Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

The willow is too close to the house.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

You can’t love your country only when you win.

I did not have telepathic declassification on my 2022 bingo card.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

In my day, never was longer.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

All your base are belong to Tunch.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

“But what about the lurkers?”

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

You are here: Home / Politics / Politicans / Bernie Sanders 2016 / MSNBC Democratic Presidential Debate Open Thread

MSNBC Democratic Presidential Debate Open Thread

by | 363 Comments

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From the MSNBC website:

The debate, set for the University of New Hampshire in Durham, begins at 9 p.m. ET. It will be moderated by NBC News’ Chuck Todd and MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow.

Here is what you need to know about how to watch and be a part of the experience:

The debate will air live on MSNBC, beginning at 9 p.m. ET

You can also watch the live stream of the debate online at NBCNews.com and MSNBC.com. And if looking for real-time reactions and analysis, you’ll find it at all decision2016.nbcnews.com.

The Guardian‘s invaluable liveblog is here.

***********
ETA: From the Guardian liveblog:

Richard Wolffe
Here’s the value of debate prep: Sanders delivered some well-worn lines attacking Wall Street and campaign contributions from the financial industry.

But Clinton landed this piece of opposition research: Sanders voted twice to deregulate derivatives, which had a far more direct impact on the financial collapse of 2008 than Glass-Steagall. Within seconds, Clinton’s press team had emailed the research to the press corps.
Strangely Sanders let the attack pass him by, and sadly the moderators jumped to a highly-paid commercial break – a wonderful demonstration of the democracy-corrupting effects of big corporation dollars.

The hope that they would return to this line of questioning after the ads was, unfortunately, dashed.

***********
C-Todd (of course) raised The Serious Question about Clinton’s emails. And she (IMO) hit it out of the park —

Hillary Clinton, asked if she’s confident that nothing will come of the security review of her use of private emails as secretary of state:

“I am one-hundred percent confidence. This is a security review that was requested, it is being carried it, it will be resolved.”

… aaand then she pivoted to the actual point: There’s a plethora of retroactive classification going on (she didn’t say ‘institutional CYA’ but that’s where my mind went), it’s a real problem, and it needs to be addressed in a serious way, not used as a cheap partisan talking point.

Wrap-up: Final question: If you agree on so much, would you choose your opponent to be your VP candidate?

Hillary says “Let’s not be presumptuous, get ahead of ourselves”, but Sanders “would be the first person she called”.

Sanders agrees with her, pivots to add “She’s a hundred times” more suited for the Oval Office than any one of the Republican candidates. Good for both of them!

Closing statements: Hillary says this should be “both a heart and a head” election; she understands how so many people can be frustrated with the current status, but she’s the one with the experience and the skills to get actual legislative changes. Sanders said that we need “real” change in Washington. Reams of applause for both…

Reader Interactions

363Comments

  2. 2.

    Adam L Silverman

    @indycat32: Comes with the D. Phil from Oxford. Not sure what Chuck Todd’s justification is as he’s only got a high school degree.

  5. 5.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    DALLAS – The ex-girlfriend of NFL quarterback Johnny Manziel told police that the Heisman Trophy winner told her “shut up or I’ll kill us both” after forcing her into a car, hitting her, and dragging her by the hair.
    ***

    He will not be charged.

    At least he should be flagged 15 yards for unnecessary roughness.

  6. 6.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Gonna place a late bet of fifty quatloos that Rachel is the first one to bring up foreign policy, and quickly

  7. 7.

    NotMax

    The giant screens with Sanders’ and Clinton’s faces are Big Brotheresque; from the audience and viewer perspective Bernie is on the left, Hillary on the right.

  10. 10.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Is Bernie confusing single payer and universal, or ignoring the difference for the sake of rhetoric

  13. 13.

    NotMax

    Bernie’s eyes focused on the audience, not on the camera.

    All the Goopers will go after Hillary for lack of lapel pin.

  15. 15.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    NBC/WSJ/Marist — New Hampshire — February 2-4

    Sanders………….58%
    Clinton……………38%

    This one is over.

    Now some might ask, how can Hillary only be at 38%. Well, in 2008 she only got 39%. 61% of the vote was for ABC (anybody but Clinton).

    There’s a strong ABC vote in NH. Plus Sanders is offering everyone Free Tacos if elected. Who doesn’t want unlimited Free Tacos?

  16. 16.

    MomSense

    Sanders helped write the ACA? He was on one of the four committees but he didn’t write it.

  25. 25.

    Bobby Thomson

    I don’t think the “no moderates in the progressive treehouse” argument is a good way of broadening his appeal beyond very liberal Democrats.

  28. 28.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Free Groceries!

    If elected I will nationalize supermarkets and give everyone Free Groceries – paid for by a small tax on the New York Yankees.

    Enough is enough, Steinbrenner – you can’t have it all!

  32. 32.

    Anne Laurie

    Excellent question from Maddow: How can Sanders lead the Democrats, when he’s only been a Democrat for a few weeks?

  33. 33.

    Princess

    Can you be a socialist and be progressive? And then there were the Progressive Conservatives in Canada. It’s all so confusing.

  34. 34.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman: Moderate Progresives can exist, but progressive moderates cannot? I am confused. But this is such an important issue, I need to get it straight.

    Now is Bernie a real Democrat question? I tuned in late. Any non BS questions yet?

