The Dildo Insurrection.”

    I’ll be too busy Presidenting to play a role in the movie.

  27. 27.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @amk: I really don’t know much about him. But obviously and stupidly he’s unaware of the President’s 91% approval rating among Democrats.

    Pandering the 9% of Dems who hate the President is a looser’s proposition.

  34. 34.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    @Baud:

    One of liberty’s finest patriots is fallen

    Patriots fire offensive line coach Dave DeGuglielmo

    Not fair of Belichick to scapegoat one of the finest Patriots.

  37. 37.

    Felanius Kootea

    Ammon Bundy and others arrested, LaVoy Finicum (the Arizona rancher) dead and another wounded following shots fired during the road stop.

  39. 39.

    opiejeanne

    @Baud: LaVoy Finicum. Some of them are trying to sell us that the FBI murdered him in cold blood, but there are eye-witnesses on the Bundy side of things who say that he and Ammon resisted arrest.
    Only a handful seem to be left, if what I heard was correct, and the kids are gone. I hope they’re right. Two of them were at the gate negotiating with the FBI on a resolution a while ago, but a couple of them are saying stupid stuff about it being time to die. The one who seems to have lost it the worst is a 27yo named David Fry.
    JJMacNab has been my source on Twitter, and I think she has done pretty well. Twitter and other online sources have been more on top of things than any of the news stations.

  41. 41.

    a different chris

    Would anybody be surprised if it turns out tarp-guy’s fatal GSW was self-inflicted?

  44. 44.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    No coincidence the FBI arrest of Ammon Bundy occurs the same week “The X-Files” triumphantly returned to tee vee

    ‘The X-Files’ Return Nabs Blockbuster Ratings

    Fox’s revival of “The X-Files” has come crashing out of the gates with some big ratings. For its premiere Sunday night, it drew 16.2 million viewers.

  45. 45.

    MomSense

    So all the leaders of the “revolution” drove together to an announced meeting???

    Hahahahaha. You don’t have to be special ops to know that was a tactical blunder.

  46. 46.

    rumpole

    I gotta say–he is playing these mopes perfectly. Look at the schedule. The next R debate is on february 6th. He misses one. Who cares? There are several more. By creating this fight, he’s shown that no one pushes him around, and when those other mopes try to call him names, he can call them chickens–ts in New Hampshire. He’s the only one that’s really stood uo to the “mainstream” media. (As a bonus, he doesn’t have to go back in front of a pretty smart reporter who would justly be more than a little pissed off at him and looking to make shredded yam salad ).

    If the other candidates all bash him at the debate in absentia, he wins. He’s still dominated the debate, and they don’t get to talk about what they do. Moreover, if they do bash him, that only enables Cruz, who they all hate. (The Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee stumped for Trump). If Cruz wins iowa, Trump’s leverage goes up. If Trump wins Iowa, his leverage goes up. And he will have no shortage of air time to counter what people say as CNN will probably take his call.

  49. 49.

    bystander

    I’m shocked that any of these guys would risk not getting to vote for President Trump.

    As far as Trump cowering before the mighty sword that is Megyn Kelly’s tongue, it only serves to make the 3 Dems look more sane and more presidential.

  50. 50.

    debbie

    @Baud:

    I was listening to a report on NPR (yes, whatever) this morning where a reporter was touring the government land taken over by Cliven Bundy. They’ve found that Native American petroglyphs have been shot up and pioneer graves have been dug up and bones scattered.

    Desecrating sacred sites. How are these people not the white Christian version of ISIS?

  51. 51.

    MomSense

    @opiejeanne:

    We knew these guys had more guns than sense, but wowza that was dumb. Well in glad they are bringing an end to this spectacle. These militia guys know just enough to be dangerous.

  52. 52.

    Baud

    @rumpole: True. And with Trump not there, the people who are there will focus their attacks on Cruz, which will also help Trump.

    It’s good to be the demagogue.

  53. 53.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @rumpole: By creating this fight, he’s shown that Megyn Kelly scares the pants off him, and when those other mopes try to call him names, he can not call them chickens–ts in New Hampshire or anywhere else because he’s the one who ran away. He’s the only one who is such a pussy that he can’t even stand up to the RW Puffball Express that is FOX News. (As a bonus, every one can see what a Cowardly Lion he really is).

