Jane Sanders says Trump would be better than Hillary on trade, says current Cabinet is "full of lobbyists." https://t.co/pTEG8C4gRk
— Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) May 3, 2016
I grew up in a Bronx Irish-Catholic enclave in the same time period and not far from where Jane O’Meara Sanders was growing up in a Queens version. If you want to know why Mrs. Sanders is being insanely intransigent about her husband’s chances in the Democratic primary, it’s for the same reason a farm-bred border collie will not be deterred from herding cats, neighborhood children or passing cars when there are no sheep available: Her genetic bias towards muckerdom, nurtured by the demented Celtic romance with martyrdom, compels her to keep resisting long after a “sensible” person would realize it was time to throw down weapons and bargain for terms. And if you think I’m exaggerating, let me remind you — she won’t even be 2016’s most ridiculous standard-bearer for this toxic trope, not while Catherine Grieg is still “protecting” Whitey Bulger’s reputation, out of “loyalty”.
The only person who could talk her down off the barricades at this point is her husband, and if his other advisors (paging Tad Devine) have any sense they’re working on getting him to do so before she burns down the campaign around their heads. Unfortunately — speaking of natural tendencies exacerbated by recent turmoil — I’m not sure Bernie hasn’t gotten so drunk on his dizzier supporters’ koolaid that he isn’t enjoying her Gaelic theatrics as the proper ending to his surprise hit play. And gods know Jeff ‘Comic Book Guy’ Weaver has no incentive to cut off his own media access if he thinks he can milk the rubes for one more reboot before returning to political obscurity…
Just blocked 2 alleged Hillary supporters who followed me for calling Jane Sanders the c word. Which EVERY GOPer is calling Hillary.
DON'T!— Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) May 4, 2016
If Bill Clinton was saying the kind of poisonous shit Jane Sanders is saying, we would flip a lid. Oh wait, we did. STFU Jane.
— John Cole (@Johngcole) May 4, 2016
starscream
Why won’t they release their tax returns? They’ll never live in the White House so I guess it doesn’t matter, but I am so curious at this point. What is St. Bernard hiding?
Damien
They keep saying shit like “Bernie has brought people in,” and “Bernie is turning out voters,” then they lose. Chuck Pierce can’t even rationally discuss the Sanders campaign anymore, saying the process disfavors an insurgent campaign like Sanders’, which I honestly find astounding, considering that Obama won under pretty similar rules and could hardly be called an insider.
But hey, you know what? I look forward to seeing all those new voters Bernie’s turned out getting into the nitty-gritty hard work of actually taking over the party local, state and federal. Because that will definitely happen, right?
Mike J
@starscream:
It’s hard to publicly rail against millionaires and billionaires when you’re pulling in 400k/yr. If he’s not a millionaire, he needs to retake that 7th grade class where they teach you to balance a checkbook.
Anne Laurie
@Damien:
Charlie Pierce, much as I love him, is another up-the-resistance Irish-American romantic who’s never met an underdog for whom he couldn’t find some sympathy. He is not, goddess bless, a Hillary-hater; once Sanders stop playing to the cheap seats and accepts he won’t be the Democratic nominee, Mr. Pierce will be fighting hard for President HRC like a sensible man again.
Amir Khalid
Hillary lost Indiana by just five percentage points after not campaigning there at all, as I understand, while Bernie devoted a lot of time and resources to winning the state. Her people may have decided on letting him burn through his remaining funds and bask in his insufficient wins, while devoting her resources to the biggest, most diverse and most delegate-rich remaining states.
Is Jane Sanders aware that she’s directly contradicting Bernie’s message about Hillary: that on her worst day, President Hillary would be a thousand times better than any Republican President? Has Jane gone off the reservation, or is this where Bernie’s campaign is now?
Susan K of the tech support
“demented celtic romance” “gaelic theatrics”
How DARE you engage in identity politics with She Who Must Be Allowed To Never Finish Their Tax Returns?! Indulging in this kind of crassness is a distraction. Your attention must be focused on the real issues at hand — how the system is rigged, the millionaires and billionaires must be made to pay their fair share, and the banks must be broken up.
How DARE you question ANYthing about the wife of Senator Sanders who will save us all?
*(yes. it’s true. I looked up the lyrics to that song and there was mention of little birds. It’s a sign)
Jerzy Russian
Mrs. Sanders provides us with an other example of someone who needs shutting-the-fuck-up lessons. She needs the lessons worse than the golfer Phil Mickelson did when he complained about paying taxes on a $70 million income.
Davebo
@Amir Khalid: The story has been that the Sanders campaign never dreamed they’d raise the amount of money they did and therefore didn’t cap the commissions on consultants but that is not really true. They (and I mean they, his top consultants) could have done so but it turns out they were the ones being paid. Bernie’s campaign is making millionaires 27 bucks at a time.
Amir Khalid
Now here’s an interesting idea for campaign goodies.
Mike J
@Amir Khalid: Since Ferdinand and Imelda are gone, the Philippines may now elect their son, BongBong.
Aqualad08
@Amir Khalid:
I don’t think the Sanders campaign has had any idea where it’s been since Michigan. The lack of campaign discipline is frightening on many levels. They’e high on their own supply and Tad Devine, who should be the one adult in the room, is too weak-kneed to tell them they’re hurting the party. It was bound to happen since they have no real loyalty to it and no real future in it (between Bernie’s age and Jeff Weaver’s attempts to play three card monty with just one card, this is kind of it for them).
Warren Terra
@Aqualad08:
This is pretty much my impression. Bernie has pretty much spent the last month frittering away my affection for him; the people around him even more so.
Warren Terra
@Amir Khalid: I’ve seen that done in the US before, also at 7-11; apparently they’ve done it in the last four Presidential elections.
Soylent Green
Ain’t no thang. It’s the fourth quarter of the last game of the season and they are way behind, but giving the fans their money’s worth. This game will end soon, and be forgotten. Playoffs next!
Villago Delenda Est
@Warren Terra: Aye, here too. Same thing.
I’m checking the box for Hillary now. Done with Bernie.
akryan
Well, TBF, you can’t expect a guy to drop out of a race when he’s still winning states. He’ll probably win some more before it’s all said and done. I’m not worried about the party uniting. Most of the PUMAs came on board 8 years ago. As long as Bernie doesn’t do something crazy like run as a third party candidate then I think he’ll bring back his flock. You also have to remember that neither Warren nor Obama have started campaigning yet. She’ll also have a good VP candidate I’m sure. Once we get into the general they’ll get out on the campaign trail and will make up for any lack of charisma that Clinton has.
cmorenc
For all their vast dissimilarities, one thing Bernie (and his wife Jane), Cruz, and Kasich have in common is that they become intoxicated with the notion that they have a realistic shot at the White House, that they should be *this* close to winning the nomination, but for some establishment folks over here unfairly, even stupidly blocking their way because they have the best shot at winning the general election over whomever the evil other party’s nominee might be. They get intoxicated pursuing MY PRECIOUS! and become blind to how their pursuit of their own prospects for success may diverge from the well-being of the movements and causes they claim to support. It’s hard to pursue the power of the Presidency without becoming madly drunk from it.
Warren Terra
@akryan: I’m not asking him to drop out. I’m asking his wife to stop recording ads for Donald Trump. This is at least the second time in a week.
RK
If Trump isn’t better than Clinton on trade, what’s the problem? And Jane Sanders holds no sway over anyone as far as i can tell.
The Old fart
I like Hillary. I voted today for Bernie, though. I like Bernie more. He is the only candidate proposing expansion of Social Security, which constitutes 100% of my income. I realize most of you here haven’t paid into it like the 50 years I have ( or experienced the benefits of Medicare), and maybe just think it’s welfare for the olds, but Bernie gets that it’s not.. But let me give you a clue. You are all headed there. Get a grip. You will all regret not getting the Bernie agenda one day. But electing a women is so cool. I get that. Just like electing JWB was so cool. Family regimes are so cool. So in 20 years or so, when I am dead and you are wondering if there was a time you could have changed your luck, you can remember it could have happened.
