Girl. It's over between you and the baby chair. You need to face reality. pic.twitter.com/RiAKZ6LN2i
— Nicole Cliffe (@Nicole_Cliffe) February 23, 2016
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Who knew that the Republican Party was so undervalued it could be taken by "Eminent Domain?"
— AlGiordano (@AlGiordano) February 24, 2016
*************
Anybody got any good links on last night’s Democratic town hall?
Apart from that, what’s on the agenda for the day?
BGinCHI
If Trump has a new career after the election as a xenophobic rapper and DJ, he should totally go with MC Eminent Domain.
Wait. MC Imminent Domain.
Yeah, that’s better. Unless Cole is already using that at his night job.
amk
yup, dems to need some grow up and grow some bones and go actually vote instead of handwaving/pearl clutching.
benw
@BGinCHI: Breaking news: MC Eminent sued by rapper Eminem for infringement due to similarity of names. Trump and Marshall Mathers decide to settle out of court with an epic rap battle.
NotMax
Because they’ve got naught better to do.
Mustang Bobby
Castro is dead.
Oh, wait, it’s Ramon Castro, the older brother of Fidel and Raul. He never really got into the revolution shtick but spent his life as a farmer.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
Fuck me, this is getting spooky. Forty years of the Wingnut Wurlitzer brought us here. Working class whites getting financially screwed and underserved by education while “their” politicians concentrated on slutty sluts and the lazy finally lash out in the direction where their anger has been directed.
Not to go all Godwin, but is what I’m feeling akin to what a cosmopolitan Berlin resident of 1933 felt? I went to look at a Cillizza piece on a Trump VP choice and the Trump supporter comments were horrific – some calling for military action throughout Central America. These did not appear to be trolls, either.
Mustang Bobby
Good thing I can’t see Morning Joe at the office; I suspect they’ll be jizzing all over Trump. Eww.
Anne Laurie
@Mustang Bobby: If I recall correctly, newly deceased Ramon was the eldest brother. Since I grew up immersed in Imperial British fiction, it seemed somehow familiar that the eldest son would inherit the family landholdings, while the younger sons would go out into the wider world and make their own fortunes — usually at the expense of those who hadn’t started with their advantages, and frequently interspersed with detainment by the local authorities.
Amir Khalid
@NotMax:
China has one of the world’s oldest bureaucratic cultures. If any country could define “illegally odd-shaped” and put it in a building code, it would be them.
That look on the puppeh’s face is priceless.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mustang Bobby: You are correct, sir.
raven
@Mustang Bobby: Cokie Roberts and Fournier are not happy about Trump.
raven
Joe says the only candidate who is not overpromising is Hillary.
BGinCHI
@raven: Well, she is the owner/manager of the District of Columbia.
BGinCHI
@raven: Now that’s a Texas Cage Match made in heaven.
OzarkHillbilly
Last Friday I saw my first crocus pop up in my front yard. The geese have been winging their way north for a little longer than that. And on Saturday I took a little 5 mile float trip on the Meramec River with some friends. A pain in the ass getting in and out of the canoe with this damn boot on my hoof but a long overdue release of built up cabin fever from not being able to get out and do anything because of this damn boot on my hoof. And it was beautiful. Absolutely stunning weather, deep blue skies with an exuberant sun and temps in the mid 70s, crystal clear water below us and mating ospreys and bald eagles dancing in the sky above us…
This morning I find myself a victim of another drive by blast of winter: 2-3 inches on the ground with 2-3 more predicted, the temps aren’t too bad but the wind is howling and I’ve already had to clear the snow off the satellite dish. Worse yet, the wife took Friday and Monday off, then decided to take Tuesday off too. Guess who isn’t driving our crooked and steep roads in snow and ice this morn? So that will make for 6 days in a row I will have had her around 24 hrs a day. I love my wife but 6 days in a row????
This is encroaching on my rights as an OzarkHillbilly to
“We will agree with respondent in his definition of Stone County[, Missouri] freedoms that a husband has a right to go fishing. And we will go further and say that this right extends to fishing without the constant and ever-present impediment of female presence and participation, if such be against the will of the husband. It is a wise wife who accords her husband that freedom — in moderation — and a foolish wife who interferes.”
Moore v Moore
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: For some reason my wife has been on a “do things together” kick in regard to house projects!
eta She even offered to help unload and stack the 500 bricks I got for the new walkway!
OzarkHillbilly
Better run away Anne, soon you’ll have swarms of timber rattlers nesting underneath your fridge.
BillinGlendaleCA
I put up a new “From the Archives” album: Alaska – From the Archives.
PurpleGirl
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: I don’t know about that. However, Berlin’s residents were not major supporters of Hitler. His base was in Munich and other cities.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: That is something I wish we did more of.
Patricia Kayden
@amk: I assume Democratic voters like myself are accustomed to pearl clutch and vote at the same time. If Trump is the Republican Presidential candidate, I will breathe easier since I cannot imagine him winning in November. But, of course, you’re right that griping alone is useless. If the prospect of a Trump presidency doesn’t get Democratic voters to come out in droves, nothing else will.
Betty Cracker
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Now I’m sorta hoping Trump runs the table and wins the GOP nomination. While it’s horrifying to think of that noxious Circus Peanut with a greater than zero chance of becoming president, that’s true of every Republican left standing, and I think Hillz would have an easier time beating Trump than a more attractively packaged extremist like Rubio.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: I assume Cruz would be easier to beat than Trump, but otherwise agree.
Baud
@Patricia Kayden: I need to buy some pearls.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I’d go with Tahitian black pearls.
ETA: It’d make a nice excuse to go to Tahiti to get them.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I think you’re right about Cruz being easier to beat — he seems to be utterly repellant to every living thing, even his own child. But my risk/reward calculator shifts with Cruz at the top of the ticket. As horrifically embarrassing and disastrous as a Trump presidency would be, I think he’s basically a dilettante, whereas Cruz is a True Believer and therefore more dangerous. I heartily want to keep his chances of becoming president at zero.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: I agree with that.
Elizabelle
I am feeling hopeful, actually, in light of Trump’s latest win. His voters are FoxNewsNation, and those whose prospects have dwindled. He’s kind of showing a way for Hillary to reconnect with working folks of any color whose jobs have been outsourced, and the young, who face reduced prospects unless they’re tech geniuses.
In one way, Trump is as useful as Bernie in getting Hillary to address the very real things that have gone wrong, over 20-30 years, and how we can improve Americans’ prospects.
Hillary actually does care, and can connect. She did it in 2008, and she was very good in what little I saw of last night’s CNN Dem Town Hall. She’s comfortable with herself (unlike Rubio) and smart and and has given this stuff some thought, years of thought (unlike Trump).
I’m glad the GOP base is not going for the usual establishment drip. Were I a cartoonist, Rubio would be in a NASCAR outfit with all the sugar daddies’ names on it, and Cuban heel boots. He does not represent the average American citizen, and seems not to care much about Florida constituents either.
Nothing “mainstream” about Rubio, as much as MSM tries to bleat it. Looking at you, NYTimes.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@PurpleGirl:
And he never had the support of the majority of his countrymen.
For a long time I have seen parallels between today and pre-Civil War American politics but I can’t shake that feeling that the GOP/Fox/Wurlitzer have set us up for a populist fascist. American history is littered with failed ones so it is not like they have not tried, they just never had ground so well fertilized to grow in.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA: I would love to go to Tahiti. It’ll probably be my first foreign trip as president.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Betty Cracker:
Weirdly, he’s so full of shit and lazy that some things will remain relatively intact due to his complete absence of any master plan. Social Security and Medicare would remain in place, and he’s unlikely to upend Obamacare.
When the GOP congress sends him bills on those items, he’ll veto them, and they’ll stand around looking at one another foolishly.
No, where Trump frightens me is in bellicosity and, at minimum, open animus toward Hispanic folks. He’s reckless and seeks conflict as opposed to an Obama or Clinton approach to engagement, consensus, coalition building and soft power. There’s not a single flashpoint that he won’t make worse.
bystander
@Mustang Bobby: Then you only have yourself to blame for missing Moanin’ Joe. Believe it or not, Mika has an EXCLUSIVE interview with none other than Melania, whose name begs to be misspelled. So, people who love girl-on-girl tongue wrestling will be sure to tune in.
Mustang Bobby
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): We got pretty close with Huey Long in 1938, and if he hadn’t been assassinated he would have given Roosevelt a real scare in 1940. As it is, in 1968 George Wallace sounded a lot like Trump, just with that Alabama drawl/snarl.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I’ve been, it’s quite nice.
Mai.naem.mobile
I’m wondering if the GOP in the House continue to push on Benghazi if Trump gets the nomination since they think Trump will be a drag on the lower ballot races. Make it easier on Hils instead of a race where Dems get nominated. I’m hoping the Hispanics come out in unprecedented numbers because of Trump and the Dems not only regain the Senate with 56+ seats but gain seats in the House.
debbie
@PurpleGirl:
Except that the Berliners thought it was just a passing phenomenon and had nothing to do with them. I do see parallels in then and now.
I still can’t believe Trump got more Hispanic votes than anyone else last night.
Baud
Is there any Super Tuesday state Trump is expected to lose?
OzarkHillbilly
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
I would not be so sure of that. A head full of naught but ego is all too vulnerable to the ministrations of a Grima Wormtongue, and the GOP has a plethora of them.
bystander
Ted Cruz is the guy Firesign Theater had in mind when they created the guy who runs Billville, Mayor Penisnose.
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
If he’s the nominee, Trump will be forced to be specific about all these huuuge, wonderful policies and programs he’s planning. That alone should sink him.
Elizabelle
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): Thinking on the pre-Civil War era.
