Today in the comments and on twitter I have learned that my beloved Rosario Dawson is public enemy #1 for insufficient fealty to Obama and I think maybe Clinton, and both forums have erupted into what I think Anne Laurie coined as a “squid cloud of butthurt.” It’s kind of amazing watching the self described pragmatics* go apeshit over people on the progressive left.
First things first- pragmatic Democrat seems to have morphed into a new meaning the last eight years. Pragmatic meant in 2008 trying to advance the ball but being realistic about what could be accomplished- for example, pushing for health care coverage for all but agreeing that there were never the votes for single-payer, and realizing that ACA was still pretty fucking good for the country. That was my understanding of it- shoot for the stars, but accept you are going to probably fall short but still be able to realize you did some good. Now, the people I see describing themselves as “pragmatic” basically mean “Hillary is better than Trump and Cruz so shut the fuck up, yo.”
At any rate, in 2008, both Obama and Clinton were center left candidates, and now in 2016, we have a center left candidate and a left-wing candidate running. Obama was never a true lefty candidate, despite the fact that so many people misidentified his nature and approach (and many continue to do so to this day), but now we have a real live lefty who is pushing issues to the left, and instead of appreciating it, a lot of Dems are freaking the fuck out.
I think it’s because so many people are so used to the Overton Window only working in one direction, to the right, that they don’t understand how this shit works. When right wing candidates used to push issues to the right before they became so fucking crazy recently that there is no such thing as a right wing but instead an amorphous blob of fucking stupid, no one on the right criticized them, they just let them do their thing as they understood it was providing them room to maneuver. But when we push issues on the left, Democrats freak the fuck out and we learn that Rosario Dawson is a witch.
It’s stupid. Let them do it. They aren’t doing any damage to Clinton (I’d argue they are solidifying her base and helping set the stage for her as a moderate in the general), they’re giving her room to maneuver in the future. If we have a million people out screaming for free college, that’s a good thing. President Clinton can then do a whole helluva lot more to help fund education while still falling short of that goal. When we have people screaming about the banks, that’s a good thing. Let the left be the left. It’s a good thing.
Least that is how I view it.
Taylor
I am amazed that this has to be spelled out.
Baud
So you’ll convince Bernie to step down if he comes back to win the nomination?
Again, you can’t ask one side in a primary fight to stand down. It’s unreasonable, especially when knock on Hillary for so long was that people weren’t excited about her.
yastreblyansky
Nailed it.
goblue72
@Baud: Shouldn’t you be hoping that they both punch each other out forcing a convention floor fight that has to find a third – *cough* Baud *cough* – candidate for the nomination?
Bobby Thomson
I can’t imagine Dawson is deep enough to care what she said. Based on the headline, it doesn’t seem worth the time to read more.
Trentrunner
David Axelrod today earlier tweeted that Sanders had (very recently) said that he would not commit to supporting HRC in the general.
What is David referring to? Can’t find any such Sanders statement anywhere…
Baud
@goblue72:
I figured that the only way that’ll happen is if the other two campaigns turn nasty. John’s “Give Peace a Chance” philosophy is undermining everything.
Amaranthine RBG
Your thinking is insufficiently aligned with that of the party, Comrade.
You need to start shutting down dissent and censoring posts that fail to highlight the charms and talents of the Dear Leader in Waiting.
goblue72
Yes but
Berniebrosskinny jean hipstersemoprogshippies! Punch, punch, punch.PhoenixRising
Yeah, as much as the W administration was an eye-opener for you, try being married and gay during that lovely time.
“Stop saying our Democrats are being bigots! They’re only outlawing your family because they HAVE to! Not because they want your child to be an orphan in Oklahoma!”
The Overton Window: how does it work? I yell at TPTB to get their boot off my neck, then if they shift their weight I try speaking loudly, and when they actually remove the fucking boot I get up and shake hands. But I can’t reach to do that with a boot on my neck.
gwangung
I’m not sure it’s fair to say it’s not doing damage given the nature of some criticisms. Attacking the Obama presidency itself and the pragmatic approach he took is not useful in my opinion.
goblue72
@Baud: Has your campaign considered hiring this guy?
SiubhanDuinne, Mob Enforcer
Pretty sure that was RedKitten. Pretty sure she won the COTY for it back in the aughts.
ETA: The more I think about it, the more I think I’m probably wrong. RK won in 2008 for a line that went something like “So Sarah Palin can see Russia from her house and that makes her a foreign policy expert? I can see the moon. Doesn’t make me a fucking astronaut, now, does it?” As for “squidcloud of butthurt,” could be AL, could be RK, could be somebody else. It’s a classic line.
Baud
@goblue72: It has now.
The People will thank me later.
WarMunchkin
We all have our roles to play, but I think the dividing line is when the “far” left (come on, it’s not even that far) has a serious shot at dethroning the “pragmatic, reasonable” (but not really) left for the nomination. In the ‘overton window’ framing, the movements are useful idiots who provide the real people actually capable of governing with a story to tell so that they can convert movements into public policy.
But in this case, the ‘useful idiot caucus’ has a candidate who is nontrivially competing with the Real Candidate, not just pushing an overton window (in their eyes) further left. That’s why Team Pragmatic is freaking out.
Or to put it more succinctly – everyone thought Bernie was doing a good job until he started winning in a slightly more threatening way.
Just Some Fuckhead
Who is Rosario Dawson?
Baud
@Just Some Fuckhead: Wait, she’s real?
Iowa Old Lady
@Just Some Fuckhead: My very question.
Truly folks, most voters don’t even know who Andrew Sullivan is, much less Rosario Dawson.
goblue72
@WarMunchkin: So the “left” are only useful for moving the conversation a wee bit, but heaven forbid they should actually win? Is that your position? (Or just your analysis?) – Actual question, couldn’t tell.
PhoenixRising
Also is anyone remotely serious pissed about any screams of rage about policy? I’m not familiar.
The screaming I’m hearing is purity trolls being assholes to one candidate–who happens to be the only woman in the race and the only remotely qualified person on either side to actually pick up the ball Obama has to let go of and move anything up the field on their issue–because she took money from the wrong rich assholes. Even though kindergarten teachers don’t HAVE any money and running for office in this great nation costs a lot of money.
But they’d rather attack, attack, attack on what are essentially personal issues (because even their Great White Hope takes PAC funds) than scream about policies they want. Which is lazy, dysfunctional and stupid.
goblue72
@Just Some Fuckhead: You’re kidding, right?
Baud
@goblue72:
I honestly didn’t know who she was. I just googled her and still don’t know. I haven’t seen anything of hers.
debbie
@goblue72:
Just heard an interview with the reporter. Amazing if it’s true.
Cacti
@Iowa Old Lady:
I’d wager that a lot more average voters know who Rosario Dawson is than Andrew Sullivan.
Just Some Fuckhead
Can someone catch me up on the drama so I don’t have to get my beautiful mind dirty? Is this really the long-predicted Battle of the Boomers or is it just the usual dickheads saying the same shit over and over to that one OCD clown who argues between physics assignments?
Poopyman
@Taylor: Thank you! It was the only thing I was going to comment on, since the concept itself seemed to be so utterly obvious.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Overton’s window to the left?
Like giving the NRA blanket corporate immunity against widows filing wrong for death suits? or like voting against the President to keep GITMO open? or like repeatedly voting against immigration reform? or like shouting down black activists asking about being murdered by cops? or like opposing reparations because it would offend republicans? or like opposing gay marriage because “it’s divisive”? or like shouting at Rachel Maddow that the minimum wage is more important than abortion rights?
looks like Overton’s window only moves to the left if you’re an angry white straight male
WarMunchkin
@goblue72: I haven’t yet decided who I’m going to end up voting for, and I flip flop weekly (as do my roommates, and everyone I know in NY). I’m just trying to say that that’s why there’s a freakout directed at the left. Nobody (on the left) would be infantilizing liberals if they had a slightly lesser share of the vote in these primaries.
@Just Some Fuckhead: She’s currently well-known for being the nurse in the Netflix Marvel shows.
And I’ll also remind everyone that Samantha Power once called Hillary a “monster” and resigned from the Obama campaign, then ended up working at State. And probably is an ideological ally of Clinton, as far as foreign policy goes.
dollared
@PhoenixRising: Gee…..that really does sound like butthurt. And nothing more.
Bobby Thomson
@Amaranthine RBG: sorry people don’t want you to repeat bullshit about haircuts. That must cut in half your number of discussion topics.
debbie
No link to what she said? I’m guessing it’s this. It does seem like something the acolytes would object to.
