Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Innocent people don’t delay justice.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

“woke” is the new caravan.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

We still have time to mess this up!

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

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Reader Interactions

247Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    I am the only candidate in the race who will take the corroded pipes in Flint and stick them up Rick Snyder’s ass.

    ::drops mic; walks off::

  7. 7.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: That would more likely be Democrates… Fixed. This is what happens when you get in from the gym and realize there’s no debate thread in the pipeline as the debate is starting.

  10. 10.

    PaulWartenberg2016

    As my campaign promise to you, I will make every Conservative who claims government can be run like a business drink straight from the Flint River, and ask them afterward if any business would take the time and effort to clean our waters and keep it drinkable, or would they cut costs to keep profits at the expense of public health.

  12. 12.

    Davis X. Machina

    I want someone to ask Bernie which English football team’s nickname is ‘the Hammers’….

  13. 13.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I’m watching, partly to see the candidates and hear what they have to say and partly because I have friends in the audience and hope to get a glimpse of them.

  14. 14.

    Applejinx

    Here’s hoping they egg each other on to promise more and more justice for the victims of Flint.

    I don’t see a downside to the candidates competing to be least like the assholes responsible for the water of Flint. The more of a bright line they draw between themselves and that behavior, the better. It’s the epitome of ‘run government like a business, ???, profit!’. Disgraceful.

  15. 15.

    JPL

    I’m having trouble streaming the debate, but the NYTimes always provides a transcript the next day.

  16. 16.

    Miss Bianca

    Wait, there’s another debate? Is this the one in Flint? I’ve lost track. I may just drink my cider and hearken to all y’all’s comments on it.

    ETA: Or maybe I’ll sneak upstairs and watch it while the Brussels sprouts are cooking…

  17. 17.

    Elizabelle

    “I know why the caged dog scoots.” — Lisa Simpson

    You gonna make me switch to another debate?

  21. 21.

    Aleta

    Does the US still make pipes used for water supply, or do we import them all now? If they commit to replacing all the pipes, will they also commit to better testing of imported goods for lead, etc? When they tear out the lead pipes, won’t they have to also contain the lead so it doesn’t go into the soil and air? I think the scale of this project sure would create jobs in a lot of places.

  23. 23.

    Technocrat

    @redshirt:

    Uhhh, no. It’s a PBS life-altering experience. My wife and I specifically went shopping for Downton Abbey snacks.

    Philistines.

  24. 24.

    SiubhanDuinne

    So far they’re both fine, and I haven’t heard a single thing to differentiate them.

  27. 27.

    Miss Bianca

    Oh, now Bernie Sanders is blaming HRC for NAFTA? Bernie’s getting the huge applause lines on this one.

  31. 31.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    Hillary says Bernie voted against releasing the money for the auto bailout. Bernie was making faces. Now he’s saying she’s talking about the Wall Street bailout for billionaires…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  32. 32.

    MomSense

    I just got a series of text messages from Clinton campaign about the Flint water crisis and the community. Pretty cool.

    I caucused absentee because I had to work today but I heard it was a zoo. Out of 7 of us, 6 went for Clinton and 1 went for Sanders. The only Sanders voter was my almost 80 feminist mom. Go figure. My millennials were disappointed with her.

  33. 33.

    starscream

    Bernie is officially an assclown and I can’t wait for him to lose. Talking over Hillary constantly in an obnoxious way.

  34. 34.

    dmsilev

    @Betty Cracker: Fortunately, I doubt either of them will be boasting about the size of their genitalia.

    That aside, yes it’s getting a bit pointed.

  36. 36.

    Miss Bianca

    You know what? Sen. Sanders sounds like an asshole. He is a one-trick pony. “I’m against Wall Street! F*ck everything else!”

  37. 37.

    dmsilev

    And if Sanders can’t come up with a better retort than “but, Wall Street”, he’s going to get hammered in Michigan on Tuesday.

  39. 39.

    scav

    Funny how the wife of a president has more to do with policies enacted than a member of Congress.

  41. 41.

    Ohio Mom

    Came in late and wow, the gloves are off. Bernie going off on Hillary’s Wall Street speeches.

    Also Hillary is hoarse.

  42. 42.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    Bernie has a hammer and goddamn it everything is a nail he’s going to hit it with.

  43. 43.

    dmsilev

    @Bob In Portland:

    Hillary keeps saying, “One of my best friends is black Barack Obama.”

    If you don’t understand the difference, well that’s not really very surprising.

  45. 45.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @dmsilev: He seems to be desperate to get a zinger in to counter that devastating hit on his vote. I don’t think it’s working.

    I don’t think the people of Flint care about Goldman-Sachs…

    Hillary found a chink in his armor tonight.

    It’s good that Anderson is smart enough to stay out of the way while they go at each other.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  46. 46.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Betty Cracker: Yes it did. Never good optics when you look like you’re a man shooshing a woman, let alone a former peer from the Senate who’s final governmental service at the Secretary level is senior in rank to being a senator.

  51. 51.

    gene108

    You know what? Sen. Sanders sounds like an asshole.

    He also does not know what happened after Lehman Brothers collapsed.

    Wall Street did not come begging for a bailout.

    Paulson, Bernanke, Geithner, et. al. forced the biggest banks to take a bailout, because otherwise the struggling / failing banks would have a bulls-eye on them a being struggling because they took the bailout, which would have sparked a run on those banks.

    In other words, the government told them to take the bailout money because, if the banks sat in their little fiefdoms there’d have been a worse financial meltdown, as people panicked about the solvency of banks.

  52. 52.

    Germy

    I just saw this headline: Iranian Billionaire Sentenced to Death for Embezzlement

    And I was reminded of the 60 Minutes segment we just watched on the American mine owner who was sentenced to One Year in prison after his lawbreaking lead to the death of many of his employees.

  54. 54.

    Technocrat

    Oh shit. Hillz goes off on the 90’s boom. Not a bad comeback.

    ETA: Cooper really is the best moderator.

  56. 56.

    Elie

    Bernie’s hand waving really turns me off. Tired of being scolded… I don’t want to look at that

  57. 57.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: and @dmsilev:
    I believe that’s his constant refrain because he believes it. His policy positions and strategy seem consistent with a basically Marxist philosophy. Helping billionaires is evil, and Wall Street is the rotting center of the American cancer that is rich people. His answer to how to do things is ‘Revolution’, because if you think it’s all a class struggle, then the only solution is to tell the lower classes to rise up – whether in actual revolution or a voting wave, whatever. The working man must be waiting to have a general who faces the real problem, rich people.