RK
@Susan K of the tech support:
The system isn’t? Seems like a vitally important issue if it is. But it isn’t, is it?
Susan K of the tech support
@RK: yep. system is rigged: She hasn’t released their tax returns, and they asked to postpone the candidate/senator financial disclosure statement until after the California primary.
Keith G
@The Old fart: It seems there are many in life situations similar to yours who
that feel the way you do. It certainly would be nice if the Democratic Party would realize what they have done to make their relationship with this population so seemingly disconnected. The Party leadership needs to step up and address this and related issues.
Applejinx
@akryan: Fuck me, maybe they WILL make him the Veep. At that point nobody dares do anything to Clinton for fear Sanders would get in, yet Veep can be a really powerless, symbolic position o_O
Still trying to figure out why Hillary GAVE him the state of Indiana, because she bloody well did, and there has to be a reason she’s okay with him racking up more ‘wins’ and support. This was a choice, she could easily have run against him or appeared in the state or spent money. It would be so the normal thing to do, and there has to be some kind of kabuki afoot, which means the Clinton people want him not to drop out or appear powerless.
Rachel said it: she didn’t run in Indiana, or spend there, or even set foot there.
Yellowdog
@Amir Khalid: I am more than half convinced that Jane Sanders is the brains behind all the dead- end toxic shit that is coming out of the campaign. It’s not that they can’t control her; SHE is the one who is in control.
amk
@Applejinx:
Because IN is a write-off in GE for dems anyway?
Obama was the first since 1960 (?) to win it in 2008 by something like 1% and it went to back to being crazy in 2012. Going by the turnout yesterday, it sure ain’t dem bastion.
Cermet
Oh, please, John! First, ex-Pres Clinton is a battle sharp, but very beaten down war horse who had both better be more savvy than Ms. Sanders and far, far more careful not to step on his own dick than most pol wife’s …I mean significant others … . Also, Ms. Sanders is getting her first real experience on the national stage and is bound to step on her own dic …wait, doesn’t translate there. Sexist phases are really stupid (i.e. the person saying them) for a very good reason. Their just sexist and meant to exclude. Damn, just stepped on my own …uh, what would be a better phase here? Oh, just being a sexist pig.
AS such, best to be tolerate of people who have less experience and cut them some slack. Times they be a-changing and in this case, for the better. The world, if it is to avoid a WW III (thanks to AGW that isn’t over-the-top as I’d once consider that phrase) we here will need a new out-look and that means the god damn fucking neo-con outlook has to go – looking at you Hillary! – and we need to start acting like a country that is tolerate and caring of the down trodden; not the hyper mass murdering 880 lbs gorilla that thinks remote killing is a game to make more money. Wow, ranting in the morning is FUN!
Applejinx
@amk: Yeah, but Clinton has a choice between running TO the Left faction that’s currently painting her as a psycho Wall Street warmonger shill, and running away from it to try and capture fleeing Republicans (which I’m not thrilled about, but we’d better get used to the idea that the Dem Big Tent is expanding from both sides).
Is that the reason? Is she that confident that traditional Republicans will find refuge with her, that she’s down with letting the radicals get symbolic victories? I guess one thing about it is that all of a sudden, the ‘solidly Republican’ state that’s a write-off for Dems is now publically displayed as a Sanders state, that and Trump (who is ‘Not A Real Conservative’). Maybe it’s in play in the GE after all, and giving it to Sanders in the primary is part of that calculation.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
When the postmortems of the 2016 primaries are written, I wonder which candidate the historians will say did the most lasting, fatal damage to their own political careers by their conduct during this primary? Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders?
Cruz appears mortally wounded, but Bernie and Jane have now drawn enough attention to draw a potential democratic senate opponent, or, failing that, some money thrown at any Vermont challenger should there be a safe Senate D majority, and provided that the challenger isn’t odious.
raven
@Cermet: Go back to the night shift.
Applejinx
@Cermet:
One thing about it, we might end up with both GE candidates competing to see who can crap all over the Bush neocon legacy worse.
That would be fun to watch :) Trump ain’t gonna suddenly embrace the Republican establishment. They’re dead.
Applejinx
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Dream on. I can only think of one scenario where someone else takes Bernie’s Senate seat in Vermont.
Veep.
He can polish Biden’s Trans-Am, and look pure for the cameras.
If Bernie is still capable of holding a Senate seat, fuck you: I’m from Vermont and you ain’t taking him away from us. That’s the most politically stupid idea I’ve ever heard. Hey guys, let’s piss off the fractured left wing even worse by conspiring to overthrow his home state, just like if we were the CIA and Vermont was some country full of brown people! It’ll be fun and what could possibly go wrong?
Seriously, think again. If that was the Democrats, we’d be better off with Trump. But it is NOT the Democrats, it’s just you being a bowtie-wearing crazy person wanting to overthrow people you’ve never met, and you need to dial it down a few notches. ‘Odious’, indeed.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Applejinx: She’s pivoted to the general, so I wouldn’t expect to see much of her even here in CA.
Cermet
@raven: Sorry, current mornings are the rule.
amk
@Applejinx:
really? your idol got half of a repugnant rethug’s votes and now it’s a sanders state?
and what if moderate rethugs did vote for her? isn’t that what your ilk were clamoring after with all those whines about closed primaries?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Applejinx: Bow ties can be quit fun to wear, and Botsplainer’s right about clip-ons.
raven
@Cermet: Dang! Rave on, it’s a crazy feelin!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IUV-QxwlRM
Applejinx
@BillinGlendaleCA: We’ll see. Again, that’s a choice. I cannot imagine allowing things to get to such a stage unless she’s planning something. To my mind the most obvious safe path would be running against Sanders, getting some more wins and allowing him and his movement to be marginalized by the Village with lots of ‘this is where Bernie’s campaign became a footnote to history’.
If she’s not doing this when it would be fairly easy to do, she doesn’t WANT the Bernie campaign to be a footnote, she just wants to win. I approve of Hillary already fighting in the general: I’ve said I want that to happen, anybody who doesn’t like how hard she pushed against Bernie should consider what it’d be like with her playing softball against Trump. Judging from what it was like working for Bernie and running against Hillary, Trump is fucked and has no idea what he’s in for. There’ll be no quarter given.
But right now, in the primary? She’s GIVING the rest of the primary to Bernie. That can’t be part of a calculation to squish him like a bug and pretend his voters don’t exist. Something is up, and though Rachel Maddow called it, I’m still astonished to see it. She let Bernie win Indiana!
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Applejinx:
C’mon, besides running his fucking mouth on absurdities with that noxious accent he’s never bothered to lose, aside from putting his wife in a position to truck off Vermont’s nuclear waste to poor Latino communities, what has he done to benefit the entirety of Vermont? It’s not like he’s a stellar pork raiser, and he doesn’t have his name on stacks of important bills. His stint as mayor of what is actually a pretty insignificant village was long ago, and all he’s seemed to do has been to mooch while running his fucking gravelly mouth about “corporatism, blah fucking blah blah blah”.
Cermet
@raven: VERY good post there Raven. Good choice of singer, too! Playing the song in the background. Never heard it before so thanks for that link!
I need more coffee, I guess.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
which cabinet secretary is a lobbyist?
Kook!
Conspiracy theorist!
Wacko!
Left wing nut job!
EZSmirkzz
Touchy today, aren’t we?
raven
@Cermet: Wow, you never heard Rave On, you must be a pupster! How bout the much covered Fade Away?
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Turnout has been down, across the board, even among young voters.
Crackpot!
Baud
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
All of them, Katie.
Applejinx
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: I am guardedly encouraged to see you so fiercely slavering for Bernie’s blood, and Koch freaking out. Smells like ‘string of primary victories leading to major symbolic role’ (that happens to involve washing Biden’s Trans-Am, and no policy wonkery at all) ;)
I’m sure Hillary will have a bright shiny new DNC-approved Democratic senator to take Bernie’s place as he goes, like Mr. Smith, to Washington and his glorious and powerful future as Second In Command Of The Free World…
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@The Old fart:
That sounds like a great idea. I wish Sanders was in the Senate so he could pass the bill.