    FTFUs

  56. 56.

    JPL

    @opiejeanne: Those arrested will probably be out on bail by the end of the week. They will then be able to tell how one of their own, was murdered for defending the constitution.

  57. 57.

    Baud

    @JPL: As frustrating as the delay has been, the media coverage has shown to most Americans that these guys are buffoons. That will hopefully dilute any sympathy they might have otherwise received had the feds gone in guns blazing on Day 1.

  59. 59.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    That Donald sure can negotiate tough deals. I can’t wait to see how he deals with Putin

    He’ll just tell Vlad to “stop the bullshit,” because that worked so well for John McCain’s campaign

  60. 60.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @JPL:

    Those arrested will probably be out on bail by the end of the week.

    I’m not sure about that, the Feds can make a pretty good case that they’re flight risks.

  62. 62.

    opiejeanne

    @JPL: Ah, but one or two of their own are telling us that he was not murdered, that Finicum resisted arrest, and one account is that he charged at the Feds.
    They are not getting out on bail, is my bet. This bunch can all be charged as complicit in the death of Finicum, I think, but there are a slew of other charges they can throw at them and they can hold them on this charge until they get the rest of it in line, if need be.

  65. 65.

    Iowa Old Lady

    @raven: So in the Trump/Kelly/FOX dispute, Joe raves that Kelly had Michael Moore on, undoubtedly right before he takes Trump’s phone call? That’s his idea of “fair” reporting.

  67. 67.

    opiejeanne

    I think the cell phones are jammed somehow at the refuge now. Everything went dead at 4am, on the dot. No live camera feed, no Tweets or Facebook updates, nothing.

  68. 68.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    OT: I got one of the 3-in-1(fisheye, wide angle, and Macro) clip-on lens for cellphones, they work pretty well.

  69. 69.

    opiejeanne

    @Iowa Old Lady: I’m sure there are multiple cameras of that situation. Law enforcement would be crazy not to have as many as possible running.

    Of course, the loonies will claim the videos have been tampered with, or falsified.

  73. 73.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @opiejeanne: Don’t be too sure:

    Lee said that account came from McConnell, who was taken into custody, questioned and released — although his Jeep and firearms were seized as evidence but will be returned after they’re examined.

    I can see releasing some of them. I can not in any way shape or form see returning their firearms to any of them. But I know quite well it may happen. Way too early to take any news report as fact, but in time we’ll see.

  74. 74.

    David *Rafael* Koch

    Scarborough: We Are Seeing “Trump At His Very Best,” “Fox Made Him Look Like The Grown-Up”

    The bullshit is strong with this one.

  76. 76.

    NonyNony

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    that Finicum charged the Feds.

    Suicide by cop if true. He was one of the ones claiming that he was going to go down shooting, and clearly he meant it.

    I can’t imagine how much his ranch must have sucked out of him to make him desperate enough to live and die in his little Wolverines LARP instead of working his ranch.

  78. 78.

    opiejeanne

    @NonyNony: His dozen or so kids are grown up, and his 11 foster kids were removed from the place, so he no longer has free labor from them. The vast majority of his income, according to him, was the money he got for fostering kids.

  79. 79.

    Baud

    @NonyNony: Every racist in America will now cite this whenever a cop kills an unarmed black kid. Not that it will help with those who are fact-optional, but I hope there is crystal clear video of the shooting.

  80. 80.

    gene108

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    Watching CSPAN and their opening topic was the Trump/Kelly feud. Trump supporters are all in for The Donald and this just impresses them more.

    It is amazing how they are looking for a savior, who they can back unquestioningly.

  81. 81.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @opiejeanne: I was talking about the Malhuer refugees in general. They have all broken the law. I can see releasing some of them on bail/recognizance. I can not see allowing any of these malcontents/seditionaries continued possession of firearms. As to those involved in the specific incident, I have no opinion beyond the above until I have more information.

  82. 82.