  35. 35.

    magurakurin

    @Baud:

    Why can’t you be a moderate and progressive?

    Because he says so. It’s the Revolution’s way or the highway, bub.

  36. 36.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @magurakurin: He thinks Obama is doing a great job. So great he thought about a primary challenge four years ago, thought about doing it himself.

  41. 41.

    MazeDancer

    Rachel is a Goddess. But not tonight. Where are the questions on issues? This is tabloid time so far.

  42. 42.

    NotMax

    Hillary’s to-do list:

    1) Show up for debate
    2) Give strong, confident presentation
    3) Return Joan Crawford’s shoulder pads.

  43. 43.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jl: I think the argument is that moderate=centrist and centrists can’t be progressive because progressive is being used in place of liberal. I don’t get the memos on the code words, so I’m kind of reading tea leaves here.

  45. 45.

    Renie

    first debate i’ve watched usually read blogs but have they always gone after each other like this

  51. 51.

    jl

    @Adam L Silverman: The debate is BS so far, and right now I think HRC just made a BS ‘raise taxes’ point. I guess the Democrats have to have a hard knuckle political talking points debate, and this is it.

    Raven: yeah, I said BS again, come on over here and do something about it.

  53. 53.

    BlueDWarrior

    YOu know, some of this argument about who is a “progressive” or a “moderate” almost seems to boil down to temperment. Like people are annoyed that Clinton doesn’t seem to be making a big a fight rhetorically as she could over an issue as she could (aka like Bernie).

    Personally I have yet to be convinced that Clinton would actually do things to harm Democratic principles in terms of policy, but that she just wouldn’t go as far as the situation may warrant from reading it on the outside.

    Then again, does it really matter if you opening bid is seen as entirely unfeasible, like some of Bernie’s policy prescriptions. It’d be hard for a rookie draftee and his agent to walk into a GM’s office and say they deserve $50M/year, but are willing to be argued down.

    I mean they could but I dunno if they’d be able to start the negotiation from all the laughter from management…

  55. 55.

    jl

    @Bobby Thomson: I don’t like how either candidate is handling these issues right now. Need some Big Dawg or Obama touch right now, but neither has it.

    Edit: I’ll beat up on Sanders. I think the valid point here is that it is a corrupt financing system puts a finger on the scale of a person’s judgment. Sanders has explicitly made that point before and could make it now. But he is not politically quick enough on his feet to react. So he slugs it out on ground that gets unnecessarily ugly and divisive.

    I like how HRC is coming off better in general, though think the tired tax jab and ‘smear’ accusation were low blows.

  56. 56.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @NotMax: Maybe politically, but including “speaking fees” in his Wall St ad was a personal attack, and he sanctimoniously pretends he has never run a negative campaign. I’m guessing Tad Devine or someone like him talked Sanders into it, but he did it, and his denial was hypocritical.

  57. 57.

    goblue72

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I am all for free shit. I want the government to give out more free stuff.

    Sick and tired of squishes thinking they are being the “responsible” ones by poo-poohing wealth redistribution. The hippie punching never ends.

  59. 59.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jl: I stopped watching. I figured we were going to get pointless questions and similar answers to last night.

  60. 60.

    NotMax

    “and I’m certainly not saying you did it [voted that way] for any kind of financial advantage”

    Velvet stiletto.

  64. 64.

    goblue72

    @BlueDWarrior: You mean like eliminating the estate tax? Proposals to eliminate the Department of Education, the EPA and Dept of Energy? Proposals to bomb Iran?

  77. 77.

    Renie

    @Baud: good point, seemed nastier than prior ones; was hoping to hear more about differences in issues now that there is just the two of them

  79. 79.

    NotMax

    Geeze Louise, ask one question and have both of them answer it.

    Questions pointed to just one candidate isn’t a debate, it’s an interview.

  81. 81.

    MomSense

    Speaking fees. SPEAKING fees. Speaking FEES. SPEAKING FEES. Good thing we aren’t playing a speaking fees drinking game.

  82. 82.

    jl

    @raven: I do not believe golue and I agree enough on why this debate is mostly BS so far for anything interesting to happen.

  83. 83.

    Adam L Silverman

    @schrodinger’s cat: The four still there have now been indicted through a Federal grand jury. There is also a DOJ effort underway to tighten up the laws, or the way they’re applied, for domestic terrorism. The material support to terrorism laws were written with foreign terrorist organizations in mind, not domestic, making it harder to bring similar cases against folks like Bundy and company.

  87. 87.

    jl

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    ” Fucking troll. ”

    For the record. I don’t like Baud, or goblue, in that way.

    Edit: debate may be heading out of BS territory, IMHO, if that makes certain people happy.

  88. 88.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: I actually think Rachel was offering her a chance to walk back that answer from last night

    and I don’t pretend to be an expert in these complicated questions, but a lot of people argue that GS in tact would not have prevented the crash– Lehman Bros, Bear Sterns and AIG wouldn’t have been covered.

    @schrodinger’s cat: Have all the loons gone home?
    /Looks around/ seems like most of us are here.

  90. 90.

    Redshift

    @BillinGlendaleCA: I think the town hall last night was already scheduled, and then Bernie wanted one of the additional debates to be before NH, which doesn’t leave a lot of options, especially considering the criticism of the weekend time slots for previous debates.

  92. 92.

