Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

My right to basic bodily autonomy is not on the table. that’s the new deal.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!

Books are my comfort food!

There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Fear and negativity are contagious, but so is courage!

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

Trump should be leading, not lying.

How stupid are these people?

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.

I’m starting to think Jesus may have made a mistake saving people with no questions asked.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

Innocent people do not delay justice.

Tide comes in. Tide goes out. You can’t explain that.

75% of people clapping liked the show!

Their shamelessness is their super power.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / The Easter Rising

The Easter Rising

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easter*

PBS is airing a three part documentary on the Easter Rising tonight. SundanceTV is also showing a three part series on the Rising starting tonight as well (h/t: Charles Pierce). 100 years ago today a group of Irish republicans launched an insurrection against the British occupation and in support of home rule and autonomy. One of the most remarkable things about the Easter Rising was the significant role played by over 200 women from the Cumman na mBan/The Irishwomen’s Council. The role of women in revolutionary movements and other forms of low intensity warfare is often overlooked or under appreciated. While the role of women in seeking to end revolutionary conflict, especially that in Northern Ireland is well known, what is less often remarked upon is the role women play in promoting revolutionary conflict. In regards the Irish Troubles, women played a tremendous role in transmitting the ideals of Irish republicanism and the idea and cause of a free and autonomous Ireland. This often took the form of inculcating these beliefs in their children and grandchildren and provides an excellent example of social learning. I’m looking forward to seeing how tonight’s documentary deals with these and other issues relating to the desire for autonomy, self determination, and the decision making process that leads a significant portion of a movement to chose to rebel, rather than take some other form of political or social action.

* Image found here.

Reader Interactions

170Comments

  4. 4.

    patroclus

    Here in Chicago, PBS aired it about three weeks ago. It’s not bad but I liked The Last September, The Wind that Shakes the Barley and Michael Collins better. The best part (of the three) is the third one about the aftermath. Personally, I’m gonna watch Game of Thrones. I wonder what Tyrion’s been up to lately.

  6. 6.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Baud: she could never get the irish accent right and they gave up after the first season (that was a fun show). But she did a mean tango (video)

  7. 7.

    inventor

    I knew an elderly Irishman who lived in the south of England (of all places). He was a “pensioner” and lived a very humble life in a linoleum floored “council flat”. I was visiting him once and he brought out his personal treasure: two medals his mother had earned during the uprising and the fight to follow. I remember the fire in his old eyes when he told of his mother’s exploits.

  12. 12.

    ThresherK

    Spousal ThresherK (who has consumed most of the Twilight things but knows they’re not great) is watching Snow White and the Huntsman on basic cable. Friday she came home and said she was thinking of getting it at the library but it was checked out. I said “It’s on cable 5x a week and even if edited for content and to run in the time alotted I don’t think you’re missing anything”.

    Did I steer her wrong? What’s your favorite “not worth the effort” movie for those who have basic cable but don’t Netflix?

  13. 13.

    PhoenixRising

    Today’s assignment for online HS–as parents we reserve the right to add to the burden of getting this child educated–was to examine this document and diagram its relationship to 2 of its ancestors: the Declaration (150 years earlier) and Lincoln’s greatest hits (Gettysburg & 2nd inaugural are IMO the founding docs of the Republic as it stood after the reorganization with firearms, DBA the Civil War). It was fun, and I highly recommend!

  14. 14.

    Omnes Omnibus

    My local PBS is doing “Call the Midwife,” “Granchester,” and “Mr. Selfridge.”

  15. 15.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @JPL: I used to look forward to their summer runs. It conveyed the warmth and vitality of summer. The protective mom, the goof ball friends, the Bonnie and Clyde protagonists, the character acting, especially by Tim Matheson and Tricia Helfer.

  18. 18.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    “In regards the Irish Troubles, women played a tremendous role in transmitting the ideals of Irish republicanism and the idea and cause of a free and autonomous Ireland.” And yet the independent Irish Free State and the Republic were backwards, reactionary theocratic states in which women had crappy rights (at least until relatively recently).

  20. 20.

    Adam L Silverman

    @inventor: The scholarly research on it indicates that women not only fought, but in the time periods where they were less involved operationally, they played the important role of teaching the ideals to their children and grandchildren. While I can’t recall the title or author of the specific study, I remember that the likelihood of one adopting Irish republican ideals significantly increased from the presence of having a grandmother or great grandmother in the household who had been involved with the movement.

  21. 21.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    GOT and OMG Call the Midwife. This is the thalidomide year. Jenny Agutter was born for this role.

  25. 25.

    gogol's wife

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Nobody’s been discussing Grantchester this season. I think it’s as good as or better than last season. Really looking forward to tonight.

  26. 26.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Amanda in the South Bay: This often happens. Its been documented in regards to many a revolution, rebellion, and/or insurrection. And forms the basis of one of the running themes/plot lines in A Handmaid’s Tale. It should also be a warning to be careful what one wishes for. If Phyllis Schafly or Ann Coulter ever get the socio-political, socio-cultural, and religious revolution and transformation that they want, they aren’t going to be happy to what happens to them as a result. Consistency, small minds, hobgoblins…

  29. 29.

    schrodinger's cat

    The British killed more people when they fired at unarmed protestors at Jallianwala Baug in 1919 than the Easter rising in Ireland. But they were more wonderful than Belgium in Congo so we should all praise how cute QEII looks with all her grand kids in the soft focus Annie Leibovitz portrait.

