Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

Sometimes the world just tells you your cat is here.

Hey hey, RFK, how many kids did you kill today?

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Not all heroes wear capes.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you do not.

The fight for our country is always worth it. ~Kamala Harris

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the gop

Innocent people do not delay justice.

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

People really shouldn’t expect the government to help after they watched the GOP drown it in a bathtub.

Let me file that under fuck it.

Too little, too late, ftfnyt. fuck all the way off.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

“A king is only a king if we bow down.” – Rev. William Barber

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Republicans do not trust women.

You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / More Presidential Primary Town Halls!

More Presidential Primary Town Halls!

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Governor Kasich is on now. Donald Trump at 8 EDT. Secretary Clinton at 9 EDT. Senator Sanders at 10 EDT. Chuck Todd is doing the first hour, then Chris Matthews, and then Dr. Maddow for the last two.

Sorry I’m late again, I’m fighting off a nasty head cold.

Here’s the Live Feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXak3ivYUQQ

Reader Interactions

274Comments

  3. 3.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MomSense: Mild fever, feel a bit washed out, but the real unpleasantness is that my head feels like its being squeezed in a vice while someone is pumping up its internal pressure at the same time.

  5. 5.

    Adam L Silverman

    @CaseyL: Never. Apparently Sartre was wrong: Hell is not other people that you can’t ever avoid and get away from. Its a US presidential election. Apparently they are timeless too. Who knew?

  7. 7.

    guachi

    Hell is a Presidential Primary that never ends.

    That said, I’m actually going to record/watch this one.

    Why no Cruz?

  10. 10.

    LAO

    Hope you feel better Adam. And there’s not enough tea in China for me to watch more Republican presidential anything.

  17. 17.

    mclaren

    Thomas Frank on “What has gone wrong with the Democratic party.” 18 March 2016.

    Unleash that vitriol, do-nothing know-nothings. Make sure you respond to reasoned criticism of the status quo with f-bombs and name-calling. Offer no ideas for improving the state of the American polity, and provide no facts or logic to suggest productive changes in policy for Democratic candidates or the Democratic party as a whole.

  18. 18.

    StellaB

    No Ted Cruz? That’s okay. I can’t even watch him with the sound turned off.

    I’m retired and my hobby is learning languages. I like to listen to the news because news announcers’ speech is always clear and easy to understand. Every European and Latin American station that I listen to talks about goddamn Donald Trump. I was listening to a new broadcast about DT from Senegal yesterday. The whole f’ing world is talking about the situation and laughing their asses off.

  21. 21.

    Cermet

    As I never tried of saying – Vitamin D has been PROVEN to reduce the chances of getting a cold or flu and has been shown to reduce the severity when one does get ill. Also, reduces the chances of getting many cancers (and for woman, a major reduction in breast cancer!). Get your Vit D blood levels up to 50 – 70 ng/dl!

  22. 22.

    mclaren

    @LAO:

    Watching the Republican primaries makes me suspect I’ve been drinking tea with ergot fungus in it. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump suddenly sprouted the head of a giant mantis, climbed the wall, and bit another candidate’s head off with his mandibles.

  23. 23.

    WaterGirl

    We are having rain here that just won’t quit, and it looks like we’re at nearly 100% chance of rain for the entire upcoming 24 hours, too. My pup is jumpy and the kitties are hiding.

    I am consoling myself with the hope that the several pounds of grass seed i put down last summer and fall – that never came up no matter how much I watered and willed it to grow – might actually grow come up now.

  24. 24.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @LAO: Like we used to say about one of the more difficult lawyers I used to work for: He went to charm school and they asked him not to come back after the first day.

  25. 25.

    JMG

    Frank’s whole deal is to deny that white racism is a thing. It’s all about the legitimate grievances of the white working class which Democrats have ignored. They haven’t, of course, but it’s another case of actual politicians never measure up to the requirements of the analysts.
    I was a sportswriter for my working life. It’s as if I wrote, “the problem with the Red Sox is that they don’t have Ted Williams batting third anymore, or Babe Ruth pitching.”

  26. 26.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: @BillinGlendaleCA: Are we thinking that Cruz or Trump is the 2016 candidate who used the DC Madam’s service back in the day? I think maybe both. Or do we think Bill Clinton?

    Has that been discussed here on BJ today? I read about it at Benen’s place earlier today.

  29. 29.

    LAO

    @BillinGlendaleCA: your “where in the world is Ted Cruz” answer was much better than mine. I’m feeling schooled.
    And yeah, the most charmless lawyers I’ve meet in my career are federal prosecutors. Not all, but an alarming percentage of them.

  31. 31.

    WaterGirl

    @BillinGlendaleCA: Oh, I like that one! Consider it stolen.

    In return, I could share with you the time honored trick of inserting the middle initial F. into the name of anyone you seriously dislike who is in a position of power or authority. Most people never catch on, but it can be quite satisfying.

  32. 32.

    Aleta

    @BillinGlendaleCA: That is spurious slander. Those rumors of Ted’s so-called affairs will be proved false when the DC Madam phone records are released to show Ted is a sex worker.

  36. 36.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @JMG: That always baffled me from Jim Webb, too. Democrats must pay attention to the concerns of my people! Scots-Irish Appalachians don’t have problems with health insurance? Trickle down economics works in West Virginia and central PA? Their roads and bridges fix themselves? Women there don’t mind being paid less? Cheaper, cleaner energy doesn’t work in their houses?

  38. 38.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: I never thought it was you, not even for a moment! The Baud! would never need to pay for “attention” from a professional.

  39. 39.

    Redshift

    @WaterGirl: Cruz seems more likely to me, because he was living in DC at the time. Trump certainly visited DC, but not frequently, to my knowledge. Bill Clinton doesn’t seem to fit with the lawyer’s contention that it’s more important for voters to know about now than in the past.

  42. 42.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Trump and Tweety together has the potential for a level cringe-inducement not seen since the original Office, but I’m still not gonna watch.

  43. 43.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: I want it to be all of the republicans.

    Even if you showed me video, I wouldn’t believe it was Sanders. Or Hillary. If it was Trump, which I can easily believe, I wonder if there was a notation of “small hands” next to his name.

  45. 45.

    WaterGirl

    @Redshift: Very interesting! I could also see Trump getting involved if that’s what all the popular kids were doing at the time. He’s an insecure slime of a man masquerading as a confident powerful man a hate spewing bully.

  48. 48.

    Redshift

    @LAO:

    i want it to be Ted but I’m pretty sure he was in Texas at the time she operated.

    You may get your wish:

    Between 1999 and 2003, he was the Director of the Office of Policy Planning at the Federal Trade Commission, an Associate Deputy Attorney General at the United States Department of Justice, and domestic policy advisor to George W. Bush on the 2000 George W. Bush presidential campaign.

