The other ones didn't have Twitter, but it seems to me 2016 has been a less nasty Dem primary than 1988, 1992, 2004, or 2008.
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) April 19, 2016
I can attest that it is dramatically less nasty than 2008 https://t.co/5OBWSaLEqQ
— Dan Pfeiffer (@danpfeiffer) April 19, 2016
From the Washington Post, “New York has plenty of values that Ted Cruz wasn’t counting on”:
With the New York primary just days away and the airwaves filled with presidential candidates talking about New York values, two guys were discussing the subject during a coffee break on Wall Street.
“Hey Steve,” one friend called to another. “What’s a New York value?”
“Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness — and Ted Cruz is a complete a–hole,” said Steve Giannantonio, who works in finance. “That’s a New York value.”…
“Where is Ted Cruz from anyway?” said Freddy Aponte, 35, a building super from the Bronx.
“I don’t know, Kansas?” said his co-worker Elijah Moses, 30, from Harlem. “Ohio?”
“Some place with 99 people,” said Jeury Jimenez, 19, a baker from Harlem…
Just down the street, two guys in nice-looking suits were standing outside, not far from where the World Trade Center had once been. They looked like Wall Street bankers, but it turned out that one of them was a lawyer who was a part-time actor, and the other was a writer, director and actor, and they were about to film a car commercial, proving the point that another New York value is not making assumptions about people.
“I think he meant to distinguish New York Jewish elite liberals from the rest of the country,” said David Denowitz, 59, the lawyer, referring to Cruz’s jab. “I took it very badly, because I’m a New York Jewish elite liberal. Well, upper-middle class and educated.”
“New York is really a shining example for the rest of the world — we’re Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, and we all ride the same subway, we all sit at the same lunch counter, and no bombs go off because no one feels the need,” he said, pointing out that the obvious exceptions were the work of outsiders…
Apart from the New York primary (as if that weren’t enough, for us political junkies), what’s on the agenda for the day?
"I'm hoping to do really well tomorrow. I'm hoping to wrap up the Dem nomination," HRC says. "But I'm not taking anything for granted."
— Jennifer Epstein (@jeneps) April 18, 2016
AnonPhenom
Greetings from the Big Apple!
Looks like Hillary’s a lock today. So I’m off to pull the lever for Bernie.
Ta-ta!
Mustang Bobby
Great. 24 hours before I have to fly halfway across the country to present a paper and watch one of my one-acts get workshopped at the 35th William Inge Festival, my allergies kick in. Oh, lortadine (aka Clar*tin) take me away.
raven
@Mustang Bobby: Maybe Kansas will be better?
Kansas You Fooler.
Jeffro
Just here to second that, even from this layman’s perspective, 2016 has been a calmer Dem primary process than 2008
OzarkHillbilly
Repost from below:
Video at the link
PsiFighter37
Just voted. The folks running my new polling site are completely clueless about how to run a tight shop. One of the ladies helping to find which election district you belong to can’t even really speak English. In other words, good thing I’m an experienced voter and knew what to do.
I voted for Hillary, of course. It was interesting to see that one of Hillary’s delegate choices in this district is Eliot Spitzer’s ex-wife.
Mustang Bobby
Morning Joe is pushing John Kasich like he’s sucking up to be his veep choice. Sad!
raven
@OzarkHillbilly:Got to thinkin about the Daredevils. Road to Glory was one of their best.
Chyron HR
So did New York re-write its election laws overnight to make them more favorable to Sanders? No? CORRUPTION!
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
WaPo reporter Phillip Bump wrote an innocuous article debunking Sanders’s repeated claim that his average contribution is $27.
How did the DudeBros react to such a mild story – they exposed Bump’s home address, attacked his wife, and threaten to kill him:
There’s something really wrong with these people.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Hard to see how Clinton wins today.
Revolutionary Susan Sarandon owns at least 7 homes in New York which means she gets to vote 7 times.
Baud
That’s quite a caveat.
BruceFromOhio
Yes, yes, yes.
Chyron HR
Really, there’s only one candidate in the 2016 primary trying to burn the Democratic party down because he lost. That’s a statistically insignificant number, so it’s not really fair to count it.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Chicken Train for just good old down home weirdness.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Myself, I’m sick and tired of old white men running this country, which is why I’m voting for Sanders. Oh wait…
Central Planning
I’m regretting now I’m not a registered Democrat. I’ll get that taken care of when I register my two oldest boys for the general in November.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: And “If You Want to Go To Heaven, You Got To Raise a Little Hell“! To think I taught at SWMS one summer and didn’t even know they were from Springfield!
I never read it in a book
I never saw it on a show
But I heard it in the alley
On a weird radio
OzarkHillbilly
@BruceFromOhio:
That’s New York values for you, having outsiders do your dirty work for you.
kd bart
The Bernie Sanders campaign has become like New England pro teams in the 21st Century. Where you can somewhat admire what they’ve achieve but find detestable the behavior of those who support them.
Helen
Just returned from voting. My first vote ever was 35 years ago. I have never had even a whiff of a problem, and today was no exception. In and out in 5 minutes. Go Hillary!
The Thin Black Duke
@efgoldman: And probably a few loons from the Sad Puppies mob as well, unfortunately.
rikyrah
Good Morning ?, Everyone ?
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: OMD, Marshall Tucker (Can’t You See), the pre-wingnut ’70s Charlie Daniels (Long Haired Country Boy)
People say I’m no good
And crazy as a loon
‘Cause I get stoned in the mornin’
I get drunk in the afternoon
Kinda like my old blue tick hound
I like to lay around in the shade
And I ain’t got no money
But I damn sure got it made
…..
A poor girl wants to marry
And a rich girl wants to flirt
A rich man goes to college
And a poor man goes to work
A drunkard wants another drink of wine
And a politician wants your vote
I don’t want much of nothin’ at all
But I will take another toke
But I ain’t asking nobody for nothin’
If I can’t get it on my own
You don’t like the way I’m livin’
You just leave this long haired country boy alone
and, of course, the Allman Bothers… Pretty much the play list of my misspent youth.
RedDirtGirl
The women that live at the Park Slope Armory shelter (my polling place) were having a great time trolling the neighbors this morning: “Vote Trump! Vote Trump!” When I gave them a thumbs down gesture they broke into riotous laughter and cheered. I wonder if they are voting this morning?
qwerty42
@rikyrah: Good morning. I always find your morning sign on to be cheerful. Even when the seasonal allergies are bad.
Baud
@qwerty42:
rikyrah’s “good mornings” have put her on my Veep short list.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: Yup, saw Duane three times and then, after he died, saw the band in The Barn in Peoria.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Never got to see Duane. My first AB concert was right after he died. Only got to see OMD once. IIRC they were opening for someone.
Schlemazel (parmesan rancor)
@rikyrah:
Good morning to you too!