  58. 58.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    Here in MI we keep getting calls from the Kasich campaign. So we give them different answers every time. Waste their money and time, and give them nothing to show for it.
    If their polling was run with any brains they’d know this ZIP code votes 86% Dem and it’s pouintless to call here.

  59. 59.

    Chyron HR

    @Bob In Portland:

    Meanwhile here on planet Earth, Bernie literally keeps saying “I marched with MLK” whenever questioned about race issues, but I guess that’s different.

  60. 60.

    Miss Bianca

    @Adam L Silverman:

    THANK YOU, YES. The optics/audio on that whole “hush up there, woman” thing has got me totally stabby.

    Damn it – my feed has just gone out. Ah, Internet in the Rockies…

  61. 61.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    Bernie is tying his own noose tonight. The debate is happening in Flint, Michigan not at the NYSE. He is reinforcing the view that he only cares about beating up on the Millionaires and Billionaires™ and doesn’t have anything to say about real issues that affect real people.

    She’s killing him tonight.

    Dunno if it matters, though, in the primaries. But it makes me feel much, much better about our chances in the fall. She’s hit her stride.

    Just my $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  62. 62.

    Betty Cracker

    Gotta say, this is better than “He has a small dick!” “No — my dick is yooooodge!”

  63. 63.

    gene108

    @Technocrat:

    Oh shit. Hillz goes off on the 90’s boom. Not a bad comeback.

    I don’t get what Sanders and his supporters have against the 1990’s.

    Bill Clinton was the 42nd President of the USA. Barack Obama is not the 43rd President.

    The reason the 90’s don’t look so awesome is because the 43rd President (again not Obama) was arguably the worst in U.S. history.

    A moderately competent successor could’ve taken the good things from the 1990’s and made things better or not let the problems turn into disasters.

  64. 64.

    MomSense

    Oh FFS. Republicans are obsessed with penis size and Sanders is obsessed with business size.

  66. 66.

    Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class

    Charlton Heston marched with MLK, too, for what that’s worth.

  68. 68.

    Elie

    Can you imagine Bernie talking to Putin with all that hand waving? Its not Presidential and is meant to dominate anyone else speaking.

  69. 69.

    starscream

    No Josh Marshall liveblog? He generally has a good feel for how voters will react. I think Bernie is getting demolished but I don’t think I can be objective anymore.

  70. 70.

    gene108

    Also note to Sanders: fuck Europe.

    I know very few Americans, who are willing to fawn over other countries as being better than us (even if it is true).

    I know liberals are Jonesin’ to be Denmark but bigger and more awesome, but most Americans aren’t envious of other countries.

    And telling them America isn’t good enough compared to Euro-weenies is no way to win friends here.

  72. 72.

    Mike J

    @gene108:

    And telling them America isn’t good enough compared to Euro-weenies is no way to win friends here.

    It wouldn’t get you votes in England, and they’re 37 points to the left of us, and technically part of Europe.

  73. 73.

    SiubhanDuinne

    It is all so refreshing, though, after what we’ve seen from the Republicans. Night and day.

  74. 74.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Miss Bianca: you”re welcome, i’m running about ten minutes behind on the feed – had to hit pause to finish fixing dinner.

    The optics look terrible. And someone on his prep team needs to tell him that 1) the yelling is a turnoff or 2) have his hearing aid adjusted, if he has one, because he’s yelling all the time.

  75. 75.

    Doug R

    Good point about Boeing and Airbus. Airbus is basically a consortium between the major European countries that relies heavily on subsidies.

  76. 76.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @gene108:

    Denmark is 90% ethnic Danish – like Vermont is 98% white. He couldn’t even get Vermont to adopt his policies. We have more states in the US than Europe has countries, each with their own executive authority, so stop with the fucking European country comparison. Bernie’s a tone deaf fraud.

  77. 77.

    Aleta

    B’s not answering the father’s question very much is he?

    Ask them what they think about limiting ammunition sales outside of gun ranges.

  79. 79.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Adam L Silverman: Left the question downstairs as this should not be bogged down by the trivia of tenets.

    @Miss Bianca: He’s really blowing it with the shouty thing that sounds condescending.

  80. 80.

    Xantar

    Jimmy Carter has announced he needs no further treatments.

    He outlasted The Reagans. And he literally beat brain cancer on the way.

  87. 87.

    gene108

    Hillary really gives a damn about gun control and it shows in her answers. Seems to be coming from her heart.

  88. 88.

    Kay

    @Miss Bianca:

    Oh, now Bernie Sanders is blaming HRC for NAFTA?

    It isn’t just her. Democrats over-promise on trade deals. Everyone who promotes trade deals over-promises on jobs and labor and environmental protections.

    If they want to promote the deals they have to stop telling people it’s about “jobs” because there are winners and losers in trade deals and they should be honest with people about that. As far as I’m concerned free traders destroyed their own credibility. It’s really hard to take, because the same free traders constantly lecture people who question these deals on how they, the free traders, are the realists. They’re not “realists”. They pretend they know how these incredibly complex deals with many countries and all kinds of actors and markets will play out, and they don’t know. They should admit that. They don’t know if the deal will create 600,000 jobs or 1.2 million jobs or zero jobs, yet they make the same claims every time they bring one up.

  90. 90.

    Mike J

    @Technocrat: People here are not immune to the angry=good argument. If you complain about lack of facts to go with the anger, you’re the tone police.

  93. 93.

    Tripod

    Bernie won Maine, delegate split 15/9 with one TBD. Another win where the margins aren’t enough.

  94. 94.

    gene108

    Bernie can’t handle justifying his voting record on the 1990’s crime bill.

    That’s weak for a candidate.

  95. 95.

    Technocrat

    @Mike J:

    That’s true enough. Perhaps I’ve just gotten used to Obama’s relative coolness.

    @Baud:

    Agreed. Please don’t let him moderate your debates.

  97. 97.

    dmsilev

    @Tripod: The next week or so could be definitive. If the current polls are anywhere near accurate (which could be a dangerous assumption), Sanders is going to slip further behind where he needs to be. By a lot.

  99. 99.

    gex

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Exactly. Including being unwilling to start their own party but wanting the benefits of running as a major party candidate. And then treating that major party with as much or more contempt as the opposing major party.