    (via Wikipedia.) The article on the scandal is a little unclear, but seems to say she was caught in 2006, and had been operating for 13 years, so Ted’s time in DC easily fits that time frame.

  49. 49.

    LAO

    @WaterGirl: I had a good friend, who used to utilize the service of some expensive ladies, and he explained to me that it wasn’t the sex he was paying for but to ensure that they left.
    He was a super classy guy!

  50. 50.

    mclaren

    @JMG:

    It’s easy to make this criticism, but the “white racism is the root of the Democratic party’s problem” offers the opposite of this fallacy. It’s sensible to say that economic inequality can’t explain all of the Democratic party’s problems today. It’s equally sensible to say that white racism can’t explain all of the Democratic party’s problems today.

    People who emphasize the role of the Southern Strategy in the rise of the current pathological Republican party make an important point. These same people tend to minimize the decline of unions and the destructive effects of “free trade” (AKA limitless corporate power, esp. with the TPP corporate power that overrides the power of national governments) and automation + algorithms + Big Data + robots in the rise of the current pathological Republican party.

    Multiple problems explain the rise of the Republicans and the decline of the Democrats. We could also cite the destructive effect of Fox News, which is really something unique to America and positively Leni-Riefenstahl-esque.

    When Democratic pols keep ramming through job-destroying bills like NAFTA and the TPP, I think there’s a strong case to be made that that’s as destructive to the Democratic coalition as the passage of the Civil Rights Act was.

  56. 56.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    The Janesville Police Department says a 15-year-old girl was pepper sprayed and sexually assaulted by two men outside of a Donald Trump rally yesterday in Janesville, Wisconsin.

    The incident took place in a crowd of approximately 1,000 people standing outside the Holiday Inn Express where the rally took place, the police department said in a statement.

    Party of family values.

  58. 58.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Adam L Silverman: Once you are comfortable quashing the hardworking fever, aspirin or a NSAID might help with the headache, assuming you have no contraindications for such meds. I’m of the old school approach to let a fever do its job fighting the infection, unless it reaches a dangerous level.

    IANAMD, as I believe you know, but full disclosure is important.

  59. 59.

    Adam L Silverman

    The two worst haircuts in politics are up after the break! Quick get the conditioner!!!!

  60. 60.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Adam L Silverman: But for the presence of the Great Orange Thing on TV tonight, I could just as easily see that referring to Kaisch and Chuck Todd, who both look like their grandma cuts their hair on the back porch every other Saturday

  63. 63.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: We will certainly make every effort to be. At least I know I will. : )

  64. 64.

    WaterGirl

    @Adam L Silverman: Excuse me, but I think you just did! :-)

    MomSense, hope you feel better soon! I am heading off to rest my back, but I was able to sit for maybe an hour twice today, so woo hoo (!) for that.

  66. 66.

    Cermet

    @mclaren: Sorry but that isn’t correct that these treaty’s have been the primary cause of job lost in the US. This trend start in the late 60’s as the rest of the world caught up from the damages of the war and technology automated many types of work so second and third world employee’s could be productive. Even had we refused all the treaty’s the manufacture base of this country would have tanked as fast as it did – who would buy our over priced goods when cheaper ones were being produced? The treaty’s more than likely did created more US jobs than we’d have if we didn’t have the treaty’s. Fact of life – the world cannot be fenced out. Either do what Germany does or adapt as we do. We should follow GErmany but that is another matter.

  68. 68.

    goblue72

    @CaseyL: Seriously. Jesus Christ – 4 hours of Presidential Town Halls?

    I really do think the corporate controlled media is trying torture the public so much from this endless series of town halls and debates that the voters will just give up and willingly ask for democracy to be replaced with a corporatocracy.

  70. 70.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: His time in DC working for the Bush 43 Administration overlapped. My guess is its Trump and Kasich.

  71. 71.

    jl

    Trump has the most terrific and classy endorsements imaginable.

    Commenter above is right, Trump and Matthews together is too much. Anything in the Geneva Convention that forbids that?

    Matthews loses some of his special magic when he feels (as he apparently does now) that he can’t yell and talk over somebody. Matthews can’t seem to remember that the woman whom the Trump goon assaulted was a reporter, and that has some bearing on the seriousness of the incident.

    I’m getting something to eat.

  75. 75.

    dmsilev

    @jl:

    Trump and Matthews together is too much.

    Let me guess:

    “HAAAAAH!”
    “HUUUUGEEEE!”
    “HAAAAAAH!”
    “HUUUUUGEEE!”
    etc.

  77. 77.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I don’t get Kasich’s tonsorial style either. And his outfit last night was embarrassing. I’m not saying he has to flaunt his wealth, but he should be able to get a decent hair cut and wear a decent suit to these things.

  78. 78.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Adam L Silverman: While I don’t doubt Trump has hired companions, he’s in the hotel business in Manhattan, would he really need a DC service?

    I would hurt myself laughing if it turned out Kasich was in those records

  80. 80.

    rikyrah

    @mclaren:

    Thomas Frank on “What has gone wrong with the Democratic party.” 18 March 2016.

    Phuck Thomas Frank.

    The Black Working Class gets it.
    The Latino Working Class gets it.
    The Asian Working Class gets it.
    The Native American Working Class gets it.

    The Democrats should not spend one iota of time chasing after the White Working Class that continues to vote against their own economic self-interest – election after election.

    Chase after them?

    I think not.

  81. 81.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MomSense: I hope you feel better too! There is nothing worse than having your cold/flu move into your ears and chest.

  82. 82.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: I thought about actually using that at the top of the post, but I was worried no one would click on it at all.

  83. 83.

    mclaren

    @Cermet:

    Your statement is provably false. Current estimates by reputable economists (viz., Paul Krugman) put the job losses due to NAFTA at circa 700,000.

    Read Krugman’s latest column:

    In normal times, the counterpart of a trade deficit is capital inflows, which reduce interest rates, and there’s no reason to believe that trade deficits reduce employment on net, even if they do redistribute it. But we are still living in a world awash with excess savings and inadequate demand, where interest rates can’t fall (or at any rate not much) because they’re already near zero. That is, we’re in a liquidity trap. And in that kind of world it’s true both that trade deficits do indeed cost jobs and that there are basically no benefits to capital inflows — we already have more desired savings than we are managing to invest. (..)

    I’m not saying that Trump has any idea what he’s talking about; he doesn’t. But we are living in a world where, for the time being — and maybe for a long time to come, if secular stagnation theorists are right — mercantilism makes a fair bit of sense. But then Keynes could have told you that.

    Source: “Trade Deficits: These Times are Different,” Paul Krugman, The New York Times, 28 March 2016.

  86. 86.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    WASHINGTON — (NYT) Abortion Pill Access Is Eased With New F.D.A. Rules

    In a victory for abortion rights advocates, new labeling guidelines will ease access to the pill by requiring fewer doctor visits, lengthening the period in which it can be taken and reducing the dosage.

