Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

Bark louder, little dog.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

“But what about the lurkers?”

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

Come on, man.

If you are still in the GOP, you are an extremist.

Americans barely caring about Afghanistan is so last month.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

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Open Thread: This Seems Like Wise Advice

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395Comments

  1. 1.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    There will be some Bernie Bros that head on over to Camp Trump – lookin’ at you Greenwald & Sirota – but most are good people.

    Uh oh. This does not bode well for Cole’s hair, scalp or twitter stream

  3. 3.

    Hal

    Why on earth would Greenwald go Trump? I’m no Greenwald fan (seriously dude, hire an editor) but isn’t trump the pole star of everything he hates?

  4. 4.

    zzyzx

    I was joking pre-Nevada that my Bernie friends were going to depression (the system is rigged!) and anger (various anti-Clinton right wing cliches)… Looking forward to acceptance.

  5. 5.

    sparrow

    I’m not so sure this is over just yet. Sanders has wildly outperformed my original expectations (which were that he would win no states at all). But I stand by my original prediction many many months ago that Hillary will win the nomination and lose the general. She is very popular within the democratic primary, but nowhere else.

    And believe me, I desperately want Hillary to win if she gets the nomination.

  6. 6.

    StringOnAStick

    I haven’t posted here in a long time, so here goes. By general ideas, I am a total Berniebot, but the realist in me has recently looked at the unicorn stuff in his plans, especially health care and the budget, and has decided I have to switch to Hillary. I’d love to see Scandinavian democratic socialism here, and I think we can get there eventually but I think this time we can’t take a flier because: USSC, period. The next president will get to decide the ideological leanings of the Supremes for the rest of my life, and it is damned easy to see that them going any further rightward significantly increases my fellow Boomers’ chances of ending their lives without SS or Medicare, and once the reverse mortgages run out…

  7. 7.

    Peale

    @Hal: you would think that, but Trump has never voted on anything either. Trump is not guilty of war crimes. How are we really supposed to know what he will do in office.

  8. 8.

    Baud

    @Hal: I assume it’s because Trump has a more isolationist stance when it comes to military intervention in the Middle East. Still, given what Trump wants to do domestically, I would think GG would go third party.

  9. 9.

    Mike J

    If only the people who abase themselves for the dried old old harridan would treat Sanders people with some respect…

  11. 11.

    Corner Stone

    So, just read this article on Feminist Hell at Wapo. I’m not sure how much snark is involved in the overall article but I did want to ask the BJ Commentariot a question on one of the points made:
    “Eighth Circle: Bad Feminists”

    Women Who Let A Man Hold A Door For Them, Even Once. They must spend eternity standing behind a man while he takes credit for their accomplishments.

    I hold doors for people all the time. Is it now unacceptable for me to do that for women any longer? Am I making some statement I am unaware of by holding doors or elevators, etc for a woman?

  15. 15.

    aimai

    @sparrow: I don’t get the idea that HRC is “very popular with the democratic primary but nowhere else.” The country is absolutely riven, top to toe. There are going to be no crossover voters. So if she loses she loses because she can’t turn out enough democrats. She’s betting she can and if she can hang on to the Obama coalition she can. Bernie thought he could do it without the Obama coalition but with crossovers from Trump supporters.I think that was a pipe dream. Bernie wasn’t offering enough of what trump supporters like (hate and racism). Bernie only had a chance if Trump wasn’t the nominee and his populism was the only game in town going up against Jeb or Cruz. If trump is the nominee on the right side HRC should do fine on the democratic side.

  16. 16.

    Corner Stone

    I had my problems with WJC as president but he is an amazing retail politician and campaigner. WTS, I really wish the HRC campaign would let him out and about a little less. I’m not sure the ROI is there right now.*

    *I think he did an awesome job for PBO in 2012. For whatever reason he seems to have real trouble self-policing when he is advocating for HRC.

  21. 21.

    Cacti

    @Hal:

    Why on earth would Greenwald go Trump? I’m no Greenwald fan (seriously dude, hire an editor) but isn’t trump the pole star of everything he hates?

    St. Glenn of Copacabana has a history of saying some very Trump-ish things about Hispanics.

  22. 22.

    muddy

    @Corner Stone: Holding the door when someone is right there is just common courtesy. I hold the door for both sexes and have had both hold it for me. I say thank you in the 2nd case. I don’t care one way or the other if people thank me, it’s not my motivation.

    The only door holding I don’t like is when some guy holds the door way too far in front of you, and it makes you feel like you have to hurry. And then it turns out he was just “being nice” with the door so he can chat you up. Possibly this annoying type is what some women don’t like.

  23. 23.

    aimai

    @LanceThruster: Given that HRC herself turned on a dime and was Obama’s Secretary of State I don’t think she can be held responsible for the approximately six or seven sore losers who pretended to be PUMAs. The vast majority of democratic voters voted for Obama without any trouble. I never believed in the PUMAs at all. They were a figment of the media imagination.

  24. 24.

    Anne Laurie

    @Corner Stone: Alex Petri is the WaPo‘s “political humor” columnist. Like Andy Borowitz at the New Yorker, her best work is extremely short-format (twitter for her, titles for him). Anything more than 25 words, you can smell the flopsweat over the tubes.

  25. 25.

    Pandemoniac

    Anger: Go Trump

    LOL WTF?
    Berniebros: “Let’s go after the 1%. Wait, no, let me cheer this orange guy from the 1% for a sec.”
    In what logical multiverse does that follow? It was almost as if Al read that and copied/pasted that into his tweet. It is to larf, as the Pierce guy sez.

  28. 28.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Baud: If no one goies into Cleveland with a 1st-ballot majority, Greedy Old Plutocrats in a smoke-filled room get to choose the nominee (whom I expect will be, with greatly feigned reluctance, Paul Ryan) & then go forth to tank the economy come October (something Rethugs are past bastards at) & suddenly it’s too close to call…yikes.

  29. 29.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Baud:
    I would not expect Greenwald to go Trump, but neither would it surprise me. He’s a Libertarian, and they have a long history of voting Republican. If he does, well, someone let me know if that happens, and I’ll have a lot to say about it then.

  30. 30.

    sparrow

    @aimai:

    I’m sorry, but I think you’re grossly wrong about political divisions in this country. This is a narrative that is often pushed by the pundit class, but there is actual evidence from academic research that a majority of people are ‘cross-pressured’ with a mix of liberal and conservative beliefs. Also, a huge chunk of the electorate identifies as ‘independent.’

    Here is an article that sums up my thinking on this (written by a historian at Princeton)….

    According to national polls, nearly 53 percent of Americans have an unfavorable impression of Clinton, which would make her the most disliked presidential nominee in modern history. Even if incumbents are included, the only candidate with worse numbers was Jimmy Carter in 1980.

    …

    The problem is that the loyal Democratic vote is simply not enough to win a general election. In 2012, Democrats made up only 38 percent of the general electorate, while registered independents accounted for 29 percent. On his way to defeating Mitt Romney, Barack Obama won almost half of them.

    Clinton’s appeal among these non-Democratic voters is extremely limited. Just 29 percent of independents hold a favorable view of her, according to an average of three YouGov surveys taken since January; over 61 percent view her unfavorably. In the most recent poll, Clinton’s count was 24 to 67, with 50 percent saying they hold a “very unfavorable” opinion. These are numbers that should make even Supreme Court-first liberals feel skittish.

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/02/karp-bernie-sanders-electability-clinton-republicans-trump-election/

    I’m perfectly willing to admit that this is a debatable point and that we won’t know until we actually have an election, but I think these are reasonable arguments that people need to consider. I think Bernie is far more electable in the general, given his good performance with independents. But we’ll see.

  33. 33.

    Amir Khalid

    @Corner Stone:
    Has Bill really been putting his foot in his mouth on thwe campaign trail for Hillary? Or is it just tactical hypersensitivity on the part of Bernistas, casting the worst possible light on everything her surrogates say?

  35. 35.

    divF

    @aimai:

    I hold doors for men, women, and little little babies.

    Me, too. Toddlers, not so much, though. I am more into discreetly blocking the door to help parents to keep them from escaping.

  36. 36.

    FlyingToaster

    @Corner Stone: Alex Petri was passing along the explanation she got from someone named Feminist Virgil.

    I’m pretty sure you don’t need to take her snark as gospel.

  37. 37.

    Anne Laurie

    @LanceThruster:

    Don’t forget the PUMA phenomenon arose from HRC supporters.

    Nah, PUMAs were as astroturfed as the Tea Party — it was 89% Repub ratfvckers, ginning up a handful of angry HRC supporters as figureheads.

    I’m sure the Repubs are already attempting to repeat the process with ‘disgruntled’ Sandernistas, but the most hardcore Bernie supporters (college students, Boomer ex-“radical” men) are a lot more savvy about the use & abuse of “protests” by oppo groups.

  38. 38.

    sharl

    @Hal: I love Giordano, but sometimes he needs to just let things go. However, as he himself has joked about as being an “Italian thing”, it ain’t always in him to simply discard a beloved grudge.

    I don’t know about Sirota, but in the case of Greenwald, the grudge goes back to the 2008 election campaign.

    There’s more to it than that, some of which is hinted at in a couple of those other tweets AL posted. But there is (online) history between Giordano and Greenwald that goes back a few years.

  39. 39.

    Pandemoniac

    @Peale:

    How are we really supposed to know what he will do in office.

    We know what congress will do. All evil needs to succeed is for someone to turn a blind eye. All he has to do is stand there and and wave those puny sausages around and blame the chaos on the peasantry.

  40. 40.

    Belafon

    The above cracks me up. I personally don’t mind a sportsball team that runs up the score. I find it silly for someone in a competition, who is competing, to go “be gracious about your win” after both sides have gone after each other. The winner can hoot all they want. It doesn’t help Democrats if Clinton supporters point at Sanders and go “haha, loser!” but we’re all (supposed to be) grownups. If you can’t handle losing, you’re not going to like having your candidate as president. The few true victories you get there should be celebrated like you’ve won the lottery.

  43. 43.

    Corner Stone

    @Anne Laurie: Ah. I originally saw the “Opinion” header but didn’t pay attention to the ComPost category. The piece read kind of all over the place so I wasn’t sure, but thought the snark was there. I hadn’t intended on stopping the opening of doors but thought I’d double check what was what.

  44. 44.

    Baud

    @sparrow: I think Clinton can lose but I’m not convinced Bernie is more electable despite his higher favorability ratings. It’s possible neither of them can pull it off. Of course, we’ll only know the outcome of one of them.

  45. 45.

    FlyingToaster

    @Amir Khalid: Both sides have celebrity supporters who can be a pain in the ass (cough Gloria Steinem cough).

    Truth:

    The voting preferences at Chez Toaster:
    Me:
    Clinton -> Sanders -> Zika Virus -> any Republican on the slate
    HerrDoktor:
    Sanders -> Clinton -> Ebola -> any Republican on the slate

    We agree on Democrats better than deadly infectious virii better than Republicans.

  46. 46.

    smintheus

    So it’s already over? Even though HRC has yet to win a primary?

    I’m so old I remember in 2008 when Clintonistas were arguing that caucuses aren’t really representative the way primaries are. In fact they went so far as to insinuate that caucuses should be treated as practically illegitimate.

  48. 48.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Corner Stone:
    Decades ago – the early 70s I think – there was a sort of civil war within feminism with a major (or at least loud) group who frothingly hated everything related to traditional gender dynamics and, usually, men. Conservatives decided they are feminism, and have never let go of that straw man. Radical feminists still exist, but they’re pretty damn rare and haven’t had any influence on feminism as a national movement in decades.

  49. 49.

    Cacti

    @NR:

    Hillary supporters falsely claimed that Sanders supporters chanted “English only!” at a Nevada caucus, but sure, “BernieBros” are the problem.

    Yeah, about that…

    ThinkProgress has more of the story here. Evidently they called for a translator, Huerta came up, and they chose not to use her, opting instead for English only because they were concerned about her neutrality.

    “The fellow that was running the caucus said that the first person to come up to the stage could translate, so I went up. Nobody else did,” she said. “Then the Bernie people started yelling no, no, no. One of their people came up, and I suggested we both translate. But the moderator decided we would have no translation. So the Bernie people preferred we would have no translation just because I was going to do the translating. It’s ridiculous, because if I had said something that wasn’t accurate, I’m sure somebody would have corrected me.”

    “The room was divided with the Hillary people on one side and the Bernie people on the other,” Huerta said. “It was really unfortunate, because there were many Spanish-speaking voters, the casino workers. We wanted to make it more comfortable for them, so they could know what was going on.”

    But I’m all for the Bernie bros continuing to slime Dolores Huerta. Should win them a lot of friends in the Hispanic community.

  50. 50.

    Zinsky

    I heard Las Vegas oddsmakers are giving Trump only a 15% chance of beating Hillary in the general election. I think they are better predictors than these pollsters. They have to be. Show me the money!!

  51. 51.

    Cacti

    @smintheus:

    So it’s already over? Even though HRC has yet to win a primary?

    I’m so old I remember in 2008 when Clintonistas were arguing that caucuses aren’t really representative the way primaries are. In fact they went so far as to insinuate that caucuses should be treated as practically illegitimate.

    That talking point will be gone in 6-days.

    Then what?

  54. 54.

    John Cole

    “Hey all you sexist racist kids who want free shit just given away, no hard feelings, amirite?”

    Good luck turning this Clinton made freight train around.

  56. 56.

    Corner Stone

    @Renie: He already started as of today on This Week with George S. Said he wasn’t sure if Rubio was eligible to be president.

  58. 58.

    Pandemoniac

    From the last tweet:

    When you have your rival backed into a corner

    They essentially have earned the same number of pledged delegates; and Bernie has probably earned more D votes in the primaries.
    Superdelegates, on the other hand, are falling out of HRC pockets along with money from Wall Street.
    Are we admitting that the game is rigged? I guess we are.

  59. 59.

    Corner Stone

    @Amir Khalid: I’m more pre-emptively worried about him more than anything damaging as of yet. Anything he says gets major play – and major spin by the bad guys. So if he’s not tight and on point then he gives a wide spread of hot takes that can be used/fabricated. And anyone familiar with WJC knows he loves the sound of his own voice and is so smart he can expound on just about any topic. And will.

  61. 61.

    Cacti

    @John Cole:

    “Hey all you sexist racist kids who want free shit just given away, no hard feelings, amirite?”

    Good luck turning this Clinton made freight train around.

    Reformed Republican bastards for Sanders unite!

  63. 63.

    gwangung

    They essentially have earned the same number of pledged delegates; and Bernie has probably earned more D votes in the primaries.

    This is going to change.

    Are we admitting that the game is rigged? I guess we are.

    Stop it.

  64. 64.

    Cacti

    Berniebros: You corporatist establishment tools of Wall Street better not hurt my extremely delicate feelings.

    Me: Fuck off.

  66. 66.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    We just got back from seeing Michael Moore’s “Where to invade next”. I was a little worried for the first few minutes, but pleasantly relieved when he didn’t go where it seemed he wanted us to think he was going.

    Good film! Even if you know some of the facts and figures, there’s still quite a bit that will be new to most Americans.

    Moore looked seriously ill at times. I hope he makes a speedy recovery.

    They also showed a trailer for “Eye in the Sky”. It looks like it has a great cast and the potential to be a thoughtful film. I hope they didn’t mess it up (it looks like it was one of Rickman’s last films).

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  67. 67.

    Felonius Monk

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    someone let me know if that happens, and I’ll have a lot to say about it then.

