I really am Henny Penny, and I know this, so bear with me as I have my public emotional breakdowns this primary season. Here is some good news:
After Hillary Clinton built a commanding advantage in the Democratic race on Super Tuesday, some liberal forces that had been more sympathetic to Bernie Sanders appear ready to line up behind Clinton with an eye to the bigger looming challenge: Donald Trump.
Though voters in dozens of states have yet to cast ballots and Sanders has amassed a significant campaign war chest on the strength of his grass-roots appeal, Democrats appear more eager than ever to close ranks at a time when Republican divisions are only deepening.
Even as Clinton was sweeping to victory in delegate-rich states Tuesday, building an advantage Sanders is increasingly unlikely to reverse, some progressive groups began to realign their messages.
MoveOn.org, which has formally endorsed Sanders, spent as much of its statement on Tuesday’s primaries warning about the threat posed by Trump as it did praising the potency of Sanders’ message.
“If Trump is the Republican standard-bearer, it will be crucial for progressives, and all Americans, to unite to defeat a man who represents the antithesis of everything our nation stands for,” said MoveOn’s executive director, Ilya Sheyman.
Good.
Jeffro
People forget that it works both ways…whether the R nominee is Trump or Cruz or whomever, that loon will help unify the Left just as Hillary (or Bernie, or Bernie!) will help unify the Right.
The things we have going for us are, we’re largely satisfied with our D choices, and the party is largely unified on the issues (not to mention obviously being on the right side of the issues). Our candidates have been respectful to each other and should have little problem bringing the party together in the fall. And unlike the GOP in 2008, we have an outgoing president who’s popular within the party who can help GOTV.
The GOP would kill, absolutely KILL, to be in our position at this point.
Brachiator
Sanity. And so early. A good sign, perhaps.
Who says there ain’t no Sanity Clause?
bemused senior
For those of you who love Hilzoy’s analysis of politics, this is quite convincing about how Drumpf is where he is.
Ben Cisco
Knowing who the true enemy is has its merits.
debbie
I posted this in the Rubio thread, but it works here just as well. Snap out of it.
Yutsano
I do want the Sanders voters to make their voices heard. And I do want them to support the eventual nominee who is looking more and more like Secretary Clinton. It seems like the best use of their voices now is making sure the Democrats retake the Senate and narrow the gap in the House. Will it happen? I honestly don’t know.
Xboxershorts
Be careful what you ask for.
That is all.
p.a.
John do you get this wired during Stiller playoff games?
aimai
I just sent Hilz some money. Like a lot of people I think I figured if she wanted to be president again she and Bill could pay for it. But I just voted for her in the primary here and I am actually very excited for her candidacy so I decided I’d better put my money where my mouth is and send her some. Elizabeth Warren is fighting to raise money to recapture the Senate. I feel good about where my party is and how hard it is going to fight against Trump and against the Republican party. So: let ‘er rip! Lets get to it.
John Cole
@p.a.:
No. Sports is just a stupid game.
People’s lives are at stake here. Politics is deadly serious, even though our well-fed, housed, and insured smirking bobbleheads think it is a game.
Comrade Jake
Anyone reading Erick Erickson’s Twitter Feed? It’s hilarious. He’s calling for Cruz and Rubio to form a unity ticket right now – it’s the only way they can stop Trump!
jl
@Comrade Jake: Is EE volunteering to separate Cruz and Rubio before they kill each other over who will be pres and veep noms? That would be some unity ticket. Maybe they could both be unity dual veep nom under unity Mitt?
jl
And, I am panicking over Cole’s sudden lack of panic!
!!
Comrade Jake
@jl: Erick is swimming in denial. It’s most excellent!
goblue72
If Democrats are this scared of Trump that they need to start the “YOU MUST CIRCLE THE WAGONS AND UNIFY!” bullshit this early, then Democrats deserve to lose to Trump.
TallPete
Progressives and Americans unite! Behind Bernie.
Kay
@Jeffro:
I agree and I hope they get credit for it in the election. One would hope they would, but that isn’t always how it works. I watched both the last D debate and the last R debate and it was like watching elections in two different countries. I don’t know if you noticed but Republicans never talk about voters or the public at their debates. They talk about themselves, the other candidates, Ronald Reagan, and Conservative Principles.
feebog
Can’t wait for the first debate between Drumpf and Hilz. The difficult part will be the prep; exactly what oppo research will be the most effective. So far, I like the Trump University scandal. Easy to understand, and it makes the “con man” meme come alive.
Peale
@Comrade Jake: yeah. That’ll work. Is it possible to eliminate the VP slot on the ballot and run two people for president at the same time?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Jeffro:
The Morning Joe crowd was in total freakout mode this morning saying there would never be another elected Republican President after Shrub.
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: Typical Baud! supporter.
Kay
@TallPete:
My middle son is sticking with the Bernster in the OH primary. I’m glad for him. He’s 21 and he knows Bernie won’t win but that is who he wants to vote for and I’m glad he has that choice.
p.a.
@jl: It’s a zero-sum affair!
Bill E Pilgrim
As I’ve pointed out several times, there’s a precedent, not that long ago. Different country, different culture, yes but still. The freakout I see keeps reminding me of it.