  100. 100.

    Aleta

    @Tripod: My cousin said the parking lots at the caucus sites near him (high schools, etc and not a wealthy area) were jam packed. It’s such a good feeling to know there was a big Dem turnout, if true. Also, LePaige’s endorsing Trump didn’t give him a win, and that alone is gratifying.

  103. 103.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    Obama HAD to be cool. Old white guy, not so much.

    I asked my best friend, an African American lifelong Detroiter about this: is Obama just level headed or does race have something to do with it? He says the consequences for raising your voice to white people are much more severe for him than for me. And when he put it that way I could see it because we used to work together and go to the same stupid meetings. I could get away with losing my shit from time to time (and still do) but he’d have been branded a hothead. Or worse.

  106. 106.

    Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class

    Funny – a genuinely funny web commenter came up with a great one:

    Andre Maginot: “We’re gonna build an impenetrable wall, and Germany is going to pay for it”

    Adolf Hitler: “LOL”

  108. 108.

    randy khan

    @Xantar:

    Jimmy Carter has announced he needs no further treatments.

    He outlasted The Reagans. And he literally beat brain cancer on the way.

    It’s almost enough to make an atheist reconsider.

  109. 109.

    Aleta

    The question ab. personal blind spots wasn’t about their personal stories. Neither seems to have a direct answer about their personal blind spot, beyond acknowledging that ‘white people don’t know what it’s like.’

  111. 111.

    Miss Bianca

    @Kay:

    They pretend they know how these incredibly complex deals with many countries and all kinds of actors and markets will play out, and they don’t know. They should admit that. They don’t know if the deal will create 600,000 jobs or 1.2 million jobs or zero jobs, yet they make the same claims every time they bring one up.

    Agreed. Not a fan of free-trade agreements myself in general. But unless I’m greatly mistaken, HRC wasn’t in charge in 1993. That was my point.

  112. 112.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @Bill E Pilgrim: Comment footnote:

    “Veep” reference. The VP (Julia Louis-Dreyfus) visits a pub in London and the gag is that she can’t understand a word the locals say, e.g. she asks the landlord “Been here long? and he says “Yes M’am, West Ham fan, born and bred”, to which she says “Uhm, what kind of ham?”. And so on.

    Then he invites her to pull a pint and drink it, egging her on by saying “Down in one!”, which she mishears as “Danny wa!”, and, thinking it’s a local toast or something, starts repeating which gets picked up and becomes a big joke in the British press.

    Had to be there maybe. Very funny show, for me, great writing.

    Also the most recent time, before this thread, that I heard West Ham United mentioned.

  113. 113.

    dmsilev

    @Aleta: I’m kind of disappointed that neither answered “If I knew what it was, it wouldn’t be a blind spot”.

  114. 114.

    Prescott Cactus

    @gex:

    Likewise, Hillary can’t be disheveled and angry either.

    And if you are an old white guy you move to Arizona, shake your fist in the air and scream “Get off my lawn”. (which is likely a desert landscape – ie: rocks)

  116. 116.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Aleta: With respect, I think it was a poorly framed question, myself. A blind-spot, by definition, can’t be seen. I thought they both gave decent answers.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  118. 118.

    different-church-lady

    @PaulWartenberg2016:

    No one watches because neither candidate up there is going to waste time on a dick-measuring contest.

    But if they did, my money’s on Hillary.

  119. 119.

    gene108

    @Aleta:

    How do you know what your blind-spots are? Aren’t blind-spots, by definition, places you cannot see, either physically or philosophically.

  122. 122.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ultraviolet Thunder: There is definitely a cultural issue here. Notice that the few times when the President has shown real emotion, such as when his friend Professor Gates was wrongfully stopped and arrested or in regards to the initial news reports of Trayvon Martin, how its been reported in straight news, let alone dealt with in ideologically partisan commentary or simply the blogosphere and comments sections and twitter.

    When I was doing my MA in religion, the other graduate assistant was a much older than me (I was 26, he was at least 45 at the time) African American minister that had gone back to do an advanced degree in religion and then, possibly, a doctorate in theology, which I think he did pursue. Long story short – no matter what we were doing he was always in a suit and tie. I once asked the professor I was assigned to as an assistant, who was his major advisor, about it and her response was: there are two reasons here. The first is that as a minister he has to set an example for his congregants at all times, hence the always being in at least business casual if not jacket and tie. She said the second issue was simple survival. If he dressed between business formal and business casual at all times, as well as being formally polite at all times, then he would be perceived as being less threatening by white Americans. Both of these explanations have always stayed with me and I think are very telling in regard to the President and how he presents himself.

  126. 126.

    Prescott Cactus

    @Corner Stone:

    I can barely even watch this.

    I’m not. I’m just enjoying the BJ play by play.

    Great joke Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class.

  130. 130.

    different-church-lady

    @gene108:

    I don’t get what Sanders and his supporters have against the 1990’s.

    Bill Clinton was the 42nd President of the USA.

    You answered your own question.

  133. 133.

    Bob In Portland

    @dmsilev: Oh, I understand the difference. I’ve lost count how many times President Obama has been invoked.

  136. 136.

    Baud

    @bmoak:

    And Hillary will be as well. But I think she can get away with it more than others because of her history.

  138. 138.

    Adam L Silverman

    @O. Felix Culpa: I was just young and since I’d spent the previous three and half years in Scotland, a bit naive on this. Wasn’t something one really thinks about in high school or even in college.

    It was a useful lesson in regards to African American officers, NCOs, and Warrant Officers in the US Army that I’ve dealt with. Or when I’ve had to explain to leadership that there are African American colonels and sergeant’s major and chief warrant officers on your staff that when they’re in town and walking down the street, if they are in jeans and a sweatshirt or a t shirt or even a polo shirt, folks will cross the street rather than walk past them/next to them. This was in the larger context that my Italian American CG, Lebanese American (Christian) Deputy, and myself all got to be white/treated as white in the 21st century, but that wasn’t always the case. So we can’t forget what our colleagues and peers and Soldiers of color are still going through. Fortunately, I had good leadership and they got it.

  139. 139.

    Baud

    I think Hillary answered the education question better. She’s talking more about specific proposals.