    AxelFoley

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    One of Sanders’s main surrogates is a Russia Today TV host named Thom Hartmann. So last night, on behalf of the Sanders campaign, he went on MSNBC and said,”not much got done under Obama.” Now we at BJ have debunked this loony meme numerous times. But even if you believe this nutty myth why would you say it and alienate Obama voters you need to win.

    Amateurs.

    Sanders supporters really want us to vote for Hillary. I mean, they REALLY do.

  83. 83.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yup.

    Trump is a coward. He told us all that plain as day last July. But the rest of the candidates are afraid of him, which is even more pathetic.

    Trump not being there shows he is weak. Anyone running against him who has any sense (nobody on the GOP side, obviously) would hammer away at his cowardice and contrast it with his big talk. This is Cruz’s big opening, but I figure he’s too enamored with his own Gigantic GENIOUS to actually take advantage of it.

    Of course, Fox News and CNN and probably some others will be falling over themselves to try to get in on whatever counter-programming to the debate that Donnie comes up with. “Please Mr. Trump! Please take our free air time!!1 We’ll give you anything you want!!111”

    It really is so pathetic.

    I hope HRC’s gigantic operation is working on ways to take advantage of the stupidity on the other side to flip the Senate and substantially increase Nancy’s numbers in the House…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  89. 89.

    bemused

    @David *Rafael* Koch:

    I’m skeptical Hartmann actually said Obama didn’t get much done. I do watch his show and while he is a Sanders fan, I’ve heard him give credit to Obama. Sanders would call in to Hartmann’s show, Brunch with Bernie, almost every day until he began to campaign seriously. Hartmann also said he would vote for whoever is the Dem nominee. Hartmann and Stephanie Miller called into each other’s radio shows in the last week talking about callers who accuse them of being either Clinton or Sanders bashers. alternately in the same show.

  90. 90.

    hueyplong

    Let’s face it, the only thing messing with our Schadenfreude is fact that it’s been difficult to know exactly which guy we want to get the GOP nomination (surely no one on earth wants Fiorina to get it). It’s now clearer for me. I want Trump to triumph, and to do so in part by successfully engaging in a bunch of slap fights with Fox. That dispenses with the nightmare scenario of Ted Cruz and creates the maximum damage on the other side because it has the fact creation machine at loggerheads with the nominee. When they turn on a dime and support him against Hitlery, only the smallish core of shut-in Fox addicts won’t see what a sham the other side is.

    Almost best of all, it shows that a nominated Trump, like the Trump of today, is likely to do lots of crazy things during the general campaign that can be turned against him. Maybe all this fratricidal mayhem depresses GOP turnout and helps up and down the ticket in November.

    I want Trump to “win” this news cycle against Fox big time, and I don’t care how he does it.

  91. 91.

    msdc

    @David *Rafael* Koch: I cannot imagine how this shitshow of a campaign would handle a general election.

    Also, this:

    Pandering the 9% of Dems who hate the President is a loser’s proposition.

    Just ask current poll leader and presumptive Democratic nominee Brian Schweitzer, right?

  92. 92.

    MomSense

    @opiejeanne:

    It’s just so funny. WWIII could start and we would still make time to oooh and aaaah over kittehs and puppehs.

    Her cats aregorgeous. I’ll look for a picture of your chubby. You could always send some pics to AL so we can all delight in the feline wonderfulness.

  95. 95.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @opiejeanne: The guy Lee got the story from (McConnell) was in the car with Ammon Bundy. I can only guess that McConnell got the story from the others while they were being processed.

    I notice that he’s not among the mug shots that have been released.

  97. 97.

    Gimlet

    From the WP

    Cruz reckons that since Australia’s 1996 gun buyback program, “the rate of sexual assaults, the rate of rapes, went up significantly, because women were unable to defend themselves.”

    Analysis by the Washington Post shows while the rate of sexual assaults in Australia increased slightly between 1996 and 2014, “there was no significant spike or drop after the 1996 legislative changes or buyback program”.

    “The increase likely is affected by the increase in reporting, and there wasn’t prevalent use of handguns for self-defense before 1996, as Cruz suggests,” they wrote.

