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You are here: Home / Politics / Politicans / Bernie Sanders 2016 / Welcome to the ThunderDEM: Clinton vs. Sanders (Open Thread)

Welcome to the ThunderDEM: Clinton vs. Sanders (Open Thread)

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Bernie & Hillary

I’m going to watch as much of the debate as I can, but I took your warnings to heart on the dangers of NyQuil and created my own cough and cold elixir (whiskey, honey and lemon), so I’ll probably be drooling on the sofa cushion by 9:20 Eastern.

Hope the candidates keep it positive and discuss the merits of their policies and strategies rather than satisfying the media’s prurient demand for a KONG-frontation. Ha, I know — fat fucking chance.

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

391Comments

  3. 3.

    max

    but I took your warnings to heart on the dangers of NyQuil and created my own cough and cold elixir (whiskey, honey and lemon), so I’ll probably be drooling on the sofa cushion by 9:20 Eastern.

    Are you sick? I am personally tired of illness, as this has been going for a month and a half.

    max
    [‘Whatsit wut Nyquil huh?’]

  5. 5.

    max

    @Tegdirb: Mom and Dad are fighting again.

    Grandma and Granddad are fighting again.

    max
    [‘Well, what about that time in ’73 that you said…’]

  6. 6.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    probably be drooling on the sofa cushion

    Donald Trump did that at one of the debates and his polling jumped 10 points.

  7. 7.

    redshirt

    redshirts 4 tips to never getting sick:
    1. Train yourself never to touch your eyes, nose, ears or mouth unless your hands are sterile.
    2. In the event you feel a sickness coming on, immediately:
    A. Drink hard alcohol or swish mouthwash or both; inhale alcohol fumes
    B. Exercise in some fashion. Or go in a sauna. Get hot.
    C. Vitamin C doses.
    3. Eat a lot of yogurt.
    4. Wash everything you eat thoroughly and be sure to clean cutting boards!

  9. 9.

    max

    @Betty Cracker: Morning thread — I was told it’s terrible for the liver.

    Likely no worse than the whisky.

    max
    [‘On the other hand the whisky probably tastes better…wait, what am I saying?’]

  10. 10.

    Mary G

    I haven’t watched any of the Democratic debates. Our primary isn’t until June, so it’s always decided before I vote. I follow you guys. I watch the Republicans for the Lola.

  14. 14.

    PaulW

    Does ANYBODY out there know where the Billie Holiday quote “Don’t threaten me with love, baby” comes from?! It’s not from any of her lyrics… :(

  16. 16.

    khead

    We trapped another kitten today. Pics to come. If Balloon Juice can’t stop arguing I will resort to cat juggling.

  25. 25.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @redshirt: I live by those rules. You should add “Don’t let your sick cat sneeze in your eye”. That one sneaks up on ya.

  30. 30.

    mike in dc

    I think the healthcare thing is a push. Both essentially playing to the people already supporting them. I have no idea which argument is more effective with undecided primary voters.

  31. 31.

    dedc79

    Balloon Juice Madlibs:

    Recently, I was outraged by what [Democratic Candidate’s] supporters said about [Supporter of Opposing Candidate] on [Website/Social Media Platform]

  34. 34.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @khead: The worst part is random anonymous internet commenters breathlessly reporting on the shenanigans of other random anonymous internet commenters.

    As a Clinton supporter, I feel it has the stench of desperation.

  43. 43.

    Baud

    DVR’ing th debate. Will watch if news says one or both of the candidates forcibly shaved Wolf Blitzer’s beard.

  44. 44.

    Nate Dawg

    “You’re not in the White House yet”. Bernie sounded like a little bitch for a second there.

  45. 45.

    MomSense

    Thank you HRC for pointing out the obvious problem with Sanders’ free tuition plan–all the fucking state governors and legislatures that will block it.

    See the medicaid gap and that is a life and death issue. Again, I agree with the value of free higher education–but the means to achieve it is not going to work.

  49. 49.

    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)

    Isn’t about time that the trolls crawl out from under their bridges and pretend to be supporters of one or the other? They can then say insulting things about the other & start @dedc79:’s madlibs

  50. 50.

    Elie

    @Betty Cracker:

    Regular Nyquil has Tylenol in it which is very toxic to the liver at surprising low levels. Nyquil however now makes a sleep aid called Nyquil ZzzZ which does not contain Tylenol but instead an antihistamine and is therefore safe for the liver…

  52. 52.

    mike in dc

    This is lower key than the last one. Less of a knife fight and more taking potshots at a safe remove.

  58. 58.

    catclub

    @schrodinger’s cat: I saw th Flying Karamazov Brothers ( well, one of them) juggle two cats named Wow and Flutter. They were large and relaxed kitties. We suspected they had been where the brothers had been smoking.

    I guess mid- 1980’s Seattle.

  59. 59.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I think someone told Bernie not to yell in this debate. Or they turned up his hearing aid.

