My season is starting up again, so that means a few more refereeing posts.
Last weekend, I was reffing a bunch of U-13 to U-16 games. Most of those games were reasonable as the coaches were decent, the players tried to play smart and hard and the parents were reasonably well informed and well controlled. However there was the constant refrain from the sideline about why we were not blowing the whistle on plays that some parent thought was a foul.
There are several reasons why a referee won’t blow a play dead.
Let’s acknowledge the most frustrating one — the referee did not see it, or more often, did see the situation but either failed to recognize the foul or recognized the foul and brain-farted acting on it. That happens due to inexperience, that happens due to getting screened or being out of position, that happens due to fatigue, that happens due to the fouling player being a subtle and sneaky bastard. It happens. Good referees do their best to minimize it, but it happens. But let’s talk about legitimate reasons to not blow a whistle.
The most obvious one is that in the opinion of the referee there was no action or contact that could be called a foul at any level of the game from U-6 Brownian motion ball to UEFA Finals. Sometimes there is contact, sometimes there is a player on the ground, and sometimes there is an injury where there was absolutely no foul. Soccer is a contact sport and contact can and should happen in the game.
A related but distinct reason to not blow a whistle is that the referee is interpreting the rules in a manner that the parents’ don’t understand. The most common scenario in the youth game is the ball hitting a player’s hand. If the player’s hands are in a natural playing position and the player is not attempting to purposefully strike the ball with an illegal body part, we’re not going to call a handling offense as the player did not handle the ball. It does not matter if the ball went straight to feet on a breakaway, the ball played the hand. As soon as the hand or arm is in a non-natural position during the normal run of play or the player deliberately attempts to hit the ball, we’re seeing a foul and probably hitting the whistle.
More frequently, the referee is making an active decision. There may be contact but it may be skill and competition level appropriate contact. This is where the referee will often say that something was a foul at Under-6 or high school but it is not a foul in U-14 or in the college game. As players get better with more skill and more strength, referees are more inclined to let more contact go. Spectators who see a medium challenge that looked a little bit off will often hear the referee tell both players that the contact was “trifling.” In soccer, “trifling” is a term of art. It means that the contact may have been illegal but the violation is so minor and the impediment to play is so small that there is no reason to blow the whistle. A common example of this is the hand fighting that goes on between forwards and defenders; someone may have grabbed and released someone within reaction time, but as long as the grabbed player is still able to get to where they want to go, very few referees are going to call it.
A similar reason is that the referee has made a decision as to where the foul line lies on a given day. Referees try to be consistent within games, between games and in best circumstances between referees working the same level of competition. However there will be variance. As long as within a single game, that variance is minimized, good teams can adapt. Some days I’ll allow a bit more hand fighting than other days. sometimes I’ll let harder tackles go in while other games basically require me to set a soft contact limit or risk a brawl. I am trying to read players and coaches for their expectations as to what type of contact they want. My preference is to hold a foul line about half a step below the frustration/retaliation point so I don’t have to blow the whistle as much, and I can let the game breathe. So there are situations where a parent can rightly say that I called a certain situation a foul yesterday but I let it go today. It is a conscious decision on the referee’s part.
The next reason why a referee will see a foul but not blow the whistle is advantage. In soccer, advantage is withholding of a stoppage because in the opinion of the referee the team that was fouled has a promising attack that would be interuptted and degraded by a whistle. We want to see fluid play, we want to see a screaming shot go into the top corner; that is pretty, that is fun, that is the point of the game. Advantage allows referees to see that. It also discourages completely cynical fouling because a cynical foul that does not demolish an attack usually means the defense is off-balance or outnumbered because there is at least one defender significantly out of position and unable to recover in time.
Advantage is a tough call to make. If I see a foul in the midfield where the attacking player has lofted a ball down the sideline and I see an attacking teammate making a long run, I want to hold my whistle. If that teammate can get a clean possession of the ball while possessing a numbers’ advantage in their support, I want to give the advantage as a fluid attack 25 yards from goal is a much higher probability scoring chance than a free kick 60 yards away. Referees have four seconds to watch and wait to see what develops. If that ball is lofted down the sideline to a player making an attacking run and it either skips out of bounds or there are three defenders rotating back, a good referee will see that, and blow the whistle a couple of seconds late. If they want advantage, they should announce it very loudly and clearly so that everyone within 200 yards knows what happened. As a side note, the referee can reserve the right to caution or send off a player for a shitty foul even as they call advantage, and they should mentally track persistent infringement on advantages as well as whistled fouls.