  31. 31.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @gogol’s wife: Did you know that the author of the Grantchester books was the son of an Archbishop of Canterbury? And that said Archbishop had served a junior officer in the Scots Guards and been awarded a Military Cross during WWII (just like Sidney Chambers)?

  32. 32.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: More or less. I’m just very, very sore from the gym on Friday and again earlier this evening. A TRX leg split, followed by the Helix, after being off for two and 1/2 weeks is not pleasant. Especially when combined with being on my feet in the kitchen all day Friday and yesterday. As well as helping to get the house set up. And it was a rough week all around. The one bright spot is that my new steam vac is amazing!

    And you? Did you survive your return to the ancestral homelands of Westchester County?

  33. 33.

    Mike J

    @Amanda in the South Bay:

    And yet the independent Irish Free State and the Republic were backwards, reactionary theocratic states in which women had crappy rights (at least until relatively recently).

    The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

  34. 34.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @Amanda in the South Bay: Indeed. Though my (at best half-educated) sense of it is that while Irish society was patriarchal, in practical terms family life was often heavily matriarchal. The culture seems to allow for women to be very forthright in personal life, and it seems a common Irish archetype of the wife who won’t put up with family situations as they are, and twists arms liberally as needed…. even if this involves cajoling people into maintaining an appropriate facade of patriarchy.

    Doesn’t seem that huge of a step from there to militating towards political outcomes also.

  35. 35.

    Mnemosyne

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    The English invaded Ireland at least 150 years before they went to India, so I think you’re going to end up with pretty similar body counts overall even though Ireland is a much smaller country. There’s a reason people in Ireland still spit when they say the name of Oliver Cromwell.

  36. 36.

    Adam L Silverman

    @schrodinger’s cat: I didn’t put the post up to diminish other’s struggles, against the British or anyone else, for autonomy and self determination.

    ETA: There are similarities and differences between the English occupation of Ireland and the British colonization of India and the establishment of the British Raj. That they were usually equally bad for the people in both places doesn’t diminish the suffering of either.

  39. 39.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: Of course they originally said they were just coming on holiday and, perhaps, considering a retirement home or two. But just as with old people from up North in Florida, once they get a toe hold, its all over.//

  41. 41.

    Mike J

    @Adam L Silverman:

    There are similarities and differences between the English occupation of Ireland and the British colonization of India and the establishment of the British Raj.

    My ancestors were picked up and forcibly relocated to Ireland to take over the land of different poor people. It was a nice way for the English to keep both of them down, and of course make them hate each other.

  43. 43.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Adam L Silverman: I have nothing against your post. AL’s FP post on QEII’s birthday portrait annoyed me a tad, that’s all. This post just reminded me of the other escapades of the supposedly benign Empire.
    @Mnemosyne: The Irish definitely got the short end of the stick where the British were concerned.

  44. 44.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: Einstein’s extra special theory of relativity: the longer you are with your relatives, the slower time passes.

  45. 45.

    redshirt

    May be a dumb question, but is the preponderance of people who identify as “Irish-American” (or “Italian-American” or “German-American” or have a European country flag sticker on their car) a response to the use of the phrase “African-American”?

  46. 46.

    Prescott Cactus

    Irish lasses had to follow the rule of law (Church) with no divorce or abortions for years and I’m not sure they have access to both even now.

    Caladaugh rings don’t make worthwhile to live there

  47. 47.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Oh Phyllis and Ann would be fine. The rules they want only apply to the little people. The weak ones who are foolish enough to be born into vulnerable situations.

    Also too:

    The raven himself is hoarse
    That croaks the fatal entrance of Duncan
    Under my battlements. Come, you spirits
    That tend on mortal thoughts, unsex me here,
    And fill me from the crown to the toe top-full
    Of direst cruelty! make thick my blood;
    Stop up the access and passage to remorse,
    That no compunctious visitings of nature
    Shake my fell purpose, nor keep peace between
    The effect and it! Come to my woman’s breasts,
    And take my milk for gall, you murdering ministers,
    Wherever in your sightless substances
    You wait on nature’s mischief! Come, thick night,
    And pall thee in the dunnest smoke of hell,
    That my keen knife see not the wound it makes,
    Nor heaven peep through the blanket of the dark,
    To cry ‘Hold, hold!’

  51. 51.

    ThresherK

    @schrodinger’s cat: Belgium doesn’t get enough “respect” for their colonial exploits, except among hardcore historians. In the Victorian / Edwardian age I think they sorta get lost amidst the growing British empire and the ambitions of Germany and Italy.

  54. 54.

    Iowa Old Lady

    I write it out in a verse–
    MacDonagh and MacBride
    And Connolly and Pearse
    Now and in time to be,
    Wherever green is worn,
    Are changed, changed utterly:
    A terrible beauty is born.

    Yeats, “Easter, 1916”

  56. 56.

    Prescott Cactus

    @redshirt: I don’t think so.

    The Southside of Chicago still has a rich tradition of the Irish proudly displaying their love of the “old country”.