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
Something is wrong with anyone who gets so fixated and invested in anyone that acknowledging they’re not perfect makes them rage and swarm. There are psychological terms for this, and none of them are good. There are also historical comparisons, and none of them are good either. It’s exceptionally weird to me, especially since it’s shouty old fart Sanders.
SectionH
Just encountered an actual BernieBro in the wild. I’ve been staying off Facebook a lot recently because I have so many friends who are Bernie ppl. Most of them aren’t insane, and pretty much will vote for whomever is the Democrat in Nov.
Sigh, tonight I did slip, and commented on a post which was “Something’s Rotten in New York.” Poster is a woman was all upset. She just “felt” things were wrong.
I’d actually gotten her to pay attention enough to the links about the actual problems with the AZ voting, and the actual rules in NY. It was kind of cool. I never said anything negative to her, just insisted that she acknowledge facts. She was a bit weaselly (well, a lot at first) but was basically at the point of, OK, maybe Bernie didn’t get “cheated” out of delegates in AZ, nor has he been cheated in NY. (Helped that I pointed out that the Donald’s kids weren’t eligible to vote in NY either.)
I was about to call it a night when I got the full Bernie “burn it down” blast. It was pretty funny – apparently this guy I don’t know and care less about can’t make a distinction between me and the DNC. And the rage. That was pretty not funny, but he went straight into how I’d insulted him and all his fellow Bernies. Because? Oh, and saying the Supreme Court appointments issue in Important is a “threat”to him?
Yep, we’re gonna lose some guys like that. I think we can manage, because I doubt we had ’em in the first place. No snark. That dude was as nuts as any random Trump dude. He was foaming.
MomSense
Hmm, I woke up orange. Guess I should have read the label on the moisturizer more carefully.
Iowa Old Lady
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Sanders’ followers seem to identify with him, not just support him. A criticism of him is taken as a criticism of them. And actually, they sort of broadcast that identification to such an extent that criticisms of him and them do get conflated. It’s very weird.
I’m pretty appalled at the way their cheering for their candidate at conventions edges over into shouting other people down.
God, I hope Clinton does well today. This needs to be over so we can concentrate on November.
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: And then there was Champaign native Ludacris at the UGA spring game!
Kay
Boy, you have to be pretty committed to join a labor union in Colombia:
They have a category for certain murders- “labor homicide”.
Baud
@efgoldman: Some questions are better left unasked.
WarMunchkin
Just voted. I feel a bit guilty, because I really do agree with Sanders on many things. But hopefully Hilldawg has it
OzarkHillbilly
@MomSense: Next time, put the Cheetos away before you fall asleep.
Amir Khalid
What the fish, man?
Baud
@efgoldman: Nah, the GOP would hate to acknowledge them as a separate category.
MomSense
@efgoldman:
Next time i will not buy the Body by Boehner lotion even if it is wicked cheap.
Aimai
@Iowa Old Lady: i was a delegate for bob reich for governor of MA. They gave us cowbells to ring every time we heard his name. We were excited to be at a convention–many of us for the first time–and we were noisy. Polite but excited and noisy. How the regular workers and attendees must have hated us.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Speaking of Champaign, did you ever have a Professor by the name of Stottler? (English, I beleive)?
Kay
@efgoldman:
I’m always amazed at the fierceness of the response, even in the US (although obviously it’s not murder). To me, it’s like “you own just about everything- you really don’t have to tamp down any hint of rebellion”.
All those op eds and “studies” and paid shills and hundreds of millions in political spending, directed at such a small slice of the workforce. It seems wildly disproportionate.
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: We’re all hoping they succeed. It will put an end to Ted Cruz’s political career in the US for sure.
OzarkHillbilly
@efgoldman: I thought it was you who had the dog named Cheetos?
hedgehog the occasional commenter
Morning all. Also love rikryah’s greetings.
Jury duty today. I’ve got Kindle and calligraphy stuff to practice a new hand while waiting to be called (or dismissed).
hedgehog the occasional commenter
@Iowa Old Lady:
He has set them all on fire
They think they’ve found the new Messiah…
Paul in KY
@kd bart: I think Bernie & his campaign are much better than the cheating Cheatriots & their cheating cheaties.
Linnaeus
5:00 AM and the robins woke me up, so here I am.
Paul in KY
@Baud: You could do a lot worse.
Iowa Old Lady
@Aimai: I hate you even over years and a distance and I wasn’t there!
Kay
@efgoldman:
I took part in a phone call about an OH Supreme Court race yesterday afternoon. It’s (genuinely) grass roots- headed up by a local lawyer. They’re planning the Twitter campaign, which yesterday seemed wholly insufficient to the task considering the MILLIONS that will be spent in opposition but today I’m like “Twitter could work!” Such is the magic of conference calls and peer pressure :)
satby
@OzarkHillbilly: darn this dust in my house, makes my eyes water ;)
Thanks for that, what a beautiful way to start the day.
Baud
@Paul in KY:
I am a lot worse.
Paul in KY
@raven: I saw Luda last year at Loufest in St. Louis. Best set of the weekend. he should have headlined that fest.
Baud
@Kay:
Have they considered using a phone tree?
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: If those nutbangs think the Republicans would let Texas secede (and lose 2 reliably Repub Senate seats), they’ve been smoking a lot better stuff than I.
Linnaeus
@Kay:
Yeah, that’s a sobering statistic. Labor organization has faced violence and repression anywhere in the world where people try to do it.
Bruce K
For what it’s worth, I stumbled across a proposal for a white-knight GOP candidate that, frighteningly, makes as much sense as either of the remaining contenders:
https://www.facebook.com/berkeleybreathed/photos/a.114529165244512.10815.108793262484769/1185508488146569/?type=3
Jeffro
@SectionH: I have a BernieBro (actually a BernieGal) in my office, and wow does she ever ebb and flow with these primary and caucus results as they come in for or against Bernie. And the vitriol she has for HRC (and similarly for our quite middle-of-the-road Dem senators Warner and Kaine) is really something.
I’ve tried to keep it light and talk with her about how once the primaries are over, we all need to gear up for the real fight in November. She refuses. I’m like, ok, if you think the Republic can take a Trump or Cruz presidency, be my guest. But don’t stay home and hurt all those down-ballot Dems
Paul in KY
@Kay: They play the long game, Kay. What if some provisions of the Sherman Anti-Trust act were repealed? Say the ones that prohibit general or sympathy strikes? That repeal could make unions as strong as they were in the 20s & 30s.
Thus, the campaign to ensure that if that ever came to pass, unions would already be hamstrung, IMO.
Jeffro
@Paul in KY: speaking of music – since there have been more than a few music recommendations in this thread – any White Denim fans here? I know I’m late to the party here but I’ve really taken a liking to them since I first heard them a month ago. Lake Street Dive, too
msdc
@Aimai: Obviously you needed more cowbell.