2002. France. Jean-Marie Le Pen ended up as the equivalent (very roughly) of a Republican nominee for President. The first round of voting is somewhat like our entire primary process, except of course it’s much quicker. So the freakout was all at once. It was sort of amazing.
Here’s the punchline though:
And no, Le Pen’s daughter isn’t about to become President either, despite what you might have heard. Things have changed since 2002, but not that much.
Anyway that result represented virtually all of the fractured voting blocks banding together to defeat him, similar to what’s hinted at in this post.
That’s why the Republicans are freaking out, it’s not “conservative values”, it’s that they know that with him they’ll lose, badly. Maybe not 82/18, but badly.
p.a.
@Comrade Jake:
Big fuckin crocks!
muddy
The autoplay ora.tv is back on the site and my adblocker won’t address it. It makes the page reload continually. Alain said he had taken it away and that he didn’t know how it got there in the first place.
Andy
@TallPete:
Never, unheard of, the A/A community has spoken, Hillary is the “One”.
Berniebro!
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@feebog:
The ripped off a Trump University customers, for starters, and every stiffed vendor and real estate buyer on every failed venture.
When Trump says “I took advantage of laws that every other businessman does, did well and made out very successfully”, point out that personal success at the expense of smaller businesses, customers and vendors are no success at all- that the measure of success in a business isn’t just your own bottom line, but the satisfaction of all parties to transactions. Explain that the country must have a leader committed to all, and not just his own ego.
GregB
Does this mean Hilary and Bernie will mend fences before Hillary has the chance to make fun of the size of Bernie’s tallywhacker?
Aunt Kathy
Can’t remember if I got this here or wherever, but it bears repeating. We can’t afford to lose our sh&t like the 2008 PUMAs.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
Also point to Trump Vodka, Trump Steaks, Trump Airlines, Trump Casinos…
ETA: There is a Trump Casino in Vegas, but I don’t know if he owns it or is just has his name on it like most “Trump” stuff.
Aunt Kathy
Dammit, I can’t internet, here. https://youtu.be/VeGPzk8Oca8
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@BillinGlendaleCA:
His schtick has always been to emerge successfully from the wreckage on a personal basis, but leaving a lot of devastation behind.
schrodinger's cat
@bemused senior: I have one problem with this analysis. If one is really interested one can figure it out for oneself, the resources are available. Yes, not every one can do it but many can but don’t.
Especially, something like health care, one can go to thomas hosted by the Library of Congress. and look up the provisions of ACA for themselves. Not having insurance can be be a matter of life death, so its definitely a good investment of time/
John Cole
@muddy: Ghostery?
Jeffro
@Kay:
Great point and yet another easy-pickings DNC (or heaven help me, pro-D super-PAC) commercial if they want to use excerpts from both debates. Let’s call it, oh, “The Adults in the Room”
Another Holocene Human
@aimai: I just gave money to Hillz too; she’s gonna need it. I’ll have a chance to vote for her soon. I was an Anybody But Hilary bot but O’Malley and Bernie Sanders successfully changed my mind.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class:
And that’s the ad that his Democratic opponent can run.
Another Holocene Human
@goblue72:
Ladies and gentlement, the True Progressive has spoken.
So it turns out at the heart of the drive for leftie purity is pure misanthropy.
Mnemosyne
@Bill E Pilgrim:
As I keep saying, I’m holding my fire until the primary is over, because I’d be fine with either Hillary or Bernie as our nominee. But, god, do I want to run up the score against Trump (or whatever brokered nominee exits their convention). I want it to be a fucking 1984-like humiliation.
Another Holocene Human
@TallPete:
But not African-Americans, don’t assume that’s implied by ‘Americans’. Honey, that’s just a nice way to say ‘whites only.’ Latin@s also; Bernie will take your votes but understand, your issues are not a “priority”, okay? When the Revolution comes we’ll do something. But these are imperfect times.
Another Holocene Human
@Bill E Pilgrim: I remember that election. Chirac was pretty right wing which is why lots of factions refused to vote for him at first, but given a choice between him and Le Pen….
Jeffro
@BillinGlendaleCA:
And freak out they should…I was trying to come up with what a Democratic equivalent of this crack-up would look and feel like, and yeah, I get it, it’s genuinely unsettling (if entirely deserved on their part).
Unfortunately, I think within another presidential election cycle or two, there will be a brand new Freedom Party ™ spouting most of their the same nonsense, just without the overt racism. And while that is just a guess, one thing is certain: the Koch network will be perfectly happy to keep the federal government pretty jammed up while funneling unbelievable amounts of money to state and local government candidates that believe in their agenda. Ugh.
debbie
@BillinGlendaleCA:
They will do everything except reflect on their own role in getting themselves into the mess they’ve found themselves in.
Wag
I’m a total Bernie supporter, and to this I have only one thing to say…
This. A thousand times, This.