  60. 60.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I can’r believe they’re recycling Big Government. We’re finally having a liberal debate and media are pulling us back to 1993.

    Obama would have said “I won’t relitigate that, Gwen. We have government. Get with it” :)

  61. 61.

    Renie

    Can JEB? be any dumber? First he drags his mother out now Dubya is coming out in SC. JEB? just doesn’t want to win this.

  62. 62.

    Jim, Foolish LIteralist

    OT: meanwhile on MSNBC, Jeb Bush without a trace of self-awareness announces that being born to the Pierce-Walker-Bush clan (of Greenwich, Walker’s Point and electorally convenient spots) is “winning the lottery”

  63. 63.

    NotMax

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Not Somalia in its entirety.

    Somaliland remains stable* (both politically and economically) and, to a lesser extent, Punt.

    *Although denied the independence they have long sought.

  64. 64.

    mike in dc

    So they asked the potentially-first-ever-Jewish-President how he feels about “thwarting history”. Ugh.

  67. 67.

    Nate Dawg

    I’m wondering if Nevada is going to be a lot closer than previously thought, based on the HRC expectation spinning.

    Western caucuses were Obama’s bread and butter in 2008….

  68. 68.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: Obama?

    And yes, it’s irrational to expect PBS journalists to be any different than other journalists. Socialization is hard to fight.

  69. 69.

    Kay

    @Renie:

    Do you think? I bet Republicans love W in South Carolina. There was real love between GOP voters and Bush. They deny it now but they adored him.

  71. 71.

    Nate Dawg

    Oh yes, let’s field questions from Undecided Voters on Facebook–surely one of the most intelligent groups available.

  72. 72.

    rk

    I went to the guardian live blog on the the debate. The comments are viciously anti Clinton. All I can say is that Bernie supporters are just as loathsome as republicans.

  77. 77.

    kc

    I’ve decided to vote for the candidate who has the least offensive random supporters on the Internet.

    So, Jill Stein it is.

  79. 79.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @rk: So now we’re going overseas to find random anonymous internet commenters to smear Bernie Sanders with? Why?

  80. 80.

    Jay S

    @Anne Laurie: It also causes liver damage by itself if you take more than recommended and it is in a number of different products so it’s easy to end up taking more than you think you are. But alcohol appears to magnify the effect. Here is an FDA pdf that provides an overview of the risk

  81. 81.

    Nate Dawg

    @rk: Funny how Sanders supporters sound like Republicans. Their constant obsession with the Goldman Sachs speeches reminds me of OBAMA’S TRANSCRIPTS AND BIRTH CERTIFICATE@!%!%!@$@#$@ crap we heard for 8 years.

  84. 84.

    MomSense

    @NotMax:

    Especially after they increased the dosage in order to market the extra-strength label. People still take two even though they really shouldn’t.

  85. 85.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    Modern Republicans choose to debate questions posed by Fox News – why do Democrats choose the village? Let ’em answer questions from Cole, Betty, and Adam!

  86. 86.

    WarMunchkin

    Honestly, debates seem to be utterly toxic for civic life. And I mean that going all the way back to Kennedy-Nixon at the very least.

    That said, in this debate, I can salvage the reason why I’m going to be voting for Hillary (unless the race is over by then) despite her insularity and despite the fact that Sanders actually tries to articulate a liberal vision for the country – she’s just flat out smarter. On all of these issues, she’s engaged about the details. She’s wrong on some of them, and I disagree with her on ideology (death penalty in 2016? seriously?), but she actually gives a shit about the details, while Sanders just phones it in. Even Obama didn’t care about the details as much as Clinton does back in 2008 – of course, he was Barack Obama, so.

  88. 88.

    mike in dc

    Short of deporting hard-core racists, I don’t see how a POTUS improves race relations directly. Indirectly, by cleaning out the systemic racism in law enforcement/criminal justice, housing, etc., they can. But racists gonna race.

  89. 89.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    They did something to NyQuil to take the awesome sleepy time out of it. I heard the good stuff was behind the counter at the drug store but I never think to ask when I’m there.

  90. 90.

    Elie

    @MomSense:

    And yeah, the damage to the liver can be profound with only one remedy — transplant. They are trying to decrease the medications that contain acetaminophen but a lot of folks are not aware.

  91. 91.

    redshirt

    I’ve been done with all acetaminophen products long ago. Why the hell would you take it any time given the possible side effects and the numerous alternatives?

  96. 96.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    @kc: Odds are, Stein’s going to get a bunch of new ex-bernie bro supporters after the Democratic convention.

  97. 97.

    Nate Dawg

    @mike in dc: I love how the moderators believe in a “Magic Wand” for race relations.

    Let’s talk reality. Loretta Lynch is suing Flint, Michigan for poisoning the water. That is a real action that is happening because Barack Obama is President.

