The other night I saw the new SI model Ashley Graham on Colbert- she’s the new plus sized model or whatever it is called who is on the cover of the Swimsuit Edition. Since this is a family blog, here’s a picture of her with clothes:
At any rate, during the interview with Colbert, she called herself curvasexalicious or something or the other, and I just thought it was stupid. I don’t know how to articulate what I am saying, but I thought creating another euphemism like that seemed to be counter-productive. I understand what she is trying to do, which is to point out that people with body types other than the skinny waifs you see in the media every day are also sexy and beautiful, but it just seems like it is an end run around what we need to do, which is to detach the concept of pretty from weight size.
Lemme try another stab- I don’t even think she is fat, but by industry standards and the idiotic BMI we use, she is probably considered obese. But what if she is fat, she’s super fucking hot? So what’s wrong with saying I’m fat but I’m good looking and I DGAF?
Am I making any sense whatsoever?
schrodinger's cat
What is DGAF? I wouldn’t call her fat, I would say she is buxom.
LanceThruster
Zaftig.
Weaselone
Don’t give a fvck.
Honus
No, you’re not making sense. If I didn’t know better I’d think you were still drinking. You just big footed a good AL post with one about a curvy chick whose semantics you disdain.
Spring fever. Drive over to Romney in a couple weeks and get some ramps.
Gin & Tonic
@schrodinger’s cat:
I wouldn’t either. You want to see fat, go to Wal-Mart.
smintheus
I’ve been waiting since the ’70s for Swimsuits to become a major league sport. I feel so deceived by SI.
jl
” Am I making any sense whatsoever? ”
IMHO, No. But good try.”Fat’ is insulting and does not seem accurate in this case.
I;m fine with ‘curvasexalicious’ and ‘zaftig’.
Cole’s version is too long, has not beat and you can’t dance to it.
And, Cole, civilization was built on euphemisms. This where this kind of thing is heading Cole. Draw back from the abyss. Please.
Omnes Omnibus
Well, for one thing, she’s not fat. Also, this.
jl
@Honus:
” No, you’re not making sense. If I didn’t know better I’d think you were still drinking. ”
The very idea that Mr. Cole, when he is in one of his moods, has to drink or do anything at all in particular, in order to not make sense, is insulting and unfair.
smintheus
@Gin & Tonic: I learned something interesting about Wal-Mart today. One of my students said to another “When you just need something to last 4 years until you can graduate, you go to Wal-Mart.”
I had no idea that Wal-Mart products lasted as long as 4 years.
maeve
On the one hand owning “fat” would be saying “F you I’m fat so what” but saying she is “fat” would be saying someone other than size 0, 1 or 2 is “fat”
She’s definitely “curvelicious” (and I’m a mostly hetero female (who is “fat” ) but I can see it)
Or we could go with “rubenesque”
benw
Can we just go back to the system where we married women for their huge… tracts of land?
EconWatcher
Classic Hollywood actresses were not uniformly stick thin (Marilyn Monroe, for example), although some were (Audrey Hepburn). Here’s an interesting discussion: http://franklymydear-blog.blogspot.co.at/2012/07/classic-hollywood-all-shapes-sizes.html Seems like we’re just going back to understanding that a diversity of body sizes can be really attractive. Some men (like me) like it when a woman looks like a woman, rather than a 12-year old boy.
Betty Cracker
She’s not fat.
John Cole
Fuck you people and this “bigfooting” bullshit. The posts were 40 minutes apart. Are you too addle minded to not notice “Hey- this isn’t the same post” or how to use a mousewheel to scroll down?
Starfish
@smintheus: Occasionally, I have gotten things at big box stores that have worked out for me. I have two sweaters that I have owned for ten years from Target.
Nemo_N
It’s one of the pitfalls of trying to get rid of rigid beauty standards; you might ending up creating another set of rigid standards.
jl
@maeve: I thought Tunch was Rubenesque. Can that word apply to both?