Fair Economist
It’s perfectly reasonable to say “Clinton isn’t being ambitious enough” or “Clinton’s proposal won’t do enough” or something like that. The problem is saying “Clinton is a Wall Street lackey who’s no better than a Republican”. That’s as absurd, and as inappropriate, as saying “Sanders is a ex-Soviet agent who wants to destroy freedom in America.”
Alex.S
People are annoyed with Rosario Dawson because she said that Obama could have done everything if he had just kept his voters mobilized. But they lost faith after two months. Also, something about Twitter — I’m not sure how that flows into organization and mobilization.
——–
I bolded the part that is really WTF.
Personally, I don’t really care that much. Getting angry over surrogates is a silly game.
———————–
I’m much more concerned about Sanders saying stuff like the Republican party would be a fringe party if only the media reported on them in the right way. Or that he’ll win over voters by convincing them that they’re voting against their own self-interests. Or that change will come when McConnell looks out the window “and see a whole lot of people saying: ‘Mitch, stop representing the billionaire class; start listening to working families”.
Oh, and none of this has anything to do with the Overton Window.
Poopyman
@Baud: Men in Black????
lamh36
Rosario Dawson is a fucking idiot..
yeah I said it.
And I dont care how hot you think she doesn’t change the fact that what she said and has been saying in the name of her support of Bernie Sanders is bullshit and stupid
But hey…hot chick said what
Whatever…she’s gettin rightly dragged or saying stupid shit JUST as Cornel West gets, just as Killer Mike gets just as DWS gets and whoever the HRC supporter who says some stupid shit too.
Sincerely
NON- BERNIE, NON-HILLARY…
PRO-DEM SUPPORTER
Lamh
Baud
@Poopyman:
I did see that! But it was a long time ago. Don’t remember her at all.
dollared
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Wow. One third true, one third exaggeration, one third wholly made up. Fair and balanced, I’d say.
Amaranthine RBG
@Bobby Thomson: Totally, Bobby T. Now tell me what you think about Rosario Dawson …
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“winning” by being five hundred delegates and 2.5 million votes behind? Okay
If Sanders campaigns by explaining how further regulation is inadequate and we need to break up the banks, that’s great (certainly an argument I’m open to). If he wants to lay out the details of his education plan, fine. If he’s not sure if any House or Senate Democrats are good enough for him to campaign for… okay. If he wants to stop calling the still all-but-certain nominee of his (for the moment) party a corrupt Wall St whore because speeches, even better.
Cacti
Cole dons his cape for his celebrity crush.
How sweet.
Mike J
@Fair Economist: I have pressed the upvote button in my mind for this comment.
Baud
@Alex.S:
I was on Daily Kos at the time. This statement is true. I just don’t blame Obama for it.
chopper
oh Jesus, rosario dawson? I know you reflexively hate clinton but come the fuck on.
Librarian
I don’t know who Rosario Dawson is either. I’ve already misread her name a few times as Richard Dawson.
Daulnay
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
We really have to get away from this left/right stuff left over from fighting Communism. We have a circular electoral picture, culture war stuff on one axis, economics on the other. Clinton is culture war liberal, economic conservative. Bernie is culture war moderate, economic liberal. Cruz is culture war conservative, economic conservative. Trump is a clown.
goblue72
@Baud: She’s this bit of amazing Latina hotness.
Her breakout role was in the controversial 1995 film “Kids” – she was 16 at the time – it was an indie drama about a group of sexually active NYC teens who spend the movie drinking, doing drugs, having sex and hanging out. The plot includes one of the teens finding she is HIV positive. Chloe Sevigny also made her debut in the film.
Dawson had major roles in Rent, Men in Black II, Grindhouse and Clerks 2. She’s had various roles in other movies over the years. Most recently, she had a recurring character in Season 1 of the TV show Daredevil.
She’s also smoking hot, which may or may not be one of the things she’s famous for.
Also too – she’s pretty left-wing. In part of consequence of growing up in the Lower East Side in an abandoned building squat.
trollhattan
@Iowa Old Lady:
I get her confused with Maya Rudolph, which is silly because one has been on Family Guy and the other on Spongebob Squarepants [smacks forehead].
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Alex.S: did she really say that about Obama. Holy shit, that’s dumb.
What I read – Dawson was using the Fox News meme, don’t vote for Clinton because she’s going to be indicted by the FBI.
What’s next saying Clinton killed Vince Foster.
Baud
@goblue72: thanks. The only one of those I’m familiar with is MiB II.
I’m not very in tune with pop culture.
Gin & Tonic
@lamh36: I don’t even know who she is. Does that make me a bad Democrat?
John Cole
@Cacti:
Let’s slow down here. You act like I only have one celebrity crush.
trollhattan
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Not exactly, she killed Vince Foster AGAIN.
Djchefron
Its OK if Sanders who have never been fully vetted can tell half truths, he can denigrate the President and his supporters go bat guano crazy but if Hillary Clinton hits back the meme is see she’s a mean one.
I want the process to play out but shouldn’t everyone know what Sanders is about?
Here are a couple of articles vetting Sanders
A Strange Love or: How Bernie Sanders Learned to Stop Worrying and Embrace the Military-Industrial Complex http://www.thepeoplesview.net/main/2016/3/28/a-strange-love-or-how-bernie-sanders-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-embrace-the-military-industrial-complex
http://www.thepeoplesview.net/main/2016/3/22/bernie-sanders-campaign-conjob-follow-the-money
And how much will you pay for Sanders unicorns
This simple calculator tells you how each presidential candidate’s tax plan affects you http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/3/25/11293258/tax-plan-calculator-2016
Baud
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
That would help move the Overton Window and give Clinton room to kill people who need killing.
WHY WON’T YOU GET WITH THE PROGRAM?
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Daulnay: humping the NRA isn’t moderate.
Imagine if Clinton voted to give the NRA blanket corporatist immunity against widows and orphans. no one would dare call it moderate.
it certainly doesn’t move overton’s window to the left.
dslak
You can tell Dawson came to her views on Obama honestly, because she really grokked Clint Eastwood’s conversation with him.
goblue72
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: I knew your insanity would show up at some point.
Kay
I don’t think the primary is hurting Clinton for the general election.
Unless they figure it out and pull off some coup and find a better candidate than Trump or Cruz, which could happen! They’re very sneaky that way :)
SiubhanDuinne, Mob Enforcer
@Just Some Fuckhead:
@Baud:
@Iowa Old Lady:
With you guys. I never heard of her until she started being mentioned in comments here.
Ampersand
@Fair Economist:
Is it okay to say “Clinton is a Wall Street lackey who’s definitely better than a Republican”?
dollared
@Djchefron: You mean the Vox Bernie Sanders tax calculator that assumes that all of Bernie’s taxes will be collected but NOBODY will get any health care? http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/03/30/ezra-klein-and-terrible-horrible-no-good-tax-calculator
Baud
@Kay:
Like who, Kay? ;-)
lamh36
@Gin & Tonic: I dont fuqn care really.
But it’s getting ridiculous that folks are defending Rosario Dawson like what she said ain’t just stupid but made no sense really.
I don’t even like HRC, but she even went there about the FBI investigating HRC…she’s an idiot…
Dont’ care what kind of Dem you are…good, bad…obtuse..you vote Dem I’m good with you.
But dont’ mean just cause you are a Dem you can’t stay stupid shit…Rosario Dawson been saying stupid shit all week.
goblue72
@dslak: If bothered to read the article you linked to, that’s not what she is saying. She didn’t agree with Eastwood, she clearly was making a partial tongue in cheek comment about Eastwood, and saw the whole thing through the lens of an actor doing an improv piece.
eemom
Interesting how some folks unquestioningly swallow the CW that Bernie is a leftier lefty than Hillz. Kind of depends on the issue.
WarMunchkin
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I wasn’t careful with my words, and I should have been more so. Ibread of using the word winning, I should simply have said offering slightly more competition than expected from a left wing candidate.
I don’t think the point is lost that Bernie was awesome when he wasn’t viewed as a viable candidate. Back then, he was cool, talked about income inequality, raised awareness and affably deflected news stories about Clinton.
All of the donor stuff is a 2008 rehash, which itself is a 2004 rehash.