  141. 141.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Yesterday I ran into a boss from 20 years ago when I worked in Detroit. African American man from Kentucky. Saturday afternoon in a Walgreens, retired long ago and he was in a black cashmere overcoat, polished dress shoes, turtleneck and dress slacks. Just shopping for a birthday card.
    I looked like a slob as usual of course.
    When I worked for him he took a lot of days off because he was suing the company for racial discrimination for not promoting him. I heard that secondhand. I also later heard he won. But he never breathed a word around the office. Straight up professional every moment, and had to be.
    Maybe part of tha twas his generation and being from the South (he’s 72). Or maybe it was what it took to succeed at a big corporation.

  142. 142.

    Kay

    @Miss Bianca:

    HRC wasn’t in charge in 1993. That was my point.

    Right, but she supported the deal. It wasn’t even “Bill Clinton’s deal”. It was George HW Bush’s deal. Clinton pushed it thru Congress.

    This fight has been going on for years. Obama battled Clinton on this exact same thing in the ’08 Ohio primary. I got direct mail at my house with Obama slamming Clinton on NAFTA. It was the biggest issue in the race. Clinton won the OH primary anyway :)

  143. 143.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    C’mon Bernie, Vermont is one of the most heavily taxed states in the country. Why aren’t all of Vermont’s schools near the top when it comes to outcomes for students?

    I’m still hoping Don Lemon asks a question about aliens! You can do it. Just. Ask. The. Question.

  144. 144.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Baud: “Will” be, good sir? Has already happened. Future tense preempted by past and current events, although likely to be continuous, especially in the GE.

    ETA: And agreed that she is well-positioned and -equipped to handle it.

  145. 145.

    gene108

    Police unions protect bad cops, who murder 12 year old boys in Cleveland Parks or choke a guy to death, because he sold cigarettes one-at-a-time on the street.

    Should we bitch about cop unions, like we do about teacher’s unions? Should politicians shun cop union endorsements?

  146. 146.

    Miss Bianca

    @Kay:

    The year ’08? Can’t we find some new, shiny issues to slam HRC on? Wasn’t there something something about some emails, or some incident at an embassy in Benghazi, or…something….?

  147. 147.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ultraviolet Thunder: Its amazing the things that one can be oblivious too because one can afford to be oblivious to them. That doesn’t always make people bad, it just makes them human.

  148. 148.

    Chyron HR

    @Bob In Portland:

    Bernie’s the one who was smart enough to hire Al Gore’s campaign manager, so Hillary isn’t receiving great advice like “Run against your party’s massively popular sitting president.”

  150. 150.

    Baud

    How can Bernie have 5 million contributers who have given $27 on average? That $135,000,000.

    Did I mishear that?

  152. 152.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Adam L Silverman: True. The question then becomes, does one choose awareness when afforded the opportunity or does one opt for willful blindness and deafness, because more convenient.

  153. 153.

    Aleta

    I’d love it if moderators would ask each one if they would encourage their supporters to vote for the other, if the other is nominated.

  155. 155.

    Kay

    @Miss Bianca:

    Well, they argued about it because they know it matters. The problem isn’t so much “trade deals”. Everyone knows there will be trade and the world won’t stay the same and there need to be trade agreements. The problem is Democratic presidential candidates assure people who care about it that they will fight for “fair trade” and then they do the opposite. Twice now- Clinton with NAFTA and then Obama with TPP. People feel (rightfully, IMO) that they were lied to. They know which sectors and areas of the country will be harmed with these deals. Yet every time they insist it’s all win/win for “American workers”. No, it’s not.

  157. 157.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @Aleta:

    I’d love it if moderators would ask each one if they would encourage their supporters to vote for the other, if the other is nominated.

    Bernie should definitely have to answer that. He just joined the party after decades of sniping at both sides from the outside. What do he and his supporters owe the Democrats?

  158. 158.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    I got into it this evening with a Bernie supporter Facebook friend after she said:

    IMO that’s exactly the problem – no coherent base. You just exemplified it by saying “the Dems need the blacks,” which is, well, kinda racist…. The way I see it, there are 3 main factions in the party right now. (1) CorpDem/Hollywood/GOP Lite – the Clintons, DWS, etc. (2) largely urban African Americans. (3) Liberal whites. And those 3 factions do not, at this time, have similar interests. (1) is all about money, privilege, the status quo. (2) is rightfully worried about urban issues, structural racism, for-profit incarceration, lousy schools, federal benefits. (3) worries about wealth inequality, jobs leaving the country, student debt, their kids not having the same chances they had, saving social security, maybe even universal health care. (1) is ready to pander to (2) to buy votes, but in the end won’t really do anything, and will sell out (3) in a minute to feather their own nests. To win, the party has traditionally needed (2) and (3), but at this rate, (1) is rapidly losing (3). No coherent socio economic base.

    She really doesn’t see the problem with arguing that African Americans are just being duped into supporting Clinton.

  160. 160.

    Matt McIrvin

    @gene108: The thing about Denmark is, they’ve got a great social democracy going but they freak out about immigrants to a near-Trumpian degree.

  161. 161.

    Kay

    I hope Donald Trump hits Clinton on the emails “every day”. I’ve been bored with the emails since about two hours after they started hyping it.

    Bring that on, Donald.

  163. 163.

    Kay

    @Matt McIrvin:

    My son travels to Denmark quite a bit and he says the same thing. He was shocked by how people felt free to tell him all about it, too, as if they assumed he agreed. It’s why he’s doubtful that US anti-immigrant feelings are caused by economic anxiety.

  166. 166.

    Corner Stone

    Every time he mentions that rent controlled apartment I cringe. Who in their right mind would ever give that up?

  167. 167.

    Kay

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m skeptical of the whole “classified” thing, myself. WTF is “classified retroactively”? After it’s passed around they classify it? Don’t tell me, I don’t even wanna know. I don’t care about her server or her emails.

  169. 169.

    Aleta

    It would be great if in the closing statements both lost their voices completely and Baud walked back on to thunderous applause.

  171. 171.

    Miss Bianca

    @Kay:

    Well, I guess I should refrain from snark on this issue, since my feeble efforts are falling on their faces…and say that yes, I’d like to see Democratic presidents and presidential candidates take the idea of “fair trade” more seriously. It’s not hard to see that Trump has struck a chord with his protectionist rhetoric.

  175. 175.

    PsiFighter37

    Goddamn DWS, why do you decide to put these debates on Sunday night? What an awful choice of time. I’m at home and I didn’t even bother turning it on.