Betty Cracker
If the Sanders campaign persists in trying to delegitimize the Democratic Party and painting it as an inherently corrupt and biased institution, this may well become a worse situation than 2008. I do recall the PUMAs raising hell at the rules committee meeting, complaining about the delegate math, denouncing primary processes, etc. But wasn’t that garbage mostly confined to specific situations like the FL and MI delegate mess? Denouncing the Democratic Party as irredeemably corrupt wasn’t central to HRC’s platform. It seems like it IS becoming central to Sanders’ candidacy, and that’s hard to walk back…
cleek
i’ve found the key to a happy FB feed is to tell FB to hide all content from AlterNet, DemocracyNow, Salon, and (of course) the Sanders campaign. now, all my FB friends are back to their old selves!
satby
@efgoldman: I get emails from the clowns that tell you how to have the retirement of your dreams and not pay taxes by moving overseas,they’ve been promoting Colombia hard the last few years. So yeah, Republiklown paradise.
BillinGlendaleCA
@MomSense: You might also want to pass on the “Body by Trump” lotion.
La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes)
Good Morning Juicers! I’m headed out to vote in Brooklyn. Kudos to the early birds who already voted. Not taking anything for granted- voting for Hillz. When the dust settles, I will remain a loyal Dem and support the nominee.
Paul in KY
@Baud: I admire your commitment to truth in advertising!
OzarkHillbilly
@Betty Cracker:
It has been central to Bernie’s political identity since his days as mayor. “I am an independent because I refuse to get myself dirty like all of those other party members.” His whole schtick is based on the idea that the political process is irredeemably broken and corrupt to the core, and that the parties are the driving forces behind it. This is why he refuses to say he will raise money for down ticket races.
I really don’t like “holier than thou” people.
Poopyman
@Baud:
How do you know she’s short? And isn’t that discriminatory to the vertically enhanced?
@OzarkHillbilly:
Classic!
Paul in KY
@Jeffro: I’ve seen both of them, Jeffro. Saw White Denim play at midnight at Bonnaroo 2 years ago. Wow, that one melted my face! Saw Lake Street Dive last year at Hangout. Excellent set. Both ladies can really harmonize. White Denim has a new album out. I hope to catch them again sometime on the circuit. LSD (wonder if they did that on purpose, the initials), I would see again, but not as much of a priority (for me).
Any others you are grooving to right now?
satby
@OzarkHillbilly: My morning routine is to have my coffee and read the overnight threads from wherever I left off last night. Just before I fell asleep I was enjoying John’s post about being sick of the Sanders campaign, but it was only at about 70 comments. Now I’m a bit afraid to go back and read the rest.
Kay
@Baud:
Hah! They’re younger than I am. I was thinking I could “retweet” their thoughtful and considered musings on justice but 1st I have to have a Twitter account- ugh. Judicial races are 100% about “names people vaguely recall in the voting booth” and the judge’s name is Rice (easy!) so they feel if they just make her name the one people read/hear it will help. They’re not wrong.
Paul in KY
@BillinGlendaleCA: Motto: ‘There’s a little bit of Donald in every bottle!’
MomSense
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Ha! Glad I didn’t put that lotion in my hair, too. Crikey.
Amir Khalid
So now we know what Hillary’s favourite hot sauce is.
SiubhanDuinne
@Amir Khalid:
(From your linked article):
They’re talking about Texas, and now I can’t figure out whether “shot down” is inartfully phrased or insidiously brilliant.
Keith G
@efgoldman:
Unfortunately, some of Sanders best positions (in my mind) are based on notions that promote conspiracy theories. The truth of the matter seems to be that if one uses conspiracy language in ones policies and ideals, one can attract a portion of followers who are thoroughly repugnant and lacking a strongly rational thought process.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I find myself disappointed so many New Yorker independents won’t be allowed to vote in the Democratic primary and make history by nominating an old, white male senator for president of the United States.
Kay
@Paul in KY:
You might be interested in this:
Cats and dogs! :)
I think the “sharing” services are nervous about how they’re perceived- nobody wants their business portrayed as a deadbeat.
Linnaeus
Good long read in The Atlantic about the “democritization” of financial insecurity in the US:
Paul in KY
@Kay: If it’s good for SEIU, then I’m for it. Personally, I have not had a lot of success on Airbnb. They can discriminate (do not have to ‘rent’ to first-come-first-served), and I guess I’m not cool enough for the convenient-to-the-fest properties I’ve tried to rent.
The Thin Black Duke
@OzarkHillbilly: Ironically, his quixotic and doomed presidential campaign will probably be the worse decision Bernie has ever made. Besides being exposed as a Not Ready For Prime Time player (the hardest and most damaging blows to his candidacy have been self-afflicted), his mask slipped off and what we’ve seen behind it isn’t pretty.
Linnaeus
Paging Kay:
Adjusting to economic shocks tougher than thought:
Bobby Thomson
Yglesias is clueless. Shocker. None of those primaries had the runner up basing his campaign on convincing young voters the Democratic Party is corrupt and must be destroyed.
father pussbucket
In other “Lest We Forget” news:
Trump solemnly recalls the 7-11 attacks
geg6
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
I have become more and more convinced that the vast majority of online Sanders supporters are actually Paulistas. Which would explain the nasty idiocy that they display all the fucking time.
I can’t wait for this primary to be over. I never hated the Hilbots the way I am now starting to hate the Bernistas.
Paul in KY
@Linnaeus: Coming back after losing all your money is hard…whodathunk?!
Vheidi
@PsiFighter37: hah, that’s interesting/funny. Mr vh works the polls, finally in our nabe in bkln, he’s got scanner duty this time. I like voting late so I can see turnout.
Oh, and Hils, of course.
Linnaeus
@Paul in KY:
It is. But it’s disappointing how many people don’t seem to get that.
Paul in KY
@father pussbucket: It’s burned into my memory…they hit us about 0200, sappers came for the slushy machine, we caught them in a crossfire from the lotto dispensers & the porno rack…didn’t phase em, I’ll always remember the sound that slushy machine made when it blew…can still see the blue goo everywhere.
Kay
@Paul in KY:
The ‘independent contractor/temp” landscape has gotten so complicated for people. I look at their pay receipt (on their phone, which still makes me laugh-ask a 20 year old for anything and they hand you their phone) and I can’t figure out who they work for.
Chris
@SectionH:
Losing a few voters like that is normal. (I’m sure there were “PUMAs” who stayed out of it in 2008, just not anywhere near the tidal wave they predicted). It only really becomes dangerous if they have a third party candidate to actually rally around. They’ll never draw more than a handful of votes, but in an era as polarized as this one, it doesn’t take much – see Nader.
I doubt if Sanders has that in mind. But I’m still really hoping Trump does.
Paul in KY
@Linnaeus: To me, it’s either that these folks are so insulated from that calamity, that they can’t process it or they think THEY would overcome that calamity, so the ones that don’t are losers all, or they’re just being paid not to understand it.