Cacti
@dslak:
Best descriptor I’ve read of Bernie’s millionaire revolutionary fan club:
“Issues tourists”
For them, all of this is strictly an exercise in philosophical wankery. The tangible harm that any of them would suffer under a Trump or Cruz Presidency is zero.
goblue72
@Baud: She played the pizza girl who was really an alien princess that Will Smith had a crush on, if that jogs the memory.
lamh36
For a better more PC reaction to Dawson…check out S. Pelosi’s timeline here where she takes all the points Rosario is I guess “trying” to make and debunking them, from someone on the inside this 8 years.
Just Some Fuckhead
I googled it. Looks like Rosario Dawson is a BernieBro.
/record screeches
Daulnay
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
The NRA position is a very conservative one. Many of Sander’s other positions are liberal – he’s much further to the ‘left’ on other culture wars issues than the Republican candidates, including the so-called moderate ones. This is obvious, so what’s your point? You certainly can try to tar someone with ‘conservative’ by singling out one issue, but that’s a bad-faith form of argument.
hitchhiker
@WarMunchkin:
He doesn’t, though. If the Democratic primaries included any big winner-take-all states, He would have a serious shot at winning the nomination. But since the divvying up will be proportional to the votes cast, he has to reverse what she did in Feb and March — win a bunch of big states by a lot while preventing her from doing it any more than she already has.
I don’t see any problem with anything he’s done. I think he HAS moved the window, in the sense that it looks like a big fat generation of voters see the chance of getting more of what they want if they vote. And they want a lot more socialism and a lot less income inequality. It’s an awesome time to be a Democrat; we have a good chance to reverse the public policy losses that started with Reagan and exploded with W.
aimai
@PhoenixRising: Yeah. I don’t understand to whom John thinks he’s aiming his complaint. HRC wants to win and she needs money and supporters to do it. Meanwhile SAnders wants to win and he needs HRC’s voters to do it and he and his supporters are going about the task of marshalling them by explaining that people who vote for HRC are irremiediably evil, just like their choice of someone to vote for is irremeidiably evil. In fact, they are arguing, the entire of the political system and the democratic hierarchy is so terrible that even to name people you admire is an act of evil. They have attacked John Lewis, Rachel Maddow, and basically every other person the SAnders campaign comes in contact with. Very routinely anyone who says they are an HRC supporter at Kos is attacked for “having a job” and therefore “not needing” the imminent revolution.
Bernie is not bringing about a revolution. He will be lucky if he gets into power and then he will be unable to do anything and his supporters will turn on him in the blink of an eye. Like the tea partiers and the right wingers who have ended up going for Trump Sander’s has his voters in a froth believing that they will finally get something, their pain will be assuaged, the state will deliver. well–it won’t. Sanders can’t make it. And all his voters can’t make it. So they are going to be dissapointed and like any millinarian movement (not a movement of hat makers a movment of millenial miracle seekers) they will splinter into a million tiny sects, some still worshipping sanders and declaring that he was “stabbed in the back” and others attacking him for having been insufficiently pure and unabel to bring about the final stage of world perfection. Thus it ever was.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@dollared: what did I say was incorrect.
name it, – you can’t.
Alex.S
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Audio at http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/04/01/bernie-surrogate-knocks-obama.html — it’s about one minute in.
Baud
@goblue72: thanks, but I saw that movie once when it first came out on DVD. I don’t remember any of it.
dollared
@aimai: Brilliant! You know all there is to know about every single Bernie supporter! And you can confidently predict the future! Was there a pill you took to acquire so much omniscience in so little time?
goblue72
@Alex.S: It absolutely moves the Overton Window. He’s not pretending to have respectful disagreements with the GOP. He’s calling them a bunch of fringe lunatics. Remember how the GOP turned “liberal” into a dirty word such that liberals had to start calling themselves “progressives”?
That’s what he’s doing. You don’t turn “conservative” into a dirty word unless you move the culture and the mainstream frame to start thinking of them as anything but fringe lunatics.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Daulnay: keep drinking the koolaid. this is what cults do.
goblue72
@aimai: Wow. You really are loony tunes.
Cacti
@Alex.S:
If only Barack Obama understood organizing people as well as Rosario Dawson.
Seriously, the shit that comes out of the mouths of Bernfeelers.
Reality: If Obama wasn’t termed out, he’d stomp Sanders into the ground in the primary.
lamh36
Look, I know there are a good bit of “older folks” here at BJ but alot of people of a certain age do know who Rosario Dawson is, especially people of color including Hispanics and Black folk.
Sure she’s B list at best, but I’d wager a certain age bracket knows who Rosario is more than so Susan Sarandon.
dogwood
@goblue72:
She’s also proved herself to be an idiot. Lost faith in Obama after two months? He didn’t use Twitter enough? Why would she care if the president used Twitter? She checked out after 2 months. Was Twitter even around then? I guess we can add “hot” female privilege to white and male privilege. Just a guess, but I think she’ll be dropping out of the revolution fairly quickly if Sanders gets elected.
goblue72
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: So sayeth the obsessed looney tune.
dslak
@hitchhiker: After thrir messiah loses the nomination, the Bernie folks won’t turn out for anyone in 2018, when their votes would count more. The only thing they live for is to be perpetually disappointed.
Kay
@Baud:
I feel like you’re starting to suspect I’m a Kasich plant :)
I get a little obsessive and granted, I am obsessing over you not seeing the threat :)
We’ll reassess after Pennsylvania.
rikyrah
Dawson needs to go somewhere and sit down. Her tweets show an utter ignorance of what has happened over the past 7 years. Have no patience for this kind of ignorance.
Chyron HR
@Daulnay:
As expected of someone who supports WALL STREET HILLARY.
debbie
@Kay:
Actually, from what I’ve observed, Kasich is making himself very hated by the Tea Party. Should he bumble his way into a coup for the nomination, there will either be a third party or a whole lot of conservatives sitting out the election.
rikyrah
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Tell it.
TELL IT!
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Go lamh.
Tell that truth.
Daulnay
@Chyron HR:
Well, I support Culture Wars Hillary, but not Wall Street Hillary. Which means that, come the election, I’ll pull the Dem lever unless the Republicans somehow nominate Noam Chomsky.
Baud
@Kay:
Kay…Kasich
You don’t need to be Glen Beck to make the connection
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Five stages of grief:
5. Denial
4. Anger
3. Bargaining
2. Depression
1. Acceptance
What we’re witnessing here is the death throes of “the People’s Revolution” with the dead-enders currently in the anger stage. It’s baby steps, but still it’s progress.
NobodySpecial
Oh, this was a fun little troll, Cole. You’ve got the hippie punchers ALL riled up today.
agorabum
My beef is with the “Naderite Resurgents” who have crawled back out from under their rocks and are the core of the ‘bernie or bust’ contingent that calls Hillary the devil for being in the establishment and doesn’t argue that Sanders is better, but that a vote for Clinton is a corrupting black mark on the soul. The candidates themselves are fine and are generally playing nice. Their surrogates are not, but it is the Sanders supporters calling Hillary the devil while the Hillary ones just call Bernie unrealistic.
Methinks the level of vitriol on the two sides is not equal.
debbie
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Okay, you say this, and then you expect them to come on over and support your candidate?
Kay
@debbie:
I heard the same thing before he won re-election. Liberals give conservatives too much credit. They would back a stuffed animal over Hillary Clinton and the Tea Party will consider it Obama’s Third Term and an opportunity to beat him. The base will turn out in droves. We’ll all be shocked and outraged when they turn on a dime the minute they leave Cleveland and we’ll be screaming that they’re hypocrites and they won;t care at all.
The nominee will be the 2nd coming of Ronald Reagan by Labor Day.
Alex.S
@goblue72: Sanders is talking about how he’s going to reach out to voters to form a revolution that will convince politicians to pass his legislation or vote for politicians that will support him.
I guess you can argue that it’s Overton window pushing to say that conservatives and the Republican party are crazy and people should stop voting against their interests. But it’s a poor way to convince people who are currently conservatives or Republicans that you respect them and that they should vote for Sanders. And it’s a poor way to run an election by assuming that the superiority of your ideas will convince people after they… something something. I guess stop caring about social issues and local issues and trust the good media (but not the bad media that is propping up the Republican party)?
dollared
@Kay: My fear is no majority at the convention, and Paul Ryan appears, and is given a $2B check from the Koch & friends cabal. “moderate, intellectual, Paul Ryan” then gets a free pass from the media, and the war on Hillary goes full nuclear.
Only 8 weeks from September to November. Very scary.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dogwood: She’s also proved herself to be an idiot. Lost faith in Obama after two months? He didn’t use Twitter enough? Why would she care if the president used Twitter?