    That is what happens. Not magic wands making race relations better. Making a real world difference for people of color.

  103. 103.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @WarMunchkin: Jimmy Carter was a maven for the details too. At the executive level vision matters a lot more than the details. I’m sure Hillary Clinton will be a competent leader either way.

  106. 106.

    Elie

    Oh Bernie got away with one: He said that race relations would be better than in the Obama administration because he would make more jobs…

    Honestly, Hillary should have taken his head off with a bunch of questions about how Messiah Bernie would bring that about…

  107. 107.

    rk

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    It’s the Guardian’s US website and it’s live blogging the debate. How does it smear Bernie Sanders if his supporters act like a bunch of jackasses. Actually any site I go to, people who support him talk in the most disgusting way about Hillary. I’m actually beginning to believe that it’s right wingers posing as Bernie supporters. Either that, or most rational people don’t comment online.

  110. 110.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Technocrat:

    I suspect it fooled the cold virus into thinking it’s host was dead.

    That was one of the most awesome things I’ve read on this blog.

  111. 111.

    Barbara

    @Nate Dawg: And she is suing Ferguson after the city council refused to accept the settlement agreement that would, among other things, provide that police cannot stop people without probable cause. They would rather spend millions to litigate.

  116. 116.

    Elie

    @rk:

    Yes, that is called RATFUCKING…

    Also applies to all those little small dollar contributions — also…

  122. 122.

    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)

    @efgoldman:

    My gastro-enterologist got me off of naproxyn right away. He’s got me on acetominophen as needed, but limited it to 1000 mg, 2 times per day.

  124. 124.

    Fair Economist

    @rk: The right wing is putting a lot of effort into getting Bernie nominated. 4 million by Rove’s organization alone in Iowa alone. They really, really want to run against him. We know they hire trolls/sockpuppets so it’s guaranteed that at least some of the obnoxious anti-Hillary types are Republican trolls.

  130. 130.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    @Elie: What’s the unemployment rate down to again? Bernie’s strategy of running against underrated Obama is aggravating, and isn’t going to do him any favors in the Primary (at least I’d like to think so…)

  132. 132.

    Mike J

    @Adam L Silverman:

    that’s easy: anyone ever been to Somalia? Democratic Republic of the Congo? Yemen? Nuff said.

    A great line, but not a good one for a potential president. Better to ask if the questioner had ever been to a country without government without naming names.

  135. 135.

    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)

    @raven:

    Thanks, raven. I hoped to bring it up when I knew you were around, but the time seemed right late last night. Not letting my situation get me down. ;)

  137. 137.

    Kay

    Clinton’s making that immigration bill better than it was. It was “Ted Kennedy’s bill” sure, but it was also “George W Bush’s bill”.

    Kennedy agonized over it. He essentially made a deal with the devil to protect 12 million people who were already here. She’s presenting this as Bernie Sanders opposed a fabulous liberal bill and that isn’t true.

  138. 138.

    Nate Dawg

    Oh God. Ifill asking them how they will make sure Muslims get more food stamps. #slapsforehead

    This is gonna be a weird election.

  140. 140.

    Redshift

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): I am actually somewhat concerned about GOP ratfvcking during the general. While I don’t think the overall animosity is particularly worse than any other primary, I do think the greater pervasiveness of social media compared to 2008 means it will be much easier for them to provoke shitstorms based on disinformation. Not sure what can be done about it, though.

  143. 143.

    Elie

    @Disgruntled former Baud supporter:

    Of course we have to wait and see, but the black people I know (friends and relatives), are quite put off by his tone and attitude. I consider myself to be relatively balanced and certainly can abide balance critique of Obama. But Bernie’s arrogance and idealism mixed with his tone deaf approach relating to this sitting President makes it real hard for me to see him openly. And I fully acknowledge Hillary has problems and faults… I am open to hearing what he has to say — EXCEPT for gratuitous attacks on Mr Obama which make my blood boil….

  148. 148.

    Nate Dawg

    We just saw Bernie shaming Clinton about not signing up for higher taxes. Wow. I just can’t get on the Bernie bandwagon.

  152. 152.

    jl

    @Baud:

    ” Don’t let appearances fool you. They are both the devil. ”

    But any fool can see that Baud! is the devil right off.
    Vote integrity and authenticity, vote Baud! 2016!

  160. 160.

    Raven Onthill

    @Elie: Worse, though, than, say Cornel West?

    And, fergawdsakes, I just found out that Clinton’s son-in-law, Marc Mezvinsky, is a Goldman-Sachs alum and hedge fund manager. Seriously, how can one not see a conflict of interest?

  165. 165.

    magurakurin

    @redshirt:

    redshirts 4 tips to never getting sick:

    All good advice. Another thing that works: stay in a sealed room for weeks and weeks on end watching endless repeats of Ice Station Zebra.

  168. 168.

    jl

    @Baud: Tried CW-consensus centrist pundit assumptions are behind many of the questions.