Oh wait, he is in the Senate and has never passed anything in 26 years.
Impotent!
Inept!
msdc
Oh, nicely done. The Sanders campaign is starting to show all the foresight, good judgment, and sound financial footing of DC Comics.
maryQ
I’ve been reluctant to think about giving up my hard-won lovely beautiful amazing senior senator for a Charlie Baker-picked republican, but if that is what it takes to erase the stain of Jane Sanders, bring on VP Warren.
Applejinx
@maryQ: She won’t do it, but that would also win over the Sanders wing. I’m beginning to think the plan is for you guys to keep Warren, but Bernie gets rendered powerless as the symbolic Veep and a centrist DNC Dem takes over Vermont, sort of cutting off the head of the radical progressive movement without significant change in the Democratic political system. It’s all kabuki.
Not that this prevents a leftward swing for the Dems, but it’d absolutely defuse any separatist tendencies and is the only way to get Bernie out of the Senate short of whacking him. It’s consistent with allowing him late-primary victories like this, which is clearly what Clinton is doing.
satby
Yeah, time for Bernie to take Jane and go back to Vermont. They can keep him if they want. The rest of us are so over him.
Anyone else hear him and think of this guy?
satby
Bernie is not going to be offered the VP position.
Baud
@satby: Agree. It won’t be him or Warren.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I’m thinking it’ll be Perez.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
I prefer him to Castro.
satby
@Baud: @BillinGlendaleCA: I’m hoping it will be Perez.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: And if either was asked, neither would take it.
maryQ
@satby: but what is she doing? Not one ad in Indiana? Not one visit? Spending the day in Ohio? Is she up to something? Or just ignoring?
Baud
@maryQ: Saving money for the general election.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Also agree.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Baud: I’m leaning to Deval Patrick or Admiral McRaven.
We need a well spoken attack dog with gravitas.
I wish there was a latino who fit that description, but while Castro is smart, he doesn’t seem like the attack dog type, and while Perez would be a good attack dog, I’m not convinced he has gravitas.
satby
@maryQ: Indiana isn’t really a swing state, and she got 5 less delegates (43-37) than Sanders without wasting money there. Ohio is a true swing state.
Understanding the process is why she’s ahead. Oh, and not being a shouty old fraud also helps.
Baud
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
So Bill it is then.
Micheline
It’s been very obvious that Sanders & Co. have been trying to sabotage HRC’s chances in winning the general. Jane’s comments are similiar to Susan Sarandon’s comments. I would also add that the constant harping on the speech transcripts is another example of sabatoging HRC. At the beginning of the campaign, it was fine for Bernie to talk about the speech transcripts, but now at this stage he looks like a sore loser.
BillinGlendaleCA
How about a nice doggie pic?
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx: I wish I had your faith in Team Clinton’s ruthless machinations. I’m going with Occam’s Razor here: Clinton didn’t compete in Indiana because she’s got the nomination sewn up without it. She’s going to focus on California and fundraising from here on out. Sanders will pick up a few more states late in the game just as Clinton herself did in 2008 (Indiana, Kentucky and West Virginia among them, IIRC). Clinton knows it won’t matter because she’s been there.
rk
I think Bernie is planning to run as an independent. It would be ironic that everyone spent all these months talking about a contested convention for republicans and Trump running as an independent, but it happens to the democrats. I’m getting a bad feeling about this whole Sanders thing.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: No way, I’ve got too many skeletons in my cave.
satby
@BillinGlendaleCA: Nice? Or demon dog refugee from a Carly ad?
MomSense
The comparisons to the tough 2008 primary battle end when the losing candidate decides to attack the Demicratic party and its winning candidate as corrupt every day.
He is playing with fire and apparently doesn’t care that he is helping the party of der Trump. This is not the year for this dangerous game.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA: You dog is hot!
Betty Cracker
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Hey, Perez has plenty of gravitas! Plus a wicked sense of humor and labor cred.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Good. We need someone who can out-Trump Trump.
Cermet
@raven: Yes, heard that one. Still, haven’t for a long time. Again, thanks for the links … .
Micheline
As for VP, I would like to see Perez or Castro. Deval Patrick would be an excellent choice but I believe he’s now with Bain Capital.
satby
@MomSense: yep. Which is why people are really beginning to hate the old jerk.
Edited to fix typo
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: All dogs are hot.
@satby: Thermal image of my cocker spaniel. She’s not demonic; the YorkiPom, on the other hand…
MomSense
@Applejinx:
Bernie is not going to be Veep. He doesn’t bring the Democrats anything. Once the Republicans start in on him he will be toxic everywhere but Vermont.
Schlemazel Khan
@Amir Khalid:
Cute idea . . . I guess the obesity epidemic has not yet been recognized on the islands or one of the lower drawing candidates would be claiming the top dog was killing their voters through sugar.
Betty Cracker
Damn, we are having a fierce storm here this morning! Lightning keeps knocking out my lights and wifi. The chickens are not going to be happy when they file out of the hen house…
rikyrah
Good Morning ?, Everyone ?
No new Morning Open Thread, eh ?
Applejinx
@MomSense: What Republicans? Cruz? :D
It’s going to be interesting to see what Clinton does to lay claim to the arguably-half-of-the-Democratic-party that is the Bernie faction. If it doesn’t seem like half, it will once she GIVES him some more primary ‘victories’. They know how that looks. Whatever they (the Clinton people) are up to, it’s not threatened by Bernie coming into the convention owning half of it and ready to go off the reservation. Therefore, since they’re not idiots this cycle, they’re up to something.
I’m just saying, Bernie Veep is a powerless position while Hillary lives, it’s ‘coup insurance’ and a threat to anyone who won’t deal with Hillary the way she wants, it removes Bernie from Vermont and leaves the state open for a DNC-controlled Senator: in many ways it’s masterful realpolitik. Especially the ‘deal with me, or deal with a Socialist’ brinksmanship. You might even say it’s the sort of thing a Kissinger would think up.
rikyrah
Where are the tax returns, Jane?
Schlemazel Khan
@The Old fart:
I have paid in for 48 years and not started drawing out yet but you are terribly wrong with the aspersion you cast against the people here. Nobody (that matters – perhaps a troll or two) has ever suggested that Social Security is any form of welfare. Additionally, there is a universal agreement that it must be protected and expanded. You are barking at the wrong ghost.
satby
@Applejinx: they’re not up to something, they’re ignoring him. Because he’s becoming irrelevant. And he’s doing that to himself.
MomSense
@Applejinx:
Which Reoublicans? If Sanders is the VP nominee, all of them Katie.
Kropadope
@Amir Khalid:
What is true in aggregate is not necessarily true on an issue-by-issue basis. It does seem that Sanders is closer to Trump on trade, which makes sense, I never agreed with either of them on trade. Too bad Hillary had to cop out on TPP, but at least she can always be counted on to stand up for what’s easy.
@Applejinx:
Which is why he will never take the job if he knows what’s good for him.
JPL
@rikyrah: Jane won’t release the tax returns until Hillary releases the transcripts…
I still think that Bernie has some deductions, he doesn’t want anyone to see. Maybe he supports the NRA.
MomSense
@rikyrah:
They cannot release the tax returns as I’m pretty damned sure they will show that the Sanders are millyanaires judging from what we do know about their real estate holdings and investments/retirement accounts.
maryQ
Also, can we declare GOP schadenfreude officially over? Looks like there will be one contested convention, folks.
amk
@Applejinx:
you mean a quarter of the indies? your idol got walloped where actual dems voted.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
She’d make a great running mate. Problem is it would take her away from Senate.
Baud
@Applejinx:
It was Goldwater’s idea. Recruit a young woman to infiltrate the Democratic Party and destroy it from the inside by forcing white progressives to walk away through a clever scheme of promoting liberal ideas that “just don’t go far enough.”
And Sanders fell into the trap.
debbie
I hate using the phrase, but John Kasich needs a dope slap.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Wait! Did Goldwater also place the ads in the Honolulu papers about the birth of Barack Obama Jr.? Crafty guy, to think his son was once my Congresscritter.