Good god. I would hope you’re exaggerating.
But I do agree we have to draw a line between surrogates (especially celebrities) and candidates. Someone tell me how this is advancing causes and shifting Overton Windows.
The sanctimonious old coot clearly loves this stuff. He’s been (IMO) beating this joke to death ever since Chuck Todd fed him the idea, anyone know if it gets the response from his crowds it gets from the man himself?
Cacti
@dogwood:
It’s not confined to one gender.
Both men and women considered physically attractive earn more on average in the same profession than those considered average or below average looking. Also more likely to be hired during a recession.
jl
@Baud: Anyone see Kay and Kasich in the same place at the same time? Coincidence?
But I am a proud Clod for Baud. The BaudClods can out-boor anyone.
As for Cole’s thoughtful rumination on campaign piffle, I cringe when supporters like Dawson blow up silly campaign sniping and put it into a prominent campaign appearance. But, no one will remember this stuff in a few weeks.
I knew nothing about it until Cole’s post prompted me to look it up. Thanks, Cole!
Iowa Old Lady
@lamh36: I’m sure you’re right. My husband always has to tell me who various celebrities are because I never know. The question is does it matter what Dawson says. Her analysis of Obama’s performance doesn’t seem impressive to me, but given my ignorance, I’m willing to admit she could be influential. I have no idea.
Djchefron
@dollared: The majority of people get their healthcare from their employers. Now as grand as medicare for all or whatever form it takes do you really thing Americans will give it up for government run health care? Hell, they went crazy over the ACA and it didn’t even effect them
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@debbie: I don’t expect that at all. They’ve said millions of times they will never support Clinton. They’re explicitly on record calling her “evil”. Look at what Susan Sarandon said on Monday night (Trump would bring about the glorious Revolución!). I take them at their word. Like 2008, there will always be dead-end PUMAs.
But that aside, the Sanders’s supporters can’t see their internal contradictory position: they attack Clinton all the time, even using Fox News memes, but object to anyone criticizing their candidate. If you’re against criticism, you should be against all criticism. But no.
Cacti
@NobodySpecial:
Rosario Dawson is a hippie?
trollhattan
Who declared Cranky Friday?
I’ma get ready for diner and perhaps, drinks.
goblue72
@agorabum: I have seen almost no one on any of these BJ comment threads who are Bernie supporters claim they will sit out the election. And I’m not counting the obvious loose cannons like mcclaren.
What I do see is a lot of Clinton supporters conjuring Nader phantoms out of whole cloth and exhibiting a lot of butthurt over criticisms that their establishment candidate is far less liberal that some folks feel is actually needed at this point in time – and who have serious doubts that 4 or 8 years of a Clinton administration will do anything to leave American workers in something meaningfully better than the shit position they are today.
liberal
@Fair Economist: Clinton is a Wall St lackey who’s a lot better than any Republican.
PsiFighter37
I am getting to the point where I cannot stand a lot of the folks on my FB feed who are Sanders fans. I really think that part of it is a racial component; the most noxious Bernie supporters are all white people (and apparently rich people like Rosario Dawson or Susan Sarandon…money is blind). JFC.
WarMunchkin
@Kay: I think I might put imaginary money down for Ryan/Haley coming out of the convention.
NobodySpecial
@Cacti: He wasn’t talking to Rosario Dawson, sweetcheeks. ;)
PsiFighter37
@trollhattan: I usually don’t drink after working out (and I drank a bit last night), but I think it might call for it.
The problem is going to become worse before it gets better, because Bernie is almost certainly going to win Wisconsin. Tad Devine must be laughing his ass all the way to the bank. He was such a loser on the Kerry campaign in 2004.
Cacti
@goblue72:
Susan Sarandon and Michael Moore weren’t Naderites?
Kay
@dollared:
Oh, she can beat Paul Ryan. He’s a horrible candidate. You don’t have to fear every name they float. Most of them are weaker than Clinton. I just flat out do not believe they are going to allow their base to lose an election before it starts. They’ll do something.
dollared
@Djchefron: So you think President Sanders and his Revolutionary Congress would collect tax revenue to pay for healthcare for 330 million Americans, but only deliver it for the 120M on Medicare, Medicaid and VA? And with the rest, they would…….run away to Brazil?
Because that is what Vox is stating as fact. And you defend that as accurate?
Cacti
@NobodySpecial:
Then who’s the hippie that’s being punched, love muffin?
goblue72
@Cacti: Do Sarandon and Moore post here?
dogwood
@goblue72:
I think you are right about the Overton Window in many ways. When I was a kid in the 60’s “conservative” had a bad connotation. I think my parents called themselves republicans, but I never heard them say “conservative”. By the time I graduated from college in 1976, “liberal” was a dirty word. I also think electoral shifts lag attitudinal shifts in this country. People change their views yet still hang onto party loyalty, so it was 1994 before the republicans took the House. I don’t predict we will regain power much quicker than that. And I wouldn’t give Bernie all the credit for moving the window. Barack Obama started moving the window and we’re now getting a strong assist from Trump, Cruz and the other clowns who ran.
dollared
@goblue72: This. 100% this. And Clinton can solve this tomorrow. Pledge to veto TPP. Right now. Don’t “criticize it.” Don’t mention that you “oppose it in its current form.” Say that it is dead and you will never sign it.
And she won’t. Because she is still a neoliberal. And she will continue the policies that have hurt the working class.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: I agree Paul Ryan as a weak candidate, and that’s without the rogue elephant Trump-bo turning his tusks and trumpet (I’m tempted to add piss-stream, but that would be crass) on him. I think their side is stuck with Trump as candidate, and a longshot with Trump as… which god returns and destroys after being cast out?
goblue72
@PsiFighter37: Rosario Dawson is not white.
Nor are a lot of Bernie supporters. And the whole Clintonistas and their BernieBros bullshit has gotten a number of POC rightfully pissed off.
#BernieMadeMeWhite
Kay
@WarMunchkin:
I’m fine with Ryan and I don;t think the VP matters unless it’s a notably horrible pick that stands out in a bad way. Women really don;’t vote like: Female A (Clinton)= Female B (Haley). Republicans think they do but they don’t.
NobodySpecial
@Cacti: Your Batmobile lost a wheel. Clearly Dawson, the Hispanic lady with all the free vitriol being thrown at her by the Balloon Juice Shade Crowd is the hippie. You can guess who the puncher is now, I hope.
Cacti
@goblue72:
Nope they just evangelize for “heighten the contradictions” on national television. Well, only Sarandon really. Moore seems to have learned a little something from his prior “there’s no difference” stupidity.
SS on the other hand has no problem with us lumpenproletariat suffering to bring about the ultimate revolution.
lamh36
Emma
@dollared: Well, a large number of you on these threads match the description.
debbie
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
As was the case in 2008, the vast majority will vote for whoever is the candidate. Stop with this “they.”
Cacti
@NobodySpecial:
When did words stop meaning things?
Born in 1979 now = Hippie?
Okey dokey.
dslak
I have never seen Hillary Clinton post here, so I would appreciate it if people stopped criticizing what she says.
WarMunchkin
@Kay: I sometimes joke to my friends that the best chance conservatives have of winning this election is to nominate Hillary Clinton and make this into an off-year election. Their base turns out, ours feels like there’s no need, and they keep their Senate seats.
lamh36
@Iowa Old Lady: naw…she brings nothing…and has no influence whatsoever.
She’s a low B-/high C actress at best. Who just happens to be “co-starring” in the Marvel Netflix series.
So of course dudebros and comic book heads love her more than most, and I’d wager they also be more inclined towards Bernie than most
LIke I said, she said stupid shit…so she’s gettin dragged for it…that’s it…no more…no less. To make is like she’s getting attacked for just being a BS supporter and not for ya know saying stupid shit…it what’s really sticking in my craw.
dslak
@WarMunchkin: That sounds like some mighty fine Kool-Aid you’re drinking!
Technocrat
But we criticized them, John. We laughed at them for voting 50 times to repeal Obamacare. We laughed at them for wearing dumb-ass tricorner hats with teabags obscuring their faces. We got pissed at them for yelling “You Lie!” in the SOTU.
It’s kind of difficult to suddenly do a mental 180 and consider batshit wingnuts our role-models for political change.
eemom
@goblue72:
Well, I’ll be danged. Another of our stalwart 24/7 leftier than thou Hillary bashers outs himself as the emotional equivalent of a 14 year old boy to whom the entire concept of “woman” consists of something to jerk off to.
dslak
@lamh36: Oh, come on. People on this site are always hating on Sarah Silverman!