    PhoenixRising

    One option would be for her to respond to every question with, “Yes, and the difference between our plans is that mine could conceivably happen.”

  96. 96.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Chuck Todd gives the Republicans, the Village and the purity ponies a new shiny object: the transcripts of HRC’s speeches.

  97. 97.

    Sly

    This debate is a hot mess. I’ve officially entered into the “Wake me up in November so I can skip all this bullshit and vote for the Democrat” phase of the primaries.

  101. 101.

    NotMax

    Look at the goddamn camera, Sanders.

    Particularly when you preface a statement with “I just want to say to the American people.”

    Politician 101.

  102. 102.

    jl

    @Baud:

    ” And Chuck Todd brings them back into the muck. ”

    Agreed. Is there anyone simple enough to believe much other than boilerplate in her speeches? (OK, Todd, does, probably)

    HRC and, so far in his response, Sanders, trying to steer out of the muck.

  104. 104.

    Kropadope

    Hillary Clinton: Not only do I want to want to rein in Wall St., I want to rein in pharmaceutical companies. I will claim to have a broader view and hope that the rubes forget Bernie was talking about the excesses of the pharmaceutical companies about ten minutes ago and also X number of years ago.

  106. 106.

    PhoenixRising

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Releasing the transcripts is actually not a terrible idea. I’d like to know what she said in those speeches. And I suspect that, like the emails, what’s in there reflects well on her.

  110. 110.

    mike in dc

    @Bobby Thomson:
    Realistically, not much of an obstacle to getting them released. Probably not much more than boilerplate in them, although it is also probable there’s some embarrassing suck-upery in the Goldman transcripts.

  111. 111.

    Sly

    When will Hillary Clinton reveal the contents of her grocery list? Does she buy organic? The American people deserve to know.

  113. 113.

    Princess

    Interesting that Bernie voted twice to deregulate derivatives before the crash. I guess he doesn’t want to restrain Wall St all the time.

  114. 114.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @beltane: By candidate Baud, you mean our Baud? He’d just spend the time telling fart jokes. Or farting, if he had Bernie’s free tacos.

  115. 115.

    jl

    @beltane: The silent stupor of Baud! 2016! will be welcome if this debate doesn’t get better. I used to say ‘silent strength’, but the gloves are off, now.

    @BillinGlendaleCA: fart pranks. Baud is a dynamic leader who takes action.

  118. 118.

    magurakurin

    Sanders’ argument basically breaks down to the rich are evil rat bastards…and she’s in their pocket. He doesn’t say it in so many words, but with very clever innuendo. And in that sense, the guy is good. He’s a passive-aggressive black belt master.

  119. 119.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @PhoenixRising: yeah, as others have said, probably boilerplate, maybe she can’t release others, I’d lay odds those speeches were adapted pages from her published books. But a lot of people, including Fox News, Tad Devine and the cast of Morning Joe , will now pretend to believe that’s where she laid out her evil plan to betray everyone in the world in the most fiendish ways possible.

  125. 125.

    Elie

    @magurakurin:

    But he has to do two things: condemn her passive aggressively, without 2) dissing her supporters who he needs. Every time he disses her without putting some space between her and what he thinks of them, he just ends up losing more people who are currently her supporters. Its a pretty difficult needle to thread. So far he has no done this successfully.

  127. 127.

    magurakurin

    @Elie:

    So far he has no done this successfully.

    He certainly hasn’t done so with me. Still not feelin’ the Bern.

  128. 128.

    Germy

    The Star of Super Bowl I Has No Memory of His History-Making Play
    http://www.esquire.com/sports/news/a41817/willie-wood-super-bowl-1/

    Hall of Famer Willie Wood has no recollection of making one of most famous plays in Super Bowl history. Although his interception of Len Dawson in Super Bowl I has become part of NFL lore, Wood doesn’t remember participating in the game.

    Wood, 79, suffers from dementia and spends his days in a wheelchair at an assisted living center after having underwent, “debilitating neck, hip and knee operations,” according to The New York Times.

  129. 129.

    magurakurin

    Wouldn’t the answer to the question “how long will those troops be there under President Sanders” be some sort of time frame?

  130. 130.

    oldgold

    She seems to be held to standards no one else is. Is anyone asking for transcripts of Sander’s or Cruz’s speeches? Clinton has been in the middle of the political arena for 25 years. She is not a stealth candidate. This is damn silliness and worse.

  135. 135.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Germy:today’s NYT says Ken Stabler died with CTE. Even though a Quarterbacks doesn’t suffer repeated head trauma like other positions; which proves no position is safe.,

  141. 141.

    Elie

    Bernie speaks of his speeches as “policy”. A speech is not detailed policy. He knows that. She has him in the crosshairs and of course, knows ALL the details. Great pivot to NH voters and what the future President will need to know and part of the “job interview” for President. He tries to go after her judgment now how many years on her vote on Iraq? Really.

    Her come back on her judgment is priceless —

  143. 143.

    magurakurin

    Clinton: voted for Iraq= disqualified
    Kerry: voted for Iraq = doing a good job today.

    whatever.

  144. 144.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Sanders voted twice to deregulate derivatives

    WTF?

    It galling how self righteous, sanctimonious and judgmental he is when he has dirty hands.

  145. 145.

    Elie

    Don’t agree with her that Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terrorism in ME. WTF!!!??? How about — ya know — Saudi Arabia and its ongoing support for ISIS?