  58. 58.

    JPL

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Although I was twelve, I remember the thalidomide tragedy because of Romper Room. It seemed so unfair to me, that those who could afford to leave the country and have a safe abortion, did so. Tonight’s episode of Call the Midwife was tragic.

  60. 60.

    ThresherK

    @redshirt: Oh, let’s not forget the Austro-Hungarian navy. They discovered Franz Josef Land, a bunch of rocks north of Russia that make Siberia look like Palm Springs.

    (I am a radio amateur. We know all the islands.)

  63. 63.

    burnspbesq

    I’m just as happy that my ancestors got out in 1847. There are parts of Ireland I love, but for all its natural beauty Donegal is a backwards shithole.

  66. 66.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @redshirt: There’s an argument that while you really didn’t want to get colonized, because it was going to suck, if all the ships were steaming your way, you were least worse off if the Brits got there first. They may or may not have been any less brutal, but if nothing else, after the dividing and conquering bit was firmly established they did at least tend to build a lot of infrastructure, and leave a functional civil service behind.

    Not a good deal. Remotely. But better than the your general other colonization options*

    * not that it was optional

  67. 67.

    JanieM

    @redshirt: That’s an interesting question. I was born in 1950, and none of those labels were in use when I was a kid. My family was “Italian” — I remember how flummoxed I was the first time I went overseas — it happens to have been Ireland, and I was 29 — and was laughed at when I said I was “Italian.” Someone in Ireland said to me, “You’re not Italian, you’re American, anyone can see that a mile away.” (After a couple of weeks in Ireland I too could tell an American a mile away.)

    But in the small midwestern town where I grew up, it was totally common to refer to “Finns” and “Swedes” and “the Irish” etc. One of the two major neighborhoods where immigrants from Italy and their families lived was called “Swedetown” — because the Swedes had been there first but had dispersed and assilated for the most part by the time I was growing up, but the name of the neighborhood hadn’t changed.

    I have never assumed that the use of the hyphenated versions was a reaction to “African American” (who, by the way, we called “Negroes” in polite/white/Italian-Catholic circles when I was a child). Maybe it’s just because of my personal anecdata, but I always thought it was a set of usages that grew up more or less together, and maybe even in reaction to the fact that people like me were in fact not “Italian.” I’d be curious to know if anyone has historical data on when the various usages became common.

    I will add that when I was a kid, all these distinctions based on ethnic origins were strongly tied to local rivalries as well as to pride in surviving culture (food, religion); it went without saying that everyone was American. Surely that didn’t need to be said, given that all these Italians and Poles and Hungarians and Irish guys (my dad’s generation) had just fought in WWII together – as Americans.

    And – it’s not just European ancestry that get hyphenated. Chinese-Americans come to mind.

  68. 68.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: I love that clip. I once used it in a seminar when discussing colonialization and the creation of counterinsurgency as a strategy to maintain colonial possessions.

  70. 70.

    JanieM

    @redshirt: “I have no evidence, but I doubt second generation Irish kids in America in 1910 self identified as “Irish-Americans”

    I’m not sure which direction you’re doubting. Third and fourth generation Irish kids I grew up with in the fifties in Ohio called themselves “Irish.” Granted, it wasn’t “Irish American.” As I said, we didn’t have that usage them.

    ETA — I don’t know how you want to number the generations, but my great-grandparents came to the US as adults and brought the grandparent generation, who were kids at the time they came.

  71. 71.

    Prescott Cactus

    @raven: They may have claimed to be giving him building materials so that he could becomes neighbor, I doubt the attendees at Marquette Park that day could pass a lie detector admitting such.

  72. 72.

    hedgehog the occasional commenter

    We’re recording it. My maternal grandparents were both Irish Catholics–both came through Ellis Island. They settled in Butte, Montana, where Grandpa was a copper miner. Family legend has it that one of my great-uncles took part in the Rising and was hanged for it. I haven’t dug to find if this is actually true; mr. h is an amateur genealogist who I’ll set on the case.

  74. 74.

    Adam L Silverman

    @LAO: We used that one a lot in Iraq. You can only do so much at full mental attention over a 12-16 hour shift before you need to do something silly. Watching clips of Izzard or Dunham and Peanut or other equally inane things in the team room often did it for us.

  75. 75.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @JanieM: I assumed the tagging of “-American” on the end was a way of trying to insert a link to the dominant ingroup. My annecdata reading is that it’s a label that groups started by claiming for themselves, as a defense against more pejorative labels that were used to ‘other’ them.

    but them I’m a social psychologist, so I’m bound to see it as a social psych mechanism aren’t I :)

  76. 76.

    redshirt

    @JanieM: Thanks for the great reply. Very interesting. I have no experience at all of ethnic rivalries, nor any sort of pride or tradition that comes from Europe. In most ways I have no sense of history at all, and I’m just an “American”.

    It’s purely subjective of course, but it feels like self-identifying as NATION-American is a new phenomena. I could totally be wrong.

  78. 78.

    Mnemosyne

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Ah, okay. It seemed like an odd comment to me because the Irish feel about as fondly towards the British monarchy as the Indians do, for very similar reasons.

    But, yes, the whiplash of B-J is that you have monarchy worship on the front page one day and bloody rebellion against that selfsame monarchy the next day. It just goes to show that we’re all a little mad here.

