Wow- Bill Press is still on CNN?
Gloria Borger puzzles me, though, insisting Obama took on the banks. Yes, we passed Dodd/Frank and as someone reminded me, the CFPB, but when people say aggressively took on the banks, I think they are talking about prosecutions for misconduct and clawbacks. Obama and Holder didn’t do that, and I don’t hold it against them one bit. I wish they had, but they made the calculation, much like prosecuting the Bush war crimes, that it would get nowhere, grind the entire country to a halt (moreso even than what happened) and that it would be a disaster in at time where there needed to be action. There were far more pressing matters- the stimulus, ACA, and so on. And I think in the end, that was right.
On to the debate.
I thought Hillary was much more focused, much better, and clearly rattled Bernie, who I thought was going to blow a gasket at the end. I still think Clinton is too hawkish for me, and I doubt Hillary will mention Kissinger again this primary.
All in all, I would say that was a VERY clear and convincing win for Hillary, and on top of the CBC PAC endorsing her (someone else can explain why there is a CBC endorsement and a CBC PAC endorsement, because I have no idea and no desire to google it), it was a really, really good day for Hillary. When your opponent is complaining about a low blow, redfaced, and sputtering, and you’re sitting there with a smile on your face and a crowd cheering, it’s pretty clear who won. Not to mention, wrapping yourself up in Obama is a good look.
Unless her team of idiots keep dropping an anchor through the bottom of the boat, this election could really be blown wide open when SC votes. That would be great for me, because I am really, really, ready for this to be over and am officially sick and tired of debates and town halls.
Your thoughts?
redshirt
Fuck all Republicans.
Baud
I blame DWS for scheduling so many damn debates.
Trentrunner
Hillary had a good debate.
I’m disappointed Bernie hasn’t deepened his analysis of race and other oppression in America. He’s never going to win the black Dem vote by insisting that economics trumps all. (Hint: Homophobia & gay rights had literally nothing to do with economics, and look at what a shitfight that is/was. Civil rights for AAs is that x 100.)
Hillary also won on optics. Bernie looked and sounded much more than 5 years older than Clinton.
Parmenides
I thought it was a bit more equal then that. But I’m going into it with some very different ideas. While I love foreign policy I’m not sure that knowing huge amounts about it is that bad, as long as you aren’t walking into the presidency with no curiosity and a bevy of advisors that have a hard on for war. They are talking to two different audiences. And it all depends on which one shows up.
Clinton is working to show that she is the most knowledable about everything and that she can be trusted as the first women ever to hold the presidency. Sanders is talking to everyone who thinks that the system is designed to produce the most perverse outcome and so talking in detail is meaningless. In fact he probably believes that talking in specifics is meaningless because he knows it all depends on who is in the senate and house when these things are going through.
Just Some Fuckhead
I think a long contested primary is good for Democrats, just like it was in 2008. It’s a show and people get invested in the characters.
Political junkies are going to go nuts because it is literally 2008 redux. One of the reasons I support Clinton is so we never have to do this again.
Omnes Omnibus
Since the latest thing you characterized as dropping an anchor through the bottom of a boat was a fair normal attempt to lower expectations (a “Bob is a very skilled debater” type of thing), I haven’t seen much seen much anchor dropping. Tonight, she jabbed Scott Walker a couple of times in WI and wore a beer/cheese/Packers’ gold colored top. Her team is looking at details.
kc
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Chelsea.
ETA: Though don’t know who she’d be up against in the Dem primary. One of the Biden kids, perhaps?
Parmenides
Also not sure how much it matters to anyone but his Kissinger points were so much fun.
Mike with a mic
She’s a bad candidate. And let’s be honest, if you don’t like Kissinger or Wall Street your not voting for Clinton. She is Kissinger ++ and more pro Wall Street than any politician out there. Voting for her is voting for Wall Street and Kissinger. That’s fine, but if you support her and don’t profess to love Wall Street and Kissinger you’re a fucking liar or lunatic.
kped
I thought it was good for both overall, and it’s really striking seeing such sane and rational answers to questions. It’s such a contrast from the Republican debates, and whomever you support, you have to appreciate that.
I think the Kissinger stuff is a bit overblown. Most just don’t know who he is (you think a hispanic in Nevada gives 2 shits about Kissinger? Please. What does a single mother in South Carolina care about Kissinger? It’s a pointless thing to go on about for Sanders, too inside baseball. And…if you go after Kissinger, don’t praise Churchill….it’s just asking for a quick google search….)
I’m not sure why Sanders had such a short closing statement, it kind of fizzled, whereas Hillary really brought some fire with hers, very impressed that she brought in the entire Dem coalition in her remarks, but make it coherent and passionate. Thought that won her the debate. And it’s no wonder the unions support her. She does a great job bringing them up.
Technocrat
@kc:
LOL
Charlotte 20…uh….2056!
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Ha!
redshirt
Is Bill Clinton ill?
Gin & Tonic
@Parmenides: Henry Kissinger is as relevant to the 2016 election as Cordell Hull.
Scott Alloway
In the end, I thought HRC was solid and convincing in this debate. She wins the round. It was so much more involving than the GOP debate that it makes me wonder if people really pay attention. Nah. Longer than 30 seconds.
Gin & Tonic
@redshirt: He is approaching 70 years of age and has had heart surgery.
scott (the other one)
I only watched the last fifteen minutes, but I burst out laughing when Clinton talked about Sanders calling Obama weak. My kid asked me what we so funny, and I explained that Clinton had just landed a devastating bodyblow. Seconds later, Sanders called it a low blow and I was pleased we both recognized it for more or less what it was, although I believe it was entirely above the belt.
I really like Bernie’s stances on most things and I’m really glad he’s in the race. But he does not handle criticism well. Which isn’t surprising: when’s the last time he had a seriously competitive race?
Cacti
Eff Bill Press and his “Buyer’s Remorse”.
Gin & Tonic
@Mike with a mic: I have despised Kissinger longer than you have been alive, and will eagerly vote for HRC is she is the Dem nominee.
redshirt
@Gin & Tonic: Is he going to die soon? And if he did, before the election, how would this effect Hillary’s chances?
kped
@redshirt: How on earth would poster “Gin & Tonic” know if Bill Clinton was on the verge of death? What a bizarre question.
Technocrat
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Yeah I have to agree. In all the Primary sturm und drang It’s easy to forget that one of these two will be going up against the Republican…possibly Trump. They need to be hardened and ready for a fight.
Betty Cracker
I didn’t think it was a lopsided victory for Clinton, though I’d give her the edge. She’s just a really good debater, and it sounded like poor Bernie has a rotten cold like I do.
Both played to their strengths. He was passionate and focused on the $$$ issue, and she displayed a formidable command of policy and details as usual.
Don’t think this debate will change any minds. I still like both and will be happy to vote for whomever wins.
Cacti
@Mike with a mic:
For an alleged millennial, you sure do seem hung up on an administration that ended well before you were born.
John Cole
@redshirt: I’ve thought he had pumphead since some of his performances on the campaign trail in 2008 and some people just aren’t as hardy as others after bypass surgery.
redshirt
@kped: Do you know? I’m thinking of placing a bet and this is key information.
Omnes Omnibus
@scott (the other one): It is interesting. I am starting to see HRC as boxer. Not a puncher. A careful boxer who works the ring and throws the big punch when her opponent is cornered. It seems to be how she works when she is on her game.
ETA: Bernie flat out walked into that punch.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt: Someone would convene a select, special House committee to determine if she killed him to generate sympathy and therefore game the election. Or to invoke the mythical “if your spouse dies before the general election you automatically win” rule. Kind of like the equally mythical “if your room mate dies during the semester you get all As for the semester” rule.
jl
” Gloria Borger puzzles me, though, insisting Obama took on the banks. ”
I think that line is necessary for the trite left wing / right wing, Democratic / Republican simple minded media narrative, which must always be fallowed without deviation. Obama is a Democrat therefore he goes after business. Additional evidence or argumentation is neither required nor desired.
Moderation better in this debate, but too many questions had CW conservative framing, though not as heavily loaded and slanted as in others.
Steve in the ATL
My browser must have redirected me to Firedoglake. Where did all these people come from the last few days?