    Why bother? It’s not like GG is any kind of a Thought Leader or even a good journalist. Save your energy, there are more important things to do like cleaning the catbox or sorting your socks.

  70. 70.

    Cacti

    So, when will Bernie win a caucus where he doesn’t have the help of stolen GOTV data from the Clinton campaign?

  71. 71.

    different-church-lady

    @Hal: When Greenwald has to choose between two things he hates….

    Wait… he hates everything. Never mind…

  73. 73.

    Belafon

    @smintheus:

    So it’s already over?

    Kind of curious where someone said exactly that. There is a pretty serious argument to be made, though, that Sanders is really going to hurt in states that look more diverse than Iowa and NH, such as South Carolina and most of the states on Super Tuesday. And even though Nevada is a caucus, the fact that Clinton won in the way she did can’t be discounted. And, unlike in 2008, she also won the delegate count.

  75. 75.

    NR

    @Cacti: Right, we made up all that $$$ Hillary took from Wall Street, just like her supporters made up the “English only” bullshit.

    Oh, wait.

  76. 76.

    humboldtblue

    I live in a very liberal and politically active area with a state university up the road and the only Bernie supporter I have met is a young recently graduated co-worker.

  77. 77.

    aimai

    @sparrow: Independents are not actually swing voters. People claim they are “independents” for a variety of reasons but I think studies have shown that very few of them are actually swing voters. They generally vote a straight party line but often think of themselves as choosing “the person, not the party.” Its mostly ego and self deception.

  80. 80.

    Corner Stone

    @Pandemoniac: It’s weird, I agree. But winning more delegates to secure a victory sounds vaguely familiar…I can’t quite place it…oh well, I am sure it will come to me eventually.

  81. 81.

    Cacti

    @NR:

    Right, we made up all that $$$ Hillary took from Wall Street, just like her supporters made up the “English only” bullshit.

    Oh, wait.

    Your feelings matter, little Bernfeeler. More than anyone else’s.

    Just ask any Bernfeeler.

  82. 82.

    JordanRules

    @John Cole: Pssh, whatever, it’s a push cart that needs to be turned around and it will.

    Won’t be any worse than the Puma crap that remained after the last Dem bout. As others have mentioned above, there wasn’t much to that.

  83. 83.

    Brachiator

    @Corner Stone:

    So, just read this article on Feminist Hell at Wapo.

    It’s satire.

    A clue: Alexandra Petri writes the ComPost blog, offering a lighter take on the news and opinions of the day. She is the author of “A Field Guide to Awkward Silences”.

    ETA: Obviously, satire can include serious points.

  84. 84.

    gwangung

    @NR: I’d be careful about wording this, given Dolores Huertas’ stature as a Latino community organizer.

  85. 85.

    aimai

    @NR: So why do the bernie people seem to think that calling everyone who supports HRC a sellout, a proto war criminal, a lover of the plutocracy is a winning strategy? A vote is a vote is a vote and a voter is a voter is a voter. The democrats will need every vote in the general election. Perhaps both sides should stop slagging each other and remember that the real enemy is the republican party?

  86. 86.

    LanceThruster

    @Anne Laurie:

    But Bernie Bros are the real deal? Turns out the “English only!” claims were bogus too, but a whole lotvof BJers got on that train.

    The Dem nom’s got my vote…but I’m gonna stand by my preference until that’s not an option. I live in CA so I could risk a Jill Stein vote (so it’s in no way an anti-woman position). I think if she had run as a Dem, she’d be my preference over Bernie even.

  87. 87.

    smintheus

    @Belafon: Clinton’s own victory speech sounded like she wanted us to accept that the cake is all but baked, esp. the ‘you kids need to learn to pipe down and go out and volunteer for something besides Bernie’ bit. Her supporters have picked up the inevitable-again meme and pushed it pretty hard.

  88. 88.

    NR

    @gwangung: I don’t care if she’s Mother Theresa, the Pope, and the Dalai Lama all rolled into one, there’s video of the caucus, and what she says happened did not happen.

  89. 89.

    Cacti

    People or groups that I’ve learned are sell-outs, establishment, or liars from the supporters of the Sanders 2016 campaign:

    The Clintons
    President Obama
    John Lewis
    Dolores Huerta
    James Clyburn
    Al Franken
    BlackLivesMatter
    Planned Parenthood
    The Human Rights Campaign
    Julian and Joaquin Castro

    Getting pretty crowded under that bus.

    But let’s talk about your feelings and how sensitive they are.

  90. 90.

    JMG

    @aimai: Here in Mass., over 40 percent of voters are registered independent. Many are Republicans when it comes to voting in general elections, who register independent in order to vote in Democratic primaries, not to make trouble per se, but because it’s often the de facto general election for offices below the level of governor or national offices.

  91. 91.

    Pandemoniac

    This is going to change.

    With over 450 Superdelegates pledged, it will at some point. The DNC has made the call, not the voters.
    As Cole sez, that train has left the station and is in full motion. All we’re waiting for is the coronation.
    And if you read my earlier post, you’d know I think it is super hilarious that Al thinks Sanders supporters will back anyone other that HRC.

  92. 92.

    max

    @Corner Stone: I had my problems with WJC as president but he is an amazing retail politician and campaigner. WTS, I really wish the HRC campaign would let him out and about a little less.

    And strangely enough, I have the opposite reaction, going back to my initial take on Bill. I like her better than him – but that isn’t saying much. The more she brings him out, the more I remember about the main things I *didn’t* like about the 90’s.

    That is one of the many reasons I pretty much backed Obama from the start – skin color or sex wasn’t the issue.

    max
    [‘Today has been an impressive display in sore winnerism.’]

  93. 93.

    Anne Laurie

    @John Cole:

    I’ve said from day one I am voting for who ever has the nomination.

    I’d never deny anyone the pleasure of a long-held grudge, but it might be easier on your acid reflux if you tried thinking “What signs of improvement am I seeing in the Democratic race today?” instead of “How is that untrustworthy Hillary and her half-witted crew of loyalists going to irk me even further?”

    Sometimes people can pleasantly surprise you! I mean, that Repub jerk John G. Cole finally saw the light, didn’t he? :)

  94. 94.

    The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016

    @smintheus:

    So it’s already over?

    Its late February and Sanders still isn’t making inroads on the African-American vote, so, um, yes. Yes, it is.

  96. 96.

    different-church-lady

    @LanceThruster:

    but a whole lotvof BJers got on that train.

    By “a whole lot” do you mean roughly three?

    At least one of which recanted?

    (And yes, they deserve to be roundly mocked.)

  97. 97.

    Cacti

    I don’t understand how Bernie could have lost NV.

    He brought out all of the working class heroes like Susan Sarandon and Gaby Hoffman.

  98. 98.

    aimai

    @LanceThruster: This whole “english only” thing is a tempest in a tea pot. Have you ever been in a caucus? I have. Its noisy and confusing. There was a real incident. There was a real incident with lots of people shouting back and forth and conflicting experiences (experiences, not accounts) of a set of words including “English Only” said by the moderator. There was a situation in which the moderator and the people running the caucus were not prepared, didn’t have spanish language interpreters, asked for help from the audience and then publicly rejected the help of a well known Latina activist. They rejected the help for perfectly good reasons, I might add. But she and other people in the room only heard the rejection and they tweeted it out. It wasn’t a lie at all. It was a faulty/partial report of an actual event.

    The point of sayign this is that everyone is a motivated reader/listener and reporter in the age of twitter and blogs. Things get blown out of proportion, bad motives are attributed, and things circulate forever as soundbites. What I take away from the “english only” episode is that Bernie’s supporters are NOT racists. Bernie’s supporters might take a breather and realize that the various clips and jibes and half understood lines they’ve been sharing with each other (“Bill Clinton said X, HRC said she was “friends” with Kissinger) are also partial, garbled,and probably not representational of the totality of another person’s political life and work.

  99. 99.

    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)

    Well, I know what I have learned from reading BJ comment threads this winter:
    Hil is a wall street owned corporatist, pro 1%, unelectable insensitive cow supported by assholes
    Bern is a racist, out of touch, unelectable pipe dreamer supported by assholes

    Since neither is electable and both have assholes in their camp I guess I can stay home in November and remain true to my beliefs.

    So thanks for all this guys, you have convinced me not by telling me why I should support your candidate but making it very clear why you think nobody should ever support the other candidate.

  101. 101.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @John Cole: “Hey all you sexist racist kids who want free shit just given away, no hard feelings, amirite?”
    Good luck turning this Clinton made freight train around.

    You are spending waaaaaaay too much time on twitter. I think.

  103. 103.

    Brachiator

    @aimai:

    Independents are not actually swing voters. People claim they are “independents” for a variety of reasons but I think studies have shown that very few of them are actually swing voters. They generally vote a straight party line but often think of themselves as choosing “the person, not the party.” Its mostly ego and self deception.

    Just not true. The self deception is among those who insist on dismissing independent voters.

    Why people are independent varies by state and region. In California, the number of independents rivals the number of those who declare for a particular political party.

    The obvious thing is that independents aren’t happy with Republicans or Democrats. Trump has probably gathered in a hefty bunch of these independents; Sanders is doing well with another, overlapping group. If Trump and Sanders ultimately fail to win their party’s nomination, the votes of these people will be up for grabs.

    This makes it doubly strange for anyone to write independents off or to pretend that they are unimportant.

  104. 104.

    aimai

    @JMG: I’m in Mass. They aren’t registered independent. At least last time I worked an election (2008) they are registered as “unenrolled” and do they EVER hate being called unenrolled. People will even argue with you that they are “really” idependents because that has more cachet.

  105. 105.

    gwangung

    @NR: And if Mother Teresa said something ocurred that did not actually occur, one does not necessarily call her a liar, given that she could have misunderstood it or misheard it.

    Yes, I still think you should be careful of your wording.

    ETA: Or what aimai said.

    Still think you should be careful of your wording.

  108. 108.

    aimai

    @Brachiator: Its not true. I’m really sure that is not accurate. Independents tend to vote for the same party over and over again. They are not swing voters.

  110. 110.

    justawriter

    So now that we apparently have the next couple elections wrapped up, who do we like for the 2024 election? I think if we really want the wingers heads to explode, we should go with Keith Ellison, a guy who actually is a Muslim.

  113. 113.

    Anne Laurie

    @NR:

    just like her supporters made up the “English only” bullshit.

    Not that I doubt the sincerity of your grievance, but were I a Sanders supporter, I’d go with “I’m sorry Dolores Huerta misunderstood the circumstances, in a chaotic caucus situation”, not “some HRC supporter made up BS”. Because Huerta probably has a lot more fans than some guy on the internet, y’know?

  114. 114.

    kped

    @aimai: Same. Except little babies. They terrify me. How are they walking towards the door unattended?? What madness is this?

  115. 115.

    Daulnay

    I’m having a lot of trouble supporting any economic conservative, whether it’s Trump, Clinton, or any of the Republican establishment. We’ve had 35 years of no economic growth for the middle class and working class, thanks to Reagan, the Bush mob, and Clinton. We need to return to the tax levels, corporate regulation, and enforcement of the liberal era. Clinton won’t do that. She’s been pro-TPP, and even though she’s officially flipped, rumors have it that she will ‘see the light’ once she’s elected and vote for it again.

    Economic conservatives have made a lot of arguments that less regulation and free trade will benefit the country. After 35 years of this, there has been no economic improvement for the middle and working class. Zero. All the benefits of free trade, less regulation, and the rest have gone to the upper < 20%, and most to the 1%.

    The rest of us have fought over what's left, a zero-sum game. Improvements to working/middle-class non-white incomes hurt working/middle-class white incomes, improvements to working/middle-class female incomes lower working/middle-class male incomes. Nobody in the lower 80% improved their economic lot, except when someone else's got worse — that's how averages work. No average gain means nobody benefits except at someone else's expense.

    We cannot continue like this. Trump feeds on this kind of stuff, and it rings true because it is true in a limited way, if you don’t look beyond the state of things to the causes. Which are the neo-liberal economic policies of the last 35 years, which Hillary supported and helped the DLC pass. She’s been part of the problem, and I don’t see that changing.

  116. 116.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @aimai: I agree with your take. My wife, J, has been reading lots of things at Daily Kos, though, that reinforces her view that Bernie is being smeared here. “She’s got a history of doing this!!11” I fear that this episode is going to be used to try to cause lots of sore feelings that will make things difficult in the fall.

    I do wish people would keep an eye on the big picture and not get so worked up over things like this – that get on Twitter and take a life of their own.

    But maybe this will be the latest 15-minute outrage-storm that blows over and only the die-hards remember. We can hope!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  117. 117.

    NR

    @gwangung: Her tweet from yesterday is still up. If she retracts her statement and apologizes for her mistake, I will have no problem giving her the benefit of the doubt. Until then, if the shoe fits….

  118. 118.

    smintheus

    @aimai: HRC is friends with Kissinger. They vacation together. She praises him in her book. He rolls logs for her. Where is there any doubt about the strength of their ties?

  119. 119.

    different-church-lady

    @smintheus:

    She’s probably already canceled the remaining debates on her own.

    Not before Debbie Wasserman Schultz eats a live baby in a secret ceremony. Bylaws, you know.

  120. 120.

    aimai

    @Brachiator:From the Washington Monthly:

    The party affiliation results in our national poll are fairly consistent with results from a recent Pew survey and other public polls. We found that 26 percent of voters identified themselves as Republican, 36 percent as Democrat, and 36 percent as Independent.

    If we eliminate the voters who say they are Independent but lean towards one party, what’s left are just 20 percent of voters who say they do not lean in one direction or another. A third (33%) of voters either identify with the Republican Party or lean in that direction, and 45 percent identify or lean towards the Democratic party.

    As we see above, 20 percent of voters in our poll self-identify as “Independent” and do not acknowledge that they lean towards either party, and the same percentage (again, 20 percent) of voters fall in the ideological center – that is, they see themselves as more liberal than Republicans and more conservative than Democrats. If these two groups – true Independents and true moderates – consisted of the same voters, then the term “Independent” would indeed be a useful identifier, and campaigns would have a somewhat healthy number of voters to pursue.

    Unfortunately, these two groups are far from overlapping.

    As the chart below shows, 15 percent of voters who call themselves Independent actually place themselves ideologically in line with one of the parties in Congress (“Democrats with a Home” and “Republicans with a Home”); these voters seem simply to be uncomfortable labeling themselves as a member of a particular party, or prefer to think of themselves as Independent even if the label is not accurate.

    The largest group (37 percent) of those using the Independent label actually consists of voters who place themselves on the edges of the political spectrum: strong liberals and conservatives who think Democrats and Republicans are in fact too moderate. These voters use the term “Independent” to mean they fall outside of party lines, but not to mean they fall between the two parties ideologically.

    In fact, among the voters who identify themselves as “Independent” in our poll, only a quarter – just 5 percent of the overall electorate – fall into the standard, commonly-used definition of an Independent: voters who do not identify with a party and at the same time place themselves ideologically between Democrats and Republicans

  121. 121.

    Peale

    @Corner Stone: ok. I could see it with Cruz. Sometimes you’re born in Canada and you can’t really change that. But Rubio? Is trump really going with “kids born here don’t count if their parents are Hispanic” route?

  122. 122.

    Brachiator

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):

    Since neither is electable and both have assholes in their camp I guess I can stay home in November and remain true to my beliefs.

    You have clearly missed my comments or those made by others who refused to demonize either candidate.

    And there are those who despise both candidates, but who still insist, loudly and with some reason, vote Democrat because Supreme Court.

    I presume that you may be joking about staying home in November, but if you do, it’s all on you.

  123. 123.