  79. 79.

    JanieM

    @Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown): I’d have to think about that one, but it might sort of explain why we don’t talk about “English-Americans.” (Which is the other side of my family, some of whom were on this continent as early as 1637; you can just imagine the culture gap in the house where I grew up. ;-) )

    THe hybrid phrase does manage to do what you describe *and* still honor a link to a heritage (oh, for a dish of my grandma’s “cavadills” (cavatelli)).

  81. 81.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown): While I don’t disagree (old style social behaviorist me self), some of it was a full circle reclamation of identity – both real and imagined. For many/most of the people in these ethnic groups (whether ethno-national, ethno-linguistic, or ethno-religious) the original struggles were to get her, then get in, then get established at the survival level. Then work their way up and try to gain full acceptance as part of the dominant cultural group: white. Once that happened, and a sense of comfort in regards to acceptance set in, then a point was reached where it was important to reclaim, reemphasize, or both some of the ancestral uniqueness and the contributions from that uniqueness that helped to build America. I can’t recall for sure, but I think African-American grew out of a different dynamic. It emerged as a way to emphasize both the ancestral connection back to Africa and to emphasize the Americanness at the same time. This is a different, and to a certain extent a more justifiably confrontational identification that the other ones.

  87. 87.

    Mnemosyne

    @redshirt:

    As other people have said, the adding of “-American” to the existing ethnic identity is what’s new, not the ethnic identity. My paternal aunts were Italians (sometimes even dagoes or wops) even though my grandfather immigrated here at the age of 2. Children of immigrants were identified as that ethnicity (or whatever you want to call it).

    I’m guessing that your family has been here for generations and is mostly of English descent. Those are the only ones I know of who didn’t get tagged with being Irish or Italian or Polish or German or Swedish or whatever.

  88. 88.

    Prescott Cactus

    @burnspbesq:

    “…but for all its natural beauty Donegal is a backwards shithole.”

    An Ol Irish slur: “Fvck the all in Donegal, where they eat potatoes, peels and all.

  91. 91.

    CarolDuhart2

    Women do all of the work in revolutionary movements that are necessary for longevity. They nurse the wounded, spy,, propagandize. In short, most of the quiet maintenance work of a revolution. Since it’s just that, women don’t get the credit (or attention) that male revolutionaries do.

    Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland. The Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland removed the constitutional prohibition of divorce. It was effected by the Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1995, which was approved by referendum on 24 November 1995 and signed into law on 17 June 1996 …

    IRISH DIVORCE LAW

  92. 92.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Mnemosyne: Annie Besant who was Irish was one of the key figures of the Indian National Congress in the pre-Gandhi era (before 1920s)

    In 1914 World War I broke out, and Britain asked for the support of its Empire in the fight against Germany. Echoing an Irish nationalist slogan, Besant declared, “England’s need is India’s opportunity”. As editor of the New India newspaper, she attacked the colonial government of India and called for clear and decisive moves towards self-rule. As with Ireland, the government refused to discuss any changes while the war lasted.

    In 1916 Besant launched the All India Home Rule League along with Lokmanya Tilak, once again modelling demands for India on Irish nationalist practices. This was the first political party in India to have regime change as its main goal.

  95. 95.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @Adam L Silverman: I’d imagine that there’s a certain amount of… momentum to it. Once it’s established for one group (I would guess African-American first? As an alternative to the older ‘negro’), then the construction gets picked up and coopted by other groups, maybe partly for its convenient heritage+ingroup belonging properties, and partly because it then becomes a general shorthand for ethnic origins.

  96. 96.

    burnspbesq

    @Adam L Silverman:

    ‘Lace-curtain Irish’ peel them to show how much more refined they are when compared to their backwards, country-ass, “shanty Irish” cousins.

  97. 97.

    Prescott Cactus

    @Adam L Silverman: when I visited Ireland, in the 1980’s corn on the cob was for cattle and people just didn’t eat it. Likely their only exposure was to field corn and not sweet corn…

  98. 98.

    PhoenixRising

    @Adam L Silverman:

    African-American grew out of a different dynamic. It emerged as a way to emphasize both the ancestral connection back to Africa and to emphasize the Americanness at the same time.

    In the late 1980s, ‘Black’ was the preferred nomenclature. ‘African-American’ arose from the frustration and real-world results that correlated with being the only ethnic group that wasn’t becoming ‘white’. It is now understood, with 25 years of demographic data to compare, that merely calling Black folks ‘African-Americans’ has had approximately 0% impact on income disparities, housing discrimination, hiring disparities, etc.

    But in 1989 it wasn’t inherently obvious that describing Black folks by skin color, vs. every other ethnicity by ethnic origin/home continent or nation as a -American, wasn’t a causal factor. Turns out to be correlated. Now we know.

    My sister is hard at work toiling in the field of biopsychology, meaning that her dissertation required her to ask 150 participants who identify as ‘African-American’ (not Black, colored or people of color) to complete an IAT (tool to measure what you really think about race), a survey about conscious attitudes re race, and some biometrics. Results are forthcoming. I’m pressuring her to write a popular non-fiction title explaining both why she’s doing this (because race isn’t genetically real, but race has biological effects…say what?) and what she’s learned.