    But with less spin than usual, so could be interpreted as lobbing big fat ones over the plate for the candidates.

    Format is better than usual, though. I still think both candidates should get more neutral questions and both answer, but this debate is much more even-handed and fair in letting both address same topics as previous ones.

  170. 170.

    Steve from Antioch

    I would much prefer Sanders as president, but I have to say Clinton is crushing him in the debate.

  172. 172.

    Steve from Antioch

    I would very much prefer Sanders as president, but I have to say Clinton is crushing him in the debate.

  173. 173.

    Kay

    @Corner Stone:

    I love how we all pretend immigration bills are all about humanitarian aims. Ted Kennedy was negotiating with Karl Rove and the US Chamber of Commerce and Microsoft. Refugees were not the focus.

    Trade bills too. They’re about collective bargaining and environmental protections. That’s why we have trade deals- to protect workers and oceans and endangered species :)

  177. 177.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    @Corner Stone: Yeah, like with the “race relations” question. How would Hillary be different than Obama in this regard? She can’t exactly answer back, “come on, Judy – I wouldn’t be a pioneering AA president, and racist white people will be less uncomfortable” now, can she?

  179. 179.

    jl

    Neither HRC nor Sanders strong enough on financial reform, IMHO.

    Sanders’ obsession with breaking up the big banks and GS not enough.
    I don’t think shadow banking as easy to effectively regulate as HRC does.
    Need both.

  180. 180.

    Mandalay

    Clinton after getting pounded by Bernie: “Let’s not claim that President Obama….”. Biggest fucking strawman in the history of the world.

    Bernie tells her not to insult our intelligence.

    He’s rag-dolling her on corporate donations.

  182. 182.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Steve from Antioch: It doesn’t matter. These debates don’t help HRC a bit. That’s why they only had a few initially.

    On the other hand, they introduce Sanders to America and normalize the hype about his political views.

  184. 184.

    ? Martin

    @jl: I’m caught between Sanders’s doggedness but overly simplistic solutions, and Clinton’s clearly expert grasp on the complexity of the solutions and uncertainty over whether she’ll see them through.

  186. 186.

    PhoenixRising

    @Disgruntled former Baud supporter: Why can’t she?

    Seriously, why can’t she focus group some truth and come up with something that won’t kill her with white people? The truth is that Obama’s circle of prescribed actions re race is a small one…because he’s black. Just like she has to be careful about how to say she’s leading with solutions that will impact women & children first…

  188. 188.

    Steve from Antioch

    @Just Some Fuckhead:
    You’re probably right about that.

    HRC grasp of the details reminds me of Bill twenty years ago. It has been heartbreaking to see how he has deteriorated in the past few years.

  189. 189.

    Kay

    @MomSense:

    He may have been courting the Latino vote but he was also courting the business lobby vote. It was a bill George W Bush would have signed, so while Kennedy may have sponsored it turning it into this liberal triumph that Sanders thwarted is a stretch.

  190. 190.

    WarMunchkin

    Part of me thinks that Clinton actually doesn’t understand the Wall Street/establishment criticisms. I think this ties very strongly with the second-wave feminism aspect, something like: “How can I be part of the old white male establishment? I’m a woman”. It’s not so much that you’re a cartoon villain taking a bag of money, but the simple fact that when you play well – excel, even – within the system, it just so happens that the people who have your ear are the people with power – which means you lose touch with why you’re in government in the first place and who you’re supposed to be helping. The small compromises you make let you feel better, but small compromises mean big losses for ordinary people, at times.

    And that doesn’t go for Wall Street alone – when you’re in touch with the foreign policy “community”, that means the band of acceptable opinion is whatever’s in vogue there, which may not necessarily be good for the nation as a whole (see War, the Iraq). Same for intelligence and military communities.

  193. 193.

    ? Martin

    @PhoenixRising:

    Seriously, why can’t she focus group some truth and come up with something that won’t kill her with white people?

    She doesn’t need to. There’s no shortage of white people that support civil rights in the general election. Yeah, she can’t win the GOP nomination and she’ll lose the confederacy in the general, but (and don’t tell anyone this) – but she’s not going to win the confederacy no matter what she says.

  195. 195.

    Nate Dawg

    @Socraticsilence: No, I’m all for it. But since we can’t get that through the current Congress, may be not make it a center stone of our platform? Just a thought.

    Feel the Reality.

  197. 197.

    rk

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Most of the Clinton supporters here act like jackasses. How does that reflect on Clinton?

    I don’t know if that’s true about Clinton supporters here since I don’t go through all the comments in every post. But it doesn’t reflect on Clinton at all what her supporters say. I like Bernie and Hillary, though definitely leaning more towards Hillary and vote for her in the primary. Of course for President I’m voting for whoever wins.

