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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Bundy Bunch Update: Late Evening Edition

Bundy Bunch Update: Late Evening Edition

by | 132 Comments

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For all you jonesing for your next fix – you know who you are, just a few items tonight.

Nevada Assemblywoman, and US House of Representative candidate, Michele Fiore appears to have gotten herself caught up in the rumor that 68 secret warrants have been issued for individuals involved in the Malheur and/or Bunkerville standoffs. This appears to be some overly creative thinking applied to what Federal law enforcement has actually been doing. It does, however, appear to be morphing into something else as there’s speculation on twitter that the Feds are looking to arrest anyone who appeared at the Bunkerville standoff armed. This would include several sheriffs and state representatives, some from out of state, who showed up in 2014 to support Cliven Bundy.

For anyone interested in pursuing a career in sovereign-citizen litigation, the Erwin Rommel School of Law is the place for you! I have no idea what the Desert Fox has to do with sovereign citizen litigation, but you have to admit its a catchy name. I’m sure their pro-seminar on theater strategy for desert warfare is to die for…

If anyone wants to read it, here’s the 37 page PDF of threats against law enforcement released by the Deschutes County Sheriffs Office as part of its ongoing investigation into the shooting of LaVoy Finicum.

Redacted_Threat_Examples_3222016

Finally, for the Hamilton aficionados among us – you know who you are – someone has, in the spirit of Hamilton, done Y’all Qaeda: The Musical.

Reader Interactions

132Comments

  2. 2.

    piratedan

    hoping the government takes the Pokemon approach to these fuckers…. gotta catch ’em all.

  3. 3.

    PatrickG

    I normally lurk, but I didn’t want the usual suspects thinking they’re the only ones passed out on a bathroom floor moaning “buuuunnn…. deeeeee”.

    Now, to follow some links and get my true fix!

  4. 4.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    Thanks for the peeps links earlier. And, as always, thanks for the fix.

  6. 6.

    burnspbesq

    Apparently some of the defendants are appealing the ruling that says they can be transported to Nevada for purposes of proceedings down there before everything in Oregon has been wrapped up. Haven’t been able to find copies of docs online, so I’m wondering what possible legal basis there could be for that.

  8. 8.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: Try to pass legislation that disarmed Federal law enforcement officers in the Department of the Interior (which deals with everything that is outside…) and to require the Federal government to turn Federal lands over to the states. Why do you ask?

  13. 13.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    I have no idea what the Desert Fox has to do with sovereign citizen litigation, but you have to admit its a catchy name. I’m sure their pro-seminar on theater strategy for desert warfare is to die for…

    Don’t expect them to teach you how to supply a defense, or anything else.

  17. 17.

    burnspbesq

    @LAO:

    Saw that on OregonLive. I feel for the poor FPDs who drew these clowns. If this is their punishment for bad acts in a prior life, those acts must have been reallllllllly bad.

  23. 23.

    Frankensteinbeck

    Fake legal advice is a big part of the Sovereign Citizen movement. They have ‘experts’ who give courses, sell packs of silly pseudo-legal forms, all kinds of stuff. There is a whole lot of grift involved, although that doesn’t stop the gurus from also believing their own bullshit.

  24. 24.

    burnspbesq

    Somebody wrote in a comment on a thread that randomly showed up in my FB feed today that because they occupied a bird sanctuary, they should all be sent to Pelican Bay.

    Setting aside my feelings about Supermax confinement, let me just say that the entire DOJ budget wouldn’t be compensation enough for us Californians to take them.

  25. 25.

    LAO

    Adam, I spent a good hour checking out the Rommel school of law today. I feel very ill served by my legal education. They didn’t teach me any of this stuff during law school.

  26. 26.

    Felonius Monk

    Thank you, Adam. I was starting to experience withdrawal symptoms. The fix arrived just in time. (Bundy Dust?)

  27. 27.

    Origuy

    The best business name ever was a process server in San Jose, The Attila the Hun School of Charm.

  30. 30.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: You’d do it much cheaper than I would. And it still wouldn’t be worth it.

  32. 32.

    Prescott Cactus

    @Adam L Silverman:

    the Erwin Rommel School of Law

    I think they specialize in Plea Deals, perhaps not always great ones. . .

    Wikipedia: Erwin Rommel, linked to a conspiracy to assassinate Adolf Hitler, he was ordered to commit suicide with a cyanide pill, in return for assurances that his family would not be persecuted following his death.

  37. 37.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: Nor would I (I’m a horrible person) but just the interaction with the idiots wouldn’t be worth it.
    @Adam L Silverman: Indeed, but their filing will delay that. Surprise!!

