If you think recycling Scott Brown's hate-filled attacks on my family is going to shut me up, @realDonaldTrump, think again buddy. Weak.
— Elizabeth Warren (@elizabethforma) May 7, 2016
Yes, I am still a fangrrl for my senior Senator — and I’m not alone. From Politico, David S. Bernstein reports:
… Between Warren’s powerful fundraising chops and the potential for a Donald Trump candidacy to push Senate seats into Democratic hands, the next Senate could see a whole new power bloc with Warren at the head.
Warren’s influence is twofold. First and foremost, she’s the undisputed queen of the party’s message: Warren-esque liberalism has become the de facto tongue for most of the party’s Senate candidates, regardless of gender—just as her brand of economic populism has dominated the Democratic presidential primaries. Warren’s passions— decreasing college debt, investing in research and regulating financial institutions—have become the party’s passions.
And since winning election to the Senate in 2012, Warren has emerged as her party’s most potent ally at the operational level. She’s described by veteran Democrats as a “rock star” fundraiser—filling the boot for individual candidates as well as for the powerful Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. Earlier this year, Warren sent her top staffer, Mindy Myers, to run the DSCC’s independent expenditure arm—where the big bucks flow. And now she’s gearing up for an exceptionally busy 2016 that will kick into high gear during the summer Senate recess and last well into the fall.
In a normal year, the Senate would be likely to stay in Republican hands. But now that Trump has secured the nomination, the prospect of a powerful anti-Trump turnout puts as many as a dozen Republican-held seats in play—with the possibility of electing as many as eight new female senators to join the 12 Democratic women who will return in 2017. That would give us a new Senate with a Democratic majority, a historically large bloc of women—as many as 20 on the Democratic side—and one person ready to lead them. In short, Trump could end up making Warren one of the most powerful people in the Capitol…
Already in the 2016 election cycle, Warren has sent fundraising emails on behalf of 10 candidates, including seven who are challenging Republican incumbents or running for open seats. They are Russ Feingold, who is looking to return to the Senate in Wisconsin; Kamala Harris, the favorite for an open California seat; Tammy Duckworth, challenging Mark Kirk in Illinois; Maggie Hassan, the New Hampshire governor locked in a blockbuster clash with budding Republican superstar Kelly Ayotte; Jason Kander, whose bid against Roy Blunt in Missouri now seems far less quixotic; Catherine Cortez Masto, Harry Reid’s chosen successor in Nevada; and former Governor Ted Strickland, who is fighting a nail-biter with Ohio incumbent Rob Portman…
Flipping a Senate majority, from its current 46-54 deficit, has been considered a crapshoot. But a Trump nomination could slide a whole host of contests into Democratic hands. As the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia depicted last month, a “Trumpmare” scenario would push Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire and Pennsylvania Senate races from “Tossup” or “Lean Republican” to “Lean Democrat.” It’s easy to see why: Recent polls show Clinton beating Trump by 15 points in Pennsylvania and 19 points in New Hampshire. It’s hard to imagine that kind of lopsided drubbing wouldn’t affect the Senate races there….
Part of Warren’s success at thumping Scott (Weak!) Brown was that Sen. Himbo and his Masshole supporters could not resist going after her with the dumbest, most obnoxious attacks — hooting & tomahawk chops — stuff that repelled even Brown-sympathetic voters. Trump is Scotty ‘Cosmo Boy’ Brown, only with more money and even lower standards. Warren’s given every Democrat a template for prodding Deadbeat Don into shooting his own campaign in the foot, repeatedly.
Amaranthine RBG
Just imagine how wonderful it would be if Warren was the democratic candidate.
Linnaeus
This is why I didn’t agree with the notion that Warren should run for President. The Senate is where she is most effective.
schrodinger's cat
What repelled Scott Brown’s supporters in Massachusetts may not repel non Mass Trump supporters. Many of his supporters sport white power tattoos for crying out loud.
ThresherK
Another Dem whose opponents’ fans “could not resist going after with the dumbest, most obnoxious attacks”?
Heehee. Starting to be a theme.
Trentrunner
At least Scott Brown’s vacant handsomeness is easy on the eyes.
Whereas Trump…
Eeew…Not all Neptune’s Clorox Bleach will wash away that image…
Chris
@Linnaeus:
Yep. And quite frankly we need a lot more work shoring up Congress than we do the White House.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Linnaeus: I hope she’s making Chuck Schemer very nervous. And I agree with you, I wish more people, specifically more Dems/liberals/progressives, would recognize the importance of the Legislative branch.
She’s supporting, if memory serves, all the Senate candidates in states where Obama gave local TV interviews this week on the condition they ask about their home state Senate races.
different-church-lady
Of course it doesn’t hurt that these are also very much common sense things.
debbie
The only consolation to her not running for the presidency would be to take the gavel from McConnell. I for one am not looking forward to it going to Schumer.
gwangung
@schrodinger’s cat: Yup yup yup.
The Peter Principle operates for politicians, too.
(And let’s remember that the Presidency means more than having the right positions; it means having the moxie to execute those positions and the desire to execute executive level plans. Warren might have one, but probably not the other).
Prescott Cactus
Warren / Baud 2024
Yes, she will be 74 years old.
Linnaeus
@Chris: @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Agreed with both of you – it’s especially important given that Congress seems to have been somewhat parliamentarized in recent years.
Rolling Along
If Hillary keeps running on her high heels she may hand the election to,Trump. There aren’t enough Beta Males out there to make up for the support you will lose from men.
shomi
You guys or gals or whoever are talking about this like it’s hard. Drumpf appeals to people lowest most negative selves. It’s not rocket science.
In fact I might actually watch the debates for a change. Hillary is going to make Drumpf curl up into a ball and cry like a little baby. All she has to do is wind him up a bit by pushing his buttons which is very easy to do. Then just sit back and let him rant and rave and call her names like some child. All the time remaining silent and looking like the disapproving mother. It will be glorious. Drumpf cannot possibly talk serious about policy so he is just going to attack and I guarantee you Hillary will be ready for that.