Advantage varies greatly by both skill of the players and the position of the ball. I am far more inclined to allow for things to play out for a second or two at the top games that I referee. I want to see what the players can do as most non-cynical fouls are because the fouling player was late or out of position which means the fouled player if they are still moving is moving into open space. At lower skill levels, I am more inclined to go to a fast whistle because the fouled player will have had their fluid movement totally disrupted and won’t have good support to distribute out to. Location on the field matters. I am not calling advantage in the penalty box unless the ball is in the back of the net. I am extremely reluctant to call advantage in the defensive third unless there is a clear three touch build up to grab sixty yards of field position and a numbers advantage going forward. Most advantages will happen in the middle third as it transitions into the attacking third.
Now we can move onto advance refereeing.
Not calling a foul can be an effective means of game control and game management. There are both Light side and Dark side applications of this technique.
Reciprocation can be a tool. I was refereeing a men’s amateur game a couple of years ago where in the first minute White had a corner kick. The ball crossed the box at 15 feet in the air and skipped out of bounds. The Black sweeper bear hugged White’s forward. I had a brief word with the sweeper telling him I saw it and did not want to see it again. A PK would have been a massively disproportional sanction for an unplayable ball. Two minutes later, Black had free kick that they were playing as if it was a corner kick into White’s box. The ball went five yards over the cross bar and into the parking lot. White’s holding midfielder had attempted to yank down Black’s winger. I had a brief word with White and he started to whine that his guy had been hammered at the other end, but as soon as I told him that I saw that and already spoke with Black, he accepted the decision and accepted that he was getting off easy. Both teams knew I was seeing what was going on off the ball. I had both knuckleheads in my back pocket and favorably inclined to listen to me. That was a fun game to referee.
That is a Light side application of reciprocating non-calls.
There is a Dark side. Every referee worth their salt knows about the Dark side, they may not go over their, but they know about some of the tricks.
Non-calls can be an effective diving management tool. If a player is diving, the referee can let the player know that he is having a really hard time distinguishing fair and legal contact versus unfair and illegal contact. If that is said in sotto voce near the dived against’ team’s holding midfielder and sweeper, they often get the clue that they get a freebie as long as it it not too severe. A forward who has been going to the ground at a stiff breeze and the mere presence of a defender within playing space will soon get the clue to play through contact after he is driven hard into the ground once or twice.
Big R
I want to hear more about the exploits of Rob.
The Dangerman
So, my Yale over Duke pick looks uninspired right now; Oregon should finish Duke off in the 16 at least.
dollared
Robert, I may have missed it, but can you comment some time on the difference between styles of play in various national leagues? I have seen some absolute muggings in MSL(pulldowns and slide tackles from behind, hip checks instead of shoulder challenges, clotheslines and elbows) (Kansas City is a frequent offender) that with a certainty would not be allowed in La Liga, and probably wouldn’t be allowed even in the EPL.
Also IMHO, this let-the-boys-play attitude seems to flow down to the youth leagues in the US as well, and rewards the wrong kind of player. Do you have thoughts on this?
ThresherK (GPad)
I know there’s a ref’s gesture for “play on”, but does that differentiate between the advantage call and the “I see no foul to whistle” during play, or is it in any word the Red may have afterwards?
JMG
Dear Mr. Mayhew: The term Brownian motion ball to describe U-6 soccer is perfect.
The Dangerman
Then again, maybe Duke will make it a game after all.
raven
@The Dangerman: Yale makin a run!!! See if the old arty officer can come up with something.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
Richard, love your discussions & wish more refs would have these sorts of sessions.
An interesting thing happened in the Womens WCHA this year. Penalty calls for the season were about 50% of their historical average and I can assure you the delicate little flowers were not playing any differently than they have in the past. The history of the league is that it has been dominated by 3 teams & one of those dropped off 3-4 seasons past so it is now 2 rivals & 6 also-rans. What I wonder given the disappearing act the refs performed this year is, do you ever get interesting instructions from the top folks? I understand they may say things like “We want to emphasize X this season” to say reduce injuries but have you ever been encouraged to turn a blind eye so as to make a race more competitive?
bluehill
What is up with these activist referees? I don’t think the founders intended this.
eemom
I went to Yale undergrad and Duke law school. Good thing I don’t give a shit about basketball, or I’d be a split personality or something.
Actually, that’s not entirely true…..I hope Yale wins, cuz I hate Duke.
humboldtblue
I didn’t have the brains or the grades to even sniff Yale or Duke but I was smart enough to start following Leicester City toward the end of the season last year as they went on a tear and kept themselves from relegation.
Now the Foxes, against all that is common and sensible and in clear flouting of tradition, class, and caste, they are zeroing in on their first Premiere League title under the guidance of the world’s favorite grandpa, Claudio Ranieri.
