Has any would-be successor embraced a sitting president’s policies and legacy as closely as Hillary Clinton has? If so, I can’t recall it. The Republicans’ quadrennial tussle over Reagan’s shabby mantle doesn’t count because Reagan is a) dead, and b) stopped being president nearly 30 years ago.
It’s smart politics for Clinton to glom onto President Obama because he is a beloved and respected figure among Democrats, and Clinton is trying to win the Democratic primary. (It also makes sense because she was a key figure in the administration.) But notwithstanding the tweeted observations of folks like Propane Jane (as excerpted in Anne Laurie’s long reads thread the other day), I don’t think the winning equation in the general election is as simple as “embrace PBO -> collect party nomination -> become president.”
If PBO could run for a third term, I think he’d win. But there are plenty of reasons to doubt the wholesale transferability of the Obama coalition. Right now, each Democratic candidate seems to have coopted only parts of it, with Sanders collecting an impressive portion of the youngs and Clinton so far banking the lion’s share of the minority vote and olds. But if she prevails in the primary, Clinton will face the Obama third-term dilemma in the general.
Elections, like sequels to successful film franchises, can’t be all about the past. In the 2016 election, particularly the primary, some fan service is warranted because the departing president has been as successful and consequential as any in (most of) our lifetimes. But if “Democrats 2016: The Force Awakens” is to be a hit in its own right, the protagonist is going to need her own storyline, especially in the general.
So what is Clinton’s storyline, aside from the obvious historical nature of her candidacy? Experience and pragmatism are the watchwords so far. Booman believes Clinton is blowing it by “coming across as the ‘No, We Can’t’ candidate.” He gives her credit for not overpromising but says her realism has “pushed [her] into being a naysayer who can’t speak to the aspirations of the base.”
Maybe. But I think she’s playing the long game, banking on PBO’s sky-high popularity with Democrats, her own policy chops and squeamishness about the “S” word to deliver the nomination, after which she hopes to pivot to the general, where even her talk about a cautious expansion of the ACA, etc., will be perceived as wild-eyed profligacy by about 60 million voters, the House majority and whichever hairball the GOP horks up as her opponent. No more trouble with “No, We Can’t” in that environment.
Is it a good gamble? Fuckifino. What do you think?
Baud
The Obama coalition is a general election coalition. Whoever wins the nomination needs to find a way to keep it intact.
Baud
Clinton also cannot overtake Sanders on the left on any issue except guns it would be mistake for her to take the bait to try.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think one unique key to the Obama coalition is Obama himself> I think even at this late date the number of people excited by him (on our side, of course) goes well beyond those who wanted to primary him in 2012 and/or still wanna play a game of purity “what-about?.. ism (a group overrepresented in blogs, I think). Clinton and her team have a different kind of work to do. I have no doubt Obama (both Obamas) will be part of that team, Sanders too, but it’ll still be up to her build things up.
@Baud: David Corn is arguing that gun culture is one of the under-appreciated reasons Sanders is drawing NH support against Clinton (blue collar areas where people hunt)
Lolis
I think it was a smarter play six months ago. Bernie didn’t act like he expected to be competitive. I don’t think many people thought it was a serious candidacy. He is so old and not a Democrat. His fans have already started going emo and are super annoying. All my facebook friends who “feel the bern” do nothing in politics except bitch. Yet somehow they think this is a revolution. Ferfukssake people are stupid. When I gently point out problems with Bernie’s plans and electability they try to play the crushing idealism line. I still think Hillary is gonna win the primary and general but Bernie fans seem to be delusional so no telling what they will do.
RaflW
O.T., but douchenozzle Scott Walker has just signed a bill legalizing concealed switchblades in Wisconsin. What possible use is that? Was there an outcry from the knife-fetishists?
Archon
@Baud: Clinton is definitely trying to get to Sanders left on immigration too. I suspect that Sanders no vote on immigration reform in 2007 will a be a major talking point once we get to states with large Latino populations
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@RaflW: he doesn’t want to get hassled by Officer Krupke when he whips out his way-cool switch-comb to cover up that secular tonsure
Percysowner
I do think she learned from Gore’s “let’s pretend Bill Clinton didn’t exist” policy. Will it win her the nomination and election? Who knows. Does it mean Obama will probably work to get her elected to preserve his legacy? I’m sure it will in the general.
p.a.
despite her strong support among African Americans can she achieve Obama-like turnout percentages? If not, can she make up the difference by upping the Dem’s female vote share? Will Dem turnout overall decline because we aren’t facing a possible world economic collapse and Iraq-like frakup a la ’08?
Just Some Fuckhead
Clinton’s national polling lead is evaporating so we’ll soon see what her voting coalition looks like.
Kropadope
Without getting into spoilers, I can see one big problem with this analogy.
I think Bernie is way more pragmatic than he is given credit for and takes the time to point this out on the campaign trail, contrary to the “all he offers is pie in the sky” critique. It’s sad that not many people take notice of this.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Not a doubt in my mind he will do everything he can for just that reason.
Two GOP primary candidates have already talked about spanking her, and the Doge of the Village said she needs to learn to use her indoor voice. I don’t think that trend is going to decline.
NCSteve
Obama is incredibly popular among people who identify themselves as Democrats. He is untainted by the slightest trace of scandal. Attempting to distance herself from him in any way would be suicidal in the primaries. If she gets the nomination, then, yes, she has to deal with the fact that Obama has consistently been a few points underwater in over all approval, and very underwater in foreign policy approval for among all registered voters for quite some time now.
Because all this acting like a grown-up dealing with complex international problems in an intelligent fashion shit doesn’t get it with the Holy Independents who are insufficiently civic minded to pay any goddamn attention but are too civic minded to not vote. All of their experience watching movies tells them that that’s not how you get things done in the real world.
But yeah, last time I saw anything like it was in ’88, GHWB linked himself as closely to Reagan then as Hillary is linking herself to Obama now.
James E Powell
@Percysowner:
What you say about Gore is legend, not history. Something everybody knows, but no one can come up with evidence of it.
Emma Anne
As I recall, HW clung to Reagan’s policies and legacy quite firmly – even the parts he had to swallow in order to be allowed to be VP (abortion and voodoo economics). Gore did not embrace Clinton that much, I think because he was pissed off at being lied to. Not good strategy, but quite understandable to me – I was pissed off at being lied to as well. W’s presidency ended in tragedy and fiasco, so it made sense that not that much embracing went on.
And that is all the two-term presidents I have been alive for. So Hillary doesn’t seem out of the mainstream to me.
MattF
@Percysowner: I agree that Gore made various mistakes, and his rejection of ‘Clintonism’ was one of them. It’s not surprising, given what happened to Gore, that a Clinton would be eager to embrace Obama.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if President Hillary does quite a few things differently from Obama– and it might be a good thing if she would go ahead and say so.
HRA
My mother had a saying about catching more flies with honey rather than with vinegar. If HRC wins the nomination, would it not be practical to want the Sanders supporters to be voting for her? Assuming their roll in politics as do nothings and calling them delusional is not the path to take.
I have not committed to one or the other yet and this constant trend in these posts tires me and ticks me off.
Frivolous
@Just Some Fuckhead:
As I recall, according to Nate Silver at 538, national polling doesn’t matter much.
chopper
worked for O.
EriktheRed
I think it is, too, but I’m open the possibility of that being proven wrong, unfortunately.
Fair Economist
@Kropadope: Bernie, as a legislator, is pretty pragmatic. The problem is that he’s chosen to hitch his campaign to something totally unattainable (single-payer health care NOW), and that will probably be pretty unpopular with the general election voters, since it amounts to increasing *workers’* taxes to reduce *employer’s* insurance payments. A net benefit to the economy, sure, but there’s a massive distributional issue.
IMO it’s just one more reason to indicate Bernie intended his campaign to move the Overton Window, not to actually get nominated. If he’d actually been expecting a nomination he would have picked something more doable and generally popular, like climate change or banking reform, as the hill to do or die on.
Kropadope
@Archon:
I would like to see Bernie discuss this vote in deeper detail. If I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of the guest worker program wouldn’t give these workers the protections that working citizens have, so it would lead to exploitation of everyone, the guest workers and citizen workers, both immigrants and those born here.
Russ
Bought and paid for………
RaflW
@Kropadope: “contrary to the ‘all he offers is pie in the sky’ critique”
Well, there’s been a fair bit of detailed assessment of his healthcare plan and so far it is more like vaporware. I think Bernie is playing an important role in moving the Democratic discussions far to the left of where Clinton would instinctively have wanted to run. And I think she would have gotten her butt handed to her in the general if she ran the sort of centrist pablum campaign I suspect she wanted to run. The 90s are over and Clinton triangulation was a tactic that only worked then.
So I’m thankful for Sander’s run and what he is injecting. But I don’t find him pragmatic in the way that would work for national policy agenda-setting. Is he up to the task of Senatoring? For sure. Presidenting? I am just not convinced.
Amir Khalid
So what should Hillary do, make sweet-sounding but unrealistic promises like Bernie? That would ring false, coming from her. I know the worry for Hillaristas is that she can’t match Bernie’s shiny new Pure Outsider Hotness among the youths, but what she does have is a level of intellectual substance and real-world experience that he can’t compete with. She should keep on reaching out to young people, working on her own message without trying to copy Bernie’s.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s a mis-step for Bernie to repudiate, however subtly, the legacy of a popular outgoing Democratic president. I reckon Hillary is sincere in wanting to preserve and extend it, and that’s a plus for her.
bin Lurkin'
Clinton is a Compact Disc playing Don’t Stop Thinking About Tomorrow on a boombox, Sanders is a 12TB NAS streaming Elysium by Chromecast to a big screen home theater with dual 18″ subwoofers. You can feel the difference.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Frivolous: It sure mattered when it was the reason Sanders couldn’t win the nomination. The Clinton campaign isn’t working because over half of Democratic primary voters would rather vote for an unknown Muslim African-American than Hillary Clinton and now it looks like they would rather vote for a gadfly socialist atheist Jew.
The dogs ain’t eating the dog food. My fellow Clinton supporters can continue to blame the dogs. Maybe that will work.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
OT, increasingly OT every day
The story was that he was always the old man’s son, and the other one, the entitled little viper who knew how to play the faux-folksy guy, took after the flesh-eating ogress who managed to disguise herself as our national grandma for thirty years.
also
Oh, I think we’re over it, Jebbie, I do think so.
Bartholomew
From what I gather, there are a lot of people who see the 2008 financial crisis as an accident we’ve put behind us, and therefore also believe the status quo can be built from and expanded to again include a broad swath of Americans in a vibrant economy. These folks typically support Clinton.