John C. Calhoun had some truly memorable hair too. He got his historical reckoning, and it was not kind.
PurpleGirl
@debbie: That is true. Maybe the lesson to take away is that we should believe what a politician says he will/wants to do.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: He’s polling behind Cruz in TX.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Maybe Texas.
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: The difference is Germany’s money men thought they could control Hitler. The GOP’s donor class is under no such illusion with Trump.
And if the GOP somehow does wind up with an Il Duce for November, think of the debates as Drunk Uncle Racist versus Patient Grandma.
Betty Cracker
@debbie: It should, and I certainly hope so, but honest to dog, I’ve given up trying to divine voter behavior this year based on what should happen or historical precedents. It’s just a really nutty year.
Kay
@Baud:
Trump is clearly ahead in 9 of 13. Cruz is ahead in 2- Texas and Arkansas. Ben Carson is ahead in Colorado but that looks like one poll.
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Ah, thanks. Of course, that won’t help Rubio.
I wonder who’ll win Virginia. If there is one state where establishment Republicans should be strong, it’s that one.
Matt McIrvin
@The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016:
Wrong. I’ve seen some of them saying that as explanation of why they’d prefer him to Cruz. They know he’s not their guy, but they’re telling themselves he’ll take office and he won’t know what to do, and that’s when they’ll step in with sagely advice.
OzarkHillbilly
@debbie: Forced by whom? Our beloved non-partisan news media?
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
It is crazy. The fact is, any combination of the candidates who wind up as the nominees would be unprecedented. Not to mention the effect caused by running to succeeding the first black president, which it is clear too many Americans weren’t ready to deal with.
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
Whoever ends up facing him in the debates.
Matt McIrvin
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
Whenever Trump has actually tried to supply specifics on anything (e. g. his tax plan), he usually just sounds like a fairly extreme conventional Republican. You don’t have to have any kind of plan to sign bills or to destroy things, just to build. I don’t see any reason he’d veto anything that comes out of Congress.
Mai.naem.mobile
I’m just trying to imagine a Trump presidency. He’ll be telling Mexican President Pineto to speak English. Telling Merkel to stop dressing so frumpy and get some plastic surgery in NY like his wife. Calling the NK guy short with ugly hair with a loser country. Tell the Saudi King to stop wearing a headscarf. Oh, and to be a fly in the wall at the first transition meeting between Trump and Obama.
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@Matt McIrvin: He doesn’t need their money, though. They can stroke his ego all they want, but they can’t control him. And they need that control. You think the Koch brothers are going to line up with everyone else to gladhand this chucklefark?
Follow the endorsements: Rubio’s picking up more each day and Trump still has zero.
OzarkHillbilly
@debbie: And you think voters will care? I mean if they even bother to watch the debates? I am one who thinks this is a great weakness for Trump, but I in no way think it is a slam dunk definite problem for him. Republican voters obviously don’t care. How many “independents” will?
JPL
@Mai.naem.mobile: I don’t want to imagine a Trump/Obama meeting. Just not going there.
Iowa Old Lady
Jeb actually hit the nail on the head when he said Trump was a chaos candidate and would be a chaos president.
@debbie: I’d like to think Trump would have to come up with some specifics if he’s the nominee, but who knows? He seems to get away with anything.
Kay
We had a Hillary v Bernie fight at the Dem county meeting last night. It was Darlene (Hillary) who is a mayor versus a high school band director/music teacher (Bernie). “Free college” is what they were fighting about.
JMG
People watch the debates and they move public opinion, not a lot, but enough to make a difference. And a Hillary-Donald debate will get great ratings.
Elizabelle
@Iowa Old Lady:
Chaos candidate. That actually defines all of the GOP field leaders.
Comforting: Jon Stewart, in the wake of 9/11: “Chaos cannot sustain itself … it’s too easy, and too unsatisfying.”
OzarkHillbilly
@The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016:
And they will get it. It will be spring in January with all the Turd Blossoms blooming around him as he takes the oath. He wants the exact same thing they do: More.
Applejinx
@debbie: Neither can I. Since it can’t possibly be them wanting to self-deport to Mexico, the only explanation I can think of is ‘they thought he would be more economically populist and bring them jobs like he promises’.
Iowa Old Lady
OT, but I still try to read the morning pundit roundup on Kos and the site is increasingly unusable for me. It locks up and scrolls only in fits and starts. Is that them or me?
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
He’s so good at defining his opponents. He just settles on some (real) vulnerability and hits it every day. Bush was “weak” and Cruz is “a liar”. He said yesterday he hasn’t gone after Rubio because Rubio hasn’t gone after him but “watch what happens” when Rubio does. He’ll have one word.
I think he’s dangerous because unlike ordinary bullying Republicans he doesn’t just punch down – Muslims, Latinos- he also punches up. To his fans I think that saves him from being categorized as pure bully. He hits powerful people too.
Cermet
tRump is more electable than any other thug due to his appeal factor. He looks to be unstoppable for the thugs. Hillary had better be on her game and the email crap had better not explode – otherwise, we may have a hair monster as president.
debbie
@Applejinx:
He also did really well with evangelicals. That has to be a kick in the balls to Cruz.
Kay
@debbie:
At least Cruz is ahead in his own state. Rubio and Kasich can’t even say that.
OzarkHillbilly
@Applejinx: It’s easy enuf to explain: IGMFY.
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
@Iowa Old Lady:
I do think it will make a difference to enough people if he tries to weasel out of specifics. That has dogged Republicans in the past (ie, Romney’s “can’t tell you until I get into office”), and it will again. Also (and I’m sure I’m being too idealistic), I don’t think moderates will uniformly go for Trump. I cannot imagine they hate Hillary so much they’ll go for eight years of absolute bedlam.
Princess
What, are you people crazy? Trump isn’t going to veto GOP bills. Why would he do that? If he has a GOP senate and House, he’s going to sign everything put in front of him so they’ll leave him alone to build his wall and his YUUGE classy addition tot he White House.
Applejinx
@OzarkHillbilly: For the Hispanic vote? In Nevada?
Van Buren
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Yesterday I was told to ignore the hate speech and focus on the fact that his economic plans are to the left of Hillary. And I thought if ever there was a time for Godwin, it’s now.
Ohio Mom
@Kay: I went to lunch the other day with someone who tried to pick the Hillary-Bernie fight. I nodded vaguely, got real interested in what was on my plate and then asked my lunch mate a very specific question about how her life is going, one that I was pretty sure she had a self-flattering answer for.
Then I inwardly sighed. I have enough going on in my life right now without that.
Kathleen
@Betty Cracker: I totally agree. Any Rethug would be a disaster but Cruz by far is most dangerous. Anointed by God and all.
p.a.
@PurpleGirl: However the authoritarianism of the German population mattered. Anger over lost war, lost national status, hyperinflation, Versailles. Pro-Nazi feedback loop; even those Hitler made feel squeamish supported him as success followed success.
US takeaway for me is the delerium of Trumpists/conservatives who really see the US as weak and oppressed. One can understand (but not approve) politicians who try to make that argument for political gain. But to actually have the arguments resonate here, now, is horrific. Germans had actual issues; their crime was following a demonic pied piper.
“There once was a people who believed in Santa Claus. But Santa Claus turned out to be The Gas Man.” The Tin Drum
Elizabelle
Trump seems more authentic than the rest of the GOP field, and he’s entertaining and brief in his remarks. Would be a disaster as president, but so would they all.
@Applejinx: If you were working in a marginal economy, would you welcome an influx of competition for your job? I don’t think everyone looks at unstemmed and often illegal immigration in the manner you expect.
Kay
@debbie:
I think we have to wait a bit. Republicans always say the Republican who is ahead in blue GOP primary states has “crossover” appeal in a general. It was McCain’s argument and then Romney. Trump is more of a threat because so far he gets GOP base voters in red states and blue states, but he still only crosses over w/in the GOP.
Applejinx
@Princess: Here’s hoping it’s a hypothetical. Holy fuckballs, the idea of President Trump!
That said, why wouldn’t Trump veto GOP bills? He’s just as pissed off with them as he is with the Dems, possibly more if he’s really a stealth Dem. Really he’s a Trump (Trump) and gives no fucks about either side, only himself. People like that when they HATE what the government’s doing, across the board.
Maybe people want to see him elected so he can turn to the GOP and say ‘You’re fired!’ and appoint a whole new franken-congress to his tastes. Racist, protectionist and HYOOOGE, twice the size of the Dems.
He is, shall we say, not representing the GOP establishment. If people liked the GOP establishment, Bush would’ve had it sewn up. Their establishment is way more in shambles than our establishment, but people hate both.
Goblue72
@Kay: So it was a fight between management saying we can’t afford it and labor saying yes indeed you can. The two campaigns in a nutshell.
If Clinton thinks she can win the general election with a technocratic incrementalist approach, she’s toast. Get used to saying President Trump. Turnout at Dem primaries has been pathetic vs GOP turnout. If folks keep telling themselves that it’s just because Dem voters think Clinton has this in the bag, they are going to wake up in November with a rude awakening. The Obama coaltion worked. For Obama. Obama ain’t running and this ain’t 2000 Bush v Gore.
Elizabelle
@Ohio Mom: My guess is good strategy to deal with that is a strong endorsement of voting for the Democratic nominee, since the Republicans are a sure horror show, and changing the subject, you did.
You were more graceful than I would have been. I don’t think we should allow our purity pony friends to self-radicalize (Hillary is a Republican! There’s no difference. Alternatively, Bernie is pie in the sky.) They need to live in the real world.
@Kay: I wonder how many nonvoters Trump is bringing to the mix. He is rousing the disengaged. That could change things a lot. Although I still like Democrats’ chances.