It’s quite simply an amazing story and unprecedented in European football.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Cosign to JMG’s comment. :-)
Your love of the game and the desire for kids to have fun playing it really comes through in these posts. I loved playing community-league soccer for a couple of years as a kid. Our team was horrible and I wasn’t able to continue for various reasons, but I always look back on those times with fondness.
Is it common for kids these days to get instruction on how good refereeing is done? I would think that especially in middle-and-high school, letting kids know what the refs are looking for (other than “play fair, be safe, and have a good time”) would help reduce the “Unfair!!11” feelings that are so common in those ages.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
randy
don’t know if you get a large volume of readership from these articles, but I rather enjoy them, keep then coming!
trollhattan
@JMG:
That sure works, as does replacing the kids with kittens and the ball with a laser pointer.
eemom
:(
lamh36
Richard, I dont’ know if you’ve ever watched an episode of Black-ish on ABC, but last week’s show was on basketball camp for kids…one of the kids was on the team and the older brother was actually part of the referee team.
Here’s a clip ya should def check it out…in fact anyone who hasn’t watched Blackish before check the show out, it is truly the best sitcom on television right now!
I have never seen anyone more excited to be a referee?! ?? #Blackish
redshirt
Hey Richard,
Doubt you’re reading, but if so, in your professional opinion, what are the best to worst ref’d professional sports in the USA?
I would rank them
1. Hockey
2. Baseball
3. Football
4. Basketball
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
#1 baseball – I am constantly amazed how often the umpires get it right. Head and shoulders above the rest.
#2 Football – It is a distant second, they do Ok but miss far and away too much & ignore violations of the rules on every play. If the rules are that bad they should be changed.
# 3 NHL – they activly ignore the rules & allow thugs & goons to rule the game
#? – if you paid me I could care less about basketball – I THINK.. They ignore traveling if the player is any good & nobody can guess if they are going to call offensive or defensive penalties.
lamh36
@lamh36: Quotes from Blackish…
Just One More Canuck
@redshirt: I agree with your rankings – what bothers me about baseball is that stars are given the benefit of the doubt (either as pitchers or hitters, and that if say, Jose Bautista doesn’t swing at a pitch, the commentators assume that it must have been a ball, but some scrub September call up doesn’t get the same benefit. On the other hand Pitchers get called strikes on pitches that are a foot outside, and these things are thought to be normal.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
I used to enjoy watching the Lakers on TV and listening to Chick Hern do the play by play on the radio. He would make calls before the ref and was always right as far as I can remember. He’d also comment if he made a call and the ref didn’t, explaining both whys. He made the game far more interesting. I’ve listened to others and IMO no one could touch him.
The Dangerman
LA boy here; raised with Chick and Vin Scully (as announcers) and Coach as, well, Coach (and, if you aren’t an LA Boy, I mean John Wooden).
Read: Spoiled
Ruckus
Having worked in professional sports on the official side of the fence managing people who made decisions, and making them yourself about who, what, where and how, I will say it can be difficult and also fun. But you are the enemy in the battle to win, you are the cop, the judge and the jury all at the same time. If you don’t do it right you can negatively affect the outcome and that for sure isn’t your job. You need good, consistent rules, a good understanding of the game being played, from both sides. You need a good attitude, usually at the hardest time to have one. And you have to be fair.
redshirt
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): NHL – are you talking about fighting? I agree that’s an abomination of the rules – if you want to allow fighting, then change your rules to allow.
But all other hockey refereeing seems real tight to me. Like they never miss or get wrong offsides, icing, or any scoring play.
Ruckus
@The Dangerman:
This.
Used to play pickup at Polly on Thursday evenings for a couple of years. It’s always fun watching someone nearly a foot taller than you playing up close and very personal. Not being that foot taller nor that good meant that I didn’t play every week but more than enough.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@The Dangerman:
We used to have great radio guys here back in the old days. Now they are crap. The current baseball guys are classic – they are blathering about some guy who went 10 for 11 in double A or some game they saw 20 years ago and you can hear the game going on in the background. All of a sudden they realize the count is 3-2.
Scully was a good one thats for sure. Although he has one of my favorite spoonerisms. The Vikings were beating the LA Rams late in the game, Scully: “all that remains now is for the Vikings to eat out the clock”
Pandemoniac
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): Totally agree!
Baseball is slow paced and the angles are good enough for them to get it right.
Football depends on the teams, in the pros, the players are Trump-level sneaky bastards.
NHL – a variation on the old saying, “I went to a hockey game and a Trump rally broke out.”
Basketball approaches the esoteric level of modern interpretive dance. Traveling, carrying, and charging are a thing of the past. Their rule book is more of a suggestion box.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@redshirt:
Fighting for sure but the NHL allows hooking, holding, interference, cross-checking & charging to the detriment of the best players and the advantage of the not so good. It makes the games more competitive in one way, not very good players drag the best down to their level.