BillinGlendaleCA
@debbie: That seems like a waste of perfectly good MaryJane.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Of course. Some charismatic black dude had to defeat Hillary in 2008. That was the lynchpin of the whole plan.
Vanya
If you are a progressive then of course Trump is better than Hillary on trade issues since Hillary is essentially what we used to call “a moderate Republican” on those issues. Trump’s populism is closer to what most Democrats actually want. Trump is also better than Hillary on foreign policy, on paper. Hillary will be a better President than Trump simply because she is smart, very competent and not insane, but there are legitimate reasons why a lot of Democrats find her economic policies horrible.
Kropadope
@MomSense:
Sanders and his supporters aren’t against the existence of millionaires, but rather their using their assets to buy a politically privileged position that shields them from competition and paying for the government resources they use. But thanks for making the Republicans’ arguments for them.
JMG
Let it go. People who’re losing should be allowed to misinterpret their forlorn hope wins. It’s what Sen. and Ms. Sanders say in August that counts. God knows what that’ll be, of course.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
Digya guys see the cover of today’s NY Daily News – funny as fuck (photo)
Baud
@Vanya:
Not true, if polls are to be believed.
Which paper is that?
Chyron HR
Here you go again, taking statements of an “unverifiable Twitter rando” like Jane Sanders and unfairly trying to tar the Sanders campaign with them. Have you no shame?
Chyron HR
@Baud:
Der Sturmer.
amk
@Baud: the toilet kind?
Baud
@amk: Ah, the New York Times.
amk
@Baud: nah, that’s a fish wrap. not useful anywhere else.
Freemark
@Vanya: I had almost the same thing written out but chose not to publish as I am about to go to bed and couldn’t respond to the responses. I voted for Bernie because his positions and ethics are better than Hillary’s but I think Hillary has better leadership skills and temperament. It is her lack of ethics. policies, and complete lack of core convictions that I don’t like.
Kropadope
@Baud:
The “Nuke Iran and Constantly Antagonize the World Until We Are Nuked by France Times”
Lurking Canadian
@rikyrah: Thank you for your warm greetings each morning. You bring a smile to my face each day.
Baud
@Kropadope:
I hear they have a good sports section.
OzarkHillbilly
@Vanya:
As much as Hillary’s well documented hawkishness makes nearly all of us a little uncomfortable, I’m still not sure how you can say this, considering the fact that the paper Trump’s foreign policy is written on is toilet paper.
OzarkHillbilly
@Freemark:
10,000 unemployed comedians and here you are giving it away for free.
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
You’re right. Trump’s been making it up as he goes along. I can’t wait to hear what he comes up with now that he has to present himself as a serious thinker.
Kropadope
@Baud: That’s always how they draw you in.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
ZigZag.
PsiFighter37
Jane Sanders can go pound sand. She’s even more annoying than her holier-than-thou husband.
DCF
@Anne Laurie:
I had hoped that a BJ ‘front pager’ would at least show a measure of restraint (and respect) to a primary candidate’s wife, if not the candidate himself…on reflection, however, I realize this is more than should be expected here….
Jane ‘O’Meara’ Sanders has brought many positive attributes to this Democratic primary – prominent among them both articulate restraint and unpretentious class.
Pick up on it….
D58826
Trump and the same old bernie/hillary arguments. And only on first cup of coffee. I think I will do something fun and productive – have root canal and then stop by my local IRS office and ask that they audit my tax returns for the past 10 years even though I misplaced all of my receipts.
Kay
Jane Sanders gets on my nerves and that was a horrible presentation she put on there but she didn’t “say” Trump would be better than Clinton on trade and I can’t find “full of lobbyists” (which is presented as a direct quote) anywhere in that interview.
Kropadope
@DCF: Some of the smugger, more condescending Hillary supporters are every bit as bad as the Bernie Bros they deride. The campaign has been going on for a year, though, and if they haven’t been clued in yet, they likely never will be. Just ignore them, they’re probably just dejected Jeb Bush supporters trying to stir up trouble. Why do you think they chose Balloon Juice to troll? There aren’t enough Jeb supporters to make a splash on a more popular site.
Kay
@DCF:
Jane Sanders is introduced as a “senior adviser” in that interview. When she takes that title she’s no longer speaking as the candidate’s wife.
Walker
This is the same Jane Sanders that made a corrupt land deal with the Catholic Church that has nearly destroyed Burlington College. She has no business preaching on this at all.
Brinks Truck Driver
Re: Trump on trade
I mean, starting trade wars because another country’s media made fun of his baby hands is a kind of protectionism…
Kay
@D58826:
The clip isn’t as bad as the “award winning journo” who Tweeted it makes it out to be. It’s not good, but this Tweet plays pretty fast and loose with the words that were actually spoken.
AnonPhenom
@akryan:
Yes. This.
Entirely too many here caught up in the moment and losing sight of the bigger picture. The Rights’ coalition is imploding. What long term opportunities does that present? Not just short term for the immediate elections, but for long term systemic electoral change. Sanders & crew will likely seek a public option in election financing as the price for support. But I also believe that championing a Ranked Voting System would be a plausible and responsible way of handling what will likely be a period of realignment among the current two party system. The populists on ‘both sides’ would find the idea of non-partisan redistricting for 2020 attractive.
D58826
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: Cute. The GOP was written off as a rump (hmm certain poetry there) party in 2008. How did that work out. If we wake up on Nov 9th and the democrats sweep the WH, both houses of Congress and a goodly number of state and local offices now held by the GOP, then maybe the GOP will be at deaths door. The final nail would be 2010 like wave for the democrats in 2018. There are still a lot of republicans out there with a lot of financial backing. They may be somewhat less crazy than Trump but they will hunker down, let the storm blow over and then come out of their foxholes and start again planning the Koch takeover of America. Trump world might actually be a bit better than Koch/Adelson/Coors world frightening as that thought is
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Just watched the clip, and you’re right. Brownworth’s tweet is very misleading.
D58826
I was reacting to the string of comments attached to the Anne’s post not the tweet or Jane Sanders comment itself. The usual lineup of Bernie bros and hilbots .
DCF
@Kay:
Quite a stretch there, Kay….
I just watched the MSNBC interview again, and I feel her responses and demeanor were entirely in-line with either role (wife/senior adviser)….
On another note…I laughed when Ronald Reagan was nominated as the Republican presidential nominee; I won’t make that assumptive mistake again. Trump’s strengths play directly to Hillary’s weaknesses. Take nothing for granted between now and November….
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
Thanks. It seemed out of bounds to me but who knows these days? They just make stuff up.
It’s still Sanders’ fault. She’s a terrible spokesperson and because he gave her the title of “senior adviser” everything she says will be attributed to his campaign (rightly). It’s just dumb.
Kay
@DCF:
Well, we disagree. “Wife and senior adviser” means just that. If she doesn’t know what it means she shouldn’t be using it and if she does know what it means she can’t rely on “spouse” as an excuse.
FlipYrWhig
@DCF:
Oh my ever-fucking God. You used two adjective-noun pairs to describe Jane Sanders, and all four words are antithetical to reality. She’s inarticulate, speaks freely and sloppily, arrogant, and classless.
BTW, the Robert Reich Facebook page is like ground zero for Berniac delusion. Holy frijoles are they insane there.
Kropadope
@FlipYrWhig: I know you wake up every morning with a raging hate-on. It’s OK, that’s natural. But most of us learned how to deal with that as a teenager.
AnonPhenom
@D58826:
D58826
@Kay: And Bernie did say that she handled the family finances when questions came up about the tax returns. She does seem to be playing a more active role than just ‘official smiler’. So on those specific topics it’s fair game to question.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
Robert Reich, formerly of the Clinton Administration? The guy who helped push thru NAFTA? I don’t know- did he renounce his entire career?
FlipYrWhig
@Kropadope: In my defense, DCF is a particularly ridiculous person.
yellowdog
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: I will donate to any Dem who challenges Sanders, big time!