  198. 198.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    It was controversial. They made huge concessions. I don’t remember which groups supported or didn’t support, but Sanders mentioned one Latino advocacy group who didn’t. At one point Menendez had a fit and refused to go along because he thought they gave away too much to get GOP votes.

  199. 199.

    jl

    @? Martin: I think people too easily dismiss simple solutions as overly simplistic.

    I think Sanders is simple but effective with his financial transaction tax revenue idea, and breaking up big banks and GS are helpful backstops if HRC shadow banking regulations are outmaneuvered.

    But, sometimes he is overly simplistic, health care plan roll out is example, he paid for that and he should pay for it. (Edit: or he didn’t pay for it, and he should pay for not paying for it,… whatever…)

  200. 200.

    NotMax

    @gogol’s wife

    Just for grins, a picture of Barrymore crying out fo a caption.

    And a bit of fun about William:

    What was the most fun piece of information/trivia you found out about Warren William?

    The love he showed for dogs was simply amazing. Warren and his wife had no kids, and it was clear that their dogs were surrogate children for the couple. During his life he did a LOT of charity work for animal rights, and even donated some of his estate to help those creatures that had given him so much pleasure. The thing that almost everyone else comments on is his amateur inventing career, and the creation of his “rolling apartment” – the panel truck that he personally built and outfitted as one of the earliest recreational vehicles. If there were one other thing I’d like to have that I couldn’t find, it would be some photographs of his motorized brain child. Source

  201. 201.

    Elie

    @PhoenixRising:

    good point.

    This whole issue of racism and what to do about it from various perspectives deserves a different treatment that I can certainly see is necessary…

  208. 208.

    Corner Stone

    @catclub: I don’t know why anyone ever says that. If HRC gets the nom there is zero chance Sanders is anywhere near the ticket. Zero.

  210. 210.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    @PhoenixRising: I meant that Obama, by virtue of being our first black President, made racist white people very uncomfortable, to put it charitablely. Clinton, or any other white President, will “improve race relations” by virtue of being someone who racists will be more comfortable with. Of course, there are plenty of misogynists and anti-semites ready to throw a fit about our next president, so I guess we’d better make “everybody” (who counts) happy and elect a Republican!

  212. 212.

    jl

    @Corner Stone: HRC laying down a history lesson now. I’m interested in how Sanders responds.

    But, then HRC wanders off into foreign policy boilerplate, letting Sanders off the hook.

    OK, now… no,… off to decision on Bin Laden raid

    Kind of unfocused an unsatisfying exchange.

  215. 215.

    Elie

    Hillary missed an opportunity to talk about what it means to accept the responsibility for your bad judgements — and there always are. EVERY President welcomes back body bags and makes deep mistakes. He would be no different. He thinks he would be perfect. would have no mistakes — HUBRIS

  217. 217.

    Kay

    Stops just short of calling Henry Kissinger a war criminal. With the wind up I thought he was going there.

  224. 224.

    Elie

    So Bernie is so perfect he wouldn’t make mistakes or have bad judgements or take bad advice —

    I really cannot stand this man

  225. 225.

    Technocrat

    @WarMunchkin:

    To be fair, the whole “Wall Street Money Is Tainted” thing is a fairly new development. IIRC, it wasn’t a defining issue in 2012, and that was after the crash. In 2008, we were cheering Obama’s huge (and corporate-buttressed) coffers.

  226. 226.

    jl

    Good moderators would be a help here. I think candidates are wandering around trying to score gotchas.

    When would Sanders support and not support regime change, and what would be alternative to HRC’s more regime change friendly approach? And HRC lets Sanders yammer about trade.

    OK: another shot at regime change question, with example of why it is important question for Syria.

  229. 229.

    Mike with a mic

    She will make Kissinger look like a pacifist, Nixon look honest, and Reagan like a friend of the working class. If she’s nominated it will be obvious the true party of Wall Street and the rich is the democrats and that we hate the working class and are the most corrupt party in the us.

  232. 232.

    Barbara

    @Kay: Well, I do remember watching a very large march with mostly Latino participants, across the street from my office, in support of that bill. I also remember the compromises but on balance feeling it was a decent start, and that things being what they are in Congress, no major initiative that is defeated is likely to be resurrected in less than a decade. And here we are, nearly a decade later with no resolution in sight. This is where, for me, Sanders just does not resonate. Yes, you can’t give too much away, but it is easier to push the door open wider once you wedge It open with your foot.

  235. 235.

    MomSense

    @Kay:

    It was controversial. They made huge concessions.

    Just like all legislation dealing with such controversial issues. Some major environmental groups almost walked away from the Clean Air Act because of some of the concessions. Thank goodness they didn’t.

  243. 243.

    WarMunchkin

    @Technocrat:

    In 2008, we were cheering Obama’s huge (and corporate-buttressed) coffers.