Gin & Tonic
@redshirt: I have no idea. If he were to die between now and November, I think it would gain HRC a significant sympathy vote, but I don’t know how she’d handle it personally.
But kped is right, that’s a stupid question.
David M
@Mike with a mic:
lolwut? Any politician?
Oldgold
Clinton was the clear winner.
Although not substantive, Sanders hacking hurt him. It brought attention to serious concern people have about his age/health.
PhoenixRising
She clearly won. No one in Bernie’s fan base who knows who Kissinger is was ever gonna vote for her. That was his most effective moment, and it wasn’t a scored blow in the mind of 1 undecided.
He was rambling, used some questionable phrases (black kids hanging out on the corner need jobs? we tried that approach in 1994 and now have an incarceration crisis) and the cough was scary. Grandpa is going up to bed because Grandma is tired of him yelling until he chokes.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Since House will not even consider Obama budget, they have plenty of time to do investigations of future crimes that HRC would commit if she were president, and will also cover up with such ruthless efficiency, will never be discovered and therefore imperative to investigate now.
kc
@Cacti:
Yeah, these damn kids, caring about history. Get off our lawn!
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@Scott Alloway:
This is personal, and wildly off-topic, but by any remote chance did you have a grandfather or great-g’father or something named Wellington Alloway who lived in the Chicago area in the early 1940s? Your last name (if it even is your last name, this being the Internet) is not unique, but unusual enough that I need to ask. Feel free to tell me to fuck off if you don’t care to answer.
Parmenides
@Gin & Tonic: Cordell Hull got shafted. Great negotiator.
redshirt
@Gin & Tonic: I was told there’s no such thing as a stupid question.
Bill Clinton is a huge factor in this election, and in the inevitable Hillary Presidency.
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
The performance of Clinton’s team is becoming a concern to me about what her administration will look like. I mean, Clinton ostensibly hired her campaign team. It’s beginning to make me worry about what kind of cabinet she’ll appoint and personnel she’ll hire.
Renie
I have two 20 something kids both ‘feeling the bern’ but I asked my 21 yr old daughter her feelings about Hillary. She said a lot of women her age don’t see the accomplishment of a women president so pressing like my generation does cuz they are use to seeing women in all different levels of positions. Though she will vote for the Democratic nominee, Hillary is not really her preferred candidate and believes a better woman candidate can become president in the future. Interesting to hear that perspective from that side of the generational divide (which is part of her ”women in politics” class curriculum).
redshirt
@John Cole: What’s pumphead?
Adam L Silverman
@jl: There’s a larger play with the budget. The refusal to consider is for public consumption and to try to box the Freedom Caucus guys in. What the leadership really wants is a simple affirmation vote that reaffirms the budget deal, with the top line numbers agreed to last DEC. They do not want to bring it up for a vote because 1) they can’t control the Freedom Caucus folks and 2) they don’t want anyone up for reelection in November to have to take a vote on those numbers in an election year that is separate from Speaker Boehner negotiated this before falling on his sword and retiring. These guys and gals are scared to death to have to do their jobs and live up to their agreements.
Just Some Fuckhead
@JGabriel:
I’m throwing the bullshit flag. You pulled that one out of the archives, didn’t you?
kped
@jl: THey don’t have to go to the future…they still have the EMAILS!!!!
(it’s hilarious seeing even progressive-ish sites flogging email crap. It seems to be a new hobby horse for Gawker, “congress is recommending charges, should Lynch recuse herself?” was asked seriously there…like, who cares what Republican congress wants? They want to impeach her and she isn’t even president for christs sake! And don’t even get me started on Salon…god, it’s getting to the point that I don’t read anything written by a 20-35 year old white male anymore…I know what the article is before I start reading…and I’m in that freaking demographic…my people suck…I’m rambling…should stop…)
Cacti
@kc:
Just because it ended in 1974 doesn’t mean it’s not a pressing issue in 2016, because “Feel the Bern”.
Actually, Grandpa Goodness might want to update his cultural references.
balconesfault
@David M: Hillary wouldn’t even be the most pro-Wall Street Senator from New York, if she were still holding that seat. Chuck Shumer’s tagline reads (D-Wall Street).
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt:
Anyone who has ever taught says that, but we all know it isn’t really true. We pretend and only roll our eyes later.
JerryN
I’d score it 10-9 for Clinton. Nobody landed any really serious blows, no major missteps. Clinton’s better in this format than Sanders – a little quicker on her feet and better at appearing to answer a question without falling back on talking points. Overall, I don’t think this changed anyone’s mind, but it might have helped with people’s comfort level. Bernie was better on foreign policy than he was the last time although it’s still really a weak spot. Hillary was better than she had been on economic issues but she’s got to come up with a better way to deflect the questions about Wall Street..
I thought the moderators did a good job, too. I do wish that the questions covered more ground – climate, reproductive rights, right-wing terror just never seem to come up.
Technocrat
@Renie:
I mean, she’s not wrong. I can think of three female CEO’s off the top of my head, and I can probably only name TEN CEO’s total. But “President” seems, to me, to be a cut above CEO. Maybe that’s the generational divide, belief that the Presidency is a unique and special thing.
Joe in MI
Clinton was polished, but Sanders was authentic. I’ll take authentic over polished any day.
Amit Joshi
@Mike with a mic: Hmm. I don’t like Kissinger or Wall Street, but I’m still planning to vote for Clinton.
My vote may not matter, since California primaries are all the way out in June. But still, that’s the plan so far. I like Bernie, but even after all the debates I still don’t see any reason to prefer him over Hillary.
Suzanne
I agree that HRC won tonight. I have thought during all of these debates that more than anyone else, she exudes competence. After two administrations of No-Drama Obama, I think it’s easy to forget how vital that is. It’s not sexy, and I don’t think she’s perfect by any stretch, but I do not worry about her basic competency.
I still haven’t devided for whom to vote..
Parmenides
But in all seriousness he’s going to have to do some work on the calling Obama weak comment, cause Afam voters will not forgive that. South Carolina Republicans have too much to vote for on their side to mess in the democratic primary and that could be majority Afam. Unless he brings in a lot of people who don’t vote in primaries normally he doesn’t have a chance in SC. But if he comes out the winner in Nevada or the perceived winner then he could survive and take some of the South east primaries, but I haven’t looked at the demographics of those states so don’t know how he could win.
RandomMonster
@Mike with a mic:
I don’t like Kissinger or Wall Street, at all, and yet I want to vote for the candidate I think has the best chance to defeat a Republican. Apparently I’m lunatic, because I’m not a liar.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks for info. My take away is, good, still time for GOP Congressional hearings now on future HRC presidential high crimes and misdemeanors.
In fact, why not impeach her now and get it over with, then they can start the Senate trial on DAY ONE! Impeaching her for stuff she did in the past is passe and so industrial age. Impeaching her for future crimes she obviously will commit is innovative entrepreneurial and thinking-outside-the-box.
Parmenides
Also, a lot of this derp level comments from her campaign will not be there in the general campaign. The issue is that in intercene fights picayune details matter and there’s just a lot less to worry about when running a campaign against donald trump.
beltane
I’m really not pleased. While I like Bernie’s ideas better, he’s not a great general election candidate and would never get full institutional support from the Democratic party anyway. Hillary is quite appalling, a cuttlefish who effortlessly changes color to blend in with her surroundings. Put her in the “privatize social security” room and people my age and younger will be left with nothing. She is a very adept follower, but not the leader her fans see her as.
Both candidates are old and aging fast. It’s too bad no “serious” candidate decided to run against Hillary (maybe they were discouraged from doing so) because I don’t think she will have Obama’s coalition to work with and November could easily be a bloodbath, especially down ticket. The DNC will be OK with this as long as they keep the donations rolling in.
Sorry, but I’m just not feeling very positive.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: Of course. I was being sarcastic.
The impulse to question is never stupid. But you should think about your question before asking, as there are obviously dumb questions.
Major Major Major Major
Bernie won the coin toss. I’m suspicious.
redshirt
@beltane: I disagree entirely. I think Hillary gets most of the Obama coalition plus rural white votes he didn’t get. West Virginia is back in play. North Carolina goes blue again. I really like Hillary’s metrics.
kc
@Cacti:
Actually, Hillary might want to think twice before she touts the fact that Kissinger thinks she’s terrific.
guachi
My thoughts? Bernie is as obsessed with money as any banker from Goldman Sachs is.