  87. 87.

    Adam L Silverman

    @rikyrah: And the Jewish Americans get it too. Not really sure what the breakdown is between professional and working class is there, but they get it.

  88. 88.

    mclaren

    @rikyrah:

    The Democrats should not spend one iota of time chasing after the White Working Class that continues to vote against their own economic self-interest – election after election.

    Talk about a purity pony!

    “Fvck the white middle class, we Democrats are so serenely superior in our majestic magnificence that we don’t need ’em.”

    And people wonder why Democrats keep losing elections…

  89. 89.

    MomSense

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I blame my middle school student. Pretty sure that school is a giant Petri dish and I doubt those kids wash their hands. Hope you feel much better.

  90. 90.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Link at the top is inoperable, so if there’s any news out of this town hall, I guess I’ll have to catch it later on the Tube of You.

    I did see that clip of Trump and Tweety discussing abortion, with Trump weaseling around for several minutes before saying “the women should be punished” (which was before his campaign released a statement saying “Of course the women shouldn’t be punished! The wimmenz are the victims here.”)

    Anyhow, there was one moment where I wanted to just reach through the monitor screen and throttle Tweety (not for the first time, I might add) when Trump, stalling for time and a definitive noncommittal answer, did what he does so well: he pivoted and asked Tweety “Are you Catholic?” “Yes I am,” said Tweety. “Well, where do you stand? What do you think? Do you agree with the Church’s teachings on abortion, yes or no?” It was just ridiculous because it got Trump out of having to answer right away; but worse, it suddenly turned Tweety from interviewer to interviewee.

    Of course Tweety’s not a very good journalist, but he’s been in broadcasting much too long to have allowed that to happen. I was embarrassed for him.

  91. 91.

    WaterGirl

    @MomSense: My Easter trip was mostly fun, thanks for asking. The train ride was most definitely not happy for my back, but I made it through. Happy to be back home, though, where I can rest my back when I need to instead of just pushing through because I have to.

    Had a BIG scare with my kitty though. He was definitely not right when I got home. Got him into the vet that afternoon, and he is much better now. Thank god for pet insurance – 324.95 – but insurance should cover everything after the deductible. I changed his deductible from $50 to $100 in February – of course i did!!! (sigh) but I expect they will cover 224.95. I will never not have pet insurance again. I use Pet Plan and I love it.

    Feel better soon!

    I am hoping Grantchester is as fun this year as it was in season 1.

  92. 92.

    Adam L Silverman

    @MomSense: When my nephews (twins) were babies and toddlers, every time I saw them I’d get sick. I threatened to call the CDC on my brother. It was like clonebola.

  95. 95.

    rikyrah

    @mclaren:

    “Fvck the white middle class, we Democrats are so serenely superior in our majestic magnificence that we don’t need ’em.

    Uh uh uh

    I didn’t say phuck the White Middle Class.

    I said phuck the part of the White Working Class that continues to follow whatever shiny object the GOP puts out to justify them voting against their own economic self-interest.

    Don’t chase after people who would do anything to justify their own stupidity.

  96. 96.

    Wag

    @Cermet: Show me a randomized placebo controlled clinical trial demonstrating these results and I’ll believe you. Until then is say bullshit.

    Every 5-10 years a new vitamin is crowned the fountain of youth. Once the studies are complete, said vitamin is shown to be no more effective than placebo, or is actually harmful. It’s vitamin D’s turn in the limelight I’ll believe the hype once the clinical studies are complete. Until then I’ll continue to recommend vitamins for people with clinical conditions that lead to malnourishment or if there’s a famine. Otherwise, eat a reasonable diet.

  98. 98.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Yup. Same issue as with CNN last night. I don’t have a TV so I don’t have a cable account so I can’t watch their streaming election programming.

    Thanks for trying. And feel better!

  99. 99.

    mclaren

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Not really sure what the breakdown is between professional and working class is…

    Those of us with four-year college degrees account for 23% of the U.S. working population. I’m going to go out on a limb as guess that many of the Balloon-Juice front-pagers have advanced degrees as well as four-year college degrees. That knocks the percentage down to 8% of the U.S. working population.

    Think for just a moment how rarefied a group the Balloon-Juice front-pagers (or most of the commenters like us) are. If you have a masters degree or better, you’re better educated (and probably better employed) than 92% of the working population in America.

    Now just contemplate for a moment the nature of a U.S. economy that in the 1950s says “Graduate from high school and you can expect to make a good living working in a factory, enough money to raise a family and buy and house and afford a car, all on one salary and a high school diploma.” And compare with a U.S. economy in the 2010s that say: “Graduate with a four-year college degree, and you can expect to drive part-time for Uber or Lyft while pulling down zero-hours contract jobs with two other crummy McJobs, all in order that you and your wife can barely afford rent in a downscale apartment in a major American city — and you and your wife still won’t be able to afford to raise a kid or buy a house.”

    What is wrong with this picture?

    The bottom 92% of American workers (i.e., those without masters or doctoral degrees or certifications like a medical or legal license) don’t give a damn why this change happened, all they care about is that it has occurred…and it’s blown up their lives.

    Moreover, the entire shift to part-time “gig” jobs with zero hours (employer phones you each day to tell you if you’re going to come in) and no benefits is unsustainable economically. America needs a hefty tax base to be able to afford our current expenses. The tax receipts just not going to be rolling in from minimum-wage barista jobs and part-time Uber driving gigs to fund the kind of U.S. military we’ve got and the level of future social security and medicare obligations we’re going to be incurring when the boomers retire and start getting sick.

  100. 100.

    Chyron HR

    @mclaren:

    You guys are a bunch of do-nothings, so there!

    I am in awe of anyone who can successfully convince themselves that spending every day complaining in the comment section of a random blog constitutes “making a difference”.

  101. 101.

    Adam L Silverman

    Tweety’s doing a good job (my fingertips may fall of in revolt of typing that) in holding Trump’s feet to the fire on the “walk away from NATO, the Middle East, Asia-Pacific”.

  102. 102.

    Adam L Silverman

    @mclaren: I meant among Jewish Americans. It also wasn’t something I was worrying about needing an answer. I’m pretty sure I can figure it out with a quick key word search if I really wanted to.

    Thanks though.

  103. 103.

    MomSense

    @WaterGirl:

    Have you tried osteopathic manipulation for your back? It’s not chiro crack your bones. I have found it really helpful for my lower back.

    I hope kitty is much better. Poor thing. I’m glad you caught it early.

  104. 104.

    Mnemosyne

    @mclaren:

    It’s not either/or. It’s both/and. But the white working class that’s convinced that all of their economic woes are due to urban welfare recipients and illegal immigrants aren’t going to be coming back to the Democratic Party unless you promise them that, like the good old days of FDR, their skin color will guarantee them better stuff than everyone else. They’re going to cling to their Bibles and their guns and go down with the sinking ship of white supremacism.