  40. 40.

    LAO

    @burnspbesq: I agree supermaxes and solitary confinement are really bad. Thankfully, for the state of California, the Feds have several equally horrible facilities.

  45. 45.

    Viva BrisVegas

    the Erwin Rommel School of Law is the place for you! I have no idea what the Desert Fox has to do with sovereign citizen litigation

    I would suspect that is called the Erwin Rommel School of Law because while its founders may have boundless admiration for the Third Reich, Rommel was the only German general they could think of who didn’t join the Nazi Party and/or help shovel Jews into ditches.

    Not that they consider those qualities to be disqualifications for anything other than marketing reasons.

  46. 46.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @efgoldman:
    I’m sure it is real. I just started reading, but I recognize several Sovereign Citizen tactics, like the pre-trial motions and the suggestion to sue the prosecutor (RICO is one of their magic words). Note how the entire strategy is predicated on trying to obstruct the trial system rather than win it. If one of the Bundies goes Sovereign Citizen, we will see a circus so hilariously weird, even us laymen can appreciate it.

    Also, notice that threatening and intimidating the judge is very important. Just… imagine how that will play out.

  47. 47.

    LAO

    @redshirt: Serious response. They are both equally abhorrent. I actually can’t choose between them.
    Last year, I wrote part of a appellate brief on the pre trial conditions a defendant (the issue was what “credit” or consideration did he deserve at sentencing). I did a ton of research about solitary confinement and how utterly dehumanizing it is. The UN actually did very large study. We are one of the few nations in the world that uses it for purely administrative reasons. It’s pretty vile.
    And of course, I am opposed to the death penalty, which is applied in this country in a purely abritrary and racist way.

    ETA: and for moral reasons!

  48. 48.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: @Adam L Silverman:

    OT; Settle a disagreement?

    My recent policy and advocacy work…will allow me to be an immediate asset to the Office of Drug Control Policy.
    OR
    I believe that my recent policy and advocacy work…

    I suspect LAO (+Omnes + Steve in the ATL+ burnspbesq) can identify mine as opposed to the suggested edit.

  54. 54.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @burnspbesq: I wasn’t actually considering the edit – specifically for the reason you noted. It was a no brainer to me. When Mr. Q offered the edit, I wanted to be certain I hadn’t lost my mind/perspective. Spring is kicking my ass this year, so I’m being cautious.

    FWIW, I do believe I’m extremely well-qualified for the position, given that I’ve spent much of the last 2 years doing what they are hiring for in a different locality. But how I feel is an inappropriate element of a piece of writing, as noted.

  55. 55.

    Anoniminous

    @LAO:

    Tell your cheap law school to update their tank regiments from Panzer IIIs to Panzer IVs. And those PAK 36 anti-tank guns are bullshit. Move to the PAK 38 or GTFOH.

  56. 56.

    BruceFromOhio

    I have no idea what the Desert Fox has to do with sovereign citizen litigation, but you have to admit its a catchy name. I’m sure their pro-seminar on theater strategy for desert warfare is to die for…

    I’m itching to sign up for “The Whole Enchilada”, although maybe I should try the Civil and Criminal Enchilada Combo, maybe I can make life a sustained living hell for someone, anyone.

    @efgoldman: Its a dessert topping AND a floor wax.

  57. 57.

    Kropadope

    @piratedan:

    hoping the government takes the Pokemon approach to these fuckers…. gotta catch ’em all.

    Catching them all has long since become an unrealistic objective, aside from unnecessary unless you want the literature in your pokedex for each creature. Get the strong/tactical ones for fights and the ones you need to breed good, tough to learn moves onto your battle team.

  59. 59.

    Roger Moore

    @redshirt:

    And the Republican House’s reaction to this whole affair was?

    To propose legislation that would transfer administration of BLM land to state and local government, i.e. to give the Bundy Bunch much of what they want.

  60. 60.

    Citizen_X

    the Erwin Rommel School of Law

    You beautiful bastard, I read your webpage!

    And though this video is 13 minutes, it’s worth watching. It’s a Florida judge encountering a sovereign citizen type, who finds out that his line of bullshit doesn’t actually work in court. (e.g. “Your honor, I’m not a person, I’m an individual!” I wasn’t able to figure that one out, but it seems rather important to him.) The judge had encountered the sovereign citizen types before, and feeds the guy just enough line for him to hang himself.

  61. 61.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: The best way to appreciate that is to wear noise cancelling headphones while sitting in a closed up cardboard box with a little slit window cut into its side.