.
schrodinger's cat
@jl: Tunch was floofy and awesome and big boned!
jl
@John Cole:
“: how to use a mousewheel to scroll down? ”
This is advertised as a ‘full service blog’. We just click and fully expect to agree and like everything we see. Scrolling past stuff is hard work and takes some thought.
I rest my case.
Edit: and IMHO, ‘curvy’ works too. I think that the more words the better for what she has. I won’t hate on any of them, not even curvesexasalisifraxilicious, or whatever she came up with.
trollhattan
My consultant on such matters, Sir Mix-a-Lot, has yet to return my texts so I withhold comment beyond definitely not unattractive, in a smoulderish way.
MomSense
@Gin & Tonic:
Ok, that cracked me up.
Omnes Omnibus
@John Cole: Fuck you for being a sizist about feet! What the fuck is wrong with you?
trollhattan
@John Cole:
I wear 11.5. Onliest thing I give a fig about is quarter-day periods with no posts whatsoever. Too many posts? No. Such. Thing.
jl
@efgoldman: Thanks.
Cole doesn’t know us anymore (Sob weep sniffle). It is so sad. I feel lost abandoned and betrayed.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: I’m not sure how I got dragged in to this, and based on what you’ve written I either do or do not resemble that remark.
All of that said: anyone who thinks this woman is plus anything is nuts. These are the same folks, who if Barbara Eden was the same age today as she was when starring in I Dream of Genie, would think she was plus size as well.
John Cole
@Betty Cracker: I thought I said that I don’t think she’s fat.
Scout211
No, you are not making sense, John.
However, I think you are trying to say that it should be okay to identify oneself as ‘fat” or overweight and also as attractive. Which is good.
The catch here is it should be up to her to use whatever words she prefers. Just as we all should be able to use our own words to describe ourselves.
Descriptors used to describe another person’s appearance can be very subjective. And can be very judgemental.
maeve
@jl:
Overall I find that a cat who is Rubenesque is overall fluffy and lovely to us all – but a woman who is Rubenesque has – how do I say – more interesting curves …
pat
She is not fat. She is normal. Jeez.
justaguywholikescommentsonfacebook
@Gin & Tonic: This comment needs a facebook “like”
jl
@John Cole: BC just gave her opinion, is all. Why so sensitive?
Subliminal projective nano-aggression noted.
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@Honus:
After 40 minutes, I don’t think it’s “big footing.” Plus also, it’s John’s blog.
Gin & Tonic
@John Cole: Mouses have wheels?
jl
@SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel: @Gin & Tonic:
Discussion getting way too technical for me. I am outta here.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: A clockwork mouse would. And gears.
Adam L Silverman
@pat: She’s stunning. And so where the other two cover models.
Honus
@efgoldman: I’m in an iPad. Don’t even need a mouse wheel, I can just use my finger. I just object to a post complaining about a swimsuit model saying curvalicious interrupting my reading about the bundy morons. As a guest here, I always feel obligated to check out what John’s rants.
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
Anyhow, I’ve never understood the “bigfoot” complaints. How fucking hard is it to click back to the next post down — or use the incredibly useful “Recent Posts” feature (Thanks, Alain!) to continue reading and commenting? Presumably you can do elementary multitasking in other realms of your life, but not on Balloon Juice? GMAFB.
superpredators4hillary
Graham can pull it off because she doesn’t carry the box of donuts in her face.
NotMax
In my day, that was called “normal.”
Honus
@SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel: see my reply to ef. Also, I was being facetious. I firmly believe there’s no such thing as big footing.
reality-based (the original, not the troll)
@maeve:
yes – but it was pointed out to me that there is no such
WORD, really, as “Rubenesque”.
Because if one is referring to “A full-figured woman, such as those commonly seen in the paintings of Peter Paul Rubens – well, note that the painter’s name is REUBENS! So an adjective derived from the painter’s name would properly be “Rubensesque.” – which, of course, no one ever says.
And I’m not even one of this site’s certified word-and-grammar Nazis – I just like the idea of “Rubensesque”
I have no opinion whatsoever on anything else in this thread.
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@John Cole OP:
You must have missed Betty’s “Chimney Rock” post earlier today.
rikyrah
She is not fat. She just has meat on her bones. No offense taken Cole.