    The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016

    @smintheus: Meanwhile, black America has far more to worry about than if Clinton is being ‘coronated’ or whatever.

  124. 124.

    Belafon

    @LanceThruster: Lot’s of people jumped on it because, if it had been true, it would have been a bad thing. We all know people on both sides do idiotic things – see the Sanders supporter that tried to get a Clinton obituary put in a Nevada newspaper. It really did sound bad.

    It’s good that it was false. From what I can tell, a moderator said no translation since they couldn’t find someone who was neutral. I don’t know how you would find such a person who is neutral and yet at a caucus. Why the woman decided to say the there was chanting, I don’t know.

    But this is no different than the 24 hour rule for killings. And I know both sides have done this jumping on a ‘fact’ before finding out if it’s true.

  125. 125.

    scav

    @aimai: I have vague memories that one could register as “Independent” in CA, but what I really wanted was “Decline to State” because there was some sort of party or infrastructure at the time along those lines. I do seem to think that it’s been observed that Independents as a class weren’t exactly swing voters.

  126. 126.

    gwangung

    @NR: So, basically, you’re saying that you NOT giving her the benefit of the doubt now? Because what she said hurt Sanders?

  127. 127.

    aimai

    @smintheus: I am not surprised that members of the smallest club in the world, people who have been secretary of state, are social acquaintances and use polite language to talk about each other or even, for the purposes of social events, label themselves friends. Really, I’m not. It doesn’t make every single person who has broken bread with Kissinger since he worked for Nixon the equivalent of a mass murderer. Kissinger and Nixon’s sins are their own.

  128. 128.

    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)

    @different-church-lady:
    I don’t know, is Jill Stein running again?
    How about Gary Johnson, Virgil Goode or Rocky Anderson?

    I have not heard anything bad about any of those guys so they must all be better than Clinton or Sanders. None of those people have assholes supporting them from what I have heard here.

  129. 129.

    different-church-lady

    @Anne Laurie:

    I’m sorry Dolores Huerta misunderstood the circumstances

    Hell, I’m sorry she misunderstood the circumstances. She ought to be sorry about it too.

    I’d be more vocal about it, except that it just opens the door for more squid-ink of butthurt (or whatever the heck the phrase is). At this point I’m just out of inclination to stroke the delicate psyches of people determined to be outraged and offended by every single damn thing, and it doesn’t even matter they’ve finally got something legit to take some small amount of offense at.

  130. 130.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @NR:
    You made up a truly bizarre conspiracy theory to suggest that a top-level Sanders campaign staffer stealing Clinton’s campaign data was, somehow, a nefarious plot by Clinton and DWS.

    Are we even, now?

    @smintheus:
    At this point, the state-by-state polls say that it would take a miracle for Sanders to win. He had great come-from-behind momentum in several states. Not enough, but he had them. He just lost two of those states. He’s expected to lose South Carolina, and get royally cheesed on Super Tuesday.

    A miracle could happen! But he would need one.

  131. 131.

    smintheus

    @Anne Laurie: I’m with NR on this. Dolores Huerta is not some innocent in all this. She was being told that she was not trusted as a neutral party to translate for the crowd because of her support of Clinton. Then she turns right around and tweets something that appears to substantiate the very critique of her bias that people on the scene in NV were making.

    Gloria Steinem has street cred as well, but that doesn’t mean she was not capable of getting way out of line in her comments.

  132. 132.

    different-church-lady

    @gwangung: No, what he’s saying is he’s never ever EVER going to let us forget that one of Clinton’s people made a bonehead.

  133. 133.

    gene108

    @NR:

    Well I mean, I personally just love being called a racist, it totally inspires me to go out and vote for Hillary in November.

    I love being dubbed as a tool for Wall Street and a “corporatist”, who wants to keep incomes unequal and college ridiculously expensive.

    It makes me jacked to vote for Sanders.

  134. 134.

    JMG

    @aimai: You’re right, of course. I actually agree that unenrolled is kind of a demeaning term, kind of like they aren’t registered at all.

  136. 136.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Pandemoniac:

    With over 450 Superdelegates pledged, it will at some point. The DNC has made the call, not the voters.

    Damn that evil DWS for creating those Superdelegates!

  138. 138.

    WaterGirl

    @sparrow: If I were polled, I would count in the “really doesn’t like Hillary Clinton” category. What I want to know is if the polls that ask whether you like Hillary also ask: “Will you vote for Hillary Clinton if she is the democratic nominee?”

    That’s the question that needs to be considered more than “do you like Hillary?”. My far-more-conservative-friend (as compared to me) volunteered on the way to dinner last night that if Trump is the democratic nominee, he will vote for Hillary Clinton. I could tell from the tone of his voice that what he was saying was not a happy thing. We weren’t even talking politics! I don’t think we had made it to the end of my street before he said that.

    My friend is very smart, and regardless of how he feels about Hillary, he knows that trump would be a total fucking disaster.

    edited

  139. 139.

    Tripod

    @aimai:

    You are correct.

    Convincing swing voters and getting non-likely Democratic leaners to the polls are important to an HRC victory, but that won’t have much to do with Bernie Sanders come November.

  140. 140.

    Darkrose

    @scav: When I first registered to vote in 1988 in California, I registered independent, only to find out that I couldn’t vote in the D primary. Since I’d wanted to cast my first vote for Jesse Jackson, I was pretty disappointed.

  142. 142.

    smintheus

    @aimai: You’re minimizing their relationship. They vacation together every Christmas in the Dominican Republic. The people I hang out with every Christmas I consider my family friends.

  143. 143.

    kped

    @Anne Laurie: He had a twitter freak out because a campaign surrogate approvingly tweeted to a 17 year old girl who wrote an article on Slate about bernie-bros at her school…he’s too far gone in the Clinton hate, let him act out until the primary is over…hopefully he gets it out of his system then. For his health/sanity more than anything.

  144. 144.

    different-church-lady

    @WaterGirl:

    My far-more-conservative-friend (as compared to me) volunteered on the way to dinner last night that if Trump is the democratic nominee, he will vote for Hillary Clinton.

    Weird. It’s almost as if people were individuals, with individualized and unpredictable views on things.

  145. 145.

    kc

    I like he how starts out with a plea to “both side” to ratchet down the rhetoric and then goes on to whine exclusively about “berniebros.”

    Fuck that guy.

  147. 147.

    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)

    @Brachiator:
    I have worked in every election cycle since 1956. I have voted in every election since I was eligible to vote. I expect to do both again this year. I just am bone tired of the same whiners having the same whiny “arguments” about who is worse, Clinton or Sanders. Nobody here is actually trying to argue that their guy is better only that the other guy is satan incarnate. It is boring, repetitive, unconvincing, pointless, annoying, tedious, unhelpful, ugly, counter-productive, asinine,

  151. 151.

    gene108

    @Pandemoniac:

    And if you read my earlier post, you’d know I think it is super hilarious that Al thinks Sanders supporters will back anyone other that HRC.

    I’ve heard enough call-ins on C-SPAN’s Washington Journal show stating Sanders is choice number one and Trump choice number two that it is something that should not be ignored.

    Why does Sanders think he can appeal to disaffected voters, who back Trump?

    Why would this cross-over appeal not work going the other way?

    There’s a big fuck-you going on in this election to people, who are are see as being part of the system. Sort of reminds me of 1992, when the fuck-you vote went to Perot.

  152. 152.

    LanceThruster

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The point being that the rancor between the two camps is real. There are some from both sides that feel the other candidate has positions that make them wholly unworthy of their vote.

    I’ll hold my nose for her if I have to, but would rather not while there’s still a chance for a candidate that is steering in the direction that I want this country to go.

    Her anti-BDS stance (whether for the money or she really feels the Palestinians deserve being endlessly brutalized) is enough of a one issue to preclude my vote (and Bernie on the I/P confliict is only marginally better), but the other side is a whole lot worse.

    I’d argue for IRV, but the integrity of our voting sytem is without a doubt in question, and gerrymandering is absolute evidence of the corruption.

  153. 153.

    Cacti

    @smintheus:

    I’m with NR on this. Dolores Huerta is not some innocent in all this. She was being told that she was not trusted as a neutral party to translate for the crowd because of her support of Clinton. Then she turns right around and tweets something that appears to substantiate the very critique of her bias that people on the scene in NV were making.

    Of course you are.

    But the reality was, Huerta offered to translate and to have a pro-Sanders Spanish-speaker up there with her to make sure everything was above the board. But even that wasn’t good enough for Berniebros. Huerta doesn’t support Sanders herself, so unclean! unclean!

    Nice Hispanic outreach. ;-)

  154. 154.

    WaterGirl

    The ghost of my (beloved) long departed father has just walked down the hall to say to his three daughters Balloon Juice: “Why can’t you kids just get along?”

  155. 155.

    different-church-lady

    @gene108:

    I’ve heard enough call-ins on C-SPAN’s Washington Journal show stating Sanders is choice number one and Trump choice number two

    OK, so now we know what crackpots think. The only remaining data point is how many of them are there.

  156. 156.

    NR

    @gwangung: Because what she said was not true.

    If she is everything you are saying she is, then I’m sure that she will soon come out and admit that she was wrong and apologize for her mistake. If she does that, I will accept that it was an honest mistake and move on.

    If she doesn’t do it, you may have to face the possibility that your perception of her is incorrect.

  157. 157.

    Brachiator

    @aimai:

    Its not true. I’m really sure that is not accurate. Independents tend to vote for the same party over and over again. They are not swing voters.

    In California, independents voter for the Govenator over Gray Davis. This was true even though California independents tend to vote for Democrats.

    The best analysis of California independents indicate that they are ideologically divided. But since the California GOP has decided to become politically irrelevant at the state level, you don’t see independents swinging towards Republicans on a statewide basis.

    Also, to clarify, Trump has done well with non-voters, people who have felt so alienated and kicked to the curb that they felt it pointless to participate, no matter what their political leanings might be.

    From a yahoo news story:

    About one in 10 Americans who plan to cast a vote this election will do so for the first time in years, if ever, and Trump holds a decided edge with them…

    In Reuters/Ipsos polling from June to December 2015, 27.3 percent of these “new” voters said they would vote for Trump, higher than his poll numbers among independents and Republicans who regularly vote.

    By way of comparison, Cruz captures just 3.4 percent of these voters. And Senator Marco Rubio of Florida snags only 4 percent.

    These voters are not interested in mainstream Republicans. Period. Of course, if Trump is ultimately dumped, these potential voters may sit out the election, especially if the Democrats are unable to offer them anything.

  158. 158.

    Elie

    @smintheus:

    Ruth Bader Ginzburg was dear friends with Antonin Scalia — they traveled and vacationed together. They truly loved each other it seems. It did not change her decisions one whit — she used his decisions to tighten her own logic. It must be hard but truly, these people in very high appointed positions have a very different view of the world and are much less, well, parochial about how they live their lives. They can have friends “on the other side”, something you apparently would never consider and think of as some sort of major betrayal to all you believe. Let me just finish by saying this: you are not on the same wavelength with not only these folks but many other people with less absolute views of things.

  159. 159.

    aimai

    @smintheus: Apparently they are both friends of the same ridiculous person, Oscar de la Renta who invites them both to his estate. Horrific. I wouldn’t socialize with Kissinger and I consider him a terrible person but then I also wouldn’t socialize with Oscar de la Renta. So what? No one who gets near power in this country is going to come out the other side without having to take advice, shake hands with, talk to, or negotiate with some pretty awful people. Even Sanders. If he hasn’t had to yet its only because his career, though noble, has been inconsequential. I mean except for sucking up to the NRA.

  161. 161.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @aimai: Wait, people that have headed the part of government in charge of diplomacy are diplomatic? (My shocked face.)

  162. 162.

    JMG

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): Amen. People who actually work in politics, at least the ones on the Democratic side, don’t think or talk like this at all. They’re looking to make more friends or at least supporters, not alienate folks they might need later. The only place I know of where politics is an overwrought psychodrama is the damn Internet. It’s about trying to create a more effective and just government, not creating a warm inner glow for the voter.

  163. 163.

    smintheus

    @Cacti:

    Of course you are.

    You seem to be assuming I’m a Berniebro, apparently just because I’m willing to criticize Clinton and her supporters on some points.

    When Huerta explains why she sent out an inaccurate condemnation of Sanders’ supporters, and why she has taken so long to correct it, I’m prepared to take her viewpoint more seriously.

  164. 164.

    kc

    @aimai:

    I wouldn’t socialize with Kissinger and I consider him a terrible person but then I also wouldn’t socialize with Oscar de la Renta.

    Of course only one of those two people is responsible for mass killings.

  166. 166.

    aimai

    @Brachiator: I agree with you. Trump is very attractive. But he is attracting voters who are not going to be attracted to Sanders. I know Sanders supportesr think so but I think that is dubious. And there are people on the other side, the kind of people who would never vote for Trump, who will vote for the Democratic nominee regardless of who it is. I’m not worried that HRC has a worse chance than Sanders. I think she has a better chance because she and her team are more experienced politically and because she is unflappable while Bernie suffers from a tendency to shoot his mouth off and get up on his high horse. These are the kinds of situations that Trump loves to exploit. He’s good at getting under people’s skin and he won’t manage that with HRC.

  167. 167.

    kc

    @aimai:

    @NR: So why do the bernie people seem to think that calling everyone who supports HRC a sellout, a proto war criminal, a lover of the plutocracy is a winning strategy?

    Let me pose you a question: Why do the HRC people seem to think that calling everyone who supports Sanders a sexist (even the women), a racist (even the people of color), or an ignorant youngster is a winning strategy?

  168. 168.

    Pandemoniac

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Damn that evil DWS for creating those Superdelegates!

    DWS is a very serious, capable, well-meaning DNC leader. Rounding up 450-something Superdelegates for HRC is quite a feat. It seems somewhat sexist of anyone to suggest otherwise. Gooooo Hill!
    If the Supers jumped on the juggernaut, who cares if the less-than-supers get squished? Isn’t that the way juggernauts work?

  169. 169.

    smintheus

    @Elie: How many other Democrats consider Kissinger a close friend, and praise his work to the point of falsifying Kissinger’s sins, and are eager for voters to know that Kissinger praises them in turn?

    Please spare me the ‘you just can’t see beyond your own blinkers’ condescension.

  171. 171.

    Mike J

    @Cacti:

    I don’t understand how Bernie could have lost NV.

    He brought out all of the working class heroes

    And proved that he respected labor by having his workers cosplay as union members to get access to lunchrooms.

  173. 173.

    kc

    @smintheus:

    Perhaps she really did mishear and perhaps the reason she hasn’t retracted her statement yet is that it’s been so thoroughly debunked she doesn’t feel the need to?

    I dunno, just trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.

  174. 174.

    Brachiator

    @Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):

    I have worked in every election cycle since 1956. I have voted in every election since I was eligible to vote. I expect to do both again this year. I just am bone tired of the same whiners having the same whiny “arguments” about who is worse, Clinton or Sanders.

    I hear you. Again, I am saying that there are many posters here who have not just talked about who is worse between Sanders and Clinton But even here, politics is supposed to be a raucous often contentious discussion.

    Hell, I get tired of the people who have argued incessantly since 2008 that Obama betrayed them over the public option, but I keep coming back for the insights of people like Richard Mayhew.

    Anyway, hang in there. I think that the level of angry discourse will increase for a time as more primaries come up. But there things will lighten up eventually.

  175. 175.

    henqiguai

    @JMG(#90):

    Here in Mass., over 40 percent of voters are registered independent.