    I’ll dispute that – Edwards had raised the issue of public financing way back when. I think two things happened. 1 – Obama got a whole crapton of individual donations through what was then a revolutionary fundraising model, and 2 – he actually was criticized for it. His argument was that he had to sin a little bit to have a shot at changing the finance model. I could be wrong, but I distinctly remember this. He never did that last part though, whether it was thanks to the 60-vote Democratic minority or something else.

    Wish Edwards hadn’t turned out to be such a phenomenal douchebag.

  246. 246.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I like Sanders’ strategy of interrupting Clinton’s answers with wet, rattling coughs.

  249. 249.

    PhoenixRising

    No one wants Henry Kissinger arrested for war crimes against Cambodia more than I do. That said, I think Bernie’s making a mistake suggesting that he should be shunned by DOS. One of the prices we have to pay for continuity for our republic is that we don’t go with doors #3-5 for former officials we have political disagreements with.

    His followup was a killer punch and it hit home: When we had a shitty relationship with China, we had to fear war with 1.2 billion atheist Communists….but at least they weren’t doing our jobs.

    He really is the left’s Trump: It’s all about taking our country back to a time when one person could work hard and support a family in a decent job with a wage that lets the family live in dignity. He’s coming from respect for diverse types of American families, but he appeals to the same instincts that the racist, xenophobic populist on the right does.

    I’m worried.

  250. 250.

    Betty Cracker

    Was that Bernie horking up a lung during Hillary’s soliloquy? He sounds like he has a cold. Poor thing. I sympathize.

  262. 262.

    jl

    I don’t believe HRC cares at all whether working on Iran problems involves discussing normalization or not, or her talk about conditions. i think she needs a difference with Sanders and thinks she needs to sound more CW hawkish on foreign policy.

    If she smelled a deal in the making, those issues would not make a difference.

  265. 265.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @jl: Is Sanders talking about normalization? Cuz if he is it interesting considering his criticism of the Iran deal.

  266. 266.

    Nate Dawg

    Sanders is coughing and rambling all over the place. That Clinton isn’t* squashing him is troubling, yes. But he does tell the left what it wants to hear.

  267. 267.

    Technocrat

    @WarMunchkin:

    I don’t dispute that he was criticized from some quarters, but HOPE! posters and tear-jerking videos would certainly come to define his campaign much more than “42 millionz from Wall Street!”.

    He basically skated on something that would be poison this cycle.

  272. 272.

    Jim, Foolish LIteralist

    @efgoldman: I can’t figure out why, after what we’ve seen over the last seven plus years, people are so eager to take Sanders out of the Senate. It matters.

  273. 273.

    Kay

    @MomSense:

    Okay, but that can’t be the rule. Anything is better than nothing can’t be the rule. All compromises and trade-offs are not equal. They have to have places they can’t go, things they won’t trade. Watching the immigration bill process I felt that it had the momentum that negotiations get where everyone wants it so bad they sometimes give away too much. It’s understandable. They do a ton of work and it’s within reach. But it’s also dangerous, because you can convince yourself reaching the result is the goal and it’s not.

    Compromise is important to me in politicians but I also want someone who has the ability to walk away. I know Hillary Clinton can compromise and get things done. What I don’t know is where she won’t go.

  276. 276.

    CaseyL

    Not watching the debate. It’s more enjoyable following the debate via everyone’s comments here.

    Interesting news bits today: not only the FBI finally getting the last of the Yeehawdists out of Malheur, but another federal investigation of corruption in the Georgia state prison system has resulted in, like, a zillion arrests. Plus AG Lynch suing Ferguson. Makes me wonder if any more long-term efforts by the Obama Administration to shut down RW horrorshows is coming…

  277. 277.

    redshirt

    @Germy: Clinton-Castro is my dream team, because if successful it means Castro could be President for 8 years from 2024-2032, and by then, hopefully, we’ll have purged most of the insanity from our current politics.

  278. 278.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    @jl: Not as good of a look for her as she and her brain trust think. I want Benghazi hearings Hillary, not picking hairs to sound more hawkish Hillary.

  283. 283.

    jl

    Duel at sundown on main street over Obama leadership!

    Edit: Sanders defends Obama a lot in his stumpers, so he will thunder a big response. But Sanders does need to be more careful how he talks about Obama, which gave HRC this opening. My main problem with this issue is it is a big waste of time.

  286. 286.

    Corner Stone

    Sanders is fucking himself saying this shit about disagreeing with Obama. There is no best context there to come back from.

    BTW – This.Is.Sparta!

  291. 291.

    Nate Dawg

    I just hope we get some awesome oppo research dumping in the South Carolina debate. Rezko slumlord and Board of Walmart level shit-throwing.

    This is weak sauce: I LOVE OBAMAZ MOREEEE.

  294. 294.

    Elie

    @Corner Stone:

    I hear that

    And his statement that he is bringing in new people is pure bullshit. Check the numbers bro. He is under 2008 in both Iowa and NH… his formula requires breaking the record number new people in 2008 and 12 and right now there is no evidence that is happening, no matter what his ego says…

  295. 295.