There are others who see the 2008 financial crisis as an enacted agenda that was papered over by new debt, and that our situation is actually quite more dire and being manipulated into worse crisis through austerity and ‘free market’ soapsuds … all to bring about (finalize?) a new corporate banking world order. This is what fuels the Sanders choice, or at least I think it is.
What may be the game-changer is that the Democratic Party seems to have reached a kind of ultimate endgame of contempt for its supporters, by forcing voters to accept the single ‘viable’ candidate. It is amazing really.
* * * *
Bernie Sanders puts Wall Street on notice: “On day one, I am appointing a special committee to investigate the crimes on Wall Street” (http://www.salon.com/2015/11/18/bernie_sanders_puts_wall_street_on_notice_on_day_one_i_am_appointing_a_special_committee_to_investigate_the_crimes_on_wall_street/)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Just Some Fuckhead: The Clinton campaign isn’t working because over half of Democratic primary voters would rather vote for an unknown Muslim African-American than Hillary Clinton and now it looks like they would rather vote for a gadfly socialist atheist Jew.
you’re confusing the Democratic base, the Republican base, and the national electorate all at once. Quite an achievement for one sentence.
RaflW
@bin Lurkin’: That Clinton image? Spot on. Sanders? He’s maybe an XM radio playing a weirdly echoey Democracy Now! rebroadcast.
randy khan
@NCSteve:
But Sanders has been critical of Obama, and so far it hasn’t killed him. Granted, he wasn’t in the Administration, but it’s interesting nevertheless.
cmorenc
@James E Powell:
Gore exuded an “ick” vibe toward Bill Clinton throughout the 2000 campaign over his seamy sex scandal, the tangible manifestation of which was keeping Clinton at distant arm’s length, rarely campaigning with Clinton.
Kropadope
@Fair Economist:
That’s just one thing he wants to do among many. His top priorities also include massively investing in our crumbling infrastructure, energy reform, and going after the loophole-sheltered wealth of the exploitative among the wealthy.. It doesn’t get the same amount of attention because it’s not as sexy as single-payer, but that doesn’t mean he’s not pushing those things on his agenda.
Betty Cracker
@HRA: What trend?
Mnemosyne
@Emma Anne:
These were both before my time and in different circumstances, but Truman and LBJ clung to the reputations of their predecessors to get elected in their own rights.
I can’t think of a successful presidential candidate who distanced himself from his own party’s president and still won. If Sanders does win the nomination, he’s going to need to pivot to hugging Obama PDQ.
Kropadope
@randy khan:
Well, I think voters recognize that no one, including Obama and Sanders, is perfect.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@RaflW: maybe the billionaires have cars with XM radio, bernie gets Democracy Now on an old transistor he taped to the dashboard of his ’78 Fairmont. You run a foil antenna out the window and tape it the antenna and it’s like Amy Goodman is right there in the rumble seat.
Chyron HR
@bin Lurkin’:
And yet some silly people still don’t take Sanders’ campaign seriously.
El Caganer
Fuck it. I’m voting for Jonah Goldberg: A chicken in every pot and a pantload on every TV screen.
Archon
@p.a.:
Good news for the Dems though is it seem like the Republican trend line is to find a nominee more ridiculous then the last guy nominated. By 2020 Joe the Plumber might be the GOP nominee.
gene108
@RaflW:
I don’t think any Democrat in 2016 was planning on running a centrist campaign. Affordable college, raising minimum wage, etc. are boiled into the platform of any would be Dem candidate this year.
***************************************************
I think her challenge in connecting with people is not “no we can’t”, which is how it is portrayed, but to prove the current system can work for people, without tearing the whole thing down.
A lot of people are feeling rather hopeless.
Ran across this recently and I think it captures something in regards to not wanting to vote for Hillary versus Bernie:
Link
The piece takes it as a foregone conclusion that the current two party system is incapable of addressing their concerns and whatever changes happen will not be enough to help.
And I think this is Hillary’s problem.
She has to show how changes to the PPACA can fix holes in the affordability part of the current insurance system.
She needs to trumpet her plan for affordable college more loudly.
She’s not that that far to the right of Bernie on most issues, but for many I think the feeling is nothing is really going to change, no matter who gets elected.
chopper
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
still better than jeb, a 1972 orange hatchback with bald tires and a brown door.
Fair Economist
@RaflW:
Hillary’s been running to the left before even starting the campaign. Shortly after Ferguson, and long before any other party leader, she came out strongly in favor of major principles of the Black Lives Matter movement – before it was even called that. Before Bernie was considered a serious threat, she was in favor of gender pay equality, a huge increase in the minimum wage, increased unionization and union power, and legalizing medical marijuana. Compared to even Obama, she’s been running as a wild-eyed liberal from the word go in this campaign.
Emma
@Bartholomew: It’ll be over with fairly quick. Most of the things that happened to screw up our economy were LEGAL. (added) and Sanders should know that, he’s been in Congress long enough.
Paul Gottlieb
Remember President Al Gore’s brilliant pivot away from the Clinton legacy? The fact is, the Obama coalition, which bears an enormous resemblance to the Bill Clinton coalition, is the only feasible winning Democrat coalition. Bernie and his followers seem to be be giving the old McGovern/Mondale coalition another try. It won’t be pretty
Kropadope
@RaflW:
I think a big part of the problem with the unveiling of his healthcare plan is that he rushed it out, clearly before it was ready, because of the pressure from the Clinton campaign which was pretty much lying about his wanting to scrap Medicare, Medicaid, and the ACA. Letting your opponents push you around like that is a huge mistake.
That said what Clinton has seemed unable to recognize, even 20 years after her own healthcare debacle, is that plans for legislation coming from executives and would-be executives are aspirational at best. You don’t just drop a bill in Congress’s lap and have them vote on it as is. They need to have a say and, ultimately, be the ones to craft the legislation. They are, after all, the legislative branch.
Kropadope
@Paul Gottlieb:
Do you honestly believe that most of the people who voted for McGovern or Mondale have Sanders as their first choice? You must know that can’t be correct.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Only because she’s being judged against the “Nothing Is Impossible, If We Clap” candidate, against the Revolution that sometimes isn’t a Revolution, or will be a Revolution by amendments, or something.
@chopper: aw c’mon, that’s at least a ’79 Seville, or a Towncar from before all that vulgar aerodynamics made all motorcars look alike
Eric S.
My concern with the general election is the enthusiasm gap. As I recall PBO had record numbers of minorities and young people excited and voting for him. I worry we will see a measurable fall off in the number of those voters. I know personally I have the worst political hangover from the last 8 years.I’m just not that into it this year. No worries, I’ll be out there voting because I fear what the GOP would do if they gain power but right now I have 0 enthusiasm for it.
Additionally, I worry that the small percentage of true, undecided voters in the middle, those that switch between parties, will think, “It’s time for a change,” and vote for the Republican.
J R in WV
@James E Powell:
No dude, I was there, politically interested, Gore never said the word Clinton, and Clinton never appeared on the stage with Gore.
Remember, Tipper, at that time important to Al Gore, was inclined to faint at the sound of rock albums. I can’t imagine how she reacted to the Oval Office blow job between consenting adults, but I can imagine that if Gore didn’t want Tipper appearing at Republican rallies, he had to abandon Clinton at his rallies.
gene108
@Amir Khalid:
She’s not a natural politician. Bill would have already co-opted Bernie’s tone and seeming empathy for the little people, as Bill said in 1992, “I feel your pain” and he’d bring that back in again.
I think Hillary needs to show that she will not be more of the same, but will push things in a direction that will benefit more people.
@Kropadope:
Name one Democrat, who is not talking about fixing crumbling infrastructure, closing tax loopholes for the wealthy (and/or raising taxes on the rich) and expanding renewable energy usage?
What makes Bernie unique is single-payer and free college for everyone.
HRA
@Betty Cracker:
Fair Economist
@Kropadope:
No, it’s Bernie, or at least his followers, who doesn’t seem to understand it. Just as there was no way Hillarycare was getting through the Congress in 1993 there’s no way (and I mean none) Berniecare is getting through Congress in 2017. Hillary learned her lesson then which is why all her proposals are doable, or at least will extract a heavy political penalty for the Republicans to oppose.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: So the argument of your first paragraph is that we should (once again) take everything Mr Authentic says with another grain of salt, and of your second that Revolutionary President Bernie will find compromise with Paul Ryan?
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@gene108: Hillary’s problem is that she’s fighting upstream against the collision of the outrage society with the microwave society. People are outraged and angry and they want someone to do something right now.
BruceFromOhio
Fuck a what?
Germy
@BruceFromOhio: damfino
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG5aSZBAuPs
Frankensteinbeck
Hillary only looks apathetic compared to Sanders’ Revolution rhetoric. Get her in the general against a Republican, and her regulate Wall Street, increase the minimum wage, justice for minorities, expand the ACA, foreign policy through diplomacy, and Republicans are fucking obstructionist jackasses platforms will all seem pretty damn aspirational.
@Just Some Fuckhead:
The point of the ‘not national polling’ is that state by state polling over the whole country makes a bigger difference, which Hillary is winning solidly, which Hillary supporters have been shorthanding as ‘national support.’ It’s moot, because Hillary’s lead has not changed. The Quinnipac poll that’s making the rounds was a huge outlier among the other polls taken at the same time. The PPP poll on the same day had her at +21, for example.
@Bartholomew:
Hell, no. We think that the way to prevent another crash is to regulate the Hell out of Wall Street, as Clinton proposes, and breaking up the banks, prosecuting bankers, and repealing GS are feel-good measures that will not fix the problem. They might be great to do anyway, but I support the person aiming at the disease, not the symptoms.
Betty Cracker
@Eric S.: My worries are along those lines too. Still, I feel pretty good about our chances with either candidate (both of whom I like and would gladly vote for).
Betty Cracker
@Frankensteinbeck: Your 2nd sentence would be a good “shorter” for my post.
gene108
@Bartholomew:
I don’t think many people, who have a handle on the issues view the financial crisis as a bad accident that can be put behind them. They know there were systemic flaws in the financial system.
They feel the reforms enacted in 2010 have helped limit those systemic flaws and we do not need to have another round of trashing the whole financial sector for shits and giggles because people are mad that people in the financial sector are doing better than someone in a rural town in eastern Kentucky, where the coal mine shut down 20 years ago and nothing came in to replace it; not even a Wal-Mart.
And the existing problems within the financial sector need to be dealt with differently than what FDR did in the 1930’s, by signing Glass-Steagall into law.