Uncle Cosmo
@BGinCHI: No doubt Failgunner Ted has “Imminent Dominion” copyrighted already.
@Mustang Bobby:
Backdate that scare one cycle–Huey died in September 1935, a month after he announced a run for President in 1936.
Gin & Tonic
@Applejinx: How many Hispanic people participate in Republican caucuses in Nevada? Is that number even statistically significant?
Applejinx
@Elizabelle: I’m picturing a legal, American Hispanic Republican vote, working in a marginal economy, and opposing immigration because they don’t want more competition.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Yeah, that: I missed it the first time. IGM can also include a shit job in a marginal economy, and FY can mean ‘don’t you come over the border and compete for my jerb’.
The question becomes, how many people would seriously believe that Trump is more likely to oppose globalization and jobs going overseas and to an influx of immigrants? (never mind that immigration from Mexico’s down: WSJ says it’s reversed now)
Depends on what Clinton says. It’s not even about who’s telling the truth, we’re talking Trump and Clinton: it’s about who is even willing to say they’d oppose job-killing trade deals and floods of job-taking immigrants.
OzarkHillbilly
@debbie: Well, I hope that you are not just right, but right enough, not just short of enough.
Matt McIrvin
@p.a.: Americans have actual issues! It’s not all hallucination. The top-line numbers in the economy look all right but a lot of people are still suffering. Rural areas are socioeconomic disaster zones. Congress has made sure that liberal programs to help people don’t get too far along. And the US has been losing wars, in the sense of not accomplishing any sensible political goals. They just weren’t at home, for the most part.
Compared to Depression-era Germany it’s nothing. But on top of that, Trump has been able to build on the inevitable sense of loss of racial status as white supremacy slowly erodes, and that’s where the really ugly stuff comes in.
Kay
@Ohio Mom:
I (generally) think the battles are healthy. The meeting was well-attended. I’m happy if they come out. They have a genuine disagreement on free college and what I would call the direction of the Democratic Party. If they didn’t feel like they were a part of it they wouldn’t be fighting over who defines it. It’s a little different with just two people outside a political event – your situation- these monthly meetings are partly about airing disputes. Darlene is both a mayor and has a (locally) elected position in the state Party, so she wouldn’t object to representing the “establishment”. That’s what she is.
Goblue72
@Applejinx: There are Latinos out there who think exactly that. Usually working class / lower middle class. Feel they came here legally and played by the rules – and that their fellow immigrants need to do the same. The phrase “illegals” comes to them as easily as to non-Hispanic whites. They aren’t the majority of Latinos, but they do exist.
OzarkHillbilly
@Applejinx: Why not? You think Hispanics are immune to that emotion?
Goblue72
@Matt McIrvin: Pretty much – Why elites don’t understand Trump.
BlueDWarrior
@Goblue72: I’ve said it in other forums, and I will say it here. People want a meteor to strike Washington, and that meteor is now named Trump.
It’s almost irrelevant if Trump’s election would burn the whole socioeconomic infrastructure of America to the ground, people feel it cant get any worse, so why not have a few years of cathartic anarchy?
It’s a terrible line of thinking, but it is one that is salient because it hooks directly into monkey, if not lizard brain thinking; something that logic really can’t uproot unless the possessor of that feeling eventually has their fever break, to use a turn of phrase Obama is fond of.
Chyron HR
Remember, it’s terribly terribly unfair to suggest that the Sanders supporters currently masturbating to fantasies of “populist President Trump” crushing that bitch Hillary are anything less than loyal Democrats.
Uncle Cosmo
I wonder how much of T. rump‘s Hispanic vote last night was their way of saying Me cago en los cubanos (i.e., Crooze & Robotio both)–who as a group are (IIUC) widely detested by Latinos of different ancestry because of how they’ve parlayed “refugees from Comm’nizm” status into special treatment.
Applejinx
I just had a happy thought.
Since hearing about the Nevada Hispanic vote going for Trump, I’ve been pretty concerned about Trump running to the left of Hillary Clinton w.r.t globalization and protectionism. If Hillary continues to support neoliberal trade deals (which do, in fact, jack up income inequality quite horribly) then that’s a real weak point and it risks Trump winning the general riding a wave of antiestablishment economic populism. (this assumes Hillary beats Bernie, and I’m prepared to consider that outcome: especially here at BJ I’m not interested in arguing that Bernie will still win, if he does great in SC or Super Tuesday I’ll resume saying that)
A big worry, but check this out:
If Clinton either refuses to let him run to her left, or if she wins anyway while getting pulled slightly left by his shenanigans, consider what happened to the ol’ Overton Window.
You’d have the Republican nominee railing against neoliberal trade deals, half the electorate associating them with Obama (and blithely ignoring the Republican part in all that), and the Dem President inheriting a leadership position on trade deals with an apparent mandate from both Left and Right to quit putting faith in a globalization movement that’s only created a billionaire class while obliterating the rest of the country. Plus she’s already taken positions toward harnessing some of the energy of the sector that created (such as the transaction tax thing) and has allies in the Minneapolis Fed, and her Goldman Sachs cabinet might well be packed with reformers seeking to regulate Wall Street for its own good (these aren’t dumb people, but they want to see Wall Street win and not crash).
We could be looking at an inevitable dismantling of the neoliberal agenda. The whole globalization thing might be hitting a serious roadblock with both Left and Right mobilized against it. And Hillary will be campaigning for re-election from day one. Day ONE.
Again, hypothetical, just a happy thought, but especially if you don’t assume Clinton=Evil this could be how things pan out. She’d have to beat Trump, who will be trying to run to her left on economic populism, and blame her personally for many globalization ills.
Jibeaux
I heard Rubio on the news this morning, and his pitch right now is that Romney got more votes in the Nevada caucus than Trump. Of course I don’t think there were a bakers dozen candidates then. S ooooo clearly you want to vote for the guy who lost by 22 points to the guy who lost to the guy who lost the election in 2012.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone:)
Kay
@BlueDWarrior:
I think Republicans did it to themselves, not with the demonization of “the other” (which they all do and their base loves) but with actively misleading their base. Republican voters came out and gave them Congress based on all kinds of promises- repeal Obamacare, indict and impeach/remove Obama, Eric Holder, someone, anyone- just outlandish things, but so many base Republicans believed it. They didn’t lay a glove on Obama- they had Congress and they did “investigations” and they got nothing. They now believe Hillary Clinton is not a threat because she will be indicted/arrested any day.
magurakurin
@Iowa Old Lady: them. DK5 is a shitty upgrade. There is a problem with the comments and quoted text. If someone uses the quote feature when the thread is off to the right margin it prints out as a single long column of a single letter. Completely unreadable. Yet, people continue to use the quote feature even after they see the post rendered like that. So, a bad upgrade combined with idiots.
Still some really good people left over there, though. You just have to find where they are gathering. The other rooms are like that weird scene in the Shining with the guy in the pig suit. Incomprehensible madness.
Kay
@Jibeaux:
It’s such a bad idea how he keeps lowering the bar and wriggling under it. It’s already partly defining him- the person who gives a victory speech after coming in 2nd, the “everyone gets a trophy” guy. They must know it makes him look weak, how he won’t go after the front runner directly but has this passive “not lose” strategy. It’s just such a bad fit with their base. It seems solely directed to political media but they’re not going to go along with it forever.
Germy
@Jibeaux: I also heard Rubio attacking Trump, saying “Just yesterday he was claiming that President Bush was responsible for 9-11!”
So let the wild rumpus start.
Curious to hear what Trump will have to say about Rubio. He has the bully’s gift for finding the soft spot.
Weaselone
@Kay:
The demonization and broken promises go hand in hand. If you convince your voters that the other side is all demons, murderers, thieves and other criminals then the natural expectation is that once you gain power, you will exorcise the demons, hang the murderers, cut the hands of the thieves and imprison the other criminals. If the other side is not in fact as you describe, and you have not completely usurped due process, then you’re stuck doing nothing but investigating and leaking misleading information.
Matt McIrvin
@Van Buren:
Which only seems true because he has almost no plans. The guy talks like a left-populist about Wall Street and trade, but his tax proposal, if I recall correctly, was the biggest giveaway to the rich of all the Republicans’.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Mustang Bobby: Isn’t that like the passing of Gummo Marx?
Germy
@ThresherK (GPad): Excellent comparison.
Tripod
@p.a.:
It’s all projection. The Clinton era “fuck you boys” (was that Halprin?) got old and are mad about it. Old farts with ball caps and goatees. A whole generation of Converellas, who never gave a shit about anybody else but themselves now whinging the game is fixed. It’s not frightening, it’s fucking pathetic.
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx: Hillary Clinton has already pretty much abandoned neoliberal trade policies — she’s come out against the TPP, for example. What I worry about with regard to a HRC-Trump match-up is immigration. The official Democratic Party position (and HRC’s) is way to the left of the country’s, including Democrats’.
El Caganer
Missed last night’s threads, but was inspired by the Eliot verses. “In the room the women come and go/Ignoring Marco Rubio.”
gvg
If Trump was elected, he would have spite feud’s with members of congress within weeks if not sooner, both parties. Worse than Cruz. His TV show is about firing people. President doesn’t get to fire Congress tho I suspect he doesn’t know that. So any that are thinking they could control him or he wouldn’t veto things is ignoring his personality. What I can’t make myself picture is that personality responsible for foreign policy.
Somebody with a public podium needs to point this out. Many voters won’t care but some will.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: Me too. And the Trump supporters, and disaffected voters, are hearing it loud and clear.
Immigration is a positive good for our country, if it’s regulated. The free for all we have only undercuts others’ wages (while providing more consumers and serfs for Businessland, America).