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel: I usually inhabit/infest 2-4 threads at a time.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: We have a fogger for that. Just set it on the middle of your computer, pull the tab, and walk away.
cokane
she’s what we called thick where i grew up. obviously in marketing or media she’ll be considered fat, but we all know it ain’t.
Also, you’re never going to detach real fatness from beauty/ugliness. And I don’t understand why there’s such a fight over this… If someone has an ugly face, am I going to see Cole fighting to detach that from the idea of beauty too? If superficial beauty is a thing, fatness/thinness is always going to be part of the calculus.
NotMax
@Gin & Tonic
The classic Walmart snapshot.
reality-based (the original, not the troll)
@reality-based (the original, not the troll):
and yes, i know the word DOES exist – I’m just sayin that it shouldn’t.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
On behalf of my slim-hipped sistren, I say, “Meh” to that article. Even when I was really in shape, my hips and waist were similar sizes, because that’s just how I’m built. The extra boobage makes up for it, plus people usually assume I’m thinner than I really am because people subconsciously judge weight by hip/butt size.
maeve
@Anonymous
Not according to Wikipedia (the authority of all things) –
Peter Paul Rubens
Reuben’s is a sandwich – also full figured and full of deliciousness
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thank you, counselor. I rest my case.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@efgoldman: and @ schrodingers cat and @G&T
She’s not fat. Whatever your intent, Cole, “fat” is an insult in the US. It just is. I think curvy, buxom, or zaftig (or even curvalicious) is descriptive, and accurate based on 1990-2016 standards.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne:
Anecdata, but I dated a woman in law school who everyone assumed was chubby because of her breast size (quite large on a short woman) Anything that she wore that wasn’t form fitting made her look heavier than she was.
Aqualad08
Can’t reply… masturbating…
justaguywholikescommentsonfacebook
Also, I’d bang her after sharing Twinkies (or before, but the snack cakes would be important).
WarMunchkin
Didn’t I see basically this post a couple of years ago with Miss America, except in bikini?
Felonius Monk
@Aqualad08: Please mop up when you are finished.
laura
She’s: lovely, attractive, earthy, shapely, curvy, well built, beautiful, has a good figure, ample, healthy, she’s a brick house!
And like me, she’s built for comfort, not for speed.
Mike in NC
O/T: We were informed tonight that my wife’s cousin on Long Island passed away from inoperable cancer. Can someone update us on the weather conditions up there? Going up for the funeral next week and we’d prefer to fly rather than drive this time of year.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike in NC: Condolences.
Anoniminous
@Mike in NC:
Sorry to hear that.
bobbo
If she is fat so was Marilyn Monroe.
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@Mike in NC:
Can’t help with weather, but can send hugs and sympathy. I am so sorry. This has been a tough few days for Juicers.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Mike in NC: My condolences.
The Other Chuck
The “idiotic” BMI we use to define obesity is that which correlates to diabetes, heart disease, and all the other problems that go with it. Aside from a few ages of blue-blooded aristocrats defining fashion, there has never been some golden age where women were zaftig and that was all good and everybody just loved their body image without being oppressed into being skinny. Yes, magazine model standards are not realistic. Yes, there are ridiculous double standards when it comes to women being judged vs men. But fat is a hell of a lot more than an image problem, it really is a health problem.
But she don’t look fat to me either.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike in NC: Mike, my condolences. HEre’s a link the to weekly forecast:
http://longisland.news12.com/weather/
I used to live in Bethpage (for one year), depending on where you’re going, let me know if you need recommendations for anything. They’ll be about ten years out of date, but…
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel: I found out recently that someone I care about doesn’t have cancer, just an easily treatable condition. Good news department and all. Been worried sick.
Clem
She is already a body type activist and she probably doesn’t need old dudes to mansplain to her how to make her point.
divF
@Adam L Silverman:
+1. Same with early Marilyn Monroe (see the stills from Love Happy with Groucho Marx).