  99. 99.

    Mnemosyne

    @redshirt:

    I think, however, that ethnic Canadians will be “Black Canadian” or “Chinese Canadian.” We may need an actual Canadian to verify that, though.

    I still think you have it backwards — ethnic groups have always been identified, but now everyone is tacking “-American” onto the end. If there weren’t African-Americans, you would still have 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants referred to as Irish or Chinese or Arab, but without that qualifier at the end.

  100. 100.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @redshirt: Ok, fine, I’ll be the contrarian.

    At least monarchy is honest. Economic mobility is statistically no higher in the US now than it is in the UK. But when the ideology says that anyone can make it, then that means it’s your fault if you don’t, so it’s alright to treat you like dirt until you pull your socks up (hence, arguably, the current British Tory mania for the notion). At least monarchy spells the inherent unfairness out loud.

  101. 101.

    redshirt

    @Adam L Silverman: As usual Adam you provide excellent insight. Your response is probably something near the truth of it.

    Having lived in Boston for 15 years I was exposed to so much “Irish Pride” from people who’s families have been in America over a hundred years. I could never figure it out.

  102. 102.

    redshirt

    @Mnemosyne: You’re probably right, and that it’s a sign of institutional racism. People who can pass as white have no real need to feel any threat to their citizenship, but skin color or other easy identification (aka Africans or Asians or Hispanics) are far more easily labeled as “Other”.

  103. 103.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown): I think you’re correct here. If I’m recalling, from my coursework on identity politics, the evolution for African Americans was to claim an identifier, or more than one, that was on their terms and described them in way that wasn’t solely in regard to physical identifier. That then transitioned around a bit with the inclusive for beyond the African American community People of Color.

  104. 104.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @redshirt: Studying prejudice at a Canadian university made for a linguistic quandry: “African-Canadians” just sounds like a lame weird artificial construction to most everybody, so… in the end we just went with “White” and “Black”.

  106. 106.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Prescott Cactus: I cannot tell you how many people here in the US I’ve had to explain to that corn is the generic term for anything that isn’t wheat whereas sweet corn or maize is what we call corn. This becomes much more important around Passover because there is, or, apparently was, a prohibition against these other grains that dated to the end of a wheat blight in Medieval Europe. I kept telling people that when they read a responsa from a 12th century rabbi banning corn, he’s not talking about sweet corn as no rabbi in the Pale of Settlement had ever seen sweet corn!

  107. 107.

    redshirt

    Just to be clear, I am 100% a supporter of the “melting pot” concept because at base, that’s America’s ultimate power: Anyone can be an American.

  110. 110.

    Adam L Silverman

    @PhoenixRising: If she wants to do something on it as a guest post, have her send it to me and I’ll put it up for her here.

    And thanks for filling in the back story. That’s basically what I thought had happened, but appreciate you making it explicit for us.

  111. 111.

    PhoenixRising

    @Mnemosyne: I am not an actual Canadian, but the preferred term by those who have immigrated is ‘Chinese-Canadian’, or in the cases I’m more familiar with, Cambodian-Canadian. (Some prefer ‘Khmerican’ which I love the whimsy of…)

    The difference with Chinese in diaspora is that the coin has 2 sides: North America and Europe have been slow to give full citizenship to Chinese immigrants; at the same time, because Chinese were set apart from other immigrant groups, by US and Canadian law until the 1960s, immigration was not as likely to be one-way and permanent (so in that sense, Chinese-Americans were and are more like Mexican-Americans, where Italian and Irish immigrants assimilated and hope their children will be prosperous enough to visit the old country).

    But the hyphen-American movements that eventually reached Black Americans…were in every other ethnicity first.

  114. 114.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @SiubhanDuinne: Sort of like “Amerindian” which I recall some history prof types using to refer to the indigenous populations… A clever construction that I’ve never heard outside of academe.

  115. 115.

    JanieM

    @redshirt: Yes indeed.

    I spent five weeks in China a few years ago with my son, who was teaching there, and the single thing I thought about the most was the difference between the U.S. and China on that score. But that topic is way too big for tonight.

  116. 116.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman: Stanley Karnow’s book Paris in the Fifties has an anecdote about the poor quality of the bread when he first arrived in Paris. Apparently, a translator used a French to British English dictionary while filling out a Marshall Plan request. Much corn, but no wheat, was sent.

  117. 117.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mnemosyne:

    There’s a difference between “monarchy-worship” and admiration of the woman who happens to embody it right now. I happen to know of a Giant Evil Corporation which basically owns the concept of Royal Princesses.

    Because I think the photograph of the Queen and her great-grandchildren is cute doesn’t mean I want to overturn the Constitution of the United States and burn the Declaration of Independence.

  118. 118.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @PhoenixRising:

    But the hyphen-American movements that eventually reached Black Americans…were in every other ethnicity first.

    Ah, there you go. Someone who knows (or, at least, appears to)

  119. 119.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown): DC Comics used it in the Legion of Superheroes for a while. An entire society of genetically enhanced (wings, interstellar flight, innate tracking abilities) Native Americans settled and colonized another planet that they named Starhaven. One of their members, Dawnstar, joined the Legion in Superboy and the Legion of Superheros (1977).
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawnstar
    comicvine.gamespot.com/dawnstar/4005-3622/
    dc.wikia.com/wiki/Dawnstar

  120. 120.