I was at the game where Dave Forbes removed Henri Boucha’s eye with his stick on purpose. I have never forgiven him or the NHL for not doing a damn thing about it. There are vicious assaults in games every year, some so egregious they deserve legal charges. But that is not as big a problem over-all as all the ugly that is left uncalled.
Litlebritdifrnt
Have any of you guys been following Eddie Izzard’s epic 27 marathons in 27 days fundraising effort? He has already completed 24, he completes 25 today and he is pulling a twofor tomorrow with two marathons back to back. The man is amazing.
http://www.eddieizzard.com/
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Pandemoniac:
deadspin runs a thing once in a while where they show every call a home plate ump makes and I am amazed at how consistent most of them are most of the time. For sure the stars get special treatment, hitter and pitchers are given a lot more leeway if they are stars and that is not right. Some umps have a wider zone or a smaller one, some higher & some lower. I don’t like that but I understand it & if they are consistent the players can adjust.
Our daughter was a catcher in fast pitch & she studied the umpires. She knew her pitchers & would work with them to find what an ump would call & what he wouldn’t. Usually by the third inning she knew what would be a strike if the umps were any good. I assume pro catchers & pitcher have an easier time of it because of more consistent but I am sure they know who is behind the plate & adjust for it.
redshirt
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): I doubt the NFL is any different in regards holding. It occurs multiple times by multiple players on just about every single play. What’s the point of a rule if it’s so consistently flaunted? Hypocrisy is worse than over-legality.
Uncle Cosmo
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): The “current baseball guys are classic,” all right: Classic shills. In my experience, when they “look up & see it’s 3-and-2” it’s almost always because they’ve been looking down at the ad copy they’ve been reading.
Once upon a time in Baltimore we had announcers who treated the game like high drama & were skilled enough to keep you on the edge of your seat–Ernie Harwell, Chuck Thompson, Frank Messer, Jon Miller. I’ve been ignoring Orioles radio ever since their venal shithead of an owner (I’m looking at you, Peter G. Angelos, you skiloyenima) ran Miller out of town because he wasn’t kissing his arse often enough on the air. Now the broadcasts are as exciting as listening to paint dry.
Eric U.
I don’t watch the NHL or NBA because of the refs. Hockey would be a great game if it weren’t for the violence, but I guess they would rather be an also-ran secondary sport rather than take a chance at losing the fans that are there for the fights.
The NBA apparently has made a decision not to worry much about the refs, and it makes it look too crooked for me to watch.
redshirt
Red Sox radio is great if for Joe Castiglione alone.
Pandemoniac
That is amazing when you think about the way baseball players (pitchers/catchers/batters) can get a feel for what the ump calls at the plate. And they do so from distinctly varying perspectives! How?
Somewhat related — soccer reffing, in general, and the advantage call, in particular, do require a crazy-nuanced understanding of the game. Half a century of experience has finally given American soccer moms and dads the required feel for the game to make the advantage/play-on call without chocking/choking on the whistle.
Enough refs have enough experience in soccer on some level that they bring this understanding to their reffing game. IMO, ex-defenders before ex-strikers, and ex-midfielders before all others are preferable in experience in the ref-side of the game (and I say that as a former midfielder).
The Dangerman
@Ruckus:
Oh, man, pickup in Pauley was great (then they built the Wooden Center and Pauley access got restricted, even to students). Played many a minute in there (mostly the B game; I played the A game once in PP and was dunked on the hardest I’ve ever been dunked on by Walter Downing, a player from Marquette or was soon to be going to Marquette … still scarred over it, decades later).
trollhattan
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Had no idea. He’s one of the funniest stand-up comedians I’ve ever seen and an accomplished actor but this? One in a million could handle the daily pounding of consecutive marathons.
raven
@The Dangerman: Ever play at the outdoor courts at Laguna?
ThresherK
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): From “Terry Pluto’s Loose Balls: The Short, Wild Life of the American Basketball Association”, Bob Costas (in about his first job waaay back when) broadcasting the Spirits of St. Louis’ second game ever, leading near the end.