ETA:
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
There’s a reason good tailors invented the dart (dress or shirt). They are a busty girl’s best friend. Otherwise, the fabric hangs straight down and you look fat.
You probably noticed immediately that the lady whose picture is at the top is wearing a form-fitting sweater. Not a coincidence.
Omnes Omnibus
Someone had to do it.
Davebo
I spent 23 years with my late wife who varied from a size 14 to 16.
I’ve spent 2 years almost with a girlfriend who varies from a size 2 to 4.
Both were/are beautiful. And it had/has absolutely nothing to do with size.
Some men would obviously find the latter more attractive. And don’t get me wrong, she’s tragically hot to me as well. But so was my first. And dress size never figured into the calculation to me.
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@Omnes Omnibus:
I am very glad to hear that.
NotMax
@divF
Also too, Mae West.
Isobel
Ain’t nothing fat about her. You make perfect sense, John, and it needed to be said.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: From my fake psykyitrist perch, I think she was teased/harassed about her breasts when she was young and went for baggy things to deflect.
satby
@smintheus: they don’t.
NotMax
@Mnemosyne
The scene that made Lana Turner a star.
Mnemosyne
@The Other Chuck:
Fashion-wise, truly skinny (think Twiggy) wasn’t popular anywhere until the 1960s. But different body parts got their due at different times — some time periods were all about the boobs, while others were more hip-focused.
That’s why it’s always ridiculous to see articles that say “men like X.” Individual men may have a preference for something, but there really doesn’t seem to be any evidence for a strong, cross-cultural preference for a single specific body type. Guys are a lot more flexible in their likes than they’re usually given credit for (and I state this as a woman).
JordanRules
Yeah, not fat so not sure why she would just say that. Think I know what you were trying to get at tho, but it feels like you were just bowing down to the fashion industry and what not.
NotMax
OT (article is from Feb. 15):
Robin the Boy Wonder dead at 92.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I went that route for a long time. Then I hit 30 and was like, “Fuck all y’all, it’s not my problem if you’re too immature to handle boobs.”
J R in WV
@NotMax:
Arrgghhh~!!!
I knew, I knew, Oh how I knew not to click, and I did it anyways. I’ll never be able to forget seeing that.
ON the other hand, John’s model is nearly perfectly shaped. Too skinny looks like an ill person to me.
mclaren
Anyone who considers that woman fat suffers from a severe neurotic bulimic eating disorder.
NotMax
@NotMax
Bad linky. Me fix.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: My ex and my current interest have educated me about woman’s fashion.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: Shouldn’t that be either lacking in the dexterity or eye/hand coordination to handle boobs?
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Have you met Cole?
GregB
It is too bad this trend peaked too late for Antonin Scalia to appear in people magazine’s Rubensque Men in Robes layout.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: I will confess that I could play violin, shoot well with (long and hand) guns, and a variety of other things, but bras have defeated me more than once. Everyone has flaws. Don’t judge me.
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
If you first put down the violin and the gun, it’s much easier.
;)
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: What do I do with my drink? It is a puzzlement.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Sorry, there’s only one person currently authorized to do actual handling. Two if you count my doctor.
;-)
I think I did get a spit-take from our gracious host one night when I mentioned I had been sold an unexpected bra size for a formal occasion (my anatomy remained the same, but the underpinnings had to do some extra work for that specific dress).
Irony Abounds
She looks just right at her size, which is what I think is important. Beautiful women come in all sizes, from Grace Kelly, who in my view was about as beautiful as they come, to Marilyn Monroe (just watched The Seven Year Itch and was reminded of how beautiful she was), to Kate Upton, to Kate Hudson. They just have to look like everything is the right size for them. And that’s just physical beauty. Attractiveness can come from intellectual ability, talent in music or sports, or even in just the way they talk (I’m a sucker for an accent). All in all, I like women.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: You know that safety harness cutter the Army issues you before you deploy in case you’re hanging upside down in your humvee? Perhaps you should keep one handy just in case?
NotMax
@Omnes Omnibus
Silly Omnes, you pour it into a cup.