Of course this is all assuming Drumpf is the candidate. I still think Republicans are going to pulls some funny business during the convention and try get someone else in there. So it is not smart to get sucked into the Drumpf vortex just yet. Don’t want to encourage Republicans to try find someone else. Drumpf will be a beautiful gift if he is the nominee. Don’t spoil it.
rikyrah
Hmmph
Palin: Paul Ryan’s Career is ‘Over’ for Not Supporting Trump
By ALANA ABRAMSON May 8, 2016, 11:13 AM EST
Sarah Palin will work to defeat House Speaker Paul Ryan in his primary reelection challenge, she said Sunday.
“I think Paul Ryan is soon to be ‘cantored,’ as in Eric Cantor,” the former Alaska Governor and 2008 vice presidential candidate said on CNN’s State of the Union. Cantor, the former House Majority Leader and Virginia congressman, was unexpectedly defeated in June 2014 by Tea Party conservative David Brat.
Ryan is being challenged in an August primary by Wisconsin businessman Paul Nehlen, who has pledged support for Trump as the presumptive presidential nominee, “because it will have been the will of the voters that got him there,” he said in a statement.
Palin further slammed Ryan for not extending the same support for Trump.
“His political career is over, but for a miracle, “Palin added, “because he has so disrespected the will of the people and yeah, as the leader of the GOP, the convention certainly, he is to remain neutral, and for him to already come out and say who he will not support, was not a wise decision of his.”
Mai.naem.mobile
I hope Trumps family is around him on election night. He might become suicidal and I’m aerious, no joke.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: so I’m the only one whose autocorrect changes Schumer to Schemer ? also, Kasich to Katich, which I think is really weird. Who/what’s a Katich?
MattF
@schrodinger’s cat: It’s true that Der Trump is always sending messages to his supporters– but his supporters are a minority within a minority. The trick that Warren has mastered is sending messages to everyone else.
different-church-lady
@Rolling Along: [blink]
scav
@different-church-lady: Common sense: ever notice how thin on the ground that can be? It’s rather an aspirational name, right up there with Homo sapiens, let alone Homo sapiens sapiens,
Mike J
@Mai.naem.mobile: You trust a Trump to stop a suicide that is going to make them millions?
O. Felix Culpa
@debbie: Agreed that Schumer is not a favorite, but he’d be a considerable improvement over Yertle. Nice that conditions are such that we can even contemplate flipping the Senate. GOTV is critical, as well as supporting voters’ organizations like Vote Rider.
different-church-lady
@shomi: I’m telling you, it’s going to be Bugs Bunny v. Yosemite Sam.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Linnaeus: I think it was Tom Davis (R-VA retired) who said on MSNBC the other day that he always ran ahead of the GOP statewide because he was known for bringing home the bacon, he was Mr Northern VA, I think he said. He said it’s the elimination of earmarks that nationalized every election (if I understand correctly that that’s what you mean by parliamentarized)
gogol's wife
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I thought you were being really clever with Charles Schemer!!!
Gin & Tonic
@Rolling Along: Christ, you’re stupid.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gogol’s wife: I let the internets does my thinkiness for me
Rolling Along
To win Trump needs to run as a man’s man, the ultimate Alpha. That’s his best shot at taking down an opponent who reminds men of their nagging mother in laws telling them to take out the trash every time she makes a speech.
Masculine power is what Trump needs to exert while the Dems are once again painted into the corner of being the “mommy party”.
Formerly disgruntled Clinton supporter
@Rolling Along: This “beta male” sez HA HA – sux to be you, RtR.
different-church-lady
@Rolling Along: You are aware women are allowed to vote, yes?
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I think Autocorrect is looking to take over the world. I’m usually on my laptop, but I’ve noticed more and more mistypes from you mobile kids.
different-church-lady
Being perpetually wrong on the internet: is that an alpha or a beta thing?
MattF
@different-church-lady: Even mothers-in-law!
different-church-lady
@debbie: Everyone complains about autocorrect. But nobody ever turns it off.
Haydnseek
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I some eastern European languages, it’s one of the male forms of the proper name Katy. But not all of them.
Rolling Along
@different-church-lady:
Yes, but most women aren’t angry unmarried Third Wave feminists posting on Tumblr. Most women like Alphas and despise pajama boy type Betas that is your typical male Democrat.
MattF
@different-church-lady: I’ve turned it off. That means I have to guess when I’ve misspelled something (and I’m an epically bad speller), but that’s a small price to pay.
dedc79
Trump’s gonna have his supporters dizzy from trying keep up with his evolving positions:
scav
hoooo-hoo-hoo, that man’s-man, bare-chested political-leader love is un-leashed! One can hear the airplanes landing on shoulders as an inevitable sign of victory once again. Sparkles up the leg!
feebog
Caught a minute of Trump on both NBC and ABC this morning. He was trying to get to the left of Clinton on the minimum wage. He said he couldn’t see how anyone could live on $7.25 per hour. But, let the states decide, its not the job of the federal government to set a floor. Well Mr. Trump your Republican friends in red states aren’t going to do anything about it, so you really don’t have a solution do you?
MattF
@dedc79: And he could change his mind again tomorrow– it wouldn’t matter.
ThresherK
@Rolling Along: Your repeated use of certain terminology makes you sound cucksure (no sic) of yourself.
debbie
@different-church-lady:
It seems to be more aggressive and less predictive from what I’ve seen. Even Siri has gotten out of hand.
different-church-lady
@Rolling Along: You know what about being a woman?
shomi
@different-church-lady: Or Road Runner vs Wile E Coyote
Jim, Foolish Literalist
couple of tidbits from twitter on the Sunday shows
I’m assuming “gotcha” there means Todd concurred, not “gotcha” as in Todd’s Russet-like bulldog instincts kicked in.
Rolling Along
Run on cultural shibboleths and forget policy workers–that’s not Trump’s strength anyway. Use the Daddy Party vs Mommy Party frame to the max.
Ex. School lunches. Endlessly ridicule the move to “healthy” options for school lunches and the banning of big gulps. Trump already stated his diet consists of “steak, potatoes, chocolate shakes, whatever the hell I want.” Play up that angle: double bacon cheeseburgers vs. arugula with quinoa.
Make this election a referendum on the nanny state, and political correctness, especially Third Wave Feminism.
different-church-lady
@MattF: Dunno what platform you use, but on my iPhone auto correct and spell check are separate. My phone will still flag misspelling but not automatically correct.
