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Hot air and ill-informed banter

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These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.

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Donald Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Yet Another Reason to Rejoice for the Tubman $20 (Open Thread)

Reader Interactions

405Comments

  4. 4.

    ? Martin

    Actually, the subtitle should be “My father bought my mother’s freedom for $20. What useless shit are you buying?”

  5. 5.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    There’s been some ….interesting… memes around this. This one is pretty funny. My oldest friend who is gay and black and male wishes it was Dinah Washington or Lena Horne or Diahnne Carroll.

  6. 6.

    Benw

    @aimai: it would be fun to organize a drive to get people to donate a Tubman (or equivalent $20 online donation!) to charities helping poor minority kids when the bills go live.

    TUBMANS 4 TOTS

  8. 8.

    Schlemazel Khan

    Just popped in on my lunch – discovered it was technocrat who suggested the new nym. His reward will be to torch the townof his choice when I start my pacification drive across America!

    Schlemazel Khan will forever end parmesean rancor!

  9. 9.

    guachi

    I’d prefer a portrait of Harriet Tubman and anyone else on my money to be from whatever age they were when they were most famous for doing whatever they were most famous for.

    I don’t want long white-bearded Charles Darwin on my money. I want 45 year-old Darwin from Origin of the Species time frame.

    And I don’t want 63 year-old Harriet Tubman (like the photo you have), I want Tubman from her 30s when she was helping slaves escape.

  10. 10.

    Miss Bianca

    LOL! Just what I needed after the realization has sunk in that, after *two* UPS delivery fuck-ups, I’m going to have to spend $200 to ship a product via common carriet to a customer who will.not.accept. a refund on a $20 product, but insists that it be shipped to him regardless. I just wish I could SEND this image to him along with his return receipt. Not good form, of course, but private delectation is delicious! Thank you, Betty Cracker! ; )

    ETA: Aaaannd..as tho’ he’s heard me…he has JUST called to cancel! Yay!!

  11. 11.

    ? Martin

    @guachi: Maybe we can cut a deal with the republicans – 30-year-old Tubman using her pistol to shoot a slave owner in the dick. Fictional, but there’s a little bit for everyone in that.

  15. 15.

    Keith P.

    Sigh….just had an insurance adjuster, my mortgage company, and a couple of home buyers look at my (slowly drying) house this afternoon. I turn 40 next month and decided to just dump everything but my most prized possessions, move, and start my life over. If I didn’t have end-stage renal disease and a couple of cats, I’d probably go be a beach bum for a few years (been programming since I was 8, and I’m hitting that midlife crisis point where everything up to this point has been for naught).
    On the plus side, it looks like my worst-case scenario is that I’ll get out of my house owing $20k on it. Not a great debt for a beach bum, but pretty damn manageable for a senior programmer.

  16. 16.

    Mnemosyne

    @guachi:

    To be fair, there aren’t a lot of images of Tubman in her 30s since that was when she was James Bond-ing it up throughout the South and didn’t want people to know what she looked like.

  19. 19.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @guachi:
    There are better pictures. I saw a couple that were younger. She still looks weary (gosh I can’t imagine why!) but not so harsh. Remember the style of the time was no smiling during photos so there are no ‘happy’ pictures from the time.

  22. 22.

    Miss Bianca

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Oh, man, that is *amazing*. I am gonna bookmark that and send it out to any butt-hurt white BernieBros who are complaining. One of my college dorm-mates on my FB feed (mistake – was checking for a PM) was just this morning complaining about HRC’s “arrogance” and how she just expects to be handed the nomination. And I’m like…dude. You call yourself a feminist and a friend to POC. And you just.don’t.get.it. Maybe he’ll take the gospel from Al Giordano.

    ETA: see above, comment 20, for a *perfect* example of the type.

  27. 27.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Miss Bianca: Yaay for you indeed. The power of Harriet Tubman. I so wish that Wilma Mankiller could be on the back, as a special fuck you to Johnson the Genocidal Asshole. And imagine also how well threats like that would work with orders from jerks…

  28. 28.

    ? Martin

    @Keith P.: So sorry to hear that. The only advice I have to offer as someone who has done the reboot (and watched his father go through it later in life) is that if you go into it with the right attitude, it can be quite positively transformative. There are benefits to a clean (if somewhat indebted) sheet of paper that you may not yet see, so try and look for those opportunities as you find your ability to put things behind you.

  29. 29.

    Brachiator

    @aimai:

    I am AMAZINGLY excited by this development. I wonder how many people plan to frame their first Tubman?

    I’ve already 3D printed a batch. Want to buy some?

  30. 30.

    Betty Cracker

    @Trollhattan: Good lord. When my mom lived in Tampa years ago, there was a house a few blocks away where people kept three or four big cats — including a tiger and panther, IIRC. This was an urban neighborhood! I was always amazed it was allowed. Seems, I dunno, kinda dangerous!

  31. 31.

    goblue72

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Because this is EXACTLY the kind of thing to endear a pompous Boomer to Millennials – its not like his generation hasn’t fucked everything up or anything:

    “My central mission in the coming months will be to rescue the idealistic millennials from the “beautiful loser” left, because they’re ok”

    Not condescending. At all.

  32. 32.

    Trollhattan

    For those scoring at home, this will not be categorized “terrorism.”

    At least seven people have been killed in “execution-style killings” at three homes near each other in rural Ohio. It is believed the victims – five adults and two children – are from the same family, the state’s attorney general said in a statement. They were all shot to death, he said, but there have been no arrests and no “active shooter” situation.

    More than a dozen officials from multiple agencies were sent to crime scenes in Piketon, south of Columbus. A pastor at the scene said the violence may have been the result of a “domestic situation”.

    Clearly, the answer is “arm families.”

  33. 33.

    Roger Moore

    @guachi:

    I’d prefer a portrait of Harriet Tubman and anyone else on my money to be from whatever age they were when they were most famous for actually doing whatever they were most famous for.

    FTFY, and not in an ironic sense; I think you slightly garbled what you were trying to say. We want a picture of them when they were out there doing the stuff they got famous for, not from when they had the established fame and everyone was drawing or photographing them. For some people- presidents, performers, etc- those tend to be the same time, but for people like scientists and authors they can be a very long time apart.

  34. 34.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA: Hi Iggy and Muppet. I can’t comment at your place because FYWP. I just can’t manage the concept of logging into a WP account today. So I’ll talk to you there some day when I can.

  36. 36.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @goblue72:

    Truth hurts. I get it. Al Giordano has seen enough of you guys, took names and got all your numbers.

  37. 37.

    goblue72

    @Miss Bianca: I know many activist feminists and POC who support Sanders over Clinton. Many of whom are SUCCESSFUL activists and have accomplished a hell of a lot more positive social change that has translated into legislative action than anything Giordano has even accomplished.

    But they just don’t happen to be over the age of 50, so I guess they don’t count.

    Such such utter bullshit.

  38. 38.

    The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016

    My little girl’s now at the vet’s, waiting pickup for cremation. I broke up in tears, she still looked like she was just curled up sleeping. I’ve been doing a lot of hugging and cuddling with her brother, the fuzzybutt. I’m going to spoil him so much.

  40. 40.

    Trollhattan

    @Betty Cracker:
    It’s a head-scratcher why some folks are attracted to critters that might just eat them. Friend of mine got to know Dick Dale a bit, who regaled him with tales of his exotic animal collecting habits. As it turns out, he wasn’t making it up.

  44. 44.

    Cacti

    @goblue72:

    Because this is EXACTLY the kind of thing to endear a pompous Boomer to Millennials – its not like his generation hasn’t fucked everything up or anything:

    “My central mission in the coming months will be to rescue the idealistic millennials from the “beautiful loser” left, because they’re ok”

    Not condescending. At all.

    Someone said butthurt white BernieBro, and you show up like they lit the Bat Signal.

    Go figure.

  46. 46.

    Miss Bianca

    @goblue72: Yes, you keep touting these wonderful, wonderful social justice-y connections of yours. All these wonderful, wonderful things you allegedly do yourself. Yes, I get it – you love humankind. It’s just PEOPLE you can’t stand. Particularly those “people over 50” who are, according to you, responsible for fucking up the world *just for you*, you special snowflake, you, just…because. That’s how we roll, we eeevvilll Boomers. Yawn. Bored now.

  48. 48.

    Cacti

    @Schlemazel Khan:

    indeed, if you read all the tweets you will see he is blaming the boomers of the left.

    This.

    Giordano’s calling out the geriatric campus radicals who grew old, but never grew up (see Sanders, Bernard (I-VT)).

  49. 49.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Keith P.:

    OMG, Keith- how troubling! We’re all on your team so keep us updated. Many blessings on this journey.

  51. 51.

    Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA

    @The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016: Aw hell, I’m sorry.

    My FB feed is showing me my posts from this day last year — this was when I began the short vet ordeal that led to my Smudge crossing the bridge a couple of days later. The hole they leave in your heart never really goes away – I think over time you just find new places in your heart for new fuzzbutts.

    @Keith P.: Damn. You have treatment options, I hope?

  53. 53.

    Miss Bianca

    @The Sheriff Endorses Baud 2016: Ooohh….so sorry! That’s such a hard moment. I was so unhinged by seeing my Sovay’s body in the freezer at the vet’s, awaiting the cremation, that I almost couldn’t go thru’ with it. Had this wild notion that somehow I could just keep her intact forever, or for just a little longer, just till I get used to it. Didn’t help to realize I would *never* be used to it. Hugs over the Intertubez to you.

  56. 56.

    ? Martin

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yeah, I’d say that’s pretty spot-on. It doesn’t really explore the branch that bothers me of not having an implementable plan around the ideas, but I think that follows logically from the overall argument.

    Steve Jobs had a saying “Real artists ship.” He believed that good ideas are only valued as good ideas if they are implemented. Basically, you have to succeed at your activism in order for your ideas to have merit. The ‘Fight for 15’ was argued as an unrealistic idea (I certainly had my doubts) but CA and NY have delivered and that idea looks a hell of a lot smarter now. Too many democrats seem focused on trying to win a bumper sticker war and not on delivering real policy change for the people that need it and that’s been my general critique of the Sanders campaign and many of his supporters. The ideas aren’t necessarily bad, but there needs to be something behind them – even the idea that the system is corrupt.

  58. 58.

    Roger Moore

    @Trollhattan:

    For those scoring at home, this will not be categorized “terrorism.”

    It sounds a lot more like domestic violence than terrorism. The best bet is that the killer was related to the victims and was acting on some kind of sick grudge. That’s very different from terrorism. OTOH, I think the Charleston shootings clearly were terrorism, and it was pathetic how afraid people were to call them that.

  59. 59.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Keith P.: That’s rough. I’m sorry you’re having to fight with so much now. It must be hugely demoralizing. Please try to get help for these things. Nobody benefits by your suffering, and you pay taxes to support the safety net and the legal framework (such as it is) so don’t be ashamed to take advantage of it (such as it is).

    Hang in there. We’re pulling for you.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  62. 62.

    Miss Bianca

    @Cacti: And boy howdy, do I know a lot of *them*! Seems like all the people I know who are doing the “dear Leader” thing the hardest over BS are all over the age of 60. It’s like listening to them reminisce about how exciting it was to plot blowing up the ROTC offices on campus. And don’t talk *policies*, man…and how we get to workable policies! That’s so SQUARE.

  63. 63.

    ? Martin

    @goblue72:

    I know many activist feminists and POC who support Sanders over Clinton. Many of whom are SUCCESSFUL activists and have accomplished a hell of a lot more positive social change that has translated into legislative action than anything Giordano has even accomplished.

    But they just don’t happen to be over the age of 50, so I guess they don’t count.

    Actually he acknowledges those supporters. I do as well – I think most Sanders supporters fall in this camp, they just aren’t the loudest and most defensive supporters.

  64. 64.

    NonyNony

    @goblue72:

    Because this is EXACTLY the kind of thing to endear a pompous Boomer to Millennials – its not like his generation hasn’t fucked everything up or anything:

    That’s pretty much what he says there:

    It is thus the perfect cocktail for the emergence of the “Bernie Bro,” who, again, is not a millennial but the aging white male activist

    Basically he seems to be saying “There’s a certain stripe of left-leaning Boomer who has never succeeded at anything in their political activism, and they’re screwing up the younger generation of leftists. Someone needs to help these kids understand that there’s a good reason these left-leaning Boomers never accomplished much and they really shouldn’t be repeating their mistakes.”

    You may see it as condescending, and I’d agree a bit in that anything old people say to young people is kinda condescending. But he’s also right that there are a whole lot of failures in the white male Boomer left-leaning activist group who seem to value tactics over accomplishments, and really nobody should be following their examples these days.

  66. 66.