Worst answer of the night was Bernie saying that he’ll solve racial inequality by taking money from millionaires and creating jobs for all the blacks who hang out on street corners.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: Several GOP Congressman have made that suggestions already.
PhoenixRising
@beltane:
Oh bullshit. There is no way you think that, let alone can support it with anything the candidate has ever said or done in the past 40 years.
You don’t trust her, you think she’s not a leader, okay. I’m not going to waste your time pointing out some of the (ahem) reasons you might feel that way with no evidence, because you feel how you feel.
But ‘she’s going to destroy the most popular public program in the history of a party she’s been working for since 1970 because she’s not committed to The Cause’ crap…come on. You’re smarter than that. There’s a lot to worry about if she’s elected that is legitimate and reality-based, but that’s crap.
Omnes Omnibus
@beltane:
Why not?
Why?
I ask this because she is tying herself to Obama and emulating his 2008 strategy – get delegates. She obviously learned from 2008.
jl
@Parmenides: And I think some of the semi-derp level comments from the candidates themselves will not be important. The Democratic candidates are positioning themselves for political advantage in the primaries. I don’t see that HRC has said anything that can hurt her much in the general (though that is assuming that Sanders will actively support her if she wins, as he as promised. I don’t take him at his word particularly, but I hope and expect he does so because it would be in his best interest to do so, unless he is a complete fool).
If HRC starts committing unforced campaign errors, that would be a bad sign. Like panicking and doing some goofy shake-up of her campaign in response to NH results that were pretty obvious weeks before the primary.
Cacti
@kc:
And maybe recent Democrat Sanders ought to stop running against the sitting Democratic POTUS.
Wait, no, I hope he keeps that up.
Elie
@John Cole:
No — Its not pumphead. He has a fragile heart which may not pump well. He has had two major cardiac vascular surgeries … He has had to slow down. I know I thought he had pump head (damage to the brain from the pressure of the bypass machine), but I think its just more the course of his cardiovascular disease. No one lives forever and he had quintuple bypass surgery and then a re-op. He may have left a cell or two on the table but I think he is still pretty good mentally. He just can’t run with the pack like he used to
p.a.
@jl: Yes House Leadership is busy planning their own budget based on the Kansas/Louisiana model.
Parmenides
@kc: I’m not sure you can add the Clinton coalition to the Obama coalition and get West Virginia back. North Carolina may be out of reach too. But West Virginia voted over 60 percent for romney. I’m not sure where a 6 point swing comes from in that state. Obama won NC in a wave election, he also won indiana. Not sure how close were are to making NC an actual purple state.
kped
@jl: It’s quite striking actually. Look at all the stuff the Republicans will have to soften if they want to peel off mushy-moderates, or not totally crater with hispanics and african americans again. But the Dem winner can easily just keep saying what they are saying. It’s a big advantage.
NR
Kissinger is a war criminal. An actual, literal war criminal.
The fact that Hillary considers him a friend and mentor speaks volumes.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: I think they were going to impeach her for past high crimes. I think the eleven hour extravbenganzi hearings and very slim email pickings wrecked that plan.
Impeaching her for future crimes, well, room for more creativity there.
Cacti
@guachi:
Does that include his friends like Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore, Simon & Garfunkel, and Ben & Jerry? Or do they get to keep theirs for being the right kind of millionaire?
Elie
@beltane:
Well consider President Trump to bring that around a bit. You would rather that? (BTW, Trump is 69 and likes to sleep in his own bed every night after having some warm milk and a foot massage)
Gin & Tonic
@redshirt:
You were lied to.
jl
@p.a.: ” House Leadership is busy planning their own budget based on the Kansas/Louisiana model. ”
thanks for cheering me up. /snark
kped
@Elie: I’ve had coworkers see him speak in the past few years, after his surgeries, and they said he was brilliant and talked in depth and at length on a variety of topics. I really don’t think anyone should be throwing around claims of brain damage. He obviously was affected by his heart surgeries, but his brain is still strong.
Elie
@guachi:
If not THE worst, one of the worst. Hillary let him get away with it. He should have been slaughtered and ridiculed.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Omnes Omnibus: Obama is cool, Clinton is not. People flock to cool people. They don’t flock to nerds. I know this is going to hurt many in the Balloon Juice community but someone had to say it out loud. Clinton is going to struggle to pull Obama’s numbers.
p.a.
@PhoenixRising: She’s signed the pledge not to cut SS, but hasn’t committed to increase it (the Eschaton Position).
balconesfault
@Parmenides: Just not having a black dude at the head of the ticket is going to make a huge difference in West by God Virginia.
Elie
@kped:
I agree. That is what I said (though I alluded to one or two cells on the table). He is sharp. He just has to take his time physically/
Steve Crickmore
How do Bernie and Hillary stand up in their speeches on the US Senate floor concerning the most important foreign policy decision the US has made to the 21st century? Which senator seems wiser and appears to know what he or she is talking about? “So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him – use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein – this is your last chance – disarm or be disarmed. Thank you, Mr. President (George W. Bush).
And the other senator… “Fifth, I am concerned about the problems of so-called unintended consequences. Who will govern Iraq when Saddam Hussein is removed and what role will the U.S. play in ensuing a civil war that could develop in that country? Will moderate governments in the region who have large Islamic fundamentalist populations be overthrown and replaced by extremists?”
Who is the expert know-it all but yet doesn’t have a clue or can’t anticipate the effects of American foreign policy and who does? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/911-bernie-sanders-iraq-hillary-clinton_b_8121026.html
Suzanne
I will be glad when I never have to hear about all the fucked-up things people did during the Vietnam era. Who served, who got a deferment, who supported the war, who protested….I’M SICK OF IT, BOOMERZ.
It kinda feels like more Boomer exceptionalism at times..
beltane
@redshirt: I live around rural white people They hate Hillary’s guts. A whole generation of them has grown up hating her guts. It is a way of life. She will have PoC and upper middle class people on the coasts which may be enough but could still result in veto-proof majorities in Congress. Her unfavorables are already at something like 52% giving her absolutely no room for error in a general election campaign. None. If her only message to young people is “We can’t have nice things in America”, she and the rest of us are going to be in for a world of hurt.
Elie
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Hell, Bernie can’t pull Obama’s numbers! Both would/will struggle.
Jim, Foolish LIteralist
I didn’t watch, but this seems plausible
Cacti
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Obama was the total package of rock star charisma plus Ivy League smarts. Neither of the current Dem candidates is that.
Thankfully, none of the GOPers are either.
Omnes Omnibus
@Just Some Fuckhead: What states that BHO won is HRC likely to lose? It is all about the electoral college.
gwangung
I just don’t think ANYONE appreciates what a rare package this is for a politician.
jl
@Elie: Sanders was bad there. He forgot his line on treating racial justice issues on parallel tracks: economics and systematic racism.
He is not quick on his feet unless tied to specific policy arguments, and I don’t think he ever has been very quick that way. He is quick on specific policy issues, and can be quick on gotchas (you ran against him!, funny but ultimately silly line) but not in more nuanced situations.
These two are not Obama, and not Bill. I just hope good enough to win. Glad the GOPers this cycle are so dreadful by comparison. And they will have much less practice in serious debates (I refuse to call their freak shows and pro-wrestling promo BS serious debates).
Just Some Fuckhead
@Elie: I didn’t say he would and don’t think so either. The conversation was about Clinton.
JustOutsideTheBeltway
RE: CBC vs CBC PAC
The CBC PAC is an “independent” group who raise money for the members of the Congressional Black Caucus. Like most PACs, it is run by, and for, special interest groups who want to trade money for influence in congress. OF COURSE they were going to endorse Clinton.
Did anyone else find it surreal to see a person literally draped in gold railing against big money in politics? I was gobsmacked by the optics.
cmorenc
@Trentrunner:
On her handling of the debate discussions, yes. OTOH I’m not so sure about the yellow coat, which made her look like Tweety Bird without the speech impediment.
kped
@Cacti: I actually think Rubio is the worst in that regard. Even before he became Dr Roboto, he always seemed like a kid up on stage (and I’m younger than him…). He talks to fast, like he is trying to say his speech as quick as possible before he forgets it. He looks perpetually sweaty.