PhoenixRising
@goblue72:
The same people who “knew” that Gore was no better than Bush “know” that Clinton is a DLC sellout who doesn’t really mean any of the things she’s accomplished in the past 16 years that are far more liberal than the record of their preferred savior–who happens to be Sanders this time. I’m old enough to recall Bill Bradley, the only progressive in the Democratic party.
But to your deeper point, the criticisms that take the form of character attacks are destructive to the future of this country, to the extent that they promote so-what nihilism among folks who only vote when they feel love. It matters who wins this election, and that’s not a phantom.
It’s not useful to accuse Clinton of being less liberal (on what issue?) or to attack her character with the ‘When will you commit to stop beating your wife?’ approach to donor records.
Why not slam her policy record, which she has plenty of to attack?
I don’t know why I’m treating you like you take policy seriously–aren’t you the fool who thinks that Edwards “didn’t do anything” about poverty because he went back to his job after losing an election, his wife and his credibility? All he did was force the winning candidates to address his issues using his frame, which is nothing I guess. Politicians are human beings, and if you can move them toward mouthing a policy that is more in line with your preferences by any means whatsoever, that’s…how the grownup world works to shift what policies are acceptable to debate.
The Overton Window is not about making the other party and its supporters feel stupid. It’s about shifting the range of policies that serious people will take seriously.
dollared
@Emma: Right. Again, omniscience. Brilliant.
dollared
@eemom: Yeah, because if a guy thinks that a single woman on this planet is “hot” then he has lost his ability to reason and is a monstrous pig. Brilliant.
goblue72
@Alex.S: Fact based arguments do not convince people. That is a fantasy that technocratic pointy headed liberals have been clinging to for far too long.
You CAN get people to eventually listen to fact based arguments – AFTER you’ve shaken them up and activated them emotionally. This is about associating conservatives (and the GOP) as a lunatic fringe of losers, such that Average Joe starts to feel like “his team” are a bunch of losers.
The John Birch society type views that are essentially what the Tea Party and much of the GOP base is (the Koch Brothers dad was a Bircher as was Charles Koch), were once upon a time called freakazoids. By a REPUBLICAN President –
That quote is from Eisenhower. That “splinter” group wound up taking over the GOP, leading it to electoral dominance and eviscerating the social safety net in this county. (The Boomer’s may hate him, but LBJ, during the period of Democratic dominance, cut the poverty rate in half.)
We need to be on the attack at every moment against the right wing. Unrelenting. And that includes a constant barrage of belittlement, attack, and dismissiveness of tone.
dogwood
@lamh36:
Exactly. Her Tweet about the president was completely stupid. Criticizing it has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders.
Emma
AlI right it feels like the sort of night for sweeping statements so here goes:
1. Stop drooling over the idea of revolution. Historically, whether political or cultural, revolutions are violent and messy, and for every winner there are ten losers. They ain’t fun and the cleanup can take a century.
2. Stop calling yourself hippies. It’s utterly silly. And “hippie punching” is an asinine trope. None of us qualify for hippiedom now, if we ever did.
Paul Gottlieb
Dawson said some stupid stuff and people are yelling at her. Who cares? It’s a campaign, people get excited and then they get over it. Bernie Sanders reminds me of every tedious windbag uncle I pray not to get seated next to at a wedding or Bar Mitzvah, but if he should get nominated, i will work side by side with his annoying followers to get him elected. Except for a few brain damaged Berniebots, most of Sander’s supporters will do the same if Hillary gets it.
Kay
@WarMunchkin:
I think it will be really bad, because Clinton will be almost proxy for two, two-term Democratic Presidents that they couldn’t beat. Renunciation is such a big thing with them. Denounce, renounce, vengeance, vindication. It’s like pent-up demand.
goblue72
@dollared: Whatever. There are fair number of the easily fauxtraged on BJ, combined with a older crowd who get the vapors with this kind of talk. These are the people who most assuredly should stay off apps like Grindr and Tinder. Or for that matter, a blog like Jezebel. Or dozen other pop culture blogs that have a most decidedly lefty political slant AND talk a lot about hotness levels of various celebrities.
NobodySpecial
@Cacti: I’m sorry you had to run to a dictionary in your pain.
mclaren
Sorry, no, John. Obama was center-right and Hillary was center-right in 2008.
Hillary today is center-right while Bernie is center-left. A full-on leftist candidate would be talking about a guaranteed minimum income or social credit, or even abolishing private property.
Down in West Virginia where you live, “center left” means “opposes slavery.”
Things are different in the rest of the United States.
PhoenixRising
@goblue72: Ah. I get it. You subscribe to the Out-Asshole the Assholes theory of electoral politics.
That doesn’t seem to work. By ‘work’ I mean ‘win elections’. Most people who think that liberalism can out-nasty the remains of conservatism reply to that statement of fact–that the 3 Democrats who have been elected President in the most recent 65 years of our history were happy warriors for being so damn kind and generous and open-minded that all 3 have been accused of risking their brains falling out–with some version of ‘we haven’t tried it’, so that would be….typical.
Note also that W was the nice guy, as was Reagan. In their respective pools.
dslak
@Kay: What’s happening to the Republicans now could happen to the Dems in 2024, but it’s avoidable.
eemom
@dollared:
No, cuz if her “hotness” is both the first and last thing he sees fit to remark upon when a woman is the subject of a political discussion, that kind of points to which head he keeps his brains in.
goblue72
@Emma: “Hippie punching” doesn’t refer to actual longhaired Flower Children.
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/hippie-punching-101-real-story
Its a widely used phrase all over the Internet on political blogs. So no, we aren’t going to stop using it just because you don’t know what it actually refers to or are so fricking literal minded as to be thicker than a brick.
Cacti
@Emma:
Easy way to tell if you were ever a hippie:
Ask yourself “What is my year of birth?”.
If it’s anything after 1960, then no. Not a hippie, never were.
goblue72
@eemom: Jesus Fucking Christ on a pogo stick you idiot. Numerous folks in the thread didn’t know who she was. So I commented on what she was famous for – she’s a B-list actress who has been in some movies, isn’t generally big name serious dramatic actress, and whose hotness is in part part of why she is famous. Because she’s a B-list Hollywood actress and most of the reason that B-list Hollywood actresses are famous is because they are attractive. Stop the presses, Vicky Vale!
chopper
she’s an actress and she’s liberal. and she said something really stupid. why I should listen to her opinion on politics I have yet to understand, but her recent statements have solidified that belief further.
Cacti
@NobodySpecial:
Pumpkin, I’m sorry to have to explain this to another one of you. Just because you find people wanting to punch you, it doesn’t make you a hippie.
If you aren’t old enough to have participated in the anti-Vietnam war movement, you’re not a hippie.
Glad I could help.
Aqualad08
@mclaren: “Bernie is center-left”
If I could insert a gif of Flash the Sloth from Zootopia slowly reacting to the joke right here, I totally would…
He’s left, and the policies you are describing are “far-left.” Calling HRC “center right” ignores her stances on social issues and gun control, and I can’t abide by that. Sorry.
mclaren
@Kay:
As a counter to that view, remember that the level of repugnance of the two major Republican candidates is such that a large bloc of Repub voters is likely to either vote for a Democrat or sit this election out. Either one is good for Democrats going forward.
Studies show that voters who defect from their party tend not to return. Depressed Republican turnout raises the likelihood of the Dems taking back the House next cycle, and probably the senate this cycle.
Meanwhile, the nightmare scenario for the Republicans keeps getting worse:
Source: “Ted Cruz is no savior: Sorry, Republicans, you’re (probably) still screwed and stuck with Trump,” Salon online.
There are some big advantages to a Hillary presidency. As I’ve pointed out in other posts, HRC is wired in to the Beltway so she know how to get things done. She won’t be able to do anything major with an obstructionist Repub-dominated House, but at least she’s well poised to make minor advances with presidential signing statements, executive orders, and so on.
Hillary is also under no delusion about the savagery of the Republican party after 25 years as the victim of their vicious attacks, so she’ll come out swingin with a meat axe. Unlike Obama, Hillary is unlikely to try to split the difference and compromise.
With her warmongering, Hillary won’t be vulnerable to charges that she’s “weak on defense.” So her polls probably won’t suffer.