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: I think he pretty much did — he thinks the Clintons used him. His FB page has this characteristic habit of reading things in a Bernie-slanted way and then saying, at the end, “What do you think?” Whereupon Bernie-crazed fans — and I know several of those, which is why I see everything wriggling under this particular Internet rock — immediately start railing at how Hillary Clinton is a neoliberal warmonger who only wins by media favoritism and election fraud. It’s quite the spectacle.
Kay
@D58826:
Ugh. Bad idea. I don’t know but I don’t think Bernie Sanders would say his position on trade or foreign policy is the same as Trump’s. Jane Sanders saw an opening to attack Clinton but a better spokesperson would have known enough not to pick it up and use it. The question was designed to make her do just what she did- compare Trump and Clinton.
Kropadope
@FlipYrWhig: Despite my prior assertions to the contrary, I’m having a hard time seeing you as any less so.
D58826
@Kay: I think I would add that even the ‘spouse’ defense may be so 20th century. Most spouses are out making speeches, working the rope line and acting as a surrogate so that makes them fair game on the issues they are talking about. If Jane just talks about trade then that is a fair question. If she doesn’t talk about Iraq then probably should be off-limits. Spouses don’t stay home and in Hillary’s infamous words just bake cookies. Kids under 18 and all family members not actively engaged in the campaign are still off limiots
Applejinx
@Freemark: I like her lack of core convictions because it means she’ll use her wonkery for good just as soon as the voters stop demanding stupid things.
Which they are doing, in some ways (and doubling down in others)
D58826
@Kay: I’m not saying she had a good answer just that the spouse defense doesn’t apply
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
At the time they were all singing the same song- NAFTA was wonderful, retrain, etc.
Nothing gets on my nerves more than this amnesia these people adopt. They re-invent themselves and then do it again. Howard Dean wasn’t a paragon of liberalism until “the Netroots” made him one and if that re-invention wasn’t enough he has now gone back to the real Howard Dean who is a centrist.
Kropadope
@Kay:
True, and she found the closest point of comparison. Even here, though, the comparison only holds if you remove petty personal animus, which is about 80% of Trump’s position. Her overall point, which Brownworth lied about and Anne Laurie more-than-retweeted, was that Sanders supporters will not find themselves attracted to Trump’s candidacy.
LanceThruster
I think Jane’s serial sexual philandering will come back to haunt her. How dare she pretend she’s unsullied by scandal.
I guess the integrity of the spouse matters now.
MomSense
@Kropadope:
Oh brother. If Jane and Bernard Sanders earn $428,713 per year (highly likely!) that also puts them in the 1%. Perhaps he should have thought of this before he made millyanaires, billyanaires and the 1% part of his stump speech.
D58826
@Kay: Isn’t he a lobbyist for the medical insurance companies now?
FlipYrWhig
@Kropadope: I have disappointed you. The thought stings me like zero bees.
msdc
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:
I’m afraid this country simply isn’t cool enough to elect a Vice President Admiral McRaven.
FlipYrWhig
@Kropadope: They also fulminate against corruption. Meanwhile, why exactly would Jane Sanders be qualified to run Burlington College? Could it possibly have been because her spouse is an important politician in the state? Nah, probably it’s because of her evident gifts at strategic vision.
D58826
@LanceThruster: The primary is between Hillary and Bernie NOT.I repeat NOT their respective spouse’s sexual history. That is way over the line. Just because the GOP/Trump might use it doesn’t mean that the democrats have to wallow in the hog pen. Politics an’t bean ball but I would like my candidate and party to have a small amount of dignity which I realize is so very 20th(?) century of me. Oh heck that doesn’t even compute. Bill, Gary Hart, Fanny flag and the tidal basin (sign)
Kropadope
@FlipYrWhig: I have little to no insight on the management of Burlington College or the work history/credentials of Jane Sanders. Given that and my complete antipathy for digging up dirt on any candidate’s spouse, let alone a losing one, I would like to respectfully recommend you get a life.
FlipYrWhig
@Kropadope: That’s “senior advisor” Jane Sanders to you, Kropy.
Kropadope
@MomSense: So, you didn’t read my rebuttal, just basically repeated the point I attempted to rebut. Where are we finding these lazy trolls? We need Ted and Helen back.
@FlipYrWhig: Still a losing campaign and still something she did outside her capacity as a campaign surrogate. I call “not important.”
If there was true corruption there, let’s leave that up to the relevant authorities.
Kay
@D58826:
He’s a lobbyist for several entities and groups and he denies it in this legalistic way that is just pathetic.
I saw a debate once between Howard Dean and a conservative lawyer on issues pertaining to the FISA court. The lawyer wiped the floor with him. Howard Dean hadn’t prepared at all. He was conflating issues, wandering off into bullshit, opining instead of arguing. I think there’s arrogance in that. Why does he think he can beat this guy with just bullshit he picked up reading the newspaper? He thought he could wing that? Christ. That’s a pretty big ego.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: Maybe it’s something in the water in Vermont.
Kropadope
@FlipYrWhig: Not disappointed, I just think it’s important to acknowledge when I’m wrong.
D58826
@Kay: I’ve been watching this since the late 1950’s and I long ago gave up on political heroes. They all have feet of clay and in one way or another ‘sell out’ or ‘cash in’ (hopefully after leaving office). Jimmy Carter with his work on Habitat and other good causes may be somewhat of an except. Clinton uses his fame in the Clinton foundation which does good work but certainly helps the Clinton family bank account. Jerry Ford sat on all manners of corporate boards and devoted his life to golf. I’m not saying they are dishonest just very few follow in the footsteps of Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and go back to the farm
MomSense
@Kropadope:
I read your “rebuttal”.
Kropadope
@MomSense: You just didn’t acknowledge it or truly care to respond. You’re still a lazy troll.
FlipYrWhig
@Kropadope: Disheartening to see you suffused with such antagonism so early in the morning. Tsk tsk sigh pout.
DCF
@FlipYrWhig:
Well, at least your commentariat moniker closely aligns with your dysregulated opinion(s)….
Immanentize
@MomSense: Hi MomSence. OT, but I wanted to catch you as you mentioned last week your son was into robotics and looking for something in that way this summer. Just got back from the FIRST championships and they have some programs in New Hampshire in August. What kind of stuff is your son into or looking for?
martian
So, if Jane Sanders is listed as a senior advisor, does that mean she’s pulling down a paycheck from the campaign? Not snark. Bernie has hired her before, though I wouldn’t have expected it in the spotlight of a presidential nomination campaign.
I don’t know why anybody is still talking about a VP offer for Bernie. Submitting years of past tax records is part of the vetting process. I don’t think we’re ever going to see those records. Biden will have to leave the turtle wax and special instructions on the Tao of Trans Am to some other shmoe.
LAC
@FlipYrWhig: I see that Kroptop and DCFlubber are doing their bernbro lapping around BJ again. Careful you don’t chafe, fellas.
D58826
Oh my, the end is near – resident WAPO troll Jen Rubin is say these things abolut Herr Trump –
And Rubin is correct. I never thought I would use the words ‘Rubin’ and ‘correct’ in the same sentence. Trump has lowered the nations politics to that level.
Kropadope
@LAC: Funny you call me that, especially since I’m firmly in Hillary’s camp now. She is also the only presidential candidate I have donated to this election cycle, by the way. That doesn’t mean I’m going to stop telling people when I think they’re being total a-holes.
Some people here think they can rag on Bernie and his supporters endlessly but when someone responds in kind, that person is a whiner or a bro or whatever. It’s the classic bully mentality. “Waah, you’re not allowed to hit back.”
Kay
@D58826:
I don’t think I’m a prig about “civics” and I don’t kid myself that all these people are brilliant but I was depressed watching Trump win last night. I think he’s gross. He has such a big ego and he’s a huge bullshitter and is honestly not very smart and you can’t even say “he’s a populist, came from nothing” because he’s had an incredibly privileged life. He has that stupid, stubborn certainty that so many people admire and I just loathe.
His slogan is Make America Great Again and I think his candidacy is a clear indication of decline.