People over 40 or 50 have a terrible time finding another job, are in economic peril, and they’re supposed to welcome unfettered immigration (ETA: and get called racists and yeehaws if they don’t)? Uh, no.
OzarkHillbilly
After four years, why are more feet washing ashore in British Columbia?
Go on. You know you want to. It’s irresistible.
Applejinx
@Betty Cracker: Good, pleased to hear it. I think she could conceivably be a really strong voice against neoliberal trade policies, but only if she sees a mandate against them.
I don’t believe the country is nearly as right-wing on immigration as you think. It’s that immigration is potentially a threat on economic grounds, ‘stealing jerbs’. In that light, it’s a paper tiger: deal with the economic issues and a lot of the ‘racism’ mysteriously goes away. If people are desperate to accuse the Other of anything in order to keep them from taking your JERB then they’ll go to racism as a weapon, but it’s being driven by fear not hate.
That’s bad: that’s how you get fascist dictators. But the hate comes after the fear, and the fear could be mitigated by co-opting that economic populism argument.
Germy
Here’s a 32-second clip of Trump storming Glenn Beck’s “Cruz event”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCEtRKGsGQc
Kay
@Weaselone:
I actually think Obama gets credit for a lot of it. They got nothing on him because there is nothing to get. That’s pretty amazing for a two-term President. They couldn’t even trump up a scandal and they had all the incentive to do it and all the power they needed.
Gin & Tonic
@Betty Cracker: I see on Twitter that someone is floating the idea of Mike Bloomberg as HRC’s veep candidate. Supposedly (is “rumoredly” a word?) he’s “open” to the idea.
I can hear the screeching of the Berniacs already.
Germy
@Gin & Tonic: I’m not a Berniac and that makes ME want to screech.
He’s “open” to the idea? Fine. I”m open to the idea of being Rihanna’s boyfriend.
Ben Cisco
While my brother was in town, he insisted on watching CNN. Told him I don’t do TV news and why. He didn’t get it. LOVES that Trump is crushing the field, but it turns out that’s only b/c he feels Hillary will mop the floor with him, so there’s that. Point is, my brother has NEVER been overly engaged politically, but is ready to take a 2×4 to ANY GOPer on ANY ticket. He has to put up with Sessions and Shelby, but he will fight.
rikyrah
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW 2/24/16
How Trump can lock up the race: beat opponents in their backyards
Steve Kornacki shows how Donald Trump’s lead in the Republican primary race would be nearly insurmountable if he beats John Kasich in Ohio, Ted Cruz in Texas, and Marco Rubio in Florida, all of which the poll predict he will do. Duration: 4:30
Ben Cisco
@Germy: This made me laugh. Out loud. for the first time in I don’t know when. Thanks for that.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle & @Applejinx: I agree with both of y’all that economic insecurity is the main driver of anti-immigration sentiment, at least WRT immigration from Mexico, South America, etc. There’s racism too — there always is, but it’s a mistake to attribute it all to that.
On Syrian refugees, it’s likely more fear of terrorism plus Islamophobia. I heard Rubio make a point during a town hall the other day that I think will resonate with many folks; he said ISIS has captured Syrian government buildings and passport-making equipment and that it’s therefore impossible to vet refugees so we can’t take any in. He might be completely full of crap, but it will sound plausible and reasonable to a lot of people, and if Trump were smart enough to integrate that talking point into his “no more Muslims” shtick, he wouldn’t sound as crazy to non-bigots.
OzarkHillbilly
@Gin & Tonic: On the face of it that sounds like a planted rumor. Bloomberg is “open” to playing 2nd fiddle? Really? That doesn’t even pass the smell test.
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: Someone on the Daily Beast has a column up right now saying Hillary should ask Kasich to be her VP. As if!
Kay
@Applejinx:
The problem is neoliberal trade policies, though. Free traders have never had the courage to tell the plain truth, which is there are winners and losers in trade deals. They end up selling the mitigation to the damage- “we will retrain! We will start enforcing them!” but all that does is highlight that there are winners and losers without admitting it.
The enforcement promises are not credible. Trade is part of foreign policy. This idea that they are going to impose “sanctions” on a country’s economic system is just not true. That’s an incredibly hostile act. They’re never going to impose meaningful economic sanctions related to trade on Vietnam, no matter how many labor organizers they imprison without trial. It’s the economic equivalent of war. Large US companies are not “US companies”, anyway. They’re multi-nationals. Large US companies have no problem at all with imprisoning labor organizers in Vietnam. They’re fine with Vietnam’s actions.
FlipYrWhig
@Applejinx:
It was a _Republican primary_, AJ. It’s not “the Nevada Hispanic vote,” it’s the Nevada REPUBLICAN Hispanic vote. The Nevada Republican black vote isn’t much of an indication of the Nevada black vote or the national black vote, is it?
Gin & Tonic
@OzarkHillbilly: Hey, remember a guy called Nelson “I never wanted to be *vice* president of anything” Rockefeller?
Matt McIrvin
@Betty Cracker: Christ, she would lose so badly if she did that.
dr. bloor
@Betty Cracker: Talk about painting a giant bullseye on your back.
EZSmirkzz
Yet another good read. A defense of Friedman’s analysis of the Sanders’ economic plan.
(Not too sure this doesn’t explain some of Trump’s appeal to the weird beards. YMMV)
If this is accurate it’s time to blow off the traditional blogosphere’s sourcing of economic analysis.
Matt McIrvin
@Elizabelle:
I think it’s important to get this right. Obama already cracked down on unfettered immigration (at some political cost with Latinos). There isn’t this huge wave streaming over the border; net migration from Mexico is actually negative. What they’re upset about is people who already entered the country under Bill Clinton and George W. Bush and are still here.
You can’t stop something that isn’t happening.
Kay
@Applejinx:
The liberal argument on trade assumes winners and losers. It goes like this: “trade lifts wages on the bottom by lowering wages in wealthier countries”. They literally scold working people in the US who make 15 dollars an hour for being ungenerous to people in other countries who make 6 dollars a week.
That all of the people making this argument are academics and think tankers and CEO’s just kind of adds a wonderful, delightfully clueless gloss to this lecture they deliver. This international egalitarian impulse they’re demanding working people in the US adopt doesn’t affect them at all.
It’s also clueless on labor unions, because big labor unions are international:
rikyrah
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
But, this is who they always were.These were the same people supporting W as he lied us into two wars. They want an America where we overrun everybody and everywhere, and have not come to terms with that the rest of the world isn’t taking our bullshyt anymore.
FlipYrWhig
@EZSmirkzz: “Conventional” is doing a ton of heavy lifting there, as usual in that discussion. So basically if you’re called out for your proposals not adding up you can just say I DEFY YOUR REALITY I WILL NOT CONFORM and get a bunch of attaboys from the prog-o-sphere? Seems convenient.
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
He’s not a natural -born citizen..how is he even running?
FlipYrWhig
@Matt McIrvin:
What they’re upset about is having to push 1 for English and that the signs in Home Depot are also in Spanish. They have no idea what anyone’s actual immigration status is and assume that anyone brownish speaking something other than English in public is An Illegal.
Matt McIrvin
@Betty Cracker: Ted Cruz will not get the Republican nomination and will definitely never be President.
OzarkHillbilly
@Gin & Tonic: Your point being? That at some point a rich born on 3rd base life long politician thought the VP slot might be his ticket to the White House? As opposed to a self made rich guy who became bored with just making money and thought being Mayor for a few years would be a nice distraction?
And yes both those characterizations are caricatures, but they serve the point of highlighting the very real differences between the 2.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
I think that ignores what happened with Disney, though. Go read the comments in the NYTimes story on Disney replacing US workers with people on work visas. You’ll find a lot of mid-career, educated people firing off perfectly composed comments, freaking out and vowing never to purchase another Disney product. That was THEM. That could happen to them.
Bobby Thomson
@Matt McIrvin: this.
OzarkHillbilly
@EZSmirkzz: What I remember from Reagan’s time in the WH was that if you we’re gonna lie, go big. Not sure that’s the comparison any one wants to draw between Bernie and Ronnie.
rikyrah
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
WHAT, is the difference between Trump, Rubio and Cruz with regards to Hispanics.
I want you to tell me a POLICY difference between the three.
I believe that there isn’t one, but maybe I’m wrong.
So, if there is NO POLICY difference, then you’re talking about the ‘language’ used by Trump.
And, I call bullshyt.
Like being told the same thing Trump says, but doing it in Frank Luntz-approved language makes the POLICY POSITION any less heinous.
IMO, it doesn’t.
Ben Cisco
@rikyrah:
Yup. From the all-war all-the-time, to the xenophobia, racial animus, willingness to play serf to Big Daddy, ALL OF IT – they’ve ALWAYS been this. We only see the phenomenon of panic in certain quarters because some of the enablers have discovered, to their horror, that there’s a bullseye on THEIR back too.
This ain’t nothing new.
Elizabelle
@Kay: Thank you for pointing that out.
I hope Disney gets fined millions upon millions for abusing the H-1B system like that, and has to hire back its replaced employees, with full backpay and compensation for benefits. Make an example of the Mouse.
EZSmirkzz
@OzarkHillbilly: That’s not the comparison being made in the article either. It’s a statement by John Kenneth Galbraith in summing up his running Sander’s numbers through the standard models.
I would suggest that people that won’t or don’t read the article are probably the poorly educated voters Trump was referring to last night in his victory speech- just sayin’.
Paul in KY
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: I also would think we’d be in more Mideast wars.
EZSmirkzz
@FlipYrWhig: Read the article, then we’ll talk.
Paul in KY
@Mustang Bobby: Huey Long did have much different views than Trump. Sen. Long was more in line with Bernie than anyone else (running now).
Paul in KY
@OzarkHillbilly: I’d be afraid he would offload all the ‘governing’ stuff to a Cheney type.