F*** Trump and the GOP
Mnemosyne
Also, Cole, I still think you should get screened for ADHD one of these days. Soooo many signs …
Matt McIrvin
@feebog: Trump’s so unpredictable that it’s hard to know whether he’ll start flinging vulgar insults or try to go statesmanlike, Gish Gallop with assertions too outrageous to rebut or say a few true things with broad appeal. I think he will try the “left” attack on Iraq, since he’s already used it on Jeb Bush and it can be deployed on Hillary Clinton as well, and if she’s not stupid she has to be figuring out what she’d say to that.
Tim C.
What I really want is something like near the season 4 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In the Episode, Buffy, Xander, Willow and Miles have a ritual where all their powers are combined.. Imagine the fear in GOP hearts when Berniarlly Clinters arrives on the scene?
Okay, I’m done now.
Chyron HR
@goblue72:
@TallPete:
“Hillary voters are committing suicide by the hundreds at the gates of Berniedad!”
Bob in Portland
What Clinton supporters don’t seem to understand is that many Sanders supporters don’t see it as Democrats versus Republicans. Hillary does have an advantage over Republicans in the field of human rights (within the US, not within her foreign policy) and women’s rights (which is a subset of human rights) but economically she has demonstrated herself as an insider in the halls of power. In my small sample base, most see Clinton as a Republican and as supporting the corrupt system. Plus, she’s been a horrendous warmonger. Kissinger and Albright don’t win points over here.
So the premature kumbayahs coming from Clinton’s camp are falling on deaf ears. I suspect that Clinton will continue to build a lead until March 15. After that the advantage goes to Sanders.
Applejinx
I outlined in a previous thread a scenario that would end up with Hillary booting DWS in a kabuki theater move that’d display her charging to the rescue of Warren’s endangered legislation, saving the day and getting Warren’s very public endorsement in a way that neatly defuses progressive concerns.
It’s even possible to take that still farther: probably can’t happen yet, but as soon as she can, she could offer the DNC chair to Bernie in exchange for yielding the Presidency to her. She goes uncontested, he takes over the DNC and is the top guy… at which point he turns the 40 million dollar war chest over to the DNC as it’s ‘his’ now.
Personally, I can’t see why DWS would be doing this if NOT to set up a scene of political kabuki where she takes a scripted dive after horrifying everybody. I mean, payday lenders? Come the fuck on. This is obvious bullshit.
If it’s not an elaborate kayfabe, I don’t want to live in this country anymore, holy fuck with the supposed Left in a contested primary taking a detour to defend PAYDAY LENDERS. Jeebus! That can’t be real.
But I don’t think it is real. I think it’s a stunt. And I think it’s to let Clinton rescue Warren, paving the way for Warren’s endorsement and for something to conveniently point to when Clinton is accused of doing things like, say, supporting sleazy bankers like for instance payday lenders. it’s mighty convenient.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@Bob in Portland: Hillary Clinton, well known for advocating right-to-work, repealing the estate tax, outlawing abortion, deregulating the insurance industry, etc.
Currants
Love that you’re a Henny Penny, John. I highly recommend reading Nate Silver regularly. In 2008 every time I thought the sky was falling, he calmed me down. ;-)
Applejinx
@Tim C.: Easy. Clinton’s the nominee, Bernie takes over the DNC to revitalize and reboot it and throws his over 40 million dollars into the pot. Clinton rescues Warren, the very unpopular Debbie goes off with a large sum of money and the eternal thanks of the Clintons for so ably playing her role, Warren continues to be an inspiring and well-connected figure, and the Berniebots believe they have stormed the castle from the inside and remain engaged and donating.
Berniarlly Clinters, bitches ;) you can in fact run BOTH of them for President if you appear to put Bernie in charge of the campaign. It wouldn’t be quite true, but pretty close. And he’s demonstrated a staggering fundraising ability. In the event he can’t close the nomination, this’d be the best way to handle Bernie.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@Applejinx: I don’t think Bernie would make a good DNC chair. How has he demonstrated that he could properly manage the retaking of Congress? It’s very clear by now that his approach was not enough to even win his own race.
I’d prefer Obama, though I’d prefer Obama for everything.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“most”? so not even all the voices in your head agree with you?
I may have to donate to HRC just for this
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I used to think you were a spoof, but I don’t think a spoof could come up with such a silly notion.
FlipYrWhig
@Applejinx: It’s possible to take that still farther: probably Debbie Wasserman Schultz arranged the whole thing so that Hillary Clinton would be concerned about winning Florida, so she’d offer the vice presidency to Bill Nelson, who would after having been picked step down under a cloud of suspicion, thereby opening up a Senate seat for Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who would then seduce Charles Schumer and then smother him in his bed, and then she would become Majority Leader, and Bernie Sanders would leave Washington and become a hermit, and then there would never be a political revolution, and Schultz would use that position to kill Social Security as Hillary Clinton cackled with glee, because IT’S ALL SO OBVIOUS
Also, this is kind of what I expect the next House of Cards season to be like.
Applejinx
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Look, it’s either something like that (the simplest possible form is ‘Hillary rescues Warren, Warren endorses Clinton’) or it’s face value.
And if it’s really ‘Democrats, at the height of the primary, fight to deregulate payday lenders and gut the work of Obama and Elizabeth Warren’, you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Yeesh!