    Frankensteinbeck

    I am a man not much given to schadenfreude. I consider it immoral, even. But I confess great pleasure at knowing just how many people will feel shame and anger when they have to give a cashier a dollar bill with a picture of a black woman on it.

    @Betty Cracker:
    It is fantastically dangerous. If you keep large cats as pets, they will probably be your cause of death. They can be tamed and become as friendly and loving as regular cats. You know that time your cat felt playful and bit your hand? When a lion does that, you die. Remember when a tiger mauled Roy (of Siegfried and Roy)? It was spooked by the audience, and tried to grab its beloved human – by the head, of course, like it would a kitten – and carry him away from the threat. Standard policy of zoos is that if a lion or tiger escapes, you don’t try to recapture it, you just shoot it dead. Trying to take it alive raises the odds of human death way too high.

  68. 68.

    starscream

    The Giordano tweets are amazing. They summarize both why the BernieBros have lost and why Sanders has hardly any legislative successes. (Note that Obama got healthcare for 20 million people and climbing.)

  73. 73.

    Roger Moore

    @? Martin:

    The ‘Fight for 15’ was argued as an unrealistic idea (I certainly had my doubts) but CA and NY have delivered and that idea looks a hell of a lot smarter now.

    I think the “Fight for 15” is a good example of how working the Overton Window really works. They started out demanding something that people saw as unreasonable, but at least they managed to get it into the topic of conversation. And they probably aren’t going to get $15/hour most places- right now it’s 2 states and a few other large cities- but they’ve managed to get minimum wage hikes back into the conversation as a policy issue. By asking for something apparently unreasonable, they greatly increased the chance of getting something more reasonable.

  74. 74.

    Miss Bianca

    Oh, btw…open thread, and I noted this in another thread, but it’s so awesome I’m a-gonna mention it again: HUMMINGBIRDS! First hummingbird sighting of the year! It’s really spring now, despite last weekend’s blizzard!

  75. 75.

    Origuy

    I’ve been hearing different things about the timetable for the new bills, so I went to the source. From the Treasury Department’s website:

    2. When will all the new bills be in circulation?

    The design concepts for these three notes—all of which will feature historic women—will be unveiled in 2020 in conjunction with the 100th anniversary of the 19th Amendment, which granted women the right to vote. Due to security needs, the redesigned $10 note is scheduled to go into circulation next. Secretary Lew has also directed the Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) to work closely with the Federal Reserve to accelerate work on the new $5 and $20 notes. Our goal is to have all three redesigned notes go into circulation as quickly as possible, without sacrificing the security of our currency.

    So they haven’t gotten a final design, which will take a while. Nowhere does 2030 appear; I think that’s someone’s guess. There are technical reasons why it takes a while to test new security features.
    When the new $100s came out, there was a worldwide advertising campaign to get people familiar with the new bills. They probably won’t do that with the tens, but I’ll bet they do that with the twenties. American bills are used all over the place. You don’t want some rug dealer in Tashkent thinking you are trying to pass him funny money.
    Oh, and that site has more detail about the plans for the designs. The image of Jackson on the new twenty will be of the statue of him in Lafayette Park in front of the White House. Probably hard to recognize if you didn’t know who he was.

  76. 76.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @starscream:

    Having been an early adopter of Obama’s candidacy, I clearly recall the spring of 2008 in sometimes excruciating detail – at no point did I fall in blind love with him like Sanders supporters have with pure pure St. Birdie Sanders, and at no point did I or the others I knew who were hopeful he would prevail, develop conspiracy theories or whine about how unfair and/or corrupt the system was. He just kept rolling up delegates in both caucuses and primaries, with no fucking whining drama about which votes counted more than others. Everyone I was in contact with through all the phonebanking, etc. were very well trained, organized and didn’t talk shit about the other candidate. That’s the negative comparison this time. OFA knew what they were trying to accomplish, and how to get there.

  77. 77.

    Enhanced Voting Techinques

    I am waiting for Bobo or some other such right wing intellectual to denounce Tubman for her lack of respect for property rights.

  78. 78.

    Brachiator

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    OT but related, is this Al Giordano tweet storify, which is about as good a summation of the primary as I’ve seen.

    Wow. I had no idea that people like Susan Sarandon, Rosario Dawson, Cornell West or Spike Lee were aging white male activists.

    Some of what Giordano tweets is right, but most of it is bullshit and all of it is as obnoxious as the nonsense that the worst Berniebros spew.

  79. 79.

    MazeDancer

    It always seems amazing that there are photographs of people like Harriet Tubman. And photos of the Civil War. And true Native Americans Chiefs. Seems remarkable that technology for photography is old enough to do that.

    Thought that timeline kind of works both ways – a reminder that it has not been so long since the Civil War. Or genocide. Which the current GOP as well as the reaction to taking off slaver and Trail of Tears supervisor Jackson indicates.

  83. 83.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Roger Moore:
    I think the ‘Fight For 15’ is a good example of how determined labor organization works. It’s one of the happiest signs for our country I’ve seen in a long while. That, and Scalia’s death.

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    at no point did I fall in blind love with him like Sanders supporters have with pure pure St. Birdie Sanders

    I think mostly they’ve fallen in hate with everyone who isn’t Sanders. That’s what worries me. It’s a campaign based on identifying enemies.

  84. 84.

    Cacti

    @Brachiator:

    Wow. I had no idea that people like Susan Sarandon, Rosario Dawson, Cornell West or Spike Lee were aging white male activists.

    The first two are issues tourists, the third is a clown, but you’re right, none are both white and male.

    I won’t lump Spike Lee in the same category as the other three, because he hasn’t been over the top obnoxious like the rest.

  85. 85.

    Enhanced Voting Techinques

    @MazeDancer:

    Thought that timeline kind of works both ways – a reminder that it has not been so long since the Civil War. Or genocide. Which the current GOP as well as the reaction to taking off slaver and Trail of Tears supervisor Jackson indicates.

    I prefer “wage thief” to slave owner myself. And to be fair to Jackson he did his share of personally murdering many native Americans as well as fellow whites.

  86. 86.

    Mnemosyne

    @Miss Bianca:

    Here’s my thing: activists and politicians are like architects and builders. You need one set of people to come up with the ideas, and a separate set to actually put the idea into workable form. Architects are lousy builders, as anyone who’s ever lived in a Frank Llloyd Wright house could tell you.

    Activists are necessary, but not sufficient, to actually get shit done. The Civil Rights Movement knew this, but a lot of the other movements seem to have either forgotten it or never learned it.

  87. 87.

    aimai

    @guachi: The thing is that we might not have a portrait of young Tubman. I don’t see why it has to be a photograph, though, since although she lived to be photographed the images of, say Washington or the founding fathers were obviously taken from portraits. The question is: were any portraits or early photographs taken of her? I don’t know. It would be rather surprising if there were.

  89. 89.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Isn’t that what revolutions are – burning down? Revolutions require constant new enemies of the revolution to keep the rage focused. Hence the reluctance to discuss in any detail what comes after the revolution. When Sanders supporters were polled (by Vox, I think) how much they’d actually agree to have their own taxes raised to implement his policies, it comes nowhere near to what his proposed goals would require. Where the rubber hits the road is where it starts to fall apart which is basically Giordano’s point.

  93. 93.

    rikyrah

    Luvvie has a new post up. It will make you laugh and cry.

    Because Prince Would Want Us To Be Petty Right Now
    Awesomely Luvvie — April 22, 2016 14 40

    Prince wasn’t just one of the greatest musicians of our lifetime. He was also a Shade Savant. The Side-Eye Slayer. He was clearly full of jokes and he also didn’t have time for bullshit. This is why so many Prince memes and GIFs exist. He didn’t throw shade. NAH. He orchestrated eclipses with one cutting look, or a sunglasses shift

  96. 96.

    gwangung

    @Mnemosyne:

    Here’s my thing: activists and politicians are like architects and builders. You need one set of people to come up with the ideas, and a separate set to actually put the idea into workable form. Architects are lousy builders, as anyone who’s ever lived in a Frank Llloyd Wright house could tell you.

    Activists are necessary, but not sufficient, to actually get shit done. The Civil Rights Movement knew this, but a lot of the other movements seem to have either forgotten it or never learned it.

    Another insight I think that’s useful (there was a GOS diary that touched on this). Shit’s gotta get done; I prefer a person who has a plan to do it.

  98. 98.

    Lamh36

    To all those folks whining about the Peonce coverage…whatever… my President is Black (wanna know how many of you ole folk at BJ will get the rap reference)

    “This morning we played Purple Rain…just to get warmed up”- @BarackObama pays tribute to Prince snpy.tv/1r4G3tC

  99. 99.

    Origuy

    @aimai: I doubt any portraits were made of her during her life; that would have been much more expensive than photographs. She was 29 when she escaped from slavery in 1849; unlikely that she would have been photographed until after the war. It would have made what she was doing even more dangerous.

    ABC has a picture of Jack Lew looking at a rendition of her at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. I like it better than the one in the OP.

  101. 101.

    Origuy

    @aimai:

    The reverse of the new $5 will highlight the historic events that occurred at the Lincoln Memorial and will include images of Marian Anderson, Eleanor Roosevelt and Martin Luther King Jr. The front of the new $5 will retain President Lincoln’s portrait.

  102. 102.

    Bob In Portland

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    OT but related, is this Al Giordano tweet storify, which is about as good a summation of the primary as I’ve seen.

    I’m detecting a bit of the Cotton Mather ethic here in Giordano’s thinking. He says “overall people who have organized and won battles – John Lewis, Dolores Huerta, etc. – went with Clinton.” From this he organizes winners and losers and apportions the winners to the Clinton camp and the losers to the Sanders camp.

    But here’s the point: Have blacks in the south won, or has Lewis found a safe place in the political hierarchy? If Lewis “won” equal rights and equal economic status for southern blacks then we have different standards of what a victory is. One could argue that whatever Lewis “won” in the sixties for black Americans he has subsequently “lost” while ensuring his own position of power.

    The same can be said about Dolores Huerta. If she’s “won” then why are farmworkers still underpaid and abused? Why are twelve million immigrants still “illegal”?

    In essence Giordano is saying that Huerta and Lewis are on the “winners’ bandwagon”, and the people who are not satisfied with the status quo are the “losers” with Sanders.

    This is interesting because it dovetails nicely with Thomas Frank’s book. In fact, there isn’t much real estate separating Giordano from Larry Summers, who basically said that inequality reflects reality and that the poor deserve to be poor.

    Conster has always come off as a little too self-important for what he offers so it’s not surprising that he would justify his social status on his own hard work.

    Conster, your link says more about you than you probably want to admit.

    @goblue72:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Giordano has always been a complete douche. His “opposing Clinton means you are racist and loser” is just evidence of it.

    Exactly, goblue. But don’t expect these neoliberals to ever face the mirror. Because of their status, whether through their bank balance, their degrees on the wall or the friendly pats on the head they’ve received from their upper class betters, they won’t ever join the battle for economic justice. In essence, the Lady Biancas of the world are saying “I got mine.”

    What’s interesting is that this website started out when J. Cole was a Republican. He seems to have moved somewhat to the left, but his audience is daily being revealed for what it is, self-congratulating neoliberals.

    Left and right was the seating arrangement in the French legislature a long time ago. Top and bottom is a better measurement.

    Part of the exercise here is to lift up icons while ignoring what they are supposed to stand for. They seize on any criticism of John Lewis as racism, while ignoring that Lewis hasn’t brought equality to the south at all. And those very policies that would aid Lewis’ constituency are denounced as impossible. So, essentially, the Consters of the world are pretty satisfied with the way the world is and don’t intend to risk their prestige and position to actually do anything that might jeopardize it, because there will always be the rich and the poor and Conster isn’t poor.

  103. 103.

    Mnemosyne

    @aimai:

    IIRC, they’re planning to replace the current generic image of the Lincoln Memorial on the back of the $5 with an image of Anderson performing there. So she’s not going to be on the front.

  104. 104.

    ? Martin

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I think the ‘Fight For 15’ is a good example of how determined labor organization works. It’s one of the happiest signs for our country I’ve seen in a long while. That, and Scalia’s death.

    Right. I’m not sure I agree that Fight for 15 succeeded because they moved the overton window through the idea itself (perhaps that’s not what Roger was suggesting and I’m misreading him), rather that the determined labor organization secured some successes – mostly in small cities, and those successes are what moved the window allowing for larger cities to see this as being feasible and then blue states following. The idea was the way to focus the labor organization onto a single mission which they could keep pounding on at all levels. Both are needed to move that window – the idea isn’t enough.

  107. 107.

    Trollhattan

    @Roger Moore:
    IMHO any spree-killer is a de facto terrorist. I would like to keep such people from possessing firearms, so their task of terrorizing and killing becomes much tougher.