Tom Levenson
@dedc79: my fear. His supporters don’t give a damn about his positions. They like his attitude/affect — which means he might be able to etch-a-sketch far more easily than the Rombot ever could. Which might persuade some. I hope not enough.
Most important, I think: not to get caught up in his framing of this or that (his latest 2nd amendment attack, e.g.) and spend the next several weeks on full scale definitional attack. He’s a deadbeat weakling who f**ks over everyone foolish enough to get close to him. Make him that man by July 21.
Of course, my brilliant political insights are why I’m running major campaigns to victory in every cycle!
Luthe
@Rolling Along:
@Rolling Along: That’s it. You’ve crossed the line into self-parody.
Is that you, DougJ?
different-church-lady
@Rolling Along: It will be hysterical when he slumps over from a cardiac event midway through the second debate.
dedc79
@Tom Levenson:
@MattF: It won’t matter for his loyalists, but he’s welcome to their votes. They won’t get him close to a majority.
different-church-lady
@dedc79:
He’s going to endorse Hillary before this is all over.
trollhattan
@different-church-lady:
But they always vote who the mens tell them to!
Am a tiny bit sad rtr ran out of next-best-things to remora over to. Whence comes the Cheetoes and Netflix budget?
lwestsd
@different-church-lady: Pretty sure it’s a Gamma thing. Oxygen-deprived, drug and alcohol addled, see Brave New World caste system.
Rolling Along
@Luthe:
I wanted the campaign to be on issues, it’s why I supported someone with real chips as a policy wonk for my first choice: Jeb Bush. Let’s face it, Trumpmdoesnt care about policy. This needs to be a full on Culture War campaign. Think the 1988 Atwater playbook but on steroids. Make it sbo
ThresherK
@Rolling Along: “Third Wave Feminism”?
You’ll have to explain to your cohorts what that is. They don’t follow policy, remember?
Baud
@different-church-lady:
While wearing a pant suit
trollhattan
@Rolling Along:
Picture of health is the Donald.
Gin & Tonic
@Rolling Along: So it took you what, 48 hours to go from mythical third-party throw-it-to-the-House-ism to down on your knees fellating Trump? That kind of backbone, is it an Alpha or a Beta characteristic?
Denali
Why oh why must every headline/article relate to Trump? There is something to the mantra that there is no such thing as bad publicity.
There are other things going on in the world, people. Just because Trump is unpredictable doesn’t mean he is fascinating.
Rolling Along
Make it about political correctness, “micro aggressions”, “safe spaces”, etc and endlessly ridicule people who use those terms without irony. Make Hillary own the Tumblr feminist left. This will give a big boost to make turnout and black/Hispanic men may even get turned off by white feminists harpies lecturing them about “rape culture”.
Gin & Tonic
@Rolling Along: Yeah, I like real chips too. None of that Pringles crap.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Tom Levenson: Absolutely, especially your first point. The good news, I think, is that he knows his peeps lose interest when he’s not being a loudmouth bully, and he needs those hoots and seal clapping and barking, which will make defining him easier.
(to any candidates reading, I am willing to charge 10% less for my brilliant advice than Tad Devine and Bob Shrum.)
yellowdog
@Rolling Along: Women vote in higher number and percentages than men. You can’t win an election by demonizing and sidelining women.
Uncle Cosmo
@Trolling Awrong fka Ripe2Rot: Jeezus H. Ka-Rist on a Harley, you’re even more stupid than any of us thought. Pond scum could make more constructive use of whatever organic molecules are jailed in your worthless carcass.
ETA: Any comment to the effect that “You [R2R] are out of your fucking mind” would assume facts not in evidence–that you [R2R] had more than 2 synapses to rub together in your skull to begin with.
different-church-lady
@Baud: Hey I got something to save your campaign: naming a VP isn’t enough. You should name your entire cabinet.
Mike in NC
@Rolling Along: Moron Drooling Along is still waiting for the 2012 election to be called in favor of Mitt Rmoney, because the polls were skewed.
Rolling Along
@Gin & Tonic:
Should be “chops” not “chips”.
Likewise, he needs someone with culture war chops for VP: for that reason he should go with Paul LePage. Don’t run away from “telling it like it is”, embrace it. LePsge said the NAACP could “kiss his butt”. It’s that kind of non-PC attitude that is sweeping the nation this year.
Tom Q
It’s a small thing, but this sentence in the article got in my craw: “In a normal year, the Senate would be likely to stay in Republican hands.” Unless by “normal year”, he means “a year when the Republicans win the presidency”, I don’t see how he can make that argument. In every year this century, one party has dominated in Senate victories — generally the winning party in party presidential years and the out-party in midterms (the exception 2002, when Bush’s post-9/11 approvals made the GOP the contra-historical dominant party). Most commonly, this has led to large Senate gains — the only truly small turnover was 2012, and that’s because Dems were defending a class that was already skewed Dem from their showings in 2000 and 2006.
Given how many GOPer seats are at stake from their big haul in 2010, the prospect of a Dem presidential victory was always going to make the GOP hold on the Senate this year tenuous. Yes, the hideousness of Trump pushes Dem hopes into the stratosphere, but even in a “normal” year, Dem control was at least a decent bet.
MattF
@Gin & Tonic: A Pringles joke. Also did you know that Gene Wolfe (the sci-fi/fantasy author) was the engineer who designed the Pringles chip? He boasts that it’s the only potato chip with negative curvature.
different-church-lady
@lwestsd:
I always suspected it.
Calouste
@Tom Levenson: You’re still better than Tad Devine, who runs major campaigns to defeat every cycle.
Chyron HR
@Rolling Along:
We’re terrified, really.
bystander
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I hope that’s not a typo. But either way, thanks for LOL. He’s disgusting.
different-church-lady
@MattF:
You sure he didn’t say negative flavor?
SiubhanDuinne
@shomi:
Have to agree with you. Maybe it’s just denial on my part, but I still can’t quite believe that he’ll end up with the nomination — although, because it’s good for us, I hope he does!
MattF
@different-church-lady: That too.
Amir Khalid
@feebog:
The Donald’s been all over the place on this issue, hasn’t he? One day he says the minimum wage is too high, another day he says raise it.
Troublesome Carp fka Geeno
@Rolling Along: By beta-males – you men who aren’t intimidated by women?