Linnaeus
I’m still not sure what I’m going to do when my state’s caucuses roll around, but I haven’t forgotten who the real enemy is. It’s not Clinton or Sanders, that’s for sure.
goblue72
@Another Holocene Human: Oh I’m sorry, is criticizing premature calls for everyone to just call it quits this early and circle the wagons around Clinton some sort of misanthropy?
Get over yourself.
FlipYrWhig
@Applejinx:
You have one person, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, apparently writing a letter to other Democrats. You don’t have a coordinated effort among Democrats. You don’t have anybody fighting for anything.
ETA:
Does she have that support? It’s not in the story. She’s attempting to get it, and that’s all we know.
You, I mean you personally, really have to stop letting yourself be led by the nose like this.
Plus, and this is more for HuffPo, isn’t that a misuse of the word “gin”? Doesn’t “gin up” imply falsity, as in a ginned up controversy?
Heliopause
Yes, of course they are, just as Clinton did in a comparable position in ’08.
First off, it would be dumb for Sanders to quit now for a number of reasons, both from his own point of view and from the party’s point of view. From the party’s point of view the ideal scenario would be for Sanders to put up a long, hard fight and then “close ranks” and sing kum-ba-yah with Clinton. The party should want Bernie supporters to feel the process was fair and inclusive and that there’s a role for them going forward, not like they’re being tossed aside like one of Trump’s wives.
But the Dem party is run by imbeciles.
Technocrat
@Bob in Portland:
But that divide is existential to Democrats, in many ways it’s what defines us. I mean, really, the Democratic party is just a coalition – you vote for my candidate, and I’ll vote for yours. We’re not a family, or a church. Once you’re not voting for Democrats, the coalition starts to fall apart. At that point you’re effectively a third party.
Which is fine. Whatever floats your boat. But I do think it’s problematic to ask lifelong Democrats to suddenly, essentially, stop being Democrats. That’s my single actual beef with Sanders, is that I think he should have stayed an Independent, or gone Green Party.
FlipYrWhig
@Bob in Portland:
Good point. We should keep in mind that those Sanders supporters are, to use a technical term, bonkers.
Cacti
Denial still seems fairly strong in the Bernfeeling internet bastions. I think that a series of Sanders drubbings in Louisiana, Mississippi, Michigan, Illinois, Florida, Ohio, and North Carolina on 03/05, 03/08 and 03/15 will effectively end the race.
Chyron HR
@goblue72:
You went full Rubio, man. Never go full Rubio.
superpredators4hillary
Get a grip. Remember when Henny Penny used to worry about Christie? Ha! Trump made that guy a purse poodle. Hillary has this in the bag.
Origuy
KEEP
CALM
and
CARRY
OHIO
Daulnay
@Applejinx:
Well, yea. This is why the Hillary-backers really need to wake up. She’s saying all the right stuff, but her faction in the Democratic party walks a very different walk. Why should we expect Hillary to be any better than Debbie Wasserman Schultz?
Bob In Portland
@Technocrat: No, I’ve been a lifelong Democrat. The only time I ever voted for someone other than the Democratic presidential candidate was when Jimmy Carter conceded before I got off work. I am saying that with Hillary at the top of the ticket and Debbie Wasserman Schultz grifting her way to an ever-shrinking Democratic Party some of us are ready to move on, maybe to the Greens, maybe to something else. I’m not promising to lead a revolution here, but I think that Clinton supporters have not made a good case for Hillary, basically because she’s Republican-lite. Hippie punching doesn’t seem to work either.
Daulnay
@Technocrat:
What’s happening now is the dissolution of the R coalition, and fracturing of the D coalition. The corporate influence over politicians of both parties bothers a lot of people on both sides. People who want it fixed don’t have a home — Hil looks thoroughly corrupted, and aside from Drumpf and Carson, the Repub candidates are all bought and paid for.
Bob In Portland
@Cacti: Oh, so you think we should surrender after 15 states? Is that what Hillary supporters do?
geg6
@Daulnay:
You do realize that there are those of us who distrust Bernie just as much on guns as you do Hillary’s supposed untrustworthiness on banks and financial institutions? And that we consider supporting the NRA and gun manufacturers, and thus contributing to tens of thousands of deaths and injuries to be just as horrifying, if not more, than anything the banks do? And don’t get me started on the blindness to racial and gender matters.
Bob In Portland
@Cacti: No. After 3/15 the odds favor Sanders. If nothing else Clinton will limp into the convention. Also, hippie punching isn’t effective in convincing Sanders supporters to surrender. You must have a Trump-like ego that has to be constantly be satisfied by demeaning others. Sad, little man.
geg6
@Bob In Portland:
Oh, go suck Putin’s wad. What a total douche you are.
FlipYrWhig
@Daulnay:
Also, Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party really have a lot in common! They’re practically two sides of the same coin!
Chip Daniels
I think the best comparison for the Republicans is the 1968 Dems.
Their fight isn’t between faction arguing over the best way to the goal, it’s over each others very legitimacy.
The hatred I am hearing from the Trump people is equal to the bitterness between the hippies and union hard hats.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
you sound like the football coach, down 42-3 at the half, saying “we have them just where we want them”.