    No, they’re ‘unaffiliated’. ‘Independent’ is a registered party here in Massachusetts. Case in point, me. I’m unaffiliated, because, well, I’m not a joiner, and I really don’t want all the noise (junk mail, phone calls, emails) that come with actually registering my party preferences. Granted, the poll workers here in my little ‘burg almost automatically hand me a Democratic ballot when I walk in…

  176. 176.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Elie: OMG, I just remember that I had a Republican over for not only Christmas dinner but Thanksgiving as well. Will I ever be able to atone for this sin?

  178. 178.

    George Hayduke

    Leave it to Anne to declare a Clinton victory when Sanders has > 50% of the popular vote, and > 50% of the pledged delegates.

  179. 179.

    kc

    Sort of off topic, but the local newspaper quoted a South Carolina voter who says he voted for Obama in 2012, but voted for Trump in the GOP primary yesterday.

    People are weird.

  181. 181.

    smintheus

    @aimai: Now you’re argument is simply getting confused. Are you implying that the Clintons are obligated to socialize every Christmas with Kissinger? Because if it’s their choice, and their choice to promote Kissinger’s praise of HRC, then that says something about their mindset…the very point I and others make about them.

  182. 182.

    Cacti

    @kc:

    Perhaps she really did mishear and perhaps the reason she hasn’t retracted her statement yet is that it’s been so thoroughly debunked she doesn’t feel the need to?

    I dunno, just trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.

    Or maybe she heard what she heard and doesn’t feel the need to explain herself to the likes of you.

    Dolores Huerta also ranks in the category of “Done more to advance the human condition in this country than the entire millennial cohort combined”.

    But let’s talk some more about YOUR feelings, shall we? They’re really important. Have you been validated enough today?

  183. 183.

    Heliopause

    @smintheus:

    I don’t know if anyone has brought this up in comments yet, but Huerta is not just a Clinton supporter, she is a rather intense one, who in 2008 accused Obama of union thuggery, voter suppression, and indifference to Latino concerns. Bit of lightning rod as it were.

  184. 184.

    different-church-lady

    @Cacti:

    But let’s talk some more about YOUR feelings, shall we? They’re really important. Have you been validated enough today?

    Look, this is really getting out of line now.

    Please proceed.

  186. 186.

    aimai

    @kc: Its not a winning strategy–its not a strategy at all. You are linking up random comments by random people into a “strategy.” Bernie is responsible for his outreach to categories of voters and is responsible for satisfying those voters. Or enough of them to make a difference. BLM and others have told Bernie over and over again he needs to up his game with them and not take them for granted. Older women have told him that he needs to take their issues into account and not collapse it all into economic populism. Some older women have also said some dumb things about younger voters–whether they did that because older voters and younger voters have different interests or because they were women I can’t say. But at the end of the day nobody but Bernie can get the votes of people who are suspicious of him. So he’d better get cracking and not rely on his whiny supporters to convert skeptics into followers. Because you are doing a piss poor job.

  187. 187.

    gene108

    @Daulnay:

    Income inequality is a problem all over the world. The U.S. has the worst problem, but it’s happening everywhere to some extent, including Sweden.

    We can fix some of things, with a stronger social safety net and better reinvestment in education, and higher taxes on the rich.

    But no one is really sure, why the rich are getting richer faster than everyone else.

    So I’m not jumping on solutions, at the moment, other than the band-aids that are offered, such as higher taxes on the rich, lower cost higher education, etc. But I do not think any of these will return us to the income differences of the 1950’s and 1960’s. Or make a big impact in real earnings for most people.

  188. 188.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @kc: I notice I haven’t seen any Billmon tweets posted here lately, how odd.

    Who’s stopping you?

  189. 189.

    BGinCHI

    Anyone think HRC will pick Bernie for VP and then turn him loose on some of the interests she has used but doesn’t really like?

    Bernie as a more pragmatic Biden?

    He could go after Wall St. and she could just shrug and say “well, that’s Bernie.”

    Trying to find a silver lining here….

  190. 190.

    smintheus

    @Heliopause: No, no one has said much about St. Huerta except that she lied this time about anti-Spanish ‘chanting’ and hasn’t apologized.

  191. 191.

    Ready

    With Jeb having bowed out for the good of the party (and, in typical Bush fashion, doing it with gentlemanly grace) it’s time to unite-I’m #READY4RUBIO!

    Young. Latino. Handsome. Conservative.

    And now that the big corporate donors are coming on over from Bushworld, Rubio is going to have a veritable gusher of dollars exploding into his bank account. Private equity firms, the big banks, the fossil fuel industry, and every billionaire that matters is going to go to the mat. By their POWERS COMBINED, they will annihalate Trump. Rumor is the Koch Bros wanted to save their money for the general , but now Americans For Prosperity is going to open up the money spigot to take down Trump (Google Our Principles PAC).

    Rubio–for a New American Century!

  192. 192.

    aimai

    @smintheus: OK. You really care about Kissinger. I really don’t. I also don’t think the majority of Democrats care about Kissinger. No one runs a country like the US without blood on their hands. Sins of omission or sins of comission. That has been true since the founding. Ask the native americans. Ask our African American citizens. If Sanders is pure now, right this moment, he won’t be five minutes after he takes the oath of office. He will end up being responsible for avoidable deaths somewhere, somehow, inevitably. And he will break bread with, and confide in, and socialize with people who have done so. That’s the job.

  193. 193.

    Doug R

    @aimai:The elusive “independent” voter. Generally ashamed republican, just wants to “hear both sides ” before they vote republican. Well, at least they keep the village employed.

  194. 194.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Anne Laurie: Not that I doubt the sincerity of your grievance,

    Oh, NR is grievance personified, and typing. There’s nothing else to him (don’t know why I always assume trolls are hims, but I do). Constantly outraged, constantly poo-flinging, constantly useless.

  195. 195.

    Cacti

    @BGinCHI:

    Anyone think HRC will pick Bernie for VP and then turn him loose on some of the interests she has used but doesn’t really like?

    Probably not, for the reason of 69 year old ticket topper and 74 year old Veep.

  196. 196.

    fuckwit

    This ain’t even over. The Dems are going right up to the convention, like in 2008.

    I might agree that when (not if) Troll wins the Clown Car R nomination, Hillary would be a better debater and have a better story for the general (she has metric fucktons of experience, Troll has zero). But if it does come down to GOTV, the totebaggers who fret seriously about Bernie’s health care and budgets aren’t going to decide anything.

    I do think that Hillary will squeak out a win at the last minute, just before the convention, as Obama did in 2008. I also think Bernie will campaign his ass off for her, and will end up with whatever position in his administration he wants. And he’ll crush it too.

    Also, after Troll ends up as the nominee, then he, Troll himself, will drive the young people out to vote in historic numbers– against him. There’s no way they’re going to stand back and let that douchenozzle get elected.

    Consider this Bernie-bot completely pleased to vote D, whomever it is, and hoping Bernie fights to the end, and maybe even pulls it off.

  197. 197.

    danielx

    @Corner Stone:

    Is it now unacceptable for me to do that for women any longer? Am I making some statement I am unaware of by holding doors or elevators, etc for a woman?

    No, and no, although in the latter case you may be giving a signal that you actually have manners.

    My folks didn’t make me suffer through an evening a week at Mrs. Gates’ dance class for nothing.

  198. 198.

    Pandemoniac

    @Amir Khalid:
    You are absolutely correct. I was just responding in kind to BillinGlendaleCA for suggesting that DWS had anything to do with the Superdelegate count. It seemed funny at the time. I apologize if I didn’t make myself sufficiently clear that I was being a total goofus.

  199. 199.

    different-church-lady

    @aimai:

    If Sanders is pure now, right this moment, he won’t be five minutes after he takes the oath of office the moment he starts naming cabinet postitions.

    We’ve seen this movie.

  200. 200.

    Cacti

    @smintheus:

    No, no one has said much about St. Huerta except that she lied this time about anti-Spanish ‘chanting’ and hasn’t apologized.

    How does Dolores Huerta not apologizing to you make YOU feel?

    Let’s talk it over. Have you been validated enough today? You’re special.

  201. 201.

    ruemara

    @John Cole: You seriously have a hard on for Bernie if that’s what you’re taking away from this. You need to put down your “I’m always right and you should agree with me” glasses.

  202. 202.

    The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016

    @Ready: And while we’re talking about politics as self-validation, who should come around but the spineless self-esteemless chucklefark who never found a GOP bandwagon he wouldn’t desperately chase after!

  205. 205.

    sparrow

    @gene108:

    But no one is really sure, why the rich are getting richer faster than everyone else.

    It’s called neoliberalism, and it’s working as intended. Workers’ rights worldwide are on the decline. You NEED strong unions, and strong government protections or else this is the natural result of capitalism run amok. As much as socialists like myself like to point to Europe as a place they are doing (marginally) better, most parts of Europe have actually been under a much worse neoliberal attack than the US in recent years (simplest example is the austerity imposed after the crisis versus the stimulus here).

  206. 206.

    kc

    @Cacti:

    Or maybe she heard what she heard

    What she says she heard, no one else heard and is not on the audio. That’s why I said perhaps she misheard. Again, I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt.

  207. 207.

    different-church-lady

    @danielx:

    …although in the latter case you may be giving a signal that you actually have manners.

    Lord knows there’s nothing else about Corner Stone that signals it.

  209. 209.

    Rob

    Everyone accusing us “berniebros” of everything from misplaced idealism to outright stupidity keep overlooking the simple fact that many of us simply do not trust HRC and the DLC sellout crowd that supports her. I for one refuse to bow down to her inevitable coronation.

  210. 210.

    smintheus

    @aimai: There are plenty of former Secretaries of State. None are as heinous as Kissinger. It shows terrible judgment or character to court Kissinger; even worse to tout his approval of you and portray his crimes in glowing terms. This is not trivial as you seek to portray it. Sneering at Sanders as a nobody who just doesn’t get invited to rub elbows with the best people doesn’t cut it either.

  212. 212.

    Cacti

    @kc:

    What she says she heard, no one else heard and is not on the audio. That’s why I said perhaps she misheard. Again, I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt.

    Mighty white of ya.

    Have I told you that you’re special and that your feelings matter? You are and they do.

  213. 213.

    gwangung

    Consider this Bernie-bot completely pleased to vote D, whomever it is, and hoping Bernie fights to the end, and maybe even pulls it off.

    This is not a problem with me. I think polling indicates that most Dems feel this way.

    It may also indicate that the voters just don’t see that much difference between the two (particularly in respect to Republicans)….

  214. 214.

    Kay

    @smintheus:

    There was a version of this same fight in 2008, as you noted. It’s a political campaign. People do the things they do in political campaigns. In 2008 it was v Obama and this year it’s v Sanders.

    Back then the union thugs were on the other side and turnout machines were bad and undemocratic.

  215. 215.

    Applejinx

    @Mike J: Don’t call her a dried old old harridan. She’s a very determined and ruthless politician who will go to great lengths to win and get the things she wants at any cost, fair or foul.

    I’d like to co-opt her and turn that energy to the Left because I don’t believe for a second she’s tied to 80s Clinton thinking. That’s crazy talk. She is a blank slate for winning votes, and not necessarily faithful to anybody or anything. That’s a strength for us as well as a weakness, if we can manage to steer her, co-opt her.

    It looks pretty likely that she can be made into a genuine social/racial/gender justice crusader. Maybe even a gun-control crusader. We need those things.

    Every Clinton smear about racist Berniebros is a form of committment to actually giving a shit and doing something about the appalling state of racial injustice in this country. If it’s lies to win primaries, but she sticks with those positions, lives are saved.

    I’d like to see her forced to promise better infrastructure programs than Bernie could make happen. With her connectedness, it could even happen, but it might never happen unless she thinks it needs to happen to win election and of course re-election. No WAY would she want to be a one-termer, when Bill had two.

  216. 216.

    kc

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Who’s stopping you?

    Oh, I’m sorry, hon, I didn’t mean to confuse you. I was referring to the FPers.

    I don’t know how to embed tweets in comments, and the last time I tried to post several links, I got put in moderation. So that’s what’s stopping me.

  217. 217.

    Pandemoniac

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    Will SOON be winning the less-than-supers. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, now. They are dead even in the less-than-super count, as of this writing. But she will SOON be winning the pledged delegate count. Still . . . counting chickens and delegates before they’re hatched, and all that. Sheesh. SMH.

  219. 219.

    Cacti

    @Rob:

    Everyone accusing us “berniebros” of everything from misplaced idealism to outright stupidity keep overlooking the simple fact that many of us simply do not trust HRC and the DLC sellout crowd that supports her. I for one refuse to bow down to her inevitable coronation.

    Your feelings are important and you’re special.

  223. 223.

    Belafon

    @Rob:

    I for one refuse to bow down to her inevitable coronation.

    I remember the inevitable coronation in 2008.

    I was actually about to say just being a Bernie supporter doesn’t make you a Berniebro until I saw that.

  224. 224.

    Doug R

    @Daulnay: Stop fighting NAFTA with the TPP. NAFTA just formalized what was happening already, plus Mexico got a manufacturing base out of it. That’s probably why there was a net surplus of migrants heading south to Mexico last year. Besides, don’t you want Vietnamese workers to be able to organize for rights and higher wages?
    And I would LOVE to sell them more cherries.

  229. 229.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @BGinCHI: What does a VP do, independently of the POTUS? as chair of a committee, he could hold hearings, as a national figure with some independence he could barnstorm for other candidates, he could join in the whole “make her do it” thing much more effectively.

    @kc: good god! You would have had to cut and paste more than once? Jesus, is there no end to the tyranny of the Clintonites? I’m voting for Bernie until Hillary takes her cloven hoof off the neck of (checks up thread) Billmon.

  230. 230.

    different-church-lady

    @Rob: Au contraire: I’ve always suspected the latter was the far more potent motivating force than the former.

  232. 232.

    Cacti

    @Mike J:

    I understand they’ll be giving out participation trophies at the Convention this year.

    The first one will be for best virtual tie in the Iowa Caucuses.

  233. 233.

    Joel

    Even though the PUMAs were effectively meaningless, they were still shouting through November. The trolls will hang on no matter what, which is why Giordano’s advice is particularly pertinent.

  235. 235.

    smintheus

    @Kay: Agreed. And I’m quite certain that if the Clinton camp were as certain that victory was now inevitably in their grasp, they wouldn’t feel the need to trumpet that in ways that would irk Democrats who haven’t been supporting Clinton. Telling people it’s over when obviously it is not over would be a bizarre way of reaching out beyond your base.

  236. 236.

    BGinCHI

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: If the Senate flips, yeah, I get it.

    I think Biden redefined what a VP can do as an attack dog. You don’t think Bernie could provide her cover to do some things? I’m seriously asking.

    Maybe it’s because I think the Senate is a shit place. And VT will replace him with a progressive, so it’s no loss.

  237. 237.

    Cacti

    @Applejinx:

    I’d like to see her forced to promise better infrastructure programs than Bernie could make happen.

    You’d like to see her forced to promise something better than nothing?

    That’s a pretty low bar.

  242. 242.

    Gimlet

    does Hillary Clinton share her husband’s (and Barack Obama’s) interest in a so-called “grand bargain” along Simpson-Bowles lines, one that makes Social Security less of an insurance program and more of a welfare program?

    Two thoughts. One, this is something she needs to say clearly, her plans for Social Security. Two, Barack Obama said his Social Security plans clearly in 2008, then in 2009 he reverted from his 2008 populist self to his 2006 austerity-loving neoliberal self.

    Bernie Sanders has been pretty clear about actually expanding Social Security and Medicare.