    From reading the NYT commentary, it doesn’t seem like really much of anything changed, except for Bernie getting a little snippy. What I don’t understand is why Hillary & team never hit Bernie on the fact that he has done jack shit for the Democratic Party for the past 30 years. He calls for ‘revolution’ but has failed to stir much more than a pool fart over his time in Congress.

  176. 176.

    Prescott Cactus

    @Corner Stone:

    One minute ?

    Granted I just tuned in when the God questions stated, but one minute to give a final statement?

    Sorry you had to watch for me.

  177. 177.

    Kay

    @Corner Stone:

    I heard an attorney who defends people on these “classify breach” issues and he said the fact that Clinton’s aide was given immunity is meaningless. He said it would be “malpractice” for the guy’s lawyer not to get immunity up front. That it means absolutely nothing as far as the aides guilt or the intensity of the investigation. I don’t know but that rang true to me as far as legalworld in general.

  180. 180.

    redshirt

    @Miss Bianca: What’s fair trade with China, though? With India?

    I guess I’m too pragmatic in that I don’t see how America can hold onto a vast number of manufacturing jobs in a world of free trade. The trade deals benefit America in other ways, but not in manufacturing.

  181. 181.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @PsiFighter37: I don’t think making an issue of Sanders’ lack of support for other Democrats is really a winning issue for her to raise. Americans love to think that they’re all independent and wish that their politics could be entirely free of actual politics, so they don’t see the problem with him not helping the party.

  182. 182.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @PsiFighter37: Dick Nixon on Twitter has made the point (talking about Rubio) that (roughly) “you don’t talk about the park until you need to talk about the park”.

    IOW, there are downsides to going hard after Bernie for not supporting the party when lots of people are upset with the party. She’s leading and doing well without feeding an internal civil war. She wants to be able to call on his supporters in the summer and fall and thereafter.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  183. 183.

    Kay

    @Miss Bianca:

    It’s not hard to see that Trump has struck a chord with his protectionist rhetoric.

    Sherrod Brown “wrote the book” on fair trade. True! He wrote a book about it, and well before Donald Trump gave it a thought. Anyway, Sherrod Brown will be Clinton’s point man on trade in the midwest. He announced it on MSNBC. We’ll have a much better, substantive debate on trade on the Dem side than any random bullshit Trump can spout. Brown said he “trusts” Clinton on trade. He endorsed her.

  184. 184.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: When there’s a FOIA request they do a review for classification. In some cases things that had been classified are deemed to now be unclassified, so they step the classification down and are then able to release them. In other cases things that were unclassified at the time are determined to be, because of changing events, to now be classified at either the Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret-Senstive Compartmented Information levels. When, in the course of these reviews, there is a dispute between two or more agencies about this – and one of them is usually one of the Intel Community agencies – a third department or agency is brought in to adjudicate. Currently the CIA, if I’m tracking correctly, is arguing that there are 20 or so emails that now need to be classified, or were mistakenly wrongly determined to be unclassified at the time they were sent, because of the material they contain. The Department of State has contested this, and the Department of Justice is investigating and adjudicating the dispute. This is very routine and happens all the time.

    There are, I think, two additional dynamics here. The first is FBI Director Comey. I think his suggestive innuendo on what is going on, knowing that the news media isn’t going to report the explanation I provided above, is a warning shot across the bow to Secretary Clinton about who has power in DC should she be elected President. FBI directors tend to serve 10 year terms, so he’d stay on should she be elected. The other dynamic is that the Intel Community is doing the same thing. Letting her, both as a potential next President and State because she’s the former Secretary of State, who has the real power: the IC, not the State Department. So some of this is inside the beltway institutional politics.

  186. 186.

    Corner Stone

    @Adam L Silverman:

    When, in the course of these reviews, there is a dispute between two or more agencies about this

    Hmmm…
    “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

  187. 187.

    WarMunchkin

    The more I watch these debates, the less I like the candidates. I don’t really know why. Debates seem like one of those things we think are necessary but are actually monumentally stupid.

  188. 188.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Adam L Silverman: I was wondering if some people in the intelligence community were just ideological conservatives who were trying to take her down. And if some fraction of them might change their tune as it increasingly looks like a completely batshit person is the R nominee.

  190. 190.

    TallPete

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: I agree with your friend for the most part but I don’t think the establishment Dems will screw the black voters, I just don’t really see much difference between Clinton and Sanders on issues of race. Can you name any? I think those that have voted so far tend to be more socially conservative and familiar with Clinton. We’ll see how vote breaks down in the northern/western states.

  191. 191.

    Matt McIrvin

    @WarMunchkin: Early on people were complaining that the debates made the candidates look so good, it was a shame that DWS had arranged for so few of them. I guess they get more hardball as the race heats up and Clinton comes closer to taking it all.

  192. 192.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    There are, I think, two additional dynamics here. The first is FBI Director Comey. I think his suggestive innuendo on what is going on, knowing that the news media isn’t going to report the explanation I provided above, is a warning shot across the bow to Secretary Clinton about who has power in DC should she be elected President. FBI directors tend to serve 10 year terms, so he’d stay on should she be elected. The other dynamic is that the Intel Community is doing the same thing. Letting her, both as a potential next President and State because she’s the former Secretary of State, who has the real power: the IC, not the State Department.

    Thanks, that all makes sense. To me it’s just going to turn into another rage point for conservatives, because their idiot “leaders” are telling rank and file Republicans she will be handcuffed and led away. Trump is actually the worst. He’s all but guaranteeing them she will be arrested.

    This is exactly what got them into trouble with their voters- they exaggerate and their voters believe them and then get really angry when these things they promise don’t come to pass.

  193. 193.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Corner Stone:

    The screaming from the people w’ho wanted 26 debates, as in ’08, would be audible as far as the Oort cloud. ‘Wasserman-Schultz-thumb-on-scale’ gets 50K hits on Google as it is.

  194. 194.

    WarMunchkin

    @Corner Stone: @Matt McIrvin: To clarify, my not liking the debates has nothing to do with the state of the race or how many we’ve had. I had a chance to look back at the general election debates going back to Kennedy-Nixon; they all make me feel intellectually impoverished.

  195. 195.

    Adam L Silverman

    @O. Felix Culpa: This was in the context of a group of unaware staff failing to include me, as the cultural advisor, in planning African American history month events. What they had planned had terrible optics, so after speaking with both the Public Affairs Officer, who was also concerned, I wrote a very detailed memo by email delineating the problem and its context.