  149. 149.

    magurakurin

    @Elie: I guess it comes to down to what each country does publicly. The Saudis do it under the table…like the Turks. But yeah, I agree, the Sunnis are way scarier than the Shia in terms of extremist groups.

  152. 152.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Elie: “State” sponsor, so we can all pretend the King and his cousins the ministers have no idea what their brothers and cousins are doing. At least that’s how I’ve always taken it. Even the dimmest third string FoxNews weekender and crackpot from the King-Hartzler-Goehmert caucus always remembers to say “state sponsor”

  153. 153.

    Cacti

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:

    WTF?

    It galling how self righteous and judgmental he is when he has dirty hands.

    Seems like The Bern’s pope of the church of left wing purity routine is starting to wear thin with others too.

    @BarbaraBoxer
    Hillary is a progressive EVERY day. Bernie is a Democrat “some days.”

  154. 154.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    Sounds like Sen Sanders would need to appoint Sec. Clinton to the State Dpt again to have a foreign policy plan. #DemDebate

    17 retweets 31 likes

  156. 156.

    Elie

    @magurakurin:

    Yeah, I know she is giving the “standard”response…. but I am very aggressively anti Sauid and think the Shia (who of course must be watched) are less a threat. Of course we have to satisfy the Israelis for reasons I cannot understand, seem to feel that Iran is more of a threat than the Saudis/Isis.

  157. 157.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Cacti:

    Seems like The Bern’s pope of the church of left wing purity routine is starting to wear thin with others too.

    @BarbaraBoxer
    Hillary is a progressive EVERY day. Bernie is a Democrat “some days.”

    Ouch!

  159. 159.

    Kyle

    It’s a good, spirited debate, but you’d never know that the other party has anyone running for president, let alone a bunch of idiots. Isn’t that a missed opportunity?

  161. 161.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Elie:

    Of course we have to satisfy the Israelis for reasons I cannot understand

    Why do you hate our 51st state?

  164. 164.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @NotMax:

    Everyone leaves out Kuwait, banking central for Daesh.

    “You forgot Poland”

    [/Flashback to a previous debate].

  165. 165.

    Elie

    @Kyle:

    Uh — Yes.

    Problem is, who IS the most “important” Republican candidate? Trump is dying and Cruz and Rubio are not stepping into that gap yet. The Republicans are an empty chair….

  168. 168.

    Sly

    The one take-away from the 2016 election will doubtless be “Huh. Maybe Skynet had a point after all.”

  170. 170.

    Elie

    @Joel:

    When did Hamas and Hezbollah bomb Paris and the US? Did I miss that? When did they start grooming their terrorists to work here? Yeah, they eff with Israel… maybe that is why?

  173. 173.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    #DemDebate So Bernie if you couldn’t even get VA Health passed how do you think you’d get single payer through? See, connect those dots.

  174. 174.

    Woodrow/asim

    @Baud: What’s funny is the thing that finally put me, in 2007, on Team Obama was his article for Foreign Policy mag on his vision for, well, Foreign Policy.

    You could see he had clearly thought on what the threats AND opportunities for America were, and how to engage them. He had answers for much of the situations, plus a vision that went past that. In short, it was clear Obama came ready to play all the positions, not just the ones he liked.

    Sanders isn’t there. And it’s late in the game to get there. We cannot have a President that’s 90% awesome on Domestic policy and 10% on Foreign policy — not these days. This is one of the key things that keeps me off the Sanders train.

  176. 176.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Sly: at first I read that as Skynyrd, and I thought, I’m as free as a bird, Tuesday’s gone? Be a simple kind of man?

    Jesus, Chuck, back to Iowa?

  177. 177.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    Apparently @Msnbc @abcnews @CBSNews don’t care about nearly 40 million projected voters of color in ’16 #DemDebate

    Jose Antonio Vargas @joseiswriting
    #BlackLivesMatter, #immigration, #education, #FlintWaterCrisis, #incarceration, #detention. What’s up @MSNBC? #DemDebate

    23 retweets 33 likes

  179. 179.

    dmsilev

    Attention Democratic Candidates: The first of you to walk over to Chuck Todd and give him a wedgie will win my vote.

  181. 181.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Woodrow/asim: In short, it was clear Obama came ready to play all the positions, not just the ones he liked.
    Sanders isn’t there. And it’s late in the game to get there

    The hedgehog will not become the fox.

    ETA; Now Sanders is reading his polls

  192. 192.

    Elie

    What she said: “I can add to the winning coalition”

    No matter how you slice it, Bernie not only does not do that, but doesn’t seem to want to do that. Case closed

  194. 194.

    beltane

    OT, but tomorrow’s CBS This Morning will feature an interview with Jeb! and his mother. The video clip I saw makes it look like Jeb is in big trouble in school and they had to call mom into the principal’s office.

  199. 199.

    jl

    @Baud: Won’t stop Todd, tough. That’s how he earns the big bucks.

    In keeping with Conster comment above, it’s really too bad that there are not any issues other than horse race politics that deserve a question. No climate problems, no police policy issues, racial justice issues, environmental issues, nothing else really interesting to talk about.

    Baud: see, Todd comes back with an email yawner. HRC good so far on it. She dropped the Powell/Condy email bomb. Has Todd’s head exploded yet? And Todd takes one to the chin and comes back with a jab! Todd punches away. What a palooka, what a slugger! Todd goes to Sanders and misquotes him.