  62. 62.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Citizen_X: The best one of those I ever saw, and I can’t find the clip anymore, didn’t have anything to do with sovereign citizens. It was shown by Keith Olbermann on Countdown. It was a drug dealer who was being arraigned. The judge handling the arraignment confused him with bank robber – his customer who was robbing the bank to pay him for the drugs. The drug dealer basically cuts the judge off and starts repeating over and over: “your honor, I’m not the mother fucking bank robber, I’m the mother fucking drug dealer.” It was hilarious!

  63. 63.

    Luthe

    @Origuy: I’m fond of the Geese Police* myself, mostly because their slogan is “Get the Flock Out!”

    *spotted in suburban NJ

  65. 65.

    Clem

    @Frankensteinbeck: Speaking of grifters, KrisAnne Hall comes out in the comment section on this opinion piece about legal background in Public Land Ownership. She signs her comments using JD like it is the ultimate cred. She is the Slippin Jimmy of the sovcit. Can’t figure why she uses two names though. Anyway, the US Legal system has a lot to learn from KrisAnne Hall, JD.

  67. 67.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: Actually its an excellent report. Solitary is a horrible way to treat anyone, even/including a prisoner.

  69. 69.

    LAO

    @redshirt: Not sure but I definitely know locking some one up in a 6×8 cell for 23 hours a day without any human contact is not humane.

  72. 72.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: Yes. Solitary is, for all intents and purpose, a form of psychological torture. If we’re talking a single inmate cell with access to regular exercise, showers, and a minimal amount of interpersonal interaction that’s one thing. But actual solitary is very, very difficult to justify given what we know about what it does to people.

    I’m not suggesting that child molesters, mass murders, whether serial or spree killers, terrorists, serial rapists, and other of the worst types of offenders should be coddled.

  74. 74.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: Agreed. Solitary is inhumane for anyone.

    @redshirt:

    Even the mass murderer? Mass pedophile? Even the serial killer psychopath?

  75. 75.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: She was in Florida. I don’t think her JD has been stripped though. More recently, she’s been listed by the SPLC as an extremist. She’s been making hay about it on twitter.

  77. 77.

    redshirt

    @Adam L Silverman:

    : Yes. Solitary is, for all intents and purpose, a form of psychological torture. If we’re talking a single inmate cell with access to regular exercise, showers, and a minimal amount of interpersonal interaction that’s one thing. But actual solitary is very, very difficult to justify given what we know about what it does to people.

    Is there a difference in these two types of solitary? A prison cell alone versus solitary?

  78. 78.

    trollhattan

    O/T What happens when the Trump magic wears off. Stephanie Cegielski has second thoughts.

    I was sold.

    Last summer, I signed on as the Communications Director of the Make America Great Again Super PAC….

    I’ll say it again: Trump never intended to be the candidate. But his pride is too out of control to stop him now….

    The problem with characters is they are the stuff of soap operas and sitcoms and reality competitions — not political legacies.

    Trump made me believe. Until I woke up.

    You can give Trump the biggest gift possible if you are a Trump supporter: stop supporting him.

    He doesn’t want the White House. He just wants to be able to say that he could have run the White House. He’s achieved that already and then some. If there is any question, take it from someone who was recruited to help the candidate succeed, and initially very much wanted him to do so.

    The hard truth is: Trump only cares about Trump.

    And if you are one of the disaffected voters — one of the silent majority like me — who wanted a candidate who could be your voice, I want to speak directly to you as one of his biggest advocates and supporters.

    He is not that voice. He is not your voice. He is only Trump’s voice.

    Trump is about Trump. Not one of his many wives. Not one of his many “pieces of ass.” He is, at heart, a self-preservationist.

    In fact, many people are not aware of the Trump campaign’s internal slogan, but I will tell you. It is stolen from a make-believe television presidency on The West Wing where Martin Sheen portrayed President Bartlet. The slogan on the show amongst the idealistic group of Bartlet’s staff was “Let Bartlet Be Bartlet.”

    Inside the Trump camp, the slogan became “Let Trump Be Trump.”

  81. 81.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: There are two arguments for the death penalty. One is normative, the other empirical. The empirical is that it serves a deterrent effect. All of our empirical research shows that is not the case. The normative argument is that some actions deserve certain responses by the states. So murder calls for the state to sanction a maximum punishment of death for the murderer.

    Given that the empirical argument doesn’t carry water, I’ve always been more comfortable with the normative one. However, because we have more and more evidence that we can’t actually administer the death penalty in a manner that doesn’t either place innocent people on death row or actually execute them, I’m not a big fan of even doing it for normative reasons.

  84. 84.