SFAW
@Gin & Tonic:
Yeah, I remember him NOT running for VP. Unless you consider having Nixon and Agnew resign as Rocky “running” for the office.
Somebody should tell Bloomberg that he’d have to push through a Constitutional amendment stating that he can serve three terms as Veep. (Yes, I realize the Constitution does not limit VP’s terms.)
beltane
@Ben Cisco: This CiF piece in the Guardian actually sums up the Trump phenomenon quite nicely. The media’s squeamishness regarding Trump has nothing to do with policy, and everything to do with the boorishness of the candidate and his supporters. A genteel fascist spouting jargon would be perfectly acceptable to upper-middle-class opinion makers-it’s the anger of Trump supporters that upset them.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
I read a Gates Foundation “think piece” (some kind of white paper or whatever those are called) on immigration. I saw it accidentally. I was reading Gates Foundation stuff on public schools. Anyway, they’re aware of the political risk (they want more visas) because they address it. They write in the proposal that tech companies would fund X program for US workers with X amount in exchange for each additional visa. They know if opposition reaches white collar professionals and managers and engineers and such it’s toxic.
SFAW
@Paul in KY:
A “Cheney type”? Why not the original? He’s not term-limited, and his steady diet of the blood of the innocents helps keep him young.
The Thin Black Duke
I wish people would stop saying that Trump wouldn’t be as bad Cruz/Rubio/(fill in the blank). Trump would be a disaster because this is a guy who wouldn’t know what the fuck to do once he’s in the White House and he’s too arrogant to try to figure it out. Trump would be a dangerous incompetent and it was that same type of dumb ugly incompetence that destroyed New Orleans the day after Katrina came. This country can’t survive another idiot getting “on the job” training when the next crisis arrives.
magurakurin
@EZSmirkzz: Well, check back on March 2nd. If Sanders isn’t facing a 100 delegate deficit then we can talk. Because if he comes out of Super Tuesday with a 100+ delegate deficit then it won’t matter even if he has the formula for cold fusion because he isn’t going to get the nomination. Now that might be an unfortunate fact. But it will still be a fact.
Paul in KY
@Kay: I think Colorado goes for Carson, cause they think he’s stoned.
p.a.
Whether HRC or Bern, given their ages and the stress of the Presidency I’m going to be very interested in the VP choice.
Gin & Tonic
@EZSmirkzz: Maybe a nit to pick, but John Kenneth Galbraith is dead. James Kenneth Galbraith is his son, also an economist, and I believe whom you are quoting.
Disgruntled former Baud supporter
Nice one from Nancy at WoMo today.
This is why we can’t adopt their methods. We believe in having at least a few reasonable rules.
FlipYrWhig
@EZSmirkzz: I did. There’s a kernel of discussion of how a big stimulus could have big results (fine, that’s why we did $700B of it in 2009) slathered in a lot of puffery about “orthodoxy,” “establishment,” and “conventional” this and that. And the people being cited in support include some decided laymen/polemicists like Ryan Cooper and David Dayen, whose opinions I really don’t care about. It’s very similar to the health care plan debate, where the fact that the numbers didn’t really check out devolved immediately into “but it works other places so it should obviously work here and if you don’t see that you’re blinkered and brainwashed.” It’s obnoxious. And it’s continuous. And it pegs as counterrevolutionary enemies people like Alan Krueger and Paul Krugman. Team Bernie really needs to roll back this tendency.
EZSmirkzz
@magurakurin: That math didn’t stop any of us from supporting Bobby in 1968, so it isn’t going to influence me now either. We all support whom we believe best represents our interests, which is why after the primary season everyone falls into line behind the candidate selected.
Thanks for the opportunity to exercise my bile control on the intertubes though.
As I said before I haven’t decided who to support on March second.
magurakurin
@Paul in KY: That dude is stoned. But I don’t think he’s stoned on pot. Something way stronger, like that weird, milky white shit that Michael Jackson was spiking every night. Heavy shit. Shit that would put down the hardest hardcore Amsterdam stoner champion. Scared straight kind of hard nasty shit. Dude is stoned.
Elizabelle
@Kay: Thanks for the heads up re the Gates Foundation piece. Will hunt it down tonight.
Kay
@Paul in KY:
He’s gross to me, because he’s essentially a grifter and he has an actual skill. Ben Carson doesn’t have to grift. He chooses to, maybe because his real job is really hard :)
Mike Huckabee and Sarah Palin have two choices- politician or grifter. Carson has a third option.
I don’t know- isn’t there something in the Bible about how people are called to serve according to their talents? Is he a better grifter than he is a surgeon? He’s not winning elections, that’s for sure.
EZSmirkzz
@FlipYrWhig: That’s BS. Just because people disagree doesn’t make them enemies. To think Krugman is infallible is bordering on religious fanaticism, isn’t it?
Betty Cracker
@The Thin Black Duke: Any of them would be a disaster. But if Trump were elected, as horrible as that would be, the GOP establishment would take a massive hit, something that wouldn’t happen if Cruz, Rubio, etc., were elected. And the GOP establishment, which brought us neocon foreign policy, trickle-down economics, etc., deserves a thorough discrediting.
Elizabelle
@EZSmirkzz: March 2nd primary? Is that a joke? Did you get that date from a Ted Cruz mailer?
Paul in KY
@Uncle Cosmo: Generally, any non-Cuban Hispanic loathes Cubans (ones here). Ones in Cuba they are OK with.
That’s partially because of the special status & also because most of our Cubans were the asshole management, wealthy types that vamoosed out of Cuba when the glorious revolution occurred.
EZSmirkzz
@Elizabelle: Wanted to see if you were sleeping.
magurakurin
@EZSmirkzz: yeah, well, whatever wiggles your waggle chief. If Sanders gets the nod, I’ll send him lawyers, guns and money and vote for him the very second I get my mail in ballot. But he ain’t gonna get the nod. Two really bad polls for him in NJ and MD today. Dark days approaching. The money is running out, too. 34 million dollar burn rate in January alone. This shit has been discussed ad nauseam here. I’m over it. I know who I’m voting for. I’ve read hundreds of articles. I’m done.
Disgruntled former Baud supporter
@rikyrah: 100% agree. Donald Trump has done the country a favor by ripping away the Frank Luntz-coded mask and exposing the racism that the Republican party, right-wing radio, and Fox News have been exploiting for decades.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
I think liberals have to admit that immigration isn’t all about humanitarian impulse. If you look at the alliances in the ’07 immigration reform effort, some very “conservative” actors were negotiating on “business interests PLUS whatever humanitarian goals Kennedy had”- a trade-off. Karl Rove was working the phones brokering the deal between Kennedy and the Latino orgs / GOP Senators and the Chamber of Commerce types. That’s the coalition. It’s why Marco Rubio has to lie about the Gang of Eight. He can’t admit that his position is not “liberal” or based on him being Latino. It’s based on the fact that he’s “establishment” and those are his donors.
EZSmirkzz
@magurakurin: All well and good, I won’t confuse you with facts. But I’ve been running this game to long to have your level of confidence in my prognostications.
Technocrat
@rikyrah:
Tone isn’t a trivial matter though. Cruz supporters aren’t beating up Hispanics in the streets. Given an equally horrific set of policies, I’ll take the guy who isn’t advocating pogroms.
magurakurin
@Elizabelle: and hadn’t Robert Kennedy just won California when he was assassinated? Bobby Kennedy = Bernie Sanders? I was too young, but wouldn’t it be more Eugene McCarthy = Bernie Sanders?
whatever.
Paul in KY
@Kay: It affects those who pay salaries, as they pay less with this ‘egalitarian’ precept in place.
magurakurin
@EZSmirkzz: gee thanks, you seem like a stand up guy. I’d hate to be confused by facts.
Paul in KY
@SFAW: I think he would consider Cheney to be a bit of a failure. He would want a new, shiny, Wormtongue or Mouth of Sauron to do the heavy lifting.
Paul in KY
@The Thin Black Duke: Katrina was a political calculation. It was done with malice aforethought to not help & thus punish the people who made any Democratic win in Louisiana a possibility.
FlipYrWhig
@EZSmirkzz:
That’s not how Team Bernie approaches things. When they find that intelligent, credible people disagree with them, they proceed to find them insufficiently progressive, take away their membership card, and ostracize them from The Movement. It’s a whole campaign based on making enemies, issuing labels, and “epistemic closure” that affirms what they already thought. I find it exhausting.
Paul in KY
@magurakurin: Ketamine? Monkey tranquilizer? Tad of GA? Haldol?
Kay
@Paul in KY:
It’s a weird argument because one would think they would go with “growing the pie” rather than “stop being so selfish and allow workers in developing countries a larger slice”
They admit it’s race to the bottom. They set it up as the worker in Michigan CANNOT make 24 an hour if the worker in Vietnam is to have a job, so why do you hate Vietnamese workers? It just seems so unpersuasive.
“You take a hit for the international community of working people” may be the worst argument in the world to make to someone who is living on 35k, particularly if it’s made by someone who has no personal experience with this brutal “marketplace”.
Just One More Canuck
@EZSmirkzz: Galbraith’s article was discussed last week. It is simply a defense of Friedman’s methodology. But regardless of the soundness of the methodology, Galbraith did not address the underlying assumptions of Friedman’s plan, which are highly unrealistic, which as far as I can see, is the main point of the criticism. Handwaving it away with statements such as “When you dare to do big things, big results should be expected. The Sanders program is big, and when you run it through a standard model, you get a big result” doesn’t make the results any more plausible.
Paul in KY
@Kay: He is a narcissist, through and through.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay:
Who were not undocumented immigrants at all, but guest workers let in perfectly legally under a system that privileges employers looking for low wages.