  243. 243.

    Pandemoniac

    @gene108:
    I think that is a pretty good parallel. Perot as Trump works well, see also Palin as Stockdale.
    I do think there is some overlap between Trump and Sanders supporters as there is with any other super-massive groups of people. I just don’t think that there’s a significant number. This story by the NYT tells me that Trump supporters are a whole different kind of human than Bernie supporters. spoiler: not a lot of mooslim-hating, gun-loving, religion-clinging, whatever Palin was raving about in her support of Trump.
    Berniebros tend to be more from the Occupy movement than the Burfer movement.

  244. 244.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @BGinCHI: Maybe it’s because I think the Senate is a shit place.
    There is that. But I think there’s a better than even chance of a flip, barring any major destabilizing events.

    I think Biden redefined what a VP can do as an attack dog. You don’t think Bernie could provide her cover to do some things?

    I think he would be more effective as an outsider-on-the-left, now that his profile has been elevated, especially working in tandem with Warren, maybe with Brown and potential media magnets (I never know what’s gonna get their attention) like Harris and Duckworth.

  245. 245.

    Ruckus

    @smintheus:
    Scalia and RGB were friends. And on completely other sides of issues. Most of us have some friends who are conservative. I have a friend of well over 40 yrs who is. We decline to discuss politics because it leads to shouting matches and isn’t worth the time. We are never going to persuade each other to switch sides. We’ve tried. It doesn’t work.
    None of this suggests that Clinton and Kissinger agree on anything political. As Molly Ivins said “As they say around the Texas Legislature, if you can’t drink their whiskey, screw their women, take their money, and vote against ’em anyway, you don’t belong in office.”

  246. 246.

    Heliopause

    @smintheus:

    Here

    “[We] went to see Obama to get some support for Elvira Arellano. He not only refused to help them, but he didn’t even bother to go see Elvira..when they went to see Senator Obama, he refused to help them… So I don’t believe that he has that kind of courage and that kind of judgment. Or let’s say, is it judgment or is it wisdom or whatever? But he chose not to be associated with one of the biggest causes that we have in our community”

    and here

    “But United Farmworkers’ Union co-founder Dolores Huerta went further, accusing the Culinary Workers Union of intimidating Clinton supporters and keeping them away from the caucuses. Union leaders are telling Clinton backers if they don’t vote for Obama, ‘they won’t get transportation, they will be fired,’ Huerta said. She also argued that Clinton has a ‘cultural, political and social relationship with the Latino community, which Senator Obama does not have.’ Latinos call Clinton ‘Hilaria,’ Huerta said, adding derisively that they call Sen. Obama ‘Como se llama?’ (as in ‘What’s his name?’)”

  247. 247.

    Applejinx

    @Daulnay: This. We have to establish that the neoliberal economics thing is a catastrophe that will only continue to happen.

    Trump cannot be allowed to run to the left of Clinton should she get the nomination.

    I would, however, point out that saying ‘Clinton backed X, Y and Z and thus can be trusted to stick to her principles and continue to push these things’ is pretty hilarious. You do realize she’ll do whatever polls the best? I don’t believe for a second she’s wedded to neoliberal policy. It depends how publically discredited it is. If it appears to be a sinking ship she’ll ditch it in a hot minute and tell you that she never actually espoused any of that stuff, ever.

    In the event of a Clinton candidacy our job becomes to establish how discredited the neoliberal stuff is. She’ll cave. This is not the Nineties, nor the Eighties.

  248. 248.

    Bob in Portland

    I must have missed the funeral announcement.

    Clinton won Iowa by less than a percentage point. She lost NH by twenty points. She won NV by five points. It’s over?

    How come so many here are so wed to neoliberalism?

  249. 249.

    The Sailor

    @Cacti:

    Huerta offered to translate and to have a pro-Sanders Spanish-speaker up there with her to make sure everything was above the board. But even that wasn’t good enough for Berniebros.

    But the Bernie supporters didn’t make the decision, the moderator did, (the only person who said “English only”).
    There’s video of it.

  252. 252.

    NCSteve

    I support Hillary and expect her to win the primary. But this is ridiculous. It’s over after Iowa, New Hampshire and Nevada? Don’t those of us who live in states with populations that aren’t rounding errors get a say?

  253. 253.

    Cacti

    @Bob in Portland:

    I must have missed the funeral announcement.

    Clinton won Iowa by less than a percentage point. She lost NH by twenty points. She won NV by five points. It’s over?

    How come so many here are so wed to neoliberalism?

    Howdy, Bob.

    Looks like minorities weren’t Feeling the Bern after all, and it wasn’t just a conspiracy of the capitalist media pigs. ;-)

    I’d say Viva la Revolucion, but Sanders supporters oppose Spanish translations from non-Bernfeelers as a matter of principle. So, Long live the Revolution!

  254. 254.

    St. A

    @smintheus: I just googled Hillary Clinton and Dominican Republic, and every source that popped up on the 1st page did mention Hillary’s vacation (vacation singular, as far as I could tell at a cursory glance), but every source on the front page re: this factoid came from something like Fox, Breitbart, Weekly Standard, Free Beacon, etc. Not that this would make me suspicious of your statement or anything like that….

  256. 256.

    gwangung

    @The Sailor: Didn’t the video show the crowd cheering the decision? Maybe the crowd didn’t hear the offer from the pro-Sanders speaker? And Huerta thought the crowd was cheering the “No English” part of the decision? I thought it was clear at least some folks were against her involvement.

  257. 257.

    smintheus

    @Ruckus: Sorry, not buying it. Scalia and RBG worked together. I have neighbors and co-workers who I’m friendly with despite our political disagreements. That is different from cultivating a friendship with somebody you need not have anything to do with. It’s also different from plumping in public your friendship with someone who has committed war crimes.

  258. 258.

    Brachiator

    @aimai:

    I agree with you. Trump is very attractive. But he is attracting voters who are not going to be attracted to Sanders.

    I am not a Sanders supporter, but I think that many of these voters will be up for grabs, especially if Trump is defeated by Rubio or Cruz for the GOP nomination. Sanders would have a chance at these voters, because they feel let down and abandoned by the system, and they don’t trust mainstream Republicans. And Clinton would be foolish not to try to go after these voters.

    And there are people on the other side, the kind of people who would never vote for Trump, who will vote for the Democratic nominee regardless of who it is.

    I agree with you here, but this is a separate issue.

    I’m not worried that HRC has a worse chance than Sanders. I think she has a better chance because she and her team are more experienced politically and because she is unflappable while Bernie suffers from a tendency to shoot his mouth off and get up on his high horse.

    I’m not sure that Bernie has ever shot his mouth off in this campaign, and I don’t think that horse he gets on is all that high.

    More importantly, I don’t know much about the professionalism of Clinton’s current team, but she is definitely flappable. You saw this in the 2008 primary campaign. I think she has learned much from some of the errors of her 2008 campaign, but the plain fact is that she has been in only 3 political contests in which she was the contender, her 2 NY senate campaigns and her 2008 presidential campaign. And in her second senate run, the competition was painfully weak.

    Both Trump and Baby Rubio will come at her hard. And the wild card will also be how the parties appeal to voters. There may be an intensification of stupid gender factors (white men vote for Republicans, and do so vehemently when there are sharp ideological divides). Sanders may campaign hard for Clinton, but his supporters may not come along.

    Much may depend not only on reliable Democrats showing up, but on the degree to which Clinton can win over more than the usual suspects.

    Anyway, we will see what happens next. Some clues may be how everyone adjusts to the post Nevada and South Carolina political landscape.

  259. 259.

    Daulnay

    @Doug R: The trade pacts have been bad for the working class and middle class. All the smoke about how they would create jobs and raise the standard of living for almost everyone was so very false. I believed them, back in the day, but the only people they’ve made better off are the ones in the top 20%. Benefiting only 1/5 of us isn’t good enough,l especially since absolutely none of that ‘benefit’ has trickled down.

    The evidence points more and more to them being good only for the wealthy, at least in the U.S., and that’s what you’d expect from trade theory; countries with an excess of capital will see greater returns to capital and lower returns to labor (the U.S.), and countries with an excess of labor will see lower returns to capital and higher ones to labor. (Mexico, India, China). The world as a whole may be better off, but 80%+ of Americans got completely shut out of the benefits of economic growth for 35 years. That’s too high a price.

    What I’d like to see is Eisenhower-era levels of taxes on the wealthy, enforcement of the laws against phony transfer pricing, and fierce anti-monopoly enforcement. All that’s ‘off the table’ to the neo-liberal Dems, who would rather we paid attention to the culture wars.

  260. 260.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016: And this is something we need to remember. When it’s time to fall in line, the obedient sock puppets of the GOP always do. And they vote. All of the folks on our side of the political divide need to keep this in mind and stop the circular firing squad bullshit.

  261. 261.

    SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel

    @justawriter:

    I think if we really want the wingers heads to explode, we should go with Keith Ellison, a guy who actually is a Muslim.

    Only if his running mate is Hank Johnson, a Buddhist.

    Those annual prayer breakfasts would never be the same.

  262. 262.

    Trentrunner

    @Ready:

    [Rubio:] Young. Latino. Handsome. Conservative.

    OK, I’ve been a discriminating assessor of male attractiveness for over five decades.

    Young Rubio may be many things, but “handsome” he is not.

    His ears are large and strangely shaped, his hair is both thinning and receding, his skin has a greenish hue in certain lighting, and he is soft and pudgy in the middle. And he actually, ironically or tragically, has childbirthing hips (as does Cruz).

    I’ve known handsome men. I was raised with handsome men. I work with handsome men. Senator Rubio, you are not a handsome man.

    (Although his two boys are beyond adorable.)

  263. 263.

    Bob in Portland

    @Heliopause: My union used to March with Huerta. Not sure what her history is with Clinton, and I’m not sure how much her endorsement means. Endorsements are like Cliff Notes. Great shortcut if you don’t want to read the book.

  264. 264.

    smintheus

    @Heliopause: Thanks. Tends to confirm my impression of what Huerta was up to in this instance.

    Rather ironic for Huerta’s defenders here, isn’t it, that she was offering herself up as a translator for what was being said in that crowded hall, but they’re claiming she’s just a victim of her own inability to hear correctly what was being said.

  266. 266.

    different-church-lady

    @Brachiator:

    And Clinton would be foolish not to try to go after these voters.

    Depends entirely on what she’d have to do to get those voters, no?

  267. 267.

    Brachiator

    @Ruckus:

    None of this suggests that Clinton and Kissinger agree on anything political. As Molly Ivins said “As they say around the Texas Legislature, if you can’t drink their whiskey, screw their women, take their money, and vote against ’em anyway, you don’t belong in office.”

    This was California Democratic politician, Jesse Unruh, not Molly Ivins. But I agree with you completely. It’s just wrong and a waste of time to try to tie Clinton to some kind of political guilt by association.

  270. 270.

    Chyron HR

    I used to think Sanders’ supporters were just being disingenuous when they whined about PUMAs, but now I realize they sincerely believe PUMAs are hated for supporting Hillary and not because they:

    1) Flipped their shit every time their candidate suffered any kind of setback,
    2) Whined that any results of every state they lost were illegitimate,
    3) Paradoxically insisted that if their opponent shouldn’t be allowed to win the primary election because they’re inherently “unelectable”, and
    4) Threatened to sit out the general election if their candidate didn’t get the nomination.

    You know, the things that now characterize the rank and file of the Sanders camp.

  271. 271.

    A Ghost To Most

    Stupid me; I thought that the death of Fat Tony would convince us all to put this shit aside for the good of the Supreme Court.

  274. 274.

    The Sailor

    @gwangung:

    “And Huerta thought the crowd was cheering the “No English” part of the decision? I thought it was clear at least some folks were against her involvement. “

    Huerta tweeted that the crowd was chanting it. That was a lie. And why would you allow a translator wearing a Clinton t-shirt?
    [ETA]
    The caucus should have thought to have provided an interpreter. For hearing impaired people, too.

  275. 275.

    Elie

    @smintheus:

    I actually have no idea how many Democrats do that — do you? I wasn’t meaning to be condescending — just truthful in how I saw an issue. Apologies if that is how you took it. People make curious friends sometimes. Not sure why

  277. 277.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    @Gimlet: What do you mean? Barack Obama is probably the only leader in the western world who DIDN’T fall for the austerity crap.

  278. 278.

    Ruckus

    @smintheus:
    You are a one note band, a single string guitar. One tiring ass, you are. And we are supposed to be on the same side.
    A small piece of advice, get the fuck over yourself. It makes life nicer. And lets people make a decision to maybe listen to you. Cause I bet most of us here won’t be listening much longer, it’s a waste of our time.
    We get you like Sanders and HATE Clinton. Message sent, message received.

  279. 279.

    Applejinx

    @different-church-lady: It’s possible she could make a case that she will go and actually work with government to have it do things, like not shutting down every five minutes. She could promise pork for people’s districts. It would be a plausible thing for her to promise.

    If we’re talking disaffected Republican Trump voters, part of that could be them believing Trump would go in there, clean house and start doing things, building stuff. She can promise to start doing things and building stuff, and say the establishment Republicans are dedicated to sitting on their hands and doing nothing. It would be the truth and also what Trump was saying.

    She could say the Republicans are slaves to the wealthy and special interests, selling their jobs overseas for the benefit of the rich. It would be true. She could say she’s representing the true spirit of Sanders’ populist movement except she can get things done by virtue of having all the connections. That’d be partly bullshit, unless she decided 2016 Clinton should be exactly that, in which case she might at least put up a good front.

    No racism or sexism. That’s off the table. I think that’s not actually a big enough demographic to court: I think that’s an unforced error on the Republican side and underscores their demographic problems in a big way.

    It’s not THAT unreasonable for Clinton, in the event she gets the nomination, to try to get Republican turncoats by offering to be less radical and more plugged in to what passes for a functional government.

    We on the Bernie side are seeing, regularly, just how plugged in she actually is, and how many strings she can pull. The big question is, for what purpose?

  281. 281.

    Elie

    @smintheus:

    Of course, if you just want the issue as a reason to believe that she has a similar evil character, well, nothing more need be said.

  282. 282.

    A Ghost To Most

    @Baud:
    I wish. I started here when Harriet Myers (sp?) was nominated,and John lost his shit.

    If this preznit gig doesn’t work out, I hear the post of blog deity is open.

  283. 283.

    Bob in Portland

    @The Sailor: These are the kinds of crap you get with a Clinton campaign. This, and the recitation of who is financing her, makes me less likely to vote for her. When I vote for a candidate while holding my nose a lot of Dems will just stay home. It’s the nature of the beast.

    The more the campaign goes on the more Clinton will alienate the Left.

    Does anyone here think we will have fewer wars and coups and third world disasters with Clinton than with Obama? And, if anything, she is more warlike than even Trump, although I expect any of the Repubs will be herded along like Dubya.

  285. 285.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Ruckus: Molly was stealing that from Jessie “Big Daddy” Unruh(Speaker of the CA Assembly and later State Treasurer).

  286. 286.

    gene108

    @sparrow:

    It’s called neoliberalism, and it’s working as intended. Workers’ rights worldwide are on the decline. You NEED strong unions, and strong government protections or else this is the natural result of capitalism run amok.

    I’d argue, in the U.S., at least the difference is in the unemployment rate.

    When the U.S. closed the gap on income inequality, unemployment rates were very low, especially in the post-WW2 years, until the oil shocks and stagflation of the 1970’s. The only time the U.S. approached the low unemployment rates of the post-WW2 era was in the late 1990’s, when real wages actually started to increase for people.