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Katich (alternate spellings Katic, Katicz) is a common surname in many slavic languages
I love Warren exactly where she is. She is forming/leading the left bloc in the D party. A long overdue development.
dedc79
@different-church-lady: I’ve been pretty skeptical of the NeverTrumps, figuring that they’d all turn into EventuallyTrumps. While there’s a lot of time left, I’m no longer so certain. A lot of the wingers are convinced that Trump is a democratic plant who has managed to trick half their voters.
When they see Trump reverse course on an issue like the minimum wage, this is further proof to them that he’s a democrat in republican clothing.
scav
@Chyron HR: Well, imagine how further Rubio could have gotten with better chips. Besides, once they’re chipped, their owners can better track them down and claim them if they wonder off or run away.
Rolling Along
@Troublesome Carp fka Geeno:
think pajama boy or the fat, out of shape nerds who take pics holding “I need feminism because” signs thinking it will get them women. Typical Dem voting Betas.
Again, it won’t matter if Trump flip flops on issues as long as he runs on the culture war. Read what’s on Rod Dreher’s blog for example: making the election all about those things may lead to a landslide. The backlash is coming.
rikyrah
Warren is leading the way.She is showing how to attack Trump and the GOP. Stop cowering, Democrats ?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@SiubhanDuinne: I think derailing him at the convention would be the best of all possible worlds for Dems, it would send Trump on a six month rampage against their nominee. But they know this. I think that’s why you see the likes of Ayotte and McCain trying to keep their heads down and not rile up Trump’s base in what’s looking to be a very close race in their states. And why Ryan is hedging his bets and Cruz dropped out. I think they’re writing off 2016 in favor of their own 2020 ambitions.
(and again, to paraphrase Jack Nicholson in Prizzi’s Honor, If I’m so fucking smart, how come I’m so fucking unemployed as a Sabbath Gasbag)
BruceFromOhio
This is a splendid thought I will be thinking of again and again. Why get entrapped in the race for the WH when you can hold a more meaningful place in the Senate?
@rikyrah: This x sixteen jillion.
Tim C.
@Rolling Along: GO call your mother, she misses you. Also, sounds like you need a hug.
Anoniminous
Obama was +11 with women in 2012. Clinton should be +15 and could be higher. Women were 53% of voters in 2012, that should rise to 55% and could be higher. Throw in the 47% of men who voted for Obama in ’12 and we are looking at an old fashioned curb-stomping ass-kicking.
MattF
@SiubhanDuinne: It’s been pointed out that the delegate selection tactics of Cruz and Kasich mean that lots of the delegates who will be voting for Trump on the first ballot are actually opposed to him. Will make for an interesting atmosphere at the convention.
Chyron HR
@Rolling Along:
If you’re under the impression that hashtags count as electoral votes, you’re going to be pretty disappointed in November.
different-church-lady
Of course, when one actually thinks about it, there’s a hell of a lot more betas than alphas, by definition.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: You made me laugh.
MikeBoyScout
Like Senator Warren?
Would you like to do her a real solid in supporting her efforts to defeat Trump and take back the Senate?
Register a new voter today.
If we each do a little every week, we can win the whole kit and caboodle.
Yes.We.Can.
scav
given that rollin’s only claim to personality is being reflexively more extreme than the leading team R clickbait, A) he’s going to really have to wallow in the Mariana Trench; B) never sleep, and C) probably be on anti-nausea pills for the meme-switching of his current leader (even given his demonstrated tolerance for similar conditions while candidate-switching, the man’s a patient-zero for political plague). I bet he doesn’t even vote really: thinks himself too cool and knowledgeable to actually pull levers. Reality is his video game, all a facade, but that’s a close as he gets.
D58826
At the risk of getting burned by the Berners, isn’t it odd that Warren with a message similar to Bernie’s is a household name after just 4 years in the Senate. I know she was rather well known before she ran for the Senate and has held several important posts in the Obama administration and Reid senate. But after 20 years in Congress and prior to his run for president, most people could not have picked Bernie out of a one man police lineup, Sen. Warren has had real impact. Bernie not so much. Maybe there is something to that being a team player in the party and the inside game. Sure we need the outsiders to stir things up but they usually don’t accomplish much if they remain as outsiders..
starscream
I love Liz Warren, but it will take a supermajority and the House to get any of her goals accomplished.
bystander
@shomi:
For those of us who watched Rick Loozio commit hara kiri on the debate stage while Hillary stared daggers at him, this will be a long to be savored event.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@D58826: she’s also working to build a more progressive Senate majority, not threatening floor fights over delegate rules and platform planks.
Amir Khalid
@starscream:
I suggest you take note of MikeBoyScout #93.
Davis X. Machina
@different-church-lady:
For now……
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Tom Q: That struck me too.
It seems like political reporters are getting much sloppier these days and/or they’re getting much worse at hiding their framing. Or maybe we’re all getting better at catching things like this.
It’s still early, but it’s hard to see the Senate not flipping. We need to make it happen, and we need to try to flip the House too.
Cheers,
Scott.
inventor
Trump supporters aren’t “alpha” males. Any “alpha” with a three digit I.Q. can see Trump as the whiney, privileged, little bitch he is.
Trumpists are toadies, not alphas. Toadies are the skeezy bully’s side-kick. They fawn over authoritarians and don’t like to think for themselves.
There aren’t enough “Trump Toadies” ™ to turn a single Obama ’12 state. They’re annoying with their incessant whining and posturing, but like their idol, will run like a squealing little bitch when things get real.
JosieJ (not Josie)
I truly hope Trump takes Rolling Along’s advice. The drubbing he gets will go from ‘epic’ to ‘downright apocalyptic’!
D58826
@gwangung: If only Obama’s skill at 11 dimensional chess was something that could be transferred. As well as his verbal skill at gently but every so devastatingly skewering the GOP and the Donald with his wit.
redshirt
Haven’t read the thread [rolls up sleeves}, but let me tell this troll what’s what….
benw
@different-church-lady: the concept of alpha/beta has been outdated by new research on wolves anyway; and it’s never been healthy IMO to apply that model to human behavior anyway.