  98. 98.

    Kay

    @bemused:

    Clinton has a problem with younger voters. She can do one of things- ignore this and hope she makes it up with better numbers in 55+ or find some way to reach them. Older voters have much better turn out so she could make that calculation but she has a ton of resources and nothing but time so I don’t know why she would. She can do both.

    Those long lines we saw in swing counties in Ohio in ’08 and ’12 at college campuses are voters Democrats need. The Democrat has to pick up 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 in red or swing counties to blunt the impact of Republicans dominating in a lot of counties. It’s not that they’ll vote GOP. It’s that they won’t vote.

  100. 100.

    gvg

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I don’t think any of the GOP dare accuse Trump of media cowardance because they all have a history of depending on FOX and friendly reporters going back before this cycle. when Bush had his media areas was the chance missed to call them cowards. None of them could handle interviews with good reporters, so calling Trump out would just put each of them on the spot.

  102. 102.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I’m skeptical that it’s possible for Clinton to improve her standing with younger voters.

    I wasn’t happy with her response at the town hall. She read his mind. He said he didn’t trust her and she told him why he didn’t trust her. I don’t know why he doesn’t trust her and either does she.

    I get why she didn’t ask why he doesn’t trust her- you don’t ask a question you don’t know the answer to- and that’s fine for a primary but there has to be something better than “I read your mind and thereby know you’re misinformed”.

    I;m just having trouble adjusting to the fact that young people were crucial to the Democrats 8 and 4 years ago (because Democrats were losing older white voters) and now they’re dispensable. That is very cynical, and they will recognize it as cynical. The “Democrats seek young voters” goes back further than Obama. Kerry did elaborate (and mostly successful) outreach to young voters.

    Again, it’s not either/or. She’s probably going to be the nominee and she has a ton of money and a very little opposition on the D side. She can afford this.

  104. 104.

    Baud

    @Kay: Young voters aren’t dispensable. They just won’t vote for her in the numbers we need, and there is nothing she can do about it.

    Every group of voters is crucial to Democrats. If one of those groups thinks they want to sit out and wait for something better to come along, there is nothing we can do.

  105. 105.

    bemused

    @Kay:

    Is that what Joy Reid’s tweet was about? I want to see a clip of Hartmann saying this and in what context. Not much info from a tweet.

  106. 106.

    MomSense

    @Baud:

    Young voters aren’t dispensable. They just won’t vote for her in the numbers we need, and there is nothing she can do about it.

    I do think there are plenty of things she can do about it. It’s funny because my oldest is a young voter and he is really insulted by Sanders’ campaign. My middle son is undecided and likes Sanders but even he says that he knows Sanders is promising things he can’t deliver.

  107. 107.

    dogwood

    @Kay:
    What do you want her to say? Democrats are very foolish if they think the Sanders campaign isn’t at some level an anti-Obama campaign. I can’t imagine anything more mind-numbing than a general election where two non-Democratic candidates run against a sitting president. Why any Democrats are signing up for this nonsense is a mystery to me. While you were concerned about the young man at the townhall not getting a straight answer, I’m pretty sure that anyone who repeats right-wing hackery isn’t going to be convinced to change his mind.

  109. 109.

    FlipYrWhig

    @dogwood: It’s not just right-wing hackery, though. It’s also Anyone But Clinton left-wing hackery, which we get in these very threads regularly.

  110. 110.

    gene108

    @dogwood:

    Why any Democrats are signing up for this nonsense is a mystery to me.

    The Democrats are basically the party of the status quo. There motto is “vote for me. We won’t let Republicans screw things up further. We’ll keep things the way they are.”

    Some people feel like they are on the losing end of that bargain no matter what.

    But without Democratic super majorities in the Senate, control of the House, and more state legislatures there really is not more Democrats can realistically accomplish.

    So the question is should Democrats champion things that are doomed to fail in the short-run and may lead to ridicule or only trot out what is doable?

    It’s really the problem Democrats have had since Reagan: What exactly do they stand for?

    It is not clearly defined in the minds of voters.