;)
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: Okay, not sure how you got what you got out of that comment, but okay.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Do you have any idea how expensive lingerie can be? Cut a La Perla or Agent Provocateur? Or something that might be, because how the fuck do I know? Are you daft?
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: I know.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Put that down also, idiot. Do we have to explain everything?
The Lodger
@GregB: No, it’s not.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
No worries, just some friendly internet joshing.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: I understood that part, I just wasn’t quite sure how we got from A to Q.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Yes, please. Write it out. I learn by reading. Okay, put down gun, violin, and drink. Can I surreptitiously finish my drink and then put it down? BTW, where is her drink? What is she supposed to do with hers? I care about both people being happy.
max
This Will Piss Everyone Off Probably But It is Not My Intent
Oh, c’mon Cole, everything pisses everybody off during election season. ‘Tis the season to be jerky, preferably not beef.
@Mnemosyne: Fashion-wise, truly skinny (think Twiggy) wasn’t popular anywhere until the 1960s. But different body parts got their due at different times — some time periods were all about the boobs, while others were more hip-focused.
Yep. We’re currently in a tight jeans period, like the 80’s – the 90’s were all about the tight tops and loose pants.
That’s why it’s always ridiculous to see articles that say “men like X.” Individual men may have a preference for something, but there really doesn’t seem to be any evidence for a strong, cross-cultural preference for a single specific body type. Guys are a lot more flexible in their likes than they’re usually given credit for (and I state this as a woman).
I endorse your entire comment, please to be continuing to speak for me like that.
max
[‘I suspect individual men are also a lot more flexible in the ‘looks’ department as well, type or no type.’]
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Have you all considered this option?
http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/4364359/Best+cupholder
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
ADHD.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: It depends on how surreptitiously you can manage to do so. Ideally, she’s put hers down as well, and things are synchronized to the point where continued drink consumption by both (or either) can be accommodated.
But keep in mind, it’s been a long time since pre-Mr. Q.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: It had not occurred to me. Lawyer, not engineer.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Yeah, post-divorce involved a learning curve.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: I dated a woman with that when I was first assigned to the war college. I went on leave for ten days to visit family in Florida for Passover. When I got back she’d broken up with me. A physician friend who knew she had ADHD told me it was my fault, I was away to long and she got distracted by something else. While this was probably true, and also somewhat funny, at the time I wasn’t amused.
Luthe
@Omnes Omnibus: Ask your lady friend to switch to front-close bras. Problem solved.
Mnemosyne
Threads like this make me miss Suzanne. I know she’s still around occasionally, but I don’t think she has time to be on the night crew anymore.
John Cole
@Clem: I wasn’t mansplaining, I was thinking out loud.
From now on I am just ignoring anyone who uses the -splaining at the end of a word.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
I didn’t get diagnosed until I was over 40. I was never a romantic flitterer, but I have a somewhat checkered job history. Temp work is made for people with ADHD.
Omnes Omnibus
@Luthe: Have you ever asked a woman to discard a shitload of lingerie because you aren’t good at unlatching it? Nor have I. Nor will I.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: She didn’t flitter. There were issues I was not aware of – she was a good actress. Of course I didn’t learn that till she decided to explain what actually happened a year later. It was what it was.
laura
@John Cole:
Lucy! You’ve got some ‘splainin to do! ; D
Guachi
If she’s overweight, it probably isn’t by much. She just has wide hips.
But attractive is definitely not a word I’d use to describe her. And it’s not her body shape that’s the reason.
AnotherBruce
@pat: Actually as a man that prefers big women, I think she is more than normal, she’s beautiful. But I’ve noticed that as I get older my preferences change, and I tend to find more and more types of women beautiful. Especially the smart and funny ones.
Ella in New Mexico
No.
PurpleGirl
@EconWatcher: Audrey Hepburn was rail thin because she lived in Belgium as a child and experienced starvation conditions during World War II. She never was able to gain much weight as she grew older. Although her father was English, her mother thought they’d do better in Belgium and so she moved there and got stuck there.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s the funniest question I’ve read this week. Thank you.