    Clem

    @LAO: I tried to look it up. She is no longer a member of the Florida Bar. She was fired and she sued her employer and won a settlement but Goggle didn’t give up any thing on getting removed from the bar.

  86. 86.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Adam L Silverman: She’ll always have the degree, but without a license she can’t practice legally. Not that such a technicality would stop her, since bar discipline committees no doubt have flags with fringe on them.

    More recently, she’s been listed by the SPLC as an extremist

    It’s appropriate designation, and of course it’s a point of both pride and outrage for her.

  89. 89.

    trollhattan

    @redshirt:
    Methinks the hole in the system is the lack of effective treatment for the criminally insane, sociopathic, etc., which leaves some folks at a status assuring they can’t ever mix with others. We’re fine with dropping >$100k/year housing them, not spending money on real psychological treatment.

    Giving them 30 minutes a day to look at a sliver of sky outdoors isn’t an answer either, but the prison industrial complex has taken a life of its own.

  93. 93.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: Yes some facilities have inmates in single cells, but they are still in the general population. Or that was the idea until we wound up with over crowding. Last week I read an article about how one prison in California is so over crowded that they’ve now doubled up inmates in solitary, which is kind of strange as its no longer solitary.

  95. 95.

    redshirt

    @trollhattan: When you put it that way, why not give them small apartments (in jail) with plenty of food and then not interact with them for weeks. Reduces administrative costs and perhaps is more humane.

  97. 97.

    LAO

    @Clem: thanks for looking.

    @redshirt: we are going to have to agree to disagree. Solitary confinement or SHU as my clients refer to is used by the american prison system as an administrative punishment. For example, I have one client in the state system who has been sentenced to 30 days in the box for a phone violation (absolutely do not know what that means). No one will tell me.

    Mentally ill prisoners often wind up in solitary because prisons can’t cope with them.

    I linked to a study of the psychological damage this does to inmates. I’m not going to repeat there findings here.

  98. 98.

    redshirt

    @Adam L Silverman: That’s amusing from a distance – two men in solitary.

    I’m sure it’s Hell in practice.

    I wonder what our goal is when imprisoning people – is it to prepare them to return to the “real world”?

  99. 99.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Adam L Silverman: I knew you did but pedants gotta pedantify, y’know? And your comment was not clear about your knowledge so I wanted to educate others. Yeah, that’s it. : )

  100. 100.

    LAO

    @redshirt: one of the big problems was the cut back in programs for the inmates. Once prisons lost these educational and recreational programs, administrators lost most, if not all, bargaining chips to deal with misbehavior.

    ETA: also prisoners have less structure to their days and more time to get into trouble.

  102. 102.

    redshirt

    @LAO: I don’t doubt or disagree with anything your saying.

    Just fictional what if’s from my side. You deal with the reality.

    For fictional example, what would you do with Wilson Fisk?

  103. 103.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: She’s practicing without a license if she’s practicing – link at 93. Her SPLC license as an Anti-Government Extremist is in good standing, however.

    I’m out for the evening. Thanks to all for the fine discussion, and and thanks for the fix, Adam.

  104. 104.

    NotMax

    Mentioning because of the Rommel reference and your known interest in comic books.

    One of the most original comics (and quite well done it was, too), albeit on a sporadic schedule, revolved around the fictitious gay brother of Rommel, known as The Desert Peach, commander of the 469th Halftrack, Gravedigging and Support Unit of the Afrika Korps. (example)

  106. 106.

    NotMax

    And I see now that wasn’t the first to bring up the Peach. Scads of people of exquisite taste at this here watering hole.

    For the comic book non-savvy, Donna Barr was also responsible for some fine, fine comics about, for all intents and purposes, Amish centaurs, Stinz.

    A crossover that never wert: Stinz and Rommel.

  108. 108.

    redshirt

    I frown because I was riffing on a comedy theme about elite east coast colleges and wow some people took it too seriously.

    If you think I seriously think famous people can only go to Harvard, you have me wrong.

  109. 109.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: This is a very long discussion. In short, however (and because if I don’t go lie down I’m going to go “thunk” onto my keyboard”…), it has depended on a combination of the time period and the society. This includes the US. At different times and in different parts of the US the point was rehabilitation. At others penance and to make amends, hence the term penitentiary. At others, like now, it was pure incarceration for crime control: get the offender off the streets and in a controlled environment where they can’t do anyone any more harm. And even though we pay lip service to rehabilitation, we are still firmly pursuing crime control.

    In other places and in other times the focus has been different. When I lived in Scotland I was told that the purpose of prison in Scottish Law was to punish debtors, not for crime control nor for rehabilitation.