    Every one of the heritage month/week/day events I was involved in planning were okay. This one, and one other, were a bit mucked up. There were a group of staff that never wanted a cultural advisor assigned and certainly were even more unhappy that the one assigned actually believed he had a responsibility to do his job, not let them do whatever they wanted/had been doing. Fortunately I had a very supportive commanding general.

  198. 198.

    Miss Bianca

    @redshirt:

    What’s fair trade with China, though? With India?

    I don’t have a snappy answer for that one, I’m afraid. Maybe Baud! would have taken my bid to be his VP candidate more seriously if I had…

  200. 200.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Matt McIrvin: A lot of it is institutional in fighting.

    That said, there are a number of VP Cheney acolytes that were brought in, originally, on term appointments and then converted to regular civil service. The plan, which worked, was to salt them away at key bureaucratic choke points just in case the permanent Republican majority didn’t emerge. The Atlantic had a detailed story about this back in OCT 2005 or so if I’m remembering correctly.

  201. 201.

    TallPete

    @WarMunchkin: there should be a series of debates – each about one major topic with a good moderator armed with facts and quick to call out candidates where needed. As is it’s allot of sound bites and canned responses.

    Compared to the poop-flinging debacle in (R) debates, this looks like Oxford-style substance tonight.

  203. 203.

    Ruckus

    @WarMunchkin:
    That’s because the debates are not there to teach you anything but to get you to accept one of the candidates on stage. If they really wanted you to learn something the format would have to be entirely different and it probably would be boring for most. You’d see people like Sherrod Brown come out and explain trade with Clinton, while Sanders would have his person with him for the same segment. After a while you might just get the impression that the candidates don’t know all the answers and depend on others to help them. Which is of course the truth but who wants a leader who needs others to explain details?

  204. 204.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Kay: The important things to remember are:
    1) At the time she set up her own server, it was legal. The change making it off limits and requiring the use of the official government email did not begin until after her term as Secretary of State ended.
    2) This is why her two immediate predecessors, Secretaries Rice and Powell, did the same thing.
    3) As the head of the State Department, she is the final classification authority for that agency. So even if there is a written order somewhere to take something classified and send it via unclassified email, she had the authority, provided it originated with the State Department to declassify it. If its classification originated with another agency she did not. But to be honest, that’s a quibble.
    4) No one is going to prosecute Secretaries Rice and Powell, even now that they’ve found some of the same types of things, FOIAed material where there is a current dispute over its classification because of the FOIA request. And as a result no one is going to prosecute Secretary Clinton. Secretary Powell has already come out and said this is all ridiculous.

  205. 205.

    redshirt

    @Miss Bianca: There’s no easy answer. When you can pay a fair wage of 3 dollars an hour in one country and 33 in another, where do you think companies will move their manufacturing concerns?

  208. 208.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Kay: Rings true with regard to criminal defense in general, certainly.

  210. 210.

    gwangung

    @TallPete:

    I agree with your friend for the most part but I don’t think the establishment Dems will screw the black voters, I just don’t really see much difference between Clinton and Sanders on issues of race. Can you name any?

    From an objective view, the African American community as a whole, particularly the older ones, finds Clinton a more responsive and interactive person who can lay down specifics and will adjust her views. 30+ years of working closely with the black community, and being somewhat responsive to their concerns). Sanders is behaving like a lot of white politicians who show up in black communities looking for votes, and not following through…and he’s not aware he comes off that way.

  211. 211.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Corner Stone: I think he was a terrible pick. He’s been off the Administration’s messaging script on law enforcement stuff for a while. Being the least bad of Attorney General Ashcroft’s lieutenants is faint praise. If the President really felt he had to pick a former GOP DOJ appointee to be FBI Director, he should have either picked former US Attorney Fitzpatrick or former US Attorney David Iglesias. These two are honest.

  212. 212.

    Ready

    Marco or even Ted would take either of these jokers down several pegs.

    The best your side can do is two septuagenarians–one is a soclist, and the other is about to be indicted._

  215. 215.

    Miss Bianca

    @Adam L Silverman:

    There were a group of staff that never wanted a cultural advisor assigned and certainly were even more unhappy that the one assigned actually believed he had a responsibility to do his job, not let them do whatever they wanted/had been doing.

    So, was your work as Cultural Advisor dealing with internal military culture as well? I guess I presumed you were responsible for dealing with external affairs like, “for God’s sake don’t do such-and-such when you meet the Emir”.

    Your colleagues sound like my dad – a gentleman and a scholar whom I loved dearly, but who had his blind spots, as do we all – b*tching about having to take “diversity training” at the college where he taught. He would not stop pouring scorn on the very notion, till I finally couldn’t take it any longer and said, “Dad, just last week a professor who looked just like you propositioned me at the university bookstore. I wonder if he was just as wittily dismissive of *his* diversity training.” I think it was one of the few times I reduced him to spluttery speechlessness.

  216. 216.

    Corner Stone

    @Adam L Silverman:

    If the President really felt he had to pick a former GOP DOJ appointee to be FBI Director

    And…why? Why would he have done such a thing? Commenters here were all onboard the Comey train only because Obama nominated him. Comey has been an assface the entire time he has held the position.
    Anyone care to tell us all why Obama had to nominate Comey to this position? Why he’s still there?

  217. 217.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Ruckus: If Larry Klayman tries to go after him in Federal civil court, I do not see Secretary Powell being genteel in his response. And that’s, honestly, what’s driving all of this. Klayman’s obsessive hunting of official emails, convinced that everything being done is somehow a conspiracy against him or something. Remember, he sued his mother over something trivial. And while he does occasionally turn up something useful, as in a batch of documents from VP Cheney’s energy summit, he’s basically just a litigious nuisance. Any sane civil court system would just start smacking him for abusing the system because of his paranoia and delusions.

  218. 218.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: From what I’ve read he’s a straight shooter. I would think he’d be an excellent pick, in any administration, for AG or FBI Director.

  219. 219.

    Miss Bianca

    @redshirt:

    “When you can pay a fair wage of 3 dollars an hour in one country and 33 in another, where do you think companies will move their manufacturing concerns?”

    And here I kept thinking that rising fuel prices would, eventually, make it so economically unfeasible to offshore production, and manufacturing jobs would have to come back to this country. That was when I figured we’d be seeing gas rise to $10 a gallon within the next few years. Silly me…

    And who knows when robotics are going to be able to take care of even service jobs more cheaply and efficiently than humans can?