I don’t expect nearly as much comedy from the forensics folks tomorrow. If we had a longer meeting I’d ask their thoughts on Fry’s comepetency; I doubt they will bring it up.
Omnes Omnibus
@PurpleGirl: She also did minor tasks for the Resistance and denigrated whatever she did do for the rest of her life. I respect that.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I do my best.
PurpleGirl
There was once a magazine named “BBW”; BBW stood for “Big Beautiful Women” and it tried to encourage plus-sized models, women who were wearing sizes from 14 and up. Sorry to say, it only lasted a few years. I never subscribed to it but bought it often.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
There’s been a lot of really interesting research about ADHD and emotion in the past couple of years — it has a much greater effect on emotion than was previously realized. There is now some thinking that atypical depression and dysthymia may be linked to ADHD and may not be true mood disorders. It’s still in the early stages of investigation, but my initial diagnosis was dysthymia and it wasn’t until a few years after that that the ADHD was finally diagnosed.
NotMax
@PurpleGirl
Also too, Leslie Caron.
Although in her case it was as a native in wartime France.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: My first aikido sensei played her little sister in a Nun’s Story. This amounted to about two scenes. One of which was her standing on a bridge in Bruge wearing a hat.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: Tracking, but given what she eventually told me, I don’t think the ADHD had anything to do with it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: I do not know how to respond to that. Blog-wise.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ll just go to bed.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
So she was cast as a Brussels sprout?
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Always hard to say since people are not lab rats and many variables interact. There are a lot of comorbid conditions (my adult nephew inherited the fun combination of ADHD and bipolar), plus shitty parenting or other uncontrollable circumstances can cause their own set(s) of problems on top of the ADHD and any other underlying disorders. But I have to work tomorrow morning, so I’m giving up internet diagnosis for the night.
SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel
@Adam L Silverman:
Jeanette Sterke?
PurpleGirl
@Mike in NC: Hope you’re still reading. The next week or so the temperature should be in the high 30s, with only light snow/rain, this coming Friday night – Saturday. I live under the bad weather landing zone for LaGuardia and it hasn’t been used exclusively in several days. You could check the National Weather Service web site and put in the zip code for the area you are going to.
ETA: My condolences to your family.
Jewish Steel
@Omnes Omnibus: I just went down a deep youtube hole watching sovereign citizens argue with cops and judges. Sovereign citizens just love a bunch of specious legalese. I feel like they are all frustrated lawyers and had fate not dealt them a dummy’s brain, they might have found fulfillment at the bar.
Gemina13
If she’s fat, I’m Mama June, and I’m 5’6 / 168 lbs.
Buxom, yes. Curvy, yes. Fat?? For what, a Liliputian?
Trentrunner
Why don’t we have a photo/discussion about a male body and its relative attractiveness?
This post and thread are uncomfortably close to “But he’s an articulate negro.”
It’s a compliment only if you don’t realize the default assumptions embedded therein.
Such as: All women’s bodies/faces are up for assessment/evaluation/criticism. All always fall short, somehow, because even if we conclude “She’s hot!,” it just reinforces how much all women are always being evaluated and valued as people only for their appearance.
Tommy
@Gemina13: I am a 5’4 male. 128 pounds. I like fit ladies. I am fit. If that lady pictured above isn’t smoking hot I might not be a straight male. She is smoking hot. I am a fit male. Appearance alone that is a given IMHO. If talking with her she is also the same, well cool. Get off her case.
AxelFoley
She’s not fat, but she IS phat. She’s thick in ALL the right places, Cole.
Just shut up and enjoy the view, bruh.
Amir Khalid
Ashley Graham’s no skinny white girl, which seems to be the default standard these days for feminine beauty, but she does look hot to me.
@Trentrunner:
It’s not customary for women to acknowledge that they ogle men the way men ogle women. Perhaps they really don’t, but that seems less than likely to me. Or perhaps the sexual aggressiveness implicit in the act of ogling is considered a naturally masculine thing for a man, but frowned upon as unladylike in a woman.
low-tech cyclist
@Omnes Omnibus:
While I think of that song as being about women who are big through the hips, no question that this one has ‘all the right junk in all the right places.’