    I think people feel Sanders at least stands for something, even if they are pipe dreams now.

  112. 112.

    ruemara

    @bemused: Having listened to Hartman since Air America, I can believe he said that. He’s one of the left pundits who make people on the left stupid and pander to egos by swaying he has the smartest audience in radio. He was the worst in claiming EOs should be used to push more progressive policy and Breakfast with Bernie was a worship session. I recall listens to both of them and wondering why a sitting senator wasn’t talking about gridlock-ever and urging people to vote at midterms. When Sanders finally got a question regarding his Gitmo vote sometime back in 2012 and both he and Hartmann whiffed on it, I said that’s it. Never wasted a minute on both again until I considered Sanders to be the best choice for 2016. Two progressive icons but completely unaware of their flaws.

  113. 113.

    dogwood

    @FlipYrWhig:
    Interestingly enough Bernie is meeting with President Obama today at the White House. Very magnanimous on the part of POTUS. I wonder if Bernie will have the guts to call the president “weak” to his face.

  114. 114.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    If one of those groups thinks they want to sit out and wait for something better to come along, there is nothing we can do.

    Well, okay, but if she’s polling better with older white voters than Obama was why aren’t they the flighty and unreliable Democrats? Are they back, now, that margin? Where did they go, and why?

    Its just odd to see a political Party that was celebrating young voter turnout as small-d democratic and inspiring from 2004 to 2012 write them off the moment they’re shopping around. As far as “Republican talking points” one of the most popular Republican talking points after Obama won young people was “they aren’t savvy and they’re ill-informed and shallow”.

  117. 117.

    Baud

    @Kay: No one is writing anyone off. Obama couldn’t get Appalachia or older voters. Clinton can’t improve her standing with those youths who have learned to hate her. Sanders would lose his share of Democratic voters too. It’s all a question of how the numbers line up in the end for a particular candidate and where it makes sense to dedicate resources to turn out the vote, depending on who the nominee is.

  118. 118.

    dogwood

    @Kay:
    I don’t think young voters are any more ill-informed or shallow than any other segment of the voting population. What they are is unreliable. They might have turned out enthusiastically for Obama in ’08 and ’12, but they are largely a no-show at mid-terms. It’s hard to build a lasting coalition around unreliable voters.

  119. 119.

    msdc

    @FlipYrWhig: Yeah, Clinton’s not writing off young voters, she’s just going after them with stupid pandering shit like this.

    Clinton clearly knows she’s not the choice of young voters–in the primary. She’ll also be a much easier sell in the general, where she can run on policy and not On Fleek.

  120. 120.

    dogwood

    @Kay:
    What is Bernie doing to motivate African-American voters? Latino voters? When you look at pictures of a Sanders rally it looks eerily similar to a Trump rally. I’m not even a Clintonista, and it seems pretty obvious to me that she is held to a higher standard than Bernie on every level.

  121. 121.

    dogwood

    If Bernie doesn’t win the nomination he has every opportunity to keep his voters engaged in the general. Since he has never campaigned for anyone other than himself, it remains to be seen if he will do that. However, I’d like to think he would, and am actually a bit optimistic that he might.

  122. 122.

    FlipYrWhig

    @dogwood: I kind of think that’s been his whole angle all along: to show the Democratic Party that there is untapped liberal passion. (I personally don’t think there’s that much of it, but I’d love to be wrong about that.) If he stopped barnstorming it would undermine his point. I’m hoping that Bernie and Obama will help give Hillary the juice she needs to get elected, even though my take on Hillary is that she’ll be pretty much the slightly dull, steady, wonkish Gore ’00-ish president we never got to have.

  123. 123.

    Sherparick

    Notice the role of unions in this process. The current Gilded Age court is about raising every barrier they can to collective worker action. The most important thing we can do, whether you are Clinton or a Sanders supporter, but particularly if you are a Sanders supporter is support unions and advocate for pro-union polices. If a professional or upper middle class like me, seek out organization like “Working America.”

  124. 124.