I’ve said before and will say again: I think all the people currently being let in on H-1Bs should have green cards instead. The downward pressure on wages would be less, the benefit to the economy would be greater. But I don’t suppose this would be any more popular; it’d be less so.
Paul in KY
@Kay: Our side has to mention (IMO) that any right wing type wanting freer immigration only wants it to hire cheaper people.
EZSmirkzz
@magurakurin: Don’t mention it.
magurakurin
@Paul in KY: sonething nasty. The way he pauses and then lets his eyes roll back in his head…damn, that shit is creepy.
Paul in KY
@Kay: It’s also weird as their normal fellow travelers (generic Republican voters) would say ‘I don’t give a fuck about the Vietnamese’.
The argument is entirely directed at our side. I really don’t care about foreign workers either (as far as lowering my salary to help them out).
As you said, the only ‘liberals’ who take the bait on this are ones who make big comfortable salaries & aren’t scared of their jobs being sent to Bumfuckistan.
Applejinx
@magurakurin: This.
None of this will stop me from voting for Bernie… in the Vermont primary. Forgive me if I don’t think that’s going to be a real nail-biter.
I’ve given money until I’m completely tapped out and counting the $10s. If I can get any more, I’ll start giving money again. I’ll volunteer again in Massachusetts if I can: there’s financial constraints, obviously.
And then if he doesn’t win the nomination, due to the political strength of Hillary Clinton, I will be voting for Hillary Clinton and doing everything I can to ensure that means something, that it justifies the assurances I keep hearing around Balloon Juice. (some posts don’t count as assurances, but some absolutely do)
The simple facts are: economic populism and repudiating globalism are gamechangers in 2016. Bernie beats that topic into the ground, and Trump is looking to run to the left of Clinton on that topic. And Hillary can get in front of that wave, or she can choose not to, and risk defeat.
If she does pivot and start out-Bernieing Trump, but effectively and with practical plans, it could be a best-case scenario. But to do so, she’d have to be leading the DNC, not following them. This includes personal friends she has there, who have counseled her poorly and publically embarrassed her (it does look like she knows better than to start denouncing her own people, which is a defensive move)
EZSmirkzz
@FlipYrWhig:I’m not inclined to answer for the behaviors, real or perceived, of other people somewhere in the organization of any given candidate who happen hurt other peoples feelings.
The only real political movement is on your shoulders, I figure one should do it independent of the tune someone else is whistling.
schrodinger's cat
@Matt McIrvin:
Do you have any idea of how many hoops one has to jump through to get an employment based green card? How long the wait is if you are from India, China, Mexico or Phillipines after your petition has been approved. This purity pony ranks up there with free college and single payer.
EZSmirkzz
@Just One More Canuck: Is it Bernie’s plan or Friedman’s? Friedman is a Clinton supporter, as per the article.
As to the plausibility of the plan being enacted, I refer you to the Congressional status quo, and ask whither will Hillary’s plans go?
Paul in KY
@magurakurin: Will be interesting to read some post-mortem about his campaign. Did the pros ever try to stop him from doing that, etc.
Paul in KY
@Applejinx: Don’t go into debt giving money to political campaigns.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@EZSmirkzz:
Far easier to maintain, consolidate and hold your gains, investing people in wanting it to remain than it is to shoot for the moon.
beltane
@Paul in KY: There are a lot of upper-middle-class liberals who feel this way, notwithstanding the fact that their own well-paying jobs could conceivably be done by other people, living elsewhere, for far less money. There is a certain segment of the Democratic party who are repelled by the religiosity, racism, and anti-science tendencies of the GOP, but who strongly believe in the need for belt-tightening among the working classes. These people would absolutely hate for the playing field between their children and their cleaning ladies’ children to be leveled even in the most incremental way.
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: Why should a tech worker (for example) give a crap how long it takes someone in one of those countries to get a green card, for purpose of coming over here to work?
magurakurin
@Paul in KY: Carson is definitely the weirdest one. I’d love to know for real what that eye rolling really is.
Technocrat
@FlipYrWhig:
We’re used to seeing the phenomenon on the Right, with the whole “RINO” thing. Wingnuts can’t wait to find someone insufficiently “conservative”. More than once I’ve thought “If they’re voting Republican, what other requirement do you need?”. I guess now we’re seeing some version of it on our end.
EZSmirkzz
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: That’s the conservative manifesto in a nutshell.
– how gosh.
Paul in KY
@beltane: Yeah, I hate those ideas ‘belt tightening among the working classes’, that some supposed-liberals endorse.
The ONLY legitimate liberal policy on belt tightening is: There should be belt tightening in the 1%, via much higher taxes on their asses. Plus increase on tax rate of investment profits.
FlipYrWhig
@Applejinx:
I wouldn’t call it “the left,” though. It’s a momentary marriage of convenience between the anti-globo left and the nativist, protectionist right. It’d be like saying Rand Paul was running “to the left” of Democrats on foreign policy. No, it just happens to be the case that the isolationist right and the dovish left have some common opinions.
beltane
@magurakurin: About ten years ago I heard Carson interviewed on NPR. It was a wonderful interview which I only remember because I actually found him to be inspiring at the time. The Ben Carson I see now sounds kind of like my ex-husband after his brain bleed episode. Something is plainly wrong with the guy.
Applejinx
@Paul in KY: Too late: and I don’t think that was a mistake. The only reason Bernie’s got as far as he has, is the fundraising. It’s ALL about the money. I’ve done what I can, and if I could do more I could, but there’s a difference between ‘credit card debt’ and ‘TOO MUCH credit card debt’.
The same ability to do the math, which tells me Bernie’s plans have to be ‘opening trial balloons’ subject to further negotiation, tells me unless I manage an upswing in monthly sales, I’m tapped out and have to get back out of debt again. I’m sure Bernie has some sharp words about the credit card industry, but I knew what I was risking. Time to dig myself out, bit by bit.
El Caganer
@Kay: Sounds like neocon foreign policy, doesn’t it? Beat the drums for war to ‘promote democracy,’ send somebody else to fight it.
Miss Bianca
@Kay:
I’ve actually seen a Carson yard sign here in CO – the only one I’ve seen, and the only one for any candidate I’ve seen.
schrodinger's cat
@Paul in KY: Indeed why should they? I forgot workers on skilled visas are taking away the jobs of hardworking Americans, may be we can deport all of them along with the 11 million undocumented. Why stop at that we can get rid of international students while we are at it too, God knows some of them might want to stay back.
beltane
@Paul in KY: Raising the SS retirement age is a particularly cruel form of belt-tightening for those who aren’t lucky enough to have cushy desk jobs with generous sick and vacation leave allowances.
FlipYrWhig
@Technocrat: Most of the history of the left since 1789 or so is that they go centrifugal, take sides, call out each other’s sins and failings, then call out their _own_ sins and failings, then shrink, and then melt away. That’s why people eventually started talking up “intersectionality,” as opposed to saying that there’s only One Real Problem for a vanguard to fix and everyone else has both the problem and the solution totally wrong.
Paul in KY
@magurakurin: Maybe he’s a secret Satanist & due to excessive horror movie watching in youth (when he wasn’t out thugging), he thinks he has to do the eye roll thing?
Would be irresponsible not to speculate…
Paul in KY
@Applejinx: You are a fine person, I think & want to do good. Sometimes, these campaigns can feed that impulse & if you are not careful, you become too emotionally invested (to point where you give beyond your means).
I don’t think any of them (on either side) have any mechanism where they would stop sending you requests, if you had responded a bunch of times with money. That probably makes them send you more.
Bobby Thomson
@Elizabelle: given that immigration from Mexico is a net negative right now, it’s a red herring and people blaming the economy on that are falling for explicitly racist rhetoric.
rikyrah
BWA HA HA HA HA H AH HA
ALLLLL about the G-R-I-F-T
………………………………………
Does Ben Carson Suspect His Campaign Was a Scam?
“We had people who didn’t really seem to understand finances,” he said. “Or maybe they did—maybe they were doing it on purpose.”
DAVID A. GRAHAM 6:03 AM ET POLITICS
For months, reporters and political operatives (including me) have been pointing out that Ben Carson’s campaign bears many of the hallmarks of a political scam operation. Now Carson seems to agree. On CNN on Tuesday, Carson discussed his year-end staff shake-up:
“We had people who didn’t really seem to understand finances,” a laughing Carson told CNN’s Poppy Harlow on “CNN Newsroom,” adding, “or maybe they did—maybe they were doing it on purpose.”
It’s a remarkable statement—especially because he’s so blithe about it
Just One More Canuck
@EZSmirkzz: As I understand it, it is Friedman’s assessment of Sanders’ plan.
My point about being plausible was not from a political (all the more reason to GOTV, so to make it more politically possible) but from a historical and economic standpoint
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: There’s nothing inherently wrong with someone from India (as an example) wanting to come over here to work & make money & using the H1B Visa program to make it happen.
There is also nothing inherently wrong with a person over here (who might be considered a future competitor of the Indian person) not being particularly invested with making it as easy as possible for them to come over here & maybe wanting a few more hoops for them to jump through before they make it here.
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
As always, I would say that it is too early to say.
However, Trump’s ascendancy has been surprisingly unpredictable. I think this would make him a dangerous and formidable opponent.
Clinton’s unfavorable ratings are high. And although the Clintons may not actually be a dynasty, some perceive them that way, and are as eager to see them fall as they were happy to see Jeb!’s Bush ambitions dashed.
Hillary easily wins if voters apply the least amount of common sense. But these are strange times.
EZSmirkzz
No one could have predicted this.
Paul in KY
@beltane: Completely agree. What I think the liberal position on SS oughta be is raise the salary ceiling that gets subjected to SS. Think it is $125,000 or thereabouts. Make it $500,000.