  109. 109.

    A Ghost To Most

    @Miss Bianca:

    First hummingbird sighting of the year! It’s really spring now, despite last weekend’s blizzard!

    Well, if they have appeared in your neck of the woods, they should be in mine shortly. Time to get the feeder out

  110. 110.

    Immanentize

    @Mnemosyne: This.
    The civil rights activists of the SLC and the NAACP needed, for example, the lawyers in the Southern Prisoner’s Defense Committee and The NAACP Legal Defense Fund respectively to go to court, get bail, get people out of jail, argue cases and write legislation. Also people with money who donated and people without fear who changed their communities by modeling equality (I heart Virginia Foster Durr, by the way).
    Although it is the work of the activists we remember the most … it isn’t all just speeches and fire hoses,

  111. 111.

    Miss Bianca

    @Bob In Portland: Funny how so many of these “southern blacks” you’re bleeding your heart over seem to have preferred Clinton over Sanders. They must be speaking from a real place of privilege, huh? Or are you going to pull out the “false consciousness” card and prove Giordano’s point for him? Oh, and *you’re* going to criticize John Lewis, you awesome social warrior? As my late lamented mamma used to say, “some people have more nerve than sense.”

  112. 112.

    FlipYrWhig

    @burnspbesq: Now, now, goblue has no reason to feel particularly incriminated by mockery of older dilettantish activists and their relationship with younger ones.

  113. 113.

    aimai

    @Immanentize: Virginia Foster Durr was a friend of my great Aunt, whose husband was in the civil liberties community. There is tons and tons and tons of work that gets done in courtrooms and through legislation when the court cases go our way.

  114. 114.

    gwangung

    As an activist and a POC, I’ve had decades of experience with radicals who are too full of their self importance and righteousness for the cause to realize when they’re being racist or sexist.

    Human beings. Some things never change….

  115. 115.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland:

    the people who are not satisfied with the status quo are the “losers” with Sanders.

    Maybe the people who have no bleedin’ idea what to do to shift the status quo with which they’re unsatisfied are the losers, like Sanders himself, who’s even more confused about this–which is vital to the whole idea of his supposed POLITICAL REVOLUTION–than he is about everything else he talks about.

  116. 116.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @gwangung:

    Most of my friends are well off white liberals (Massachusetts) and a few progressives, but try talking about white privilege or white male privilege and the racist operating system that white America runs which they benefit from, and boy howdy, it runs off the rails REALLY quickly. #Notallwhitemales

  117. 117.

    Immanentize

    @aimai: I worked as an intern at Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery and I thankfully got to attend a number of Ms. Durr’s amazing ‘salons’ for want of a better word. One of the greatest compliments I ever received was when, hearing I grew up in rural New York, she said, “And I thought you were a southernuh.”

  118. 118.

    Bob In Portland

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Maybe the people who have no bleedin’ idea what to do to shift the status quo with which they’re unsatisfied are the losers, like Sanders himself, who’s even more confused about this–which is vital to the whole idea of his supposed POLITICAL REVOLUTION–than he is about everything else he talks about.

    So your argument is that the losers are stupid? And the incrementalism of the last fifty years that has failed the “losers” will eventually solve their problems? Sort of like “trickle-down”?

  121. 121.

    gwangung

    By the way….I NEVER thought the Drive for $15 was a pipe dream.

    But I thought it was best handled by a city by city (or, at most, county by county) basis and not necessarily all at once. And that’s what seems to be happening. With leading economic areas adopting that, there’s some pressure upward, across the board.

    Might be missing something. Then again, I might not.

  126. 126.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland:

    So your argument is that the losers are stupid?

    Very much so.

    And the incrementalism of the last fifty years that has failed the “losers” will eventually solve their problems?

    Like Zeno’s paradox, incrementalism will keep getting closer and closer to solving more people’s problems.

    Sort of like “trickle-down”?

    Sort of like events occurring. Instead of feelings being felt at inanimate entities that are a built-in excuse for why they couldn’t be overcome, because THEY’RE SO POWERFUL THEY STOPPED US AGAIN RAGE HOWL SPEW RIGGED

  127. 127.

    Mnemosyne

    @Immanentize:

    I still think one of the huge weaknesses of the left in the past 30-40 years was to look at the success of activism and decide that activism was all that was needed, and somehow the parts with the lawyers and the politicians putting the laws into effect would take care of themselves. We’re still paying for that.

  129. 129.

    gwangung

    As I’ve pointed out before, the black community is still fighting for gains, decades after the beginning of the civil rights movement (which is not a done deal). The’ve HAD success—but not as much as they’d like. I think people disrespect their achievements by being so impatience. And I think folks disrespect their wisdom by scoffing at their incrementalism.

  130. 130.

    Major Major Major Major

    Hi everybody! It’s really coming down here in San Francisco today. I kind of like the rain, but sometimes it feels like you’re only saying that because you’re supposed to, you know? And it’s driving my cat crazy. Must be all the smells or something? We had a warm dry spell for a bit so this must be all exciting. He’s an indoor cat but we keep the windows open and the hallway door cracked for ventilation.

    Is the primary over yet?

  131. 131.

    Betty Cracker

    @Germy: I guess the young woman in the ad is supposed to be Huma Abedin. Wingnuts seem obsessed with her for some reason.

  135. 135.

    debbie

    @Keith P.:

    To go through all this after being put through a flood is just horrible. Hopefully, you’ll end up in a much better place, physically and psychically. Since you still owe on your house, are you going to try and do a short sale? Be sure to try and negotiate a waiver of the deficiency. You may end up owning nothing.

  136. 136.

    Immanentize

    @Mnemosyne: I agree so very much. The left somehow got so fragmented. Sometimes I think it was successes in the 50’s and 60’s which led to some wrong conclusions. And sometimes it was our own version of epistemic closure — I used to joke that in Boston in the 90’s there were 6 factions of the national lawyers guild (including some averred maoists) while in San Antonio there were 6 members….

  137. 137.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Immanentize:

    Every election cycle opens my eyes in a new way around the issues of race. I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that Sanders and his supporters think that the obstacle to having nice shiny socialist things is that the country has just been waiting for the awesomeness of Bernie Sanders. I keep asking my peers when this subject comes up if they knew that when SS was passed, it didn’t cover half the wage earners in this country. Everyone I’ve asked had no idea, and when I ask them to guess which kinds of work wasn’t covered, or the kinds of people that did that work, they can’t even guess – like it’s a mystery. Like Social Security just fell out of the sky, full blown and fully formed, onto a loving gracious and grateful nation at the behest of FDR. It gobsmacks me every time.

  138. 138.

    Bob In Portland

    @Miss Bianca:

    Funny how so many of these “southern blacks” you’re bleeding your heart over seem to have preferred Clinton over Sanders… Oh, and *you’re* going to criticize John Lewis, you awesome social warrior? Oh, and *you’re* going to criticize John Lewis, you awesome social warrior?

    Well, you follow the script. Pointing out that John Lewis has a secure place in the Democratic Party is somehow racism. Pointing out the current conditions of the working class is racist.

    Would southern blacks benefit from medicare for all? Would they benefit from a federal jobs program to rebuild the infrastructure? Would they benefit from a tax structure that redirects wealth downward? Would they benefit from daycare, betters schools, free college tuition? Would they benefit from the end of the drug war? Would they benefit from not having prison records or not being shot by cops?

    From all that I’ve seen, southern blacks voted for Clinton because they recognized her name and connected it with vaguely better times during the 90s and because the Democratic machine in the south told them to. Much like the southern whites who voted for Clinton by large margins. Nostalgia and the chain of command.

  139. 139.

    Chris

    @NonyNony:

    Basically he seems to be saying “There’s a certain stripe of left-leaning Boomer who has never succeeded at anything in their political activism, and they’re screwing up the younger generation of leftists. Someone needs to help these kids understand that there’s a good reason these left-leaning Boomers never accomplished much and they really shouldn’t be repeating their mistakes.”
    …
    You may see it as condescending, and I’d agree a bit in that anything old people say to young people is kinda condescending. But he’s also right that there are a whole lot of failures in the white male Boomer left-leaning activist group who seem to value tactics over accomplishments, and really nobody should be following their examples these days.

    He’s not wrong about that last. But “My central mission in the coming months will be to rescue the idealistic millennials from the “beautiful loser” left, because they’re ok” really is the most smugly condescending way he could possibly have put it. Millennials, even the idealistic ones, aren’t helpless sheep being led astray by bad boomer shepherds and in need of a good boomer shepherd to “rescue” them.

    (We could also stop depicting generational brick walls altogether, but I’m not holding my breath).

  141. 141.

    scav

    @aimai: As I understand it, some of the people on the bills were chosen because of their historic actions or connections to a place / building shown on the bill, as a way to bring additional life and context to the places depicted. I’m rather fond of the approach as a geographer, and also because it additionally shakes up the order in which people are shown — getting closer to a bottom-up view of history as well. Can see that it would have been easier if our cash hadn’t been so stuck on unchanging dead white men for so very long.

  142. 142.

    Bob In Portland

    @gwangung: Impatient?

    A lot of people have been born and died since Little Rock. Incrementalism will eventually bring success.

    Why not just tell the poor that they’ll be rewarded in heaven?

  143. 143.

    debbie

    There was some old coot on the radio this afternoon, proclaiming he’d never use a $20 bill again. He insisted Jackson was a hero (for New Orleans), not a slave owner and renowned Indian butcher, and Tubman was a criminal (she broke the law), not a freedom fighter and abolitionist. I had an image of him, pants dragging along the road, weighed by wads and wads of singles. That’ll learn ’em.

  144. 144.

    Gimlet

    An exorcism

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/21/secretive-hollywood-conservative-group-dissolves-trump

    The Friends of Abe has acted as a clandestine club for Hollywood conservatives for more than a decade, hosting secret events where they could vent rightwing views and hear speeches from visiting Tea Party luminaries.

    But on Thursday the organisation – which counts Jon Voight, Jerry Bruckheimer and Kelsey Grammer among its 1,500 members – made an abrupt announcement: it was dissolving.

    “Effective immediately, we are going to begin to wind down the 501 c3 organization, bring the Sustaining Membership dues to an end, and do away with the costly infrastructure and the abespal.com website,” the executive director, Jeremy Boreing, told members in an email, a copy of which the Guardian has seen.

    The announcement caught members by surprise and fueled speculation that infighting over Donald Trump’s candidacy, among other factors, had drained commitment. Others said the group had been losing steam for years.

    Lionel Chetwynd, a producer and screenwriter and co-founder of the FOA, recently spoke of the primary campaign causing a “civil war in slow motion”, which fractured friendships and shredded solidarity.

  145. 145.

    ? Martin

    @Betty Cracker:

    @Germy: I guess the young woman in the ad is supposed to be Huma Abedin. Wingnuts seem obsessed with her for some reason.

    Uh, she’s muslim. Reason is easy enough. They accused her of working as an insider for the Muslim Brotherhood to take over America.

  147. 147.

    Chris

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I think the ‘Fight For 15’ is a good example of how determined labor organization works. It’s one of the happiest signs for our country I’ve seen in a long while.

    I agree. The extent to which organized labor has been torn to shreds in this country is one of the most depressing aspects of the economic landscape. Things like this give me a lot of hope for the future.

  148. 148.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Chris: It’s quite condescending, but I don’t think his narrative is wrong. Of course, it’s also condescending to assume that somebody won’t follow your argument just because you’re being condescending.

  149. 149.

    Miss Bianca

    @gwangung: @Mnemosyne: And then there’s this notion that somehow, one person – or a handful – is supposed to push back against systemic oppression and lift it up *all by themselves*, with no effort, pain, or sacrifice on anybody else’s part – certainly not on the part of anyone who actually benefits from the current system, however much they may deplore it. And when they can’t do it, they’re somehow to blame. John Lewis hasn’t got rid of a racially oppressive system yet? Screw him – he must not be trying hard enough.

    I found myself thnking that if, by some miracle, Bernie Sanders did make it to the Presidency, the prospect of the butt-hurt squeals from the True Believers when he couldn’t open the skies *all by himself* – absent the help of a supportive Congress, SCOTUS, and state governments – and make it rain magical unicorn shit would be hilarious, if it weren’t so drearily predictable and useless.

    @Bob In Portland: And…see above, God, you are so condescending. yet another old white lefty guy scolding “the poors” for somehow not being able to recognize how much awesomer things would be for them if they could ONLY RECOGNIZE how much awesomer your candidate is. “Name recognition” is the only thing Clinton has going for her?