    Prescott Cactus

    @redshirt: It’s funny how long it takes us to stir the pot and then forget we were once in it. My uncle married an IItalian gal in the late 1950’s in Chicago. Their children, my first cousins have told me about how badly the older aunts and uncles treated and disrespected them and their Mom. They are in their 60’s now and it still left a scar…

    Dad married a German American gal and she didn’t speak with an accent and was fair skinned. . . No problems

  121. 121.

    Emma

    As an undergraduate I took an elective history class called “Ireland’s English Question.” Taught by an Irishman. He cured me of romanticizing history. His favorite quote was from Joyce: This lovely land that always sent / Her writers and artists to banishment / And in a spirit of Irish fun / Betrayed her own leaders one by one.”

    And, in passing, f.ck the Irish catholic church.

  124. 124.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    a) that would be… an AMERICAN giant evil corporation?

    b) Sure you do. Come on, it’s fine to admit it. Come on home. Americans say they hate royalty, I know, but I’ve seen the way you don’t wash your hand for a week after Anne Hathaway touches it. Why is it any better to elevate someone because they are good at acting or singing than because they are symbolically connected to hundreds of years of dynastic power?

    /trollface

  125. 125.

    redshirt

    @Prescott Cactus: I recently learned my grandmother and grandfather on my father’s side were banished by both their families because she was a Catholic and he was a Protestant.

    This divide means nothing to me but just a couple of generations ago, here in America, it was serious enough for freaking banishment.

  126. 126.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Apparently, a translator used a French to British English dictionary while filling out a Marshall Plan request.

    “My hovercraft is full of eels.”

  127. 127.

    Mnemosyne

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    I was just teasing a little bit. I think it’s easy for Americans to look at the British royal family and just see another type of celebrity, but I know schroedinger’s cat has been studying up on the history of India and doesn’t see them as quite as benign as those of us with 200+ years of distance from the empire do.

  128. 128.

    JanieM

    @Prescott Cactus: One of my mom’s tales is that when she told her mother (rural, Baptist, ethnically “old American” as I think of it privately) she was marrying my dad (Catholic, son of immigrants from Italy), her mother cried (which she never did ordinarily) and said, “You wouldn’t be doing this if your father were alive.” My mom thought it was at least as much because of religion as because of ethnicity. But her mother came to respect and like my dad once she got over the initial resistance and got to know him.

  130. 130.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @Adam L Silverman: I don’t know about that. I was too busy figuring out how to crawl in 1977 to see comics as more than an absorbent chew toy.

  131. 131.

    Prescott Cactus

    @CarolDuhart2: Irish abortion law:
    Abortion in Ireland is illegal unless it occurs as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother.

  135. 135.

    Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)

    @Prescott Cactus: and you have to be so sure that you can prove the ‘saving the mother’s life’ part that doctors are quite reluctant to do it… which IIRC lead to the tragedy of someone dying a couple of years ago, which got lots of UK press attention, and solemn promises to clear it all up a bit, which came to naught.

    @Mnemosyne: To be fair, the royals now in the UK are seen as, more or less, a higher order of celebrity.

  138. 138.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Mnemosyne: Lizzie’s cousin Mountbatten presided over the disastrous Partition of India, the British withdrew a year ahead of the earlier schedule. A bloodbath ensued, and we all know what a great success story Pakistan is. She was the monarch then if I recall correctly.

  139. 139.

    redshirt

    @efgoldman: Good observation. I know the term well. I lived in Old Orchard Beach for a year and had a friend named Francois Bouchard who’s parents spoke French at home. I took French that year in the 6th grade.

  140. 140.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’m no big fan of the People Magazine style of Royal celebrity culture, although I confess to having dropped money on certain commemorative issues over the years. In my own case, I lost my heart at age 5, not to generic Disney princesses but to one specific Princess, Elizabeth, when she married her Prince Philip in 1947. Within a few years, that early Royal obsession had turned into a genuine interest in English/British history writ large, which eventually led me into awareness of colonialism, the Raj, the horrors of the British in Ireland, the far-reaching tentacles of the class system, etc. But it also fueled my interest in heraldry and genealogy and stamp collecting :-)

    I don’t for a second delude myself that everyone shares my interest, and I have nothing but respect and admiration for Schrödinger’s Cat (whom I have met IRL and like very much).

    On the other end of the scale, I am both amused and horrified by a FB monarchist friend (American, to his great sorrow) who genuinely would torch the Declaration and Constitution and rewrite history to have the British win the American Revolution. He thinks any King or Queen anywhere is preferable to democracy or republicanism, he prides himself on never voting, and pretty much goes into mourning on Independence Day and Bastille Day. He would (so he says) prefer to be ruled by an autocratic Czar of All the Russias than a President Barack Obama.

  141. 141.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    A bloodbath ensued, and we all know what a great success story Pakistan is. She was the monarch then if I recall correctly.

    Partition was 1947, yes? Elizabeth’s accession to the throne wasn’t until 1952.

  142. 142.

    Mnemosyne

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I double-checked Wikipedia and she became queen in 1952, so I think her father was still monarch during the partition.