  220. 220.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: Rather like my good experience with David Bunning, when he was an AUSA. Fitzpatrick would seem to be an excellent choice.

    Responses to you and kindly Doc Siverman downstairs.

  222. 222.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Adam L Silverman: Comey had great press (it seemed to me) since he stood up to those in W’s administration who wanted to go around Ashcroft. I assume that’s why Obama picked him.

    Patrick J. Fitzgerald (the former USA you were thinking of) would have been a great pick, I think.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  224. 224.

    redshirt

    Dems should start picking Dems as Sec. of Defense and for the CIA/FBI/ATF/ETC. Just on principle.

    I get why they didn’t in the past – to show bipartisanship and try to quell the increasing rancor in the other party. But that barn door is well and truly open now.

  225. 225.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Miss Bianca: On the Operational side of the house my job was directing and overseeing research and analysis into the socio-cultural dynamics of the Area of Responsibility and the Operational Environment. An example of that can be found here:
    http://public.carlisle.army.mil/sites/Landpower/Shared%20Documents/USAWC_Cultural_Operations_Report_Politicization_of_Iraqi_Identity_Final.pdf

    I was also, on the Ops side, responsible for conducting engagements, sometimes to set up engagements by my Commander or other senior members of the Staff and some time as a senior member of the Staff. And to provide socio-cultural support to all Staff sections and elements that needed it – including prep for conducting engagements.

    On the Generating Army and Professional Military Education side of things I was responsible for advising the CG and senior leadership on official Army policy pertaining to culture (read Tyler’s socio-culture based on joint definition of culture) for Professional Military Education, generating the Force, and in regards to Operational Support to the Force. I was also required to do in services, as necessary, and to prepare instructional materials on culture and oversaw all elements of culture in the curriculum. I was also responsible for being the liaison officer on culture back to my higher HQ at Training and Doctrine Command, as well as serving as TRADOC’s senior cultural SME. For my final two years I was dual hatted as the deputy to the director of my higher HQ. I was also responsible for providing strategic level cultural support to the Operational Army and Joint Force as needed. This is why I was the Temporarily Assigned Control Cultural Advisor to the Commander of III Corps, US Army Europe (same guy, progressively more senior commands), Chief-Civil Affairs Branch (to assist with a specific doctrinal/conceptual developmental project), Director-Institute for NCO Professional Development and Commandant US Army Sergeants Major Academy because they didn’t have a cultural advisor and the former had been a student of mine – so happy to help out, as well as providing support to a number of other elements, commands, offices, directorates, and agencies.

  226. 226.

    WarMunchkin

    @Miss Bianca:

    And who knows when robotics are going to be able to take care of even service jobs more cheaply and efficiently than humans can?

    Is it too late to add Universal Basic Income to the policy platform?

    @Ruckus: Well, whatever the true solution is, we should figure out a way to experiment with different debate formats. I can’t help but shake the feeling that these debates just erode democratic norms every time they are shown. And I’m not talking about just the GOP side. Whether it’s Sanders’ un-self-aware finger wagging or a debate team’s strategic deployment of a line followed by an e-mail salvo to reporters, these end up becoming incredibly useless and wasteful exercises. “The people” will always want the Colosseum, but it’s up to somebody to amend the process and figure out better way.

    Related: Do I need to hold elected office to become Glorious Dictator of the DNC, or can anyone hold that position?

  227. 227.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Corner Stone: He’s still there because the FBI Director, like the Director of Central Intelligence serves a ten year term. That said, none have ever made it that long. This was intended to depoliticize the office.

    As for why President Obama felt he needed a GOP former DOJ official? My guess is he wanted the nomination to get through the Senate without being held up because of partisan politics.

  228. 228.

    Technocrat

    @Miss Bianca:

    And who knows when robotics are going to be able to take care of even service jobs more cheaply and efficiently than humans can?

    There’s a TGIF-like restaurant in Pittsburgh where they have little boxes on the table. You can order your food from the boxes, and can play little party games with it. The waitstaff can take orders, but mostly just carry food from the kitchen to the tables. I’d guess those places have fewer waitstaff than ones where waiters are taking orders.

    It starts with little things.

  229. 229.

    seaboogie

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Hillary angry on guns. Good.

    Agreed. And she has been that way pretty consistently, lately. I love the not afraid or cowed by the NRA stance.

  232. 232.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Miss Bianca: The reality is that, fortunately, more and more of the personnel moving into senior ranks, at least in the Army, get the need for what I do because of what they went through in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem is that the unofficial Army motto is “two hundred and forty-one years of tradition unimpeded by progress”. So trying to get a program that has people like me up and running and then institutionalizing it has been very, very difficult. Some of that is normal institutional inertia, and the generating side of the conventional Army is the poster child for institutional inertia. Some of it is specific individuals, usually retirees now in civil service billets, that didn’t get it, because they didn’t need to when in uniform, and don’t get it now nor understand why its important. And when you’ve got these dynamics and combine them with the sequester, then things get rough. We’re on our second three star command group running the combined joint task force dealing with IS, Iraq, and Syria. They don’t have cultural support. I know – I’ve offered to go. And have offered to the HQ that is going to replace the current command group this summer. And we don’t have any institutional cultural subject matter expertise – it got eaten in the budget fights that resulted in the sequester.

  233. 233.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @WarMunchkin:

    Do I need to hold elected office to become Glorious Dictator of the DNC, or can anyone hold that position?

    Nope, and I think it’s a full time job and should be treated that way.

  234. 234.

    Doug R

    @Kay: Sorry. I just can’t let that TPP knock on Obama slide. TPP has labor provisions that NAFTA didn’t have. It’s better for workers everywhere and if allowing them to organize and get a living wage makes their costs go up, it makes us more competitive. And I want to sell my cherries to Vietnam.

  235. 235.

    Doug R

    @redshirt: The dirty little secret of all lot of manufactuering is how labor intensive it is. When processes become more automated, we become way more competitive.

  236. 236.

    different-church-lady

    @TallPete:

    I just don’t really see much difference between Clinton and Sanders on issues of race. Can you name any?

    Clinton seems to have a much better understanding that racism is more than just economic disparity.

  237. 237.