  150. 150.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Mnemosyne: So, I think it was defensible for a long time to think that, actually. It’s reasonable to think that if people start loudly demanding things, the politicians who want their votes will start finding ways to satisfy those demands. Thus “the people’s” role in the drama is to get angry and spread awareness, and then “the system” responds with the nuts and bolts and compromises and the crunching of the numbers and so forth. The problem is that Republicans _very very recently_ crafted a strategy of being unresponsive and uncompromising at all times, and they haven’t been punished for it. Consciousness-raising can’t possible work under those conditions. Plus, one thing that got Democrats elected in their lean years in the 1970s and 1980s was “fiscal responsibility,” so you still get a lot of Democrats who want to know how to pay for things and who have a fair amount of street cred riding on not being the kind of free-spending liberal who doesn’t care about that. So activism stopped persuading either Democrats or Republicans, and once the feedback loop between activism and action collapsed, activism for the sake of activism was never going to produce anything. And here we are. Encouraging, innit?

  153. 153.

    Immanentize

    @scav: I like the “buildings in action” design plan for our bills because it then moves us from a architectural cold place to a celebration (or exploration) of public use of spaces. It used to be that government buildings were designed to create prestige and awe in those who went to do business there (even if it was a penny for a postage stamp). Now consider your modern DMV.

  156. 156.

    Baud

    @Immanentize:

    I like the “buildings in action” design plan for our bills

    I want our money to be animated like the portraits in Harry Potter.

  157. 157.

    Roger Moore

    @Origuy:

    Nowhere does 2030 appear; I think that’s someone’s guess.

    I think there was a comment that the new designs wouldn’t come out until 2020 and the the bills wouldn’t go into circulation until the next decade. My guess is that they’re counting the decade as 2011-2020, so the next decade is 2021-2030, but other people read the decade as being 2020-2029, so coming out in the next decade would be 2030 or later.

  158. 158.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland:

    From all that I’ve seen, southern blacks voted for Clinton because they recognized her name and connected it with vaguely better times during the 90s and because the Democratic machine in the south told them to.

    Hideous. Unbelievable. Un fucking believable. You are such a motherfucking asshole. Just because you are easy to brainwash with bullshit doesn’t mean other people are. Imagine a fuck fucking your fucking skull forever.

  159. 159.

    scav

    I just got a cold call from a cemetary. And they asked for me by name.

    Right.

    I only wish I’d thought quick enough to arrange for a booking next weekend if they could possibly squeeze me in, rather than going with my pre-arranged appt with the dumpster in back.

  160. 160.

    Gimlet

    @FlipYrWhig:

    So activism stopped persuading either Democrats or Republicans, and once the feedback loop between activism and action collapsed, activism for the sake of activism was never going to produce anything.

    Maybe they would respond to money?
    Naw, BJers have convinced me that doesn’t happen.

  161. 161.

    Bob In Portland

    @gwangung: Well, produce your evidence. And since southern whites who voted in the Democratic primaries had similar disproportionate edges for Clinton, are you saying that southerners generally are politically wiser than the rest of the country? Or are you being racist and saying that white southerners voted for Hillary for the wrong reasons and blacks voted for her for the right reasons?

    The only evidence I’ve seen why black southerners voted for Clinton over Sanders is because they’d heard of her. That was the takeaway from the stories in the media, but I’ll welcome your greater knowledge. Share it with us.

  167. 167.

    Bob In Portland

    @gwangung: But you do? And how did you get your standing? And how did I lose mine?

    You should read Frank’s book too. “Standing” is the perfect word for you. You see the world as classes, some people with standing, some without “standing”. You have standing. Flip Your Whig has standing. I don’t.

    So please share with us why the vast majority of southern Democrats, black or white, voted for Clinton two months ago. I will await your more qualified explanation.

  168. 168.

    Miss Bianca

    @gwangung: See, what Bob doesn’t want to do is look into Girdano’s mirror and see…himself. So, it’s not that African=American voters in the South have examined the options open to them and made the choice that makes most sense to them…no, like children who just don’t understand that eating their peas is better for them than eating Twinkies for dinner, they must be *guided* by their white political parenty types. ETA: They’re obviously victims of false consciousness, the poor things, not to see that Great White Grandpa, who’s never got shit done in Congress and has no coherent plan for going forward, is their one true hope! *gag*

  169. 169.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bob In Portland:

    The only evidence I’ve seen why black southerners voted for Clinton over Sanders is because they’d heard of her.

    I’ll just let that sit there.

  170. 170.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Gimlet: Is the plan to give Democrats millions of dollars in good-hearted liberals’ money? Because that could potentially work. Democrats still care about getting re-elected and pleasing their constituents.

  171. 171.

    Immanentize

    @Baud: That would be so cool — if, say, Lincoln could stand up and wave or Jefferson could walk out of the rotunda and pick a flower….

  172. 172.

    chopper

    @NonyNony:

    goblue sees everything as an attack on millenials, a cohort on whose behalf he speaks even though he’s like 44. it’s complicated.

  173. 173.

    gogol's wife

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    That’s really good. This part: “14. It is thus the perfect cocktail for the emergence of the ‘Bernie Bro,’ who, again, is not a millennial but the aging white male activist” is just what I observe around my little community.

  174. 174.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Mnemosyne:

    …activism was all that was needed, and somehow the parts with the lawyers and the politicians putting the laws into effect would take care of themselves. We’re still paying for that

    . Lawyers, politicians…those are people on the inside. Getting involved with them is inherently corrupting, as power corrupts. The only way to avoid being compromised is to not get involved with those sorts of people in the first place

    First we get rid of political parties.
    Then we get rid of politicians.[1]
    Then we get rid of politics.

    it’s not that difficult, people.

    [1] Gotta carve out a few exceptions for the ones i really like, tho…..

  175. 175.

    Bob In Portland

    @FlipYrWhig: You have more “standing” than me. Tell us why southerners of all races voted for Hillary by such wide margins.

  176. 176.

    Chris

    @FlipYrWhig:

    The problem is that Republicans _very very recently_ crafted a strategy of being unresponsive and uncompromising at all times, and they haven’t been punished for it.

    It also helps that the right wing political machine has made what was supposed to be the ur-threat against politicians – “if you want to get reelected, pay attention to what the voters want!” – irrelevant. Or at least blunted its effectiveness by a lot. If you faithfully tow the party line, then even if you lose an election, the machine will take care of you. They’ll find you a nice cushy spot as a lobbyist or at a think tank or on the board of a government contractor somewhere. On the other hand, deviate from the party line too many times, and you’ll get primaried at the first occasion and then find all these doors closed to you once you toss out on your ass. For a lot of wingnut politicians, losing an election might actually be the preferable outcome if the alternative is pissing off the machine.

  180. 180.

    Bob In Portland

    @chopper: But you’re satisfied with the dissatisfaction of young people?

    LIke I said, self-congratulating neoliberals.

  181. 181.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bob In Portland:

    So please share with us why the vast majority of southern Democrats, black or white, voted for Clinton two months ago.

    I am going to go with: Because they saw her as the better candidate.

  182. 182.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland: Maybe because they’re smarter than to fall for the obvious bullshit factory of the Bernie Sanders campaign? Maybe because they’re much smarter than you in particular?

  184. 184.

    eemom

    @chopper:

    goblue sees everything as an attack on millenials, a cohort on whose behalf he speaks even though he’s like 44.

    Could’ve fooled me. I thought he was more like 12.

  187. 187.

    ? Martin

    @Bob In Portland:

    The only evidence I’ve seen why black southerners voted for Clinton over Sanders is because they’d heard of her. That was the takeaway from the stories in the media, but I’ll welcome your greater knowledge. Share it with us.

    Wait, the US media or the Russian media? I thought you had fully denounced the US media – or is that only when it fails to reinforce your beliefs.

    But, every black southerner I’ve talked to in this cycle told me the same thing – they don’t exactly trust the Democratic party to promote their interests once their vote has been reliably delivered, but they do trust individuals whose track record is known. Even when that record isn’t all they want it to be, they know where that person stands with some reliability and they know who that individual listens to and how to lobby for their interests. Short answer, they vote for democrats that will do no harm and who they know how to reach. They can’t afford the risk of harm that comes from idealists, particularly those that are not well connected with their support base. This is why they originally supported Clinton over Obama, even though Obama’s identity should have swayed them, it didn’t. He had to earn it – he had to prove he wouldn’t be a liability to the community.

    In every conversation I got the sense that they have a MUCH better understand of who they are voting for and why as compared to most other Democrats because I got a sense that who gets elected has much greater direct bearing on their lives than on most other Democrats.

  189. 189.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Chris: Agreed. But I’m very sure that, by and large, American politics is no longer based on what used to be its core principle, pleasing voters by improving their lives, making them want to reward the politicians responsible by voting for them again. And I don’t think we’ve quite come to grips with how far we’ve strayed from that.

  190. 190.

    Patricia Kayden

    @goblue72: Will these activist feminists and POC support Clinton if she’s the Democratic candidate running against Cruz or Trump in November? That’s really all that matters at this point in time. If Sanders is the nominee, although I prefer Clinton, I would vote for him in a heartbeat. Seems like too many Sanders’ supporters appear to not have that same flexibility.

    By the way, Sanders is running the same type of campaign as Clinton did back in 2008 given that she did not concede until June. I appreciate that Sanders has moved Clinton to the left this time around.

  191. 191.

    Bob In Portland

    @Omnes Omnibus: Give us an explanation. I’ve asked repeately, but the reason is never stated.

    Why did southerners of all races vote by huge margins for Clinton in February?

    As anyone can see, Clinton has been losing demographics as the campaign has moved on. Part of it is that she isn’t trusted across the political spectrum, and those untrustworthy numbers keep growing. She is still favored by blacks and by older white women, but she’s lost ground everywhere.

    Why did the South in February vote for Hillary in large numbers? Thanking any of villagers for trying to come up with an explanation other than “it’s Hillary’s turn.”

  192. 192.

    Ruckus

    @Keith P.:
    Have to agree with Martin on this. I’ve started clean 3 times now, the last time 4 yrs ago and none of them started out to be my idea. Sometimes life gives you roses, sometimes the thorns. But as everything else in life it is what you end up doing with it that matters. It sounds like you have a good handle on it. On the disease side, good luck and I hope it comes out good for you.

  193. 193.

    FlipYrWhig

    @? Martin: Yup. Black southerners are hardened by and accustomed to political disappointment, and thus very little prone to idealistic flights of fancy.

  194. 194.

    BR

    @Bob In Portland:

    I think you don’t know much about Giordano from what you’re saying. His preferred political flavor is anarcho-syndicalism, a far cry from neo-liberalism. He’s reported from dangerous areas of South and Central America for almost two decades, against powerful interests. And he’s not a boomer, btw.

    He just happens to be very practically minded and doesn’t sugar coat his words.

  195. 195.

    ? Martin

    @Bob In Portland: You very conveniently are ignoring the election result of just 3 days ago. Or has the confederacy adopted New York while were weren’t looking?

  198. 198.

    Bob In Portland

    @? Martin: LA Times. NY Times. WaPo.

    Why did southerners vote for Hillary in February? Because they’re just as the rest of the country? Or did white southerners vote for Clinton because she’s conservative and black southerners vote for her because she’s the true progressive?

    I’m open. Why has her percentage of black voters gone down the farther away from the south the campaign is and the longer Sanders is visible? Please, because southern black voters are better informed than their northern black cousins?

  202. 202.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Bob In Portland: Voting for Clinton for any reason is valid. Not sure why we’re parsing why people are voting for Clinton over Sanders or vice versa. Why does that even matter?

  204. 204.

    Brachiator

    @rikyrah:

    Luvvie has a new post up. It will make you laugh and cry.

    Thanks for this. I sent the link to my sister. She will love this. We had been talking about the classic Chapelle Prince Pancakes skit last night.

    Pam: Oh, oh, oh…I just opened up a new tab and Google automatically popped up as my browser homepage. It’s purple. That’s it, I give up, I don’t even want to go back to bed I want to go and crawl UNDER the bed.

    In Los Angeles, last night they bathed City Hall and the Fabulous Forum in purple light.

  205. 205.

    Chris

    @FlipYrWhig:

    @Chris: Agreed. But I’m very sure that, by and large, American politics is no longer based on what used to be its core principle, pleasing voters by improving their lives, making them want to reward the politicians responsible by voting for them again. And I don’t think we’ve quite come to grips with how far we’ve strayed from that.

    I think this is definitely true in general – despite everything, all the negativity and anti-establishment sentiment out there, I think a big big chunk of Americans still think they have it better than they actually do, largely because their view of America is based on a mid-to-late 20th century image that’s disappearing.

    Though what I described isn’t entirely new – political machines used to be a thing all over the United States and often operated the same way. But they were usually at a local or, at most, state level. A nationwide political machine like modern movement conservatism, I don’t think we’ve had that before. (Another reason I’m thrilled with the Trump campaign tearing into it).