    Technocrat

    Does this remind anyone else of the Republicans trying to out-Reagan each other?

    Is Obama our Reagan? Inquiring minds want to know.

  297. 297.

    Nate Dawg

    I speak for all gay guys in saying that Castro would definitely turn out the gay vote. And if he wants to turn me out personally, that’s fine too.

  298. 298.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    @CaseyL: America, f- yeah! Can Loretta Lynch stay atty general in the Clinton administration? Oh, wait – that might not be good for “race relations” (is what concern troll Judy Woodruff would be thinking)

  302. 302.

    jl

    @efgoldman: I think odds of Sanders HRC ticket about zero. I think neither would be interested, in addition to possible electoral problems.

    Nice wrap up. I think Sanders and HRC thundered out their main differences in emphasis.

  305. 305.

    Kay

    @Nate Dawg:

    Bernie is getting on my nerves with his outrage every time she attacks him, though. He’s been calling her corrupt for 3 months. She’s allowed to fight back.

  307. 307.

    Jim, Foolish LIteralist

    @efgoldman: Yeah, but… seniority, national profile, start with Warran and maybe Kamala Harris and ?? to start building something like a recognizable progressive coalition in the Senate. ETA: especially with the Coming of the Schemer

    and Sanders seems particularly ill-suited to that bucket of warm spit

  309. 309.

    Nate Dawg

    @Kay: Seriously. “That’s a low blow.” You know what, I want a politician that can give (and take!) low blows. It’s part of the job description.

  310. 310.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Technocrat:

    Is Obama our Reagan? Inquiring minds want to know.

    I think it was childlike worship with Republicans. With Democrats, it’s just a cynical attempt to manipulate the black vote.

  313. 313.

    mike in dc

    And it’s over. Next debate isn’t until March 6th. So it’s all ground game, ads, and campaign appearances from now through the SEC Super Tuesday.

  314. 314.

    Corner Stone

    @Technocrat: There is only one option here, and that is to protect and maybe expand the policy achievements of Obama.
    It’s stupid to say or intimate anything else.

  318. 318.

    RandomMonster

    I’ll vote for either of these two. It makes me happy and proud that the Democratic debates are real and substantive and rational.

  319. 319.

    hilts

    @Kay:

    There’s a big difference here. Sanders is telling the truth about Clinton, while Clinton is spinning bullshit about Sanders.

  320. 320.

    jl

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    ” it’s just a cynical attempt to manipulate the black vote. ”

    How close to hug the incumbent is a delicate dance when same party wants a third term.

    My personal opinion is that you want to run on a good record, but identifying too closely is not inspiring. People (all people) understand that HRC is not Obama, and need to emphasize areas where Obama record is weak and say will do better.

  324. 324.

    RandomMonster

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    With Democrats, it’s just a cynical attempt to manipulate the black vote.

    Huh? I think support of Obama’s achievements is more than just a cynical attempt to manipulate the black vote.

  328. 328.

    David M

    Is there a reason that Sanders candidacy can’t be shortened to this: “hope and change didn’t work for Obama in 2008, so let’s double down on hope and change with Sanders in 2016”?

  330. 330.

    Kay

    @hilts:

    This is going to sound crazy because I’m thrilled that he’s talking about money in politics, but I feel like he hasn’t really made the argument. Obama gave a speech in Illinois where he said politicians are less corrupt in a “blatant” way now and that’s true, but that’s only half the story. Sanders isn’t making the connection I want him to make, that this isn’t about a straight exchange of campaign cash for votes. It’s not about some statutory description of what a SuperPAC is. It’s about buying influence and access- who gets heard and what gets acted upon. He needs a broader definition of “corruption”. The Citizens definition is wrong. It’s too low a bar.

  333. 333.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Do I have to remind everyone (again) we did this same damn thing in 2008 when Obama surrogates and supporters painted HRC and her husband as closet klansmen in an effort to peel off her black support going into South Carolina?

  336. 336.

    Technocrat

    @Corner Stone:

    No, I agree. But the political CW seems to be that Clinton and Sanders are Yin/Yang. How can they be diametrically opposed, and yet similarly aligned with Obama? It irks me slightly, is all.

  338. 338.

    Redshift

    @Kay: Apropos of that, this morning when hardly anyone was around, I posted my favorite Tim Kaine quote from the NoVa Hillary office opening last night:

    I serve on committees with Bernie Sanders. I know Bernie. I love him.I respect him.

    I serve on committees with Ted Cruz. I know him.

  339. 339.

    Elie

    @FlipYrWhig:

    He strikes me as very arrogant and I STILL think that he is too old to do a long campaign of an intense nature and then govern for four years. He comes across as a know it all …

  342. 342.

    jl

    @Kay: Sanders has problems moving past his stump speech presentation of issues (Edit: or he doesn’t think doing so is a good idea). It is frustrating. Neither of them are Obama, which is fine with me as long as they are good enough to get elected in the general.