(I’m not proud of the searching I had to do to find this quote.)
raven
@ThresherK: This is really good, I have the VHS
Long Shots: The Life and Times of the American Basketball Association
Ruckus
@The Dangerman:
For my size I was a decent amateur player. Could shoot OK, I think I understood the game flow, playing, etc, but playing against real college players (and I was in mid 20s and decent shape, notice everything is decent, nothing good or better!) was an eye opener. Not only the size but speed and aggressiveness. Not in run you over but in pushing it to the limit. You had to grit your teeth and stand your ground and doing that took away from the art of the game. Relatedly I’ve know people who played amateur ice hockey and loved it, and it took me a while to realize that in amateur ice hockey you don’t go to a fight and ice hockey breaks out. Fighting and all the things that people here have discussed about not liking hockey don’t apply. It’s a different game. And very enjoyable. Basketball at Pauley (thanks for the spelling update!) lost a bit of the same for me. The college guys wanted to play professional ball and I wanted to shoot hoops.
raven
Try this in the wayback machine
The In-Your-Face Basketball Book Hardcover – June, 1980
by Chuck Wielgus (Author), Alexander Wolff (Author), N. E. Wolff (Illustrator)
raven
@Ruckus: It was my life for about 20 years. I played city league ball in Champaign and ran the leagues in Urbana, I was never very good but I fucking loved it. I played in Athens until I was 50 and just couldn’t recover from the injuries. My brother is 10 years younger and played at Hawthorne High and took me to my only game at Pauley when Sac State was in town.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Ruckus:
@raven: (I think you’ll like this too)
A pal of mine (I even have some young friends!) is in college after 5 years in the army, and he shoots in pick up games before he lifts at the gym sometimes. He told a story about one where a regular age college kid said “I’ll guard the old guy” and they were all quite confused that he knew how to play, and played down low and tough. I laffed and laffed. Mostly at the notion that they thought a 27 year-old was “the old guy.”
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Uncle Cosmo: YUP. I was thinking “classic asshole” but I’m a bit crude
The game is secondary to their blovating.
raven
Holy shit, I googled Thornburn School and got this! My office was downstairs and this gym was upstairs. It’s bizarre picture but you can see the beam that ran above both backboards!
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@ThresherK:
OH MAN! I wish that was on tape. Thanks!
Halsey Hall was a classic old time sports guy in Minneapolis. Early in the Twins time here he was filling time late in a boring game late in the season with nothing to play for:
“I see a young couple down front behind the plate. They have a little game going on, He is kissing her on the strikes & she is kissing him on the balls.”
He remained employed but I guess he did get yelled at.
Ruckus
@trollhattan:
If you are in normal health and train properly (which takes a lot of work in itself) it is a shit ton of effort but not something that a human can’t do if they have the desire. But it’s easy to get injured doing this much work without rest/recovery. Remember he’s trying to complete the marathons, not win them. Running speed is a lot of the issue for normal humans. I have a friend who held Ironman records and his running speed warming up was minutes per mile better than my absolute short sprint speed. Of course he’s not normal. Side note I used to be able to walk 15 min miles all day long. That’s 4 miles an hour or just over 6 1/2 hrs for a marathon. Less than a work days time but a lot longer than a proper run time.
The Dangerman
@raven:
No, Laguna was a little far and, whenever I would go there (not necessarily for basketball), it was well packed; better to just enjoy the water and the “views” there.
For outdoor games, Manhattan Beach had great courts (not at the beach); much closer to my location at the time.
Mostly, I played indoors … easier on the knees … plus, some really good games at the gym I was at (also, Manhattan Beach). Lots of Lakers and Clippers played there. Mostly pros played pros (prevents injury) but I played a Laker once and didn’t recognize him (Tony Campbell). He kicked my ass.
ETA: Watching pros up close … they are physical freaks. Along with TC mentioned above, I’d run with Gary Grant (Clipper), Ron Harper (he may have been a Bull at the time), and a couple others that age doesn’t allow me to recall.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@raven: From the Bellamy salute era?
Did anyone hear/read what Trump said about 2nd Amendment in AZ today? I hope it wasn’t 2nd Amendment remedies, but that wouldn’t surprise me at this point.
Ruckus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
In the last 3 weeks I’ve had 2 people in separate incidents tell me that I look 15 yrs younger than I am. I have friends who have known me for decades and still don’t believe my real age. So when someone says the old guy or a passing group of kids calls me gramps, it’s almost funny.
ThresherK
@raven: Interesting thing to look for…at the library. My wife is of the opinion that my undying memories of the North American Soccer League is enough old-timey sport-obsession for one household.
Ruckus
@raven:
What the hell are those kids doing, and why is that teacher making them?
raven
@The Dangerman: The park on Ardmore? My sis lives in Hawthorne and I hung at the pier and played some at the park up from the city building. We were down at Laguna when I was out there for the 84 Rose Bowl and my brother and I were lucky enough to get in a couple of games. In Urbana I played on a team with Derek Holcomb, a 7 footer who started at Indiana and finished at Illinois. I also played against Eddie Johnson and Derek Harper and I know what you mean about how big and talented those cats are.
raven
@Ruckus: I have no idea, I just googled the school and that picture is in the Urbana Free Library digital collection. I assume it’s the pledge. I’m just blownaway that I found the gym where I played for years since it’s a pile of dust now.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
I am guessing they are saying the pledge of allegiance, the way the founders intended, without “under God” and with the right hand extended to the flag. Bellamy, who wrote the pledge decided this was the correct way to do it.