    Remember, Brownback destroyed the economy of Kansas and got re-elected. Because the culture war is more important to them.

  106. 106.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @mclaren:

    These same people tend to minimize the decline of unions and the destructive effects of “free trade”

    The economic issues you site have played almost no part in the loss of white voters from the Democrats to the Republicans. Why? Because that loss happened in three big jumps. It happened after the Civil Rights Act. It happened during the Reagan Administration. It happened immediately after the election of Obama. In the case of the first two, this is before the Democrats had anything to do with the economic issues that upset you. In the case of the last, it happened after a blatant racially tinged event, while the most loudly branded Democratic policies would help white poor, and Republicans were trying to stop those policies. In all three cases, white voters moved to a party that was working against their interests on a much wider and deeper scale. Even if the argument that NAFTA and TPP were terrible betrayals is accepted, if the white working class were motivated by economic insecurity, voting for Republicans and supporting Republican policies would not be the solutions. The cure they sought only matches this disease of bigotry, not economic woes. But really, most of all, they jumped ship during Reagan, to Reagan, before any of the stuff you hate and while he was fucking them over as fast as possible but telling them he would fuck over blacks more.

  107. 107.

    Wag

    @mclaren:

    Really nicely said. Thanks. You get too much shit here from readers who see you name and plug their ears and shout “La la la la, I can’t hear you” at the top of their lungs rather than think about your ideas. Sometimes you’re wrong and full of it, but in general you bring a new perspective to things here.

  108. 108.

    mclaren

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yes, you have a point there. I was shocked to discover that originally, Social Security was planned to include only white folks. “Those people” were initially not supposed to get any SSI benefits. That turned out to be so unworkable and so racist it got ditched, but initially Social Security proved unpopular with much of the electorate because “those people” would get checks from the gummint along with white folks.

    Moreover, evidence now suggests that the way popular program like the G.I. Bill were administered was quite racist as well. Blacks mysteriously got declined for lots of benefits they were entitled to by various machinations like offering them housing loans but in conveniently redlined areas so that even though the loans were approved by the V.A., the banks wouldn’t extend credit to black buyers who wanted to purchase a home in that part of the city. Check out the book “When Affirmative Action Was White: An Untold History of Racial Inequality in Twentieth-Century America” by Ira Katznelson, 2005.

  109. 109.

    Cacti

    @Wag:

    in general you bring a new perspective to things here.

    The untreated ADHD perspective?

    The desperately needs to try the decaf perspective?

    The stream of consciousness ramble perspective?

  110. 110.

    Ben Cisco

    @rikyrah:

    Phuck Thomas Frank.

    The Black Working Class gets it.
    The Latino Working Class gets it.
    The Asian Working Class gets it.
    The Native American Working Class gets it.

    The Democrats should not spend one iota of time chasing after the White Working Class that continues to vote against their own economic self-interest – election after election.

    Chase after them?

    I think not.

    Quoted b/c it bears repeating.

  113. 113.

    Aleta

    @SiubhanDuinne: I believe this is the first part of DT on tonight’s town hall. (Just 30 minutes ago.) Not live, but close. Other parts will be in the same section ….

  114. 114.

    Wag

    @Cacti:

    And I’m convinced that a lot of people with ADHD use caffeine as a legal stimulant to self medicate their ADHD, so two of the examples that you use effectively cancel each other out.

  116. 116.

    MomSense

    @mclaren:

    Social Security was enacted in 1935. Domestic workers, like my grandmother, we’re not eligible to participate until 1950. I think hotel workers and others had to wait until 1954.
    My grandmother lived with us. I highly doubt she wanted to spend her golden years chasing after a couple of snot nosed kids and their friends but her check was less than $300 a month.

  117. 117.

    different-church-lady

    @JMG:

    I was a sportswriter for my working life. It’s as if I wrote, “the problem with the Red Sox is that they don’t have Ted Williams batting third anymore, or Babe Ruth pitching.”

    …while also failing to note they never won a World Series with Ted Williams playing.

  118. 118.

    Marc

    There seem to be a lot of folks here determined to claim that racism explains everything. This seems deeply ahistorical. Democrats pushed through the civil rights bills in the 1960s with plenty of white support. Whites weren’t less racist in the 1960s than they are today, but they were substantially more liberal. I’m seeing a lot of very determined revisionism.

    And, again, even if you think that racism explains everything – what do you do? It seems that a lot of people just think that this ends the conversation – you’ve lost a lot of people because they’re evil, there is no chance to change their minds, and there is no point in even trying. In what world is this good politics – or the right thing to do? And, for that matter, why lump together a group that has huge regional differences – the politics of poor whites in the south are very different from those in other areas. Democrats can, and do, get plenty of working class white votes in the Midwest and Northeast.

    I’d say that people can be called to the better or worse aspects of themselves depending on culture, leadership, and circumstances. So you try to understand people, not demonize them, and you try to reach them while maintaining your own core values.

  120. 120.

    WaterGirl

    @MomSense: I haven’t tried that, but it may be something to think about. I see a deep muscle therapist every two weeks – I have since I had an accident with a semi in the 90s. That generally keeps me in pretty good shape, but my back got seriously messed up this summer, when the person I see was gone for 8 weeks. That took a few months to recover from, but I was almost back to normal. Then it started again a month or so ago. I’ve seen my regular person and I went to the the chiropractor 3 times. I am a lot better than I was a month ago, but I have a ways to go.

    Didn’t help when I woke up the other morning and my kitty was sleeping with all his weight directly on my ribs. That kind of set me back a bit. :-( I’ll see how it goes this week, but I may be asking you about osteopaths next week. :-)

  121. 121.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Marc:

    Democrats pushed through the civil rights bills in the 1960s with plenty of white support.

    True, but the backlash created fertile ground for the southern strategy. Quite a few white folk saw the unrest of the mid to late 60’s as a failure of the civil rights acts of the mid 60’s.

  123. 123.

    JMG

    The civil rights legislation of the 60s only passed because of the Cold War. A majority of people believed we were in an ideological clash of civilizations and recognized we could hardly be the paragons of freedom if we denied basic rights to some citizens for the color of their skin. Cold War’s over, and racism came back strong. Polling shows a majority of Trump voters believe they’re the ones facing discrimination, simply because they don’t get to go to the head of the line because they’re white. Frank is a wise fool. These people don’t give a fuck about trade policy. That’s just something the elite makes up in order not to admit white racism is still a powerful ( but not AS powerful) force in our society.