Paul in KY
@Kay: They probably already know, but I would be emphasizing to them that you need to get a job where you can figure out who you work for, with benefits, etc. Appears to be so much harder now than it was when I was in my 20s.
Kropadope
@geg6:
JMG
I am sure the vast majority of Sanders supporters just want a candidate who’s more on the left. Unfortunately, Sanders has attracted a considerable number of followers through his explicit claim to be morally superior to politics as a human activity. So on the Web, we get the “My support for Sanders makes me more virtuous than you or anybody else” crowd, who of course alienate any possible new supporters.
Kay
This is nice:
We have a mock vote at the high school here in Presidential years. Obama won both times, which was heartening- it’s a conservative county. It was a headline in the local paper in ’08 but they buried it in the back in ’12.
Linnaeus
@Paul in KY:
Yeah, pretty much.
Trouble is, our continued failure to face up to this problem (and the problems discussed in the Atlantic piece I linked upthread) or casting it as only being the province of “losers” has some nasty implications for our political future. We may even be seeing some of that now in the primaries.
Chyron HR
@Kropadope:
Remember, kids, only Clinton supporters can engage in “nasty idiocy”, If you think you see a Sanders supporter doing so, they’re just an “unverifiable rando” who doesn’t count, because shut up, that’s why.
Kropadope
@Chyron HR: No, I tell them so or, if they’re some random idiot on my Facebook feed as is usually the case, I block them. When you lot are here talking about some random encounter on Facebook or Twitter, that’s an unverifiable rando.
I’m complaining about you assholes larding up threads with Bernie sucks times infinity that it has long since really gotten tiring to read and respond to. Fortunately for all of us, I’m a bit of a masochist.
Iowa Old Lady
@satby: I noticed it was something like 500 comments so I did not go there. That’s a sure sign it went off the rails.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@geg6:
Starting?
For me, it was the day of the MA primary when the bros all realized that the viral Warren endorsement of Bernie was phony, and thousands of hateful disgusting threatening posts were actually posted to Warren’s real FB page. That’s gamergate red pill bullshit, and as much as I had seen of Sanders and his finger wagging and found it distasteful and disrespectful, it was his supporters that augured me into Hillary’s side.
mdblanche
@Bruce K: Ack!
scav
I’m taking a certain amount of mild amusement in watching the American semi-media wrestle with the whole 7-11 v. 7/11 distinction.
bemused
We have entered Berniebro and Hillaryite hell, the campaign stage when people lose their minds. I remember being very annoyed with HIllary’s previous campaign tactics in the last stages up to the Dem prez nomination. Bernie/Hillary battle is much worse. I still think it was great that Bernie in the race brought a lot more focus on important issues and caused Hillary to talk about those issues in more depth.
Now I worry that the flaws in Bernie’s campaign from cultish crazy supporters to bad campaign staffers/spokespersons and fuzzy Bernie explanations how he could get his pet policies accomplished are going to water down the importance of the issues he is running on.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: Then that’s on you, isn’t it?
mdblanche
@efgoldman: If you can’t trust the least disgraced Republican ex-speaker, who can you trust?
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke: Far be it from me to change a ten year habit of coming here over a few months of toxic assholishness. I remember 2008, this will pass.
Kropadope
@mdblanche:
He left his job leading that particular viper pit, he can’t be all bad.
magurakurin
@Kropadope:
sucks to be you.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: Hey, if hammering your head against a wall repeatedly is your kink, then by all means carry on. Have fun.
Kropadope
@magurakurin: Sucks worse to be you. You have become the monster you feared. Behold, the Clinton-bro!!!!!!!
benw
I’m dramatically less nasty than 2008, I took a shower this morning!
satby
@Linnaeus:
My youngest sister shocked me the other day while we were discussing how hard it’s been for me to find a decent (not good, decent) job in my area. Her comment was something to the effect that I had never “really stuck with anything long enough to have a compelling job history”, as well as my lack of degree. I was in retail management for 10 years, spent 5+ years as a paralegal, and over 20 years in IT, with 13 years at the same company. I advanced farther than people with degrees and since I was in the workforce in the mid-70s, a degree wasn’t a prerequisite like it is now.
So yeah, trouble is assumed to be a personal failing almost always, evidence be damned (because I see that all the time, and not just about me). I think most people feel too insecure themselves to be able to admit the truth: everyone is vulnerable to fate and few can accumulate enough to ride out a bad year, or longer.
satby
@Iowa Old Lady: yeah, last night it was amusing early on, but a T-Bogg unit is always a bad sign.
PJ
@bemused: There’s so much hate directed at Bernie in these comments (and in last night’s), but not one discussion of why Hillary’s policies are better than his. Anyone who supports Bernie must be a malicious fool, because some random person said something mean to someone on Facebook.
Barbara
@OzarkHillbilly: What is his alternative? Anarchy? I sometimes divide the world into two kinds of people, those who want to stand out as being peerless in some way — whether it’s food, religion or politics, or anything, really, and those who see it as their mission to bring others along, and who want to reach others, sometimes to a fault. Obama is in the latter category, and Sanders is in the former. Hillary, like most people, is somewhere in between. So I don’t think Sanders is an anarchist, I think he likes the order precisely because it gives him the opportunity to put himself out as better than most other people, the same way some people’s lives would totally lose meaning if everyone stopped eating junk food and moved to a vegan diet that prominently features kale. Likewise, I have come to see Obama’s overly optimistic efforts to reach Republicans as a kind of weakness, though a much less infuriating one, because its focus is on inclusion, not exclusion. Sanders is an excluder by nature and that’s why his appeal is always going to be limited. It’s a feature, not a bug, of who he wants to be.
scav
@benw: mm! There’s a trend to consider. Mind if I finish my coffee first?
magurakurin
@Kropadope: nope, doesn’t suck at all. In fact I’m packing for a two week trip to Lisbon.
Bernie Sanders isn’t going to be the nominee. If he decides to go third party, his choice. He’ll officially become the biggest piece of shit in the world if he does though. But, people are going to do what they are going to do. Not much I can do about it. Nor you either.
DCF
@magurakurin:
Magurakurin,
Truer words….
But HEY!…if HRC wins the Democratic nomination (and the General Election), I win!…as a ‘top ten-percenter’, my portfolio/dividend income will skyrocket…what’s that you say?…what about the bottom 90% of the nation’s population whose standard of living and income/wealth will regress further as a result?…we’re living in a Second Gilded Age, dontchaknow!…support the ‘professional/creative class’ at all costs, and don’t concern yourself with those whom the meritocratic elite believe are undeserving – and unwanted, apart from their votes!
Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
DINOs forever!….
Linnaeus
@satby:
Yep. The Atlantic piece that I linked upthread goes into this a fair amount. The attitude that if one doesn’t “make it” in America, then one is a failure is pervasive.