Ted Cruz just comes off as a smarmy prick. Really, only kaisch comes off looking semi-OK, and only if you don’t listen to his actual beliefs. Just the optics.
NR
@Omnes Omnibus: She will definitely lose Florida. Ohio and Virginia will be uncomfortably close. All it takes is one more state after that and she’s toast.
And that is the BEST case scenario for a Clinton candidacy.
beltane
@Just Some Fuckhead: Yup. The people thinking that Hillary is going to do well in Appalachia because she’s white are stuck in the 1990s. The Clintons have campaigned tirelessly for Democratic candidates in that region with absolutely no effect. This is not going change when Obama leaves office and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go smoke another blunt.
The Republican takeoever of rural American started well before Obama was elected and is not going to reverse itself because there’s a blond lady at the top of the ticket.
JCJ
@redshirt:
Cognitive impairment following bypass surgery is called pumphead
Redshift
@RandomMonster:
As I noted the last time MwaM was commenting here regularly, I don’t think he’s ever posted a comment where he wasn’t completely full of shit. It’s quite an impressive record, almost Kristol-like.
p.a.
@Elie: I hate that this election outcome may rest more on how many the Rethugs alienate than on how many the Dems (HRC) can inspire. I think, abetted by the MSM, the Rethugs can pull the ‘compassionate cons’ BS again.
PhoenixRising
@Suzanne: Tonight’s foray into ‘Who was right in 1967?’ was actually the relevant exception to my Oh Shut Up About Vietnam, Only-Generation-Ever rule.
It is deeply relevant to what kind of President each candidate would be that she talks to someone who is objectively a war criminal just in case he has another perspective that might be helpful, and he is proud to have a list of knowledgeable people he would never listen to…because what they know ain’t so.
HRC is looking for the cracks in the wall where light comes through, and willing to tolerate a stench where she finds it; Bernie is going to get the youth and workers to help him tear down the wall and doesn’t need any glimmers in the meantime. It was a great summary of who they are.
beltane
@NR: New Hampshire is a state she could well loose. If Gore had won there in 2000 Florida would have been irrelevant.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Omnes Omnibus: All the ones that were close in 2012.
jl
@kped:
” He talks to fast, like he is trying to say his speech as quick as possible before he forgets it. He looks perpetually sweaty. ”
His delivery is like a nervous kid with no self confidence rushing his way through a student recital. I saw a lot of those in HS and managed to pull some off myself.
Omnes Omnibus
@JustOutsideTheBeltway: Have you checked into how many members of the CBC have endorsed Clinton?
And far as what she wore? As I noted above a beer/cheese/Packers’ gold choice is not a bad thing in Wisconsin. You know, where the debate was held.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@beltane: they may hate the Clintons in your part of vermont, but they did win vermont by 16 pts in 92 and by 22 pts in 96.
beltane
@p.a.: During the debate Scott Walker tweeted that while Hillary was raking up donations from the big banks, he was making college more affordable in WI by freezing tuition. If I didn’t know better, I might have thought the GOP would do something for me. They are extremely clever at this game.
Eric U.
I tell my students that they can ask stupid questions, because I reserve the right to ask stupid questions.
Technocrat
@Steve Crickmore:
Kerry voted “Yes” on the AUMF, and it’s looking like he has successfully brokered a Syrian cease-fire
Obama voted “No”, and he has been fairly liberal with drone strikes.
The hypothesis that the AUMF vote is a proxy determination of FP skills is really just that – a hypothesis.
Elie
@cmorenc:
Yeah, the yellow tweety outfit was not a win… but she has never been a style maven but oh well….
jl
Jeez. This is ending on a cheerful note.
So, they are both unelectable, and will lose to some GOP clown? I’m outta here before I end up having nightmares.
Earlier we had the Sanders doom thread, now it is the HRC doom thread.
Omnes Omnibus
@NR: What is Sanders map? In your opinion, what states can he get that she cannot?
beltane
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: “They” are they are package deal. Hillary will win Vermont but she will inspire the type of turnout that will leave us with a Republican governor. NH and ME would be worse.
Redshift
@NR:
Democrats swept all three statewide offices in an off-year election in Virginia. Gerrymandering is the only reason the state is still purple. I’d be fascinated to hear which one of these GOP jackasses you think could make it “uncomfortably close.”
Omnes Omnibus
@cmorenc: @Elie: You are both wrong.
Parmenides
@balconesfault: I’m not saying it won’t be closer but the 2008 number was around 55 and Bush won the state twice. That’s four elections for Republicans, I’m not sure its going back.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Cacti: We agree on Obama’s awesomeness. Where we start to diverge is the thinking that Republicans have to be awesome like Obama to be elected. Look at the president before Obama.
p.a.
@beltane: Anyone tweet back asking how long he can keep that up given the state’s anemic job growth v Minnesota?
JerryN
@Just Some Fuckhead: Hell, if there’s a terror attack here between the conventions and election day that can be tied to ISIS or Al Qaeda, the Dem candidate will be lucky to carry their home state. If there’s one in Western Europe, it’ll be almost as bad.
beltane
@p.a.: Not that I’m aware of though someone must have done it by now.
mike in dc
@Suzanne:
Ironically, Bernie’s not a Boomer. He’s from the tail end of the Silent Generation.
beltane
@Just Some Fuckhead: It takes an extremely charismatic Democrat to beat even a mediocre Republican. That’s just how we roll here in this country.
Elie
@Omnes Omnibus:
I like her whatever… I just see “the boss”…
p.a.
@Technocrat: I have a hypothesis that if we never invaded Iraq there would be no need for a Syrian cease fire. So AUMF support is maybe indicitive of something.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Technocrat: Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?
beltane
It will be hard going from Obama to someone belonging to my parents’ generation (and I’m middle aged).
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@beltane: you can’t really think a 75 year old Socialist, pacifist, who doesn’t believe in Hey-Zeus, and who wants to raise payroll taxes and end capitalism would survive the corporate media red baiting.
That’s just not logical.
I mean, McGovern said he would win because white people in his rural state loved him and he ended up losing his own home state.
Cacti
@mike in dc:
The party definitely needs to rejuvenate at the highest level.
That our top 2 candidates are 68 and 74 is more than a little concerning.
chopper
@Cacti:
now you’re on the trolley!
redshirt
Sounds like we’re doomed.
The real question of this next election is: Are we a Republican nation, and all the insanity that brings, or a Democratic nation, sane and reasonable?
We’re gonna find out, and however it turns out, we’ll deserve it.
jl
@Just Some Fuckhead: OK, I am trying to force myself away from this doom fest, but saw that.
W was pretty awesome at fooling people at election time. He knew how to package himself as a cool manly real working man’s cowpoke dude people trusted. And he lied his ass off in terms of the ideological posture that his administration would have, right from the get-go. He didn’t have to do much dancing to the middle after the primaries, IIRC.
The current GOPers don’t have the political and campaign shrewdness of W, and have put on a far uglier public face than W during the primaries. W emitted artful and ornately crafted dog whistles, the current GOPers have turned themselves into racist airhorns, or are so clumsy they have let slipped what they really think at regular intervals (Jeb).
Elie
@beltane:
Yes it will….
Steve Crickmore
@Technocrat: Because this is considered her strong suit, that she is far superior to Sanders, by her own supporters’ reckoning. Tonight she was lauding her Commander-in-Chief role as if she was chomping on the bit, as she did in her contest with Obama in 2008,. Tonight she touted her major foreign policy accomplishment, her advice to go after Osama bin Laden. Wow, that was a tough decision!
Elie
@Cacti:
I TOTALLY hear that…
That said, O’Malley really wasn’t that horrible and he was handsome and much younger. I think he can go at it again (not sure of his age). I hear you though. We need to groom and bring along some strong young talent but quick!