  124. 124.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Wag: You do understand that he or she misunderstood my question, which was not really sure the percentage breakdown between professional and working class among Jewish Americans, and then proceeded to try to answer this question that I didn’t ask and he or she misunderstood anyway in more than three very long and detailed paragraphs? I’ve got a joint doctorate, two masters, and bachelors. I know the difference between professional and working class.

  126. 126.

    Gvg

    It’s not that racism explains everything, it’s that it explain’s a lot, and it’s been demonstrated with camera phones and Internet viral video’s quite clearly, recently, frequently and then the damn GOP congress actions, plus police in some places and it’s time to act on it while lots of people are thinking about it. I am a cheerful outlook white woman who was raised liberal but couldn’t know a lot of these details without those camera phones and other events. It was an occasional story with statistics before. Now many of us know. Group attention span wanders because the world just has so much going on. I sense that the right time to bend that arc of justice a little better might be real soon. Certain justice reforms could go a long way.
    The world has a nearly infinite supply of worthy problems. Comparing which problem is more important is a distraction that gets used to prevent action on any. Do some law reforms, justice department, police, drug policy it’s all related. Economics is another problem. It’s a newer public cause rising too. It’s important too, we’ll need to do that too. I hope we don’t get tricked into doing neither.

  127. 127.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Democrats have won the popular vote in 5 of the last 6 presidential elections.

    I’ll repeat:

    Democrats have won the popular vote in 5 of the last 6 presidential elections.

    We have a black president, gay marriage, healthcare, normalized relations with Cuba, detente with Iran and our next president is going to be a woman (eta and we’re about to flip control of the Supreme Court).

    Oh, when, oh when will our long national nightmare of progress end?!?

  131. 131.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Baud:

    What happened?

    If I understand correctly, the sequester happened. And consulting is not as time consuming as employment by an entity of whatever variety. I hope ( and am certain, in fact) that Adam’s consulting is more lucrative than mine.

  133. 133.

    Thoughtful David

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    Bingo, and well said. McLaren is partially right, in that the economic woes of the lower class are a factor, but is not recognizing that those suffering white working class folks have turned to racism as a solution. The chain of cause and effect is very messy in all of this, but racism seems to be the node that everything else passes through.

  134. 134.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    Shorter Barney Frank: Sanders is a fraud.

    Chotiner: So it seems like you’re saying Bernie’s voters have a slightly unrealistic sense about the political process. And that this is driven—

    Barney: I didn’t say slightly.

    Barney was my Congressman for many years, so I guess that makes him an Establishment hack for $hillary.

  137. 137.

    different-church-lady

    @Gvg:

    It’s not that racism explains everything, it’s that it explain’s a lot

    It most certainly explains racism. Which is a thing we still have a copious amount of in this country, on both the systemic and the individual levels.

  140. 140.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: Just thinking the same thing, really disappointing.

    ETA: HRC just pointed out that there really isn’t much substantive difference between the three R candidate, even Drumpft. Good.

  141. 141.

    Mike J

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    So it seems like you’re saying Bernie’s voters have a slightly unrealistic sense about the political process. And that this is driven—

    While arguing at the caucus, here’s something I discussed with the Berners: We had been discussing the Republican race, and how Cruz was actually scarier than Trump. Why is he scary? He might actually be able to accomplish some of what he wants. And that’s why I want Hillary instead of Bernie.

  142. 142.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: Has she asked about the EMAIL? I learned from Joe of the Morning and Mika that a St. Ronald appointed Senior Federal Judge agreeing with Judicial Watch is the most important thing ever.

  144. 144.

    Mike J

    @Mike J: Grrr, only the first part is a quote (and it’s a quote of a quote). The second part is me, but FYWP editing is still fucked up.

  150. 150.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: When my teammates and I first linked up with our Brigade Combat Team, for the first couple of days everyone thought I was a medical doctor because the other members of the senior staff were calling me Doctor or Doc (it took me a while to get them to call me Adam). And they kept telling me about their medical issues hoping I’d help them.

  152. 152.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Mike J:

    No one has had more experience than dealing with Bernie Fucking Sanders than Barney, who has said for 20 years now that his holier than thou shtick makes him impossible to deal with and to get anything accomplished, even the things that Bernie likes. No one can stand Bernie, which is why Bernie’s bullshit about getting superdelegates to switch to him is unicorns shitting ice cream flavored sparkle puppies.

  156. 156.

    Thoughtful David

    @Gvg:

    I agree, and disagree with Marc. Racism is very heavily involved in all of this. It used to be that the Republican establishment was able to keep it contained and under wraps. They were able to get all of the racist votes without acknowledging the source.
    What’s different is that Trump has pulled aside the curtain, and allowed the racists that were there all along to let their freak flags fly. I don’t think there are more of them now than before, but they’ve discovered their champion and are giving him full-throated support.

  163. 163.

    TS

    @mclaren:

    Those of us with four-year college degrees account for 23% of the U.S. working population.

    Just making sure that everyone knows mclaren has a 4 year college degree

  170. 170.

    LAO

    @Adam L Silverman: shhh. This is not a safe place to discuss …business. I can tell you that your absence was noted.

    @Omnes Omnibus: I find it difficult not to poke fun at the rampant anti-semitism burbling under the surface of the Trump supporters.

  173. 173.

    raven

    @Adam L Silverman: When I was doing my dissertation research my participants were fascinated by the idea that a GED grad was going to be a Doctor! I made sure they knew I wasn’t going to be THAT kind of Doc!

  174. 174.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @LAO:

    burbling under the surface of the Trump supporters

    I don’t know that I’d call endorsements from neo-nazi’s bubbling under the surface.

  177. 177.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Omnes Omnibus: Of course. Says the apocryphal Jewish woman. Or is it aprocyphally? My brain is sprained and I need a pedantic ruling. I’m quite certain that I’ve come to the right place for that.

  178. 178.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    this interview with Maddow is a strong performance by HRC so far. Maddow spent far too much time on process (delegates and super delegates and why don’t caucus goers like you?)

  182. 182.

    Adam L Silverman

    @raven: I had a front line supervisor in 2014 who had gone from NCO to PhD and from there ultimately to Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense towards the end of his career. At the time I worked for him he was a department chair.

    I’ve found that if people want the credential and the education and knowledge that go with it, they will find a way.

  183. 183.

    Monala

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: A comment I read this morning made a very good point: when you read or hear interviews with people who have worked with Sanders or Clinton personally, including their Senate colleagues and their underlings in various positions they’ve held – the folks who work with Sanders tend to think he’s a jerk, even if they like the things he stands for. With Clinton, it’s the opposite – they tend to like her, very much.

  184. 184.

    Kropadope

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    which is why Bernie’s bullshit about getting superdelegates to switch to him is unicorns shitting ice cream flavored sparkle puppies.

    ‘I think this really will come down to who wins more votes. That person’s almost certain to be Hillary, but if Bernie miraculously passes her and the superdelegates use their influence to throw the nomination to Hillary, they’re playing with fire while blindfolded.