These are kooks, who may also believe the Tri-Lateral Commission, in conjunction with the Rothschilds, are planning to impose a New World Order.
Making policy decisions on these folks opinions is a bad idea.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: I wish I were there.
Davis X. Machina
“It’s smart politics for Clinton to glom onto President Obama because he is a beloved and respected figure among some Democrats,”
Fails to take into account the he’s-worse-than-Bush-he-sold-us-out-ers
p.a.
@El Caganer: Nepotism now, nepotism tomorrow, nepotism forever.
@chopper: AMC Gremlin.
rb
@Fair Economist:
And he would have hired a campaign manager earlier and traded up for a professional campaign manager at some point.
Frankensteinbeck
Ahem. REINSTATING GS. Thanks, Tourette’s. Ah, well. I’m pretty sure everyone understood.
Baud
@Davis X. Machina: Tiny percentage, if polling is to be believed.
Amir Khalid
@gene108:
Yes, Bill should definitely coach Hillary as much as he can on how to campaign. He’s the natural at it, as you say.
Baud
If elected president, I will have a three way with Glass and Steagall to prove how much I support Wall Street reform.
Davis X. Machina
@Fair Economist: Stop. Stop! You’re Contradicting the Narrative!
BruceFromOhio
@Betty Cracker: Either way, a very effective P/VP team.
@Baud: That is simultaneously funny and creepy.
Kropadope
@Fair Economist: Yet it always seems to be Clinton and the Clintonistas that will insist that their Democratic primary opponents, whether Obama or Sanders, put forth proposals that will survive Congress intact and not have to be broken into piece or pared down in scope.
No, she and her supporters simply assume those things are doable, but they will be subject to the same process that Bernie’s or Obama’s proposals went through. The cult of the presidency has embraced Hillary and continues to ignore that the bills need to go through committees and be debated and make it past filibusters and basically want to write Congress out of the equation altogether.
The very idea that doable-ness is an absolute criteria for presidential proposals goes a long way toward proving that.
Davis X. Machina
@Baud: Feh. Who needs polls, when there are internet comment sections?
Brachiator
Clinton is vulnerable even here.
My sister (and one of my brothers) are Hillary supporters. My mother “is tired of Hillary” and wishes that she would retire. My college age niece also does not like Hillary (not quite sure why).
On the other hand, my niece also has the best description of Sanders’ youth appeal: “He’s that crazy substitute teacher!”
Germy
The Borowitz Report – Sanders Admits Receiving Free Checking From Big Banks
rb
@Amir Khalid:
Hear hear. It’s is an enormous miscalculation, right up there with smearing Planned Parenthood. It’s not clear to me that he would win the nomination in any case, but these fumbles are going to make it a LOT more difficult.
p.a.
@Fair Economist:
So I guess there’ll be a push for ‘card check’ from day 1? Not holding my breath.
(Chorus: It’s not feasible. Pie in the sky.)
Me: so what? Put in the effort, expose your enemies for who and what they are.
p.a.
@Baud: Liz beat you to it! (sorry, bad taste, could… not… resist…)
Baud
@p.a.:
I haven’t heard Sanders talk about his proposals for unions. Probably because debate moderators have been teh suck in the issues they raise.
Baud
@p.a.: Bad taste? On this blog? Pshaw.
boatboy_srq
@Fair Economist: It’s worthwhile here to point out that employers originally offered health insurance to employees as an alternative to raising salaries. Single Payer takes that away, and makes employment less valuable.
Who among us thinks that business will immediately hand over an equivalent-after-taxes increase to their workers?
[crickets]
Exactly.
Employers have a hard enough time with minimum wage requirements and keeping verifiable work schedules for their people as it is. Removing a key intangible from the employment equation – indeed, about the last worthwhile non-salary compensation item in their playbook – is not a selling point for business, any more than living wage laws or breaking up Big Finance. What Sanders will need to achieve that is an overwhelming majority in the general, plus substantial coattails to bring Dems into Congress to support his agenda.
I like Sanders’ ideas. And I think they make him – him, himself, alone – electable. Where I have concerns is how much excess support he can deliver to the downstream contests he will need Dems to win to produce a Congress willing to work with him. Without a supportive Congress, a President Sanders will either be immediately stymied or forced to use the “tyrannical” Executive Orders BHO has been accused of – except that in Sanders’ case it would be far more frequent and far less removed from the excess the GOTea insists it fears. And yes, I expect the GOTea will go full-blown “one term President” obstructionist on Clinton as well, but I can’t help thinking that Clinton would be savvy enough to push initiatives advocating for regular respiration and against oral consumption of household cleansers (which would cause Teahadis to stop breathing and chug Drano), and I don’t see Sanders doing that.
Goblue72
@Lolis: Condescending arse much?
Felanius Kootea
I will gladly vote for either Hillary or Bernie in the general but there’s something about where Hillary is right now that makes me uneasy – maybe call it the Martha Coakley disease. An intelligent, capable woman (who has unfortunately been a successful target of right wing smears) who just fails to connect with or excite voters, especially when presenting in large groups. I’m not sure any amount of coaching from Bill can change that but she should try to do as many one-on-one meetings with voters as she can because everyone says that’s when she really shines.
Kay
@Baud:
And we need to stop talking about The Obama Coalition as if there’s a national popular vote. There isn’t. Democrats have to cobble together a fragile truce every election and if it’s a state they need but don’t necessarily get they have to take it right down to the county level. I’m a little alarmed that the youngs are being slotted into the “unnecessary” column and Democrats seem to be pursuing this strategy of scolding voters. We did the “scold the missing voters” thing in 2014. It wasn’t real successful.
I remain unconvinced that blaming voters is a good plan for a political Party, as I was in 2010 and 2014.
Baud
@Kay: I don’t see anything you see, Kay. Maybe I’m not watching closely enough.
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No, not at all. My argument is that we should look at the proposals of presidential candidates as aspirational and that they are only ever likely to be adopted in a piecemeal or incomplete fashion. Bernie has been very clear about this on the campaign trail, that he can’t do it all by himself and that people will fight him and that it won’t be easy and may occasionally be discouraging. The way that Clinton supporters ignore and/or aggressively lie about this fact is something I find really troubling.
Yes, just like any President would have to.
Goblue72
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Funny, I don’t recall much making fun of Hope and Change or Yes We Can around here in 2008.
You do understand the concept of slogans and campaign themes to excite supporters, don’t you?
Or are you another one of the BJ Boomer Conmentariat pissed the sun is setting on your generational relevance, realizing you fucked everything up, leaving a shitpile for us Xers and Millenials to fix? For which “No we can’t because Mean Republicans” is not a fucking answer.
Fair Economist
@Kropadope:
Minimum wage increases, closing the Romney loophole, cop cams, and medical marijuana toleration are all things that will definitely get through a Democratic Congress and might even get through a marginally Republican one. They’ll be modified, as it should be, but they can get through.
Single-payer health care and breaking up the big banks are simply not going to happen in any imaginable 2017 Congress. Large groups of Democratic Congresspeople are strongly opposed – including the next Dem Senatorial leader in the case of breaking up the banks.
That’s the difference – Hillary has an ambitious, strongly liberal, agenda, much of which could get through in 2017. Bernie is pushing a lot of great-sounding aspirational goals, but relatively little that could get through in 2017.
Obama’s agenda was much more in Hillary’s style. Most of his big proposals at least made it through the House and were stopped only by scorched-earth tactics by the Republican Senators.
Germy
“Do you still believe there’s a vast right-wing conspiracy?” Cooper asked.
“Yes. It’s gotten even better funded. You know they brought in some new multibillionaires to pump the money in,” she replied, before correcting herself. “At this point, it’s probably not correct to say it’s a conspiracy, because it’s out in the open,” she said. “They’re shopping among the Republican candidates to figure out who among them will most likely do their bidding. So just know what we’re up against, because it’s real, and we’re going to beat it. But it’s going to take everybody working together.”
Fair Economist
@Goblue72:
But Obama was mostly talking about things we *could* do, as opposed to things which just aren’t going to happen. And indeed, a great deal of it was done.
Another Holocene Human
Anybody see the video Hilary’s campaign just released? Seems very aware of the present:
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/696023384568700928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Don’t mean to be a hillbot, but it made me tear up.
Germy
@Goblue72: You do know that Bernie, Hillary and Obama are all boomers, right?
Have they also “fucked everything up”?
Another Holocene Human
Is Bernie Sanders a menace to the Democrats? Thought this was clickbait but the author made a point I hadn’t thought of before. He’s not talking about the electoral college, he’s talking about Bernie’s rhetoric, especially on Wall St.
Baud
@Fair Economist: Dems also controlled Congress when Obama was campaigning.
Another Holocene Human
@Fair Economist: Except for EFCA, something I still blame the complacent unions and not Obama for. If you can’t explain what the fuck your bill does….
But a LOT of people blamed Obama solely for this and considered him a betrayer for using “their” rhetoric (Si, Se Puede, which was a union slogan).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Goblue72: God, the funniest thing you do is harp on generational cohorts. You remind me of Buscemi on that episode of 30 Rock, “Greetings, fellow kids! What’s cool today?”
(30Rpck was a TV show that I’m sure was like too old and square for a dewey-eyed youth like you– ask your mom next time you go home to do laundry)
Germy
Every morning I thank the Lord that Xers and Millenials are here to fix everything up.
I mean, except for Dylann Roof.
But yeah, goddamn Boomers destroyed the world.
Kropadope
@Fair Economist:
And these are all things that both Sanders and Clinton want. You can have both practical goals and stretch goals and the latter don’t cancel out the former. There are plenty of practical things that Sanders wants to do and the fact that some of his goals look like they’re our of reach doesn’t mean that we can’t make some baby steps toward them.
Another Holocene Human
@Fair Economist: What do you think of the Overton Window argument that’s being advanced for Bernie Sanders’ campaign and in support of voting for him with the intent of winning office?
max
Long response. Sorry.
But notwithstanding the tweeted observations of folks like Propane Jane (as excerpted in Anne Laurie’s long reads thread the other day), I don’t think the winning equation in the general election is as simple as “embrace PBO -> collect party nomination -> become president.”