  206. 206.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland: Why did white people in the West vote by huge margins for Sanders? Would you say it’s because they evaluated the two candidates and concluded that Sanders was on balance better than Clinton? Or would you say it’s because something external and nefarious influenced them into making an inexplicable decision?

  208. 208.

    Bob In Portland

    @Patricia Kayden: Well, not voting for her is apparently invalid. That suggests some curious tap-dancing.

    So why have Hillary’s percentages with various groups, with the possible exception of older white women, gone down as the primaries have gone on? What changed? Or are you saying that it doesn’t matter because Clinton will probably get the nomination?

  209. 209.

    pea

    may’ve been said
    wonder how many ‘muricans will refuse to even touch a $20 bill if tubman is pictured on it?
    (side note: please, please, please may texas, & all states who want to follow, secede!
    great way to get rid of cruz, et al!)

  212. 212.

    Bob In Portland

    @FlipYrWhig: Why did the voters of Hawaii vote for Sanders? Whites are in the minority in Hawaii. Why did Hillary’s support among blacks go down in Michigan from her former high numbers in Mississippi?

    Any clues?

  213. 213.

    Chris

    @Bob In Portland:

    As anyone can see, Clinton has been losing demographics as the campaign has moved on. Part of it is that she isn’t trusted across the political spectrum, and those untrustworthy numbers keep growing. She is still favored by blacks and by older white women, but she’s lost ground everywhere.

    Not really a response to this, but an open question to the floor: what’s a good website to look at the demographics of Clinton vs Sanders supporters? At least in all the states that’ve already voted?

  216. 216.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Bob In Portland: No one is arguing that not voting for Clinton is invalid. People are allowed to vote for either Clinton or Sanders without having to justify or explain their votes. What difference does it make which groups voted for which candidate during the primaries?

    I don’t get why we’re parsing the votes as if that matters. All that matters is which candidate wins the nomination and then runs against the Republican candidate.

  219. 219.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @goblue72: @Miss Bianca: I know many activist feminists and POC who support Sanders over Clinton. Many of whom are SUCCESSFUL activists and have accomplished a hell of a lot more positive social change that has translated into legislative action than anything Giordano has even accomplished.

    i find this very believable.

  220. 220.

    Betty Cracker

    @Roger Moore: The official timetable was to release the $10s into circulation in 2020 and the new $20s in 2030. Looks like Lew is trying to expedite the $20s, which is nice of him.

    @? Martin: No doubt, but they also seem weirdly obsessed with her appearance and much given to speculation that her relationship with HRC is more than professional. Gotta stop lurking on the seamier side of the wingnut-o-sphere!

  223. 223.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    her relationship with HRC is more than professional.

    If Hillary doesn’t put dildos on the White House Christmas tree, I’ll be sorely disappointed.

  227. 227.

    Elie

    @Bob In Portland:

    Bob, please bear in mind that many of the western states are caucus states AND have pretty small black populations compared to the east and south. Wa, WY, Idaho, AK went for Bernie in pretty unrepresentative caucuses. Two hundred thousand people in WA came to the caucus in WA in a state with 7 million people. I can’t remember exact numbers but it was something like 500 in AK! Also a small number in WY and Idaho. Bernie has been given the benefit of the doubt in interpreting results that somehow meant he had this enormous western following. Yes and no. Trust me, most of these folks will have no problem voting for Hillary in the general…We won’t even go into how many states had open primaries that allowed Republicans and independents a voice to sway the results.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am glad Bernie ran and enlivened a much needed discussion around economic inequality. That said, he is not a good candidate for actually holding the office of President. He can go from this to a very meaningful and positive rest of his career or end up a spiteful old man that people will ultimately ignore. His choice but reports of his messianic status have been greatly exaggerated….

  228. 228.

    Bob In Portland

    @redshirt: And as you know, when speaking from the bully pulpit the preacher is pointing to someone else.

    Well, I’ve got to get ready for the public pool. Later.

  233. 233.

    Elie

    @Bob In Portland:

    Bob — those were primaries — not unrepresentative and easily manipulated caucuses in states with either smaller populations and/or few black people. You really need to study your facts more.

  235. 235.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Roger Moore: Seems excessive for us to have to wait until 2030 for the Tubman bills. Wonder if a Republican President could nix this whole thing in the interim if one wins before then.

  237. 237.

    Monala

    @Enhanced Voting Techinques: “Wage Thief” is terribly incomplete. Slave owners didn’t just steal the wages of black folks; they also stole their history, their bodies, their families, their children, their freedom, and often their lives.

  239. 239.

    Ruckus

    @scav:
    Might have even been better if you had come back with – “Your timing is impeccable! I hadn’t planned this but I kicked off yesterday and found myself in desperate need of a plot. What’s the cheapest thing you got on short notice?”

  240. 240.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @MazeDancer:
    There were people who lived through the Civil war alive during my lifetime, certainly my parents & grandparents. Those events inform much of the world we live in today despite most people not recognizing it.

  243. 243.

    scav

    @Ruckus: Especially if I knew enough Prince to hum in the the background. Different tack: What about asking if there was a bulk discount if I brought some of my family members along for the immediate planting?

  244. 244.

    Elie

    @Betty Cracker:

    Huma is still married to Tony Weiner — the unfortunately impaired NY politician and former congressman who had to show his junk on line. If anything, they do share husbands who have done very regrettable things that have hurt them tremendously. I am very sure that Hillary was a for real support to Huma during the worst of that.

  245. 245.

    ? Martin

    @Bob In Portland:

    Why did southerners vote for Hillary in February?

    Because their primary was in February. Do you now understand how this process works?

    Because they’re just as the rest of the country? Or did white southerners vote for Clinton because she’s conservative and black southerners vote for her because she’s the true progressive?

    The south isn’t like the rest of the country. There was this thing, see, called the ‘American Civil War’. It was in all the papers – even the russian ones, maybe you heard of it. Anyway, the majority population in those states never really got over the fact that their beautiful idea of enslaving people for profit collapsed and they’ve held onto as much of that system as the law has allowed. They even have this flag, see, as a symbol of that which they insist on shoving in the face of african americans and their allies. They’ve put a lot of state resources behind the idea that white people are better than everyone else. So voters in those states have a different relationship with their government and their need for federal support is quite critical.

    None of the people I talked to would probably consider Clinton a true progressive. But their concerns aren’t about who is most appropriately serving as the mascot for the Democratic Elks club, their concern is mostly about not getting fired, shot for wearing a hoodie, dying due to lack of health care – trivial things like that. They don’t think in terms of ‘true progressive’ – they can’t afford to.

    Why has her percentage of black voters gone down the farther away from the south the campaign is and the longer Sanders is visible? Please, because southern black voters are better informed than their northern black cousins?

    Because black voters in places like New York have a state government that does a better (if inadequate) job of supporting their interests than black voters in Alabama. They can balance their interest across a wider spectrum of agencies. I mean, it is shocking that Clinton’s black support has collapsed from 90% in Alabama to only 75% in New York. Clearly Sanders is the preferred candidate of black voters, if only they could be bother to be educated enough to realize it. Maybe you could fly down here to CA for our primary, help some of our black people pull up their pants and break away from shooting each other long enough to read one of your pamphlets.

    Nicer version: you are treating time as the only causative relationship here and dismissing the notion that people in different states will vote in different ways because they have different local issues. You are doing that because your candidate isn’t winning and you are grasping at some rationale that you believe should override all others – that the Clinton sheeple are finally waking up and feeling the bern. There’s no real evidence for that. New York is the absolute center of political media. New Yorkers above all other people should be the most politically informed and Clinton won by nearly 20 points, and that was just 3 days ago. Not only does it disprove your suggestion that Sanders will inevitably do better in later primaries, the only thing is does prove is that New Yorkers prefer Clinton over Sanders while saying nothing about what Californians will prefer. Political issues here in CA are wildly different from NY as well as from the south and a wildly different outcome is perfectly reasonable.

  249. 249.

    BR

    I think I realized another reason why Al Giordano and the Sanders crew don’t like each other — they are both on the far left in terms of a left right axis but when you use the more descriptive Political Compass approach, you find that the Sanders approach is much more of a “big government” left wing thinking (much more aligned with the old left of Sanders’s youth) whereas Giordano is more on the grassroot movement left that is common in parts of Latin America, like Oaxaca.

  250. 250.

    Weaselone

    Bob is mistaken. Take South Carolina for example. Blacks went 84 to 16 for Clinton while whites went 54 to 46 for her. That’s a big difference. It’s also a lie that she has been consistently losing support in all groups. Higher percentages of both whites and blacks voted for her in Ohio than Michigan and in New York compared to Wisconsin.

  251. 251.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @Immanentize:
    The minister that confirmed me was on the March to Selma the year before my confirmation. He talked about a lot of things that happened and a lot of what happened they were prepared for because the NAACP and Rev King had people organized and were prepared to do the heavy lifting, getting people and the stuff people needed into place ahead of time. Dull, tedious stuff mostly but they knew how to orginize.

  253. 253.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I think mostly they’ve fallen in hate with everyone who isn’t Sanders. That’s what worries me. It’s a campaign based on identifying enemies.

    Just like any GOP campaign then. Hmmm.

  254. 254.

    sharl

    @BR:

    I think you don’t know much about Giordano from what you’re saying. His preferred political flavor is anarcho-syndicalism, a far cry from neo-liberalism. He’s reported from dangerous areas of South and Central America for almost two decades, against powerful interests. And he’s not a boomer, btw.

    He just happens to be very practically minded and doesn’t sugar coat his words.

    If one accepts the convention that (U.S.) Boomers were born 1945-1965 – and I know some rather vigorously reject that convention – then Giordano is a Boomer, though on the young side. As was Prince, RIP.

    AlGiordano @AlGiordano

    I’m sensitive today. Prince was just a year older than I.

    2:24 AM – 22 Apr 2016

    Otherwise, I pretty much agree with everything you said about Giordano.

  255. 255.

    Elie

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    This is the “money” quote from Al’s (Giordano’s) tweets:

    Because training & organizing are about “agency.” They teach “we win or lose based on what WE do.” That’s the lesson of Sanders’ failure

    (emphasis mine)

  257. 257.

    BR

    @sharl:

    Ah, true, I guess I didn’t realize what the boomer cutoff was. He doesn’t identify as a boomer, maybe because he’s on the young end of it. Who knows.

  258. 258.

    Brachiator

    @redshirt:

    LOL. We’re just sinners in the hands of an angry God, Bob.

    God, we’re just sinners in the hands of an angry Bob, too.

  260. 260.

    ? Martin

    @Elie: Sanders won the WY caucus 156 to 124. Only 3,300 black people live in Wyoming. Assuming they turned out proportionate to the white population, there would have been slightly fewer than 2 black votes at the caucus.

    Somehow this constitutes proof that blacks are abandoning Clinton.

  261. 261.

    Baud

    @Elie:
    @? Martin:

    I’ve often wondered why economic progressives don’t do better in very white states. Our high point was Brian Schweitzer in Montana.

  262. 262.

    Elie

    @Brachiator:

    A c’mon! I thought that you are pretty bright dude! Rosario and Saranwrap are nothing but egocentric failed “revolutionaries”. Much of what Giordano tweets is right on — interesting that you don’t see it. Are you a boomer? Well I certainly am and know enough BernieBros in my personal life to vouch for his statements… If you think these people suck on line, you should experience them in living human flesh…

  264. 264.

    sharl

    By the way, Giordano makes a big, big distinction between organizing/organizer and activism/activist. He has a barely concealed contempt for the latter (and often the contempt isn’t concealed at all). He always self-describes as an organizer.

    As far as the man’s history, I’ve linked this 2004 post he authored before – it is hard, grim reading from perhaps the lowest point in his life, shortly after the suicide of his friend and colleague Gary Webb – but he ain’t now, nor has he ever been a couch-surfing phone-it-in liberal* Boomer. (*faux or otherwise).

  265. 265.

    Elie

    @Baud:

    Its because there are some for true crazy red staters out here — I mean too nuts to appeal to in any semi normal way. In some ways, the west seems to breed extremes and our lefties are pretty out there too. Remember, WA state has the lowest child vaccination rate in the US — both the right and left are crazy here and mirror each other in intensity.

  266. 266.

    Mnemosyne

    I love how Giordano writes a series of tweets about how old white guy Boomers are the problem when it comes to Bernie’s supporters, and old white guy Boomer BiP promptly shows up to illustrate that Giordano was right on the money.

    “It’s 1800 — ladies, tell your husbands: vote for Burr!”

    (The Hamiltonians are giggling right about now.)

  268. 268.