    Ruckus

    @BillinGlendaleCA:
    Nope, and I think it’s a full time job and should be treated that way.
    Exactly. It needs to have as much democratic party ideals as is possible and as few “I need to get re-elected next week,” ideals as is possible.

  238. 238.

    Cacti

    @gwangung:

    From an objective view, the African American community as a whole, particularly the older ones, finds Clinton a more responsive and interactive person who can lay down specifics and will adjust her views. 30+ years of working closely with the black community, and being somewhat responsive to their concerns). Sanders is behaving like a lot of white politicians who show up in black communities looking for votes, and not following through…and he’s not aware he comes off that way.

    He and his followers also have an annoying habit of insinuating that his participation in some sit-ins 50-years ago bought him lifetime immunity from criticism by black voters, and that black voters, in fact, owe him a debt of loyalty.

  239. 239.

    Ruckus

    @Doug R:
    We are competitive depending on the product. I once bid on repairing/modifying molds for TV housings for Sony because it was so expensive to ship completed TVs here, they built the TVs in San Diego. The only way they had to repair the molds was to ship them by air to Japan, fix them and air freight them back. They knew the quality of what companies here in the states and it was far cheaper to fix them here. The cost was, back in the 80s about $6,000. to ship them each way. That hasn’t gotten cheaper, but the molds and the shipping of the TVs has due to LED/Plasma TVs.
    Everyone in the mfg industry has access to the latest mfg process/machines and other economies are growing, meaning that producing the products there is now much more economical. We don’t compete in consumer products because most everyone demands the lowest prices, so we don’t mfg as much consumer stuff so there is less need for skilled craftsman. That and our societal/educational systems which values a college education over everything else, such as skilled craft work. (That’s why someone like Jindal the Rhodes scholar gets ahead, while people who can build stuff rarely do)
    That said, If I was 10-15 yrs younger and willing/able to work full time I could be making 6 figures with my knowledge/experience. And yes I know of jobs with that level of income, but no one to fill them.

  240. 240.

    gwangung

    @Cacti: Well, I interacted with one follower and he was totally mystified– even AFTER I pointed out that continued interaction, responsiveness to their concerns and more affluence in their community bought a lot of good will for the Clintons. (Got the feeling he was just this close to calling the black community stupid)

    I also got the feeling a lot of Sanders supporters have this binary thinking filter….they couldn’t conceive that Clinton could be more responsive, have more interaction than Sanders, and still have room for improvement. Any flaw (and lord knows Clinton has MANY flaws) instantly disqualified her from being a “good” choice for the black community.

  241. 241.

    Matt McIrvin

    Via Randy McDonald, here’s one (apparently black) Reddit commenter’s opinions on why Hillary Clinton is doing better with African-Americans.

    The most provocative and surprising claim in there is that Hillary today would get a considerable share of the black vote in a primary contest against Obama, and Bill would probably beat him. Don’t know if that’s true or not.

    But one important point the commenter makes is that, on average, black Democrats are just more conservative than white ones. (This should not be surprising: black Americans have a really strong reason to be Democrats regardless of personal ideology, whereas conservative whites will just vote Republican, leaving the more liberal ones to be Democrats.) Other things being equal, they’ll vote for more centrist Dems over left-wing ones because some of their policy preferences simply are further to the right.

  242. 242.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Nearly 25 years ago, my significant-soon-to-be-ex & I were at a bus stop in Luxembourg City waiting for the airport shuttle, & got talking with a young Danish man who started berating us about America’s horrible treatment of its AAs, with the strong implication that his countrymen were better. Finally I said,

    I’d like to see what would happen if 10-12% of your population was easily identifiable as “other” & easily scapegoated for the disappointments of the Danish working-class. I don’t think you’d do any better than we have. In fact I think you’d be worse.

    Not long after, it was reported to me (by a friend who’d lived in Copenhagen for over a decade) that there was a major foofaraw over Somalis who’d been admitted to Denmark as political refugees along with their families. IIRC it was discovered that many of the “family members” were unrelated, & that many of the “politicals” hadn’t been particularly endangered at home–effectively these types had all emigrated for economic reasons & were busily taking advantage of the Danes’ generous support system. Again IIRC, the resulting outrage was a prime reason Denmark soon installed its first right-of-center government since WW2.

  243. 243.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Miss Bianca:

    And who knows when robotics are going to be able to take care of even service jobs more cheaply and efficiently than humans can?

    I was thinking of phone-based customer service software that could do well enough on the Turing test to convince the average USAn that s/he was speaking with a real person who they could understand & who had a similar cultural & socioeconomic background. (You might have two levels, one to screen incoming calls [from origin & various initial verbal cues] & put a linguistic & culturally appropriate version of the actual “service” software on the line…) The program would ooze empathy & sympathy but, unlike a real human being, would be programmed never to give the sucker, um, sorry, customer a damn thing that cost the corp a penny. And it would probably be even cheaper than outsourcing the help desk to Bangalore or Manila.

  244. 244.

    Miss Bianca

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    You know what? It is downright depressing to be presented with more evidence that left-wing social policies can apparently only be enacted and adhered to in the face of cultural/social homogeneity, and that threats to same prompt a swing toward right-wing reaction.

    ETA: Oh, yeah. And the other thing? The phone-automation thingie? That’s depressing too. Just a bundle of joy for me this morning, aintcha?

  245. 245.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Miss Bianca: Canada is a brighter spot: they don’t have the United States’ specific legacy of the slave system, but they have far more visible minorities than, say, Scandinavia, and despite several years under Harper, their social democracy is mostly intact.

  246. 246.

    Miss Bianca

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Yeah, well…Canada seems to be the exception to almost every kind of rule. Maybe that’s why ever since I was a kid growing up in Detroit I’ve wanted to move across the border.

  247. 247.

    Brachiator

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Via Randy McDonald, here’s one (apparently black) Reddit commenter’s opinions on why Hillary Clinton is doing better with African-Americans.

    I guess this only says that black people are not a monolith, and there is no single reason why any particular black person likes, or doesn’t like, Hillary.

    The most provocative and surprising claim in there is that Hillary today would get a considerable share of the black vote in a primary contest against Obama, and Bill would probably beat him. Don’t know if that’s true or not.

    This is total, absolute, bullshit.

    But one important point the commenter makes is that, on average, black Democrats are just more conservative than white ones.

    The critique of socialist and communist fantasies still holds. They don’t necessarily do squat for black people. The comment that this is often just another empty promise has much validity.

Comments are closed.