Hillary will also have the advantage of a world-class pol as advisor with Bill Clinton. Bill is wired into Washington in unique ways and will be a great asset to her as someone who can schmooze behind the scenes while she takes a tough stance in public.
eemom
@goblue72:
oooh. Hit a nerve, there, huh?
Don’t worry, ya got plenty more where that came from. Go hit “replay” and tell us more.
mclaren
@goblue72:
Don’t feed the astroturfing DINO troll. Ignore the far-right sock puppet named “eemom.”
NobodySpecial
@Cacti: Well, not even true by that dictionary you had to flee to in your obvious suffering, but I never expected much to begin with, knowing your posting history. You go enjoy the rest of your Spring Break, ok? The adults have to work.
goblue72
@PhoenixRising: Conservatives are such failures that they control the House by the widest margin in generations, are at almost no risk of losing it, control the majority of state legislatures, the majority of state governorships and have successfully gerrymander House and state leg seats such that the prospect of them even getting dislodged after the 2020 Census is slim.
The Senate is potentially up for grabs, but even that is not in Democrats favor yet – about the only thing putting the Senate in play is NOT what the Democrats are doing, but by virtue of GOP failure. If your only hope of success is the other guy screwing up, your long term strategy sucks.
They are so secure in their position that they have been able to go so extreme as to quite possibly nominate a complete lunatic as their candidate.
A party that is only able to offer up a very old lefty from Vermont and a 1990s retread as their two leading WH candidates is not functioning from a position of strength. Democrats are lucky that GOP has so structured itself as to produce a primary process incapable of nominating a sane person.*
* I include Ted Cruz in the category of not-sane as I consider him to be an alien Lizard Man from Planet Zebulon.
NobodySpecial
@goblue72: Careful, goblue. eemom hasn’t been this angry since an hour ago.
AnotherBruce
I’m almost afraid to ask this. Because I don’t really roll with pop culture these days. But who is Rosario Dawson and why should I give a fuck? Keep in mind that I’m old with limited fucks to give.
Emma
@goblue72: And you are the perfect example of a BernieBro. And so totally lacking in self-recognition that you don’t even see it. Poor little revolutionary.
Elie
I guess what I see is Bernie’s supporters getting mixed up with their messianic vision of Bernie — and the very real need we and our country have to elect a chief executive who can run the ship of state. This overton window thing is about the messianic/idealistic vision quest actions but has very little to do with “can the man/woman run the team who is gonna run the country”.
We can argue forever whether Hillary is the visionary and left wing messiah that Bernie at least thinks he is, but MY question is who is gonna pick up the reigns of the chariot of the sun (as in Greek mythology)? That chariot requires certain abilities and strengths without which, the sun, according to the myth, ends up all over the place and destroying the earth when it was “taken for a ride” by an inexperienced Phaeton.
I know Hillary can drive the chariot. I don’t see Bernie as having either the experience or temperament to do so. He is not a team guy — he is a lone wolf, the ascetic preaching salvation for those who will listen to and follow him. The presidency, to be run effectively, is run by a team player with a stable temperament. This person will make all kinds of decisions and some of them will be mistakes. For the most part however, this person will have to lead a fragmented and fractious country in an unstable world where people are not necessarily going to see things your way…That I know Hillary is gonna be good at. She is the only candidate running who would be this time.
mclaren
@goblue72:
These peoples’ heads would explode if they ever went on a blog like xojane or DailyKos or Umair Haque’s blog:
Source: “Brutality and Purpose,” Harvard economist Umair Haque, 17 March 2016.
Kay
@dslak:
Oh, I agree. I think there are real fissures in the Democratic Party. I just don’t think they’ll hurt Hillary Clinton this cycle.
I liked this from her today, not because it’s “manufacturing” (I don’t care what sector it’s in) but because she went to a vocational high school.
This is the sort of thing she’s best at and it’s not flashy but it’s her strength and she should flaunt it. I feel like women candidates are at a disadvantage because people relegate this stuff to “the practical” like it’s small change- not soaring, not Big Ideas, but this is actually her strength and if she were a man it would be valued more as “down to earth”.
It’s also 10 billion dollars which is really pretty big for one area of job training/employment funding. The entire Race to the Top in the stimulus was 8 billion dollars.
mclaren
@Elie:
Sorry, Elie, but the grand ship of state called America has run aground.
Republicans in the House of Representatives are not going to let the next Democratic president run anything.
So all this talk of “we need a leader who can run things” is just hot air. Not. Gonna. Happen.
In that case, why not vote for someone who stands for the right policies?
Since the Republicans won’t let us enact any of our policies, why not stand tall for the right ones?
goblue72
@Cacti: You are so stupid you don’t even know what “hippie punching” is.
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/hippie-punching-101-real-story
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/macroeconomic-hippie-punching/?_r=0
Shit, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was even on the BJ dictionary, but all the links to the BJ dictionary appear to be dead.
goblue72
@Kay: I’m a Sanders supporter and completely agree. And its probably a better use of $10B than the $8B for “Race To The Top”. (Its probably going to take 8 years to fix the damage that Arne Duncan’s DOE did.)
Pair that with wage insurance and you start having a workforce program that isn’t just “GO TO COLLEGE, YO!”
AnotherBruce
Oh god, I see people are already going over the Rosario Dawson thing. Yes, I really don’t give a fuck. We give too much attention to so many people we should not give a fuck about.
mclaren
@Kay:
Kay, this is a perfect example of how out-of-touch and clueless Hillary Clinton is on policy.
Her 10 billion dollar initiative to boost U.S. jobs in manufacturing is a policy straight out of the 1990s.
Sadly, talk about boosting manufacturing jobs in America is empty rhetoric. Because the manufacturing jobs have gone away and they aren’t coming back.
Source: “Manufacturing Jobs Are Never Coming Back,” Fivethirtyeight, 18 March 2016.
Or try this one:
Source: “How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work,” The New York Times, 21 January 2102.
Hillary Clinton is out of touch and behind the times. Locked in her top-1-percenter bubble, she doesn’t realize that vacuous nostrums like bringing manufacturing jobs back to America are a non-starter.
Automation has destroyed factory work as a source of middle-class income. And neural nets + robotics + Big Data + the internet is rapidly destroying white collar work as a source of middle-class income.
This is the essential problem that faces the American economy today. It is a problem Bernie Sanders at least grapples with. But Hillary is completely clueless. Her policies are not even wrong…they’re just irrelevant to the reality on the ground in U.S. economy in 2016.
dogwood
@mclaren:
Good grief, Bill Clinton is 20 years removed from elective office. She is far more attuned to the changing country than he can ever be right now.
goblue72
@Emma: I’m sorry if you can’t handle being unfamiliar with common political blog lingo and then get pantsed on it. And yeesh, could you fools come up with something more original than “Berniebro”. You just look like a bunch of morons with your continued bleating of “BERNIEBRO!”
mclaren
@goblue72:
Calling other Democrats “stupid” is generally not a good idea unless they demonstrate truly epohcal levels of viciousness or dullness. Or unless they’re DINOs acting in bad faith, like the handful of far-right astroturfers here.
We’re all in this thing together. We should be celebrating the probable election of a Democrat this November and we should be planning how to extend those electoral gains instead of turning on one another.
mclaren
@dogwood:
I think you missed my point. Bill Clinton has charm in boatloads. His charisma is truly legendary. Hillary, not so much.
What I’m pointing out is that Hillary handling the wonkery and Bill handling the schmoozing sounds like a Dynamic Duo.
Kay
@mclaren:
You think conservatives are much more principled than I do :)
Please. They’ll vote for whomever. It’ll be close, too, because there are two left and they’ll coalesce around one so that cuts ten points down to five right there. That’s best case, mclaren, ignoring whatever horror the GOP establishment pulls out of a hat in Cleveland :)
goblue72
@Elie: Fuck you. Sanders supporters are not “messianic” and they aren’t in a cult and they aren’t living in a fantasy land nor whatever fuckstick crap Clinton supporters dream up next. They just don’t like your candidate and disagree over policy directions. That Clinton supporters cannot wrap their heads why Sanders supporters aren;t dropping to their knees to kiss Clinton’s ass is part of the problem.
goblue72
@mclaren: Yeah but the hippies must be punched. Even if they don’t know what hippie punching is, they do know that there must be punching. But yes, I agree – there are a number of authoritarian lickspittles on these threads.
mclaren
@AnotherBruce:
Rosario Dawson is an actress who debuted in the edgy film Kids in 1995. She’s now 36.