Iowa Old Lady
@beltane: Sometimes I suspect the politicians calling for the SS age to be raised don’t know it’s already been raised to 67. No amount of ignorance on their part would surprise me.
Paul in KY
@rikyrah: Must have had his bump…
Betty Cracker
@Miss Bianca: By Peggy Noonan standards, that means Carson is a shoo-in!
@Brachiator: Yep.
EZSmirkzz
@Just One More Canuck: Welcome to Bernie’s political revolution.
I don’t think any Democratic policy initiatives are possible so long as the Democratic Party remains anemic on the state levels. Whatever Howard Dean started with his 50 state strategy died on the vine as soon as it began to bear fruit.
This says more about the Democratic Party leadership, ie greedy, short sighted, mother’s little chauvinists, than about the Democratic base, and the wellspring of he Sander’s campaign, IMHO. I could tell Hillary why she doesn’t inspire young people, but then I just did.
Barbara
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: WaPo comments are scary. They are only “lightly” moderated, and my suspicion is that many of the political pieces are heavily trolled by interns and low level employees at think tanks and lobbying shops.
Matt McIrvin
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m aware that what I’m wishing for here isn’t gonna happen.
Germy
@Iowa Old Lady: I was in a grocery store yesterday and saw a woman who looked to be in her early ’80s stocking shelves. Now, there is the argument that old folks like to keep busy and useful, rather than just sitting home, but this woman didn’t look particularly happy to be there.
What bugs me is when I see the AARP magazine editors repeat their “Don’t Retire!” mantra. “If you work until you’re 72, you’ll make an extra twenty dollars a month than if you retire at 67!”
In the letters column, one reader said something to the effect of “That’s all well and good if you’re absolutely certain you’ll live to 95. But the person who retires at 67 makes more SS money in the long run than the worker bee who waits until age 73 to collect, and then keels over at 74.”
And with all the recent college graduates unable to find jobs, why do they want 72 year olds working? There’s plenty of volunteer work for retirees who get bored.
What bugs me is the editors of AARP magazine LOVE their jobs. They simply don’t understand that not everybody loves their job.
schrodinger's cat
@Paul in KY: What about the people who have been here for years? They have given this country the best years of their lives, have paid into SS and Medicare along with income taxes. Are qualified.
I think the last time this conversation came up, I gave an example of my friend who is pediatric oncologist. She had a medical degree from India when she came here. A medical degree from India is not recognized in the US. So she did a Master’s in Health management, then did a residency in pediatric oncology and hematology at Johns Hopkins. A two year stint at NIH. She hasn’t even begun on her path to a GC. Right now she is on an H1-B visa, working at an urban hospital in DC, the only employer who would sponsor her. I guess she should just go home right, the moocher that she is. She has been in the US since 2002.
beltane
@Brachiator: Donald Trump is truly a wild card who makes any kind of prediction extremely difficult. So far, he is driving up turnout among white, lower and lower-middle class, infrequent voters, people who have been living under the radar for over a generation. These people don’t really care about nuanced policy arguments, they want a candidate who will just stand up and say “F-ck You!” to everyone and everything.
Matt McIrvin
…That said: Tech workers worried about H-1Bs aren’t Donald Trump’s core voters. He’s not talking about building a wall to keep out Indian programmers (unless they’re Muslims). It’s the imaginary flood of Mexicans that they think are invading the country.
beltane
@Germy: I am assuming that the editors of the AARP magazine earn substantially more than the elderly lady stocking shelves in the supermarket.
Barbara
@Baud: I am so frightened by Cruz that I do not want to entertain any likelihood that he would become president. He is scary enough as senator.
Germy
@beltane:
I’d love to see them spend a few weeks stocking shelves or rotating tires or driving a truck long distances, then come back and try to tell people not to retire.
schrodinger's cat
@Paul in KY: Physicians have made it very difficult for other physicians to immigrate, see my comment #224, after a lot of physicians immigrated in the 70s. Now there are huge shortages of both physicians and nurses, especially in rural areas. So that worked out really well for everyone.
Miss Bianca
@Paul in KY:
Huey Long may have been a demagogue, but at least he DID stuff for the poor of LA. That’s why so many of them loved him. Hell, I remember watching a documentary on HPL back in the 80s, and a poor old Cajun guy was sitting there practically with tears in his eyes, talking about Huey was the only one who ever did anything for them.
That’s what these GOPers don’t seem to be figuring out – that eventually, you have to DELIVER on promises you make. And, ultimately, that delivering a “I’m gonna make government work for YOU” message – and delivering on it – is a way more effective route to power than “I’m gonna make sure government doesn’t work for ANYBODY (except the rich)” and delivering on that.
At least, I hope that’s the message behind the popularity of both Trump and Sen. Sanders as candidates. Wasn’t it HL Mencken who said you’d never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public?
schrodinger's cat
@Matt McIrvin: He is tapping into the xenophobic sentiment that runs high in times of economic anxiety. Something that many BJ commenters are not immune from either.
EZSmirkzz
Now it’s time to say goodbye
I really don’t know why,
I’ve got a life,
have a wife,
and news on the TV.
gee.
Paul in KY
@Germy: I had a boss once who just LOVED her job & couldn’t understand why I didn’t love mine. Of course, she got to do basically whatever she wanted & made $90,000 a year (back in 1989). I did not.
raven
@Miss Bianca: That was Morning Joe’s rant this morning. He said everyone in the race but Hillary is promising shit they can’t deliver!
beltane
@Miss Bianca: A true Peronist presidential candidate would do very well in the USA of 2016.
Germy
@Paul in KY: I had a boss about ten years ago who was rarely in the office. She’d come in every morning, stay for about a half hour, then disappear to do personal errands. She’d come back later in the afternoon. There was nobody above her watching her, so this went on for quite a few years. Finally, she was moved sideways into a different position and replaced with another person who basically does nothing. Both are quite fond of their jobs.
Those of us doing the work can’t wait for the weekend.
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: What about her? She’s made a boatload of money. Hope she stays here. Should try & become a citizen. If she ended up going back, unless she’s into the powder, she should take a lot of cash back with her.
What about a hypothetical person who was removed from their job to make way for her or some other H1B person (at less salary)? Should there be any sympathy for them?
Bobby Thomson
@magurakurin: I see no evidence that anyone is getting clean for Bernie.
Peale
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Wait – so the solution to our immigration problem is invading Guatemala? What would we do with it once we had it?
El Caganer
@schrodinger’s cat: This is a point that Dean Baker has been making for a while, and specifically with regard to physicians.
FlipYrWhig
@EZSmirkzz:
Maybe fickle young people aren’t the Democratic base, then, being that “base” means a diehard core of support.
Miss Bianca
@Paul in KY:
OK, you just made me snort into my hippie speedball…I mean, my coffee, of course, COMPLETELY unenhanced by anything but mini-moo’s…
Paul in KY
@Miss Bianca: Well, it takes a voter to understand that (and a political party to ensure they do).
The GOP has cornered the single issue voter (evangelicals, mostly) who by every rational, common sense, living-in-the-here-and-now reason should never vote for them, but they’ve been convinced that when they get to heaven, after dying young from the solvents they inhaled in their menial wage job, that Jaysus will lift them up for voting time & again to save the unborn babbies.
How do we convince them that they’ve been played for fools or their priorities are messed up or whatever?
Bobby Thomson
@FlipYrWhig: wait a minute. Are you telling me the “base” doesn’t mean “opinionated people who spend a lot of time on the internet?”
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: I don’t think it is ‘xenophobic’ to not particularly care how many hoops a non-citizen of this country (from any other part of the world) has to jump through to get here. I expect them to jump the hoops & get here eventually.
Your concern reminds me of the excessive (to me) concern a lot of Jewish citizens have for another nation state.
schrodinger's cat
@Paul in KY: She made a boatload of money? And someone lost a job because she got hers? Wrong on both counts. Whether you like it or not immigrants serve a need.
If she has not yet become a citizen it is not for the lack of trying on her part. I am giving you a specific example of hard it is to immigrate for someone with excellent credentials (get a GC and then apply for citizenship after 5 years) you are just being glib. Fine, I will stop now.
gene108
@Matt McIrvin:
Mexican (Latino) illegals are the low hanging fruit, Once they are all deported, the next step is to go after the Indians on H1-b visas. They only issue 65k per year. It’s a pretty small portion of the population.
The next step is to look for ways to revoke naturalization processes to deny people citizenship.
And finally to revoke birth right citizenship, except for the “right” kind of people.
The cry against illegal immigration is just cover for racist xenophobia, which given the chance will let its freak flag fly, but so far has just stayed on the down-low and only blathers about illegals.
schrodinger's cat
@gene108: Yep that’s where this is headed. Ted Cruz wants to get rid of the OPT. FAIR is sounding alarm about legal immigration and on and on it goes.
Kay
@schrodinger’s cat:
I absolutely think some fill a need, but there is abuse. There was outrage in Ohio because a charter school was hiring Turkish teachers- the school is connected to a religious sect in Turkey. There’s no shortage of teachers in Ohio and the school doesn’t score any higher or offer anything different than public schools, other than what is rumored to be a preference for hiring men over women. They just wanted to pay 25 or 30k instead of 32 to 45k. It was particularly egregious because it’s all public funding.
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: If she’s a ‘pediatric oncologist’, then compared to me, I’m sure she has made a boatload of money. Of course, she has more education than I, so I’m fine with her salary. Hope she gets more.
I said that hypothetically someone might have lost their job. Unless she heard from her co-workers, how would she know? Certainly there are people already here (citizens & non-citizens) who have been fired to be replaced by an H1B visa person. Not that H1B person’s fault, it is the ‘fault’ (if any) of the person/organization who did the firing.