Gelfling 545
@Linnaeus: exactly. The idea that strong, effective progressives should leave Congress & do something else is extremely short sighted. i was really concerned when Clinton left the Senate for SoS..we lucked out & got Gillibrand but, really, we could have gotten anybody. Warren is great in the Senate. Let’s not mess with success.
Rolling Along
Trump won’t agree to debate so you can forget about any debat moments. He’d be an idiot to agree to one when he gets endless free media.
Davis X. Machina
God doesn’t love us that much….
Mike J
@different-church-lady:
Nobody gets elected alpha. They seize the role through violence. We put people like that in prison.
Rolling Along
@inventor:
Trump is the quintessential Alpha. Strong. Direct. Knows what he wants. Pleases himself before others. Dominating. Looks people in the eye and tells it like it is. And he’s been able to sleep with whatever woman he wants.
He needs to run on that. Daddy Party vs Mommy Party, Alphas vs Betas.
SiubhanDuinne
@scav:
Needs fixin’.
? Martin
Here’s where Trump is dangerous:
That statement is complete bullshit, but a lot of voters are desperate and they won’t care that it’s bullshit. Trump is promising a ‘minimum wage’ of more than $15. How many voters will see the lie for what it is with the media that we have?
Mr Stagger Lee
@Linnaeus: Agreed I want her to be Senate Majority leader one day/
Baud
@different-church-lady:
I left my patronage list in my pant pocket and it went through the wash.
bystander
I’d play up the fact that not everyone can afford teams of tailors extensively molding suits to cover his pear shape and huge flat ass.
Firebert
Speaking of our Alpha Male corporate overlords, the attempt by Uber and Lyft to undo city regulations in Austin was defeated yesterday, and they are threatening to cease operations here, like whiny little crybabies.
Iowa Old Lady
My next band name
D58826
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That and the two parties becoming more ideologically based. Not as much on the D side but there are almost none of the democrats/republicans that held larger interchangeable positions like they did in the 50’s and 60’s. Remember it took moderate/liberal republicans and moderate/liberal democrats to pass the civil rights/voting rights bills in 1965. Would never see that overlap today. There are no liberal republicans and only a few sorta moderates. Most Goopers are conservative to very conservative to stone age conservative.
BruceFromOhio
@Rolling Along: I’m going to bet that you are single.
And while Dreher is moderately entertaining on his best day, you’ve got it perfectly backwards on the landslide. The ‘culture war’ fairy tale worked for St. Ronnie because he had some acting experience, and maybe, possibly, even believed the fairy tale. No such luck this run. It’s a gravy-train grift parade of fail, from the Klown Kar Kalvacade that has finally spat out the last Klown standing, and is now headed to the RNC Ferret Circus in Cleveland that Reince will have to pay people to attend by the time it rolls around. The only surprising element to all of this is that anyone, anywhere, treats this supposedly-conservative Republican shitshow with anything but contempt and ridicule.
Rolling Along
Speaking of cabinets:
VP: Paul LePage
Secretary of State: Jeb Bush
Secretary of Defense: General McCrystal
Secretary of the Treasury: John Kasich
Attorney General: Chris Christie
Health and Human a services: Rick Scott
Secretary of Education: Ben Carson
For SCOTUS: Ted Cruz
#TeamOfRivals
? Martin
@Rolling Along:
Derp. Of course he’s running on that.
The problem that alphas have is that they vastly overestimate their number and their appeal. An alpha campaign will generally get you 27% of the vote, and that’s about it. Lotka–Volterra applies here.
Jay C
@Rolling Along:
I was actually going to post something along the lines of “GFY, troll!”, but had to pause for some LOLs:
“Read Rod Dreher’s blog”? Seriously? The blogger whose main gripe about society is that it evolved away from its 15th-Century ideal as a barometer of political analysis in 2016?
redshirt
@Davis X. Machina: It’s my best case. LePage would have to resign as Governor if he was tabbed to be the R VP, right? And then Trump loses and LePage is gone and rainbows and unicorns and blaring horns and confetti falling from the sky. I’m hoping!
Rolling Along
@? Martin:
Take a look at movements like MGTOW and The Red Pill. Lots of disaffected men pissed off at Third Wave Feminism–they’ll come out in droves to vote if given a culture war race.
inventor
@Rolling Along: Did you learn that at Trump U.?
That must be the first day’s lesson in “Toadie 101”. When do they teach you to beat women? Is that in Sophomore year?
dmsilev
@Rolling Along:
What, Trump is scared of facing a woman one-on-one? Sure, roll with that.
redshirt
@Rolling Along: Don’t forget GamerGate. There’s literally hundreds of fat nerds out there who haven’t voted before that Donald could appeal to!
Rolling Along
@dmsilev:
He’ll say the Commission is “treating me unfairly” and leave it at that. Trump is Teflon, baby.
dmsilev
@Rolling Along:
Hands up, anyone who predicted our pet troll would be a MRA type. What, everyone has their hand up? I’m shocked.
Rolling Along
@redshirt:
fat nerds are democrat Betas.
? Martin
@Rolling Along: This is just bad trolling. LePage, Cruz? DougJ wouldn’t even consider trolling with this post, it’s just too openly stupid to be believable.
Rolling Along
@dmsilev:
I’m not into either. I’ve had no trouble getting women. I’m just saying Trump would have massive appeal to people turned off by Third Wave feminism.
redshirt
@Rolling Along: Glad you took some time off and am rather shocked you’re pro-Trump now. SHOCKING!!!!
dmsilev
@Rolling Along: Brave Sir Trump ran away. And will he run away from Putin or the Chinese if they “threaten to treat him unfairly”?
Rolling Along
@? Martin:
Word is he’s being vetted! Stay tuned.
dedc79
@Rolling Along:
You slipped up there, DougJ. That was a tell.
D58826
@bystander: Or when she flipped the imaginary dust off her shoulder at the Benghazi hearing
Punchy
Trump’s plan to double the minimum wage for the poors is to require all of them to work a second job. $7.25 x 2 = almost $15 !
Rolling Along
@redshirt:
Not pro Trump per se, just trying to give some helpful advice. I’m neutral right now.