Gex
@TallPete: Hillary got 3.3 million votes yesterday, Bernie 2.0 million.
Bob In Portland
@geg6: And how do you think America’s gun problem is going to be solved by Clinton? How? If a decent gun control bill passed in Congress do you think that Sanders would veto it?
Guns are a big and complex problem. And there are an estimated 300 million of them out there.
Bob In Portland
@Gex: How many of those states will vote for a Democrat in November? Most of the south won’t. Also, millions more people voted Republican than Democrat yesterday (someone’s saying 2.5 million more). Does that mean Democrats should give up? Clinton has an advantage with conservative Dems like in the South and here at Balloon Juice, but as the primary season advances the potential Democratic votes will tilt more for Sanders. I’m not promising a Sanders victory but things will get more interesting.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: Do you think Hillary will carry the South this November?
Bob In Portland
@geg6: Is there something in the water here? So you can’t actually talk about the primary schedule, you have to resort to ad hominems? Sad.
FlipYrWhig
@Bob In Portland: South Carolina and Georgia were as close as Minnesota was.
Bob In Portland
@FlipYrWhig: How do you make your money? Dependent or working for a big corporation? Are you saying that you don’t care about corporate influence on elections? A lot of young people do.
But I guess you’re comfortable not to care.
Ella in New Mexico
So now, in America, the Democratic Party just cancels it’s Primary Season after a handful of SOUTHERN, HEAVILY CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE STATES votes on March 1?
We’ve got a whole lot more voting to do, folks. And yes, we’ll get behind whoever wins the Nomination, but for fuck’s sake more than half the Goddamned country hasn’t even voted yet.
superpredators4hillary
@geg6: Oh, Bro, No!
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
hilz won’t be the nominee. Bernie has her right where he wants her. after 3/15 it’s smooth sailing all the way to the convention.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ella in New Mexico: Who is calling for that?
Bob In Portland
@FlipYrWhig: South Carolina hasn’t voted for a Democrat since Nixon’s Southern Strategy, with the exception of Carter in 1976, who was a Georgian. Florida, North Carolina and Texas are slowly changing demographics but aren’t consistently in the Democratic column.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
LOL, nothing says “internet hack” like using “ad hominem” as a stand-alone noun.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: Not saying that. But it’s not over.
chopper
@Ella in New Mexico:
Who here is calling for that? Also, I didn’t know Massachusetts was a red state.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: What is your point? Don’t Democrats in those states deserve a voice in selecting the candidate?
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
No, I’m serious as a fucking heart attack here. It’s all gravy after 3/15 for the bern. Gravy train with biscuit wheels. Hillary voters will be committing suicide by the thousands outside the gates of Burlington.
geg6
@Bob In Portland:
You don’t get to decide that everyone who supports Hillary is somehow conservative. This is why Bernie is losing, The arrogant white male strikes again. Guess what, douche. Your priorities are not the only ones among liberals. But, as is always true of entitled and arrogant white males, you prefer to consider the contempt you engender a badge of righteousness. You are laughable.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Why are you assuming Southern Dems are conservative?
ETA: Is John Lewis a conservative?
petesh
@chopper: How delightfully ritualistic to travel to such an appropriate location for such an important purpose.
Kay
@Ella in New Mexico:
For some reason I don’t understand it’s incredibly important that Sanders’ supporters abandon all hope. If you don’t, I’m pretty sure Donald Trump wins, or that’s what I’m told :)
Ella in New Mexico
@chopper: @Omnes Omnibus:
Just responding to this.
And the incredible level of Hilary-Think floating around this site’s comment section.
petesh
@Kay: Don’t abandon hope, but do hedge your bets. Time to rely on message, and to cut back on the emotions. Be inviting. It’ll work out much better if you do lose, and might be your best chance of winning.
Gex
@Bob In Portland: Fine. Those are predictions, and they very well may turn out to be true. I’m not saying she will win. I am just saying that at this point it is ridiculous for someone to demand that we all rally behind someone who isn’t anywhere close to commanding the majority of the Democratic vote and call that “uniting.”
Apparently the revolution that hinges on turning out voters in such large quantities the Republican Congress will just have to do what Bernie wants also can write off the south and black voters. It’s an odd calculus, but Bernie’s folks keep saying that’s how the revolution is going to work.
Ella in New Mexico
@Kay: Seriously, you’re right. Why don’t we all just stay home this year? Clearly, in our adorable but sadly naive way, we’re just gettin’ in the way of the Master…Mistress…whatever :-D
superpredators4hillary
@geg6: Lucky for you. Laughter is the best medicine.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: No. My point is the southern states aren’t a true representation of the Democratic Party. Clinton certainly has the Democratic Party infrastructure on her side, but that means less the farther north and west you go. Hillary gets the delegates, but the come together call is premature.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Democrats in the south are representative of a significant portion of the Democratic coalition. The party is not monolithic. Hand waving away the votes of a largely AA group of voters is something one should avoid.