Shell
Yikes. I had to Google him in a is-he-still-alive query. Its surprising that he’s so completely dropped out of politics.
Emma
@bemused:
What does this mean? No matter what issues he’s running on, it is useless if he doesn’t have a plan for implementing solutions based on those issues. “I will dazzle them/threaten them/impress them into doing whatever I want” isn’t a plan.
magurakurin
@PJ:
It has been done countless times. Most people are over it. It’s beating a dead horse at this point. No policy discussions ever lead to anything, since the conclusion of most of the bernfeelers was that she is lying and doesn’t mean anything she says.
It’s over. Whether or not the Sanders’ campaign and its supporters will ever admit it is an open question.
JMG
@PJ: Except for Israel (a big except for sure) there isn’t all that much difference between Sanders and Clinton on what policy outcomes are desirable. Sanders is proposing what he believes to be faster means of reaching those outcomes. I voted for Clinton in the Mass primary because I believe she would be better able to get the country moving, however slowly,, towards those outcomes than would Sanders. Also, there’s the trains running on time aspect of the Presidency. I have to believe Clinton would be a far better administrator than Sanders. So there’s one answer to your question.
Kropadope
@Barbara:
I disagree. It may have seemed distracting and possibly made the fight for the ACA draw out longer than it necessarily needed to, but I think his efforts are key to his enduring personality (such as it may exist in our polarized environment) and the current Republican bedlam.
Joel
@Paul in KY: Airbnb quality/value has dropped dramatically as property managers increasingly spam their crappy properties with misleading photos on service. They bypass some of the better filters by strongly encouraging people who stay at their properties to leave good reviews. In this fashion, you can’t really trust reviews anymore. That’s too bad, because we’ve had great success in the past.
LesBonnesFemmes
@Jeffro: I am an old fart that hardy likes any new music, at all. But I do love me some White Denim. (And poor Amy Winehouse, Lily Allen, and MGMT.)
Kropadope
@JMG:
Ah, so the Mussolini platform?
magurakurin
@DCF:
Immigrants, the Poor and Minorities Gain Sharply Under Affordable Care Act
JMG
@Kropadope: Successful Presidents are good administrators. Look how scandal-free the Obama administration has been. This doesn’t happen by accident.
LAO
I voted. Polling place pretty well attended. Was slightly disappointed no fist fights broke out.
chopper
@MomSense:
I hope nobody at work gives you any grief about being orange. if they do just say “it ain’t easy bein’ cheesy”.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Chris Matthews asked, with apparent seriousness, if this story was a sign of pandering to Hispanic voters.
DCF
@magurakurin:
Health Care Gains, but Income Remains Stagnant, the White House Reports
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/us/politics/census-bureau-poverty-rate-uninsured.html?action=click&contentCollection=Health&module=RelatedCoverage®ion=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article
John D
@PJ: See what you did just there? Stop it. It’s exactly what you are complaining about.
Bernie’s laser-focus on the bankers and their effect upon the economy ignores very, very real problems in this country. His claim that the institutional racism and sexism found here is a byproduct of economic inequality is not borne out by and study nor real-world experience. I believe Hillary’s focus on those two issues will bear far more fruit for the country than the policies Sanders is advocating. I think Hillary’s community college plan is both more workable, reasonable, and inherently better than the Bernie plan covering higher education. I think the Clinton plans for the expansion of the ACA are far less disruptive in both the short- and long-term for our economy and our healthcare system than the Sanders’ plan for single payer, and furthermore, I believe they are more likely to get passed in Congress. Not all at once, but one piece at a time. Sanders plan cannot be passed in small bites — there is no way to take baby steps. His NYDN interview terrified me because it showed me that his laser focus had no depth either.
Lots of us have explained repeatedly why we support Clinton and her policies. Only to have YET ANOTHER asshole show up and #feelthebern at us, calling us insufficiently pure. I regret my vote for him in my primary. I was happy he was in the race, but I feel like my vote has enabled he, his campaign, and his supporters to continue on, getting progressively (hah!) more strident in their demands to be coddled and courted, or they will take their ball and go home and we’ll be sorry, we’ll see. I’m officially over all of them. Not because “some random person said something mean on Facebook”, but because his campaign staff and his most vocal supporters are gangrenous cysts on the body politic. Should the heavens fall and he get the nomination, I’d vote for him because the GOP is infinitely worse, but I’ve gone from “Enh, either is cool” to “We need to elect Clinton” to “I’ll hold my nose, but I won’t be happy if I have to vote for him”. Congratulations! You are part of a movement! I mean, it’s a movement to get me to drink, but still, good job. You are accomplished!
Chris
@PJ:
I’m actually much happier with the outrage of the last month or so because it actually is directed at Bernie (largely because he himself has been behaving in a way that warrants it). Maybe it’s just me, but there was a while there where it seemed like half the anti-Berniebro screeds had an “it’s not Bernie himself, and I’m sure most of his supporters aren’t like that, BUT” disclaimer embedded into them, leaving me to wonder “well if it’s not him and it’s not most of his supporters then why the hell do you care so much?” Politician on the campaign trail counts a bunch of douchebags among his supporters. News at eleven. When it’s directed at something he actually said or did, and not (to quote you) “some random person said something mean to someone on Facebook” (or Balloon Juice), then I’m listening.
And no, I’m not worried about the hate directed at Sanders. Politicians are in a business where this kind of thing happens all the time. It may be unfortunate, but it’s frankly healthy if you want them to survive – one reason why, despite all the vitriol that gets tossed around, I find primary battles to be healthy. The Republicans will do a lot worse to whoever wins than they or even their worst supporters have been doing to each other.
Kropadope
@JMG: Right, but the metaphor you chose to describe the concept of “good administration” is linked to a notorious fascist dictator. As a compulsive wiseass, I could not let that slide.
Also, train schedules seem to be an awfully mundane thing for a modern American President to be focused on. How about improving rail infrastructure? Improving access to public transportation? Freight security?
Emma
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Jesus Christ. Is that man so ignorant? Yes, of course he is.
Barbara
@Kropadope: Yes, perhaps, and a lot of what his “open to all sides” personality has shown is how utterly closed the opposition is to anything. I have to keep myself from rolling my eyes when people refer to Obama as “polarizing.” The only polarizing force at work where Obama is concerned is the virtually magnetic repulsion some people have to Obama’s dark skin.
negative 1
@Iowa Old Lady: I skipped to the bottom here but as I see it’s not much better… the irony is that both candidate’s supporters seem to be way more pissed at each other than the candidates do. There is a conversation to be had about the contrasts in both candidates but we seem to be doing our best to avoid it. Even if someone makes a point about a particular candidate’s plan they get personally attacked; heck yesterday I was called a troll for asking for HRC supporters to give me some good talking points to use to get our membership excited about voting for her in the general.