It does seem to me that in the ~50 years I’ve been paying attention to the way women look, the media standards for the size a woman has to be, to be on the magazine covers, or a female lead in a movie or on a TV show, have gotten steadily more unrealistic. If people talked about size zero models in the 1960s outside of the context of Twiggy, I definitely missed it.
The woman in the pic up top strikes me as being medium-sized – not fat, not skinny, but medium.
This sort of discussion reminds me of when Christina Hendricks got well-known in Mad Men – she’d been in a couple of episodes of Firefly, and she was smokin’ hot as Saffron. I didn’t give a thought to her size, and if there was any contemporaneous discussion of her being ‘hot for a large woman,’ I sure missed it. Her size didn’t register with most people as being out of the ordinary.
So it kinda stunned me when that was the nature of the discussion about her once Mad Men brought her to a wider audience. Because she just isn’t that big, by everyday standards. She’s only big by Hollywood and magazine cover standards.
Zinsky
The female figure and what society idealizes as the “perfect” female body changes over time. Look at some of the early Renaissance paintings of nudes – those women would be considered fat by today’s standards. I think all women are beautiful (except maybe Carly Fiorina and Sarah Palin, but they are ugly from the inside out!).
Montarvillois
She is not fat.
GregB
@Jewish Steel: Shithouse lawyers.
Anne Laurie
@PurpleGirl: With the exception of seriously niche companies (such as MiB, originally Making It Big), even “plus-sized” women’s fashion companies don’t use really fat models… because Size 22 women would rather look at a Size 12 or 14 model and guess how a garment will fit them, than face visual confimation that, yeah, it ain’t the dress.
Which kinda relates to Cole’s original point. Americans, in general, have the same Don’t-Want-to-See-Reality problem with appearance as “we” do with our politics. Half the problems in our country result from people who just can’t cope with the “imperfections” of themselves or their politics.
Beth in VA
I think I get what you mean, Cole. Besides another category of labeling, and despite your humble and profane writing style, you have a certain sense of the English language that’s served you well. The incredible success of BJ attests to that. Curvasexilicious (or whatever) just isn’t something your writers’ voice would come up with.
WaterGirl
@John Cole: i know, all that “you bigfooted” stuff is kind of silly, in my opinion. I’m happiest when there are multiple active threads!
All you guys who are jumping on Cole for saying she’s fat must have skimmed his post, not read it. Because Cole said outright that he doesn’t even think she is fat:
“Lemme try another stab- I don’t even think she is fat, but by industry standards and the idiotic BMI we use, she is probably considered obese. But what if she is fat, she’s super fucking hot?”
It seems to me that one of the points to the post is — well, what if she was fat, or what if you see her as fat, what does it matter? Because he is super fucking hot! So when you’re jumping on Cole for saying she’s fat (which he didn’t) you’re ignoring the conversation Cole was trying to start.
H.K. Anders
That woman is not fat. It is only by the insane standards of the fashion/entertainment industry complex that she would even be considered overweight.
OGLiberal
My wife and I always complain about the “plus size model” description….because when we look at women who have this description attached to them, we think, “if that’s plus size then what I think is normal is morbidly obese and what I think of as skinny is near death anorexic”. I think the problem with calling Ashley Graham “plus size” is that it makes women who are really what “normal” should be think that they are great big fat people…but they really aren’t.
Cole mentions BMI. While I’ve put some of it back, about a year or so ago I lost about 50 pounds. I had plenty to lose but I got to the point where my wife said, “you’re going to start looking bad if you lose more weight”. (she’s of the firm belief then when start moving past the 40 mark, you start to look bad if you get down to the weight you were at 25) Soon after the weight loss I went for a routine physical and my doctor said I needed to lose weight because I was obese. I checked the ideal weight charts and it said that for my height I should weigh 142-156. I got down to about 165 about 10-years ago and when I look back at pictures taken of me around that time I look terrible, just awful, like I was in the “hole” at some maximum security prison for 6-months eating nothing but crackers and water. The “ideal” weight charts and BMI numbers are just ridiculous.
iLarynx
“A family blog”? With mindless/pointless F-bombs littered by the various non-John posters throughout? Hardly. Does this mean that Eddie Murphy can call himself a “family comedian” now too? I’m of the George Carlin mindset myself in that hearing the “7 words” won’t make my teenagers’ heads explode, but I’ve avoided forwarding them links to some otherwise good posts on this site because of the stupid, juvenile language. Hearing someone loudly belch and fart in public won’t kill anyone either, but most adults try to avoid this out of respect for those around them.