I read all of her tweets, and she has a lot of priors and says a lot of things I agree with, but it read like a missive from Bizarro World to me. Roughly speaking, I don’t think putting together Bill Clinton’s old coalition again is even possible, and obviously, Kerry’s and Gore’s coalitions were not good enough to win. PBO found a pretty good winning formula. What came across as bizarre was PJ’s implied assertion that PBO’s coalition is affluent (and economically conservative) whites, plus blacks and browns. That wasn’t PBO’s coalition, that’s the Old Republican coalition post-Roosevelt. They supported civil rights when the Democrats were still fond of the Klan, but it did not do them much good in elections, particularly after 1932. In the 1990’s you could sort of make that work, in that the economic conditions resembled the 1920’s (right down to the New Economy lingo), but really, Calvin Coolidge and Herbert Hoover are non-starters after 2008.
The PBO coalition, in contrast, is black, plus brown, plus the white lower middle class and poor in the North plus the affluent liberals (of which there are many fewer than affluent conservatives). Roughly speaking, we got creamed in 2010 and 2014 because that coalition didn’t turn out, in part because they don’t vote regularly the way the olds do, in part because they were too beaten down by economic conditions. Economic problems didn’t afflict affluent whites, so they were keen on that budget cutting/austerity silliness (our chance to stick it to the 47%!). PBO could turn them out in 2012 so he won, although it was a close run thing. If he’d gotten that budget deal all the establishment types were so fond of in 2011, he’d have gone down under the tide.
At any rate, our voters come from the lower classes (black brown AND white), plus a bunch of affluent/academic liberals, and the pitch Hill’s poster was making last summer was redolent of the late 80’s and early 90’s. (It gave me flashbacks!) It was all about appealing to ‘the middle class’ and avoiding the liberal label and the dreaded medium voter theorem. The problem is, is that in our current hyper-partisan, trench warfare environment, the only thing in the middle ground, are corpses, dead horses, mud and barbed wire.
The underlying strategy (not the win the day campaign stuff) they appear to be following is pretty much ‘appear to be moderate as possible’ combined with not making affluent whites unhappy. This going to be a change election whether you want it to be or not (because the aftereffects of the 00’s still linger), so you can get right with your base and turn them out and win, or you can milquetoast and probably (almost certainly) lose.
The media has been pimping for a Marco ‘Heliumhead’ Rubio vs. ‘Mean Old Hitlery’ Clinton fight since last year. They would allow them to pretend to be ‘with it’ while getting behind the R’s so the media can get their tax cuts and wars and stuff. (And then they can declare that racism is over (as they did with Obama), and divisiveness has ended and everything will be flowers and ponies now. This pitch would require contented bases to work, and ain’t nobody happy with the current situation. No blame accrues to PBO in my book – he has done the best he could with the materials he had at hand (congressional Democrats and clueless establishment media), and he did quite well. ‘Black Man Given Nation’s Worst Job‘.
Maybe. But I think she’s playing the long game, banking on PBO’s sky-high popularity with Democrats, her own policy chops and squeamishness about the “S” word to deliver the nomination, after which she hopes to pivot to the general, where even her talk about a cautious expansion of the ACA, etc., will be perceived as wild-eyed profligacy by about 60 million voters, the House majority and whichever hairball the GOP horks up as her opponent.
Oh, at that point I fully expect her to pivot to the hard right and run as the ‘competent’ war candidate. I expect most of that other stuff will be downplayed. She’s pitching to affluent whites, not the base – because that’s how it worked in the 90’s.
Is it a good gamble? Fuckifino. What do you think?
No. It’s the safe gamble though, and face it, the usual inside the Beltway suspects are chickenhearted (unless it’s for enormous tax cuts for rich people).
The argument against Bernie is that he’s too risky – and he isn’t my ideal candidate, but you gotta work with what you got, and sitting around with our thumbs up our asses while Trump runs rings around us is not my idea of good time. Sometimes you have to take risks, and this year is not a normal year.
max
[‘Mon centre cède, ma droite recule, situation excellente, j’attaque.‘]
Suzanne
@Baud: LMMFAO.
I would definitely support a candidate who made sexual freakiness a key part of his/her platform. Maybe just to see Talibangelical heads explode.
Another Holocene Human
@Goblue72: The Boomers fucked everything up? All by themselves? Ever heard of the Silent Gen? And what about the GenX Republican footsoldiers? Down the memory hole? Special Boy Marco Rubio is GenX. I guess he hasn’t ruined anything except the Republican Party of Florida’s credit [heh] because he’s too feckless to accomplish shit.
Just Some Fuckhead
Your move, Notmax.
tallpete
@Just Some Fuckhead: spot on
Jade
Don’t be too sure she can hold on to the black vote. My entire extended family supports Bernie. All they had to do was pay attention to his lifetime body of work. His honesty, lack of greed, lack of selling out, no poll driven positions.
Ben Jealous and Killer Mike are no flukes. As he campaigns in other states he will pull more of the minority vote.
Trentrunner
@Goblue72: You seem nice. Also, get your fucking demographic cohort out to vote at the rates that boomers do, and then we’ll chat. Otherwise, back to your video games and your hippity-hop.
J R in WV
@gene108:
I can tell the world what is wrong with the US health system right now. I have a foot fungus. I have had it off and on since I was in the Navy, so I suspect it originated in SE Asia.
I use a prescription anti-fungal cream to beat it back. I learned just a couple of weeks ago that a 60 gram tube of the stuff, which I cover both feet with daily, costs list at $400. Someone is stealing BIG money here when fungus cream costs thousands of dollars to treat a fungal infection.
If we fix the Big Pharma industry, health care will, as if by magic, not cost the same as a moon shot. That guy who raised the price of a generic cheap-to-produce drug 4000 %, he should be cured of his arrogance. I am willing to accept whatever it takes to teach him humility.
Whatever it takes. Really, if you took his money and connections away, trying to put him living under a bridge, he would just beat and steal from those weaker than he is. Maybe 30 or 40 years in a super-max prison, for multiple attempted murder charges of all those patients he tried to steal from? Consecutive sentences necessary.
Brachiator
Oh hell, yes! FDR is much like FDR here. It is amazing, all the more so given the sad, pointless hatred and fear that the GOP has tried to gin up against Obama.
I think that there is a generation of men and women who would love to see Clinton as the first woman president. But there are others who don’t see anything specific about her that makes her “inevitable.” Oddly, younger women don’t seem to be as warm towards her as older women (and men).
I think that aspects of Clinton’s deep experience is debatable, but I think that she has done better as Secretary of State than some give her credit for. And here she has (for me) demonstrated not just an ability to work hard, but an ability to master the job and to build important relationships with foreign leaders.
I think that we have had six individuals who served as Secretary of State before becoming president, so this used to be seen as a premium path to the presidency. Clinton has done as well here as many of her predecessors.
But a big question is, what is her vision for the country? What does she offer in addition to a promise to work hard and to be a continuation of the Bill Clinton or Obama presidency?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Trentrunner: I think he’s comfortably into middle age, he just throws millennial into every post because his keyboard radicalism makes him young at heart.
Kropadope
@Goblue72:
Dude, this type of shit is majorly unhelpful.
Baud
@Jade: If so, it will be a short primary.
Another Holocene Human
@bin Lurkin’:
I don’t own a big screen home theater and neither, I suspect, do the majority of Clinton’s voters. You can’t afford to make impractical losing stands when you’re living six inches above the poverty line.
Eric U.
being too limited in what you say you want to do because it’s not practical probably costs democrats some votes. Adding in that the REpublicans in congress will vote it down probably is a good idea too. Both to temper expectations, and as an attack on the republicans
Archon
@Jade:
If Sanders cast Cornel West out of his campaign some of these endorsements from black leaders might help.
Another Holocene Human
@Bartholomew:
Are you serious? This is straight up conspiracy theory, and about as fact-free as you can get. The economy got smashed up by greed, recklessness, and an absent regulator (in the US and abroad as well). And many ordinary people did their part to help the banks do it by buying houses they couldn’t afford or using their home as a credit card. Everyone was doing it….
DoJ already tried to try some banksters and the jury wouldn’t convict. I guess they should have been tried by a citizens’ grand jury of Occupiers. Many of the banks ate major karma and don’t exist any more. Some countries handled things worse than we did (true facts) and suffered years of severe recession and unemployment.
Suzanne
I am not sure why some here are so eager to dismiss pragmatism, knowledge of and experience with process, and basic competence at one’s job from the list of Most Important Qualities for a potential President. We are the reality-based community, let’s not forget.
Applejinx
@Bartholomew:
This this this… except what do you mean ‘new’? The problem is, that’s what we have, backed by outrageously leveraged financial instruments. If it was just a bunch of banksters plotting madness, our politicians would have put the kibosh on that stuff.
They GOT their madness, and now they’re financial suicide bombers. If we don’t let them keep their ever-increasing hyper-rich bonuses and let them play and pretend they rule the goddamn world, they will push the button and collectively refuse to believe their own fantasy, and all but about ten percent of the world’s wealth goes poof because it was a confidence scheme all along.
Establishment politicians go along with this because (a) they’re paid, and (b) because they’re smart enough to do the math and think, ‘hey wait, this IS a con game. These banks have less than a thirtieth of what they need if it gets called into question. Better not let that happen on my watch, or I’ll be blamed for it!’
The trouble is, it WILL fail because it’s an enormous con. That’s why I want a President who may or may not get blamed for what he’s been bitching about this whole time, but who will not be blackmailed.
In order to keep the house of cards going you have to collaborate with the con game and side against the populace. I don’t want Hillary saying ‘I want everyone to love me!’ and filling her family and her cabinet with Goldman Sachs and then collaborating with their larger crimes. Finding and jailing scapegoats for the most obvious stuff is not going to be enough. The whole system is completely fucked and needs a wake-up call, and needs tumbrels way more than Washington does, Tea Party included.
Baud
@Suzanne: Those people may be Baud! supporters, bless their hearts.
Kropadope
@Suzanne: Who’s doing that?
debbie
I agree with this. Aspirations matter. It’s Hillary’s insistence that she will be the one to get it done that is driving me up the wall. I wish someone would ask her this question: “Should the GOP be plotting yet another 8 years of total obstruction even as you’re reciting the Oath of Office, what exactly is it you will do to ‘get it done’?”
Kay
@Baud:
I’m listening to a Clinton NH speech right now. “knock down barriers to opportunity”. This is the Democrats’ 2014 campaign. “We in attendance at this rally will knock down the barriers to opportunity that are holding…all those other people back”
Amir Khalid
@Suzanne:
Indeed, I would have thought pragmatism, knowledge of and experience with process, and basic competence the most important things to consider, once a candidate’s policy proposals were evaluated and found near enough acceptable.
debbie
@Kay:
But it does protect delicate egos, no?
Baud
@Kay: Ok, fine. I’ve read your criticism of the opportunity message. But if that’s not good enough, then the party will go with Sanders, who the young people love. What’s the issue here?