For some reason it fell out of favor in the 30s but I think we should bring it back as part of “original intent” along with expunging “under God”
Ruckus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Forgot to add, in boot camp I was one of the older guys, maybe the oldest in my company. Some of the young guys called me gramps.
I turned 21 in boot camp.
The Dangerman
@raven:
I believe that’s correct; I recall more courts (sat shot shows only 2 now) but it was a great location for a quality game.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@raven:
Nothing ever goes away on the internet!
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
My BIL got drafted when he took a sabbatical from his college program, it was 1968 and his board was short a couple. He was a 31 year old recruit with a PhD in physiology. That had to have been a nightmare.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
I also think we should remove the “Under Gog” part. Sorry couldn’t help myself.
And I think you are right, I believe that changed in the 40s -50s when the wrong words were added.
raven
@Ruckus: I turned 17 at the induction station.
raven
@The Dangerman: Thems were the days.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
I would think so. My sis knew a fellow with a Phd who told his draft board that they didn’t want him, but of course they did. He followed orders to the absolute letter. Was once told to paint a truck. Think about that in absolute terms. Yes he painted every square inch. Windows, seats, tires and all. My recollection is that he of course got in trouble with his sargent but the CO couldn’t do anything as he had indeed followed orders.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
It was the 50’s. Certain GOP Congressmen thought that a commie would burst into flames if they said those words so they were added to help Identify the red menace. Stupid GOP Congressmen are not a recent phenomena.
I fix the “Gog” thing btw
“When the politicians complain that TV turns the proceedings into a circus, it should be made clear that the circus was already there, and that TV has merely demonstrated that not all the performers are well trained.”
― Edward R. Murrow
raven
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): There palms are up so I don’t know what that means?
Ruckus
@raven:
I believe I’m slightly older than you from prior discussions but you went in long before me. Maybe best to get it over with, who knows, that’s a long time ago. Water under and all that.
raven
raven
@Ruckus: I’m 66 and I didn’t have much of a choice, jail sucked.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
Mine was ordered to a combat infantry training after basic. He thought that a waste of his education & experience so he wrote his Congressman. He was moved to a medical company & stationed at the Army hospital in Denver/ About 2 months lateer his CO called him & & asked who he had pissed off. It seems orders were sent to send him, specifically him, to Viet Nam. The CO said he had never seen that before they always asked for any volunteers first. So he did a year in country.
I do love the image of a painted truck!
Ruckus
@raven:
Unto each of us the bounty? The teacher in front is more pointing than palm up so who knows. Maybe like a salute. There is one correct way and then the versions that many of us used.
Ruckus
@raven:
Have a friend who’s judge may have been worse. His choice was Marines or……
raven
@Ruckus: They went down the line in Chicago and said Army, Marines, Army, Marines. . .
Richard Mayhew
@dollared: I can not speak intelligently enough on the differences
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
I’m not sure I made up for him having to go, but my congressman got the pentagon to review my medical records after I spent two months in the hospital. By the time the pentagon did anything I was stationed on a ship in Long Beach and the capt told the pentagon to stuff it and refused to send them my records. My understanding is that he got a call a day or two later from an admiral at 9am sharp EST, walking him up and talking in not the nicest terms. About 3 weeks later I was discharged, the radiogram on the Monday said honorable discharge no later than Friday at noon. When do you think I walked off that ship?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Ruckus: Yikes! You mean Stripes was a documentary?
Cheers,
Scott.
raven
@Ruckus: I got a pay advance at Ft Mac on my way back up to Lewis to ship out!
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@raven:
I’m 64 but am defective from the factory, Army wouldn’t have me if I wanted to go. I am lucky I never had to decide what I was going to do. A high school classmate filed CO, his dad was a colonel in the the USMC reserve, the kid ended up living at a friends house because dad tossed him out. Another acquaintance has a felony though he did no time it made his life tougher.
Ruckus
@raven:
In LA in 67 or 68, I’ve tried to forget, it was every third Marines. Marine drill sargent walked down the middle of the hall we were standing in, in our underware, holding everything else, telling the guys on the other side as he walked by, one – two, step back… at the end he had all the guys in the middle go to a room to be sworn in to the army. Then he told the third left, “You are mine, you are in the Marines now.” Sure did quite down the line. Shock will do that.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
My guess would be 11:59:59 & he made life as miserable as he could in your remaining time. Having workd with DoD, Dept of the Navy & several defense businesses I can say with some confidence that I have never met anyone as petty and vindictive as a Naval ship officer. I don’t know what it is but they seem to be the worst in my experience.