    BTW, I attended a panel about historical fiction at the Festival of Books a couple of weeks ago and got a book of short stories by a Bangladeshi writer named K. Anis Ahmed called “Good Night, Mr. Kissinger & Other Stories.” The stories mostly take place in Dhaka from partition to the 1990s, but the title story is about a Bangladeshi refugee waiter who becomes Kissinger’s favored server at a restaurant in NYC in the 1970s. It’s on my “to read” stack, but I need to get some more research for my novel done before I can read other stuff.

  146. 146.

    elftx

    On the1920 census my great aunt listed the country of origin for her parents as Irish Free State.
    That was the only time I saw that on the census I could find for my paternal great grandparents.

  148. 148.

    Steeplejack

    @PhoenixRising:

    But the hyphen-American movements that eventually reached Black Americans . . . were in every other ethnicity first.

    Yes, they were not a reaction to the emergence of “African-American.” My take is more literary than academic, but it seems clear that in the early stages of arrival/immigration the new groups were called by where they came from—“the Swedes,” “the Irish, “the Italians,” etc. Then, as they became more integrated, more “American,” the prefix got added as a sort of cultural marker or identifier pointing back to that heritage, for both good and ill.

    All that applies to “whites” (acknowledging that it took a while for some ethnic groups to magically become white). The case is a little different for African-Americans. First, they were never going to become white, and, second, “Africa” is not a discrete nation-state with a common heritage, although in some ways it is a useful identifier.

    And I’ll note that the term “African-American” is not something that just popped up in the 1980s, as some seem to think. It is instructive to look at the similar but older term “Afro-American,” which was used a lot in the 1960s. In fact, while doing a little checking while writing this, I came across an excellent article by Lerone Bennett Jr., senior editor of Ebony magazine, from November 1967: “What’s in a Name? Negro vs. Afro-American vs. Black.” I recommend it to readers of this thread.

    Bennett notes the trend of new immigrants to identify by point of origin:

    The reaction of the first Americans of African descent to the word “Negro” has never been adequately studied. But it appears from an examination of surviving documents that literate black people resisted the word with cunning and tenacity. The first black immigrants seem to have preferred the word “African.” In surviving documents, they referred to themselves as “blacks,” “blackes,” and “Africans.” And the first institutions organized by Americans of African descent were designated “African,” viz., “the Free African Society,” “the African Methodist Episcopal Church,” “the African Baptist Church.” The preamble of the Free African Society, which was founded in Philadelphia in 1787, began: “We, the Free Africans and their descendants of the City of Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania or elsewhere . . .”

    He then goes into an excellent etymology of “colored,” “Negro,” “black” and “African-American” and how their meaning and importance changes through time.

    Finally, from a letter to the editor published in Ebony in January 1968:

    A random survey of Afro-American personnel on this base, taken by myself and another airman, indicates that the vast majority favors the terms Afro-American and African-American. The reason given by this majority is that these terms contain certain undertones of heritage with which the young black man of today is quite eager to identify.

    Thank you for this opportunity to voice our opinion.

    —A3c Edward D. Hitchens
    Castle AFB, California

  149. 149.

    Matt McIrvin

    @SiubhanDuinne: One of those Mencius Moldbug-type neo-reactionaries, perhaps?

    James Nicoll, one of the last remaining prominent LiveJournalers, is a proud Canadian monarchist, but his reasoning is that Canada’s situation is the ideal one for a democracy: the head of state serving the dangerous symbolic function of personifying national identity is not only essentially powerless, but safely quarantined on the other side of an ocean.

  150. 150.

    satby

    @redshirt: no.
    In fact, in the formerly Irish neighborhood where I grew up in Chicago, we weren’t hyphenated anything. We were Irish, even though most of us were 3rd or 4th generation US citizens. For the kids of the other little ethnic enclaves it was the same. The ethnic identity was strong, and so was a lot of the segregation. When the Irish had first started moving into that neighborhood, the KKK burned a cross in front of the house the nuns from the new parish were living. When I got older I was surprised to find out most Americans didn’t seem to have a particularly strong ethnic identity. I suspect old cities with ethnic neighborhoods are similar.

  152. 152.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    @Iowa Old Lady: In response I’d link to Yeats’ quote as an Irish Free State senator about the Protestant minority in southern Ireland.

  154. 154.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Matt McIrvin:

    “Mencius Moldbug” was new to me (had to Google), but I think “neo-reactionary” would fit my friend. Or simply “reactionary,” a term he uses, completely unselfconsciously, to describe himself.

  155. 155.

    satby

    One thing that surprised me about going back to Ireland a few years ago: before the potato famine started, the population of Ireland was approximately 8 million people (church records confirm that). At the end of the famine and migration, the population had dropped by 1/2, to four million. It has never recovered, in 2012 when I was there it was a bit over 4 1/2 million.
    The Irish call the small boats that carried the famine refugees famine ships. On the other side where the survivors landed and raised their children and grandchildren (like me) we knew them as the coffin ships, because so many died on the voyage.

  156. 156.