Omnes Omnibus
@Elie: As I mentioned above a number of times, the color she wore was a good one for the local crowd. And it looked better than Bernie’s suit because he kept leaning on the lectern and causing the shoulders of his coat to rise up. She did better on fashion than he did,
RandomMonster
@Redshift:
I’ll be quiet now :) Only an occasional responder here, so I don’t always know who is who…
beltane
I think both candidates are weak.The Democratic party as a whole has committed malpractice by clearing the field of serious candidates in order to help Hillary. Maybe this was OK in New York against a junior varsity candidate like Rick Lazio, but it is an extremely risky move in a presidential election. Like the royal family, a political party should always have an “heir and a spare.”
Thoroughly Pizzled
Fuck the Packers.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@JerryN: Not true. When the Paris attacks happened 3 months ago, polls showed it was Hillary who had the highest approval rating on terror/defense.
Elie
@Omnes Omnibus:
I had a couple of great women bosses over the years who remind me a lot of her… they would roll with anything even as their hair stood all over their heads….
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@beltane:
Who? Who was kept/cleared from running?
p.a.
@jl: Win #1 a stolen election, #2 a war vote (see Hermann Göring).
Not all doom & gloom.
Omnes Omnibus
@RandomMonster: That commenter frequently argues that Dems need to decide between social and economic justice. It is his thing.
Elie
@beltane:
Oh for Pete’s sake, give it a rest. You have been grinding on the same note for the last 50 comments Go take a nap or have some cookies and milk.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Elie: I think O’Malley was pretty close to horrible and I really wanted to like him. Hopefully, he will harden up some, stop talking like a southern evangelist doing an altar call.
Monala
@guachi: I caught only bits and piece on NPR in the car, but I heard that line and cringed. Number one, it didn’t address the question (which was about race relations), and second, it played into stereotypes (black kids on the corner). And if you take his response as an answer to the question, it comes across as if Sanders was saying, the reason why race relations aren’t good is because black kids are on the corner, but white people’s attitudes toward them will change once they have jobs.
JerryN
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I’d love to be wrong about this, but it’s one of the things that really has me worried about November.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@jl: you also have to factor in how the media really went all out to destroy Gore and cheer led for “the guy you’d like to have a beer with” who would return “honor and dignity to the oval office”.
redshirt
@beltane: When did you get so scared?
Technocrat
@p.a.:
It’s not a bad hypothesis at all. But how do you prove it? I could say that if we hadn’t disbanded the Republican Guard, Iraq would have become a functioning democracy. But how would I prove it?
A Syrian ceasefire negotiation is no small thing, so clearly AUMF-voters aren’t by definition devoid of talent in that arena.
jl
@p.a.: Thanks for reminding me. W had advantages the current GOPers do not, and he still needed to steal the election to win, and keep Democrats from a third term.
Amazing that even W looks good and smart in a few ways compared to the current GOP wreckage.
OK, now that I got a couple of cheerful thoughts in my head, I can go.
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Yes, thanks, I think I can have a restful night’s sleep now.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: I liked the gold color. The Republican women have stuck to black, gray, and navy, and everything has been kinda menswear-inspired. There’s a message in there somewhere.
beltane
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I don’t know who. But this was very much a coronation with a little bump along the road. The Clintons are said to be somewhat influential on donors. Maybe they have no influence, who knows.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@JerryN:
I mean one of the reasons the online base hates her is because she is a hawk. The broader public see her the same way.
p.a.
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Republicans did the clearing for us at the state level; governorships are where the future talent comes from, not blowhard Senators. They’ve kicked our ass there.
mike in dc
@Cacti:
Kamala Harris is 51. The Castro brothers are 41. Kristin Gillibrand is 49. Cory Booker, 46. Chris Murphy, 42. Sadly, Liz Warren is 66, so unless there’s a Republican incumbent in 2020, she’s unlikely to be in the race.
Technocrat
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Heh. Not until I can cover this Baud campaign I keep hearing about.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@beltane: I like you. You have always been a very good contributor. But I think you’re letting confirmation bias against Clinton affect you normally good judgement.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Monala: Yeah, I had the same thoughts. He sounded just like any old white guy talking about black “kids”. To his credit, I think he recognized how bad he sounded and inserted the other colors to help sell it a little better.
It should be a wake up moment for the Sanders supporters who think he alone has some superpower or presidential destiny.
Omnes Omnibus
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I think people prone to panic are panicking. I like beltane as well.
rb
@Parmenides:
If he believes this (as he must, right?) why is he not helping local and state candidates? Why didn’t he do more of this as senator? Serious question. I like the guy; never dreamed he’d done as little as he has on that score.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Technocrat: Baud is not old enough to be President, a fact I am quite sure none of Balloon Juice’s wunderkind political analysts uncovered.
Hacks, all of them.
burnspbesq
@beltane:
I’m very curious to see your list of other serious candidates who were ready to make a run in 2016.
I feel very good about 2024, with Gillinrand, Julian Castro, and Kamala Harris. But none of them could have mounted a credible campaign this year.
p.a.
When Rick ‘Four-Top’ Pitino was destroying the Boston Celtics from within, local sports radio was angry and rebellious. He named the callers and hosts ‘The Fellowship of the Miserable’.
That would be a good tag for political posts here until the election. (BUT HOPEFULLY NOT AFTER.
RandomMonster
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thanks, will keep that in mind!
seaboogie
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Nope, they don’t. And – as several here have mentioned – Obama is a “once in a lifetime” President, for inspiring hope for the present and the future – no matter how much we feel he has let us down in particular areas, with a Rebublican congress whose only goal was to make him fail.
And I am going to put one more thing out there. Remember when we got all excited about Obama’s “Hope-y Change-y” thing? True, he did inspire a lot of that. But remember that we were coming off the most disastrous Presidency of our lifetime, we were involved in two wars, and the economy was in free-fall. The domestic auto industry nearly tanked altogether. Remember “Cash for Clunkers?” It was that bad, and we have collectively forgotten most of that, because things (domestically, at least) are mostly stable.
So Hillary is back as one who wants to keep the gains that we have made and expand upon them. Not a sexy or inspirational message at all. Bernie gets our revoltionary juices flowing on the Dem side – and that feels good – but is he really the best choice for the unsexy role of Administrator in Chief? That’s what the President really does.
On the Republican side, interests like the Kochs have succsessfully roiled up the populace in grass-roots, god-bothering/freedom movements that have no purpose to serve these people, other than to feed their need to rage, while simultaneously and secretly undermining their lives and giving them reason to rage.
We like the “juice”, we crave the juice – be it outrage, or victory, or righteousness. There is not much juice in wise policy or administration. For me, that played out on a smaller scale here among the Juicetariat on the Malheur situation. Lots of folks opining, and wanting ACTION and JUSTICE and the drama that comes with that. The feds and local law enforcement whose job it was to handle this situation did not feel that same desire for drama. It was their job to dial it down a notch or three, and resolve the situation. And so they have.
That’s why – although I’d vote for Bernie if he got the nom – I prefer Hillary. She’s neither exciting nor inspirational. At this point – after all that she has been through – she understands (as Obama has come to do) the value of incremental changes. Whenever I hear her speak, I don’t feel inspired, but I do feel confident of her wisdom and wonkiness and how very,very seriously she would carry the mantle of being the first female president of the US. Kind of like Obama being the first black president.
I don’t feel that Bernie is the total package. As much as I admire Elizabeth Warren, she would not have been the total package either. They are kind of one trick ponies; their economic messages are vital, but there is more to that in being president.
Hillary is a stone realist, and I don’t give a flying fuck how much money she has made from whomever for speaking about stuff she probably wrote about in her books. Don’t need the transcript of the speeches, either.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@p.a.: I wouldn’t give them all the credit, it’s part of the electoral cycle. The party holding the White House loses big during midterms. Everyone, from FDR to Reagoon. Even someone has non-controversial and well liked as Eisenhower lost a whopping 14 senate seats and 49 House seats in the 1958 mid term.
rb
@Mike with a mic:
Jeez, never write a sentence where a paragraph will do, eh?
I take your point. I take it. I do. Take it. Barack Obama knows exactly what he’s doing.
burnspbesq
O/T: God has shown once again that She loves Cole, for She has given him a steady supply of low-hanging fruit.