To be honest I feel like whatever lost momentum or sense of ‘grin and bear it’ voting the Dems experience in the general is no one’s fault but our own. HRC is winning and will win and rather than say stuff like Hillary may not want to break up banking oligopolies but she does want to prevent unregulated credit lending through Dodd-Frank (with two pelts so far to her argument’s credit) we say ‘you only like Bernie cause you’re a Bernie bro and you’re sexist’ and other such shit. We rail on the rethugs for being substance free, someone show me the substantive debate above me.
Peale
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, at least it isn’t Sriracha. I don’t want her pandering to the hipster voter.
benw
Oooh, look at @scav over here with your fancy coffee!
Calouste
@PJ:
Well, it’s a discussion we can’t have at the moment, because Sanders doesn’t have policies, he just has slogans. Just read the NYDN interview where he fell apart when the interviewers asked about things that were just a little bit under the surface. He couldn’t even explain how he was going to break up the banks.
magurakurin
@DCF: What can anyone tell you? Write in Bernie’s name on your ballot. Do what you think is best.
Kropadope
@Peale: I liked Sriracha for a little while but I since moved on to Cholula.
Shell
@Peale: Its a particular brand of Sriracha
John D
@negative 1:
Because that’s a troll question. You aren’t asking for a policy debate, you are specifically asking for “talking points”. Her entire platform is available on her website. Go read it.
If you have to be excited to vote for a Democrat in the fall, you aren’t paying attention. The GOP is running an explicit theocrat modeled after the Taliban and an explicit fascist. Hillary and Bernie have differences of degree, not kind.
Kropadope
@Calouste:
The New York Times, which has endorsed Hillary Clinton, printed an article that says otherwise.
negative 1
@John D: “His claim that the institutional racism and sexism found here is a byproduct of economic inequality is not borne out by and study nor real-world experience.” I disagree, and it’s an old socialist argument that dates back to Marx himself. Most racism in this country (Irish are drunks, Poles are stupid, Mexicans are lazy) has at its core the immigrant group moving in being used as cheap labor to undercut wages. I agree that the racism has metastasized and is more complex than that now, but the argument is that there is absolutely no political mechanism to deal with it. I also will point out that there has really never been a country that has successfully legislated racism away other than removing racist laws of it’s own original making, but most institutional racism at this point is not so blatant.
Incidentally how does the free community college plan work? Can anyone take any class at any time for free? Wouldn’t that require enormous capital expenditure to deal with the presumably large amount of new students? Also, wouldn’t any community college licensing programs be immediately devalued in the market since you’ll have 3 times as many applicants for the same positions as before?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Peale: isn’t Sriracha corporate?
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@PJ:
Every single one of you Bernfeelers use the same idiotic tactic, of taking a valid criticism of Bernie’s half baked pie in the sky and turning it into a high school mean girls table snotty remark that you make up in your drama queen mind and attribute to us. Regardless of your denial of the fact that Sanders supporters have been recognized by internet, print and broadcast media, here and abroad, to be a cult-like online irrational mob, the fact remains that it is. If you want to make up your own version of reality, put words in our mouth that you can then argue with, and then act passive aggressive when you get called out, knock yourself out somewhere else. Hopefully literally.
Barbara
@PJ: For the record, I have not been on FB for a long time, well before the Sanders campaign took off. I won’t rehash all of my disagreements with Sanders over policy, but as a general category, I think Sanders has never met or seen a problem that he does not view as the product of “income inequality” in the class struggle sense of the phrase. Not racism, not sexism, not grossly disproportionate access to K-12 education resources. I do think that he is right about some things regarding money in politics — for instance, money in politics is why France has better access to the Internet than Americans do, on average, but I think other people have distilled this issue much more effectively, in ways that allow others to think more clearly about what it really means for us, rather than seeing it as a basis for railing generally against people who have more money they do. Bernie has more money than most of his supporters. That doesn’t make him their enemy. To understand why, you need to think more deeply about how privilege amassed by others is unfairly protected and maintained through the use of policy tools.
magurakurin
@Calouste: His latest policy is to accuse Hillary Clinton and the DNC of campaign finance fraud. Heck of a guy. I wonder why the level of vitriol aimed at him is going off the scale?
John D
@Kropadope: Don’t really care what the NYT says. I read the interview.
He doesn’t know the legality of what he proposes. He doesn’t know the mechanisms by which he would do what he proposes. He doesn’t even know whether he has the authority to do what he proposes.
This is his signature issue, mentioned in every stump speech.
How does he not know these answers?
magurakurin
@Kropadope: I read the transcript and listened to the interview. Sanders is a putz. End of story. He’s a fuckwit. A divisive blow hard. But I mean that in a nice, unifying way.
DCF
@magurakurin:
Indeed I will….
The Emperor’s New Clothes : An All-Star Retelling of the Classic Fairy Tale (with Audio CD)
http://www.amazon.com/Emperors-New-Clothes-All-Star-Retelling/dp/0151004366/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1461076800&sr=1-8&keywords=the+emperor%27s+new+clothes
Hans Christian Andersen’s “The Emperor’s New Clothes,” first published in 1837, has been told and retold in hundreds of ways, but never, ever by such a star-studded cast of scribes and artists as this. Sure, we still get the vainglorious, fashion-obsessed Emperor who is duped into parading down the street in an “invisible suit of clothes.” And, of course, we still welcome the Honest Boy, the only one with enough gumption to point out that the Emperor’s fancy-pants birthday suit is exactly that–a birthday suit. In this quirky, comical version, however, the story is crafted from the diverse, occasionally vulgar, often charming narrative perspectives of the Emperor’s entire entourage–from his servants to the Spinning Wheel to the Imperial Dresser’s spectacles to His Royal Highness’s own underwear–all of whom have very good, self-invested reasons for not wanting to reveal that the Emperor’s new clothes are nonexistent, however expensive. A smart-alecky moth, drawn by the beloved illustrator Quentin Blake, ironically patches holes in the piecemeal narrative with smoothing, if not soothing, transitions.
mdblanche
@Kropadope: At least he’s not a child molester, or Newt Gingrich.
Kropadope
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Bullshit. I tried to talk nuts and bolts with you assholes for months. The average response I got was “Bernie supporters don’t believe that” or “Squirrel!!!” or “but Bernie supporters said this on my Facebook page which you will never see” or “I don’t have to dignify that with a response because Hillary is inherently better.”
Finally I gave it up and started trolling you thin-skinned assholes for giggles, but that got old fast. How some of you are managing to stay so angry so long is stunning.
magurakurin
@DCF: okay, then.
Barbara
@Kropadope: Well, calling people assholes sort of gets them going, at least in my world. All I can say is that I have tried hard to think about why I find Sanders offputting that takes it beyond the personal distaste I have for his style or that of his supporters.
BruceFromOhio
What’s that? The Kansas Experiment isn’t causing the magical conservative ponies to appear?