    Todd is earning his money tonight.

  201. 201.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    oh my god, the fucking data breach and some campaign hijinks? Really Rachel? And I don’t like Sanders

    ETA: HRC coud (have) hit a home run if she had used that time to ask for a question on one of the issues we’re citing as missing

    but her “no” was pretty good

  206. 206.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    daveweigel ‏@daveweigel 3m3 minutes ago

    Watching the debate from a Manchester bar where some bros keep telling a table of Hillary fans that they’re “Bernie or bust.”

  213. 213.

    Misterpuff

    Oops wrong thread.

    Rachel please shiv Chuck Todd -Villager and crypto-GOP mouthpiece.

    We won’t prosecute – Really!

  214. 214.

    beltane

    @NotMax: Babs doesn’t appear to be in the hair-tousling mood. She is very angry at the school for not protecting her boy from the bully Trump.

  217. 217.

    oldgold

    Todd and Maddow are not facilitating the discussion. Rather, they are actively interfering with it. Pitiful.

  220. 220.

    Kropadope

    @MomSense: If you go to BernieSanders.com you can watch Bernie Sanders’s speech when he voted against the War in Iraq and, thought it gives him no pleasure to say this, much of what he predicted came true.

  222. 222.

    hilts

    @Cacti:

    “Hillary is a progressive EVERY day.”

    Jeff Cohen has a great post on Huffington Post debunking this bullshit claim by Hillary:

    “Promoting fracking worldwide is not progressive

    Boosting corporatist trade deals is not progressive

    Enabling military coups is not progressive

    Pocketing millions from corporate lecture fees is not progressive

    Escalating the afghan war is not progressive

    Chaotic military intervention in the mideast is not progressive”

    h/t http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-cohen/hillary-clinton-turns-sta_b_9159604.html

  227. 227.

    geg6

    And just fuck Rachel Maddow. She’s no better than the rest of them now. there is no one among any of our media that are worthy of being presidential debate moderators. They are nothing but entertainers aiming at the lowest common denominator. I hate them.

  231. 231.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Renie: “Me? a wimp? I’m gonna bring mom here to tell you to shut up!”

    @geg6: that question about the data breach, that it came up before Flint and a number of others that still haven’t, should make her ashamed

  233. 233.

    lol

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Yes, it’s a dumb question but Sanders straight up lied. His ad explicitly claimed the Valley News endorsed him. It wasn’t just quoting a bit of praise. The words “Endorsed by Valley News” appear on screen. It’s not ambiguous at all.

    And it’s sort of a pattern with his campaign.

  234. 234.

    hilts

    @magurakurin:

    Rachel Maddow is an insufferable, camera mugging doofus and Chuck Todd is a useless tool.

    Thomas Roberts and Chris Jansing should have been the moderators for this debate.

  236. 236.

    TaMara (BHF)

    What I love about these debate threads – you guys make me so much smarter. I really have to struggle to keep up with the breadth of knowledge brought to the table here. The debate here is often (especially on Red debate days) stronger than the debate between the candidates.

  239. 239.

    FlipYrWhig

    This who is and isn’t progressive thing is really stupid. They’re both progressive. There are many kinds of progressives, not just one. Gah.

  240. 240.

    beltane

    @Renie:It makes him look infantile, especially since it’s his mother doing all the talking. She would obviously like to be out there debating Trump herself. That would be quite the show.

  242. 242.

    jl

    @geg6: Whoa whoa whoa. Maddow asked substantive question on Flint. You want Todd and, say, Andrea Mitchell, running the whole thing?

    But neither candidate really answering.. No, OK, Sanders just did give an answer, and Sanders mentions what has apparently been a totally unimportant issue.

    Todd tries to ask a substantive question on an important topic. Chickens out and tries to turn it into a tired gotcha.

  245. 245.

    hilts

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Jeff Cohen founded the media watch group Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, was a senior producer for Phil Donahue’s MSNBC show, and wrote “Cable News Confidential: My Misadventures in Corporate Media”, among other things.

  247. 247.

    Princess

    @LeonS: Snuck into an omnibus bill both times? Fool me once…

    It is amazing how many bad votes Bernie has to explain away. Immigration, guns, and now derivatives. Oopsy.

  248. 248.

    jl

    All these deals China is doing? What is Todd talking about? What deals is China doing to ‘set the rules’ for trade? What does that mean?

    Maybe I am ignorant of something? Or did Todd blow another attempt to ask a substantive question?

    Edit: China is doing a lot ot establish economic relationships with other countries, but they are not trade agreements, as far as I know.

  251. 251.

    Cacti

    @jl:

    All these deals China is doing? What is Todd talking about? What deals is China doing to ‘set the rules’ for trade? What does that mean?

    Maybe I am ignorant of something? Or did Todd blow another attempt to ask a substantive question?

    It’s not Chuck’s job to report the facts.

    It shows.

  252. 252.

    Misterpuff

    Why hasn’t the Administration gone in and taken control in Flint anyway?

    And Mr. President, you can have the Governor arrested, while you’re at it.

  253. 253.

    NotMax

    @jl

    Not an unsupported assertion, but it is a vague one.

    See, for example, recently signed agreements with Iran and throughout a sizable area of Africa.

  254. 254.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Princess: If it were part of omnibus bills, I would cut Sanders a lot of slack on the issue. Every omnibus bill contains something someone doesn’t like.