    Gretchen

    @redshirt: @redshirt: I agree that the Nation-American is a newer usage. Like JanieM, while my family was Irish-American, they just called themselves Irish. The American was understood, and since Dad was a WWII vet, questioning the American part would get you in trouble. But the Irish was very important. And, while my parents were very proud of being Irish, they were suspicious of newer immigrants who clung to their identities, especially their language. Since the Irish language was wiped out, for the most part, long before they arrived on these shores, they arrived already speaking English.

  157. 157.

    Gretchen

    @satby: That’s especially amazing considering the short time span involved, and the fact that the famine was much worse in the west than in Dublin. So in some areas of the West, whole families and villages were wiped out.

  158. 158.

    Gretchen

    Here’s something I’ve been wondering about. My family, on both sides, are famine survivors. Both sides survived the Great Famine of 1848-1850, and smaller crop failures in later years, and finally left for American in the 1870’s.
    One of my daughters was having terrible stomach problems, and had an endoscopy. The doctor came out afterward and said “I know her dad is Italian, but what is your family background?” I said my family was Irish. He said “Ooohhh!” I said “What does Ooohhh mean?” He said that she has celiac disease, and that it’s much more common among people of Irish descent, especially from Western Ireland, which is where my family was from. So my family survived a disaster where half the people left, starved to death, or died of disease, and lived on for another 25 years in that place. And they turn out to have a digestive difference, an inability to digest gluten, from people whose ancestors didn’t survive those conditions. I wonder if there isn’t some relation.

  160. 160.

    Mnemosyne

    @Gretchen:

    Yes, celiac is more common among people with Irish (or other Celtic, like Scottish) ancestry. I have some issues with IBS, but luckily I seem to have gotten Italian or German intestines, because there’s no sign of celiac.

  161. 161.

    sherparick

    “…In regards the Irish Troubles, women played a tremendous role in transmitting the ideals of Irish republicanism and the idea and cause of a free and autonomous Ireland. This often took the form of inculcating these beliefs in their children and grandchildren and provides an excellent example of social learning. I’m looking forward to seeing how tonight’s documentary deals with these and other issues relating to the desire for autonomy, self determination, and the decision making process that leads a significant portion of a movement to chose to rebel, rather than take some other form of political or social action.” No better example of this then Padriac Pearse (P.H. Pearse on the proclamation) himself, whose father was an Englishman. A great book, written a generation ago when the “the Troubles” were heating up again, is Robert Kee’s 3 volume history of the invention of Irish nationalism, “The Green Flag.” kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/robert-kee-2/the-green-flag/ It is not just a great study of the particulars of Irish events and the creation of a “nationality,” but also revealing about general abstract of nationalism and mass movements.

  162. 162.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Omnes Omnibus: True, but the monarch has been the embodiment of their nation for a long time. Wasn’t for God, King/Queen and country the English/British rallying cry? She is a symbol, and symbols matter. The royals may not have had a hand in running the day to day affairs of the Empire but they did benefit from it immensely, in terms of both material wealth and fame. Millions were starved/shot/tortured in her name. The interest in British royalty today rests squarely on their past laurels.
    So forgive me if I don’t go squeeing over the soft focus portrait of the Queen.

    Millions were starved/shot/tortured in her name and the name of her ancestors.

  163. 163.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Omnes Omnibus: True, but the monarch has been the embodiment of their nation for a long time. Wasn’t for God, King/Queen and country the English/British rallying cry? She is a symbol, and symbols matter. The royals may not have had a hand in running the day to day affairs of the Empire but they did benefit from it immensely, in terms of both material wealth and fame. Millions were starved/shot/tortured in her name. The interest in British royalty today rests squarely on their past laurels.
    So forgive me if I don’t go squeeing over the soft focus portrait of the Queen.

  164. 164.

    Miss Bianca

    Gosh, what a fabulous thread. Thanks, Adam! So sorry I missed it in real time, but loved all the comments. Yesterday was my mother’s birthday…she would have been…let’s see…94 years old. Somehow I’ve never made the connection that day also being the day of the Easter Rising!

  165. 165.

    Feathers

    I’m of 100% Irish ancestry, but everyone emigrated in the 19th century, I was born in the 60s. My Dad took a job in Ireland, so we lived there for a while in the early 70s. One of the things I was always told there was that I was not Irish, I was “Irish-American,” or really just “American” in the eyes of the actual Irish people born and raised in Ireland.

    My sense is that is where the distinction came from. The immigrants saw themselves as Irish/Swedish/Italian, living in America, usually in enclaves. But with the passing of a generation or two, they were no longer truly Irish, et al., because the culture of the homeland had moved on without them. So they became Irish-American to distinguish themselves from the cousins back in Ireland. My grandfather had kept in touch with his cousins back in Ireland, so we spent time with them. None of the cousins on either my father or mother’s side of the family had running water in their houses. They had pumps in the yard and outhouses. I remember being very thankful my great-great grandfather(s) had gotten on that boat.

    I’m old enough to remember when African-American swept in to replace Black. It was definitely using a structure that was already around. I recall it being around the time of Jesse Jackson’s presidential runs and the forming of the Rainbow Coalition, and serving to put African-American among the various ethnicities of America, and not simply racially different. There were definitely Irish-American and Italian-American t-shirts and such before then. One of the issues was, “why would you call yourself African-American when only assholes insist on calling themselves Irish or Italian-American as something to be proud of?”

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