D58826
More on the trump nightmare –
So whither it is Bernie or Hillary, we underestimate Trump and his appeal at our peril. No one thought Trump would get this far so it is insane not to think that he could not pull it off in November. With the GOP falling in line behind him the GOP slim,e machine and the Trump slime machine will be it full roar. We know Hillary’s ‘scandals’ and as has been hinted at here this morning the Sanders have a history ripe (rightly or wrongly) for ‘scandal mongering’ . And the GOP will Monger!,
The analogy isn’t perfect but Hitler tapped into that same vein of popular discontent, anger and wishing to return to a country that never really existed.
From Dick Polman – http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/national-interest/item/93388-abe-lincoln-must-be-rolling-over-in-his-grave
MomSense
@Immanentize:
Oh cool. He really wants to design robots to play games. He did lego robotics in elementary school.
I will check it out.
Kay
@D58826:
I think Republicans are wrong when they say their decline began with George W Bush’s Presidency or the Tea Party.
It began when they turned impeaching an elected President into an absolute fucking joke. They discredited that process first, and that led easily and naturally to installing George W Bush and then all bets were off.
D58826
@Kay: No argument on that from me.
I know I should watch a lot of this stuff as a good citizen but I can’t take it anymore. I gave up on most of the talk shows because it is mostly two people shouting at one another and whatever valid point they are making is lost in the noise. Chris Hayes and Mellissa Harris Perry seemed to run tight ships and keep the discussion civil, indoor voice level and let one person finish before someone else jumped in.
Ruckus
@The Old fart:
I am not exactly in your position, I can still work part time and do. To supplement my meager SS income. And yes I’ve been paying into it for over 50 yrs and continue to do so. But Sanders is talking about it. OK, how does he propose to actually do the work of changing it? Because talk is cheap. And in Sanders case talk isn’t even cheap, he’s getting paid to talk about it. So why doesn’t he talk about HOW he’s going to change it. Anyone can talk about what change they want, but in politics HOW is vital. He’s left out the HOW in all of his discussions. Which means he’s left out the reality in all of his discussions.
Back to your topic, SS. I’d love for SS to be raised, even just a bit. I maybe could retire sooner. Someone told me that I’d have to work till the day I dropped. Fuck that noise. But the only way to come close to making SS better is to elect DEMOCRATS, and not just in the WH. But the guy who wants to help you and me? He’s not doing anything more than looking for your vote. He doesn’t even have a fantasy road map to accomplish his goals, as nice as they are. My tell for all of this is, he’s been in congress for 25 yrs, when did he propose a bill that would raise your benefits? Or at least when did he sign on to someone elses bill to raise your benefits?
LAC
@Kropadope: and yet you seem oblivious to the jabs you have been rat-tat-tatting this morning. Calling momsense a troll? Really? Because she has an opinion. I do not know whether it is the berniebro in you or just little ole you, but Jaysus you can be a tool
D58826
@Kay: Actually I think it goes back further than that. Once you buy into the concept that government is the problem and not the solution and drowsing it in a bathtub or standing in the way of progress and yelling stop then it is easy to see the entire political process as corrupt. Forcing government to fail in meeting its basic obligations is a feature not a bug and just aids in discrediting the entire process. Layer on top of that the idea that the democrats are traitors and not just the loyal opposition then you have the whole trump package. The GOP even eats its own with the campaign against Rinos. So here we are in 2016 when defaulting on the national debt, shutting down the government, and not confirming a SCOTUS nominee because he will fill a seat that you think you are ‘entitled’ to by some divine act all are considered acceptable acts of governing;
Kropadope
@LAC: Please, ignoring an argument someone makes and repeating the original argument you already made as a response is straight from Trolling 101. Maybe she’s not a troll per se, but what she is doing IS trolling.
Nick Reynolds
Jesus Christ, Balloon Juice has turned into an echo chamber.
What Jane Sanders said is objectively true on trade. Clinton will fast track TPP, while Trump has been on record saying he wouldn’t. This isn’t controversial unless you are making it out to be.
Trump may be a piece of shit, but at least he’s more honest on trade than Clinton who will do anything or say anything for votes or favor from her crony Wall Street pals. Once a Walmart board member always a Walmart board member.
tobie
@Schlemazel Khan: Amen. I don’t even know where this meme is coming from that HRC is jeopardizing social security and medicare. It must be from the Bernie camp, which yet again demonizes the Democratic party–e.g., the current cabinet is “full of lobbyists”–while giving the Republicans, who do want to privatize social security and medicare, a free pass. What a bait and switch. This is the real danger of the Sanders’ campaign. It wants to take down the Democratic party even if that means clearing the way for the Republicans. Bernie lives up to his initials. Pure BS.
Barbara
@BillinGlendaleCA: The difference between Indiana and California is, perhaps, the extent to which she feels the need to build a ground organization for the fall. It’s pretty clear that she has spent more time in those places that she thinks will be important in November. In fact, this explains nearly every decision she has made when it comes to how much resources to pour into the primaries — Ohio, hell yes, lots, Illinois — not so much. Pennsylvania, Nevada, and even New Hampshire — lots and lots, while West Virginia and Kentucky will likely be ignored. I think that was her strategy last time around too, but it didn’t work because Obama blindsided her in Iowa and then with African Americans in southern primary states. So she didn’t make that particular mistake again. Sanders deserves credit for creating the opportunities for himself that he has, but his failure to engage core Democratic party constituencies — especially, but not limited to, African Americans — means he can’t pull off the miracle that Obama did, and Obama did have the support of some serious Democratic establishment people as well, which Sanders has none of. It’s all really predictable and I wish Jane Sanders would stop looking for demons. Maybe she likes the high life a little more than she is willing to admit.
D58826
@The Old fart: @Ruckus:
I’m not in either of your positions. For a number of reasons, some good and some very bad, I find myself, at 70, financially independent w/o social security if need be, and still able to work. I can continue working at the bank because my boss is in the mid-west and I am in Charlotte. Technology lets me do my job as a programmer over the internet so I work from home. It is a DADT situation. And I have the advantage that when I get pissed I can just retire.
But in addition to folks like you I have 30 something nieces that are being screwed by the current system and who deserve a decent retirement in 30 some years just like we do.
Hillary doesn’t walk on water so I’m not expecting miracles from her. And yes I would support Bernie’s single payer system IF IT COULD GET PASSED. It can’t and he has no plan on how to do it. So work incrementally to improve Obamacare and if/when the stars align replace it with single payer. Just accept that the stars might not align till 2050, or ever. In the short run work with what we have. Same thing with social security and bumping the minimum wage and the rest of his program. It’s not the goal I question, it’s how you get there with the political environment that we have. It doesn’t mean you stop trying or shouting from the roof top in a campaign but once your elected you have to govern from the point of view what can I get done. Obamacare isn’t perfect. It would be better with a public option. The votes where not there for a public option. Would you prefer that the approach that no public option then lets vote down obamacare?
Barbara
@Baud: not just saving money. Building up in swing states. It explains everything.
Genue
@Applejinx:
Bernie doesn’t do anything in the Senate, and hasn’t for the majority of his tenure. Getting him out doesn’t benefit anyone besides, perhaps, Vermonters who wish they had someone who was less talk and more action representing them on a national level. More to the point, have you actually been watching Bernie lately? The DNC doesn’t need to whack him when God’s going to do it for them in a year or two.
Kropadope
@D58826:
While this is all true, it doesn’t change the fact that Bernie isn’t arguing “single payer or nothing” and that he would be glad to support incremental reforms and, in fact, does so.
D58826
@Nick Reynolds:
I’m not sure how to unpack that statement. Trump more honest than Clinton? Sure just like the sun comes up in the west. Trump would sell his female relatives into slavery for a vote or a buck.
Kay
@D58826:
Trump is reverse merit. Every advantage, learned nothing but arrogance. That’s what’s depressing.
That certainty when he doesn’t know what he’s talking about trips anger in me, because it comes from “I don’t have to know anything or learn anything and I will be listened to”. Regular people don’t get that. They have to earn credibility.