Ruckus
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Ask raven, I was in the navy. But I can say that McHales Navy was not all that far off. We even had an Ensign we called Ensign Parker behind his back. I seem to recall that someone did so to his face one day and I think he about crapped his pants at the horror that we though that little of him.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Ruckus: @raven: Doesn’t anyone read my posts? See comment 50.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
I had a very good friend who was drafted into the USMC. He was upset but decide he would make the best of it. He did not. From the first minute at San Diego his DI made him the goat because he was a draftee. One time the DI told them he was going to let them have ice cream at lunch but my friend didn’t move fast enough so nobody was getting ice cream. He said he didn’t dare go to sleep as the others would have killed him if they could. He finally decide the way out was to kill the DI. That didn’t work too well, he ended up is a disciplinary platoon for basic.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
I’m like raven, 66 but I think about 4 months older than him, and choices were, as you know not all that palatable. Be drafted, risk the Marines and insure you went to Vietnam as a grunt, or almost the same risk in the army, join the navy or air force, coast guard/national guard were very very hard to get into, Canada – for life – with probably no family support or job or…, federal jail. I really hold no animosity towards those that got deferments, even the evil darth. With how and why they got them, sure. Of course you could be like my friend, a yr older he got drafted, told his girlfriend the engagement was off as he didn’t want her to worry, then was sent to CO for army language school, which he stayed on as a teacher. 2 yrs in CO, walked away.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
Timing you have perfect. No one officially told me till Thursday afternoon and the captain was already fucking with everyone anyway. This moron had been the commander of the destroyer flotilla that I had been stationed within for 2 yrs. He lost that job, which he was very bad at, when the pentagon found a ship that they didn’t give a shit about that required someone of his rank to command. It was in pentagon parlance. a huge demotion and the end of his career. He took it out on all of us. Which is why he was such an asshole in the first place.
No it was the XO who gave me shit that day. He told me I’d be back inside 2 weeks, my kind always came back. My answer was I have a friend who’s dad owns a dairy, with lots of cows and each of those cows shits a lot every day. And that I’d shovel that shit for the rest of my life rather than work for the likes of him ever again. He was speechless. I was gone.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
I hold a grudge against those that were all for the war but somehow managed to avoid offering to fight it. I have a cousin who is on the wall, he thought the war was the right thing to do so he volunteered. We fought about that because I was against the war. We parted on unhappy terms but I respect that he put himself where he wanted others to go. 4-Fs like me had it easy, no choice to make. Too many opposed the war not because they thought it wrong but because they didn’t want to fight. Too many who fully supported that war & several since are only too happy to let others fight & die. Those are the ones I resent.
Ruckus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Sorry. Didn’t recognize the comment as the answer to the question I hadn’t asked yet, because some days I’m just slow. Both on the uptake and whatever the other side of that is.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
Spent a week in the hospital in basic, trying not to die from some unidentified thing I picked up. When I got out it was a Saturday and they decided to put me in another company on Monday, so I got to spend the weekend in the disciplinary barracks. As I walked in there were guys cleaning the well cleaned tile floor with a tooth brush. My first thought was “what the fuck, I almost die and now they’re going to make me do this?” but the desk jockey looked at my face and my orders and just laughed. Assigned me a bunk and told me to enjoy the weekend.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Ruckus: No apology necessary. My point was really aimed at my (among my favorites) pal raven. Who IMHO should have noticed that I’d pre-answered your question in reply to him. It’s all good.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
Yes I resent them for thinking war all the time for everyone but me. Sort of what I meant how and why they got deferments. The guys that wanted to go I didn’t really understand but then I was against the war as well. I just didn’t think my going to jail over it was going to solve/change anything, so I chose the next least objectionable option.
Also – How many of us at this age don’t have people on the wall? I’ve told raven that I’ve thought about going and seeing it but I don’t know that I can bring myself to do it.
redshirt
@raven: How tall are you Raven?
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
My friend said he was treated like dirt but didn’t mind because everyone was treated as badly & he was not the target of everyones hate. He did 2 tours and asked to do a third but they would not let him. He decided he wanted to make the Marines a career but as soon as their numbers went up he was discharged. He spent several months in a hospital in Seattle getting his head straight. He drives over the road now and and I see him about once a year when he passes by here.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@Ruckus:
I went, I thought it would be OK, it wasn’t. There is some guilt there about the way things went between my cousin & me. My wife wants to go, she has family there also, I’m not sure I want to go again but I don’t know what to say.