Brachiator
@Amir Khalid:
You can’t really coach this, just as you cannot magically endow a person with someone else’s charisma.
Oddly enough, Hillary Clinton does seem to be able to inspire loyalty in the people who work with her. But to some people she comes across as mechanical and calculating. Maybe part of this is because watching a politician (Bill, Obama) is not the same thing as actually working as a politician.
Sanders doesn’t seem to have patience for a lot of the baby kissing and glad handing part of political campaigning but still comes across as friendly and approachable. But both Clinton and Sanders have their own style, and they just have to make it work. I suspect that Clinton would do better by ignoring the “wisdom” of some of her handlers.
Kay
@Baud:
I think Bernie is hugely flawed too. I wish we had a western state governor.
Colorado, ideally :)
Baud
@Kay: This doesn’t seem to be the year for governors, oddly enough.
Prior to Obama, it was rare for a senator to move up to president. Now there is a decent chance the two nominees will be senators or former senators.
p.a.
@Jade: For many reasons I wish Steve Gilliard were still around, but I would love to be able to hear his take on the Dem primary race.
Brachiator
@debbie:
That’s a good question, but one that any Democrat who wins will have to ask.
And we don’t know whether the GOP in the Congress will get even crazier than they were during the Obama Administration. The Democrats will have to come up with a strategy, though they don’t have to show their hand early.
And there will be compromise, even if only small ones. Voters will not stand for a total shut down.
So, part of the question becomes, who do you believe will best be able to craft whatever compromises will need to be done. And who will be able to perhaps help the party in the mid term elections.
Another Holocene Human
@debbie: Wouldn’t that be true of any Democrat?
p.a.
@Baud: How do you react to the claim that you are in the pocket of Big Bloga? J’accuse!
Fair Economist
@Another Holocene Human:
I think a strong campaign by Bernie which *doesn’t* win the nomination will move the Overton Window much farther. “Single payer health care” and “break up the banks” sound good, but if they’re actually in the platform they’ll get a lot of attacks, and they’ll suffer, because the details are weak. If he actually gets elected, they’ll be a backlash, because they’re not going to get done – just like with Hillarycare.
The most important thing for moving the window, though, is to get a Democratic administration elected that can get as much as possible done. The Overton window is powerfully influenced by current policy, whatever it is.
Davis X. Machina
@Amir Khalid:
Nope. The most important thing to consider is “What does this choice say about me? How will it be received by people I know and spend time with and around?”
Elections, especially primary elections, are at least as much social signalling, via choice between largely identical consumer products on offer, by the voter, as they are calculated, rational choices of potential policymakers.
It’s tribes all the way down, even for the good guys.
Kay
@Baud:
I don’t think that’s healthy. One of the things I liked about Obama was he was a state legislator. It’s not the “executive” part I’m after, it’s the state/federal interaction because that’s hugely important in my “ideal” good-government scheme :)
I feel the same way about the Supreme Court. I don’t think they all should all come from the same track.
Baud
@p.a.: I categorically reject that vicious smear. I wouldn’t be caught dead on a blog (that anybody reads).
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
We shouldn’t forget that HRC won two state-wide elections in New York. Sure, it’s got a huge city, but it’s also got lots of areas that are as conservative as down-state Alabama. She knows how to win elections that have widely distributed voter types – she won’t win all the upstate NY votes, but she’ll win enough to do the job.
I agree with Baud! that she doesn’t need to run to Bernie’s left – she simply has to have good counters to his arguments and positioning. AFAICS, she’s doing that.
My wife J is a huge Bernie fan and has a visceral hatred of Hillary and Bill. I don’t understand it, myself , but she can rattle off talking points against them (from the left) just as well as any Rush listener can from the right. :-/ It’ll be interesting to see how she comes to grip with Bernie losing the nomination (as I assume he will).
We’ll see what happens.
(Now to read all the other comments…)
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@Kay: I’m not in disagreement. But that would have been O’Malley in this race, and that didn’t work out so well.
For whatever reason, Dems — whether Establishment or liberal activists — have a tough time taking the states seriously. It may be that we tend to want national solutions to problems, or because it is only on a national scale that we can organize effectively. Either way, it’s a problem given how our elections and governments are structured.
FWIW, I admit to having a lot less interest in state politics than national and international politics.
Jade
@Archon: Except for the Obots we love Cornel West. Even some of the Obots appreciate his intelligence and fearlessness. No need to cast him out. We are a big tent race (except for our universal hatred of Clarence Thomas).
p.a.
@Baud: John Cole: kingmaker. The man behind the throne. Naked, with a mop.
Kropadope
@Jade: C’mon, don’t you know you’re not serious about the party unless you’re willing to exile people who disagree with you on some things?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@p.a.: When you play the game of mops, you clean, or you die.
Sometimes you break your collarbone
debbie
@Brachiator:
I have seen nothing that tells me they will be less crazier.
@Another Holocene Human:
Yes, but not as much as if Hillary gets in the White House. What bothers me is her insinuation that no one else could get done what needs to get done. I think she’s the least likely, not because she doesn’t want to, but because the opposition, with their 25 years of hatred of all things Clinton, won’t let her.
Kay
@Baud:
This is mean but it made me laugh.
I read someone describe O’Malley as “Lifetime TV husband Martin O’Malley” If you have ever watched Lifetime TV you know that;s spot on.
bin Lurkin'
Ooops… “ young women back Bernie Sanders because ‘the boys are with Bernie’
Another Holocene Human
@debbie: I caught that part of the last debate and I think she was clearly stating she was more capable than Bernie of working with the legislature. I think Bernie took it that way because he hammered on about his Senate record and how much his coworkers love him.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@J R in WV: Not that you asked, but try beating it back with tea tree oil, which has powerful anti-fungal properties. It’s also an essential oil which can be safely applied to skin neat, so you won’t need to add a carrier oil for dilution. Also it’s much cheaper than USD 400/tube.
You’re right about the pharma stuff, and I’d pay to see Pharma Bro smirk his way thru a gang of unamused prisoners who pants him several times a day. By which I do not mean sexual assault. But I’d rejoice in having him mocked by men who would laugh at his eyerolls and short sheet his bed while stealing all his stuff. And then ignore him – which might be the hardest part for him.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@gene108:
Andrew Cuomo?
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Kropadope
@bin Lurkin’: Wow, I didn’t know Gloria Steinem was such a misogynist.
Another Holocene Human
@bin Lurkin’: What a great brand ambassador you are! If I were a young woman for Bernie I would find that as condescending as fuck. What, young women are so addled by estrogen (lol, maybe once a month, not that you’d know she’s secretly in horrible pain and sitting in disgusting squidge while trying to write her exams) they can’t make political decisions for themselves?
Bernie is promising FREE KOLLIDGE and what young person these days wouldn’t jump on that bandwagon? Hell, I’ve been for that for years, I’m just not naive enough to think Sanders can say it and it will be done. So many fucking things would have to change. Btw, Congress, MOAR LONES is not FREE KALEGGE.
bin Lurkin'
@Kropadope: Misogyny crops up in the strangest of places.
Joel
@Bartholomew: “What may be the game-changer is that the Democratic Party seems to have reached a kind of ultimate endgame of contempt for its supporters, by forcing voters to accept the single ‘viable’ candidate. It is amazing really.”
Um, really? Do you remember 2004?
muddy
@Kropadope: It was kind of bizarre. Perhaps she was thrown off by Maher snatching at her clothing. I couldn’t believe he did that.
Kropadope
@Another Holocene Human:
bin Lurkin’ didn’t make it clear, but that claim came from Gloria Steinem.
Kropadope
@Joel:
And how did that go for the Democrats?
Another Holocene Human
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Having just gone through fungal hell myself, I kind of wish people would stop proffering home remedies. Don’t you think we’ve tried that already?
Thank GOODNESS for prescription anti-fungal ointment. That the price of pharmaceuticals bears little relation to the cost it takes to fabricate them is a political problem.
Another Holocene Human
@Kropadope: My bad. I scrolled over the URL and it had a different title so I figured that was the point bin Lurkin was intending to draw out.
Kropadope
@Another Holocene Human: Well, that’s why I like Bernie’s idea that Medicare should be able to negotiate drug prices and that we should be able to import drugs. These are two small, achievable ideas that might help reduce drug costs in the U.S. “Single-payer” isn’t his entire healthcare pitch after all.
Joel
@Kropadope: Yeah, no shit. I was challenging the validity of the “end game” assertion. The “party decides” is as old as the parties themselves. For the record, I don’t think Dean would have done better, even though in the early game, I supported him.
Brachiator
@debbie:
Some new Congressional leadership and obvious citizen impatience with the same old BS.
But as I noted, this is going to be a challenge for whoever is elected president. It might also be an impediment to a president … Trump.
bin Lurkin'
@Another Holocene Human: So is it still “condescending as fuck” when Gloria Steinem says it?
Zinsky
@Brachiator: As I have posted before – if a Democrat wins the White House and Congress remains in GOP clutches, 2016-2020 will be a caretaker presidency. The only goal will be to keep the barbarians away from the gates and to veto everything the wretched right-wing vermin throw up, which will be at least one “repeal Obamacare” vote per week. The other mission will be to appoint at least moderate justices to the Supreme Court, of which there may be several openings, due to their advanced ages. 2020 will be the critical election, because then we can maybe redraw the congressional district lines and break the gerrymandering that has put the Dems at such a disadvantage!
Germy
@Kropadope:
That somewhat worries me. Do the exporting countries have the same oversight over quality and purity that we’re supposed to have? I’ve read stories about medicines and vitamins coming from other countries that, upon analysis, either didn’t contain what they were supposed to, or contained toxins.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@chopper:
Bernie is the smoke-belching biodiesel Volvo with all the bumper stickers with peace signs, coexist, and “no war but class war” prominently displayed. It’s in front of you in heavy traffic, the biodiesel is barely synced up, and he stalled out through five cycles of the traffic light as you’re trying to get to the school play where your 5 year old daughter has a lead role.
Iowa Old Lady
@Joel: Don’t we always pick a single candidate, preferably the one we think can win? I don’t see that as contemptuous.
I say again I’d happily vote for either Clinton or Sanders. We have a while for our choice to clarify.
J R in WV
Betty,
Something I don’t understand about your Post, you mention “about the “S” word”… and I have strained my wits without coming up with a politically loaded concept that might be called “the S word.”
Just sex? is that still loaded? Social security is 2 S’s…
Help me out? Please? with a cherry?!