    Also, why do people think it’s such a compelling argument that most people in Congress don’t like Bernie while Congress has 15% approval from the American people? First of all, his colleagues dislike him so much they made him chair of a committee and have adopted many of his ideas into legislation. And if they, really, TRULY hate him that much, he should wear it as a badge of honor. I wish he could add Alan Grayson to the list of congressfolk who hate him.

  187. 187.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: I actually liked, or at least didn’t mind, that question, cause it’s one she’s going to have to answer a lot

  188. 188.

    LAO

    @Omnes Omnibus: not really one point, but I always refer to myself as a WASH (white, Angelo Saxon, Hebrew).

    And yes, WASPs are the easiest to lure in. Bahahah!

  195. 195.

    Wag

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Yes. I understand that. But reading what mcclaren said as a stand alone comment, it was perfectly sensible. Coming into the comments an hour after the thread began one is forced to either read everything through start to usher and never really catch up, or to jump intowards the end and try and make sense of it all

    Neither approach is perfect, but looking at the broad outlines of arguments is sometimes enlightening as well. The broad strokes that mcclaren makes are correct and in no way contradict what you are saying. There is too much emphasis placed on nuances and too little emphasis placed on the underlying agreements.

  196. 196.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @efgoldman: Well, shit; I got lost again. It’s been that kind of week.

    If I tell the story (SFW) of how I was most recently a bad, bad woman, will that qualify as amusing? LAO, I’m looking at you.

  198. 198.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Kropadope:

    Also, why do people think it’s such a compelling argument that most people in Congress don’t like Bernie while Congress has 15% approval from the American people? First of all, his colleagues dislike him so much they made him chair of a committee and have adopted many of his ideas into legislation.

    You’re making the logically fallacious argument of the personal to the general, where Sanders “popularity” is concerned – it matters, because the whole job of president is to convince, cajole, act in good faith and listen to other points of view, then build consensus. Bernie has never done that, and at 74, he’s not going to change his whole shtick. Joe Lieberman was hated, and he was a committee chair too. That’s seniority, not admiration or respect. What ideas has he had put into legislation? Barney is saying that’s not what the record shows, and why he’s asking the media to do their jobs re Bernie’s record. In fact, he’s saying that anything legislatively was accomplished in spite of Bernie.

  199. 199.

    Kropadope

    @Davebo: Ted Cruz has plenty of problems, the fact that not even the Republican caucus likes him doesn’t rate very high. This despite the fact that there is a vast difference in scale. Also, Bernie’s at least competent and wants to do things to help the American people. The reasoning I keep hearing come up behind Bernie’s colleagues’ dislike for him has to do with something something sanctimony over campaign finance issues. He points out the corruption in the system and doesn’t do enough to help people raise money. Frankly, I think the problem is that Congressional Democrats need to get their fucking priorities straight.

  201. 201.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Kropadope:

    The fact is, Bernie’s analysis of the banking system is too simplistic and lacking any deep understanding, but calling everyone and everything corrupt is how one sells one’s bullshit to the marginally informed on such matters.

    I guess we can add Barney Frank to the quickly growing list of the enemies of the revolution.

  202. 202.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: I was having a discussion (of disagreement) about the, let’s say utility, of carrying a concealed weapon with a believer. This man was certain that he – and all those around him in the event of an unfortunate situation with an armed aggressor – was much safer with a concealed weapon on his person. I suggested I could demonstrate that his assertion was incorrect.

    I used an exercise taught to me by an LEO. I told the believer that if he could retrieve his car keys from wherever he carried them before I could get across the room (maybe 30-35′) to accost him, he’d win. He did not. The part where I was very, very bad was when I took them away from him once he got them out of his pocket. That’s how Marshall, my LEO (LT level + 2 Gulf tours of unknown – or I’ve forgotten – rank) friend does it with men with men, though he lets women keep their keys as the point is made with enough emphasis. But I suspect it was unnecessarily humiliating for the man in question when I did it.

    I’m not sorry.

  204. 204.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kropadope: So you don’t think that the ability to inspire affection and loyalty in those you work with is a valuable skill that a president might find useful?

  205. 205.

    Adam L Silverman

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): That’s a common martial arts training scenario. The distance used to be 21 feet. Its since been expanded to 33 feet. One of the things I’ve always taught is that if you’re carrying any weapon – knife, expanding baton, handgun – you’re going to be unlikely to get it out (unlimbered) and on target if you’re being charged by someone and they’re within 33 feet.

    That said there are other scenarios where concealed carry may, and I emphasize may, have utility. And the may is because of a number of variables, not all of which are under the control of the carrier.

    I often say that if I get attacked, I’m not looking to make things look martial arts movie clean. If I’ve got clean access the first strike is a kick to the groin. The next strike is to incapacitate. Its not a regulated competition, it is, if it becomes necessary, unfortunately about survival.

  206. 206.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: That interview’s a hoot. “I’m not a drama critic”. I think Barney couldn’t remember if he took his curmudgeon pill that morning, and accidentally took a double dose.

  207. 207.

    PsiFighter37

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: +1 to all this.

    Seriously, if the media gave him all the attention that Bernie and his supporters complain about not getting, they would find a man who has a great history of being angry and little else.

    What did Bernie do before he was elected as mayor of Burlington anyways? I have read that he was a carpenter, or something to that effect, but it honestly seems like he was a hippie that wasn’t doing all that much until he barely got elected to office.

  209. 209.

    LAO

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): love it, you should never be sorry for schooling an ammosexual.

    I’ve told this story before. One of my brother’s is a federal LEO and 2 years ago or so, he was forced to draw his weapon and fire at deranged guy who would not drop a gun. Thank whomever, because it all turned out ok, but he missed! From about 12 feet away. My brother is a terrific shot on the range. But in the field, under stress, a thing can happen.

    In his defense, the guy was holding the gun out away from his body, and my brother claims he fell victim to “weapons focus lock”.

  211. 211.

    Davebo

    @Kropadope:

    The fact is, Bernie hasn’t been very effective in the House and Senate. Now perhaps he’d be more effective as president. He’s certainly exceeded expectations as a candidate.

    But as a congressman, he has been fairly impotent.

  212. 212.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Chyron HR: I think you would enjoy the Chotiner/Frank interview
    Well, it’s got good acting and things like that.

    BF:I’m not a drama critic. Part of the problem is there is a tendency in the media to demonize politics to the extent that it’s become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether with Jon Stewart or House of Cards or The Big Short. It basically tells people, “Everybody stinks, they’re all no good,” and that’s one of the reasons people don’t participate.
    IC: I think that part of the argument that people like Sanders would make is that, the financial system is corrupt fundamentally and that we don’t want to merely make it slightly more stable—
    BF: Well if that’s the case it’s even dumber than I thought. The financial system is people lending money to other people so they can do things. I do think that he overstates it when he says, “they’re all corrupt.” It’s simply not true. And by the way, when it comes to specifics, the only specific I have heard is Glass-Steagall, which makes very little change in the finance system.
    I think he gets a pass from the media. Other than Glass-Steagall, what did he propose in 2009 and 2010 when he was a senator when we were dealing with this? The answer is nothing. Why haven’t you looked at his record?