Bob In Portland
@geg6: More conservative. Less involved in the struggles of the working class. But it’s nice to know that you have ad hominems to bolster your argument. And someone who challenges positions with ad hominems is by definition reactionary. You don’t need to be a thug to get your point across. Quite the opposite. But if you challenge me that Clinton supporters are more liberal than Sanders supporters, I’d love to hear your argument. Petulance and name-calling indicate your argument is lost.
So how are Hillary supporters more liberal and less conservative than Bernie supporters? Give some examples.
Goblue72
@Chyron HR: I didn’t say that asshole.
chopper
@Ella in New Mexico:
wow, “Hillary-think”. Like Hilz herself it’s right out of the mind of Orwell.
cmorenc
@Bob in Portland:
So what will you do if your implicit prediction that post March 15, Sanders will close and surpass Clinton – is wrong and Clinton does win the democratic nomination by a substantial margin in delegates won in primaries or caucuses (aside from superdelegates) – will you be willing to go out and vote for Clinton in November as at least a much preferable alternative to President Trump?
Technocrat
@Bob In Portland:
Come on. They are as representative as any other states, unless you want to get into “Real Americans” territory. And no, I don’t mean racial, more like “No True Scotsman”.
chopper
@Technocrat:
hey look, it’s not like black voters in the south don’t count. let’s just say they count, i dunno, 3/5? of a regular vote. that sounds like a good compromise.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not hand-waving them away. They’re more conservative, vote more status quo than in the north, and their states almost never vote Democratic in presidential elections. Do you argue with that?
The other point, that a lot of Juicers here seem to never recognize, is that a more important demographic split in the Democratic Party for the future is between young and old. The vast majority of the younger half of the Democratic Party just aren’t satisfied with the status quo, and Clinton is seen as the status quo of the Democratic Party that has been ineffective in protecting and advancing their interests. Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s alliance with payday lenders is how the party is increasingly looking to the young. You know, Republican-lite. And young people don’t overlook Hillary’s wealth accumulated while entertaining the wealthy.
If you are concerned about the future of the Democratic Party you might ask yourself how Sanders is more popular with younger, poorer voters than Clinton. If they keep getting cut out, and by the nature of our current party that should be apparent to you, they will stay home in November and look elsewhere for answers.
And thank you for not telling me to suck Putin’s dick.
John D.
@Bob In Portland:
I figured you were a troll, but it turns out you’re just a moron.
3 of the last 4 Democratic Presidents were from the south. MLK was from the south. John Lewis is from the south. Fuck you and your fucking attitude. You are not the arbiter of who is and is not a pure enough Democrat.
And before you go into misuse of ad hominem again, I’m not attacking your argument by calling you a moron. The second paragraph destroys your thesis independent of the insult. The moron bit is just a bonus.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland:
What you and Putin do in your private lives is your own business.
LAC
Washington monthly quick read:
* Finally, Markos Moulitsas has written a sentence that every Democratic activist and/or politician should mount on their wall.
You do not build a liberal movement by bringing together white people, then hoping that people of color come along for the ride. You start with those communities of color.”
Interesting ….
Bob In Portland
@Technocrat: The southern Democrats are not as representative of the Democratic PARTY as other states, and the votes show that. Hillary also won the white votes in the South. Can you admit that southern Democrats are not as liberal or as representative of the Democratic Party as the north? If not, feel free to explain to me about the liberal south, but I think you are protesting a little too much.
Tripod
@John Cole:
I find it disconcerting they use the same TV studio format for sports and political coverage. Lots of loud, boo-ya nonsense. Somebody may as well hire Howie Long and Terry Bradshaw for all the insight one receives from the likes of Cokie Roberts and Wolf Blitzer. …well Phil, it’s clear Hillary just wanted it more….
Technocrat
@Bob In Portland:
Not as liberal? I certainly wouldn’t argue with that. The south is steeped in religion, tradition, all that stuff.
Not as representative was your call, and I’d be curious how you justify it. What is a “Representative Democrat”?
Bob In Portland
@John D.: As far as I know Martin Luther King never ran for office, but he was from the South.
The Democrats that have been elected President won by winning the north and west. Or do we have an argument with that? Your name-calling doesn’t advance your argument.
Yes, John Lewis is from the South. He never won the presidency. He never ran. Sorry that stating the obvious drives you into a rage. The north and west are where, post-Nixon, Democrats have won or lost their elections. Do you disagree with that?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Let’s see what happens.
Bob In Portland
@Gex: But the same Republican Congress is going to give Hillary gun control, raise the minimum wage, provide more healthcare for those who don’t have any, reduce the cost of health insurance and any other numbers of things that Democrats want?
No, the general feeling is that Hillary is much more comfortable with Republicans (like Debbie WS) and their agenda, and that her close proximity to big money will make her less aggressive for their causes. And they are right.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
the night is young. you’ll earn it soon enough.
Bob In Portland
@Technocrat: A little more liberal.
Xantar
Remember that time Mitt Romney won the Virginia primary and proceeded to handily win it in the general election?
John D.
@Bob In Portland: There are lots and lots and lots of elections that Democrats run in. John Lewis has won 15 of them, all as a Democrat. He’s considered a leader of the Democratic Party. Ranking member of the Subcommittee of Oversight. Member of the CBC and CPC. I call that pretty fucking representative. Obviously, though, none of that counts for you.