  255. 255.

    Elie

    Bernie and the passion against TPP. THIS is his best and links to his anti corporatist approach. But unfortunately, it is shallow even if it is passionate. You can’t stop the train, Bernie. The US bails and this goes forward without us Unfortunately, the markets don’t wait for us. Our people, our young people particularly cannot be protected. They can only be prepared. He gets that part. But he is pandering to the people who think you can hold back inexorable change or even predict where and how it will evolve. We just don’t know. We Do Not Know. So yes, it is VERY scary, but the only prep is intense prep and getting our kids ready for it — not whining about or sealing off what is, in the end, unsealable. In this, he is not much different from the white people who want to go back to — whenever when “we were on top”.

  257. 257.

    LeonS

    @geg6: Suckered by a smart slick person like Gary Gensler who snuck language into a 300+ page bill (full disclosure: not really sure exactly how big the 2000 omnibus bill was, 2012 was 2000+ pages) vs. trusted George Bush? Nobody is immune to getting suckered ever, but there are easy cons and hard cons – and saying Hillary got suckered is the charitable interpretation.

    And its not like Sanders turned around and hired George Bush to be his foreign policy advisor. So yeah, IMO Bernie getting sucked was *way* better than Hillary getting suckered.

  258. 258.

    Cacti

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    If it were part of omnibus bills, i would cut Sanders a lot of slack on the issue. Every omnibus bill contains something someone doesn’t like

    When your political M.O. is how much more principled and pure you are than anyone else in Washington, nope, no slack.

  259. 259.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Anyone notice that during this long, long. long election cycle, Dubya hasn’t shown his face once.

  260. 260.

    jl

    @NotMax: AFAIK, those are not trade deals, and i don’t see how things like TPP have much do to with influence China gains from its bilateral developmental and instrastructure financing.

  262. 262.

    Elie

    @Misterpuff:

    Seriously?

    You would have the President take over a state government “just like that”? Do you think this is Rome? Honestly… is this what you would really like? Can you imagine, if O did that, what precedent that would set for some other state?

    Step back and take a breath…

  265. 265.

    FlipYrWhig

    Bernie really believes that campaign finance reform and a bunch of angry people will fix politics. That’s just daft.

  267. 267.

    jl

    HRC gives very sensible answer to silly question, which is essentially ‘Why don’t you say things as dumb as the GOPers do”/ Probably means a new HRC scandal.

    Edit: Todd, bloody but unbowed, punches away at a horse race veep question. Sanders and HRC kiss and make up on stage, MSNBC producers stroke out.

  273. 273.

    FlipYrWhig

    @magurakurin: If I’m Mitch McConnell I say “look at all those stupid fuckers on the lawn, it’s going to be fun messing with them and daring them to do their worst.”

  276. 276.

    magurakurin

    There are times when I really think the major problem with Sanders’ campaign is Devine and Weaver. That last comment was one of them. Sanders at his core is a stand up guy. The books are going to be very revealing I think.

  278. 278.

    PhoenixRising

    @FlipYrWhig: Yup. This debate was where I got it, at last; he is a true believer. He truly thinks that if we reform how our politics is paid for, everything else falls into place.

    How do you get to be that age believing in the One True Answer?

  280. 280.

    FlipYrWhig

    If the people say the government belongs to us and the Republicans say, “eh, we’re good, run along now,” then what?

  282. 282.

    Misterpuff

    @Elie: Did not say take control of Michigan state government, but go in and treat Flint as a crisis on the scale of tornado or hurricane instead of the inaction shown by all levels of government thus far.
    Bottled water? Water bills for poisoned water? Acting like people can live in the midst of a compromised system.
    This demands action, both in the short-term and the long term.

  283. 283.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @efgoldman: I would love to but it’s going to be a very short night. Sanders has a 25 to 30 point lead in NH so I expect the race to be called immediately after polls close.

  284. 284.

    Baud

    So now they’ll have political commentary where they talk about things other than how awful Chuck Todd is.

  285. 285.

    Cacti

    @FlipYrWhig:

    If the people say the government belongs to us and the Republicans say, “eh, we’re good, run along now,” then what?

    Then we will vigorously wave our “Feel the Bern” signs until they submit to our demands.

  289. 289.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Elie: I agree with much of what he said, but you are right that the closing comments of a debate are not the place to make those points – at least not in that way.

  290. 290.

    jl

    @Baud: That damn Baud! was the only one who gave the Todd questions exactly the time and attention they deserved. People should wake up and vote Baud! 2016!

    He’ll be so happy of someone can find him and sober…er… wake him up.

  291. 291.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Omnes Omnibus: There are many, many things to hold against Chuck Todd, being short is the least of them.*

    *This message was brought to you by the Society for the Vertically Challenged.

  292. 292.

    mike in dc

    I did like Sanders talking about his father. Even if it was planned, it still came across as heart felt.

  293. 293.

    NotMax

    Now Chris Matthews gets to drone on that MSNBC can do no wrong and that the problem with Clinton and Sanders is they’re not Chris Matthews.

    *scrambles for remote*

  294. 294.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @jl: Bringing Baud’s unfortunate laudanum and absinthe issues into the public sphere is a cheap trick.

  297. 297.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @NotMax:

    *scrambles for remote*

    If you were a “Real American”, and not some Commie Pinko, you’d just shoot the TV.