    I can’t put in the Slate link for some reason. I blame Saletan.

  213. 213.

    redshirt

    @LAO: I’m fairly certain that along with my ninja training and super sense of timing, I’ll be able to dodge most bullets cuz frankly, in the real world, people’s aim sucks.

  216. 216.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Monala:

    I’ve heard the same thing many times, too. One of the job descriptions of president is to be able to draw on a reservoir of good will – kind of like the current occupant has been able to do to great effect.

  217. 217.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: That’s what the Y Chromosome Union has told us we are allowed to say. No more, no less.

  222. 222.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: Genetically I’m automatically enrolled in the Y Chromosome union. Beyond that if you needed to know, you already would.

  229. 229.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Adam L Silverman: That sounds so much better! TO be fair, I’ve got a pretty long stride for a not tall person, because I’m shortwaisted and my hip socket is about 3’1.5″ – not that I obsess about such things. I know this because we used to measure jump heights against my hip.

    @Omnes Omnibus: By some of the spectators, I believe it was. By the ammosexual, it’s doubtful. But I’m not certain there is an effective demonstration of the fallacy of a religious belief.

  230. 230.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @PsiFighter37:

    All accounts of people who have worked with him or had to report on him, can’t stand him. He’s a gadfly which is what the voters in Vermont like, but scolding is not a plan.

  233. 233.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Well, but here he seems to agree more with Sanders on trade:

    The one thing that disappoints me is on trade. I think he bought into the orthodoxy that says trade is good for everybody. What he should have said is, “here’s the deal I will support for trade, I want fast track, but only as part of a package which would raise the minimum wage and re-energize unions and restore the legal rights of unions, and do a massive construction program.” That was a fundamental error, and I don’t understand why he didn’t do that,

    I don’t know if Frank likes or doesn’t like Bernie Sanders but of course Frank will tend to defend his own work on Wall Street reform.

  234. 234.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Kay:

    I think Barney’s right on that too – it’s one of the least liberal things Obama has done. But his criticisms of Bernie go way back. This Bangor Daily News article could have been written last week.

  236. 236.

    Soylent Green

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Maddow spent far too much time on process (delegates and super delegates and why don’t caucus goers like you?)

    Thus completes Rachel’s relocation to a gated community in the Village.

  238. 238.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @redshirt:

    Yeah, she was responsible for running Burlington College into the ground, then got a golden parachute. Then there was the low level nuclear waste dump in New Mexico that poisoned poor latinos. But, those things don’t count because of the rules of causality that warp around the White Wizard of Burlington.

  239. 239.

    Kay

    Also Frank is out of it so maybe he doesn’t care, but how long are Democrats planning on running on blaming their voters for not coming out?

    And I’m particularly unimpressed with people who sat out the Congressional elections of 2010 and 2014 and then are angry at Democrats because we haven’t been able to produce public policies they like. They contributed to the public policy problems and now they are blaming other people for their own failure to vote, and then it’s like, “Oh look at this terrible system,” but it was their voting behavior that brought it about.

    “Voting behavior”. Two years after the last midterm and the political professionals in the Democratic Party are still blaming voters for losses. What possible upside do they see in this? Say they WIN this argument with their voters and voters surrender- guilty as charged.Then what?

  241. 241.

    redshirt

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yeah I got inside dirt on the Burlington College situation and it seemed terrible. Obviously I was hearing this from an affected party so it might not be the whole objective truth, but just the manner in which she conducted herself sounded awful.

  243. 243.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Kay:

    It’s true – they don’t come out to vote in midterms. I don’t know who else to blame for voters not voting, then standing around later, complaining.

  244. 244.

    Kropadope

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    but calling everyone and everything corrupt is how one sells one’s bullshit to the marginally informed on such matters.

    That’s not what he does, though. He points out, correctly, that the system is corrupt, particularly with respect to campaign finance. Even though he works really hard to avoid doing it, even he feeds the monster by, for example, doing the DSCC annual fundraiser. I’ve never heard him lay claim to personal perfection.

    What Frank’s and your argument does is demonstrate a frightening lack of nuance, a thin skin, and/or faux indignation on behalf of protecting the death grip that moneyed interests have on our democratic institutions. Basically trying to sell bullshit to marginally informed voters.

  245. 245.

    eemom

    @Kay: @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    Um, yeah, I vehemently agree with Conster, cuz frankly, there is nothing I hate more than people who don’t vote, EVERY time. Nothing, not even republitards — who, it should be noted, dumb as dirt and self-destructive as they are, at least have the fucking sense to drag their asses to the polls, EVERY TIME, because they recognize that you HAVE to do that, to get the results you want.

    If what you mean, Kay, is that Democrats need to get better at GOTV, sure. But the fact remains that anyone who doesn’t vote DOES deserve the blame.

  246. 246.

    eemom

    @Kay:

    Say they WIN this argument with their voters and voters surrender- guilty as charged.Then what?

    Maybe they’ll fucking VOTE next time.

  247. 247.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Kropadope:

    What Frank’s and your argument does is demonstrate a frightening lack of nuance, a thin skin, and/or faux indignation on behalf of protecting the death grip that moneyed interests have on our democratic institutions. Basically trying to sell bullshit to marginally informed voters.

    That’s the most projection I’ve ever read. Congratulations! How you transmit signals from so far up Bernie’s ass is the subject for another time.

  248. 248.

    Kay

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    Okay, but it is completely predictable that Frank would object to criticism of Wall Street reform. That’s his area.

    I can’t help but notice he’s very critical of the Administration on trade, which is not his area, and he also holds Congress harmless on trade and puts the entire onus on the executive branch. Fast Track was a GOP majority but plenty of Democrats voted for it. If they wanted the minimum wage and infrastructure and restored labor rights maybe they shouldn’t have rubber stamped the thing with absolutely no conditions or demands.

    You know what the sum total is of DC’s contribution to trade adjustment assistance since 1974? 2 million people. They grudingly doled out assistance to just 2 million people since 1974.

    They haven’t done anything. They all decided to just let markets work their magic, and no other developed country in the world abandoned their workforce like that in the face of such strong headwinds. Just the US.

  250. 250.

    Kay

    @eemom:

    Sorry, I’m not on board for the “scold the voters” plan. I have yet to see this brilliant strategy work. They might want to try something else, since we’re on Year Eight of stern lectures failing miserably.

    They’re the political professionals. Yelling at their voters can’t be the only plan.