Iowa Old Lady
@Zinsky: Exactly, and keeping the barbarians at bay is a vital task.
bin Lurkin'
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: And yet all the kids want to ride in the smoke belching Volvo.
At least it’s just the boys, according to Gloria Steinem all the young women are idiots who only want to be liked by the Berniebros.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@J R in WV: Democratic Socialmalism.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kropadope
@Germy: Well, obviously we import from countries with comparable standards and give the FDA oversight.
The big issue with the vitamins, minerals, and herbal supplements not working or not containing what they claimed is the fact that the FDA only has regulatory power over the food and drugs. Since these supplements are neither; their manufacturers, some of which are in fact in the US, can make whatever claims they want about what they contain and the effects they will have.
Ruckus
@chopper:
still better than jeb, a 1972 orange hatchback with bald tires and a brown door
Whata ya talking about, that was a fine looking AMC Pacer (a 75 BTW).
If you didn’t mind the fan belt squeal, the cloud of blue smoke and best of all, the look of pride on the drivers face.
Renie
@bin Lurkin’: heard about this; dumb thing to say. asked my 21 year old Bernie supporter daughter what she thought of what Gloria Steinman said and her response was “who is she?”. told her the statement and she made an obscene gesture lol
Just One More Canuck
@Frankensteinbeck: It seems to me that Quinnipiac is producing a lot of anomalous results of late
Kropadope
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Two can play this game:
The Clinton campaign is that sneering middle-management lifer who works hard, sure, but will never advance they lack respect and don’t take responsibility for their own problems.
J R in WV
@Kay:
Don’t forget, Hillary was First Lady of Arkansas before she was First Lady in DC, so I suspect she will understand state – federal relationships at least as well as President Obama did when he first ran for national office.
I have to admit, I’m going to work for Hillary, not that the WV primary will matter much. I expect she’ll do very well w/o my help in WV. I will work for her in the general election. I’ve already contributed all I can afford for the primary, and will probably kick in a little more for the general. Most of my financial help will go to senatorial races.
Dog help us if the R’s win big this year!
mike in dc
I am becoming more comfortable with the idea of Clinton as the nominee as I see her lately. However, still voting for Bernie in the MD primary. I think the tightening of the polls is in part due to the fact that these two are fairly evenly matched, politically speaking. Bernie held his own in a head to head debate with Hillary. He has weaknesses on foreign policy. She has weaknesses on corporate reform. But they are both vastly superior to whatever emerges from the fever swamp that is the GOP race.
Germy
@Kropadope:
I thought the FDA has suffered from budget cuts to the point where they don’t have the resources to oversee what we put into our bodies. First thing would be to increase their funding and increase their personnel.
Joel
@Kropadope: The drug importing thing is basically a loophole that small states (like Vermont!) can use by piggybacking on another country’s national, negotiated rates. There is no way that this can work on a national level. The suppliers are the same for expensive (patent) drugs.
Brachiator
@Zinsky:
Not necessarily true. If I were elected (and yeah, not a chance in hell), this is what I would do: Have an aggressive agenda for tax reform, and expansion of Obamacare; present every freaking judicial and cabinet and executive appointee and demand a fast vote. I would hammer obstructionism with “here’s my agenda, where’s yours.” And obviously veto GOP stupidity.
And every freaking weekly presidential address would be pitched to the voters, “this is why we need you to vote Democrats into Congress in the mid term elections.”
And I would work the shit out of executive orders and dare the mofos to impeach me.
Also, you have to look for sane Republicans behind the scenes and look for compromises.
Because this is how shit works. A tax plan was passed in December and signed by the president. This plan had bipartisan support and the outline was approved by both parties in June. Then it was put in a drawer and everyone pretended to hate each other. But the shit got done. Because it had to get done.
The thing is that the Tea Party nutjobs, including Ted Cruz, hates even this nod to reality and wants to pull a Malheur Standoff over everything.
Anyway, you look to the first opportunity in the mid terms, and a second chance in 2020.
Amir Khalid
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
@Kropadope:
This is just the sort of name-calling and sticking out of tongues that ends up in hurt feelings and long-lasting grudges. I want you two to kiss and make up right now.
gwangung
@mike in dc: Yes. Seriously.
I lean towards Clinton because her team as a whole strikes me as more pragmatic. That factor (which strikes others as accommodationist) pushes others away. C’est la vie. Compete hard and let’s see who gets the most delegates.
Brachiator
@bin Lurkin’:
Wow, what a dumbass put down of women. And by a woman who is, if anything, the chief feminist emeritus.
As I noted elsewhere, my mother has always been radical. She is, she says, tired of Hillary. My college age niece is not just chasing boys, and also has no great love for Hillary. My sister, flush with power and authority in a kick ass job at this point in her life, is a Hillary supporter.
Steinem, in this, is a fool. Maybe she was trying to kiss up to Bill Maher.
bin Lurkin'
Twitter is having a little fun with it…
Kropadope
@Amir Khalid: To hell with you, you’re one of the condescending people I had in mind when I put that together. Clinton, her campaign, and many of her online supporters have this smug certainty that any Democrat or Democratic-leaning-independent not supporting her candidacy are being unrealistic or don’t understand how our government works or are buying into right-wing propaganda or pretty much anything other than “they prefer a different candidate because they prefer that candidate’s policies and/or record.” This narrative is being pushed aggressively and dishonestly.
Frankly, I’m tired of being talked down to like a two-year-old and tarred with the actions of supposed Bernie supporters somewhere else that I just have to take the word of the person providing the anecdote. All this feeds into my main concern with the Clinton campaign, that she will negatively impact the culture of the party, that facts won’t any more, and that the left will form it’s own bubble against hostile information.
Despite all that, I’d still probably wind up voting for her, but I look at that the same way I’d look at an emergency amputation of my arm to stop a growing infection while I simultaneously have no guaranteed way of stopping the bleeding once I’ve done that. But those among you who want to misrepresent and condescend to the people who disagree with you about the better choice in the primary need to get a fucking clue.
Kropadope
@Brachiator:
This is probably my favorite part. Nowhere, except maybe in Hollywood, does someone become less powerful or influential because they age.
bin Lurkin'
@Renie:
The level of partisanship is headed off the charts and the generational divide is going right with it.
May I be the first to wish the Democratic party bon voyage into the rest of the twenty first century with the SS Hillary R Clinton, feel the Rodhamentum.
How do you do fellow kids?
mike in dc
Generational divide?
GenXer makes sweeping hand gesture at Boomers and Millenials
Fuck all y’all. ;p
bin Lurkin'
@Brachiator:
I’m seeing that level of spaghetti rhetoric all over, throw something just to see if it sticks.
Even Maher looked shocked she said it, I don’t think he was her target and honestly I don’t think he views women that dismissively.
p.a.
@mike in dc:
No wonder I’m conflicted: old but immature. I got it all baby!
Robert Sneddon
@Zinsky: Congress has veto override powers so unless a putative Democratic President has “coat-tails” and at least manages to keep the status quo in terms of Senate seats then they may not be able to successfully veto stuff.
They also get to appoint Supremes as well as a whole load of other positions such as ambassadors, lower-court justices and the like but only after Congress has approved them. See “coat-tails” above. It’s entirely possible vacancies on the Supreme Court would go unfilled as long as the President was putting forward candidates the majority party didn’t like, maybe even into the next election in 2020.
Brachiator
@bin Lurkin’:
I was semi-joking that Steinem said this because she was trying to impress the boys, in this instance, Maher. Turning her jibe back onto her.
But maybe Steinem was just being over-exuberant in her defense of Hillary. Reminds me of the PUMA rage back in 2008. And I agree that Maher does not view women that dismissively.
Suzanne
A cult of personality has been growing around Bernie, and I don’t like it. I like him, very much. He’s a mensch. Most of my policy positions align with his, though of course that doesn’t mean jack shit unless the Senate and House are filled with others of like mind. But FUCK. He, and HRC, are just people, just a vehicle for a set of ideas. We’re not awarding a prize to anyone here, we’re strategizing about how to gain ground. He hasn’t earned the presidency on account of his ideological purity or speeches she gave or fees she accepted. I am increasingly leaning toward HRC because I don’t see the plausibility of change happening should Bernie get the nomination in this country, this year, with this group of jackals we call “society”. But DAMN am I sick of the infighting. Reality is going to kick us in the junk if we don’t suck it up and make it happen.
Brachiator
@Robert Sneddon:
Fortunately, it’s not a simple majority for a veto. If the Republican Congress wants to Andrew Johnson a Democratic president, they can give it a shot and see how it works for them.
I can’t see an even semi-rational Congress doing this if there were more than one Supreme Court vacancy.
Also, it’s not just the Supremes. The newly elected president needs to be able to get lower level judicial appointments approved.
J R in WV
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Thanks for the advice!
I had heard your suggestion before, from the Mayo Clinic web site actually. So I think I will try that as soon as I can round up a bottle of the proper oil.
Kay
@J R in WV:
The least persuasive part of Clinton’s candidacy to me is First Lady, of either Arkansas or the US. First Ladies have a tiny bit of power and zero accountability, and that seems about right to me for the spouse of an elected person.
I would be fine with a spouse who said “fuck off, I don’t like voters and I don’t work for any of you” :)
bin Lurkin'
@Suzanne: Then you had best face the reality that Hillary for whatever reason is going to lose most of the under 45 would-be Democrats.
My place is thick with grandkids and cousins and friends and whatnot on a regular basis, the ones who care about politics are feeling the Bern, the rest are decidedly meh.
If Hillary had voted against the IWR 2004 would have been her shining moment, by election Iraq was clearly a quagmire and Chimpy was obviously in over his head… A strong foresightful speech against Iraq in the Senate to run on and Dubya would have been gone.
I bet she has kicked herself a billion times for that idiotic vote, she fucked up she trusted the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to be competent at anything beyond feathering their own nest.
J R in WV
@Germy:
Actually, that happens with good old Amurican-made drugs, supplements, compounded medications, etc. The AG of NY state tested many dietary supplements, and his scientific team found that many of them were not what the label said. Some contained other herbs and chemicals, some were just things like lawn grass or something like that.
Indictments were handed up, IIRC.
I think Canada, the EU, and other advancing countries do at least as well as we do in general.
Kay
@J R in WV:
I AM interested in the First Gentleman thing, though, I have to admit. I got a weird kick out of it every I heard Granholm (in MI) husband referred to as the First Gentleman on the radio. Not often enough! I was wishing they would find excuses to say it.
randy khan
@Kay:
I’m not persuaded by the “She was First Lady of Arkansas” bit on its own, but she actually did have a significant policy role in her husband’s administration, and was responsible in large part for getting education reform through in Arkansas. I’d say that gives her more bona fides on the state level than a lot of candidates who got their experience nearly exclusively in federal office.