    Bob In Portland

    @Elie: I agree. We know that Iowa was apparently decided on six coin flips. I’d rather that all were open primaries, but they’re not. You can just as well argue that Sanders lost New York because millions of independents were denied the right to vote for Sanders, or you can say that they had no right to vote in the Democratic primary. Whatever, they weren’t reflected in the voting tallies.

    Clinton won those southern primaries with large majorities. It wasn’t always just blacks outvoting whites. White, especially in the deep south, voted for Clinton by large margins. The margins of black voters for Clinton have gone down outside the south. She still gets the majority, but not by a wide margin. Her favorablity with white men in the south was higher than anything outside the south. She has consistently lost support with anyone under fifty.

    What I am saying is that primaries aren’t static. Clinton’s approval ratings keep going down. One could conceivably mention that her big margins of victory in the south were because of Sanders and his positions not being known in the south, or not known because it was early in the primaries.

    If you are arguing that black and white southerners were more informed in February than the rest of the country now, please explain.

  272. 272.

    J R in WV

    @Trollhattan:

    Piketon, Ohio is the supporting small city for a uranium enrichment plant. So, no stress or tension there at all. I must confess that Mrs J reminded me of that.

    As a child we drove through Piketon, so between 50 and 60 years ago. I remember asking my Dad what that huge installation was, in the distance as we drove through on a public highway, and he said “That’s a uranium enrichment plant.”

    Ive seen a couple of others around the country, most are in very rural areas, for some reason. Piketon seems pretty rural to me, although Ohio is full of small towns scattered a few miles apart, which keeps the population higher than really rural areas.

  274. 274.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland: My operative theory will be that Sanders wins in places where the white people are too stupid to know what’s good for them but lash out based on name identification and feelings. It’s as well thought out as your theory about Clinton and black people.

  275. 275.

    redshirt

    @BR: He already replied:

    I didn’t put it in written form. But it is on video and when the team has key pieces ready I’ll surely share them.

  277. 277.

    BR

    @Bob In Portland:

    Bob, this same reasoning could have been used by the Clinton camp in 2008 to say look, Obama’s numbers are slipping, he’s losing the later primaries by big margins, he got his big margins in the South, and who cares about the delegates he’s gotten. Actually it was used by Clinton’s campaign then. They were wrong then, just as the Sanders folks are wrong now.

  279. 279.

    Baud

    @Elie: But it’s not as if those states go back and forth between crazy left and crazy right. If the crazy beats out normal, it seems like it’s the crazy right that does it.

  281. 281.

    sharl

    A bit of Twitter-trivia on Giordano’s twitter-style, via his interactions with an ally:

    Martin Longman @BooMan23

    @pbriggsiam I’m not as hostile as @AlGiordano but you should know, Patrick, that he and I see eye to eye on 90+% of what ails the left.

    ~~~

    AlGiordano ‏@AlGiordano

    Yes, but Martin, the closer we see things the more we’re supposed to hate each other! That’s the dudebro way!

    ~~~

    Martin Longman @BooMan23

    @AlGiordano LOL, but you’re not sucking me into that dudebro garbage. That’s your fight.

    ~~~

    AlGiordano ‏@AlGiordano

    Actually, it’s my ATM. The #DudeBroAThon should hit $15,000 for month of April today to http://authenticjournalism.org !

    ~~~

    I’m with Booman on that dude-bro shtick; it gets old real fast. On the other hand, Giordano appears to have monetized the shtick rather well, raising close to (or by now, over) $15,000 for his school from his fans. So whatever works, I guess.

    ETA: tweeked to include information from the last tweet.

  282. 282.

    Elie

    @Bob In Portland:

    “Clinton’s approval ratings keep going down”

    Of course Bernie’s whole recent “strategy” such as it is, has been to drive down her approval by driving up her negatives with ongoing negative attacks. He hasn’t stopped. She hasn’t said much about him at all — she doesn’t have to. Its his only possible way to try to drive her numbers down.

    Sad.

  284. 284.

    Bob In Portland

    @Elie: And the Republicans would never say a bad word about her.

    Hillary started this campaign in the negative as far as trustworthiness. She’s still in the negative. Sure, blame Sanders on negative campaigning. But is pointing out that H. Clinton is in deep to the 1% three billion dollars negative? Not here at Balloon Juice. So ask yourself, if Hillary is can be so seriously damaged by Sanders, what will the Republicans do?

  287. 287.

    Ruckus

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:
    Al’s tweet storm actually is about more than just the activists/organizers. If you read it with an open mind it is also about the every man part of the right. Yell and scream and blame everyone but yourself about what is perceived to be wrong with every thing. What gets blamed is different of course but blaming something or some group is the point. On the left the blame is placed on the system and on the right the blame falls to minorities and the liberal media. The right has used that blame to ferment hatred, the left side of his argument has just used it to give up. The activists on the right gets to benefit from the hate and the activists on the left get to play victim. It is of course a bit more complicated than this, but not by much.

  288. 288.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: I wonder how much his fire and brimstone has affected your dismissal of aid for the less privileged, but really it doesn’t speak to the issue.

    Why did Clinton get 83% of the vote in the Mississippi primary and 30% in Hawaii? Are Hawaiians less informed than Mississippians? Is it because there are so many whites in Hawaii? Is it because the more people have heard from Bernie and Hillary the more they like Bernie and the less they like Hillary?

  289. 289.

    les

    Another Bernie Boost from HaHa Goodman at Salon, that well known progressive outpost. When an idiot like him is on your side, it really may be time to reevaluate.

  291. 291.

    Elie

    @Bob In Portland:

    Bob — Bernie is not hurting her as much as the Obama coalition – fracturing and wedging between age groups, races, income, region of country — This is destructive not constructive! Why do you see that as some sort of winning strategy for Democratic values or progressive values. The sad thing, is y’all Bernie-ites don’t respect your own impact. Look — you are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. Bernie is losing and will lose ultimately. While losing, rather than helping us, he and his supporters are trying to divide us rather than unifying. I am sorry that he wasn’t a better candidate but he is not ready for the office of President. He is losing fair and square.

  293. 293.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    Why did Clinton get 83% of the vote in the Mississippi primary and 30% in Hawaii?

    Bob, what is the ethnic makeup of the voters in Mississippi versus the ethnic makeup of the voters in Hawaii?

    We’ll wait here while you look that up. Hint: not all minority groups are the same. There’s more than “white” and “not white” in this world.

  294. 294.

    Bob In Portland

    @redshirt: So you’re just betting on horse races. I agree. She probably will. And she will probably get us into more wars because she’s shown throughout her life that she supports wars and coups as a means of increasing corporate control over the world. And the lower three-quarters of the US will become incrementally poorer and the top tiers will get ice cream. And America Ferrera will intoduce Malala at a Clinton Foundation talk about how important it is for girls to read while Boing jets bomb Yemen back into the stone age.

  296. 296.

    Elie

    @Bob In Portland:

    Hawaii is a caucus. Remember the caucus stuff…The way delegates are awarded are very quirky. Please memorize this… you keep forgetting — it is not one person one vote.

  299. 299.

    debbie

    Bernie is losing and will lose ultimately. While losing, rather than helping us, he and his supporters are trying to divide us rather than unifying.

    At the same time, more than a few Clinton supporters insist on gloating, belittling, and demeaning. If you want others to join your cause, make nice. That’s a lesson from kindergarten.

  301. 301.

    Major Major Major Major

    @debbie:

    At the same time, more than a few Clinton supporters insist on gloating, belittling, and demeaning. If you want others to join your cause, make nice. That’s a lesson from kindergarten.

    Man, I can’t remember Bernie supporters even once doing that! Goose, gander, pot, kettle, whatever. This is fucking Balloon-Juice.

    I’m gracious in public.

  303. 303.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: Break it down for me. I keep looking across the internet and can’t find the breakdowns.

    Are you insinuating that there are more black voters by percentage in Mississippi than in Hawaii? Yes, but there are more minorities in Hawaii percentage-wise than in Mississippi. Are you saying that Pacific Islanders are more racist than southern blacks? And at the time Clinton pulled in higher percentage of white voters in Mississippi than outside the south. Are you saying that white Mississippians are less prejudiced than whites outside the south?

    So why was Mississippi so in the bag for Clinton as opposed to the rest of the country outside the south? It wasn’t just black voters. There are several theories. Few in Mississippi knew who about Sanders in February is one, because as the primaries move on Sanders generally has polled better with all groups while H. Clinton’s dominance has diminished. So what gives, Mnem?

  305. 305.

    J R in WV

    @Bob In Portland:

    Bob i p says Southern Blacks are:

    …. Much like the southern whites who voted for Clinton by large margins. Nostalgia and the chain of command.

    And he obviously doesn’t see this is racist at all, right? Couldn’t be because they see clearly who has the better chance of improving their lives? Couldn’t be because they have more experience with politicians who are all blow hot air and no get things done? Like BiP?

  306. 306.

    les

    @debbie:

    At the same time, more than a few Clinton supporters insist on gloating, belittling, and demeaning. If you want others to join your cause, make nice. That’s a lesson from kindergarten.

    Certainly wouldn’t want to hurt the tender fee fees of the people calling us corrupt lying whores. Too bad making the country better within the system can’t be your cause. If Bernie wins, helped by my vote if he’s the nominee, I’ll stand outside McConnell’s and Ryan’s windows with you to force them to adopt The Bernie Plan.

  309. 309.

    FlipYrWhig

    @debbie:

    If you want others to join your cause, make nice.

    YOUR CANDIDATE IS A BLOOD DRENCHED WARMONGER WHO’S A STREETWALKER ON WALL STREET AND ALSO YOU CATCH MORE FLIES WITH HONEY THAN VINEGAR, BITCH

  310. 310.

    J R in WV

    @Bob In Portland:

    Tell us why southerners of all races voted for Hillary by such wide margins.

    Duh! Because they thought she would be a better President than the other guy? You think maybe?

    Duh!

  311. 311.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    And America Ferrera will intoduce Malala at a Clinton Foundation talk about how important it is for girls to read while Boing jets bomb Yemen back into the stone age.

    Yeah, what does an Afghan girl who was shot in the head by extremists and barely survived know about war anyway? You really need to get in Malala’s face and tell her she doesn’t know shit about how bad war is.

    Break it down for me. I keep looking across the internet and can’t find the breakdowns.

    Really? You can’t even figure out the ethnic makeup of the two states and you’re trying to lecture us about what “minorities” really want?

    Maybe you should try and puzzle out the fact that more than one ethnic group exists outside of white people before you try to pontificate on what “minorities” really want.

  312. 312.

    Bob In Portland

    From Nate Silver:

    On Tuesday, for example, Sanders won the very liberal vote in New York by 12 percentage points, even as he lost somewhat liberals by 18 points and moderates/conservatives by 32 points.

    So maybe it’s just that neoliberals aren’t as liberal as liberals, and you guys aren’t as liberal as you’d like to think of yourselves. Maybe the South, to include blacks and whites, isn’t as liberal as outside the south.

    But it’s telling that you neoliberals like to point to the black support in the south as proof for H. Clinton’s liberalness when she isn’t.

    Hey, we’re over the primary debate, right? Your side won. You will have Clinton in the general. Hip hip hooray. Good times ahead, just like Obama only better. Incrementally.

  314. 314.

    Bob In Portland

    @J R in WV: Then why is the rest of the country not so onboard? Think hard. The southern primaries were at the beginning of the primaries. Do you think that people were less informed about Sanders back in February? Or what?

    How about this: The South is more conservative than the rest of the country. Hillary is a conservative Dem.

  315. 315.

    different-church-lady

    Jesus Christ, can’t Bernie just concede so we can get on with the hard work of undermining Hillary?

  316. 316.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: Did I say that Malala knows nothing about war? No.

    So why did the South vote overwhelmingly for Hillary and she can’t duplicate the percentages outside the south?

  318. 318.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Bob In Portland:

    So maybe it’s just that neoliberals aren’t as liberal as liberals, and you guys aren’t as liberal as you’d like to think of yourselves

    Remember, kids, being as liberal as possible is the only conceivable optimization function in American politics!

  319. 319.

    ? Martin

    @Elie: Well, western states, in part to do being geographically much larger and much wealthier in terms of natural resources have always been warier of federalism. More likely to vote democrats at the state and local level than at the federal level. In the northeast where states are small and much more dependent on interstate issues, federalism is much more appealing.

    There’s lots of stuff like that running like veins through various states, shaped from past failures either locally or federally, and so on.

  321. 321.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland: Oh my Lord, first of all, you STILL have no idea what “neoliberal” means. Second of all, I have no complaint about the idea that “very liberal” people prefer Sanders to Clinton. The obvious response to that is a variant on the Adlai Stevenson quip about “every thinking person”:

    That’s not enough, madam, we need a majority!