    I’m going to leave it here, but you might want to check out the following:
    http://www.amazon.com/Plague-Prisons-Epidemiology-Incarceration-America/dp/1595588795/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459227831&sr=1-1&keywords=prisons
    http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Prison-Practice-Punishment/dp/0195118146/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459227922&sr=1-1&keywords=history+of+prisons
    http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595586431/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0Z69TC7ZZFWARS0H0RP1

    I’ll see if I can find my transcription of my Dad’s criminology and criminal justice lecture notes on prisons and incarceration. If I find them, I’ll post them.

  113. 113.

    Prescott Cactus

    @redshirt:

    You tell me. I have no experience in the matter.

    Norway: Their police hasn’t shot anyone in ten years. Criminals are housed in cabins, like group homes on farms. Given tasks. Illinois quit the death penalty after having given hall passes to heaven to many were later found innocent. Gov was looking for cover for other misdeeds to IIRC.

    I’m all over the place on this. Cuz was a Chi cop killed (w/partner) on a routine traffic stop of two gents out on parole, who had guns and decided they didn’t want to go back in the slam.

    Sidenote: Chicago names their police horses after officers killed in the line of duty.

  115. 115.

    sm*t cl*de

    the fictitious gay brother of Rommel, known as The Desert Peach,

    The Return of the Pink Panzer?

  120. 120.

    Soylent Green

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Try to pass legislation that disarmed Federal law enforcement officers in the Department of the Interior (which deals with everything that is outside…)

    Well, no, not everything. The 188 million acres in the National Forest System belong to the Department of Agriculture, not to Interior, which has the Bureau of Land Management’s 264 million acres, and the national parks and monuments (80 million), and the wildlife refuges (307 million, mostly in Alaska). Grand total of federal public lands = about 840 million acres, or 1.3 million square miles.

    To be divided equally between Koch Industries and the Bundy family.

  121. 121.

    sm*t cl*de

    @Peale:

    I really did think I was the only one with a Desert Peach collection. Phooey.

    I did not know of this thing before, but obvious joke was obvious.

  123. 123.

    Jewish Steel

    the Erwin Rommel School of Law

    You magnificent bastard, I read your book!

    ETA: @Citizen_X: Fair play to you, you got there first.

  124. 124.

    Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)

    I am not a lawyer but I am staying at a cheap hotel at the moment so . . .

    My favorite part of the Rommel School of Law is down near the end where it explains the evils of pork. If you have any doubts about their legal abilities you really need to read that section, it will set you straight!

  125. 125.

    sherparick

    @Prescott Cactus: But still remains a NAZI General who did his best to help Hitler win the war even as the regime killed millions of innocents. It is LOL funny that these so called “Freedom Lovers” create a grifter on-line “law” school named after a NAZI General. The Onion cannot make stuff like this up.

  126. 126.

    Jerry

    If I was a more cynical man, I would swear that those threatening (I guess?) letters sent to the law enforcement officials (as found in the Redacted Threats PDF) were from people using Scott Pakin’s complaint generator. Which, if it’s still online, should always be used to troll your friends and enemies alike.

  127. 127.

    Matt

    a lot of “Constitutional Sheriffs” are going to feel pressure to protect local militants

    Or put another way: a lot of “Constitutional Sheriffs” are going to have to decide whether they’re going to uphold their oath to the public or escalate from talking sedition to actually doing it…

  129. 129.

    Bill_D

    @LAO:

    People have got to stop using that framing! Those lands never, ever, ever were under state control because those states didn’t exist yet. The states gave up any *potential* rights to those lands as a condition of admission, but they never actually had those lands. When we refer to federal lands being “returned to the states” we’re buying into a lie, supporting the *framing* of those who are lying about what really happened, and giving aid and comfort to efforts to forever destroy our magnificent system of federal public lands.

  131. 131.

    E

    I know it does not play into our favored narrative about how much we hate and love to mock the Bundys, and hence how much we support the feds and their brave resistance to these thugs, but I do not understand why the Forest Service’s recent decision to *increase* the number of cows Adrian Sewell can graze. He is the axe-swinging, Bundy-loving rancher who was the only one to heed Bundy’s call to tear up his public-lands grazing permit and refuse to recognize federal authority over his permit. The Forest Service’s response was not to boot his ass off the land but to make grazing there more profitable for him.

    http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2016/03/28/forest-service-increases-rogue-ranchers-use-by-70-for-2016/

  132. 132.

    daryljfontaine

    Finding a fairly complete run of Desert Peach at a local F/SF convention in the early 90s was one of my better loot hauls at the time. They’re still taking up space in a longbox somewhere, probably my office.

    D

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