    Sherparick

    By the way, I intend to contact Working America and suggest that they advertise on liberal blogs like Balloon Juice, Driftglass, etc. And people have to vote, and not just in Presidential election years, but in every local election, while advertising for reforms. (In Virginia, for instance, we should lobby for changing our “odd” year election process and setting up all elections, from school board to President, in the the Presidential years, as well as internet voting registration and mail in voting). http://www.workingamerica.org/

  125. 125.

    J R in WV

    Regarding these “ranchers supporting “our” constitution” out in Oregon: They completely baffle me when they oppose the American Government. The government of America is US -We the People. These ranchers want something the rest of us don’t get, free land, free money, free businesses, and if the rest of us – AKA the government won’t give them free land and free money, they will fight us for their right to more free stuff.

    The fact that our government is made up at the base by us – we the people – is so blindingly obvious even in Jr High or Middle School, for these folks to claim they don’t share that understanding means they are really grifters and con men who intend to not understand it in order to take stuff, steal it from the rest of us.

    They really are con men and thieves, especially the leaders, who hoodwink weak minded people who have trouble making a good living, by telling them over and over the reason they aren’t rich is because the Government IS Stealing their birthright by owning all that free land. I bet if there is a really complete investigation, it will be discovered that some of those right wing billionaires are funding these movements to reject America by these self-proclaimed patriots who hate the America that the rest of us work hard at building.

    I mean, really, why did the Goverment take all that land from those Indians if it wasn’t for US? Right?
    /snark

  126. 126.

    Kay

    @dogwood:

    I’m not even a Clintonista, and it seems pretty obvious to me that she is held to a higher standard than Bernie on every level.

    She’s the probable, likely nominee. Bernie Sanders is not actually that much of a threat to Hillary Clinton. However, Hillary Clinton could end up being a threat to Hillary Clinton if she continues mind-reading instead of listening to people who are Democratic voters, by default, because they will not be GOP voters.

    I think she surrounds herself with people who are intensely loyal to her, which is great, I actually value loyalty, but she can’t be so defensive that she won’t even ask why they don’t trust her, or, hell, try to ascertain why they don’t trust her. They don’t “know” her, and it’s not their duty to review the whole Clinton history prior to asking a question.

  127. 127.

    sigaba

    @msdc: It’s pretty bad pandering. But I remember a day when I turned on the Teevee, and General Wesley Clark was reassuring his 20-something supporter that Big Boi and Andre 3000 were only doing separate solo albums, and that Outkast was not really breaking up. (My parents caucused for Clark, I don’t let them forget.)

  128. 128.

    Sherparick

    @gene108: First, don’t minimize what Obama accomplished. The Affordable Care Act is a rube goldberg plan that as side affect helps insurance companies and drug companies, but has radically reduced the uninsured and given millions of people access to medical care. Perhaps not universal or complete, but accomplished something progressives and liberals have wanted to enact since Teddy Roosevelt’s Bull Moose Party in 1912. Similarly on environment and global warming and sustaining steady growth and the 2d most private job creation after the Clinton boom despite Republican sabotage efforts over the last 8 years. Further, you are not going to get a Democratic congress until after the 2020 census and subsequent reapportionment and the best chance for a strong Democratic tide in 2020 is a Democratic incumbent running on a strong economy. (You may say that a Trump Presidency may tank the economy leading to Democratic landslides in 2018 and 2020, but given the the incentives Trump and the Republican will have to take the franchise away from as many minority voters as possible and the appointment of more Federalist Society Supreme Court Justices, this heightening the contradictions process may not work out as you wish).

  129. 129.

    Kay

    @dogwood:

    Younger people are unreliable voters election to election (they don’t turn out) but Democrats can’t rely on 10% of the squishy older Democrats either (they turn out, but they don’t vote for Democrats):

    As NBC News also pointed out, “Throughout the 1990s, the youngest and oldest voters tended to vote the same way. For example, in the 1994 election which resulted in a Republican takeover of the House of Representatives, 48% of voters under 30 voted for the Democratic candidate for Congress and an identical 48% of voter age 60 and older did the same.”
    But beginning in 2004, something strange happened. Older and younger voters began to take dramatically different political paths. By 2010, 55 percent of the under-30 voters cast ballots for Democrats, compared to only 41 percent of over-60 voters.
    This year, the gap closed somewhat, but remained massive, with 45 percent of older voters supporting Democrats, while the young Democratic base maintained its 55 percent level.