Because she is a movie star, her opinions are automatically world-shakingly important and we must all pay devout attention to what she says.
As opposed to clueless nobodies like, you know, Clay Shirky or Bruce Sterling or Chris Hedges or J. Bradford DeLong or Larry Summers or Paul Krugman or David Graeber or Thomas Piketty or Olivier Blanchard.
mclaren
@Kay:
Well, permit me respectfully disagree with you. I’m hearing from so many lifelong Republicans that they will either sit out this election or vote for Hillary that I can’t believe it’s all disinformation.
When you see an article like “5 Reasons I Will Not Vote For Trump If He Is The GOP Nominee” at the redstate blog (yes, I skim that cesspool, so you don’t have to), it really says something is different this time.
I could be wrong. Time will tell.
cbear
@Elie:
You obviously fail to see that the problem some people have with Hillary is we’re not entirely sure which team she’s playing for—which seems to be kind of changy-like depending on the audience and the primary calendar.
Also, too, hopefully this isn’t the temperament you’re referencing
Of course, I’ll vote for her if necessary, but…..
mclaren
@cbear:
And the larger point is that with a fanatically obstructionist Republican congress, no one is going to be “playing” anything. It will be nothing but gridlock.
So I’m really not seeing why Hillary is going to be better than Bernie if Washington is totally gridlocked.
Could a Hillary supporter please explain to me how she is going to get any of her policies through congress when Obama couldn’t get anything done in the past 4 years, and when Hillary is far more detested and despised by the Republicans than Obama?
Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
Elie
@mclaren:
Hmmm — We could flip the senate and have more leverage. But then Bernie aint into that, right?….Fuck that down ballot stuff,,,
AnotherBruce
@mclaren: Exactly what I surmised, thanks for the update mclaren.
Elie
@cbear:
That’s great that you will support her. Nuff said
Emma
@goblue72: Good insults need two things: vocabulary and rhythm. You fail at both.
Linda
Sorry, but I disagree. I don’t particularly worship Obama, but he has not been a disappointment, and her idea that he should have had magical powers to overcome gerrymandering and win off year congressional elections is laughable. And Republicans who pushed the Overton window to the right did it without trashing St. Ronald, who had the advantage of not dealing with a rule or ruin opposition.
Elie
@goblue72:
Listen — I don’t have to cuss you out to make my point. Gotta watch that anger thing, dude. Aint good for you.
mclaren
@Elie:
I think you may be making a mistake here, because the issues at stake in this election are really what energizes the Democratic voting base. And the issues are much larger than Bernie Sanders’ or Hillary Clinton’s fund-raising or appearances at downticket candidates’ campaign rallies.
The issue of the entire Republican party trying to block a Democratic president from making any appointments at all for the rest of his term is a very powerful one. It has stirred up Democratic voters like a beehive whacked with a baseball bat.
The issue of the U.S. economy no longer generating decent middle-class jobs (forget about Hillary empty and meaningless initiative to bring back manufacturing jobs, that’s a non-starter because those jobs are permanently gone due to automation) has got Democratic voters riled up like a long-tailed cat in a roomful of rocking chairs.
The trends and social tides at play here are much larger than Hillary or Bernie, so it seems likely that if we do get a flipped senate it won’t be because of either Hillary or Bernie’s efforts. This whole thing has been building up a head of steam for years now, and as a result this is going to be a transformative election.
cbear
@Elie: I’m ever so grateful that you find my loyalty oath sufficient to your political wants and desires. Additionally, I’m not sure I could have survived the beatings from your tribe had I not pledged my fealty.
divF
@mclaren:
a disgustingly vivid turn of phrase
for which I, for one, am grateful.
dogwood
@mclaren:
I think the people who say that now are similar to the Sander’s supporters who say they won’t vote for Hillary. They believe it right now, but they usually come around. Family feuds are like that. My sister is a lifelong Democrat who refers to herself as a Socialist. For some reason she hates Bernie, and swears she’d never vote for him. I doubt she’d stick to it, however. Plenty of Sander’s voters who say awful things about Clinton right now, won’t like hearing that and worse from the mouth of Donald Trump and vice versa should Bernie become the nominee. But I do believe more Republicans will defect than democrats, because Trump won’t be able to tone it down in the general election.
Kay
It’s getting worse with him:
Hillary Clinton should mimic him in the debate(s). “A question was asked to me” I personally would applaud, although I SUPPOSE it;s childish.
Elie
@cbear:
As a democrat don’t you want me to support Bernie if he wins? Whats with the bitter?
Davebo
The phrase I like to use is “tragically hot” and honestly Rosario doesn’t get there. Cut to be sure, but not tragically hot.
Elie
@mclaren:
Ok — got it. So your answer is “it doesn’t matter if we flip the senate and the downstream stuff is all bullshit”
Thanks!
Elie
Adios Bichachos — I’m outa here. Have a great Friday evening….!!!
Kay
Palin is at a GOP dinner in Milwaukee and it’s awkward, because it’s now clear that there’s something wrong with her.
She could have been a US President. Just ponder THAT for a moment.
mclaren
@Linda:
Speak for yourself.
Obama ran on “hope and change” and delivered a Republican health care plan that forces middle-class people to pay for unaffordable private for-profit health insurance with premiums and deductibles guaranteed to rise limitlessly forever. Obama himself mocked the health care plan he eventually offered, back in 2008:
“If mandates were the answer, we could solve homelessness by passing a mandate that homeless people buy houses.”
And Obama continues his loathsome track record of war crimes and military atrocities:
Source: “The U.S. is quietly helping Saudi Arabia wage a devastating aerial campaign in Yemen,” The Los Angeles Times, 30 March 2016.
Obama has signed off on refusing to prosecute any of the Wall Street criminals who crashed the world economy and then paid themselves lavish bonuses out of the bailout trillions taken from taxpayers like you and me.
See the Guardian article “The Untouchables: How the Obama administration protected Wall Street from prosecutions,” 23 January 2013.
Source: “The Financial Crisis: Why Have No High-Level Executives Been Prosecuted?,” The New York Review of Books, Jed Rakoff, 9 January 2014.
And let’s not forget about Obama’s decision to murder U.S. citizens without a trial and without charging them with a crime…an atrocity that not even William the Conquerer dared perpetrate:
Source: “Obama Legal Theory on Targeted Killing Cribbed From Clarence Thomas?,” Mother Jones, 14 September 2012.
AnotherBruce
@Kay: Meth is a helluva drug.
mclaren
@Elie:
No, my answer is that the senate is likely to flip regardless of what Hillary or Bernie do. Hillary is not a magical creature able to change the political composition of the senate with a wave of her magic wand. Neither is Bernie.
Larger forces are at work.
dogwood
@mclaren:
I’ll bite. I don’t think either will accomplish much for the realistic reasons you state. I simply don’t agree with you that Bernie is all that electable, and it’s not a risk I want to take in terms of the Court, the environment etc. We have a chance to change the direct of the Supreme Court for the next several decades which is the most crucial thing for me. Getting money and influence out of politics and protecting the rights of the most vulnerable will be a much harder task if we don’t get a sane SCOTUS.
Southern Beale
Actually, a big chunk of them are. They aren’t pushing Clinton to the left, they’re poisoning her candidacy. They’re “feeding the right-wing disinformation campaign,” as Krugman put it. And Sanders isn’t doing jack shit for down ballot races. A president can’t do anything without Congress, but he’s slamming Hillary for fundraising on behalf of her fellow Democrats and acting all holier-than-thou about it, portraying his rival as some kind of corrupt shill because she’s trying to get Democrats elected to the House and Senate. Fuck that shit.
Anne Laurie
@SiubhanDuinne, Mob Enforcer: Squid cloud of butthurt was indeed mine. Coined when I was a newbie front-pager, after someone on a personal group spouted garbage about Obummer Willfully Destroying Our Noble Military, and I asked for links to milblogs somewhat to the left of Genghis Khan so that they might become less deluded.
mclaren
@Southern Beale:
Do you have any hard factual evidence to support this claim?
Here’s the opposite view, one that strikes me as correct:
“Bernie Sanders has made Hillary Clinton a better candidate, says chairman of Texans for Hillary,” 15 February 2016.
mclaren
@dogwood:
With Trump the likely nominee, a dead dog would be electable. We don’t have to worry about Trump winning this election. You might not have seen the latest polls…
Source: “Ted Cruz is no savior: Sorry, Republicans, you’re (probably) still screwed and stuck with Trump,” Salon magazine online, 1 April 2016.