Conservative Sparkle Pony Magic cannot fail, it can only be failed!
Your solution is to CLAP HARDER, SUSAN.
magurakurin
@Kropadope: glad we’re keeping you entertained. Miles of smiles, that’s my motto.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Kropadope:
You are Exhibit A of the entire BJ Bernfeeler collected works. You’re all nuts.
John D
@negative 1: Oh no, we’re going to get fisted by the Invisible Hand.
“Free college”, whether by Sanders plan or Clinton’s plan, is going to devalue degrees as a resume builder, for the exact reason you mention.
The reason why Clinton’s plan is superior in my estimation is that we currently have a massive surplus of community college seats available. We have a massive deficit in 4-year slots. Most universities turn away an order of magnitude or more students that apply than are accepted, which is a primary component of the upward pressure on tuition RIGHT NOW. Sanders’ plan encourages even more to apply to 4 year universities, Clinton’s does not. Clinton’s plan fills the empty seats as a primary effect, Sanders’ as a secondary. Clinton’s plan ameliorates the stigma associated with CC, Sanders’ does not.
StellaB
@Kropadope: A point where we can agree!
Paul in KY
@Linnaeus: Agree with your analysis, Linnaeus.
Kropadope
@John D: So your analysis of Bernie’s responses is superior to one of the most influential news organizations in the world? Got it.
As the New York Times points out, the regulatory and judicial landscape for breaking up these big banks is uncertain. This is precisely why he says his preferred route is the legislative route. Breaking up the big banks isn’t an average, everyday government activity and, assuming the government decided to do so, would be a massive and complex undertaking that would be fought every step of the way. This isn’t exactly well trodden ground. We’re over a century past Teddy Roosevelt’s trust busting and living in an era where corporate growth and consolidation are well-protected.
scav
@benw: Not so fancy as all that, but I’m a bit more of a public menace without / before my am coffee. (Now tea, yes, I unexpectedly have some very fancy tea after a late-breaking xmas gift. Reschedule your mocking for about 3:30 CDT and there will be an available target in my mug.)
Technocrat
@LAO:
Be the change, LAO. Can’t just sit around waiting for someone else to throw the first chair.
=)
Kropadope
@Barbara:
Well, imagine, then, coming to a place where you have been visiting for a long time and reading thread after thread of “Class X of people you belong to suck so bad” over and over again, often without you or any other person in that class of people having posted, let alone causing trouble. Imagine trying to respond factually and getting rebuffed by insults or the condescending “you’re one of the good ones” (hint: doesn’t help).
I don’t know about you, but my response to just this situation is to point out that assholes are indeed assholes, regardless of the candidate that they support.
Barbara
@Kropadope: Not going there. I don’t do that and when it’s done to me I resist politely or exit. I never call people names. It doesn’t work, ever.
John D
@Kropadope: Hey, man, I posted the transcript. If their takeaway is different than mine, so be it.
As I said, I found his responses horrifying. He seemed to not have thought about breaking up the banks in any depth at all. As it turned out, a whole lot of people shared that viewpoint. It is deeply unsatisfying to me to have a candidate tell me repeatedly that he wants to do for the good of the country, and then NOT HAVE A FUCKING PLAN for how to do it.
And by “deeply unsatisfying” I mean “cringeworthy”.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Good thing Bernie’s already getting down to the business of endorsing four whole Congressional candidates, while filing lawsuits about Clinton’s party-wide fund-raising. Did I miss his call for his supporters to go work for Dem Senate candidates in places like Iowa and New Hampshire? Or did Maggie Hassan fail a purity test?
and what is this NYT “article” you keep referring to without a link?
Kropadope
@Barbara: Well, neither did the other approach. At least taking my anger out on the people angering me is cathartic and I can leave my mess here instead of the real world.
Uncle Cosmo
@Kropadope: O so clever. No wonder you call yourself a Dope.
Paul in KY
@Iowa Old Lady: I read about 150 & then decided I was wasting my time/life doing so.
Technocrat
@Kropadope:
I think both groups of supporters bear that particular cross. I used to read Reddit, and Daily Kos, and Booman. I avoid them now, for my sanity’s sake. BJ is rather unusual in that it leans Clinton.
Kropadope
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’ve provided the link a few times in the past. Sorry I don’t feel like reposting the same links over and over, but nevertheless…here you go.
Paul in KY
@satby: I think your youngest sister was FOS there. Maybe a relocation might help, though. I don’t know where you are physically located.
Paul in KY
@Joel: You must be cool. Now I’m trying to rent a property, that by it’s closeness to a fest, will be rented. So, it’s a seller’s market. That said, I’m always honest in my ‘pitch’. I might be one of the first to try, and I guess the renters are being choosy (knowing that there will be others).
It appears to me that renting as a couple seems to help.
Paul in KY
@LesBonnesFemmes: Have seen MGMT. They headlined one night at Bunbury a few years ago. Guess which song they did not play.
Left a bad taste in a lot of attendee’s mouths that night.
Uncle Cosmo
@Linnaeus:
A book I’m rather fond of–The Hidden Injuries of Class, by Richard Sennett & Jonathan Cobb–argued, back in 1973, that one big difference between the (then-current) European & US class structures was that while both were pervasive, the former was acknowledged & hermetically sealed, while the latter was discounted/denied & (very slightly) permeable. A blue-collar European could attribute his (it was always “his” in those days) failure to rise in social standing to conditions of birth rather than any particular shortcoming of his own. Whereas in the US, the one in 10,000 or 100,000 of the lower classes who managed to rise would be held up to the rest like a taunt: He succeeded–what’s wrong with you that you didn’t?? Throwing the responsibility for “failure to rise” on the individual. In spite of the fact that the most significant factor in “rising” is almost always luck. (And don’t give me that BS that “luck is the intersection of opportunity with preparation”. What do you prepare for? What constitutes opportunity? Both questions are by&large only answerable in retrospect. Stumbling onto a real opportunity, recognizing it, & having the preparation to take advantage of it is itself a matter of sheer luck.)
Chris
@Uncle Cosmo:
Also, worth noting that last time I checked, the U.S. had one of the lowest rates of social mobility in the West.
I wonder if it’s as simple as this: Americans imagine that there’s no such thing as class, therefore they do nothing to counteract it, therefore it remains very, very powerful. Europeans imagine that there is such a thing as class, therefore they do try to counteract it, therefore the result is that class matters less than in a country that doesn’t acknowledge it.
Chris
@Uncle Cosmo:
And whether or not that opportunity pans out is itself, also, not exclusively but in large part a matter of luck. Part of the reason we have contempt for those who don’t strike gold is that we spend so much time worshiping the people for whom these opportunities panned out, and completely ignoring those who (as we’re constantly told to do by our 1%er betters) “took a chance” only to have it blow up in their face.
(Think how many small businesses and start-ups strike gold versus how many of them crash and burn).