  130. 130.

    chopper

    @dogwood:

    Democrats are very foolish if they think the Sanders campaign isn’t at some level an anti-Obama campaign.

    exactly. sanders’ base is the 15% or so of liberals who are sick and tired of the democratic party and disapprove of, or at least are disappointed with, obama. these people in general want sanders to run against obama. it may seem like electoral poison, but that’s what his base wants.

    this is also why it is so infuriatingly difficult to get through their heads the idea that a vastly democratic congress is necessary to accomplish any of his policies; even if they understand this, they’re not interested in more democrats. and the idea of president trump or cruz warrants a shrug and a “then we’ll have a liberal landslide next time”. it’s all “nach hitler, uns” with them, like it was with so many nader voters.

  131. 131.

    WereBear

    @chopper: Bullshit. I’m not, nor have I ever been, a Nader voter. Nor am I anti-Obama, and Bernie (when you listen to what he actually says) is not, either.

    Obama aimed high. I don’t see any reason why voters should not, either.

  132. 132.

    FlipYrWhig

    @chopper:

    this is also why it is so infuriatingly difficult to get through their heads the idea that a vastly democratic congress is necessary to accomplish any of his policies

    That’s not exactly my experience — they know that a vastly Democratic Congress is necessary, they just think that Bernie can achieve one with coattails, specifically by having gotten so many disgruntled non-participating liberal-leaning people to vote instead of staying home that the Congress he deals with will be surging with liberal energy.

  133. 133.

    WereBear

    @FlipYrWhig: Bernie has spent most of his legislative career pushing things through opposition. He’s actually done things, you know; there’s a reason he is actually beloved in his neck of the woods.

  134. 134.

    Kay

    @chopper:

    these people in general want sanders to run against obama. it may seem like electoral poison, but that’s what his base wants.

    Well, then, why do Clinton supporters care? If it’s “electoral poison” then the (institutional) “Democratic Party” can safely ignore it and work on making Clinton a better candidate for the (persuadable) parts of the coalition where she’s weak.

    You probably remember this but the Obama Campaign had people called “validators”. Here, they were local Democrats- “Party people”- who backed Obama and “vouched” for him. That was a response (IMO) to the reality that certain Democrats were really wary of him, and some of the reasons they were wary of him were not the best reasons in the world, quite frankly. He still did it, because he (rightly) felt it was necessary.

  135. 135.

    chopper

    @WereBear:

    if you aren’t anti-obama then you aren’t one of the people of which i was speaking. i was specific that i wasn’t speaking of all bernie voters.

  136. 136.

    Kay

    @WereBear:

    Nor am I anti-Obama

    “Anti Obama” can change depending on how old the voter is. For my daughter who is a Bernie supporter (and voted for Obama and actually canvassed in ’12) Obama is the only US President she experienced.

    It’s only “anti-Obama” because she happens to be the age she is- he’s the one and only Prez she’s seen up close. I think she would describe it as “anti status quo”. I know she would.

  137. 137.

    chopper

    @WereBear:

    bernie has a history of pushing very small, incremental changes through in congress. through amendments, rather than full-on bills. because he knows better than anyone else that the big shit he wants to accomplish can’t be done with any congress we’ve had in my lifetime. so he pushes for small bits here and there.

    now he’s promising these big changes as president knowing full well the above. he won’t get single payer accomplished using senate amendments. nor free college tuition, nor anything else he’s promising. he needs LBJ-type democratic majorities and he needs them fast.

    he needs a single election sea change in congress that we haven’t really seen before.

  138. 138.

    chopper

    @Kay:

    Well, then, why do Clinton supporters care?

    because clinton, and the dem party in general, is running in large part on obama’s record. others deliberately trying to minimize (or worse) obama’s record makes it hard across the board to succeed here.

    If it’s “electoral poison” then the (institutional) “Democratic Party” can safely ignore it

    that’s a very bad idea.

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