    And, frankly, the entire Bernie Sanders campaign smacks of a feel-good exercise by avowedly “very liberal” people to parade their very-liberalness and see how many of them there might be. And to feel like, by gathering in packs, that the answer must be A LOT. Look! So many! Unfortunately for the parade, there are numbers between “two” and “many,” and whaddya know, the many it feels like there are _gets totally crushed by the many more there are of people who like the other gal_.

  323. 323.

    Gin & Tonic

    @redshirt:

    I had a perfect fire.

    Don’t know about Maine, but down here in southern New England the wildfire danger is very high, since it’s been so dry. I’m hoping you didn’t ignite that fire outdoors.

  325. 325.

    J R in WV

    @Bob In Portland:

    Dude, Your premise is invalid. In what world is Clinton losing demographics to Sanders? Because it isn’t this one in any way shape of form!!!

    Hillary Clinton won this week’s primary by a bunch! She won every demographic there is in New York! She has beaten Bernie Sanders in most big states, most southern states, most western states, which is why she’s ahead of Sanders by millions of votes and hundreds of delegates!

    You display an ignorance of the meaning of the words you use, and the situation you attempt to describe. Go on, Bob in Portland, please continue. In a couple more weeks Madame Secretary will become Madame Presidential Nominee, and then Madame President!!! And we will get to think of you, all puzzled about how this can be happening, after you said it was unpossible.

    ;-)

  328. 328.

    Bob In Portland

    @Elie: Never said that Bernie wasn’t losing, and I haven’t predicted that he’ll win. I just got my voter pamphlet today. You don’t mind if the folks in Oregon get to vote, do you?

    My opinion is that Clinton is more deleterious to the bottom seventy-five percent of Americans than Bernie would be. If you look at one statistic, where the wealth has gone, you’ll see that the plight of the poor and the working class and what’s left of the middle class, the neoliberals here at BJ excepted, it’s been going down steadily. Why do you think that is? Do you think that free trade has hurt the working class? Do you think that jailing more blacks has hurt the working class? Why do you trust neoliberalism to succeed any more than “trickle down”?

  329. 329.

    Mnemosyne

    @debbie:

    Who’s a better friend, the one who says, “I don’t know, I don’t think this new boyfriend of yours is going to work out,” or the one who lets you crash and burn and then says, “I knew all along it wasn’t going to work”?

  330. 330.

    FlipYrWhig

    @? Martin: Probably the reason why Bernie Sanders gets more votes of white people in the west is that they’re all immersed in hatred for the government and want it to be run by the person who shows the least interest. It’s as plausible as Bob’s theory that black people vote for Clinton because they remember her from Back Then, when de times they wuz better.

  331. 331.

    different-church-lady

    @Bob In Portland:

    My opinion is that Clinton is more deleterious to the bottom seventy-five percent of Americans than Bernie would be.

    So you admit Sanders would be somewhat deleterious?

  332. 332.

    Bob In Portland

    @Gin & Tonic: I did. Your point? Clinton did her best around Carnegie Hall. Independents didn’t get to vote. So, yes, when the Democratic Party excludes independents from its primaries more voters tilt to Hillary. Are you hoping the independents stay away from the polls in the fall?

  333. 333.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @J R in WV:

    She won every demographic in Florida too, but everyone knows Florida can be dismissed as unimportant and votes there shouldn’t count because shut up that’s why.

  334. 334.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    And America Ferrera will intoduce Malala at a Clinton Foundation talk about how important it is for girls to read while Boing jets bomb Yemen back into the stone age.

    Your words, Bob. It’s particularly striking that you chose a Latina actress to include in the smear as well. Why is that, exactly?

    And, like everyone else, I’m trying to figure out when New York slid below the Mason-Dixon Line. Was there an earthquake I didn’t hear about?

  335. 335.

    singfoom

    Jesus, can’t a man read a comment thread that’s not a BS vs. HRC pissing match? How did a Harriet Tubman thread devolve into this?

    It was probably the villagers.

    ETA: It was the neoliberal villagers.

  336. 336.

    Bob In Portland

    @different-church-lady: You are somewhat deleterious. I’m sure you’ve got your good points too. You’re good enough, as our current President once said.

    Have you figured out why Clinton’s percentages outside the South don’t match the rest of the country?

  338. 338.

    Mnemosyne

    @Bob In Portland:

    So, yes, when the Democratic Party excludes independents from its primaries more voters tilt to Hillary.

    Yeah, it’s so weird that Democrats want to choose the candidate from the Democratic Party rather than letting a bunch of ratfuckers in. Inconceivable!

    And given that more people in New York voted for Hillary than voted for all of the Republican candidates combined, I have a feeling Hillary is going to do just fine in her home state even if the independents stay home and sulk.

  340. 340.

    Bob In Portland

    @Mnemosyne: Mnem, as I said a hundred comments up you neoliberals rely on your icons to prove other people racist. It’s pathetic, really. If you want to know why I mentioned America Ferrera and Malala you’ll have to read Thomas Frank’s LISTEN, LIBERAL. He describes a Clinton Foundation get together. But since you won’t read it you’ll never know. Safe in your neoliberal cocoon.

    By the way, I noticed that there was a lot of direct insulting about Rosario Dawson around these parts. Have you accused your fellow Ballooneers of being racist? Of course not. You are a pathetic little neoliberal who has to justify her “standing” by punching down. So you just go on punching, neoliberal.

  341. 341.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Bob In Portland: Have you figured out why Sanders got such a higher percentage in lopsidedly Republican states like Idaho, Kansas, and Oklahoma? What if I said it was because his message resonates with their deep-seated conservative ideals? Now, you’ll say, “Well, harrumph harrumph, everyone knows that’s ridiculous,” but you’ve offered offensive and laughable theories for Clinton victories, so, you know, I guess you’ll have to disprove this one too.

  343. 343.

    PurpleGirl

    @Mnemosyne: Marian Anderson was attractive and was very elegant.

    Also pictures from the 1800s tended to be stern and somber because the subject had to stay so still while the picture was being taken. Didn’t instant shots back then, it could a few minutes to make the exposure.

  344. 344.

    different-church-lady

    @singfoom:

    How did a Harriet Tubman thread devolve into this?

    I don’t know, having not read the whole thing, but I did know it had happened just by looking at the number of comments before I even opened it.

  345. 345.

    Bob In Portland

    @FlipYrWhig: Does it? Do conservatives in Idaho want an end to the drug war? Do they want a change in the tax schedule so the rich pay more? Perhaps it’s Sanders’ talking about Black Lives Matter. Or his opposition to free trade deals.

    You tell me. If you think that it’s because he’s white you may be missing something. Hillary’s white too.

  348. 348.

    Cacti

    @Bob In Portland:

    Are you hoping the independents stay away from the polls in the fall?

    You mean the independents who voted 55% for Romney in 2012?

    Guilty. I don’t much care if they show up or not.

  349. 349.

    Bob In Portland

    @FlipYrWhig: And that works because white southerners want more government control?

    See, you don’t want to admit that maybe people in the South voted for Hillary because they didn’t know anything about Sanders and they didn’t stay up until 3 a.m. on Sunday morning to hear them debate.

  352. 352.

    Bob In Portland

    @Cacti: I saw somewhere that there are more independents than either Republicans or Democrats. Where do you want independents to go?

  357. 357.

    Bob In Portland

    @singfoom: I have to deposit my Oregon refund check. The walking is good for the blood pressure.

    So, to summarize, no one here can offer a grand theory as to why Hillary’s numbers outside the South don’t match her numbers in the South, except “You’re a racist” even when I point out that she got similar majorities with white southern voters.

    I guess it will remain a mystery here at BJ.

  358. 358.

    redshirt

    @Gin & Tonic: I don’t think we’re as dry as you are, but I am aware so had a hose ready as well as buckets of water and a shovel. I sprayed down the area before I started and I never let the fire get too big. Next morning – no fires.

    Normally I wouldn’t have had a fire, but circumstances demanded it.

  360. 360.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @singfoom:

    Jesus, can’t a man read a comment thread that’s not a BS vs. HRC pissing match?

    And the portions are so small!

  363. 363.

    Jack the Second

    @Bob In Portland: How about “the Southern Democrats have something to lose”?

    I’m a rich, straight, land-owning white guy in upstate New York. I am going to be fine. We could elect Ted Cruz with strong Republican majorities in Congress to appoint both Scalia’s replacement and replacements for Ginsburg, Breyer, and Kennedy (83, 77, and 79 years old) and I would still be fine.

    How do you think things are going to be in the South if we don’t get a good Democrat in office in 2016?

  365. 365.

    Miss Bianca

    you know, I think it’s way past the point here of presuming that Bob is arguing in good faith. He’s not. He’s just sea-lioning.

  367. 367.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Miss Bianca:

    BINGO. Don’t know why anyone bothers with him, cuz I won’t. My scroll wheel was invented for BiP and mclaren.

  368. 368.

    eemom

    @redshirt:

    I discovered Girodano in 2008 and loved him instantly. All Democratic politicians should listen to him.

    Ah, that was back in the day when he regularly reamed now-has-beens Greenwald and Hamsher new assholes. Good times.

    On another note, can someone please tell me wtf a “neoliberal” is?

  369. 369.

    Miss Bianca

    @different-church-lady:

    Compare and contrast: Voila le Bob:

    So, to summarize, no one here can offer a grand theory as to why Hillary’s numbers outside the South don’t match her numbers in the South, except “You’re a racist” even when I point out that she got similar majorities with white southern voters.

    Voila le sea-lion:

    Would you mind showing me evidence of any neagtive thing any sea lion has ever done to you?

    It’s uncanny!

  371. 371.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @eemom:

    On another note, can someone please tell me wtf a “neoliberal” is

    enemies of the dudebro revolution

  372. 372.

    Larv

    @Gin & Tonic:
    I’m glad somebody else remembers that thread. Christ, that was like banging my head against a wall. There’s no point in arguing with BiP, as he’s so convinced that everyone else is either bought fat-cats or stupid sheeple that he’ll ignore any and all evidence that contradicts him. He’s exhibit A for Dunning-Kruger.

  373. 373.

    singfoom

    @eemom:
    Someone who endorses neoliberal economic policies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

    SNIP
    Its advocates support extensive economic liberalisation policies such as privatisation, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12] Neoliberalism is famously associated with the economic policies introduced by Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and Ronald Reagan in the United States.
    SNIP

  374. 374.

    different-church-lady

    @Gin & Tonic: Hmmm…

    I suggest people read Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola, by Leonard Horowitz

    I suspect Bob may be a really incompetent book publicist.

  375. 375.

    different-church-lady

    @singfoom: That’s what it actually means. The way Bob uses it is similar to the way a six-year-old would use the slur “fag” on a playground.

  378. 378.

    singfoom

    @different-church-lady: I have not the time nor the inclination to delve into how anyone other than myself defines a given word. I’m not a prescriptive grammar person either. I’m just rolling with the definition of the word I know.

    I would suggest that Bob misuses it just like he misuses villagers all the time, As someone mentioned above, it looks like he’s just sea-lioning.

  380. 380.

    ? Martin

    @eemom:

    On another note, can someone please tell me wtf a “neoliberal” is?

    I should probably volunteer for this one since it’s pretty easily attached to me. It’s an economic approach that leans away from various state-controlled approaches to a market based approach. Everything in the US from Carter onward has been various degrees of neoliberal – deregulation of trucking and airlines, free trade, deregulation of financial markets, etc.

    The problem with the term is it gets applied to everything that doesn’t resemble Soviet (or at least India) style central planning. So even modest free market policies or free market policies balanced with social policies get labeled as neoliberal. Given the range of situations in which the label is applied to me, my sense is that anything which does not involve government setting both the price of good sold and the wage to be earned in the production of the item is neoliberal.

    For example, I’m of the opinion that business taxes should be zero, but income and capital gains from investors in those businesses should be taxed at a high rate. The problem as I see it is that business taxes are extracted from wages and not passed on to investors, so not only do they not contribute to income equality, they make the problem worse. Income inequality is not a problem within a corporate wage distribution, it’s a problem between workers and investors (which are often executives being paid with stock over wages). The solution is to tax the investors, not the company. Since the company is nothing but the sum of the investors, government revenue would be similar, and the company would have no disincentive not to invest in expansion. There would be no barrier to repatriating profits either so money could return to the US for investment. Given the glut of capital we have (~6 trillion dollars doing nothing) taxing investment shouldn’t be a problem (contrary to what republicans say).

    To someone who views tax policy and market dynamics through a 1960s lens, I sound like a fucking lunatic trying to drown Exxon in a sea of their own cash by taking a regulatory (tax) choke off of them, even though it would make it easier for companies to expand, hire workers, and the 1% would see their taxes go up substantially. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  381. 381.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @redshirt:

    Normally I wouldn’t have had a fire, but circumstances demanded it.