The Coyote
@Goblue72: OMG that lame old “much” schtick again. I’d almost rather watch another Republican debate.
J R in WV
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
DUH! Thanks for informing me!
Should have known, guessed. Maybe because it doesn’t scare me so much?
We visited Spain and France briefly a while ago, and thought that for socialist hell holes they were actually very nice. If Trump wins, perhaps we can claim asylum in southern France? Of course, I would have to learn French, if possible…
NobodySpecial
I think whoever wins will benefit greatly from Obama at their back, campaigning for them.
Emma
@Suzanne: This. Very much this. “Marrying” a politician is the stupidest thing a voter can do. Even this self-annointed Obot has had moments of wishing I could shake him and bellow “what the hell do you think you’re doing” to his face. I will ever find a politician whose philosophy agrees 100% with mine.
For me, this election comes down to this: I don’t care who the Democratic candidate finally turns out to be, I will crawl up and down every hill in San Francisco wearing broken glass knee pads to vote for him/her. Otherwise we’ll have a generation of such destructive government that the United States might never recover. Either Hillary or Bernie will be fine. President Kwisatz Haderach Cruz not so much.
muddy
@bin Lurkin’:
The whole thing was weird. Right at the beginning (0:22), he grabs her scarf and tosses it to the side so that he can touch her belt. Who does that? I’m trying to imagine him flipping a man’s tie aside in order to tap his belt buckle. While the person has their arm raised and is facing the other way. So creepy. And dismissive, as she had arranged the scarf the way she wanted it to be when she sat down. But then she seemed to respond to it in a flattered way and that was creepy too.
She did seem a little taken aback that he wanted to make it about Islam, she must not be familiar with him?
The Coyote
@Renie: She’s going to love the Cruz Administration.
Kay
@randy khan:
I don’t agree with that, though, as far as process. I don’t think it’s her role to “get policy thru”. I know I’m rigid on this but I would also object to Laura Bush or Michelle Obama doing that- neither of them saw themselves in that role and I appreciate that. The problem to me is if there’s a mismatch between power and accountability. I don’t think either of those things should come thru another person. If she can’t be held accountable for Arkansas education reforms she shouldn’t be “getting them thru” and if she isn’t actually responsible for them she shouldn’t be taking credit. She really can’t win this one with me :)
It’s water under the bridge and probably no one else cares about my “good government” rigidity, but public school policy put in by people who aren’t elected is a particular sore spot with me.
FlipYrWhig
@Suzanne: I’m honestly starting to feel the opposite. I’m starting to feel like Bernie Sanders, the human being, is an asshole, while Bernie Sanders, the political candidate, has a handful of good ideas — in an exceptionally narrow space. His default mode is cranky, impatient, and accusatory. I’m getting this feeling that if he was a friend of a friend we’d be at the same party and I’d say I didn’t know him and my friends would say, “Oh, you have to meet him, he’s great,” and I meet him and he looks bored and doesn’t listen and goes back to talking to the other people he already knew.
C.V. Danes
Personally, I would settle for a ‘third Obama term’ but I distinctly remember wishing that Obama would side with the people for once instead of siding with the banks, BP, etc. He’s gotten better, but mostly because he’s got nothing to lose at this point.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
OT: it’s like he’s baiting the whole internet:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“for once”
Good christ you’re an asshole
Suzanne
@bin Lurkin’: I am a well-under-45 Democrat, and I know lots of other under-45 Democrats, and some are Feeling the Bern and some are Ready for Hillary. I think Bernie appeals more to those who haven’t been disappointed a lot yet, who don’t realize how impossible change will be if Congress doesn’t change, too. My friends in my age cohort who have been politically active the longest are all pro-Hillz. No one is right or wrong, but I’m fucking sick of the Berniebots who view the Hillary contingent as traitorous. This is a fucking team sport, y’all. We need both dreamers and doers to make the society we want. If I hear any more blah blah about how the youth won’t turn out if they aren’t inspired (aka, we don’t nominate Bernie), then they don’t fucking deserve to have their interests represented.
Brachiator
@bin Lurkin’:
What, they’re not gonna vote if Bernie is not the candidate?
Then I guess they had better a) learn to pray if they are not religious and then b) pray that Clinton or Trump is elected president.
The under 45 is a fertile bunch, in general. If Cruz or Rubio is elected, they had best learn abstinence, because I would be willing to bet that soon after their election, not only abortion but contraception will become illegal. And of course, college kids don’t have sex.
And don’t get sick. Cause health insurance will go away for many.
And that’s just for starters.
J R in WV
@Kay:
With no authority, Hillary managed to have some effect on the administration, beyond just talking to Bill behind the scenes. Plus, even without control, she was able to witness what worked and what did not work, both in Washington and in Arkansas, which is more what I was talking about.
The experience of being there as decisions were discussed, as people with official roles were swayed one way or the other, this is really valuable to a new office holder. She won’t be entering the Oval Office for the very first time, she will have been there once before, even if just a very interested bystander.
And Bill will be there too. Which scares the Republicans so much it make me want it even more, anything to upset Mitch “Turtle” McConnell and his minions.
Do you think they will be so bold on in public about wanting Hillary to be a one term president after how well that goal worked out with President Obama?
I have no doubt it will be a primary goal, but I would bet a thousand dollars they won’t talk about it in public like they did in 2008/2009. And impeach her before she takes office?
Really?!!
Just Nope. Not how it works, dumb-asses!
Suzanne
@FlipYrWhig: He’s an old curmudgeon, and I like old curmudgeons, because I am one in the making.
Chyron HR
@bin Lurkin’:
And yet some silly people still don’t take Sanders’ campaign seriously.
Kay
@J R in WV:
OMG! I’m outraged already! :)
I kept an eye on Karen Kasich. She can copy Michelle Obama’s Let’s Move (which she did-blatantly ripped it off) but I would have been marching on Columbus if Kasich’s spouse had put a testing scheme into public schools.
I’m probably voting for Clinton in the primary because Bernie Sanders doesn’t know jack shit about foreign policy and doesn’t even seem remotely interested in the rest of the world, but it will be while I am OPPOSED to activist First Spouse-ism :)
J R in WV
@Kay:
When was the last time a Superintendent of Schools was elected? At any level?
They get hired by boards of education OR appointed by a Governor at the state level, don’t they? Here we elect county boards of education, in theory they are non-partisan, but I’m sure in most places that’s a weak theory. But the state board and superintendent are appointed by the Gov.
ETA: Didn’t mean to push any buttons, but I always thought having an effect on issues of the day outside legal authority indicates a strong personality making good and convincing points about those issues to those with that authority. What’s wrong with that, after all?
bin Lurkin'
Hillary is gonna have to nuke da yute vote to win, does anyone here think she won’t try to do that?
Sanders is doing the Democrats a favor by running as a Democrat and they hate, hate, hate him for it.
Gloria freaking Steinem unloads some amazingly patronizing sexist garbage on young female Bernie supporters and we all know why. In support of Hillary, talk about a cult of personality, that’s some wicked powerful shit there.
FlipYrWhig
@Suzanne: I’m a burgeoning curmudgeon too. It sort of bothers me, though, that Hillary Clinton has been dinged for her whole political life for being lacking in warmth, and then here comes Bernie Sanders, who has absolutely zero warmth (passion, yes, but warmth, no), and nobody holds that against him at all — it just morphs into a different compliment, “authenticity.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m curious: where do you live?
Luigidaman
I think that Hillary gives us Dems THE ONLY CHANCE to win the Presidency. Sanders not only Mr. Hopey Changey, Part 2, he is a socialist and a Jew. I know these are horrible racist words, but that is the way it is in middle America where I live.
Robert Sneddon
@Brachiator: You presume that the Democratic Senators would vote lock-step against an Independent President’s veto of a majority Republican bill to prevent that veto being overridden.
Bernie may have voted and caucused with the Democrats and he has many friends in the Senate, but he’s never been their colleague and he’s never worked to help them get elected. How many Democratic Senators have come out in support of their friend Bernie as opposed to Hillary? How many will cast their nominating superdelegate votes for him against her? How many would go along with the veto override to maintain their collegiate responsibilities to the Senate (which Bernie would no longer be part of)?
As for a “semi-rational” Congress unless the Democratic coat-tail effect is present in large quantities then it is possible the Republicans might get an absolute 2/3 veto-proof majority in the Senate; at the very least they would get the 60 votes needed for cloture on everything they and the House agree on.
Major administrative posts are not being fulfilled at the moment, judicial appointments and ambassadorial roles because they were proposed by President Obama. Some of these have been hanging for months. A stronger Republican congress dealing with appointments from an isolated Democratic President would feel themselves even more able to delay and obfuscate such choices even until the next election if they so wished. There is no-one in the higher echelons of the Congrssional GOP like Orrin Hatch any more, the man who shepherded President Clinton’s two Supreme Court choices through the sausage-making machine.
Kay
@J R in WV:
Right, but that’s an appointment. I don’t need direct democracy at every level and position. I just need the lines of power and accountability to intersect.
jl
Thanks for your very excellent portrait art, BC. Except both of them look too sweet and nice. Probably need to call in one of your chickens to model some cranky you could add into the mix.
WereBear
I utterly agree. Pretending to be Republican Lite (with a bit more compassion!) does not ever work. Maniacs want the genuine article, and Democrats get exasperated and disillusioned.
There’s another thing I want to give Bernie credit for, and that is firing up young people and also the apathetic voter. If Hillary wants to keep this mobilized new bunch of potential Democrats, she needs to address their concerns.
rb
@Suzanne:
Truth. But even moreso: when you get right down to it, “deserve” doesn’t even matter. If the ‘youth vote’ is not successful in pushing Bernie over the top and then stays home for the general, then they WON’T have their interests represented, deserve it or not.
Players play, and whiners whine into their beer about how they been sold out.
Brachiator
@FlipYrWhig:
Bernie is not a glad-hander, but this is not the same thing as zero warmth. He comes across as cuddly. By contrast, the UK Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, also a long time socialist, is noted as having zero warmth.
I noted earlier that my college age niece says that Bernie is funny and charming because he is like “your crazy substitute teacher.”
Bill Clinton has been called a charming rogue, but both he and Hillary have been accused of being calculating. And Hillary does not always come across as authentic. I was listening to a recap of the last town hall and debate, and a commentator (granted not a fan) noted that to him Hillary would often mechanically give a little laugh or chuckle before she answered an uncomfortable question, and would often not answer a challenge directly about her money making speeches, but fall back on a stock response.