I prefer policy wonks like Jeb and Scott Walker over culture war types, but the only way for Trump to win is my culture war strategy. “Atwater on steroids”. Make it so no self respecting heterosexual man will ever vote for Billary.
scav
@SiubhanDuinne: But you’ve surely met middle-crisis, comb-over, red-sports-car wearing alphas with identical attitudes and verbal-auto-play “conversational” styles. And then there’s the odd bebearded younger ones who think they’re too cool for the world and everything’s an ironic statement. Statistically even, there are far more idiots with voting rights than without.
Jeffro
@? Martin:
I think it’s silly to worry that Trump is going to win votes with that kind of obvious flip-flopping b.s., especially when his actual statement noted that he was for “leaving it to the states”, which even my 10-year-old knows is code for “doing nothing in Red states”.
Well, let me refine that a bit: sure he’ll win some votes, but he’ll lose twice as many with that kind of obvious flip-flopping b.s.
BruceFromOhio
@Rolling Along: You are just so cute! You are probably a Nice Guy, too. I wish you were here so I could tickle your little toesies!
@dedc79: Dammit! I thought for a moment … aw, shucks. /scuffs foot
different-church-lady
@Firebert: Good. Fuck those regulation-dodging “disruptors”.
D58826
@dmsilev: Bob in Portland change your name?
Rolling Along
@BruceFromOhio:
Again, I’m not a culture warrior myself. But Trumo is. This is his only hope: make it a referrendum on Third Wave Feminism.
scav
@Rolling Along: He’s being vetted?! So confirmation of where the superior chips are being installed!
Chyron HR
@Rolling Along:
Remember the mountains of opposition research you repeatedly insisted Jeb was going to use to destroy Trump? Obviously that’s still out there, waiting for someone who (unlike your hero Jeb) isn’t a sniveling coward to use it. The end.
redshirt
@Rolling Along:When you get banned again, and then come back again with a new email address and name, choose a name that includes a really common word, something like “Alpha Trump”. That way when you get banned once more, no one on the site will be able to use the words “Alpha Trump” again.
Gin & Tonic
@Rolling Along: It’s too early in the day to be that drunk.
dmsilev
@Rolling Along: Sure, sure, you’re not an MRA nitwit. It’s a complete coincidence that you’ve spent this entire thread babbling about Alphas and Betas and reacting to the word ‘feminism’ as if you’re Dick Cheney just after getting splashed by a flask of holy water.
different-church-lady
@Rolling Along: Oh, hey, that’s gotta be at least 4000 votes right there!
Rolling Along
@Chyron HR:
I think at the end of the day Jeb was just too nice and decent of a man to destroy Trump like he could have. He just didn’t have the balls his father and brother did to use the Atwater playbook.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
Bugs always did look good in a dress.
Rolling Along
@dmsilev:
It’s the Culture War strategy! I’m using their lingo as an example.
Most sane people are turned off by Tumblr style feminism. Do you use the term “micro aggression” unironically and drive Lesbaru?
D58826
@Rolling Along: lot of knot holes in those wooden cabinets
? Martin
@Rolling Along:
No they won’t. They cancelled their big public outing when women threatened to show up with cameras (not guns, cameras). They’re cowards and whiners, unable to follow through on anything. Here’s a clue – every or nearly every abortion provider that was killed was male. Men are willing to put their lives on the line for women rights, and the MRA movement can’t even bother to assemble at the mall out of fear. The few thousand gamergaters can win their twitter war, but they are less than irrelevant in a national election that demands real organization and effort.
different-church-lady
@Rolling Along:
If you do that by making sure no woman will vote for Trump, then he still loses.
eclare
@BruceFromOhio: Ferret Circus! Hehehe…
trollhattan
@Firebert:
Wow, and possibly Houston next? Will be interesting to watch. How long before the statehouse declares it illegal for cities to pass these ordinances? (Being anti-bidnez and all.)
Tim C.
@? Martin: I’ve read worse fan-fiction. Though fan-fiction is notoriously bad.
D58826
@Rolling Along: you are aware that women are the majority of the electorate? If the vote were as simple as male vs female all things being equal, Hillary will be putting her high heels up on the Oval Office desk in Jan. 2017.
Rolling Along
@different-church-lady:
Married women vote Republican overwhelmingly. It’s childless feminist harpies and welfare dependent single moms who want food stamps for their bastard children that vote Dem.
Mnemosyne
@Rolling Along:
Sure, but a landslide for whom?
“Alpha male” antics only impress other white guys. The people who’ve been on the sharp end of those antics find them much less adorable than you do, and we outnumber you.
Rolling Along
@D58826:
Read below. Married women don’t like Third Wave feminism or Dems either.
Rolling Along
@Mnemosyne:
Hispanic and black men are notoriously anti-feminist. If we remake the GOP as the Alpha party and Democrsts as the soft/feminine mommy party we may get some crossover votes!
? Martin
@Jeffro: You’re trying to look at it through a policy lens. There’s no policy there – just a promise without any described means to get there. Most voters don’t look at policy because they don’t understand it, they look at whether the goals align with their personal interests and whether they feel they can trust the person or not. Trump will probably lose on the trust angle, but he’s going to promise them everything they want. Look at how he frames it:
“People have to get more”. He’s breaking out entirely from the minimum wage debate. He’ll get people more without touching the minimum wage. How? Pff – don’t worry about that, he just will. He gets to sidestep the established lines regarding minimum wage, acknowledge what all voters agree on ‘getting more’. Everyone can read into it what they want – some will read minimum wage, others lower taxes, etc. It expands the number of voters it appeals to – its vague and happy enough that everyone will agree with it, and only some people will realize that it’s completely empty. It’s straight up charlatanism, but remember, Bush got elected too.
I don’t think Trump will win, but this shit is dangerous and the media insistent on playing horserace will never bother to mention that one of the horses isn’t even a horse.
Davis X. Machina
Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from a colossal dick-measuring contest.,,,
David Lloyd-Jones
Stabenow-Warren ’24.
Senator Debbie in the White House will turn the farm vote Democratic for a generation.
-dlj.
Chyron HR
@Rolling Along:
Gosh, I sure hope Donald Trump doesn’t start ranting about “childless feminist harpies and welfare dependent single moms who want food stamps for their bastard children” in front of a live mic. That would be terrible.
dmsilev
@Rolling Along:
Yup. MRA. Don’t bother denying it; you’ll feel better about yourself if you’re honest about what you are.
yellowdog
@Rolling Along: What makes you think that? Is that your only hope of getting laid?