    Burning those Baud! lawn signs, eh?

  382. 382.

    singfoom

    @? Martin:

    Given the range of situations in which the label is applied to me, my sense is that anything which does not involve government setting both the price of good sold and the wage to be earned in the production of the item is neoliberal.

    I think the most accurate description I’ve seen is:

    In summary, neoliberalism seeks unbridled accumulation of capital through a rollback of the state, and limits its functions to minimal security and maintenance of law, fiscal and monetary discipline, flexible labor markets, and liberalization of trade and capital flows.[114]

    So you know, everything I see wrong with the current configuration of the US economy.

  383. 383.

    eemom

    @singfoom: @? Martin:

    Thanks to both of you. There does seem to be some tension between those two definitions….

    Anyway, seems wrong to call it “neoLIBERALISM”, a nomenclature which seems to invite clueless idiots to misuse it. Speaking hypothetically, of course.

  384. 384.

    J R in WV

    @Bob In Portland:

    The fact that the numbers/proportions of Secretary Clilnton’s support change from primary to primary does NOT show that her support is dropping, or rising, since she wiped the mat with her win in NY last Tuesday. From state to state, the numbers will vary, which proves that states differ in many ways. Nothing else.

    Bob, I’m so glad you’re here, it’s so easy to disprove what you allege. For one thing, you rarely supply any real evidence, and for another, you misunderstand the evidence you do barely provide.

    Keep it up, Komrade!

  385. 385.

    Bob In Portland

    @Gin & Tonic: From the Congressional Record, July 1, 1969:

    SYNTHETIC BIOLOGICAL AGENTS
    There are two things about the biological agent field I would like
    to mention. One is the possibility of technological surprise. Molecular
    biology is a field that is advancing very rapidly and eminent biologists
    believe that within a period of 5 to 10 years it would be possible to
    produce a synthetic biological agent, an agent that does not naturally
    exist and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired.
    MR. SIKES. Are we doing any work in that field?
    DR. MACARTHUR. We are not.
    MR. SIKES. Why not? Lack of money or lack of interest?
    DR. MACARTHUR. Certainly not lack of interest.
    MR. SIKES. Would you provide for our records information on what
    would be required, what the advantages of such a program would be,
    the time and the cost involved?
    DR. MACARTHUR. We will be very happy to.
    (The information follows:)

    The dramatic progress being made in the field of molecular biology led us to
    investigate the relevance of this field of science to biological warfare. A small group of experts considered this matter and provided the following observa- tions:
    1. All biological agents up the the present time are representatives of naturally
    occurring disease, and are thus known by scientists throughout the world. They
    are easily available to qualified scientists for research, either for offensive or
    defensive purposes.
    2. Within the next 5 to 10 years, it would probably be possible to make a new
    infective microorganism which could differ in certain important aspects from
    any known disease-causing organisms. Most important of these is that it might
    be refractory to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we
    depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease.
    3. A research program to explore the feasibility of this could be completed
    in approximately 5 years at a total cost of $10 million.
    4. It would be very difficult to establish such a program. Molecular biology
    is a relatively new science. There are not many highly competent scientists in the
    field. Almost all are in university laboratories, and they are generally adequately
    supported from sources other than DOD. However, it was considered possible
    to initiate an adequate program through the National Academy of Sciences –
    National Research Council (NAS-NRC).
    The matter was discussed with the NAS-NRC, and tentative plans were plans were made
    to initiate the program. However decreasing funds in CB, growing criticism
    of the CB program, and our reluctance to involve the NAS-NRC in such a con-
    troversial endeavor have led us to postpone it for the past 2 years.
    It is a highly controversial issue and there are many who believe such
    research should not be undertaken lest it lead to yet another method of massive
    killing of large populations. On the other hand, without the sure scientific
    knowledge that such a weapon is possible, and an understanding of the ways it
    could be done, there is little that can be done to devise defensive measures.
    Should an enemy develop it, there is little doubt that this is an important area
    of potential military technological inferiority in which there is no adequate
    research program.

    So we get the same old song and dance that we better develop it before the Russians.

    Well, what happened? Did we develop it or did the military just abandon it?

    In the early 70s Litton Bionetics, a military contractor, spent time and money researching monkey and other animal viruses. In 1981 the world is filled with AIDS, but the spread of the infection seems to have more in common with various innoculation programs than with any reasonable outbreak.

    But we’re basically back to the same thing as MH370. A couple days after the plane went down Kerry repeatedly said that the US knew exactly where the missile was launched. He repeated this for a couple of weeks. But he and the US have refused to share this information with any investigative forum, to include the Dutch investigation. Why do you think that is?

    The consequences of the airline shootdown has been an American-led series of economic sanctions against Russia over something it can supposedly prove but won’t. It’s coincided with American attempts to destroy Russia’s economy through Saudi Arabia flooding the market with oil.

    The theory of AIDS as a biological weapon like Dr. MacArthur was asking funding for in 1969, and which Litton Bionetics and Robert Gallo were working on in the early seventies, would be easily dismissed if we could see the list of gay men who were part of the hepatitis B innoculation program in several American cities, to include San Francisco, six months before the outbreak of AIDS in those places. But we can’t.

    You can choose to believe that AIDS arose naturally in monkees in Africa and then suddenly spread to gay men in the Castro. That’s safer than questioning your government.

  387. 387.

    Bob In Portland

    @Gin & Tonic: So, your point is that she continues to hold sway with black voters? Okay. Why? Why is her appeal with neoliberals here in the BJ village and blacks? Because both of you want a 12 dollar minimum wage and not a 15 dollar minimum wage? Both of you want charter schools? Both of you like deregulation of industries?

    I’m willing to hear your grand explanation of it.

    Conversely, are young people of all races and sexual persuasions racists? Are all white people except for Mississippians racists?

    Give us your wise explanation.

  389. 389.

    horatius

    @Bob In Portland: Like this.

    From all that I’ve seen, southern blacks voted for Clinton because they recognized her name and connected it with vaguely better times during the 90s and because the Democratic machine in the south told them to. Much like the southern whites who voted for Clinton by large margins. Nostalgia and the chain of command.

    That’s fucking racist.

  391. 391.

    horatius

    @Bob In Portland:

    Conversely, are young people of all races and sexual persuasions racists? Are all white people except for Mississippians racists?

    Give us your wise explanation.

    Can you point out where in this comments section anybody said anything simliar to this? Don’t move the goalposts or setup strawmen.

  392. 392.

    Larv

    @Bob In Portland:

    In the early 70s Litton Bionetics, a military contractor, spent time and money researching monkey and other animal viruses. In 1981 the world is filled with AIDS, but the spread of the infection seems to have more in common with various innoculation programs than with any reasonable outbreak.

    The theory of AIDS as a biological weapon like Dr. MacArthur was asking funding for in 1969, and which Litton Bionetics and Robert Gallo were working on in the early seventies, would be easily dismissed if we could see the list of gay men who were part of the hepatitis B innoculation program in several American cities, to include San Francisco, six months before the outbreak of AIDS in those places. But we can’t.

    Jesus Fucking Christ, Bob, don’t make me go through this all again. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and you’re entirely ignorant of the relevant science. I tried to explain it to you in that thread G&T linked from ten years ago, but you’re apparently unable to absorb new information. All the questions you ask are ones I answered a decade ago.

  393. 393.

    Bob In Portland

    @J R in WV:

    The fact that the numbers/proportions of Secretary Clilnton’s support change from primary to primary does NOT show that her support is dropping, or rising, since she wiped the mat with her win in NY last Tuesday.

    From DownWithTyranny:

    Clinton’s image is at or near record lows among major demographic groups. Among men, she is at minus 40. Among women, she is at minus nine. Among whites, she is at minus 39. Among white women, she is at minus 25. Among white men, she is at minus 72. Her favorability among whites at this point in the election cycle is worse than President Obama’s ever has been, according to Bill McInturff, a Republican pollster who conducted the NBC-Wall Street Journal poll with Democratic pollster Peter Hart.
    In a section I didn’t quote, McInturff, a Republican, but also one of the pollsters, also said this:
    “By any conventional standard, this is a candidate who’s been disqualified to be president [by the voters],” McInturff said. “Her terrible numbers for months have been masked because we have the one candidate in modern history who has worse numbers. The spectacle of Donald Trump has gotten so much attention that she’s slipped under the radar for what ought to be a real story. . . . Her numbers have gone from terrible to historic and disqualifying.”
    Her numbers have gone “from terrible to historic to disqualifying” because, according to unnamed “Democrats,” Bernie Sanders has attacked her “character”:
    Democrats see Sanders as an agent in Clinton’s decline, arguing that in recent weeks his attacks have been aimed less at policy differences and more at questions about her character. Sanders has attacked Clinton as being too cozy with Wall Street, too dependent on big money and for not releasing transcripts of her paid speeches to Goldman Sachs.

    “It’s hard to dispute the rising negatives,” said Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg. “I was actually surprised when Sanders began not just to make [the contest] that personal but appeared to be producing enduring damage.”
    This analysis, this framing, leads to important questions, I think:
    Character: Are attacks on Clinton’s ties to Wall Street actually attacks on her character, or just attacks on the system of which she’s a part?
    Fairness: Is it fair to Clinton to call the system corrupt and say Clinton is part of it?
    Is Sanders attacking Clinton’s character? I’ll let you answer; it’s a fairly subtle question. Is it fair to attack Clinton’s connection to the lobbyist–Wall Street–Washington system? Clinton has called it an “artful smear” to make such a connection. Is that really true? Is it fair to make this connection? Again, I’ll let you answer, but it’s a fairly subtle question. – See more at: http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/#sthash.zauAKfsZ.dpuf

    We’ve established that for Balloon Juicers the money connection between H. Clinton and Wall Street is of no consequence. So I guess Bernie is just picking on her.

  395. 395.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Bob In Portland: My only “point” was to provide statistics to disprove your canard about HRC’s support among blacks allegedly evaporating outside the South. The predominantly black neighborhoods of eastern Brooklyn and southern Queens aren’t south of much other than New England, and her performance there was on a par with her performance in the South, even though many weeks have passed during which Sanders campaigned heavily there. The electorate wasn’t buying what he’s selling, despite the increased exposure. When you peddle easily disprovable bullshit, I sometimes will spend a few minutes disproving it. I don’t have any interest in long discussions, though, sorry. Been there, done that. It’s not fruitful.

  396. 396.

    Bob In Portland

    @horatius: When you call me racist because I say that both blacks and whites in the south voted in large margins for Clinton in February, you intentionally left out white southerners. That’s being dishonest.

    I await someone here at BJ explaining why H. Clinton’s margins of victory with Southern voters, black and white, were so much greater than the rest of the country? I’ve offered several possible explanations:

    1. In February most voters in the South knew very little or nothing about Sanders. That would explain why his numbers get better as time goes on.

    2. Voters in elections where the Democratic Party’s voters are more disciplined, and where independents are excluded from the primary, tilt more for Hillary. That would include southern primaries.

    3. Information about Clinton’s “unique” relationship with the 1% is becoming better known as the primary season continues.

    I am willing for you, Horatius, to give your rationale.

  397. 397.

    Bob In Portland

    @Gin & Tonic: Didn’t say evaporate. I said that her numbers have gone down. I don’t think cherry-picking in Queens is quite the same as looking at say, statewide results in Michigan.
    Also, New York is her home state.

    But if your point is that H. Clinton consistently gets 80% of black votes everywhere, show me some proof and explain why she does so well with blacks and not with whites. Are whites all racists? Are men all sexists? What gives?

  398. 398.

    Bob In Portland

    @Larv: Avert your eyes and blame your asshole friends for bringing it up. If they keep bringing it up I’ll have to respond.

    By the way, whatever happened to those Litton Bionetic findings?

  402. 402.

    Larv

    @Bob In Portland:
    Bob, he brought it up because it’s a great example of why nobody should bother arguing with you. You’re exhibit A for Dunning-Kruger.

    By the way, whatever happened to those Litton Bionetic findings?

    Dealt with, Bob. Go back and read that old thread if you’re curious. Or anyone else, if you want to know why engaging with Bob on a serious level is unlikely to be fruitful or rewarding, unless you enjoy repeatedly banging your head against a wall.

  405. 405.

    Elie

    @Horatius:

    Well, when a sea lion confronts another male for territory, he can’t back down until he is driven back into the sea. They cut each other with their tusks, (smaller than walruses but still raise blood) and hit the chest region. Woe for the little one who gets in the middle. What is salient is that territory is maintained no matter what. His dudebro is actually Putin so he is used to defending absurdity and neo-narcissism…

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