VFX Lurker
@cleek:
Well-done. I have taken similar steps on my Facebook feed.
Also consider hiding USUncut. It’s good at spraying misinformation and panic, but that’s about it.
Uncle Cosmo
@Barbara:
Speaking in a general theoretical sense (i.e., not imputing this to any particular campaign or candidate):
bemused
@Emma:
Bernie’s issues are important and worth working toward. His goals/dreams as he states them are hard to imagine happening in this country even if he did have plausible solutions to accomplish them. Bargain deals high till you and other party reach somewhere middle and both satisfied but you have to have something/plan that looks solid to deal in the first place or you don’t get any interested takers. Bernie doesn’t have realistic solutions that I can see so he is hurting his own causes and could well make it harder for others who do come up with workable ideas to be taken seriously.
nastybrutishntall
@LesBonnesFemmes: If you are into new music that sounds like old music, check out Bibio’s album “a Mineral Love” or Unknown Mortal Orchestra. They are retrofuturistic AM gold.
VFX Lurker
@Kropadope:
The Clinton supporters aren’t tossing the words “unqualified” and “whores” around. The Clinton supporters aren’t demeaning certain female occupations.
A former stripper wrote some words on Facebook regarding the Bernie supporters who threw $1 bills at Hillary’s motorcade. She did not appreciate those particular Bernie supporters’ conflation of stripping and prostitution, nor did she appreciate the attitude they demonstrated towards women.
catclub
@Chyron HR:
O’Malley? Huh.
Kropadope
@VFX Lurker:
Uncle Cosmo
@Chris: You may have something there. One of my dearest friends (RIP) grew up in the Netherlands & (after coming to the USA long enough to teach me HS math & get a PhD in statistics) spent 1980-2000 in Denmark. He told me that one of the reasons socialism was such an article of faith there (at the time anyway) was that as recently as a century before, rural people were effectively serfs on the estates of the landed gentry.
Uncle Cosmo
@Chris: One priceless part of the Sennett & Cobb book is the analysis of the classic rags-to-riches stories penned by Horatio Alger, where the authors note that the key event in each of the tales is that the plucky/earnest/upright/etc. young boy is noticed for those qualities by a rich man who thereby decides to mentor him & advance his career–whereupon the kid is off to the races, IOW the rise of the protagonist is the product of his qualities combined with the luck to be at the right place at the right time to be noticed & the whim of a tycoon.
Uncle Cosmo
@catclub: That’s just soooooo droll. As a personal friend of Governor O’Malley, who has been a staunch Democrat and tireless supporter of both the Party and other Democratic candidates his entire career, let me cordially invite you to go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw.
Chris
@Uncle Cosmo:
I think in the United States, there’s also this: from the start, this country has defined itself against the values of “Old Europe” with its impenetrable class system and aristocracy and divine rights of kings and, generally speaking, the whole notion that your birth determined your place in life. And we continued to define ourselves that way with the whole “American Dream” and its immigrant component for the next two hundred years. Tired of living in Europe? Come here, work hard, and you can be anything you want to be.
Acknowledging that the “American Dream” has broken down, that America is no longer that country and that, in fact, much of Europe at this point is better at it than we are, isn’t just an admission that the country isn’t the best ever, it’s an admission that it’s failed in its basic “mission” (if there is such a thing).
It’s not entirely unlike the Soviet Union in its latter days. The society that was originally founded as an antithesis to class-based “Old Europe;” but at some point, that classless society went from being an ideal to be striven for to being a point of pride that everyone was supposed to believe had already been achieved… even as Party apparatchiks were obviously setting themselves up as a de facto aristocracy. Cue the increasing divergence between self-image and reality, between stated values and reality.
Socraticsilence
@efgoldman:
PUMAs- 2008 had the candidate in the Bernie position openly allude to assassination as a reason to stay in when she was mathematically dead.
Paul in KY
@Chris: Excellent point, Chris.
Jeffro
@Paul in KY: those two were the standouts … In a pretty different vein, the new Cult album is terrific and they were outstanding live at the Fillmore last week.
Jeffro
@LesBonnesFemmes: cool (re: WD) – that’s three of us!
gvg
when I was younger, the statistics said America had more social mobility. things changed. Its been a long time since I was young though. People don’t always notice that things change. Funny that.
As far as I can see we need to tax the upper income and corporations higher and also more effectively. Which doesn’t just mean more laws, it means more IRS agents with budgets to audit. Higher inheritance taxes IMO. investment income taxed the same as work.
Then it will take time to go back to some equality. What happened is that people and corporations that made it high, tried to fix their status in place which froze out new people and companies from getting up.
Bruce K
@mdblanche: That, and don’t forget “thbbft”.
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2015/09/bloom-countys-bill-and-opus-are-running-for-president-again/
J R in WV
@negative 1:
And voila, his trollishness is revealed:
Bringing in historical prejudices that no longer exist and comparing them to today’s hatred of people of color is a lame attempt to divert attention away from the fact that Senator Sanders has no grasp of the reality of modern American racism. President Obama has practically been banned from executing the powers of the presidency because of the racism of Republican political leaders! Not because he is part Polish or Mexican, but because his skin is dark and his father was African/
Senator McConnell swore to make President Obama a one term president, which didn’t happen – Obama won a strong re-election in 2012. But now, months before the election and inauguration, Republican Senate leaders refuse to even consider the President’s nominee for Supreme Court Justice.
What has all this got to do with monetary inequality??
Nothing.
Fixing economic issues is important, but it has nothing to do with racism, and even less to do with sexism and the desire of pin-heads to control women’s bodies. These are issues that Hillary Clinton is fully aware of and capable of addressing. Senator Sanders can’t even see these issues, and so is not well qualified for the office he seeks.
End of story.
But wait, there’s more: his supporters are running crazed. I believe that many of them are former participants in Gamer Gate, a sexist rampage against women. The same illegal scare techniques are being used against supporters of Ms Clinton. And Senator Sanders isn’t doing anything, not even speaking out against terrible activities by his supporters. That’s right up against evil threats of violence. Cozy with sexism.
In the beginning of this election cycle I was not very aware of Senator Sanders except as a leftist, and since I’m pretty far in that direction in many ways, I was in general happy to see him running.
But now I’m done with it. Lazy thinking, unethical practices, speeches with veiled references to Republican talking points about his opponent. Done with it.
Tell your friends that they should vote for the progressive candidate who will make their lives better: Hillary Clinton. Her ideas are common-sense and can be implemented step-wise, unlike Sanders’ ideas, which are unformed and impossible in our political system today.
End of story.
Chris T.
Sheesh, don’t they all know the answer is Canada?
Wikpedia knows:
Paul in KY
@Jeffro: Gonna have to get that new Cult album. I saw them up in Cinn. a couple years ago. Great show. They played 2 sets. Only downer was I broke my camera before the show (dropped it on concrete) & I have no pics at all from that one.