However, as The Stranger would say, “Okay, Dude. Have it your way.”
Nancy A/K/A Nanzee
I am fat and I look good. The only f__k (family friendly) I give is that my knees are happier if my body is smaller. That’s a reason to try to lose some mass and to exercise. The word fat is laden with dread and disgust for many people, and if I do describe myself in that way, friends and co-workers feel a need to reassure me that I’m not. I think that the model’s multisyllable word might be hard to remember but I understand the need for alternatives. Trouble is, we still know what the alternatives mean.
I’m pretty enlightened, body-image wise, and I still get the creeps about the word, “FAT, fat, fat, fat, still got a lot of power in those three letters.
Revrick
When I first saw this babelicious woman, I thought Cole was just busting Mayhew’s chops about digging redheads. I don’t think the average red-blooded hetero male would complain very much if Ms. Graham crooked her finger his way and made it clear she favored his company. More likely, an amazed “Thank you, God!”
RSA
When I was growing up (I was born in the 60s) people used words like “buxom” and “full-figured” and “shapely” and “hourglass-shaped” to describe a model like this. These words have fallen out of favor, for some reason–even to my ear they sound very old-fashioned. I’ve have thought they’d become more useful, different from the generic “fat” or “plus-sized”, as America has gained weight (on average today’s adults are about 15% heavier than adults in the 1960s).
Ben
Only on BJ would you hear “family blog” and “fucking hot” in the same post. Love it!
Denali
This model is very attractive, but it is quite alarming to go out in public and find that most people are overweight and a very sizable percentage of them are morbedly obese. Sure, the word “fat” is insuliting, but people might find that “fit” is a worthy goal.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Too much time spent on the question of “what do you call this girl?”
Brass tacks, kids: would you or wouldn’t you?
Hell yes I would.
Discussion over.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
A more profitable discussion might be about Ashley Graham’s body type vs Rebel Wilson’s. No one outside of the media or the fashion industry would consider Graham “fat”. While many would use sizist terminology to descibe Wilson.
I am reminded of this verse from an old Jimmie Rodgers song.
” Gonna build me a shanty,
Lord, I’m gonna settle down.
Gonna build me a shanty,
Lord, I’m gonna settle down.
Get me a cornfed mama,
and quit this runnin round”.
Paul in KY
@Aqualad08: For the win!
Paul in KY
@J R in WV: I did not click on it. Patting myself on back right now.
Adam L Silverman
@SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel: No Anita Myerson (now Bonnivert). If you look at the farewell seen there’s a shorter, young woman at the farewell scene in Brugge as Hepburn is leaving. You only see half to 2/3 of her face. That’s my sensei when she was in her late teens/early 20s. Basically it was an extra’s part.
Paul in KY
@iLarynx: Fuck off!
Gemina13
@Tommy: Ashley Graham seems to hit a common chord. And that chord is, “Lady, you are smoking hot, and you can carry us away any time.”
Marjowil
Mexican construction workers used to call me “gordita.” however that was a long time ago and I am more gordita than ever.
Chris T.
I’ll just say one thing here: BMI is crap. OK, two things: it’s also starting (but only just starting) to fall out of favor in the medical field too.
fuckwit
Cole is awesome but he trips all over his own dick (see what I did there?) when he tries to tackle gender issues.
Zip it, buddy. Let women discuss gender issues. Just listen. We’re middle aged white straight guys, we have no clue what we’re talking about on this topic.
No One You Know
@Mnemosyne: That would be me, also. Not a social butterfly.