Yes, I disagree.
The East and California are the only reliable Dem strongholds in national elections. Oregon, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio — they all have been battleground states lately. And that’s worrisome. It tracks VERY closely with the weakening of organized labor, one of the historical pillars of the Democrats. It’s why the southern voters are *gaining* in importance for the Democrats, because of large populations of minorities, another historical pillar. Florida is a southern state of critical importance to national Dem victories lately as well.
But no, the North and West are all that count.
So, now that I’ve explained my position, why don’t you explain just what the fuck a “representative Democrat” is? I’m honestly curious how you will define the standard member of a big-tent party.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: Amazingly, chopper, there are lots of black voters in the north and west. And elsewhere I pointed out that Clinton won the white southern voters. In recent history there have not been enough Democratic voters, black or white, to win the south for the Democrats.
If you are trying to convince people here that I am somehow a racist for some reason because I said that the south is more conservative than the rest of the country then you go ahead. In forums such as this people don’t know other posters. I marched with the Black Panthers in 1968 in downtown Newark, NJ. After I was drafted into the army I was a race relations instructor. You shed any racist friends quickly by doing that. I spent most of my worklife as a shop steward or union officer, defending the rights of the membership of my union. Our membership was mostly minorities. I am confident of my bona fides. Please share yours.
Bob In Portland
@John D.: First, thanks for not insulting me this time. Second, John Lewis has been in Congress since 1987, I believe. Bill Clinton won Georgia in 1992. John Lewis hasn’t delivered Georgia to the Democrats since then. I don’t denigrate his work in civil rights. Georgia hasn’t voted Democrat for a pretty long time. John Lewis and his endorsement means nothing in the electoral college.
It’s sort of like winning the Republican nomination for anything in San Francisco. Winning the south gives you delegates. But it is no reflection on what happens in November.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: Let me ask you. You’re a homophobe, right?
Aleta
Even if Trump loses, nomination or election, the damage is huge, hard to bear in mind. His loss will power even stronger opposition to a Democratic president and encourage more open resistance to the federal government. His opponents in the tea party will manage to turn the energy to great advantage. I hope I’m over-pessimistic. I keep reminding myself to stop predicting things, since in a personal way it limits what is actually happening in this moment.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
yes, but they don’t get the honor of having 3/5 of a vote. that’s a big fuckin deal.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
no, I’m a homophone.
Bob In Portland
@cmorenc: I don’t know if he’ll close. I’m saying it’s not over on March 2 and after March 15 things get better for Sanders.
What will I do if Clinton wins the nomination? I’ll vote for Jill Stein. The only time I didn’t vote Democratic in presidential elections was in 1980, and that was only because Carter conceded before I got home from work, so I voted for some radical third-party candidate, so it’s not like I haven’t been loyal to the Democratic Party. I really cannot in good conscience vote for Clinton. Considering that her dislike/untrustworthiness rating is second only Trump’s, I’m not the only American who feels that way. Some people are still looking for the killer of Vince Foster or some other Republican conspiracy theory from the nineties. That isn’t it, and please don’t try to twist this into misogyny.
If Hillary supporters here think that it’s somehow treasonous not to vote for the Democratic nominee, I would remind them that no one owes their vote to anyone. The Democratic Party as a whole is obligated to represent its constituents. When it doesn’t it cannot expect blind allegiance.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: Whatever, your homophobia is not amusing me. And, like I’ve asked before, please share your moral high ground in race relations.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
it’s not that it makes you a traitor. it makes you a clown. which, let’s face it, we already knew.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
and I’m sick of your homophonia. we’re just words that sound like other words. we deserve equal treatment.
John D.
@Bob In Portland: You aren’t answering my question. What is a “representative Democrat”?
I never claimed anything about delivering elections. I claimed that John Lewis is A) a Democrat, B) a Democrat that is considered a leader of the Democratic Party *by* other Democrats, and C) from the South. I further claim that he is representative of one of the major pillars of the Democratic Party’s voting base , African-Americans. I conclude, therefore, that this long-time successful Democrat is representative of the Democratic Party, and that he and those like him (to wit, southern Democrats) are just as important as any other Democrat.
What I want YOU to do is tell me what the hell a “representative Democrat” is.
I’ll add one stipulation: It has to manage to encompass your fabled north and west voter *and* include those Democrats that keep getting elected and serving in national office and producing governance that affects all of us — like John Lewis.
Cacti
@Bob In Portland:
We?
You and Putin?
Bob In Portland
@John D.:
No disagreement, although Washington and Oregon have also been as consistently Democratic as California. Actually, both haven’t gone Republican since Reagan’s reelection, one election cycle earlier than California became consistently Democratic. The demographics on the west tilt more and more liberal and Republican areas are shrinking.
I’d need to see my quote again, but what I meant, and I’d think it should be obvious by now, is that the south is more conservative and organized more in alignment with party leadership, which of course tends to be status quo. And there aren’t enough reliable Democratic voters in the south to win lots of electoral votes. We can agree on that, right?