Bernie comes across as less calculating. Obviously, some of this is perception, but I don’t think it is just Bernie getting a pass and people being unfair to Clinton. I have worked with people who do not come across as warm and trustworthy who have hearts of gold, and a former boss who seemed kindly, but who was an absolute weasel.
Kay (not the front-pager)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s the radio setup I had in the 1960 rambler that was my first car! My dad sold me that car for $25 and at that price he ripped me off.
Suzanne
@FlipYrWhig: I hate it, too. The “warmth” criticism really pisses me off, because I’ve been on the receiving end of it, too. I got an employee review once that consisted of “You’re really smart, you’re great at your job, your clients love you…..but some of the junior staff think you’re mean.” When I asked for an example, the incident that was cited was a time when I dropped my pen when an intern didn’t get their shit done, (yes, it was described as me “throwing my pen down in anger”) and another time when I told an intern that she had to do what the client wanted, even though she didn’t like the way that looked. It’s fucking bullshit, how we’re supposed to be cuddly and friendly and likeable ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
I actually see much of myself in HRC, personality-wise. I am not the warmest person on earth, I have a sense of humor that has been described as “dry” and “sarcastic”, and I am an overachieving nerd. The amount of shit she gets for not being adequately inspirational enrages me. I am an architect. My job is to listen to a client’s needs, come up with an idea for a built environment that at least meets their needs, and hopefully exceeds them…..and then I have to actually figure that shit out and help build something that will stand up through rainstorms and windstorms and being pissed on and puked on. In other words, there is a place for the big idea. But it is meaningless without the ability to deliver, on time, within budget, within the bounds of codes and regulations and logistics and building technologies.
HRC is delivery-minded. I am delivery-minded. What is not inspirational about actualizing?! What is not inspirational about seeing an idea become real? She knows how hard that is, and she focuses her energies accordingly. I’m sorry if that isn’t “warm” or “inspirational”.
James E Powell
@J R in WV:
I was there, too. And working as a volunteer for the Gore campaign. And devouring every night’s news. And listening to the narratives about Gore being peddled, repeated, and absorbed. His “distancing” from Clinton is one of them.
If you were there and paying attention, you should recall that every paragraph that began with Clinton included Lewinsky. Gore defended Clinton right after he was impeached by declaring that history would vindicate him – the press/media vilified him for this. From that moment on, they went after him on Clinton’s sexual conduct every time the name came up.
Every serious inquiry directed at Gore – leaving aside “Why are you such a liar?” – was framed as “Are you your own man?” Gore task was to define who he was apart from Clinton. That did not mean he was disrespecting Clinton.
Here’s a quote from Gore’s speech to the DNC:
Clearly, he wanted nothing to do with Clinton.
tallpete
@Joel: Whachu talking ’bout Willis?
There were 10 candidates in the 2014 Dem Primary from all corners, half of whom started knowing they were actually possible serious contenders and not just also-rans (like the keebler elf guy this year) or issue candidates like Sanders who surprised himself and is now a serious contender. The current Dem Primary definitely had a feeling of coronation for one candidate – moreso than any in recent history.
The long list of viable Dem Pres candidates did their party no favors by stepping aside for Clinton.
Princess
@James E Powell: Maybe someone has said this already, but the only evidence you need of Gore running away from Clinton is him picking Lieberman, who had been so critical of Clinton and the Lewinsky mess, to be his VP. That sent an unmistakeable signal.
FlipYrWhig
@Suzanne: All of this. SO this.
@Brachiator: I was prepared to find Sanders cuddly at the outset. It’s not working on me. He doesn’t have enough goofiness. There was one glimmer of it in the debate the other night when he guffawed about a question about 1964. But more often he seems prickly and impatient. IMHO in a conversational setting Bill Clinton would talk your ear off for hours, Hillary would have a series of carefully chosen anecdotes, and Bernie would clear his throat, check his watch, scratch the top of his head and walk away.
Origuy
@J R in WV:
The State Super is elected in California.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: It’s not working on me. He doesn’t have enough goofiness
He can be pretty funny, he played along well with Larry Wimore, and rode with the whole Larry David thing. But his self-righteousness can get disingenuous, like when he pretended that including “speaking fees” in his Wall St ad had nothing to do with Hillary Clinton, or when he used “every advanced country in the world has universal health care” to slide into a defense of brining up single payer. I’m pretty confident he understands the distinction, I’m not sure the same is true of the excited adolescents he’s training to think Hillary Clinton is the Witch of Wall St
tallpete
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
So you finally pass the stalled Volvo noticing the old and umkempt looking driver leaning out the window with his hand in the air. Is he waving for help or shaking his fist? Who the fuck knows! The crazy bastard. Anyway you’re too busy to care so you speed by only to be stopped again – within 2 blocks of the school – by several oversized black SUVs blocking both lanes with “Let Well Enough Alone” and “What does it matter?” stickers carefully placed on the bumpers. Several secret service agents knock on you window to let you know the roads closed for the Trump parade. You’ll have to find another route to your destination.
tallpete
@Suzanne:
LOL, you’re right! that describes Hillary to a T
C.V. Danes
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Sorry. Obama is perfect. Enjoy your life under the TPP.
Amir Khalid
@Kropadope:
I have never condescended to you. I have questioned your reasons for supporting Bernie, that’s all. I make no secret of the fact that I consider Hillary the better all-round candidate for the job of the presidency.
Here’s an example: Foreign policy is one of the most important parts of the president’s job. Why does a man contending for the nomination against a former Secretary of State not trouble to study it? He keeps mentioning that one Senate vote back in 2002. But in the most recent debate, when he was asked about the Middle East, he blew the question. By raising it, I do not condescend to you.
mclaren
Then you must not know your history.
Truman -> FDR. LBJ -> JFK. George H.W. Bush -> Reagan. The list goes on.
mclaren
@Amir Khalid:
Beautiful example of how completely out of touch the Balloon Juice commentariat are with real-world politics in 2016.
That statement was totally true from 1945 to 1991, and is totally untrue after 1991.
Foreign policy is completely 100% utterly unimportant today to an American president. There are no foreign policy threats to America in 2016, there are not likely to be any threats anytime in the foreseeable future, and with large-scale land wars a thing of the past, foreign policy knowledge in 2016 ranks all the way down with knowing the state flower for all 50 states.
It’s so thoroughly unimportant to any presidential candidate today that a lack of foreign policy expertise is, in 2016, a positive advantage, since it deters the erstwhile president from doing something stupid. Basically America can simply sit back and ignore the rest of the world. We have no meaningful threats, and all our current challenges are economic. A prospective president should have a solid grounding in Keynesian macroeconomics, but need know nothing about foreign policy.
C.V. Danes
@mclaren: Excellent, although I do wonder what effect a sustained rebellion in China would have on the world economy.
mclaren
@Brachiator:
I’ve seen both Hillary and Bill Clinton up close personal giving live speeches and answering live questions one-on-one. Hillary strikes me as authentic, albeit polished. Bill is the real deal, he has genuine charisma. I still wouldn’t him as far as I can spit, but he has charm. Hillary hsa the kind of polish that comes from doing something long enough that it’s become second nature. I don’t think that’s unlikeability, it’s closer to professionalism. Both do come off as professional politicians. Well? So? They are.
mclaren
@gene108:
This is why the Democratic party has joined Bernie. And it’s why worries about Bernie not working with the Demos if he gets elected are moot.
Kropadope
@Amir Khalid: You have never once raised that as a concern to me. Hell, I’ve brought it up on my own as a concern I have with Bernie at least once. What you usually do is swoop in after I’ve gotten in a fight with someone else and post something along the lines of “Hmm, I’m totally above the fray and all, but I think that guy has a point.”
You did it the other night when Omnes pulled a comment out of his ass about me accusing HRC of rigging the election, when all I said was that she had a good strategy and hired good people who knew how to pull it off.. Omnes ultimately even apologized for the comment. What did you have to say on the matter? “I think that was a fair interpretation of your comment.”
At other times you’ve dinged me for being impractical and not understanding the legislative process and thinking Bernie can just magically get what he wants if he’s elected president after I’ve posted dozens of comments explaining that the whole reason I support Bernie is that I think he’s a pragmatic guy who knows how to compromise and temper his proposals so that they could pass Congress.
You pretty much ignore what I say and argue against the media caricature of a Sanders supporter. You’re on a list right now with cacti, Mnemosyme, GoBlue,. John D., Corner Stone, and Jim Foolish Literalist where I just can’t take what you say seriously.
John Hill
@Jade: clarence thomas is no democrat he is not in teh tent. @Suzanne: can you (or your comment) have my babies? I cant have yours but im an earner ;)
Suzanne
@John Hill: um, thank you for the kind offer, but I’m gonna have to decline. Spawning is hard work.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@C.V. Danes: Yup. That’s exactly what I said. And you’re not at all histrionic, self-righteous drama queen
different-church-lady
Only half a TBogg on a Cracker/Bernie/Hillary thread? C’mon, people, I know it’s Saturday and all, but jeez…
different-church-lady
@Kropadope:
Have you ever met an elderly shut-in?
Seriously?
Kropadope
@different-church-lady: Oh, thanks for reminding me you’re on my list of unnecessarily unpleasant people.
ETA: You understand I was talking about the broader population and not some extreme subset, right? A fact I underline by identifying one such extreme subset and ruling them out. I didn’t have the time to identify every such subset and I was hoping I could avoid doing so with assholes, but here you are.
Monala
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): you absolutely need to dilute tea tree oil in a carrier oil (almond or coconut). I used it directly on a skin tag and severely burned myself. I now have a half inch round welt in the spot.
randy khan
@mclaren:
This is mind-bogglingly obtuse. Hint: China is a threat, maybe not militarily, but certainly economically. North Korea is a threat because one nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day. (Ditto Iran – hence the enormous effort over most of the Obama Administration to deal with the Iranian nuclear weapons program.) Russia is a threat. OPEC could be a threat to our whole economy.
Not to mention, of course, thinking about it in the other direction – proper management of relationships with other countries can be beneficial to the U.S. in myriad ways, starting with opening markets for U.S. goods and services. Opening up Cuba, for instance, would be a net plus for the U.S. economy if handled correctly. Our crazy foreign policy towards that country has cost us significantly over the last couple of decades.
You’re very authoritative, I’ll give you that, but this is of a piece with your claim that Clinton taking money from Goldman Sachs to give speeches was an indictable offense.