I bet none of the Bushs know any names there. Kids like you & I, working class neighborhoods I am guessing, we know names.
raven
@redshirt: 6ft
redshirt
@raven: Shit you’re easy to post up.
raven
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I’m watching 2 games at once, putting 7 meds in Lil Bits eyes and commenting. I’m sure to miss stuff.
raven
@redshirt: Oh yea. I could, however, shoot the j.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
I spent 2 months in the hospital as an ambulatory patient (assigned a bed, but got to go home at night) and several times a week had to attend group. I was among guys like your friend, trying to get their heads straight. I’m thinking some of them may still be in there. Or should be. I never saw combat, was stationed mostly on the east coast, but that 2 months taught me, scared me and changed me for life. I found out why I instinctively knew that combat was bad and no amount of patriotic bullshit would make it better. And yes I understand that sometimes it’s the least worst option. But it should always, fucking always, be the last one.
Ruckus
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor):
It’s in my bucket list.
Want to set a date and try it with someone else who doesn’t really want to go either but knows he should but not why?
Uncle Cosmo
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Back, oh, must’ve been in my early 20s (living at home after bombing out of grad school trying to figure out Plan B) I used to play in a mostly unofficial baskeball league on Saturday mornings at the local jr high. I’ve never been much of a bballer ‘cuz I can’t shoot for shit, but I can occasionally manage some D.
Our opponents for the day were led by a guy who was 6’3″ or so & pretty slick shooter. (I’m about 5’9″). He dribbled the ball downcourt & pulled up right in front of me at the top of the lane for a fadeaway jumpshot.
I snuffed him. Must’ve timed my jump just right. Batted the ball right back off the top of his head–one of my teammates scooped it up & drove for an uncontested layup.
A couple of minutes later he came right back at me, & once again I went up for the block. But this time as he shot he kicked back & I caught one instep right in my crotch.
My feet hit the floor. Then my knees hit the floor. Then my side hit the floor. Then the pain started.
As it happened he missed the shot, our guys rebounded & took it downcourt to score…& only when they turned around after the basket did they see me in a moaning heap under our own hoop.
Sic transit gloria basketballii, I guess
Uncle Cosmo
@Schlemazel (parmesan rancor): I’ve been. Once. When you’re an hour up the road by commuter train it’s easy, but I never got around to it until I had an excuse to play tourist in DC when friends from Europe came through. One of my HS buddies is on the Wall. Marine. Lasted 6 weeks in country. I was a pallbearer–honorary only, the Corps did the heavy lifting & lowering.
Funny, I was one of 607 (the number sticks in my mind for some reason) graduates of a blue-collar public HS in Baltimore County, half I guess male, most not headed to college for the 2-S deferment…& IIRC John was the only member of the class we lost over there. The only other fatality I ever heard of from our school was a guy a year ahead of me who’d been in my trig class. Corpsman.
(FTR I’m also 66. Sounds like a popular age around here.)
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@raven: I knew you were deep into hoops; it was mainly a joke. I saw someone walking a senior cocker that looked like Lil Bit this afternoon and I thought of her. And Bodhi, and Mrs. raven , and you of course.
Ruckus
@Uncle Cosmo:
Our parents must have gotten over the war long enough before that and decided that kids was a good thing because they sure seemed to all have made that decision around the same time. Of course I’m the youngest and was informed that at least one of us, not me, was conceived while one of them was on leave in an entirely different part of the country and just after the end of the war. A celebration such as it were.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Uncle Cosmo: I’m in my mid-50s, so I was too young to worry about being drafted or to have to think about volunteering for Vietnam.
I was in DC in early December in the late ’80s attending a conference at the DC Hilton (where Reagan was shot). Late one evening I decided to walk down to the Mall and see the Wall. It was practically deserted and was good for being alone with one’s thoughts.
It’s quite a moving monument.
It starts as a very low taper. As I walked down toward the center it began to loom and tower over me. It really gives one a sense of [t]he huge number of people who sacrificed so much… :-(
For you folks who were so strongly affected by those times, it’s well worth a trip – I think.
Cheers,
Scott.
Lee
&*^%$#( I missed it getting the question in early.
I’ve got a question that I’ve been waiting to ask for a month. Hopefully you are still following the thread.
High School girls game. Both teams roughly equal.
Keeper punts. The ball is going straight to white who is tracking the ball for possession.
Red is backing up trying to get a head on it and fixated on the ball.
A half second before the ball gets to white, white sees red who is about to crash into them. Red trips on white’s feet and goes down HARD.
Referee blows the whistle and immediately raises arm for a foul on white. Checks on red who gets up slow. Free kick. play continues.
My oldest (who referees a bit looser) said she wouldn’t have blown the whistle unless Red was actually injured.
Youngest says she probably would have blown the whistle for an head injury on Red.
Your call?
Richard Mayhew
@Lee: given what you described I have no foul but a whistle to check for a head injury, restart drop ball