You could make an argument that because of her years in Arkansas that Clinton has an advantage across the south, but beyond Arkansas I doubt it.
Sanders attracts the younger voters, working class voters. In all surveys I’ve seen he laps Hillary with independent voters. Hillary does better with people making over 100,000 a year, and people over 65, although none of the people over 65 that I know here in Portland support her. And I’m over 65.
Not Sanders personally, but his social democracy is the future of the Democratic Party. If the party doesn’t embrace it, they’ll go elsewhere.
Bob In Portland
@Cacti: Oh, you’re such a wit. So clever.
John Kerry, on Face The Nation the Sunday after MH17 was shot down, said that the US had absolute proof of exactly where the missile that hit the airliner came from. There have been numerous investigations but this absolute proof hasn’t seen the light of day. You’d think that the US would want to bring the guilty party to justice.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland:
I don’t disagree with that. I also welcome that move. But it’s not yet that time. This election, I want to protect the good that has happened under Obama and move it forward.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: And you finally brought Russia into it….
mclaren
This is certainly my general sense of the state of things. The Democratic party is more unified than I’ve seen it in my voting lifetime. The last time I can recall a party this unified is back in 1960, when JFK faced Nixon.
The other bit of good news is that the far-right astroturfers in other threads who have been attempting to explain why this election is already lost for Democrats, why voting for Bernie is pointless, why we’re all doomed doomed doomed even if we win the election since Republicans in congress will prevent a Democratic president from accomplishing anything…these astroturfers just aren’t making any headway.
Me, I’m enthused and fired up about this election. I’m voting for the Democratic nominee, whomever that is. And in the meantime, we have an opportunity to push the entire party to the left.
Good times.
mclaren
@Bob In Portland:
“Chopper” is a paid right-wing astroturfer. His homophobia and racism are part and parcel of his talking points, so you’re not going to get anywhere arguing with him. Better to discuss serious issues with someone who’s not a sock puppet for the Koch brothers.
mclaren
@Chip Daniels:
This is my takeaway too. The Republican party is distintegrating as badly as the Democratic party did in 1968. That’s why Democrats should vote for Bernie Sanders. This election is going to be a huge win for the Democrats no matter who we nominate, so why not pick someone with genuine progressive beliefs?
No One You Know
@Another Holocene Human: So that’s what it is! I was assuming it was another case of blind American justice, and there wasn’t nothing we could do about it, and the poster wasn’t gonna look at the polls with the circles and arrows and the Twitter links on the back, explaining what each one was, explaining just how it was possible to let Trump, like Palin and Quayle before him, get anywhere near the White House.
No One You Know
@Heliopause: My spouse pointed out that Bernie has been a Democrat for weeks. Which supports your point.
chopper
@mclaren:
no please, keep arguing. i need a new pool house.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus:
Gee, didn’t your computer take you to the link at the top of my post?
So let me get the ground rules straight. I can’t talk about Russia, but everyone else can make sneering Russian comments about me? That’s the kind of free speech you honor, Omnes Omnibus? If you don’t want people to bring up topics you’d rather forget about, kindly take your friends aside and explain to them that you are bothered by them replying to snark about Russia.
Otherwise, keep making snarky remarks about Russia. I’ll gladly entertain your absurdities.
Bob In Portland
@John D.: I believe I said, “Southern Democrats”. That is, if you average up every Southern Democrat, white, black, Hispanic, male or female, gay or straight, they are more conservative than Democrats who live in the north and west of our country.
Are all southern Democrats right-wing? No.
It’s very admirable, your defense of John Lewis. It’s irrelevant. After 1992 Georgia has never gone Democratic in a presidential election. That is, after Clinton won his first term, the Democratic Party has never delivered Georgia. John Lewis delivered votes for Hillary in the primaries. He won’t deliver Georgia in November. Meanwhile, the west coast in that period has always gone Democratic. The leadership of both political parties embrace the status quo. That’s why we’ve got this schedule where more conservative state are overloaded on Super Tuesday exists. I don’t think it takes more than a simpleton to realize this, so you are obviously just spoiling for a fight.
My advice: Pick a fight about something real.
Bob In Portland
@John D.: One thing, though. When John Lewis said he never saw Sanders at a demonstration but he saw the Clintons, what did he mean? He didn’t see Bill. Bill was in Oxford. He didn’t see Hillary. Hillary was head of the Young Republicans at Wellesley, or interning and writing speeches to justify the bombing of North Vietnam for then Congressman Melvin Laird.
Was John Lewis talking metaphorically? Was he lying? Because in the sixties Bill was looking to start his career path in politics while avoiding Vietnam and Hillary was at the beginning of her military career. And we also know that Sanders, at the time a college kid, WAS at civil rights demonstrations.
If he was endorsing Hillary, why was he speaking untruthfully? Who and what does that untruth serve? Is that the kind of politics you embrace? How did Lewis’ endorsement get interpreted among his constituency who mostly didn’t know who Sanders is?
This, to me, puts the matter to rest. Lewis did not endorse Hillary for what she did in the sixties. Why did he lie? And how should a Sanders supporter take John Lewis lying about Sanders? Really simple, John.