Camille Paglia is back at Salon.
mmeep
@redshirt:
Says it all, thanks. My thoughts all the time.
beltane
@redshirt: I’m seeing too many lifelong Dems in my acquaintance showing an interest in Donald Trump. These are all people in their 40s who have not done as well as their parents and are really struggling. Support for Hillary rises along with income in my circle of acquaintances. I am not friends with too many Republicans so I have no idea what goes through their minds at all. Their is a lot of despair and hopelessness out there and the best we can hope for with Hillary is that things get worse less quickly than with a Republican.
Technocrat
@Steve Crickmore:
I suspect it was a tough decision. Can you imagine what would have happened if that team had been captured and killed on TV? Good god.
A botched commando raid helped torpedo Carter’s presidency.
@Just Some Fuckhead:
See, this is the type of incisive investigative reporting my nonexistent publication needs.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
I’m watching “Top Hat” on TCM for the very first time and Ginger Rogers is amazing.
Now I see what Ann Richards was talking about.
David M
@beltane:
I know memories are short, but don’t we remember 2005 even? She was in congress when Bush was pushing to privatize social security and I don’t remember her supporting it. Given how the roundly it was rejected by the 2005 Democratic Party that was to the right of today’s Democratic Party, it seems like a nonsensical worry.
Seebach
@beltane: I’ve thought Trump was a too easily dismissed threat back in 2012 when I thought he was a risk for beating Romney. That was overblown but I may have just been ahead of the times. He’s a very dangerous threat and someone has to beat him, whether Clinton or Sanders. I always assumed Clinton was more electable but she cannot fuck this election up. Absolutely zero room for error.
beltane
@burnspbesq:The lack of potential candidates is even more depressing.
gwangung
@mike in dc: Hm. If a Castro or Booker is VP, then, yes. All these candidates were a bit young for this cycle, but could be ready in the future.
However, that assumes normal development. Could help to have a few more candidates who could take a big step upwards in a few years.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@jl: Don’t you people in San Francisco stay up late?
Pooped from Super Bowl festivities, perhaps?
taiko
In my humble opinion, Hillary handed Bernie his ass, repeatedly, and that was before they got into foreign policy. It was just embarrassing after that. The man couldn’t let a statement by her go – wagging his finger around EVERY EFFING TIME before she could finish speaking… I’m sympathetic with his views, but Christ, man, know when to let it go! His optics were terrible, his voice worse, his interruptions truly aggravating, and then, having blocked the natural flow of the debate, he resorted to repeating the exact same talking points he’d just made! We know, Bernie, for dog’s sake! You just said it. Now answer the question, please! He’s opening himself up to a Marco Rubio-Christie level of mockery. I really couldn’t believe how bad this was for him, even as it was happening. Watched on PBS, for what it’s worth. I’m REALLY disappointed in his performance tonight, given there’s a non-zero chance he could win the nomination. If he were to repeat this performance on a truly national stage in the general, liberals would be well and truly fvcked for another generation.
Mike J
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Everything Edmund Hillary did, Tenzing Norgay did backwards and in high heels.
jsrtheta
@Parmenides: What you are almost saying is what Trump says – I’ll just appoint great people, the best, and it’ll be great. Sorry, foreign policy is much more important than that, and, this year, will be a prime issue for voters. Bernie’s cluelessness would be no match, as a vote-getter, for Trump’s (or Cruz’s, or, etc.) bloodthirsty oversimplification, xenophobia, and rabble-rousing. And if you think a New York Jewish socialist can win, then you are quite naive. Most of the country is not Vermont. Or even New Hampshire. Sanders would make even a blue state like Illinois prime for the poachin’.
beltane
@David M: She was planning on running for President then. No way was she going to follow Bush in that particular folly. As president dealing with a Republican Congress, I’m not so sure.
@Seebach: Trump is an utter clown running an expansionist campaign promising to do big things for people. He is a clown but not an idiot and he did extremely well with first time voters in NH, older blue-collar people who never bothered to vote before.If he gets the nomination and does this in places like Ohio, there could be problems. He should not be underestimated.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Technocrat: We need to talk. I think we can do something. I’ll be around in a newer thread tomorrow.
amk
donald dreck has got the ‘angry white voters’ (fuck’em) base covered. At least for the moment. Don’t see how sanders gets them in GE if dreck is the candie.
burnspbesq
@rb:
I understand the point he/she is trying to make, but find it invalid, for the following reason.
Clinton was a Senator from New York. The financial industries are the primary economic engine of New York state, and the primary source of campaign contributions. If the CEO of Goldman, or New York Life, or Ernst & Young wants to talk, you listen respectfully and take notes, even if you have no intention of doing what they ask. Clinton can’t be given credit for Dodd/Frank, or for the nominations of Preet Bharara or Mary Jo White, but there are no black marks on her record in terms of financial regulation. Trying to blame her for failing, as First Lady, to block the dismantling of Glass-Stegall, is both stupid and silly. One could, I suppose, argue that the didn’t push hard enough to make Sarbanes-Oxley a better bill, but neither did Biden or Sanders.
beltane
Our Dear Leader agrees with me:
Seebach
@beltane: I honestly thought this would be Cruz’s year, but I underestimated how much everyone hates him. I didn’t know there was a Republican that could be too hated, I assumed they naturally went for assholes. And I guess Trump proves they do! But I would have lost money on betting Cruz.
Never underestimate how terrible America is. Trump is dangerous.
David M
@beltane:
That’s just unhinged from anything close to reality. Perhaps you haven’t been paying attention, but part of the reason Trump is successful is his willingness to defend Social Security and Medicare. The idea that Hillary Clinton or any Democratic President is going to cut Social Security is just not a realistic concern.
Kropadope
@beltane:
When I asked my friend last night if he was voting for anyone in the primaries, he said he wanted to vote for Donald Trump. This is a guy who, the only times he ever got political, it was pro-union work or wishing the government would more seriously consider gun legislation. Then he asked me about the registration deadline, which he had missed. C’est la vie.
He asked who I was voting for and I told him Bernie. His response, “That loser….I don’t even know who that is.”
VFX Lurker
@Steve in the ATL:
My guess is that folks are posting links to Balloon-Juice on other websites, attracting outside interests.
gwangung
@beltane: And that’s a GOOD thing?? You oughta feel nervous….
benw
@Mike J: that is a great comment. I just thought you should know that.
beltane
@Seebach: A couple of years ago a book came out describing the rise of Berlusconi in Italy and how it was a warning to the rest of the western democracies. Right-populism is on the ascendancy right now. There is absolutely no reason to think it can’t happen here.
Cruz can’t win against Hillary, Trump might.
Bob In Portland
@kped: Her husband appointed a lot of pretty weak tea to the various federal labor boards. In 2008 the national officers of my union fanned out to drum up support for Hillary. I’d say that eighty percent of our members went for Obama in the primary, but then we a fairly radical branch.
Seebach
@beltane: As an older millennial, perhaps the oldest(?) late Gen-X? I don’t think I’ve seen America make a good decision in my entire adult lifetime (Turned 18 on election day of 2000. Voted for Nader in Texas, still feel guilty). I don’t know why it would all of a sudden start making smart decisions now.
beltane
@gwangung: Hillary has survived because she practices the politics of expediency. It wouldn’t be called privatization, but some pleasing sounding jargon. Most people here will support it.
beltane
@Seebach: 2008 was the exception to that rule for me.
Seebach
@beltane: Obama was the right decision in that case. But we were coming off the Bush years and the GOP Vice President was Sarah Palin. There are some decisions even the most short-sighted, self destructive, selfish, morally bankrupt nation won’t make.
David M
@beltane:
If that were true, Bernie Sanders would have no chance in the primary. Worrying about a Democrat privatizing social security is a sign someone fundamentally does not understand the current political environment.
Adam L Silverman
@mike in dc: No, he’s a war baby. There’s a difference.
divF
@Suzanne:
I had dinner with a fashionista / Bernista friend in a restaurant with the debate on the television. His two comments:
“I know this is politically incorrect, but Hillary looks really good !”
“I’m glad to see someone took Bernie out and bought him a decent suit.”
feebog
@beltane:
Cruz can’t win against Hillary, Trump might.