    I don’t think the U.S has ever really ventured very far away from neoliberalism.

    I’d also argue, for women and minorities, work place protections are better than they were in the “good old days” of 90% top income tax rates.

  287. 287.

    Brachiator

    @different-church-lady: RE: And Clinton would be foolish not to try to go after these voters.

    Depends entirely on what she’d have to do to get those voters, no?

    No.

    HRC can steal a page from Obama’s book. I find it interesting that even though Obama tried to appeal to all voters, and also tried to convince Republicans that he was not the devil, there are Democrats and liberals to this day who thought that Obama was foolish, that he should have written off or even demonized Republican and conservative citizens, called them sociopaths and psychopaths and ammosexuals, treated them as unworthy. You know, like we do in blogs.

    But blogs ain’t politics.

  289. 289.

    Ruckus

    @Brachiator:
    Molly said that about the Texas legislature, as the quote says. I knew the quote and when I looked it up her’s was the first that came up. It’s a good quote, whomever said it, and it applies to most politicians prior to the last 15-20 yrs. Compromise is a necessary part of human group existence and people who can’t or who won’t frequently get nothing by being absolute.

  290. 290.

    gwangung

    @The Sailor:

    And why would you allow a translator wearing a Clinton t-shirt?

    Why would you not, if you also have Spanish speaking Sanders supporters?

    Though it seems a little over privileged for English speakers to deny a translation of any sort in a state with substantial number of Spanish speakers.

    (Agreed that the organizers should have had translators there; however, if there were Spanish speakers on both sides, I’m not sure why that wouldn’t be sufficient)

  291. 291.

    Brachiator

    @Daulnay:

    What I’d like to see is Eisenhower-era levels of taxes on the wealthy,

    People keep saying this, even among Balloon Juicers, and I have no idea why.

    High Eisenhower era marginal tax rates were not, are not, the same thing as high effective tax rates. And Eisenhower era tax rates did not prevent fantastic fortunes from being made or abate horrendous degrees of income inequality. They did not result in an outpouring of massive wealth redistribution programs.

  292. 292.

    different-church-lady

    I’m beginning to think there are a lot of people on this blog who say very stupid things.

  293. 293.

    smintheus

    @Elie: How is it even controversial that HRC chose to befriend a disgraced Nixonite whom many other Democrats wouldn’t touch with a barge pole?

  294. 294.

    Technocrat

    @Applejinx:

    She’s a very determined and ruthless politician who will go to great lengths to win and get the things she wants at any cost, fair or foul.

    I’m a dyed-in-the-wool Clinton supporter, and I agree with this. I know it’s impolitic in this day and age to say you value power, but I do. LBJ was a complete bastard, and black people benefited from that bastardhood.

    She is a blank slate for winning votes, and not necessarily faithful to anybody or anything.

    I don’t so much believe this. I suspect that after the Hillarycare debacle and her husband’s impeachment, her political arc has been geared toward amassing enough power to do – things – that are in fact deeply held goals. But you can’t implement your goals if you don’t have a seat at the table. Or, in Hillary’s case, if you don’t have influence with everyone sitting at all the seats at all the tables.

  295. 295.

    MomSense

    @gene108:

    The looming problem that we don’t speak of is that the resources of our little planet cannot sustain the kind of growth that makes it possible for everyone to have the idealized middle class American lifestyle (meaning stuff). At some point we are going to have to live differently.

  297. 297.

    St. A

    @smintheus: I haven’t read DC extensively but my general impression is good–however, there was a fair amount of spin in the piece you linked, what with phrases like ‘looking to boost her resume,’ ‘wrote a fawning article,’ ‘Clinton lovefest,’ and so on, which didn’t make Corn seem impartial. And that’s in addition to the ‘HRC regularly vacations in the DR, and therefore she regularly vacations with Kissinger at Oscar de la Renta’s’ formula that Corn employs.

  298. 298.

    Technocrat

    @sparrow:

    It’s called neoliberalism, and it’s working as intended. Workers’ rights worldwide are on the decline. You NEED strong unions, and strong government protections or else this is the natural result of capitalism run amok

    I don’t think strong unions would have protected buggy-whip manufacturers when automobiles became a thing. One of the crushing economic realities of modern life is that the value of unskilled human labor is rapidly declining. Hell, the value of skilled human labor is declining.

    Ask your accountant about it the next time you drive to his office to do your taxes.

  299. 299.

    Raven Onthill

    I wish you guys would stop the hippie-punching. “Berniebros” is just the latest iteration of that. (I know there are real ones. I also know there aren’t very many of them and Sanders reviles them.) The DFHs have been right much more than wrong. And why should the DFHs, or the Sanders supporters fall into line when they’ve every reason to expect to get stiffed, not by Clinton’s supporters but by Clinton herself?

    At 55:18 the caucus moderator (not Sanders’ supporters) simply stated that the inability to locate a neutral translator meant the caucus would continue in “English only.” At no point did any Sanders supporters appear to have refused a translator based on the fact that translation was objectionable to them; nor was “English only” used in a pejorative fashion.—Snopes

    At best, Heurta let her expectations alter her perceptions and memories. She has spread a falsehood about Sanders supporters, that, like many of those about Hillary Clinton, that will never be entirely discredited.

    F’ing hippie punching.

  300. 300.

    SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    You don’t remember Agnew, do you?

    Ha! Nattering nabobs of negativism.

    (Actually, I believe that was one of William Safire’s lines, but it’s indelibly associated with Agnew.)

  302. 302.

    Applejinx

    @Technocrat: This. It’s way past time for that kind of strong-arming again, and as I’ve said upthread that’s the hidden blessing of all the ‘racist white Berniebro’ sliming the Clinton people are doing. If they really really mean that and aren’t just using whatever attacks are handy, that means they are fully on board with #BLM and prepared to double down on it.

    It’s time for that. Americans are being murdered, jailed, it’s completely beyond acceptable, and when I push for Bernie it is in the understanding that he leaves that issue less fully addressed. Again, it’s the issues for me: if Hillary could be guaranteed to run with all Bernie’s issues, especially neoliberalism’s part in income inequality, then I’d not have bothered with Bernie: I would have gone with the younger, far more well-connected candidate from the start, because I want power behind that agenda.

    If we have to lose the economy (not necessarily a given…) but can gain civil rights where we need them most, I count that not a failure, and just hope I survive the crash in store when the economy goes even more flatline and can’t even pretend anymore. Best case scenario is massaging those goals a little to where Hillary wants a piece of the populist, socialist wave. It could be a real political windfall.

    It doesn’t have to be Bernie presiding over a return to GDP trendline. It could just as well be Hillary taking credit for that, and she is certainly in a better position to put the needed pieces together IF she saw fit, and was President. There would certainly be armtwisting when you’ve got Republicans rejecting health care and federal funding just because it’s a Dem giving it, and she’d be trying to give infrastructure jobs or a whole new Big Government platform for employment. There’s lots of stuff that could be done, and all of it would be a tough fight. We’re seeing both Sanders and Clinton showing they’re down for a tough fight.

  304. 304.

    Ruckus

    @Technocrat:
    There should be a limit to bastardhood. LBJ did wonders but a what cost? A lot of those who died in his political trade off of Vietnam for civil rights were black. Was that a proper trade off? No one knows the answer to that because he didn’t (at least publicly) make or try to make any other deal. A lot of people paid a huge price and 50 yrs later, I’d say the progress is not nearly enough. Better than nothing? Absolutely but it was such a high cost that it has, IMO stifled progress. Could there have been a better way? An unanswerable question, we are left with what was, not fond wishes.
    Which brings up your second point. Shouting and demanding everything doesn’t work either. Effort and compromise is all there is. Of course the other side of the aisle is determined to not compromise on anything so progress is, right now, almost dead in it’s tracks. And will remain so without politicians to do their jobs.

  305. 305.

    Raven Onthill

    I wanted to take this position, I really did. But the more I learn about Clinton, the more disgusted I get. (Friend and mentor Henry Kissinger? Really? Funded by the TBTF bankers and with social and family connections them? Really?)

  306. 306.

    The Sailor

    @gwangung:

    Why would you not, if you also have Spanish speaking Sanders supporters?

    I agree, but the decision was made by the mod, not the campaigns.

  307. 307.

    Technocrat

    @Raven Onthill:

    What would you have me say? Is it better to pretend it’s not happening?

    On the upside, it’s easier to become rich than it has ever been. So there’s that. It requires a specific set of skills, but they are skills that are cheap to acquire.

  309. 309.

    Raven Onthill

    @aimai: “You really care about Kissinger. I really don’t. […] No one runs a country like the US without blood on their hands. Sins of omission or sins of commission.”

    That’s what war criminals and gangsters say. Substitute “Pol Pot” for Kissinger. Still think it still sounds OK?

    “I also don’t think the majority of Democrats care about Kissinger.” Probably not; he’s been whitewashed. But that is not to our credit. Why do you think the USA has so many enemies worldwide?

  310. 310.

    Applejinx

    @MomSense: The interesting thing is, the same mechanism that’s obliterating the middle class is the mechanism that could lead to everyone having that Star Trek future where poverty’s a thing of the past.

    Automation, robotics, computers, solar power: we are NOT bound to fossil fuel energy. We are NOT bound to only what can be accomplished with teams of people working on things. Increasingly our world’s revolutionized by small groups of people acting essentially as cyborgs and cornering the market through technological power.

    We have rampant inequality and infestations of billionaires because our system has been slanted away from the collectivist/socialist for literally decades, on purpose, by people who actively want things to be winner-take-all in the belief that will motivate everybody best.

    They’re wrong: you have to water the lawn, not just the tallest blade of grass, or it all dries up and blows away, tallest blade included.

    We CAN have moderate wealth for all, in terms of things and comfortable subsistence (and I’m not talking subsistence farming, or hunter/gatherer, either). What we can’t have is everybody wealthy, or everybody famous. The scarcity will become scarcity of MEANING, not simple survival. It’ll become a big popularity contest, not a Darwinist struggle for mere existence.

  311. 311.

    Technocrat

    @Ruckus:

    A lot of those who died in his political trade off of Vietnam for civil rights were black. Was that a proper trade off? No one knows the answer to that because he didn’t (at least publicly) make or try to make any other deal.

    No, this is an excellent point. I’m sure philosophers could write volumes about that particular tradeoff.

    Humans are apex predators. We don’t have the luxury of not being evil, on some level, at all times. It’s all tradeoffs.

  313. 313.

    Applejinx

    @Technocrat: I’m pretty up on the ‘technocratic’. I think you’re maybe a little bit out of touch here, possibly because you made it through the window before democratization of access flooded the market with labor.

    I did the same thing: if I had to start an audio plug-in business in 2016, I’m pretty sure there’s no way I could possibly do it. Back when I started, $60 a plug-in was cheap. I’m only still around because I got a foothold back when you still could. It’s becoming an open source world. It’s like saying you can get rich by writing hit songs. Um, nope. In 2016, you can get to have hit songs by STARTING rich and using that money to buy access plus also being brilliant and writing hit songs. It’s already becoming that way for ‘technocratic’ things.

    Pretty sure that’s done. You can’t do that anymore. I’m not sure what you can do, really, which is why I’m so gung-ho for Bernie Sanders. I see the system as having already failed, and we need to do a graceful shutdown and reboot in another form before it blows up in earnest.

  314. 314.

    Applejinx

    @schrodinger’s cat: Yes, I agree with that. Notably, wartime was an opportunity to do extensive deficit spending, and it wasn’t ‘privatize everything and have Halliburton sock the money away overseas’, either. Finance was just not nearly as globalized then, and postwar there really weren’t that many other economies to store cash in, and America ended up being the place people spent business money to do things.

    Neo-liberal is much more globalized and actively seeking to store money anywhere other than the United States.

  315. 315.

    Raven Onthill

    @Technocrat: the structural unemployment hypothesis has been falsified with regard to the current depression. Maybe it will eventually be valid, but as regarding the current explosion of inequality, technological obsolescence is not the story.

    “they are skills that are cheap to acquire” speaks someone who probably could afford his education and had the right combination of background and talents going in.

  316. 316.

    Rob

    Keep insulting us. Wake up in January to a President Trump and a big stupid “wha’ happened” look on your face.

  318. 318.

    AnotherBruce

    @John Cole: It’s your blog, but it’s not helping to join the circular firing squad. If we kill enough of each other, we get President Trump.

  319. 319.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Friend and mentor Henry Kissinger?

    the source of Kissinger as a mentor to Hillary? Oldest quote I found was something Honest Bernie said off the cuff a couple of months ago.

  320. 320.

    henqiguai

    @AnotherBruce (#319):

    If we kill enough of each other, we get President Trump.

    No! According to Rob #317 it’s if we keep bruising their (Bernie-supporters’) delicate feelings.

  321. 321.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Raven Onthill: I wish you guys would stop the hippie-punching

    The combination of self-aggrandizement and delusion of martyrdom in this bleat is almost funny.

  322. 322.

    CT

    Wow. One of these Berniebros just called aimai a war criminal. Great site you’re running here Cole.

  323. 323.

    SiubhanDuinne, Annoying Scoundrel

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Safire was a speechwritter for Nixon and did some work for the VP. I think Pat Buchanan takes credit for that line(he was also a speechwritter for Nixon and Agnew).

    Pat Buchanan, like the rooster, would take credit for the sun rising in the east if it suited his purposes. But most of the sites I (very quickly) googled seem to agree that “nnon” was one of Safire’s contributions.

  326. 326.

    AnotherBruce

    @Rob: So will you, so what’s your point? Fucking grow up. I’ll vote for Bernie if he’s the pick. This election isn’t about you or me and how insulted we are.

  327. 327.

    Monala

    @aimai: we can also talk about another friendship recently highlighted: Ginsburg and Scalia. Is RBG less trustworthy because she considered Scalia a friend?

  328. 328.

    Daulnay

    @gene108: Workplace protections for women and minorities are better, but I would like to have improvements for everyone. And if not everyone, at least improvements for minorities and women that don’t actually hurt white men. A zero-sum society is very, very bad — and that’s what we have (for anyone who isn’t in the 20%).

    I don’t think we’ll get away from a zero-sum society until we have a highest-level tax bracket that discourages what passes for ‘entrepreneurship’ (cheating, fraud, and screw-my-workers businesses). It may actually discourage some “job creators”, but in a competitive (actually free from rigging) market, other people will step up and create jobs.

  329. 329.

    DCF

    @Cacti:

    It’s quite clear throughout this comment thread (and others) that the only ‘feelings’ that matter to you are your own…Cole was right…you are an a**hole….

  330. 330.

    AnonPhenom

    @John Cole:
    This.
    In a cycle where Dems are getting their ass handed to then in turnout (Turnout so far in the primaries has favored Republicans. More Republicans than Democrats turned out in the Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primaries, and Republican turnout in both was significantly higher than in 2012 and 2008. Democratic turnout in both, in contrast, was significantly lower than in 2008.) Clinton supporters have decided to spike the ball before half time and indulge in their favorite pastime from the 1990’s … Hippie punching.

    if they think they can win while insulting and blowing off the guy pulling the big crowds, so he’s not working so hard for Hillary this Fall, more power to them.
    But if you thought the butt hurt from the Gore camp about Nader and Fla. in 2000 was pathetic, just wait for the cries of Dolchstoßlegende if Hillary loses because “the BernieBros didn’t show” on November 4th.

  331. 331.

    Daulnay

    @Brachiator:

    High Eisenhower era marginal tax rates were not, are not, the same thing as high effective tax rates. And Eisenhower era tax rates did not prevent fantastic fortunes from being made or abate horrendous degrees of income inequality. They did not result in an outpouring of massive wealth redistribution programs.