  251. 251.

    Kropadope

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Way to skip the first paragraph to merely blather mindlessly about the second, but you didn’t respond to my challenge to your logic. Pointing out public corruption does not equate to calling every public servant corrupt, not even every elected public servant.

  253. 253.

    Kay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Since 1974, Omnes. I believe we have had a couple of Democratic Presidents and Congressional majorities since 1974.

    Paul Krugman is just now saying the US did nothing to mitigate the effects of a changing economy on their workforce and other countries did when this has been going on since 1974?

    You remember the TPP “debate”. ANY criticism was immediately dismissed as invalid. It’s been like that for 25 years on trade. No one was even permitted to ask if maybe this wasn’t entirely “market forces” and if maybe, perhaps, the US could do more for their own workforce. That was blasphemy. That was “pulling up the drawbridge” to quote both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. They shut down any discussion with screeching about protectionism. They posed it as either/or, trade/no trade, which was and is ridiculous and they knew it. That was never the position of fair traders.

    Now that everyone is a “fair trader” we’re all just supposed to forget the last 25 years when every elite pundit and politician was ignoring what was happening? Ted Fucking Cruz is a fair trader now because the Democrats denied there was a problem for 25 years and let Republicans seize the issue. Now I have to listen to Ted Cruz pretend he understands this, when there have been at least ten Dem Senators who are experts on it. They shouldn’t have been ignored.

  254. 254.

    Bobby Thomson

    I can’t take Frank seriously, knowing what a wingnut he was in high school. He made Kris Kobach look cosmopolitan.

  255. 255.

    Ruckus

    @Kay:
    Yelling at their voters can’t be the only plan,
    Sometimes it seem like it is.

    It could be replaced with GOTV programs. And maybe ones that are a little more effective. I did phone banking for Obama in 2008 and almost everyone I called had already been called at least once some several times. And the call sheets were being updated continuously but I think only for the lists that we saw. Other states, locations were calling the same people. It may have helped but it was wildly inefficient. Of course it was our cell phones-our dimes.

  256. 256.

    Kay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think they have to stop paying strategists and hire organizers at 32k a cycle, for 9 months. I think they should hire LOCAL organizers, particularly in red areas in the midwest and the south. They should pay people who live in these places instead of bringing people in every 4 years.

    They should hire the best local volunteer from the cycle prior the following cycle- the person who lives there. They already have their best local organizers, they just don’t hire them. They have their names and addresses. They don’t need to bring 25 year olds in from other states every 4 years.

  257. 257.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kay: And yet the US working class has not made any of this a priority. If voters don’t turn out over issues, why would politicians prioritize their issues. If you want an issue to matter to politicians, you need to show that it matters to voters.

    There is a chicken and egg aspect to this.

  258. 258.

    Kropadope

    @Omnes Omnibus: Generating more interest in non-Presidential offices. Talk to friends about how important the State House and Attorney General and other such things are. Even though most of us are aware, we could focus more on these things, read more (if one isn’t a local political junkie already). Writers and reporters chase eyeballs. More interest can hopefully produce more, better reporting. It would be too much to hope that such a thing create a feedback loop.

  259. 259.

    Kay

    @Ruckus:

    If you ran a phone bank where you live in ’08 they could pay YOU to run the phonebank the following off-year cycle. You’re experienced and you live there.

  262. 262.

    Kay

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I just can’t get behind politicians blaming voters for not voting. I think that’s a proven loser. Ordinary people (us) can do it all we want if it makes us feel better, but a long-term House member scolding voters seems insanely out of touch to me.

    Some of this is their job. I watched the Maddow interview with Clinton. For the first time I felt like I might be excited about voting for her. She was great. I think Sanders has made her a stronger candidate.

  263. 263.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kay: @Kropadope: The problem is that some of this involves wishing for a different Democratic Party. We have, right now, what we have. And shitload of what we have is because some people couldn’t be bothered to vote.

    In my view, voting is one’s duty as a citizen. I understand that circumstances and assholes can make it hard to do. And I am strongly in favor of anything that makes voting easier. I still say that one needs to participate in the process if one wants to criticize the results.

  264. 264.

    Kropadope

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I still say that one needs to participate in the process if one wants to criticize the results.

    Funny story, my Libertarian friend says just the opposite. Something about if you vote you’re enabling them or encouraging them.

  265. 265.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Kropadope: Your friend is, in my opinion, a fool. If you want a voice, demand one. If you let other people choose, what right do you have to complain?

  269. 269.

    sukabi

    @mclaren: with his tiny, tiny mandibles… (Although his lips are always pursed like the south end of a “blowout hen “)

  270. 270.

    Applejinx

    @mclaren:

    When Democratic pols keep ramming through job-destroying bills like NAFTA and the TPP, I think there’s a strong case to be made that that’s as destructive to the Democratic coalition as the passage of the Civil Rights Act was.

    Yep, though their bad luck is that they’re operating during a time where technological revolution is making freemarket capitalism an engine for replacing ALL the jobs with robots and AIs. Anywhere a computer or machine can do things more efficiently than a human, they will, rendering the wielder of the machine undefeatable by capitalist means, and it’s already happening and accelerating like mad.

    A huge amount of ‘white collar’ stuff doesn’t really require humans, or is more effectively done without them. Not to recognize that, means not being able to plan for it, and somebody’s going to have to be able to plan for it.

  271. 271.

    Applejinx

    @mclaren: This, and that college degree is going to incur a staggering amount of debt, which is unusually persistent so you can’t even go bankrupt outside of extraordinary circumstances. And going bankrupt can be important: how many times has Trump done it?

  272. 272.

    Applejinx

    @Kropadope: Oh, he does wear that dislike as a badge of honor. Ask yourself if he could’ve got as many votes ten or twenty years ago? In the Uber economy, Bernie’s ideas become relevant.

    I agree with the notion that Hillary inspires personal loyalty while Bernie’s ideas have become formative for a new Dem majority. It sounds like we need Hils with Bernie’s issues. I see no way to get that through supporting Hillary directly, and expect to contribute to Bernie… yet again… before the day is out (there’s another FEC deadline)

    I don’t like Congress. I have no problem backing someone who’s making Congress upset through continually calling them out, from the nineties and onward. I think it serves them right. Not sure how you get to ‘someone Congress loves and works with eagerly’ who doesn’t also endorse all Congress’s bullshit and enable them completely, and there’s the problem. Congress has a piss-poor approval rating for a reason.

  273. 273.

    J R in WV

    @Wag:

    I dunno, but our Family Practice Dr (who is board cert. in both Family Practice AND Gerentology) tests blood levels of Vit. D and recommends the amount of supplemental D patients need to get their blood levels of Vit. D to generally accepted levels. My physical therapist also believes that D improves bone strength. He sees a lot of patients recovering from physical injuries …

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