Uh, no. Why do you think the Republican establishment types are crapping their drawers at the thought of either Cruz or Trump? Cruz won’t tack to the middle if he wins the nomination. He is a true believer and his supporters are itching to get a “true conservative” as the nominee. Trump is undisciplined and has no filter. That 35 percent of Republican voters may like the red meat he is throwing out, but it is not going to play for the rest of the country. They both lose to Clinton or Sanders. Sanders polls better now because he has not been slimed. Clinton has endured 25 years of conservative dirty tricks and mudslinging and is still standing. If you doubt her ability to withstand the bullshit I suggest you watch the 11 hours of testimony before the Trey Gowdy’s dog and pony show. Clinton will win every state Obama won in 2012, and possibly NC as well.
Leave a Reply
seaboogie
@beltane:
I don’t believe that for even one moment, on the SS front. Are you possibly influenced by the rural white folks around you (that you mentioned) who hate her? I do not understand the reasons for the hate. Not partial, I get. Hate, I do not understand.
And also – nobody here would support that.
Mr. Happy
Bernie wasn’t even able to win in Iowa.
He
is
toast
magurakurin
@Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus:
There are 46 members of the CBC. All are super delegates, so there won’t ever be a “CBC endorsement” as a whole. Of the 46, 3 are Republicans. Of the remaining 43 Democrats 36 have endorsed Clinton and Clyburn in South Carolina is deciding whether he should endorse her before or after the primary, but he will endorse. Ellison has endorsed Sanders and he is the one most angry about the PAC’s official endorsement. Lee in California isn’t happy as well, but she hasn’t endorsed. It seems like she feels it is too early and being that California is in June, in her case it is probably true.
But the long and short of it, the CBC has almost unanimously endorsed Hillary Clinton. There is no controversy at all of the CBC PAC making an official announcement of its endorsement.
Adam L Silverman
@Steve Crickmore: Actually it was. This is not a defense of Secretary Clinton’s debate remarks, but had the decision to go after him resulted in an operational failure, there would have been serious repercussions. At the very least President Obama would have been a one term president. Everyone involved with the decision would be out of there appointed positions and in the case of Secretary Clinton it would become disqualifying for any future elected position.
Remember what happened with Operation Eagle Claw (Desert One). Each Services Special Forces had to be involved. Each Service refused to compromise and use one communication package, transportation platform, etc. Each Service and their SF had to have a piece of the glory. And when the fog and friction of war hit in the form of mechanical failure and bad weather the mission failed because spare parts from the undamaged aviation platforms was inoperable on the damaged one. Despite the fact that this was failure by a committee of senior uniformed personnel in the SOF communities and their Services’ Chiefs, President Carter quickly and publicly took responsibility. While that wasn’t the only reason he wasn’t reelected, it contributed greatly to the portrait being painted of him as ineffective. And many of his senior advisors on this decision had their careers ended as a result. It also led to the creation of US Special Operations Command to keep the Services and their SOF components from every creating this type of dysfunction ever again.
Adam L Silverman
@RandomMonster: like that stops anyone else?
kc
@Cacti:
Really ? You must have been ecstatic when Clinton condemned Obama’s pastor.
Ken
@Steve Crickmore: So why did Sanders vote yes on Hillary for Secretary of State? I feel at that moment, Obama told everyone on the left to get over the fact that she voted for the war. Obama crushed her for that vote and then turned to us and said “I forgive and have moved on.”
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Hillary really screwed up when she strangled those puppies on stage at the debate.
That’s got to hurt her with the doggie vote.
Though she could win over some of the puddy tat vote.
mclaren
Because you’re rich and fat and happy, Cole. The 80% of Americans who aren’t rich and, unlike the Balloon-Juice commentariat, don’t sleep on $2000 mattresses with $80 pillows after eating steak tacos, are sick of it. Enough. Up against the wall!
Anne Laurie
@Steve in the ATL:
FDL’s gone, and I’m told that the banhammer is back at Daily Kos. The Purity Pony Party members have to go somewhere to vent, and this week seems to be our turn in the barrel.
gwangung
Which shows why Obama is superior to 99.9% of us bozos around here and was a once in a lifetime president.
Doug R
@Just Some Fuckhead: Oh great, a Baud birther.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@beltane:
What hope does Sanders offer? You think granny-starver Paul Ryan will give him a blank check for free college? You think The Turtle is going to give him 60 votes to break up banks?
Why not promise Free lifetime supply of Tacos and Free Cars.
It’s as realistic as promising to deport 15 million mexicans and building a giant wall with a luxurious, classy, beautiful door that mexico will pay for.
Citizen Alan
@Gin & Tonic:
The Kissinger thing probably won’t be a factor in my own calculations, but it was such an odd little own goal, wasn’t it. I mean, is there a figure still active in American politics more loathed than Henry Kissinger? It was almost on par with publicly accepting praise from Dick Cheney.
Ripley
The Taco Primaries continue apace.
The revolution will not be telemarketed!
Just Some Fuckhead
@gwangung: Holy Jesus, gwangung. That actually never happened. What happened was that HRC made a deal to not contest the primary at the convention (remember Florida and Michigan?) in exchange for Sec State and paying off her campaign debt.
Do you seriously think Obama would have picked her for the job under any other circumstances? Why would he do that to himself? Why would he put a lightning rod for Republican abuse in the premier role of his administration?
Just Some Fuckhead
@kc:
That’s who she is. She will say or do anything for political expediency. As a Clinton supporter, this, to me, is her second-worst trait. Look at all the softballs they’ve thrown at Bernie Sanders trying to get him to exploit one of the many pseudo-scandals surrounding her. But he’s actually a decent human being and so he’s pushed back and said loudly, “No, I won’t go there.”
Hell, even when he was knocking her on Kissinger, he noted that her book was very good.
dianne
I’m worried that the fall off in voting in the midterms will happen in the GE if Bernie isn’t the nominee. I’m for whomever our party nominates (yellow dog, me) but the younger kids may not be so pragmatic.Even my husband’s union is saying vote for whichever candidate you choose in the primary but as always vote for our party’s candidate in the GE.I like Bernie and think he has done a good job in moving the party left but will support Hillary.I can’t watch the debates – the yelling makes me cringe. I read what they have said the next day and both sides sound fine and sensible. It’s the speaking voices of politicians that always leave me cold, even our own.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Just Some Fuckhead: That’s just not true. She was offered the job and she turned it down. He had to lobby her to accept it.
First there was nothing to contest. She conceded the nomination 1 day after the primaries ended after a congressional delegation led by Clinton supporter Charlie Rangel publicly demanded her concession.
Surely you remember the big freak out by the Clinton campaign just before the convention when it was revealed that she wasn’t even vetted for the veep spot. They don’t throw that public freak out if a deal had been made for another position.
Moreover:
If you have a source saying otherwise, link to it.
Another Holocene Human
1) Holder’s DOJ was full of Liberty/Dubya trash, he STUFFED the department full of shitweasels so Dems who followed wouldn’t be able to do their job. Holder and Obama made a decision not to do a purge, probably the right decision but it sucked short term.
2) Holder totally attempted to take on Wall Street anyway but when they went to trial it all went to hell because just about every shitty thing had been made legal and what was illegal was so technical that a jury of non-Wall St-peers couldn’t actually follow the case and wouldn’t convict.
That’s what actually happened, but go on calling Eric Holder names.
Another Holocene Human
@David M:
Indeed. That’s Cory B00ker libel. (If you were wondering why Senator Superhero wasn’t running, that’s, uh, why.)
Another Holocene Human
@PhoenixRising:
Tearing down is easy. Building is hard. This worker knows how hard. Try harder, Bernie, because you’re not convincing me with this weak shit.
qwerty42
@Mike with a mic: … She is Kissinger ++ and more pro Wall Street than any politician out there. Voting for her is voting for Wall Street and Kissinger. …
Do you, by any chance remember when Kissinger was SOS? Because I do. There was a GD war going on; ~1/2 million troops in Viet Nam and Cambodia. And she is “Kissinger ++”? Really? Wow. How extensively have you studied American foreign policy since WW2? A “whole lot”? You saw LeCarre’s “Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy” on teevee, so are pretty much up on that whole “Cold War” thing?