  307. 307.

    oldgold

    According to MSNBC rated right up there with the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Not because of the debaters, but because of the incredible MSNBC moderators. They have no shame.

  310. 310.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    MSNBC building up the mystery of the those speech transcripts… PROVE YOU NEVER GAVE A SECRET SCANDALOUS SPEECH!

  311. 311.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Hillary says “Let’s not be presumptuous, get ahead of ourselves”, but Sanders “would be the first person she called”.

    Here’s his number 867-5309

  312. 312.

    Baud

    I’m glad Trump didn’t have a rally going on during the debate or MSNBC might have switched to it.

  317. 317.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @schrodinger’s cat: Military swords are fairly dull these days as they are purely ceremonial. OTOH, in the past one of the signs that a real shootin’ war was imminent was that officers and cavalrymen got orders to sharpen their swords.

  320. 320.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @NotMax:

    If that line is busy, try Pennsylvania 6-5000.

    But make sure you don’t dial Transylvania 6-5000, that’ll get you tRump.

  321. 321.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Elie: I’m not actually sure Trump is dying. He was way down in one national poll so far, which is inconsistent with some others.

    His behavior post-Iowa came across as ridiculous to most people, but maybe not to the people who support him already–and he actually kind of had a point about the Cruz campaign’s sleazy behavior, if not that the caucus should be annulled. I’d guess it doesn’t hurt him much.

  322. 322.

    LeonS

    @Princess: Snuck into an omnibus bill by Hillary Clinton’s economic advisor, that is her *current* economic advisor. So yeah, we have Bernie made a mistake vs Hillary is still actively supporting one.

    I think its still pretty easy to see who we can trust on this issue…

  326. 326.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Vlad was was born in Transylvania, true (I’ve been to the building he was born in). His family was in exile from Wallachia, which he eventually ruled.*

    *The ex was Romanian. I learned shit.

  331. 331.

    Adam L Silverman

    @magurakurin: For all that she’s a pretty good interviewer, she is either exceedingly politically naive or has decided to play that as her persona on MSNBC. She should know better, and I would argue its the latter and she does know better, but given what it takes to get a DPhil from Oxford (not much actually), its possible she’s really that naive. Moreover, I’ve noticed an unfortunate trend, which is that she’s purposefully tried to make herself the cool geek/nerd girl of the political journalism, political commentary, and political set. Hence the bartending and mixology at all the political-media events. Access and being accepted is more important than integrity.

  334. 334.

    dogwood

    @Misterpuff:
    I think federal powers are more limited for man-made disasters than natural disasters. They can’t even declare a state of emergency in cases like Flint.

  337. 337.

    Oldgold

    This is an excellent synopsis of the debate from the Atlantic.

    “The duo seemed determined to illustrate Archilochus’s classic binary between the fox, who knows many things, and the hedgehog, who knows one important thing. Sanders knows that what the country needs—the only thing it needs—is a political and economic revolution. Clinton knows the country needs progressive policies on a range of matters and a pragmatic, realistic strategy to implement them.”

  338. 338.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jl: China has been very aggressive in parts of Africa. Basically state backed industry, often resource extraction of some type, but also infrastructure development, and are able to undercut other (read US, but also European business interests) by capitalizing on local discontent with western multinational and western corporate behaviors. The Chinese companies come in, do their thing, often bring a lot of their labor with them from China. This last generally pisses the locals off as badly as US and European corporate behavior as they expected those jobs to stay local. They are also attempting to replicate this in other places like South and Central America.

  340. 340.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Misterpuff: Because municipalities are creations of states, not the Federal government. As for not arresting anyone, this is the result of Congressional, specifically Congressional Republican (both during the Bush 43 Administration and more recently under the Obama Administration), efforts to gut the enforcement mechanisms in many of the Federal environmental protection laws. The result is that it makes it very difficult to charge, let alone prosecute, for an environmental law infraction unless someone actually lies or falsifies something in regards to them. Yes, its whacked, but it is, unfortunately what we’ve got.

  342. 342.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Misterpuff: Man made disasters cannot be declared Federal disasters like in the aftermath of hurricanes or tornadoes or floods or earthquakes. This is by Federal law, so it could be changed, but that would require Congressional action, which won’t happen. They have to be treated differently.

  343. 343.

    seaboogie

    @NotMax:

    Hillary’s to-do list:

    1) Show up for debate
    2) Give strong, confident presentation
    3) Return Joan Crawford’s shoulder pads.

    Would you give the fashion critique a rest, already? Clinton always looks polished and appropriate. She is intelligent, prepared and has a sense of humor.

  344. 344.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @seaboogie: She seemed more stylish than Bernie who looked like he was wearing a Brooks Brothers suit from 1965.

    ETA: Might you not apply the sense of humor thing to NotMax?

  345. 345.

    seaboogie

    @Omnes Omnibus: Re: the sense of humor thing – mebbe so. I guess that as a female, I am sensitive to the completely non-substantive criticism that women face WRT appearance, so it is harder to see the sarcasm in jest there sometimes. We are just so weary of the physical judgement, especially when we are less juicy in a physical way, and rather much more juicy in a substantive way WRT to accomplishments and life experience.

    I work semi-full time in an artisan fine jewelry boutique in Sonoma, so I spend a lot of time helping women to find something that suits them particularly well, and hear so much “oh, my neck, oh, my hands”, self-criticism that we have been fed. I don’t hear it from everyone – but I do hear it every day – even from the young ones. For the record, Hillz’s jewels are totally on trend: the shorter choker length, the tiny pendant….she nailed it (or rather, her stylist did).