Davebo
@Rolling Along:
Because nothing says Alpha Male like Rod Dreher!
trollhattan
@Rolling Along:
Go upstairs, kiss mom and ask her again how daddy “fell” into that cement mixer.
BruceFromOhio
Love it! Can’t wait to fire up the ActBlue pages and chip some coin to the Warren Bloc. This is the first election cycle both TeensFromOhio can vote. While they both went for Senator Sanders in the primary, the FromOhio clan is fired up to vote for the first Madame President, and send Portman packing to boot. From the long, cold drought of the Bush-war era, it so excellent to see such strong women in force for progressive political change. Makes for a very splendid thought on this beautiful Mother’s Day.
gindy51
@Rolling Along: He can’t, he’s a beta male at best. An alpha does not need to attack like a fucking child and throw tantrums every time something happens he doesn’t like. An alpha male IS, a beta male is one who tries too hard to be alpha and that is Trump.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
great idea
D58826
@Rolling Along: But they like Trump even less.
I was going to say that peace and harmony seem be breaking out in BJ world, at least for a day, then you arrived. Well can’t have everything.
Ferd of the Nort
@Rolling Along: Ahhhhh yes. The Alphalpha males routine. Smart like bull and full of processed grass.
I laugh at your vituperative incompetence.
Bex
@Rolling Along: Great! He was way overdue for his shots.
ellie
@Rolling Along: Lesbaru? Do you mean Subaru? Here in Colorado the Subaru is practically the state car. Both men and women drive them. You really need to try harder dear.
BruceFromOhio
@Ferd of the Nort:
At first glance this read as vituperative incontinence, which seems to be kind of the same thing in this instance.
The Thin Black Duke
@? Martin: I understand where you’re coming from, but I really don’t think Trump’s clumsy attempt at pivoting to the center is going to fool anybody other than his delusional followers who already have a fragile relationship with reality anyway. I can already see Clinton’s TV ads interviewing the undocumented workers at Trump’s hotels. They’re not getting 15 dollars an hour, I bet.
rikyrah
@Rolling Along:
Him not agreeing to the debates will be the equivalent of the McCain”let us suspend our campaign because of the economic crisis”.
Please proceed, Donald.
Mnemosyne
@dmsilev:
I can tell I’m going to need to find the link to this and keep it handy, but I read a long and fascinating web series by a guy who came to realize that the entire PUA shtick is designed to attract women with severe cluster B personality disorders — narcissists, histrionics, borderline personalities. When you realize that and then look at Trump, you can see why all of the codependents like RtR are suddenly glomming onto him. Trump reminds them of their abusive daddy or mommy whose love they’re never going to be able to win.
Tim C.
Also… is there any hard measurement of traditional non-voters registering to vote for trump? Not Republicans who normally skip the primaries and vote in the general; not “independents” who simply find the GOP label toxic but always vote for Republicans in the general either. I mean actual new voters who catch the Trumpmentum. Anecdotes and personal experience don’t count. BS lunatics with a blog and no sources don’t count. Statistics and surveys from outfits with a record of being correct.
The culture wars have been turned up to 11 on Fox and other outlets. That might have even made the difference in 2004, but that was 12 years ago now. That block of votes exists, but they aren’t new voters, they are the same old GOP base.
Finally didn’t right to rise used to work for this guy?
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/graham-i-cannot-good-conscience-support-donald-trump-n569511
Was Jeb a “Beta Male” all along and you just couldn’t tell?
Rolling Along
Reporter:”Governor LePage, you’ve been called a sexist and a homophobe!’what’s your response to the accusation?”
LePage: “tell them to kiss my ass and go to hell”
Love to see the reaction of PC liberals to somebody that confronts them with a no nonsense attitude instead of groveling and apologizing.
Iowa Old Lady
I love reading blanket statements than include me:
Old? Check
Straight? Check
White? Check
Married? Check
Drive a Subaru? Check
Feminist? Check
Voting Democratic? Since 1968
scav
@gindy51: The hair screams insecure — it just can’t be heard over the similar tells coming out of his mouth and twitter feed.
BruceFromOhio
Thanks again for this post, AL, I’ll be grinning every time I think about it.
Now off to attack the weeds and plant some tomatoes.
Happy Mother’s Day!
Brachiator
Right now, the idea that the Trump candidacy will lead to a massive anti Trump counter insurgency is speculative fantasy without any data to support it. Even the fear of some Republican candidates that Trump’s presence at the top of the ticket is just that, fear unsupported by any indication that this represents widespread voter sentiment.
Trump is the wildest of wild cards, but voters and the GOP have plenty of time to absorb and adjust for this. Pundits, on the other hand, are going nuts and are also furiously trying to make up for guessing so wrong about the Trump ascendency.
Warren’s proposals are fascinating, but are weak to the extent that they are not connected to s strong plan to create or expand good paying jobs. Republican promises may be false or oversold, but they connect more viscerally with the average voter.
Mnemosyne
@Rolling Along:
I strongly encourage you to pursue that group, particularly with complaints about unmarried mothers who want food stamps for their bastard children. Because, as we all know, there’s nothing African-American and Hispanic men admire more than attacks on their mothers.
rikyrah
@Rolling Along:
Whew. What a Clown Car cabinet
dmsilev
@Iowa Old Lady:
Are you sure? I have it on good authority in this very thread that those two line items are contradictory.
Germy
@MattF:
Mitch Hedberg: “I think Pringles’ initial intention was to make tennis balls, but on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. And Pringles is a laid-back company — they said, ‘Fuck it. Cut ’em up.”
Emma
@Rolling Along: If he’s an Alpha male I’m the Alpha Prime. He’s a whiny daddy’s boy who has surrounded himself with yes men and kicks up a fuss whenever reality smacks him in the ass. President Obama pwns his tail already.
Iowa Old Lady
@dmsilev: I am apparently a bundle of contradictions.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
There’s plenty of data to support it. Go look at how Trump is polling among African-Americans, Latinos, Asian-Americans, and white women. Tell me which of those groups you think is going to be won over by Trump between now and November.
ETA: Also, no insurgency is needed, just the same numbers Obama got in 2008 and 2012.