    I don’t want to prevent fortunes being made, though I do want to prevent massive hereditary wealth — it’s bad for a republic (just echoing Jefferson and Adams here). What those high marginal rates do is discourage and hinder the amassing of wealth. It shifts the trade-offs that executives make, and makes high executive pay kind of pointless. It in effect encourages wealth-sharing, so that massive redistribution programs aren’t necessary. (I am kind of assuming that executives aren’t entirely irrational, and that they do see some benefit to paying workers somewhat well, especially if not doing so just sends money to the government.)

  332. 332.

    DCF

    @Pandemoniac:

    The game is rigged…this is not a news flash…if anyone should find this assertion startling, what can I (or anyone else, for that matter) say in response?….

    I had written an extended comment that – for the second time today – went into moderation and then into the Twilight Zone of the intertubes…so for the sake of fairness (and a slightly unbalanced perspective), I urge you to read this article on Emptywheel dated February 11:

    Biased Pluralism and the Defense of “Reality” in the Democratic Primary
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2016/02/11/biased-pluralism-and-the-defense-of-reality-in-the-democratic-primary/#comments

    Ultimately, the paper showed that our system provides what interest groups want, not what the majority want. Importantly, it also noted that the interest groups that have influence don’t actually represent the preferences of the average citizen (which is defined to be policies supported by a median income voter).

    But net interest-group stands are not substantially correlated with the preferences of average citizens. Taking all interest groups together, the index of net interest-group alignment correlates only a non-significant .04 with average citizens’ preferences!

    It explains this, in part, because there are so many more interest groups (which include corporations) representing the interests of the economic elite that ultimately they’ll guide policy even when including those interest groups representing the interests of the non-elite.

    As a result, majoritarian views — what most Americans want — have almost no influence on policy.

  333. 333.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @smintheus: that’s a long way from “mentor”

    @AnonPhenom: In a cycle where Dems are getting their ass handed to then in turnout

    if they think they can win while insulting and blowing off the guy pulling the big crowds,

    one of these things is not like the other.

  334. 334.

    Daulnay

    @Technocrat:

    On the upside, it’s easier to become rich than it has ever been. So there’s that. It requires a specific set of skills, but they are skills that are cheap to acquire

    Um, no. It’s harder than ever to get out of the working/middle class. We used to have a lot more social mobility than most of Europe, now we’re significantly worse. If you’re talking tech/software engineer/programmer, that’s a pretty specialized set of skills that require talents many people lack. Not everyone can be a good programmer/electrical engineer/etc. Those skills are not especially ‘cheap’ to acquire, either.

    The problem is neo-liberalism, and its taste for austerity rather than Keynesian deficit spending. If Europe hadn’t been ruled by neo-liberal austerians, it would be in a lot better shape — just ask Krugman.

  335. 335.

    VFX Lurker

    @AnonPhenom:

    in 2000 was pathetic, just wait for the cries of Dolchstoßlegende if Hillary loses because “the BernieBros didn’t show” on November 4th.

    The “BernieBros” won’t vote for Hillary, period. I’ve been blocking BernieBros on Facebook for months. To a man, each BernieBro declared that America deserves a Republican president if Bernie loses the primary. They honestly think that a socialist paradise will emerge if enough women lose access to birth control.

    I’ll settle for reaching out to Bernie’s more pragmatic supporters.

  336. 336.

    Technocrat

    @Applejinx:

    I’ve read your posts, so I don’t doubt your bona fides at all. But Flappy Bird – one of the most simplistic games ever – was written in 2013 by a single developer. It earned $50,000/day at it’s peak. Minecraft was written by one guy, and sold for 2 billion dollars. PewDiePie is a YouTube celebrity who earns upwards of 7.5 million dollars a year by making videos.

    These are new opportunities, unique to the post-Internet world.

    @Raven Onthill:

    the structural unemployment hypothesis has been falsified with regard to the current depression

    I’d love a source on that. I’m always suspicious when macroeconomists “falsify” or “prove” things.

    “they are skills that are cheap to acquire” speaks someone who probably could afford his education and had the right combination of background and talents going in.

    I had those things. But I meant what I said in the literal sense. You can learn to code for free at codeacademy.com, as well as any of a dozen other sites. If you turn that newfound knowledge into a compelling piece of software you can host it for free at openshift.com, as well as a handful of similar places. You can use a computer in any public library to access the sites I named. You can create an income-creating business for no out-of-pocket money (yeah, I sound like an infomercial).

    I am not advocating that everyone learn to code, it’s just a path I know. But I’m not alone in seeing it as a path to empowerment. That’s why initiatives such as Black Girls Code are a thing.

  337. 337.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Well this wasn’t such a bad thread.

    I saw 300 comments and thought, “well there must of been a fight”. But no. The tone is different than the past three weeks. The disagreements were mild. Even the die-hards watered down their comments.

    I was a hard core Dean supporter. I went to all the meet-ups. Wrote all those letters (remember the letter writing campaign). I contributed to all the bats. Remember the bats – those were the days. Used to tune in every day to the podcasts. So I was naturally angry when Dean didn’t win. It takes a while to get over it. It’s like when your team makes it into the Super Bowl and doesn’t win the Super Bowl. It takes a moment but you move-on (to coin a phrase).

  338. 338.

    Suzanne

    @Corner Stone: I don’t know a single feminist that genuinely gives even half a fuck about holding the door. I like when doors are held for me; I also like to hold doors for others, both male and female. It’s just courtesy.

  339. 339.

    Monala

    @Brachiator: I remember learning that JFK lowered the top marginal tax rates(from 90% to about 70%) but also closed several tax loopholes, so the net result was higher tax revenues in the 1960s.

  340. 340.

    DCF

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I would not advocate for the ‘progressive Left’ (i.e., Sanders supporters) to not support HRC – should she become the nominee.

    Having said that, I continue to be amazed (and appalled) by the absence of aspiration and the ‘normative (political) acceptance’ repeatedly evidenced in BJ ‘Comments’. You – collectively – need to get right and get with ‘the-deity-of-your-choice’, because if ‘the Left’ you consistently deride (you know, the future of the Democratic party) takes a powder on this election cycle (for whatever reason(s)), HRC may very well lose the GE….

  345. 345.

    ellennelle

    @sparrow:

    i have to agree, and thx for posting these data.

    i hate to say this, as i would so love to love HRC, but i recall just this very period 8 yrs ago when the wheels started coming off her campaign, as the deck chairs were shuffled and things took on that desperate tang. it was not pretty; i did not, and still do not want any part of that dynamic in the WH.

    larger than my opinion, tho, and more to your point, there is in this country a highly cultivated but unmistakeable hatred for all things hillary that is fully unhinged, yet is nonetheless all too real. this misogyny is parallel to, and indeed relies on the same hatred pattern as racism.

    have any of you ever met or talked to one of these hillary haters? i lived in memphis when bill was guv across the river, so i saw a lot of it up close and personal. it’s truly a thing to behold. seriously wrong and disgusting, but no less real. so it must be reckoned with if she is the nominee. i do not find that comforting in light of all the hillary artillery the GOP has been collecting over the years to pull out for just this very occasion.

    they really got nothin’ on bernie. the cold war has been over for decades now, so that manufactured red scare holds no more cache than boogiemen. racism and misogyny tho, they’re forever.

  349. 349.

    Raven Onthill

    @Technocrat: “But Flappy Bird – one of the most simplistic games ever – was written in 2013 by a single developer. It earned $50,000/day at it’s peak. Minecraft was written by one guy, and sold for 2 billion dollars. PewDiePie is a YouTube celebrity who earns upwards of 7.5 million dollars a year by making videos.”

    Most game designers and YouTubers are not that successful, though; most don’t even make a living at it. Some people do. But paying the rent and the insurance, that has to be done whether or not your media work pays off.

    “You can learn to code for free at codeacademy.com, as well as any of a dozen other sites.”

    You still have to eat, keep a roof over your head, and pay for your internet connection while doing that. Well-funded students in traditional educational environments still do better than online students. Less obviously, most online communities – I’m sure you know – are hideously sexist. Not a few are racist and other sorts of -ist as well.

    Yes, there are opportunities in new media. Sometimes they pay off. But enough to keep most people in comfortable circumstances? It’s difficult to see how.

    Delong and Krugman have both addressed the structural unemployment argument; I think Thoma (Economists View) has, too. Here’s a few links, but I haven’t gathered them into any coherent package. Really, just read Krugman — he is one of the great teachers of the field.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/the-structural-obsession/
    http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/08/identifying-cyclical-vs-structural-unemployment-a-guide-for-slate-writers.html
    http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/05/yes-our-cyclical-unemployment-is-turning-into-structural-unemployment-rapidly-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket-department.html

  350. 350.

    Bobby Thomson

    @John Cole: Yeah! It’s not like the Sanders campaign ever called Clinton a neoliberal, corrupt war criminal at the beck and call of White Street fat cats and her supporters bought, stupid, and conservative.

    I get it, John, you’re pissed off that you’ll have to support a Clinton. The conditioning runs deep. You’ll get past it, though.

  351. 351.

    Technocrat

    @Daulnay:

    Um, no. It’s harder than ever to get out of the working/middle class

    I am probably at the upper end of middle class, and it took me 30+ years. I didn’t break 6 figures for 15 of that 30. I work with guys less than half my age who make more than I do. So while I agree that statistically speaking we have lost a lot of social mobility, I don’t know if I agree that the potential for individual social mobility is gone. I think that potential has just moved into a radically different set of skillsets than were effective in previous years. Who do you imagine is driving up rents in San Francisco?

    It’s not Boomers.

    If you’re talking tech/software engineer/programmer, that’s a pretty specialized set of skills that require talents many people lack. Not everyone can be a good programmer/electrical engineer/etc. Those skills are not especially ‘cheap’ to acquire, either.

    Short of pure manual labor, any set of skills requires talents some people lack. This has been true since the first plumber charged the first distraught homeowner a small fortune. But I think that the shift away from manufacturing has exacerbated the skill gap. And yes, while a 4-year engineering degree is ruinously expensive, some tech skills are indeed dirt cheap to acquire. I’m not just talking about programmers (although they’re a prime example), but I also include YouTube celebrities, and people who run blogs like the one we’re on.

    I would totally agree that unskilled labor is in a historically bad situation. But you can’t make a comprehensive argument about inequality while completely ignoring skilled labor.

  352. 352.

    Dr. Morpheus

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    Jim, you’re an idiot and wouldn’t know a good point if it bit you in the ass. Hil-pricks have been pushing the lie that Bernie supporters chanted “English only” after the Nevada primary. Which, surprise!, turned out to be utterly false.
    Are we going to see any apologies, admissions they were wrong? Hell no, just the same juvenile bullshit push back. I guess they have to rationalize their despicable behavior somehow.

    Still it’s sad since Clinton doesn’t deserve shithead supporters like that. I support Bernie but I will vote for Hillary without hesitation if she wins the primary.

  353. 353.

    Raven Onthill

    @ellennelle: And yet “Vote for me — I’m not an insane fascist” is a thing, too and the anti-socialist arguments are old and well-established in the USA. As I’ve said, I am less and less comfortable with Hillary Clinton as I learn more and more about her. Yet she is (as Sanders has said) better than any of the Republicans and actually pretty good on women’s rights.

  354. 354.

    Cacti

    @DCF:

    It’s quite clear throughout this comment thread (and others) that the only ‘feelings’ that matter to you are your own…Cole was right…you are an a**hole….

    You’re special and your feelings matter.

  355. 355.

    The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016

    @DCF:

    You – collectively – need to get right and get with ‘the-deity-of-your-choice’, because if ‘the Left’ you consistently deride (you know, the future of the Democratic party) takes a powder on this election cycle (for whatever reason(s)), HRC may very well lose the GE….

    @AnonPhenom:

    if they think they can win while insulting and blowing off the guy pulling the big crowds, so he’s not working so hard for Hillary this Fall, more power to them.

    @Rob:

    Keep insulting us. Wake up in January to a President Trump and a big stupid “wha’ happened” look on your face.

    “Marco Rubio will repeal the ACA. I’m Barack Obama and I approve this message.”

    Tell us ‘the Left’ will go against that in the general.

  356. 356.

    Raven Onthill

    @Technocrat: Oh, here’s a few more unemployment links, including Thoma’s category page and a set of Krugman class slides. Notice the dates. It’s one of these zombie ideas; even though it’s been debunked it keeps coming back.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/structural-humbug/
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/eco-348-the-great-recession-unemployment-structural-or-cyclical/

    http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/unemployment/

  357. 357.

    Daulnay

    @Technocrat:
    My argument isn’t about unskilled labor, it’s about the math. Somewhere north of 80% of Americans have gotten 0% of the economic growth since ~1980. For every person who’s worked their way into 6 figures over that period, 3 others have seen stagnant income and one has seen a drop in income offsetting that rise to 6-figures* — that’s how averages work. Many, many educated and skilled people got nothing out of the last 35 years, it’s not just the uneducated or the manual skilled laborers. Because you went into software, you were one of the lucky ones.

    Any society where over 4/5ths of the people are shut out of any economic progress is a society ripe for demagogues (hello, Donald) and revolution. It’s a dangerous situation, and the sooner we fix it, the better.

    *or some mix of losses that make up for the gains of the 1.

  358. 358.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Dr. Morpheus: OH MY GOD SOMEBODY ON THE INTERNET SAID SOMETHING!

    Jesus christ, Doc, prescribe yourself a Xanax, or get DCF to mix you a drink

  359. 359.

    Cacti

    @Raven Onthill:

    I wish you guys would stop the hippie-punching. “Berniebros” is just the latest iteration of that. (I know there are real ones. I also know there aren’t very many of them and Sanders reviles them.) The DFHs have been right much more than wrong. And why should the DFHs, or the Sanders supporters fall into line when they’ve every reason to expect to get stiffed, not by Clinton’s supporters but by Clinton herself?

    Just because someone wants to punch you doesn’t make you a hippie.

  360. 360.

    CumbucoTrader

    So the 80k who voted in Nevada get to pick our nominee? Sweet, great system! Go Hillary, and Ann Laurie!

  362. 362.

    Pandemoniac

    @DCF:
    Thanks. I started to read the paper linked by the blog and scooted to the end to see how it ended. I found that reference to the “average citizen” correlated to median income survey. If political outcomes don’t match preferences of that version of the “average citizen,” how could they even approach the preferences of the low-income, working class?
    I don’t know if I have the stomach to read the article in its entirety.

  363. 363.

    Applejinx

    @Technocrat:

    I’ve read your posts, so I don’t doubt your bona fides at all. But Flappy Bird – one of the most simplistic games ever – was written in 2013 by a single developer. It earned $50,000/day at it’s peak. Minecraft was written by one guy, and sold for 2 billion dollars. PewDiePie is a YouTube celebrity who earns upwards of 7.5 million dollars a year by making videos.

    These are new opportunities, unique to the post-Internet world.

    No, they are not. They are accidents, flukes, not grounds for anything resembling a society. You can’t MAKE a Flappy Bird, you can’t be Pewds (and people try, how they try). There are flukes of position or algorithm that set these people up, and in many cases they become Flappy Bird or PewDiePie by literally taking all the attention from everybody else, in a self-reinforcing cycle that becomes both permanent, and unrepeatable.

    You can’t BE Notch. You can’t BE Pewds. You might as well try to have a career of literally being struck by lightning. Nothing, nothing you could possibly do or be would replicate those circumstances, so these are not opportunities at all.