Moving from “Kissinger, “…more pro Wall Street than any politician out there…” Really? So, these guys are really her minions? Behind the scenes, she’s working with bankers, Wall Street, and munitions makers and … I dunno … Cobra Commander? to destroy the country? I don’t doubt she has been friendlier to Wall Street than Bernie, but wouldn’t that follow if he is a Democratic Socialist? I assume you’ve carefully studied her policy papers to come to that conclusion, but I’m not actually seeing it.
Cripes, there are enough of the florid accusations from the “conservatives” (Did you know Hillary was a traitor?) we don’t really need it on our side too.
But yes. It’s a political campaign; everyone gets a bit more carried away than they think. You and me included. Bernie seems to be a good guy and would be a good president. But everything has not come down to economics, although that was the old Socialist belief.
C.V. Danes
On this I have to disagree. Obama could have commissioned a Pecora-style commission once things stabilized a bit and used the resulting outrage to push through real reform. But it was apparant from the start that his goal was to preserve the system instead of reform it.
As for the Bush era war crimes, there definitely should have been some prosecutions there, and remember that Obama’s administration fought tooth and nail to try and keep Pelosi from releasing her torture report. You can’t say that you’re against torture and then fail to prosecute those who engaged in it.
ChristianPinko
@Mike with a mic: Nonsense. Clinton is less supportive of Wall Street than any Republican with the possible exception of Trump, who’s unacceptable for a host of other reasons.
For the record, here’s a link comparing how much money Clinton takes from Wall Street, compared with other candidates.
ChristianPinko
@Just Some Fuckhead: See, this is a big reason why I prefer Clinton. You must be willing to get your hands dirty if you’re going to work in politics, and i think that in the general, Sanders’s unwillingness to go for the low blow would doom him.
Applejinx
Regarding Clinton, Wall Street, and privatizing Social Security, I think Hillary believes the hugest megabanks, investment firms, and corporations, are job creators and bringers of great wealth to the country (underscored by her personal experience with them).
Therefore her job is to regulate them, but not too rigidly, so they grow even bigger and consolidate even more but stay on the right side of the Force she spoke of. Therefore, the economy grows even bigger and everything becomes okay.
I don’t think her personal experience suggests to her that Goldman Sachs and their ilk are a vampire squid with no loyalty to the country, pursuing a self-destructive and rigged game that ends in devastating repeated crashes for very obvious reasons because what they pursue CAN’T be shared: it’s winner takes all, furthermore winner takes that all to the Caymans and there’s no investment because that would be stupid, there’s nothing to invest in that can stand against the vampire squid. Game over.
I DO think her personal experience suggests Goldman Sachs and Wall Street have to be protected and fed because otherwise confidence would flag and they’ll crash. I think she sees that as her job and it’s done via discipline and scolding them so they don’t do excessively stupid/greedy things.
I don’t think Hillary believes Wall Street is a failed system in a death spiral.
I do.
DCF
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Sanders Tells Clinton: ‘Destructive’ Henry Kissinger ‘No Friend of Mine’
“Count me in as someone who will not be listening[…] to one of the most destructive secretaries of state in the modern history of this country.”
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02/12/sanders-tells-clinton-destructive-henry-kissinger-no-friend-mine
Steve Crickmore
@Adam L Silverman: The two missions were entirely different in terms of degree of danger. The home and place where bin Laden had been hiding was located in the comfortable middle class Bilal Town neighborhood of Abbottabad. Bin Laden was at the location upwards of five or six years. It is less than 0.6 miles (1 km) away from the Pakistan Military Academy at Kakul — the country’s equivalent of West Point, which has many ties with the Pentagon. Pakistan, where the Seal helicopters had to fly over is considered our friendliest ally in the region, (in particular with regard to the pursuit of Bin laden) the recepient of billions of dollars of American military aid. including American officer traning at Kakul not exactly in the middle of a inhospitable desert of a sworn hostile enemy to America, Iran as occurred in Operation Eagle Claw.
StellaB
@seaboogie: Thank you!
different-church-lady
All I had to do was read the last few comments to see that, as usual, we’re quite squarely in the center of Cartoon Villain-land.
different-church-lady
@gwangung:
I don’t understand how Obama can be superior to me when I have such a firm understanding of what he’s doing wrong.
[nods]
Adam L Silverman
@Another Holocene Human: Not just DOJ. The Bush 43 Administration allowed VP Cheney to pack his proteges throughout the Executive Branch agencies and departments. They did this by creative use of non-competitive civil service appointments, using term limited Title 5 appointments and temporary civil service appointments under the Intergovernmental Personnel Act. They took advantage of the fact that either of these term limited/temporary civil service appointments, intended to bring subject matter experts into government service quickly to address existing shortfalls of expertise, allow for exemptions to policy and for these positions to be converted to permanent civil service positions. For Intergovernmental Personnel Appointees (IPAs) all that has to be done is check one of two boxes on the Official Form (OF) 69/Civilian Mobilization Orders. One box requires a civil service appointment at least as long as the term limited appointment and the other allows for the term limited appointment to be directly converted to a regular civil service one if deemed necessary. Once these happened, and there are similar exemptions for term limited Title 5 civil servants, and the person in the job made it through the civil service probationary period, they were vested. And it is very, very hard to remove fully vested civil servants. The intention was to leave ideologically driven personnel land mines throughout the civil service at significantly high enough levels to make every successive administration’s policies Bush/Cheney policies.
Adam L Silverman
@Steve Crickmore: You’ve missed the point. It isn’t that this was a safer and easier mission or that because we now have SOCOM the President didn’t have to worry about inter Service rivalries. The operational context matters very little. Had something gone very wrong the fallout would have been devastating. And that is because the fallout is political.
singfoom
@Another Holocene Human: Can you point me towards the fraud cases that Holder’s DOJ attempted to pursue against any of the large financial firms?
I’ll be honest, I’m kind of a one issue voter about this as I think the 2008 financial crash and not properly prosecuting the crimes was a huge mistake on the Obama administrations part and the one thing I’m disappointed about that administration heavily.
There was clear fraud by Moodys and all the rating agencies and then by the financial firms shorting their own derivatives while they continued to sell the MBS CDOs (and other vehicles) to their clients.
Yes, the banks paid fines (more recently), but no one was ever prosecuted as an individual for fraud nor do I remember any charges even being filed.
EDIT: It’s this kind of shit that drives people bonkers Goldman Sachs fine
Civil charges, no wrong doing, no person held liable…drives me nuts
Cheers
Paul in KY
@Technocrat: Yeah, and a whole 10 or 20 out of 5000 or more.
Paul in KY
@jl: The Gore Team did not do a very good job of pointing out all the lying Dubya & his goons were doing.
Edit: Cause the media sure as fuck wasn’t going to do that.
Paul in KY
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Good point on media despising VP Gore.
Paul in KY
@Seebach: Darth Creepo hasn’t lost yet…
Paul in KY
@Seebach: That’s a good epitaph for the Alaskan Grifter
Paul in KY
@Citizen Alan: Should be loathed by all decent Americans. The Republicans love him.
Raven Onthill
“When your opponent is complaining about a low blow, redfaced, and sputtering, and you’re sitting there with a smile on your face and a crowd cheering, it’s pretty clear who won. ”
And this is different from a Trump rally how?
“I think they are talking about prosecutions for misconduct and clawbacks. Obama and Holder didn’t do that, and I don’t hold it against them one bit. I wish they had, but they made the calculation, much like prosecuting the Bush war crimes, that it would get nowhere, grind the entire country to a halt (moreso even than what happened) and that it would be a disaster in at time where there needed to be action..”
And the people who looted the savings of the US middle class, and put thousands of them out of their homes, still have their positions. Most of them are even richer. The war criminals are out, waiting their turn; if the Republicans win the Presidency they will be making policy again, killing hundreds of thousands.
The election of Hillary Clinton, which I regard as likely, will seal the surrender of the Democrats to the big money and the hawks. Seriously, does anyone believe she will act against the bankers, who are her social circle? Her daughter, even, is married to one — a powerful conflict of interest. And her bellicosity is well known.
I wish you leaders worthy of your loyalty.
DCF
@Raven Onthill:
Well said, Raven O….particularly the last line of your comment…Montreal is looking more attractive all the time….