Anne Laurie
@Trentrunner:
Sanders got very testy on-camera with Rachel Maddow earlier this week. Didn’t watch the whole interview, but he kept insisting he wouldn’t have to support HRC because he’d be the Democratic nominee. Also, asked about throwing some of his vast small-dollar donations to down-ticket Dems, he’d only say “We’ll see what happens” , which kinda reminded Democrats he’s only been ‘one of us’ since he decided to go for the Oval Office.
Cacti
@goblue72:
You should be heartened. Hippie is one of the few thing you’re still too young to be, 43 year old guy in the throes of an obvious midlife crisis.
Anne Laurie
@dslak: Yeah, to get it into the BJ record:
Anne Laurie
@Cacti: Also “Bernie’s cosplay revolutionaries”.
From either Al Giordano or (former BJ front-pager) Dengre, to the best of my recollection.
AliceBlue
@Southern Beale:
Amen sister.
I got a little annoyed at Rosario Dawson’s fuckwittery earlier this evening, but I’m more than a little annoyed with Bernie. I’ve gotten to the point where I can’t stand him. And I agree with him on a lot of things.
Amir Khalid
@mclaren:
The pirates may be on the bridge and hindering the captain from doing his job, as you say; but can you conclude that you don’t need a captain who can run the ship?
mclaren
@Anne Laurie:
You’ll be talking out of the other side of your mouth when Bernie’s socialist paradise become a reality. Lemonade streams and big rock candy mountains.
Forward to the barricades, comrade!
Amir Khalid
@Anne Laurie:
That’s just like the answer Ted Cruz gave, when asked if he’d support nominee Donald.
mclaren
@Amir Khalid:
Once again, I’d like some hard evidence that Bernie Sanders can’t run things. He seems to be have out-financed Hillary and out-organized Hillary on the ground. Judging by the meager start his campaign got and the results we’ve seen, Bernie Sanders is a stellar manager.
chopper
@mclaren:
so i guess mclaren and cacti are the same dude. somehow it makes sense.
AliceBlue
@mclaren:
He may be a stellar manager, but he does not have the temperament for the Oval Office. IMO if he were to become president, he would hate the job and be miserable every single day. In other words, Bernie be careful what you wish for. You might get it.
Monala
@dollared: Depends on the person/household. My household would pay about $6,000 more in taxes under Bernie’s plan. My husband and I both work full-time. My job covers health insurance for employees only at 100%. My husband pays about $250 a month to cover himself and our daughter. That’s $3,000 a year. So we’d still be paying $3,000 more a year in taxes. We can’t afford that. We don’t own a home, have two used cars, and barely anything saved for retirement. Right now we can pay all our bills, but that wouldn’t be the case if we were hit with a $3,000 tax bill.
And would there be any cost-sharing under Bernie’s plan? Because there would have to be, or else there’d be health care rationing, unless we can somehow drastically reduce doctor’s salaries and the like. (Please note that Medicare currently requires some cost-sharing – people do have out of pocket costs, unless they buy supplemental plans). So we’d pay a net $3,000 more in taxes and maybe still have deductibles and copayments.
But one of my biggest concerns about moving to single payer is that the fight to maintain contraception access and reproductive rights becomes a lot bigger. Or do you think that the rightwing would suddenly cave on those issues under a single payer plan?
dogwood
@Amir Khalid:
We aren’t going to get a President who will be able to exert much influence over Congress no matter who we nominate. But we do need a nominee who can run the executive branch and who is willing to understand that optics matter there. That a Predident can’t just wag his finger and dismiss everything he’s not interested in as trivial. He’s going to have to do shit every day that he doesn’t want to do. And he’s going to have to sell out his principles if he wants to get elected. He’ll have to take the filthy money that Clinton and Obama will raise for him if he wants to compete in the General.
dogwood
@mclaren:
You don’t know shit about out-organizing anything. In my county the democratic caucus usually draws about 25 people. In ’08 I kept getting daily emails from the Obama campaign that the caucus site was moving due to higher interest. It was moved 3 times in the last 2 weeks before Super Tuesday, and thank God it did because 700 people showed up. I didn’t caucus this year, but my neighbor did, and said around 50 people attended. And if you really do believe he is out-doing her in terms of money and organization, then he must not be much of a candidate because he isn’t beating her when it come to winning votes and pledged delegates.
Heliopause
@Monala:
Single payer wouldn’t be happening in the first place if they had any leverage at all. Your objection makes no more sense than objecting to ACA because righties successfully limited Medicaid expansion, semi-successfully fought the contraception mandate, etc.
CONGRATULATIONS!
John, you’re right and I’ve likely been one of the offenders at one point or another. Apologies made to whoever requires one.
Cacti
@chopper:
Yeah, no.
chopper
@Cacti:
that sounds exactly like the sort of thing a sockpuppeteer would say.
I say this as a paid member of a secret CIA cabal aimed at disrupting leftists on third rate Internet blogs.
Omnes Omnibus
@chopper: Be fair. This place is definitely second rate.
ruemara
@Southern Beale: This. Cole’s posts these days tend to gloss over a lot of things to play both sides and why are you being so mean to the poor Bernie fan who just made a comment. Dawson was hyping the FBI arresting Clinton over the email scandal as well as the asinine “we were disappointed with the president 2 months into his first term” and he didn’t do Twitter to organize us. Pure WTFuckery. And the idea that it’s a slur on Bernie supporters to say that certain right wing fantasies have become their fantasies too, sorry. This is real, it’s not every last one, but it is highly prevalent and irritating.
Omnes Omnibus
@ruemara: He knows she is the likely nominee and he supports most of her positions, but he buys into every anti-HRC thing he sees because he grew up a GOPer in the ‘”80’s and 90s. Some of it is ingrained by now. There is also his Sullivanian tendency to react emotionally to everything before thinking.
AnotherBruce
@srv: Stop that crap. Trump has said plenty of bullshit that is left right and center. Hillary will destroy him because of his bullshit and misogyny, not because of his ideological prowess.
The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016
@Kay: I’d be far more worried if the party was coalescing around Kasich as the not-Trump-not-Cruz alternative. Its been nearly three weeks since Rubio left them high and dry though, and they haven’t bought into him yet. He may be the GOP’s best shot at salvaging this mess, but the same reasons he is are the same reasons the GOP doesn’t want him in the big chair.
And as far as the party falling in, mmmmmmmmaybe. I’m having a hard time seeing the same base championing Trump for telling it like it is suddenly going ‘aw, shucks’ and falling in behind the guy he got couped in favor of.
sigaba
Conservatives have their church people; liberals have Hollywood actors.
low-tech cyclist
John, with all due respect, we did have a candidate in 2008 who was pushing the Overton Window to the left. Guy named John Edwards, who most people would like to forget about because he was a real douchebag to his wife when she was fighting (and ultimately dying of) cancer.
Edwards, FWIW, was the guy who got both universal health care and climate change on the table, and by coming up with plans to address them, forced Obama and Hillary to do the same. (Before Edwards, the best Hillary would say about UHC was that she might be able to get to that in her second term.)
I have probably less of a clue than you do about why things are getting all tribal and heated between Hillary and Bernie supporters. I’m a Hillary supporter, but I see her flaws, and I think Bernie’s been doing the party and the country a real service here, though quite honestly I think his focus on single-payer is not only misguided but ridiculous: Obamacare may not be perfect, but it’s closed the gap enough that if getting from Obamacare to single-payer is one of the top issues of the day, we must be closing in on paradise.
Keith G
I have always energetically hated how the Right would and does use ad hominem and “poisoning the well” attacks (usually based on overt misstatements) on individuals who disagree with their talking points. What distresses me at least a little and actually disappoints me even more is how people on my side of the line are using the same tactics.
Pathetic
maryQ
@PhoenixRising: yep. Exactly. Thank you for this. I think it is becoming quite damaging. Especially when liberals recycle and precycle republican talking points.
I have not seen HRC drag out Sanders’ truly embarrassing high praise for autocrats and bread lines. I suspect that this is out of understanding that, should he become the nominee, it would not be cool if our side handed the poison to whatever hair ball the GOP coughs up.
maryQ
@dogwood: word!
D58826
@ruemara: Read some of the pro-Bernie articles on Huffington/Slate and you would think Hillary is the off-spring of Hitler and Pol Pot.
maryQ
@D58826: and that her supporters are either privileged white people looking for stable marginal tax rates, or stupid black people who don’t know what’s good for them.