Barbara
@D58826: Thanks for saying what I was having a hard time articulating. I have three children and while I know from my mother’s experience how great Medicare is for current beneficiaries, the cold hard truth is that current beneficiaries on average receive benefits worth three times the value of what they contributed. Those benefits are funded by current workers, who are also paying for their own health care costs. Medicare has to change — our whole health care system needs to change to reward less pie in the sky medical adventurism and opportunism and that will only happen gradually at least at the start.
tobie
@Nick Reynolds: Hogwash. What has killed manufacturing in this country are not trade deals. Automation and advances in shipping did the trick. That’s why even without a trade deal with China or the south Pacific we’re losing manufacturing jobs to developing economies. Don’t believe me? Take it from Bernie supporter Robert Reich who wrote a book about the twin evils of automation and shipping back in the day:
http://robertreich.org/post/257310389
As usual, Bernie identifies the symptoms but fails to consider the root cause and hence can’t offer real solutions.
D58826
@Kropadope: In which case stop wasting political capital and every ones time on the campaign trail and say my plan is part A make the following improvements to Obamacare in the short run while positioning the health care system for plan B single payer. That isn’t selling out principle its simply practicing pragmatic politics is the art of the possible. I suspect it would also appeal to folks who view single payer as pie in the sky in the near future.
FlipYrWhig
@D58826: Plus Trump’s being “honest” on trade consists of his saying he’d do much better deals, the best, fabulous. He has no idea about anything other than that he’s so fucking awesome it’ll make everything he touches fucking awesome too. How people who see themselves as “left” willingly swallow this utter line of absolute bullshit is a mystery for the ages.
FlipYrWhig
@tobie: “The hogwash only made it worse!” #unbreakable
D58826
@tobie: Just to add – the term Rust belt dates back to at least 1980. Japanese car imports were doing a number on US car markers in the 70’s because among other things they were better cars. And the VW beatle was the car of choice for the hippy generation. All of which happened before any one outside of Hope Ak. had heard of Bill Clinton
D58826
@Barbara: Hopefully Obamacare will continue to bend the cost curve and improve things for Medicare in the long run. From what I’ve read we could have solved most, if not all of the long term funding issues in soc. sec. simply by removing the income cap. And maybe add a small tax on the investment income of the 1%.. I suspect Romney would still be paying more to groom his dancing horse than he would in extra taxes but it certainly would make the lives of the 99% more secure. But the GOP plan to destroy social security/medicare and medicaid is being sold as a reform to save it. The only thing the GOP likes about social security is that big fat pot of tax money that they can hand to the vulture capitalists to play with at the Wall Street casino.
And I’ve been telling my nieces that for a long time as well
moderateindy
John Cole.
I’m sorry Cole but how are you people not “flipping your collective lid” about this? self-aware much?
Also, Ms. Sanders statement has one important element to it….. it happens to be accurate, and is by far Clinton’s biggest weakness against Trump. For the average working stiff Clinton represents NAFTA, while Trump is about changing the current trade policy. Ignore that fact, or make justifications for Hillary’s center right trade tendencies all you like; but that won’t change the perception that Trump want’s to radically change our trade policy, and Hillary doesn’t.
FlipYrWhig
@moderateindy: Trump wants to make it better somehow. No details, no nothing, just trust him because he’s the king of deals. It’s idiotic. He uses undocumented labor, he wriggles off the hook by taking advantage of bankruptcy laws, he’s a scam artist. The only people who are going to fall for this bullshit are people who already hate Hillary Clinton. I realize that’s a large number of people, but not enough to win an election.
LAC
@FlipYrWhig: you might want to ask moderatelady. She is going back for seconds of the trump pablum stew. That is why I find the berniebots so disingenuous. Care soooo much for the common man that they will talk themselves into supporting an asshat born on third base and swearing he hit a triple. With not the slightest awareness of the irony.
dollared
@D58826: But Clinton greased the skids. Totally. It was a massive unforced error for a Democrat.
I’m in technology, at the startup side. Startups do not add jobs to the US anymore. They just create a product, and then move all associated jobs to an Asian or Eastern European location. Even the prototyping takes place overseas.
Clinton accelerated the decline of American manufacturing by at least a full generation.
D58826
@moderateindy:
That is the key word. I don’t think Trump means a word of it and is just stoking peoples anger. Besides in order to get his great deals he has to negotiate with other countries and I doubt they are going to simply roll over and plan dead for The Donald. He can abrogate the treaties and start trade wars and another recession if he wants.
Hopefully between now and November Bernie or Hillary or both can convince the voting public that we should ignore the little man behind the curtain.
tobie
@dollared: Geez. Don’t let facts get in the way of your narrative. Do you even notice the contradiction in your own claims? NAFTA contributed to the export of jobs to Asia or Eastern Europe??? A free trade agreement for North America did that?
You can’t get the US economy to grow and to create manufacturing jobs here by doing things that make the global economy contract. This is what neither Bernie nor Trump gets. It’s so much easier to speak the language of grievance and to create straw men than to deal with the nitty gritty of trade policy, which is really important and really complicated.
D58826
@tobie: And has been going on for a long time
Keith G
@Kropadope: You are, in my view, largely correct in much of this. But let me point out a shared problem. Both enthusiastic Bernie supporters and enthusiastic Hillary supporters at times seem to not understand there are really and truly enemies out there. However, those enemies are not other Democrats or liberal-minded people. Those real enemies that do exist are the people who are most likely to support and vote for Donald Trump.
Those are the folks who do not care about a woman’s right to choose. Do not care about helping this country be able to more effectively take care of those who are economically and socially left behind. Do not care that the promises of the New Deal are faithfully updated to support the challenges of our modern time.
Bernie Sanders will not be the nominee of this party. That being the case, the best thing that the Sanders family can do is to begin operating in the best interests of those who voted for them. I can conceive of no way in which the interest of Sanders voters can be served by further acrimony within or nearby the Democratic Party. Their interest cannot be served by creating or enlarging cleavages Within the Democratic voter base.
I have been eligible to vote in 10 presidential elections and have done so . In only five of those elections did the outcome match what I wanted to have happen. I hope that you as a Bernie supporter can ignore some of the stupid shit is that is said here. Further, I have a more profound hope that you and folks like you can reach out to other Sanders supporters and bring them along to see the necessity in acting as if they were fully supportive of electing Hillary Clinton.
dollared
@tobie: Ever hear of WTT for China? You don’t get out much, do you?
gwangung
@Mike J: By my profession’s standards, I’d estimate Sanders to have an asset base of at least $3-5 million dollars. I don’t believe for a second that he has a net worth of less than seven figures. That said, it doesn’t say that much, but it does mean that he’s solidly affluent.
D58826
Oh my. more family valuers problems at faux news
Kay
@D58826:
This just isn’t true. You’re assuming that Japan and the US had the same rules regarding trade and identical economies and state subsidies and that’s not true. It’s not apples to apples, not a “level playing field’ no matter how many times they say it is. Japan protected their markets from US imports long after the US dropped tariffs on Japan.
That lag time makes a difference. If one country drops tariffs and the other is given 5 or 10 or 25 years where they’re protecting an industry, that 2nd country has an advantage. Now maybe it was worth it for the US to lead on trade, but the idea that it was the inexorable magic of markets is not true.
Is that a level playing field? China’s STATE policies create excess capacity. Is that fair trade? China has a huge advantage, right? How long should they be able to keep that advantage while we’re all pretending it’s “markets”? If it goes on too long no one else will have a steel industry. That’s where a US government that was genuinely interested in a “level playing field” would act.
Amaranthine RBG
Laurie is spot on here. Irish people are simply irrational.
gwangung
@Applejinx:
Pertinent observation. Folks should remember that the Democratic party is a coalition and that it includes both liberal AND more conservative factions. And BOTH are important.
D58826
@Keith G: I agree and posted several long sermons/screeds on a tread yesterday. I also suggested that several commenters stop hurling insults at one another. It only hurts feelings, creates heat and not light, and fails to sharpen the rational for supporting a unified ticket in the general at all levels of the ballot. Even if that means a progressive Alabama has to vote for a blue-dog to flip a congressional seat or a blue dog voter in Vermont helps to turn back a conservative challenge to a siting democratic progressive. There are strategic aspects t o voting not just I like the ‘cut of the persons jib’.
dollared
@gwangung: And that is important because………Al Gore has a big house so he can’t talk about global warming?