  344. 344.

    WarMunchkin

    @Kay: So much this.

    It’s about buying influence and access- who gets heard and what gets acted upon.

    I want to go even further and say that it’s not just about money. Part of the erosion of civic life in the U.S. means that elites are basically one big clique, and regular people’s opinions get shut out. That quote someone posted about Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias and Megan McCardle all being friends, man. I think even a more subtle critique of money doesn’t go far enough.

    I like Sanders, but he’s such a phenomenally imperfect messenger for a fundamentally good message.

  349. 349.

    Guachi

    I listen to Sanders and I think “A Noun a Verb and Income Inequality” is not a foreign policy.

    And when your first and basically only foreign policy criticism of her is a vote 14 years ago, it’s a tacit admission her foreign policy has been pretty good the other 13 years. Especially since she ran America’s foreign policy for four of them.

  351. 351.

    Elie

    @Elie:

    I will add that he conveys a sense that things are going to come at him in discreet issues that will have knoweable consequences… that he will have to make no acceptance of equally bad alternatives. He strikes me as incredibly naïve and intellectually unsophisticated given the complexity of the job and world he would be a leader in — not just a back bench dude who can operate on a low level, keeping his own counsel and ideas. This is the BIGS and neither he (no Trump or the other Republicans) have a clue about what that means not just for him, but for us and the effing world! He will not be able to just shoot from the hip and honor every last opinion he has about whatever. He will have to shut up and keep his counsel and accept failure as well in horrible situations that seem to the outside world as having clear black and white outcomes. That he would have been elected as Senator and not even remotely seem to get this is very very concerning to me. He doesn’t get what this burden is going to be at all. At all.

  352. 352.

    Disgruntled former Baud supporter

    @FlipYrWhig: This guy didn’t think much of Bernie’s temperament:

    After discussing his favorite issues — corporations, government reform, health care and the like, I asked about his unwillingness to endorse his fellow progressives. He said it wasn’t his role. I suggested voters might expect him to weigh in. He disagreed, clearly annoyed at the persistent questioning. Finally I suggested that he had a larger moral responsibility to the progressive movement.

    At which point he jumped out of his seat, told me to go f*** myself and stormed out of the edit board meeting.

  358. 358.

    seaboogie

    @CaseyL:

    Not watching the debate. It’s more enjoyable following the debate via everyone’s comments here.

    Me too! I think that the next Dem debate should be moderated by Cole/Cracker/Mayhew and Silverman. Of course, it goes without saying that they will be taking live-blogging questions from commenters.

  359. 359.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Kay: I wonder why Sherrod Brown didn’t run. He seems awesome from this far away. What’s the skinny on him?

  360. 360.

    Socraticsilence

    @Elie:

    There’s a lot of ground between perfect and positively citing Kissinger– put it this way if a Democrat talked about how Dick Cheney praised their foreign policy it’d be a red flag right?

  363. 363.

    Elie

    @Socraticsilence:

    Maybe.

    Are your thoughts absolute in regards to an opinion in a book without a deeper knowledge of the people and all the contexts?

    I wish that I could be so comfortable in my knowledge of the world and of the leaders. Roosevelt sent thousands of Japanese to internment camps. Does that obliterate all the other good he did? How do we weight and judge the acts of complex leaders and the choices they make. Is it black and white in your world?

  367. 367.

    seaboogie

    @Elie: I’m down with that. Hillz is very intelligent, capable, experienced and has dealt with more incoming shit than anyone ever has. And she’s still standing.

  376. 376.

    Elie

    @MomSense:

    Its a sense for the burden of it– not that he would be weighed down to reveal every contingency — but he seems to lack a certain insight about what this will mean. His whole message is incredibly naive– as naïve as Trump’s — he is essentially telling the progressives what they want to hear — that he will be elected and everything will be great and yuge! HIs message, like Trump’s is primarily emotional…

    The more I hear from him the less I can see him being successful. If he is our nominee, I will vote and work for him but with great concern…

  377. 377.

    seaboogie

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I know – me too!!! He’s like (and I apologize in advance for this terrible earworm) the anti-Joe Lieberman. I’ll understand if you pull a double Van Gogh.

    Also loved the “Mother Fuckhead” reference. Not sure what it says about me if I am in a Fuckhead mind meld tonight.

  380. 380.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @seaboogie:

    Not sure what it says about me if I am in a Fuckhead mind meld tonight.

    I’m shocked and horrified. Think of your reputation.

  390. 390.

    Applejinx

    @Disgruntled former Baud supporter: The unemployment rate leaves out people so fucked they needn’t even bother looking for work at this point. It’s the dishonesty thing again: our system is so fundamentally dishonest that you can’t trust things like claimed unemployment rate.

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