    I see animators in despair at YouTube because it’s set up so that only daily uploads of hours of ‘content’ will get the feedback of YouTube featuring, and revenue. It’s specifically designed now to encourage the churning out of ‘content’ and actively discourages, through advertising metrics, the slower paced production of creative content.

    Publishers and simple trolls knock videos off YouTube daily with content strikes. I personally did a video to demonstrate a noise-generating plugin. It got a content strike, when there was no music of any kind in the video and no use of any kind of external media. It turned out to be a German troll who had filed a claim to own rights, on YouTube, to a ‘song’ consisting purely of white noise. Had I been trying to get ad revenue off YouTube, I would’ve had to dispute this with this troll, and run the risk of my entire channel being banned if three different people had done that and continued to dispute with me: that, for doing literally nothing but making videos of my own software plugins.

    You are horribly mistaken. ‘Flappy Bird’ is not a business model. I know how the indie game industry is doing right now. They were calling it ‘indiepocalypse’, and that was months ago. The market is absolutely flooded with people trying to cash in, to the point where signal to noise ratio is pretty useless, and it’s never been a worse time to attempt to get into that line of work: except, it’s only going to get worse as democratization of tools means you don’t even have to go to school to produce a ‘first person zombie shooter with advanced game engine’ and try to convince people to buy it.

    Flappy Bird is not a business model. Being PewDiePie is not a business model. Being Notch is not a business model. The odds of that sort of thing working are on par with winning the lottery, the entry-level for ALL these industries is negative wage—it’ll cost you quite a bit to get your production values up to par, and I’m not talking the coding of Flappy Bird: I’m talking the marketing strategy to get your Flappy Bird SEEN as ‘the next Flappy Bird’ and covered by media and YouTubers. And there is no middle class, only going out of business or being the one thing among tens of thousands that hits big that year.

    Except in markets like mobile games, the top ranks are already locked in by the kinds of companies already being bought and sold by giant corporations for billions of dollars, such as (Candy Crush) King. There’s little change in these rankings now, and millions of marketing dollars keeping them that way. So in that market, you’re not even going to be the one thing among tens of thousands because it’s hundreds of thousands and the one thing is already spoken for… and paid for. You can’t get in.

    So, sorry: nope. You might as well suggest being a working musician by putting out mp3s on the internet.

  365. 365.

    Bob in Portland

    @Raven Onthill: The things that make right-wingers hate Hillary aren’t the same critiques against her from the Left. Republicans can’t really argue against her relationship with Wall Street because, ultimately, that’s what the Republican Party has. They can’t complain about her voting for the Iraq War (except maybe Trump, but I don’t think he can exploit it).

    I’ve seen quite a few commenters here, Hillary supporters, who like to conflate the two. It’s not particularly enlightening as far as the discussion advancing, and indicates that these people are only here to score imaginary points. “We came, we saw, he died” is not the same as she killed Vince Foster.

  366. 366.

    Technocrat

    @Raven Onthill:

    I read through the first two links you posted (thanks for that), but I am still confused by their arguments. Krugman, for example, argues that structural unemployment is bunk as follows:

    Basically, structural stories come in two variants: geography and skills. The geography story says that workers are in the wrong places; the skill story that they lack the right knowhow.

    At this point both stories have been thoroughly debunked. Unemployment is high almost everywhere.

    And of course he’s right – for the geographical argument. But look at the unemployment numbers for three different industries:

    Construction Industry: 22% in 2009, 7.5% in 2015

    Manufacturing Industry: 11.9% in 2009, 4.0% in 2015

    Information Industry: 8.1% in 2009, 2.9% in 2015

    It’s hard to argue that 22 and 7.5 aren’t significantly different from 8.1 and 2.9. If his point is that unemployment is distributed relatively equally, the data doesn’t seem to show it.

    In the Brad DeLong article, he actually says (emphasis mine):

    I see employment growth in (a) internet, (b) health care, and (c) logging and mining. I see employment declines everywhere else.
    That does not look like a story of “mismatch” unemployment–in which demand shifts in a direction that the existing labor force cannot cope with, and the result is structural unemployment in declining sectors and occupations and boom times and rising wages and prices in those sectors and occupations to which demand has shifted. That does not look like that at all.

    So internet and healthcare are growing while everything else declines. How is that not “demand shifting in a direction that the existing labor force cannot cope with”?

    I’m not arguing that it’s trivial to completely retrain. The barriers to healthcare careers are real and high and expensive. The barriers to tech careers are certain perceived as high, and some paths are expensive to persue. But I think it’s hard to discount the fact that the demand in these fields is growing, while the demand everywhere else declines. By DeLong’s own definition, that seems to be structural.

    And let me take a step back here. I don’t think everyone can, or should be a programmer. I don’t think being a programmer or YouTube celebrity is a silver bullet to prosperity. By the same token, the next 12 months is likely to produce more internet millionaires than shipping magnates or retailing tycoons. We are, I believe in an accelerating paradigm shift, where technology is devaluing non-technical human labor.

    What will happen to truck drivers and taxi drivers when self-driving cars get here? There will be lots of jobs for people who can tell those vehicles how to drive, not so many for those who used to drive them.

  368. 368.

    Applejinx

    @Technocrat:

    What will happen to truck drivers and taxi drivers when self-driving cars get here? There will be lots of jobs for people who can tell those vehicles how to drive, not so many for those who used to drive them.

    One person can do that. Then, you just upload the program to the cars, and off they go.

    Internet millionaires is not a business model… and the real paradigm shift is currently scaring Elon Musk to death. It’s called the Singularity, where code starts writing itself and AI bootstraps itself into existence and then suddenly snowballs and becomes unstoppable.

    Elon’s silly: it could hardly do worse than us ;) but one thing about it, even the HINTS of that happening have an amazing quality of turning existing programmers into buggy-whip makers. Why code a game engine when Unity and Unreal are both free and fighting each other for mindshare? We are indeed in a paradigm shift, but it’s the death of capitalism. Soon, there will be virtually nothing humans can do that can’t be outsourced, automated, robotized or entirely supplanted, and the profit motive plus the increased fluidity of the internet world will make sure that there are no pockets of inefficient work still being done for a living wage.

    But everybody will be able to watch PewDiePie all they want. As he plays Flappy Bird.

  369. 369.

    different-church-lady

    @Monala:

    Is RBG less trustworthy because she considered Scalia a friend?

    It depends: is she going to endorse Bernie?

  370. 370.

    different-church-lady

    @Applejinx:

    It’s called the Singularity, where code starts writing itself and AI bootstraps itself into existence and then suddenly snowballs and becomes unstoppable.

    And before you know it, the code is binge-watching “Game of Thrones” and ordering furniture on-line.

  372. 372.

    justaguywholikescommentsonfacebook

    I fucking hate this site for the same reason I used to like it. Group think. Cole has it right, but he’s still becoming an asshole, you’re all fucked.

  374. 374.

    Morat20

    On turnout to the primaries:

    I don’t give a flying f*ck who wins on the Democratic side. I’m truly uninvested. (And I’ve voted in every primary for the last few decades). I like Sanders for some things, Clinton for others. I’m not planning to vote this year because I literally don’t care. Pick one. Either. I have no strong feelings.

    But I’ll be out in November, like I am every year, to vote. (Pointlessly, as I live in Texas. My city is blue, so I get that — but on the state level…).

    A simple glance at polling would show the truth that, indeed, most people aren’t that obsessed with either. Both have high popularities and enthusiasm rates among the base. Trying to estimate general election turnout by primary turnout is, frankly, a fool’s game. Like trying to do head-to-head electoral matchups in February. You might as well throw darts.

    Low turnout? It’s because the exciting race is on the GOP side. Both Democratic candidates are well liked by the base, popular, and while we like to think the screaming about HRC or Sanders here is representative — it’s not.

    I know lots of Democrats, off-line. Most don’t care. Sanders, Hillary — they’re happy with either.

  375. 375.

    Technocrat

    @Applejinx:

    You can’t BE Notch. You can’t BE Pewds. You might as well try to have a career of literally being struck by lightning. Nothing, nothing you could possibly do or be would replicate those circumstances, so these are not opportunities at all.

    If you can’t be Yo-Yo Ma, why learn the cello?

    My father is a jazz musician. He’s played with Miles Davis. He knew John Coltrane well. My dad never remotely achieved the level of success of either of those two men, but he had a good career, and was able to raise a family. Some industries (callings?) have a wide bell curve, where the people at the top are a vanishingly small fraction of the whole. But that has always been the case. You’ll never be Notch. You’ll never be Michael Jordan. You’ll never be Elvis, or Rock Hudson, or Beyonce, or Rush Limbaugh for that matter.

    But look, you’ll never be Einstein or Neil Degrasse Tyson either, right? The ability to hit the highest rungs of the tech profession isn’t significantly worse than chances of being a superstar doing anything. The key difference is one you point out yourself – democratization of tools. Can you name another field where the cost of entry is as low? I can’t think of one.

    Programmers get hired pretty easily. I’m not talking about dudes with 10 years in the field, I’m talking about early 20’s, with a decent Github portfolio, or a few well-designed sites. I work with a lot of these young people, and they’re doing OK. Better than average, for damn sure. Not Stanford grads mind you, but sons and daughters of mill workers. So as I see it, a couple of things are true:

    1) We live in a society where you have to work to eat.
    2) Higher-demand skills pay better, so you can work less, or eat more.
    3) The more lucrative the skill set, the higher the training cost, EXCEPT
    4) for Computer/Internet/Programming skills.
    5) The same skills that increase your hire value give you the CHANCE to win at the “Write a program that goes viral” lottery.

    But I want to address what I think is your wider point:

    They are accidents, flukes, not grounds for anything resembling a society

    What IS grounds for something resembling a society? People have to eat, so someone has to grow food. They need shelter, so someone has to build houses. How do you motivate the farmers and the builders unless you pay them more than they’d get NOT farming or building? Slavery is hopefully not an option. So what do you do?

    For the foreseeable future, we’re stuck with some level of sill-based pay inequity. Which means more pay implies retraining – a cost in and of itself. Cheap training is a genuinely new thing, and one I think people should take advantage of. Even if they won’t be Zuckerberg.

  376. 376.

    Brachiator

    @Daulnay:

    I don’t want to prevent fortunes being made, though I do want to prevent massive hereditary wealth — it’s bad for a republic (just echoing Jefferson and Adams here). What those high marginal rates do is discourage and hinder the amassing of wealth.

    Again, this is simply not true. I understand more what you want, and you might accomplish some of this with heavy estate taxes and severe claw backs on the types of trusts that could be established. High marginal tax rates, not really relevant, and might at some level have a huge negative impact on the economy. We don’t have to limit this to the US. The UK and Sweden, for example, created tax exiles who simply fled the country and took their productivity with them, during the 60s and 70s.

    Also, Jefferson was useless as a political economist, but also did little to fight the hereditary aristocracy of Virginia and the rest of the South.

    It shifts the trade-offs that executives make, and makes high executive pay kind of pointless. It in effect encourages wealth-sharing, so that massive redistribution programs aren’t necessary.

    Executive compensation is less a problem than the wealth that accrues to the owners of big corporations.

    ETA: I had to go out for a while. The California weather was too glorious to stay home. Don’t know if this thread is still alive.

  377. 377.

    ellennelle

    @Raven Onthill:

    um, i disagree; the anti-socialist arguments have completely lost steam; the cold war is long over, that boogeyman has flown the coop.

    so what are you saying? sure, HRC is better than republicans, but not by enough to make the big difference we need. and i am not convinced her husband’s policies from the 90s – for which she lobbied congress heavily – are ultimately female friendly. at least, if you don’t have money.

    which includes most of us now. thx to that, and those other policies too.

    think the DLC/3rdWay can fix this? do they even want to?

    sure they do. not.

  378. 378.

    Technocrat

    @Applejinx:

    Internet millionaires is not a business model… and the real paradigm shift is currently scaring Elon Musk to death. It’s called the Singularity, where code starts writing itself and AI bootstraps itself into existence and then suddenly snowballs and becomes unstoppable

    It scares me too, but I think the transformative…uhhh…pre-Singularity…isn’t when you have superhuman AI, but when you have human-level AI. When all the new jobs technology creates can be filled by the technology you created. That’s when I expect our capitalist model to sort of explode.

    Anyway, I’m off for the night. Corporate masters demand prompt Monday appearances.

  380. 380.

    Plantsmantx

    @NR: Yeah, I’ve seen the video of Susan Sarandon in Dolores Huerta’s face, babbling about GMOs How much more of a cliche could she possibly be?

  384. 384.

    AnonPhenom

    @The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016:
    It’s not a question of ‘going against’, it’s the matter of motivating people (or as you say, ‘The Left”) to show up when you need them.
    It would appear from the Hippie punching, premature ball spiking, general condescension and insults, that the Clinton camp is shooting itself in the foot.
    And like Gore supporters in 2000, Clinton 2016 supporters will look for someone else to blame. I’m saying look in your mirrors..

  385. 385.

    DCF

    @different-church-lady:

    Apologies? From the HRC hive? The only sound we’ll hear is Hillary’s spooky laughter after yet another reporter (or voter) asks if she will release the transcripts of her Wall Street speeches….

  386. 386.

    DCF

    @AxelFoley:

    Berniebros and Berniacs, Hilbots and HillShills…every political group has ‘fringe’ members who write/say/do foolish, ill-considered things….

    The Democratic political establishment (Thanks a pantload, Harry Reid) needs to halt its myopic focus on ‘HRC uber alles’ and discover how to better motivate the (true) progressive wing of the party – in part by devoting itself to an effective environmental/energy policy, an issue that (at this point) doesn’t respond well to incrementalism….

  387. 387.

    Raven Onthill

    @ellennelle: anti-socialism in the USA goes back to the 19th century; I think it’s too early to call it dead.

    In any event, I think the Clinton strategy is going to be to paint Sanders as racist and sexist. I hope I’m wrong. That probably turn the left against the Democratic Party for a generation, but Huerta’s doubling down on her false tweet (yes, it’s still up) suggests to me that it is the strategy. I continue to hope the the Republicans self-destruct and allow a new party to move in from the left but, well, if choosing an open fascist for their Presidential candidate doesn’t do it, I don’t know what will. We await the leader who can unify the youthful and women’s factions of the electorate, and who knows if that leader will ever arrive.

    @DCF: the Dem leadership doesn’t want progressives. Isn’t it obvious, after near-on a decade of hippie-punching?

  389. 389.

    Socraticsilence

    @Cacti:

    Would you argue it’s on the level of saying young women are apathetic and only vote to get laid which seems to be the brilliant tactic for youth outreach that at the very least surrogates for the Clinton campaign have adopted.

  390. 390.

    Socraticsilence

    @aimai:

    See, this an argument I could have bought if I didn’t live through 08 and work pretty deeply in politics in 2016- the Clinton people honestly panicked out NH, and likely would have lost NV in system with a primary or hell a caucus that started later in the day, and god knows they lost their shit in 2008 and went into full Trump style race bait / pander mode.

  394. 394.

    Socraticsilence

    @Joel:

    Right so they’re like “Bernie Bros “ then. @Cacti:

    I don’t know I mean Bernie should probably stay in, after RFK was ahead in June in 1968 and didn’t end up as the nominee.

  395. 395.

    DCF

    @Raven Onthill:

    Hopefully – although perhaps not realistically – the Democratic party establishment will incorporate a significant number of Bernie Sanders’ positions into the platform…HRC is already ‘copping’ many elements of his program(s), although I will not be the least bit surprised should she tack back to the center in the GE (and remain there, for the most part)….

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