D58826
@Kay: I don’t disagree with your response. My oversimplified point was things did not go to hell in a hand basket when Nafta was passed. International trade has been an issue for years. NAFTA may have created a specific set of problems and it certainly gave Ross Perot a nifty talking point but there are a host of other reasons why the American manufacturing sector has changed so much in the past 40 years.
And I have said to any one who listen
is a crock. The law of gravity exists. It existed 4 billion years ago and it will exist 4 billion years from now. Totally untouched by human hands. The ‘market’ is a human construct whither barter or capitalism. I guess you could push the point when chimps trade food for grooming or sex but that gets off the subject. People create the rules of the market it doesn’t happen by magic. From what I’ve read even Adam Smith would have been uncomfortable with vulture capitalism .
dollared
@D58826: Amen. But I think Sanders should keep running – at the very least it keeps attention on the Democratic side of the ticket, at the best it keeps Clinton from veering too far right to be a good president. And running includes being vigorous on the issues. Somebody has to keep Clinton from taking Republican positions, such as free trade and deregulation.
Obviously Dennis disagrees.
dollared
@D58826: Actually, for several million Americans, NAFTA was a disaster. And for several more, WTT with China was worse. And for all Americans, including you, our wages and share of total national income is much lower than if those had not passed. I do what my father did and make, adjusted for the profit dollars generated by my role, half – 50% – what he does. You make about 50% of what a skilled engineer would have made in 1970.
I completely agree that this would have happened over time. But accelerating it was a bad idea. And being the sponsor of it was an insanely bad idea. It put the Democratic Party on the wrong side of a key issue in the minds of the majority of Americans.
D58826
@Cermet: how about ‘shot your self in the foot’ or ‘hoist on your own petard’. I don’t think petards have a gender bias
Kay
@D58826:
No, but “NAFTA” has become a kind of proxy for what are genuinely bad deals. To the people who are affected by these decisions “NAFTA” means all of the things I wrote.
“Bad deal” is from their perspective. Obviously the people who engineered the deals saw a benefit or they wouldn’t have entered into them. Many of the people affected believe the deals were designed to lower wages, to bring down the ceiling, under an ideological view of “competitiveness”.
We can’t tell them two things at once. We can’t tell them we are tough negotiators who are carefully crafting these deals and then when there are downsides say “oh, that’s just markets“. It’s not markets. It’s deliberate state action and it’s elaborately negotiated and if it’s not reciprocal then it’s not a “level playing field”.
dollared
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: You know, this entire rant is stupid, ill informed, inflammatory, unnecessarily personal, and not based on any facts. What has Bernie Sanders done to earn such hatred?
Kay
@dollared:
NAFTA was actually beneficial in some areas – trade with Canada- which is huge in the rust belt. Canada is enough like the US to make it reciprocal. With higher standard of living countries it can easily work to everyone’s benefit, although it’s a myth to say the US is “the gold standard” on worker rights and wages and consumer and environmental protection, which for some reason Obama keeps repeating. No, we’re not.
D58826
@dollared: I’m not arguing that NAFTA isn’t a problem. Just that picking on one trade agreement and blaming every bad trend that has happened since, even those trends that had nothing to do with Mexico or stated long before NAFTA, is shortsighted. There are going to be trade agreements between the US and our trading partners. Those agreements will create winners and losers. Hopefully in the US there will be more winners and they will see to it that the losers (and I means that in an economic sense not a moral judgement) are helped to transition to the new economy. For what ever reason the important winners (the 1% not the bartender who busy clothes a bit more cheaply at Walmart) don’t give a damn and have let the rest of us drown. Our trading partners are not going to roll over and play dead for Trump as they have voters/workers to satisfy also. Turning trade deals into the equivalent of pedophilia is dangerous. And I’m not suggesting that is the intent of any one on BJ but Der Trumper I’m not so sure.
muddy
@Genue:
Stupid Vermonters, voting for someone for ages when he has never done a thing for them! Silly rubes!
D58826
@Kay: I agree with what you are saying. The problem with making NAFTA the proxy for generally bad deals specifically and the issues of the manufacturing sector in general is it diverts attention from the other problems.
I’m not sure if it was you or someone else of an earlier thread who said there are many high tech manufacturing jobs going begging because the company can’t find the skilled workers. Fixing NAFTA and TPP won’t correct that but better educational opportunities will. So while Trump leads us down the garden path with the green lantern trade deals our schools don not turn out 21st century workers. We have to be able to walk, chew gum and check our smart phones all at the same time
Kay
@D58826:
The thing about trade deals is no one talks about the losers. This is the administration page on TPP. It’s all winners.
They know that’s not true. We know they know because they promoted the deal by pretending “trade assistance” funding was some extra benefit of the trade deal when actually it’s a half-assed plan to limit some of the harm.
The response to the increased scrutiny of US trade policy should be to start telling people the truth. They should know who is going under the old trade bus this time and why that’s good policy.
D58826
@Kay: I know. Politicians always push the sugar never the vinegar when it comes to their policies. Obviously the reverse for the other guy’s policies. And for the folks who don’t pay attention between elections it works. The political junkies and policy wonks get into the details and burn tetra-electrons on blogs like this.
Paul in KY
@cmorenc: It is like The Ring, isn’t it?
Paul in KY
@The Old fart: Who the fuck is JWB?
Paul in KY
@Micheline: Do not want Deval Patrick.
Paul in KY
@DCF: Ha, ha, ha!!!!
Paul in KY
@msdc: Is that a real name? ‘McRaven’? Sounds like something off a Sat morning cartoon.
Paul in KY
@D58826: Cincinnatus was one in a billion on that. Would have liked to meet him.
Paul in KY
@tobie: The rise of the giant 20 knot container ships did in our manufacturing jobs. One of the only things Adam Smith never contemplated.
Paul in KY
@D58826: You’re damn right he would have been aghast at ‘vulture capitalism’. Trade and businessmen must be tightly regulated, or they will screw us all over in a heartbeat (basic Adam Smith)..
gwangung
@dollared: I think it’s a point of consideration because he’s also coming from a point where he has a set of blinkers because of wealth and he should be open about that. He’s been remarkably cagey about his personal finances, which is not a good look for a presidential candidate.
Bob In Portland
@starscream: http://iwilllookintoit.com/
Bob In Portland
@Micheline: Funny how those things work. Money changes everything.
dollared
@gwangung: I’m thinking you are making a typical Republican argument – that rich people are “hypocrites” when advocating for less rich people. And anything you could prove from that (who knows? Maybe his family left him $50M) would apply much more strongly to Clinton. (Except, of course, when she defends bankers and oil companies, she’s not a hypocrite because it’s all about the money?)
I’m not criticizing Clinton, mind you. I just think you’re drilling in Republican leaseholds.
LanceThruster
@D58826:
She has been attacked for being clueless as well as supposedly part of some shady dealings with her old institution of higher education. Senator Sanders is routinely mocked here for being an unprepared unknown quantity. The part that scares me about Hillary is her known quantity. For all the concern about progressive values that she’ll choose to champion, I sincerely believe her hawkishness will get innocent people killed, and her compromising with corporate interests will continue to poison the planet and enact nothing but band-aid measures regarding the economy.
Bernie all the way!
Ruckus
@D58826:
I don’t see how you got that I’m in any way for Sanders from my comment. Or the few comments that I’ve made over the last few months.
Cleos
@The Old fart:
Trust me, those of us on Social Security know better than that. And don’t need Bernie to tell us.
Yes, I paid into SS for 50 years too and I’m a Clinton supporter. And have had enough breakups to be familiar with “you’ll miss him when he’s gone” (not usually).
Cleos
@MomSense:
I’m starting to wonder if anyone has a credible theory as to how many enemies Sanders has managed to make in the Democratic party.