  348. 348.

    NotMax

    @seaboogie

    It’s unfortunate (and yes, unfair), but due to Bill no Clinton should come within a country mile of being able to be linked with the words pearl necklace.

    ;)

  351. 351.

    seaboogie

    @NotMax:

    It’s unfortunate (and yes, unfair), but due to Bill no Clinton should come within a country mile of being able to be linked with the words pearl necklace.

    Oh yeah, I totally went there too! I do haz a sense of humor, but per my post above, I experience daily how women incorporate judgement of their physical appearance. Annnnnd – then we have The Donald!

  352. 352.

    NotMax

    @seaboogie

    Not even close.

    Only red carpet I ever had any interest in was almost new the one* given to my mother and step-father for their bedroom when I moved to Hawaii.

    *Technically, the color was cinnabar, but close enough.

  353. 353.

    seaboogie

    @NotMax: My bad. There is some commenter here whose nym I forget who tends to post links to red carpet celebs that he admires – usually OT.

    I was just thinking of how appropriately Bernie and Hillary dress for themselves. And also of the beauty and pageantry of having two intelligent, capable people debating for us Dems v. the Repub hot mess.

    Can you imagine if Bernie showed up in Armani, and Hillz was sporting a Sister Sarah outfit?

  355. 355.

    seaboogie

    @David *Rafael* Koch: You’d a thunk I would’ve remembered your nym. Are you also “Born in Canada”, and how do you switch between the two so effortlessly – now that you’ve outed yourself…..?

  358. 358.

    Groucho48

    I missed this debate but did browse many of the comments. A few months ago, I was a Sanders supporter as I agreed with his abstract economy stuff and I bought a bit into the right wing framing on Clinton as a war-mongering Wall Street lackey. But, after listening to the other debates and various interviews and such with her, I think Clinton is at least as liberal as Sanders. I have become fairly convinced she is no more likely to get us involved in a ME war because she is supposedly a hawk, and she is less likely to because she has a much better grasp of foreign policy than Sanders has. I agree with her on health care. Socially, I think she is as least as liberal as Sanders on things such as abortion, contraceptives, racial inequalities, gay rights, equal pay for equal work. Sanders talks about the environment and climate change more than Clinton, but, I don’t see their positions being very far apart. I AM a bit concerned about all the money she’s gotten from Wall Street, but, on the other hand, she already has it and she has more than enough to live very well forever, and, she got that money right out in the open. Will she devote all her energy to reining in Wall Street? Almost certainly not. Will she be the lackey of Wall Street that the right and concern trolls assert that she will? I don’t think so. I honestly think she will be more effective at reining in Wall Street than Obama was. He really wimped out there. That’s probably my main complaint about him. Well, that and appointing and backing Arne Duncan as Secretary of Education. That was worse by far than any of his financial appointments, as bad as they were. Even given that, though, Obama has been the best President of my lifetime. I really think Clinton will follow those giant footsteps.

  359. 359.

    Applejinx

    This was amazing: http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/01/19/hillary-blames-bernie-old-clintonite-hustle-and-thats-rotten-shame

    So her campaign is trying to use this as a gotcha, but the person responsible for drafting this deregulation not only did it for Bill Clinton, but is her top economic advisor NOW?

    Holy jesus fuck, that is just messed up. It’s honestly upsetting. If you can attack a guy for voting (thanks omnibus bill) for ‘evil legislation’ that YOUR husband was pushing for, written by a guy who was not only on YOUR side but is now YOUR key economic guy, what the freaking hell?

    How is this not a very creepy and twisted attack that justifies many concerns about Clinton being untrustworthy? The guy is her economic advisor NOW. He’s right fucking there. Along with DWS, can we clamor for her to cut all ties with him, since his advice is apparently so awful that it’s disgraceful for Sanders ever to have voted for it, even stuck into an omnibus?

  360. 360.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Applejinx: Uh, I think the point is that Bernie Sanders sometimes votes for the sorts of things he’s made a campaign out of decrying. (Has she used any word like “disgraceful”?) To wit: he also voted for the crime bill his supporters have been lambasting as evidence of Hillary Clinton’s indifference towards the problems of people of color. It’s meant to be a little jab, not a big wallop. If this is “messed up” and “honestly upsetting” to you, I think you need to recalibrate your sentiment-o-meter.

  363. 363.

    Uncle Cosmo

    Haven’t watched any of the debates on either side so far…but from everything I’ve heard about them it sounds like exactly what one might expect when you leave the derangements ;) to corporate hacks trying to squeeze as much profit out of the situation as possible. Because it’s the same god-damned thing that happened when Mr. Wide-World-Of-Sports Roone Arledge (damn his non-soul to hell) took over ABC News & said, Fuck that public-service shit, we’re gonna make this operation turn a profit!

    Siriusly, folks, doesn’t anyone else remember what happened 8 years ago when the Democratic field narrowed to 2 candidates? Issues, what issues, it’s all hesaidshesaid all the time & any marginally plausible scandal we can dig up (or manufacture). And today, welcome to The Bernie/Hill Show, all slapstick all the time & a fine counterprogram to Your Kavalcade of Klowns on the other side of the aisle……

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