I am just saying that I don’t really care how hard it is for them. I have more important (to me) things to care about.
gene108
@schrodinger’s cat:
Employment based green cards, which your friend is trying to do, have become ridiculously difficult to get.
As of September 2015, the last time visa processing dates are available, USCIS went from processing applications received after Oct 2008 to Jan 2006, for qualified professionals with a Master’s degree or equivalent from India. THEY WENT BACKWARDS!
This means, if you filed a petition in November 2008 and were thinking you are next in line, tough titties…you have to wait because only those people, who filed before Jan 2006 will be considered.
If you only have a Bachelor’s, they actually went forward from June 2004 to Dec 2004.
The fix to this is simple.
There are plenty of countries, with unused GC’s, as each country is allotted a certain quota. Just reallocate those to India and China, where the backlogs are and you’d get people GC’s quicker.
But Congress does not want to do this.
Foolish.
It’d be a big boost for the housing market. Thousands of highly paid professionals no longer worrying about their immigration status will be looking to buy a house and settle down.
Brachiator
@beltane:
Hell, most of the Berniebots here don’t care about nuanced policy arguments.
Trump’s appeal is wider than you suggest. I’m surprised people are not paying attention to the demographics. Also, Trump’s candidacy is still young. People need to pay attention as more primaries take place.
Also, you raise another interesting point:
But these are also people who have been hit hard by the economic downturn and who have not voted because they don’t see either party as caring about them. And, oddly, I sometimes get the impression that some here think that abiding loyalty to the Democratic Party is required in order to have your concerns considered worthy. It is a strange, and self-defeating kind of political elitism.
The entirely phony Tea Party was based on the idea that the GOP had failed its constituents. Shocking Fox News, the Koch Boys and the other conservative money men, the GOP base rebelled and shook off those who tried to manipulate them. Many of these people have found a cause in Trump. On the liberal side, Sanders has found a way to appeal to the small Naderite fringe who have been yearning for purity and unicorns. But he is also finding support among larger groups of liberals who feel as left out as do Trump supporters.
In the end, people don’t vote policy arguments. They vote for those who they think will help make their lives better.
gene108
@schrodinger’s cat:
And many liberals will line up right behind Ted Cruz, because they do not want people “coming for their jobs” on H1-b visas.
Cckids
@Applejinx: Any Hispanic person who is a Republican most likely has a strong current of IGMFY running along their spine.
schrodinger's cat
@Paul in KY:
I am not that far from where she is. I get her struggle. I get that you don’t care and here’s hoping that you don’t need services of a pediatric hematologist/oncologist job thief.
Elizabelle
Spanking new thread by Mr. Levenson. On SCOTUS.
Kay
@gene108:
Ah, but that’s political, and sometimes complicated for Democrats. It came up in the ’07 reform bill. They don’t want it perceived as a move away from certain groups of immigrants (country of origin) and towards others. Obviously that wouldn’t be your intent, but that is how it could be perceived among various Democratic constituencies.
schrodinger's cat
@Kay: No one really cares for the people caught up in the immigration morass, except as a political football.
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: Ms. S. Cat: you’ve made some good points, and would love to discuss further, but have to go out for a few hours.
Maybe we could do a thread on actual immigration policy and goals later, or you could open a thread at your own blog, with suitable kitteh. (Not doing that to suggest the topic does not belong on BJ. It’s a huge one, and could be a real problem for the Democrats this fall and after. Just that’s it’s a great one to discuss, but is shaping up at the end of a longish thread.)
Catch you guys later.
schrodinger's cat
@Kay: There definitely is abuse. USCIS is chronically underfunded and understaffed, why not expand their operations and add more staff?
* I kid, I kid.
Miss Bianca
@Paul in KY:
I don’t know, but I remember reading a book by Edmund Crispin when I was a kid, featuring a character named Gervase Fen. Somehow or other, Gervase Fen ends up standing for a seat for Parliament in his district. In a desparate attempt NOT to get elected, he stands up before his proposed constituents at a stump occasion and essentially tells them they’re idiots who don’t deserve his representation. To his horror, this resonates with them and he gets elected.
For some time now, I’ve entertained this fantasy of running as a Dem for county commissioner in my deep-red county, and basically saying what you’ve said above. It wouldn’t get me elected, but it would NOT get me elected far more entertainingly than earnest attempts to persuade.
Of course, it might also get me shot at, but that could happen all too easily here anyway…
beltane
@Brachiator: I agree with your assessment. In NH, Trump did extremely well with first time voters, and both his and Sanders’ supporters tended to be overwhelmingly lower income. These aren’t even Teabaggers, these are just people who come from the 50% of American that doesn’t vote. There is a whole cadre of Americans who have been shut out of the middle class, probably forever, and none of the mainstream candidates from either party really speaks to their interests (probably because they are not regular voters). If Trump runs on a “Free Lunch for Real Americans”, Front National type platform, this whole election could become wildly unpredictable.
singfoom
@schrodinger’s cat: I can’t speak for Paul in KY, but it being a lower priority on the totem pole of things to care about != don’t care in my book.
I feel for your friend and I wish that the employment based green cards were easier to get and someone who has been here for 14+ years deserves a shot at citizenship. That said, H1-Bs are abused by employers and used to depress wages for American tech workers.
If there was some reform to the H1-B program to make sure they were paid market wages for their skillset AND allowed to change jobs once here, I think it would be different.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with tech workers being against H1-B visas in their current form / how they’re used.
I don’t think that’s equivalent to “DE TOOK OUR JERBS!” but rather recognizing that the system is set up for the corporate level to hire from outside the country in order to undercut wages.
I sympathize with your friends plight and everyone deserves a living wage, but concern about people tends to go down the further away you get from your circle. That’s human nature…
Kay
@schrodinger’s cat:
I think they cared,. Ted Kennedy cared, he just cared about one piece which was the 12 million who are here and he cared about guarding against any kind of turning away from immigrants coming from Mexico and Central and South America.
Allocating quotas based on need or supply – moving away from country of origin as the measure for quotas- worried some liberals in the ’07 deal because they said “need or supply” would act as a kind of proxy to “favor” immigrants from India and China over Latino immigrants. That’s a problem for them politically.
I was thinking about it with Donald Trump and the “ban Muslims”. He can’t ban Muslims but he can do a lot to essentially bar immigration from Muslim countries, which is essentially the same thing. He can just use “Muslim- majority country” as proxy for “Muslims” and reach mostly the same result.
schrodinger's cat
@singfoom: Thanks! There is definitely abuse but
1. AFAIK H1-Bs are the only the bridge visas that I know of that are available to skilled workers who want to eventually immigrate (H1-B–>GC–>Citizenship).
2. H1-Bs are not just for tech workers.
The question is whether we want the temporary workers (skilled, unskilled) to put down roots here and eventually become citizens if they want to do so, or not. If the answer is yes, then we must make the path to citizenship less onerous.
jurassicpork
Ted Cruz: A Liar in Winter, by Mike Flannigan.
Aleta
@Germy: Older people who are carrying a lot of debt can’t retire. And cost of prescriptions for some is a big expense.
Trump said he’ll repeal the ACA. Voters might be split on that, but they’re in agreement on lowering cost of their drugs. That concern holds across divides in income, education, ethnicity. I think it will be effective attack ad material in the hands of the Clintons or Sanders.
Paul in KY
@beltane: Here it is:
You need a raise. the people who give the raises are the business owners, who are Republicans. If they give you a raise, that money basically comes out of their pocket (or so they think).
Right now your raise money is being invested and taxed at 15%. If they give you a raise, they are hoping for more productivity, which will result in more profit for them. However, that profit will be taxed at 37%. The other options are that there is no profit from giving you raises or maybe even less.
Thus with investment income being taxed so low, they see no particular reason to give you a raise. You need to get people into power who will make it worth their while to give you that raise.
I can assure you that you will never get your deserved raises with the Republicans in power.
Paul in KY
@Aleta: Well, if you want your drug prices lowered, then Republicans are surely who you must vote for!! Cause everyone knows the drug companies are owned by hippy Democratic-Commies & the Republicans would love to stick it to those companies by lowering the amounts they can get for their wares!
Aleta
@jurassicpork: Cruz hates Christmas so much that he mocked our sacred Christmas text foretelling of the gifts that will be delivered to true believers.
Applejinx
@Miss Bianca: “Buried For Pleasure”, by Edmund Crispin! I’m happy to say I have that. Only published author I know who regularly uses words outside my vocabulary :)
Sadly, Gervase Fen’s best described as an insufferable glibertarian, but in his defense he had no intention of being elected. Case in point:
He won by a single vote, but discovered to his delight that he’d spent seven pounds more than he was allowed to, and was thus disqualified. Rejoicing, he sought to toast the Fish Inn, at which he’d been staying, whereupon it fell over.
Thank goodness such stories can’t happen here o_O
Miss Bianca
@Applejinx:
Wow. Yup, that would be the book. Yes, I remembered that there was some technicality that prevented Gervase from actually serving, but couldn’t remember what it was.
What, you mean you can’t imagine Sen. Sanders making a speech like that? (I kid, I KID…)
Peale
@singfoom: Yep. Its abusive and pretending it doesn’t exist and being concerned about it is race hatred is going to get Dems killed, just like it did in the midterms. Immigration is not a wedge issue for Republicans. They can run on it and win and not lose support (as long as they don’t do anything about it). But when you look at opinion polls and you get 70% of the people supporting draconian measures (like they were in 2010 in Arizona), you don’t get that level support without peeling off siginificant numbers of democrats.
Goblue72
@Brachiator: The screeching Berniebots of BJ exist solely in your fevered imagination.