Germy
@scav:
But here’s the alternative:
https://twitter.com/xeni/status/729048354236338176/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Germy
@Rolling Along: He’s weak. He should have said “kiss my white ass” instead. Why is he so PC?
Tim C.
@Emma: Yeah… a synonym for Alpha Male is usually, “Blow-hard loser who peaked during his senior year in High School”
Miss Bianca
@ellie: I think Subaru *is* the state car, actually. No “practically” about it.
Ferd of the Nort
@BruceFromOhio: welp
His arguments are tripe. And he is always posting. It could be irritable bowel disease.
Mnemosyne
@Iowa Old Lady:
I apparently am merely middle-aged at 47, but otherwise I also fit your checklist to a tee. Ruckus can even give confirmation that I am a Subaru owner since he’s seen it!
Iowa Old Lady
@Mnemosyne: For handling snow, there’s nothing like it.
MomSense
@ellie:
Same here.
rk
@Rolling Along:
I had no idea that a racist halfwit, undisciplined, quick to anger orange haired baboon is an alpha male? Your understanding is sadly limited.
Enough about your mother.
Baud
Subaru is the new Volvo.
Dan
@Brachiator:
no, it’s based on polling and the fact that voters already know HRC and Trump, so this year’s polls are more indicative than standard election year polls at this point in time. It’s also based on record-breaking Latino registration this year – a group where Trump is underwater in approval by close to 70%.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mnemosyne: Bottom line, the only way the GOP is going to win in November is if they make it impossible for everybody except white males to vote. That’s what our side has to worry about.
schrodinger's cat
@Rolling Along: Don’t know where you live but every other person in New England drives a Subaru. Straight, gay and every one in between.
Davis X. Machina
@Baud: There are new Volvos? You must mean the 850 wagon… most of the old 240’s have gone to the boneyard.
schrodinger's cat
@Baud: They are both practical, good in winter and somewhat plain to look at. Also too reliable.
D58826
@Rolling Along: yep and the KKK was pretty straight forward around the old lynching tree.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
“Henceforth, all history textbooks will explain how Joseph used the pyramids for grain storage!”
dedc79
@Brachiator:
Maria Liasson, is that you? :
I expect to hear nonsense like this on NPR, or to read it over on Slate. But not here.
Mnemosyne
@The Thin Black Duke:
Agreed. I have to look at my budget and see how much I can send to Vote Riders between now and November, but if folks know of other orgs doing the same work, I’ll be happy to throw a little cash their way as well.
Bob In Portland
Don’t read TomDispatch.
schrodinger's cat
Without his money would be an Omega male based only on his looks and intellect.
Rolling Along
.
From Reddit. Get ready for a Red Pill style campaign. It’s Trump’s only hope.
schrodinger's cat
@dedc79: Brachiator is our version of the Slate, has always been. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Ferd of the Nort
@Tim C.:
Now they are guys focused on peaking at other’s genitalia and monitoring washroom use.
SiubhanDuinne
@Rolling Along:
And not a female in the lot. Franklin D. Roosevelt’s cabinet was more diverse. Tell us again how much Drumpf connects with women. Tell us again why women anywhere should or would vote for him.
Oh, and “Team of Rivals”? I must have missed all the Democratic names on that list.
Mike J
@schrodinger’s cat: Nothing wrong with Slate? Not *that’s* a slatepitch.
Rolling Along
@SiubhanDuinne:
Competence>diversity
Rolling Along
@SiubhanDuinne:
Jim Webb could be put in charge of Veteran’s Affairs.
Rolling Along
Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn would be another intriguing choice for VP
ThresherK (GPad)
@Rolling Along: Gawd, that’s enough rope for you, what you consider a “policy wonk”.
Stick to getting your toadie crap wrong.
Mnemosyne
@Rolling Along:
Stop making my mouth water, willya?
Keith G
I see that Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne are getting a divorce.
I guess they no longer understand one another.
Brachiator
@Rolling Along:
I would absolutely love to see the GOP try to exploit this sentiment. Spend a lot of SuperPAC money on ads and maybe even events targeting black and Latino men.
I guarantee you that it will be money thrown down a rathole.
In 2008, I heard a lot of commentary from a wide spectrum of talk radio hosts that no white people would vote for Obama, apart from a very small core of guilty white liberals. Oddly enough you heard this not only on political shows but on sports radio shows targeted to youngish white men.
The thing that you are hearing now is that no real man would ever vote for a woman and especially not Hillary. This is the projection of frightened white men.
You don’t hear any of this on black radio stations. And on Spanish language stations what you hear loud and clear is a deep hatred of Trump. Not any fear or disdain of Clinton.
Bess
@Rolling Along:
Following that post I think it’s time we quit thinking of R2R as a troll, but as the actor who has self-appointed themselves the village idiot.
No one could create that mess of a list based on a belief that it makes sense. It’s got to be a poor quality job of character creation. A theatrical fail….
The Thin Black Duke
O.K., now I know that Rolling Rockhead is a spoof.
Rolling Along
We have to make sure we get the campaign props right:
Cigars, , heavy metal music, red meat, motorcycles, whiskey and guns. Make thenconvention look like a Ted Nugent concert. Have it practically ooze masculinity while the Democrats act their role as the Mommy Party.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@The Thin Black Duke: yeah but one of the best Flintstones recurring characters
ETA: christ, I’m old
The Thin Black Duke
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I bet you watched Jonny Quest on Friday nights, too.
WaterGirl
@Baud:
Damn! Why does it never seem like a good time to tell my volvo/vulva/uvula story?
Brachiator
@schrodinger’s cat:
I don’t think I have ever paid much attention to Slate or Salon or NPR, especially when they talk about the economy.
But the old James Carville warning, “it’s the economy, stupid,” still applies. I don’t see that Warren’s proposals reflect that focus.
SiubhanDuinne
@Rolling Along:
@Rolling Along:
First you write:
And then you write:
There is no way you can reconcile these two assertions.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
I have to admit, it always makes me a little sad when long-term couples break up. Though Jack and Kellie seem to have turned out better than anyone predicted while the show was on.
WaterGirl
@schrodinger’s cat: Okay, so I read this immediately after I posted my comment at #236, and laughed out loud.
It reads a whole different way if you aren’t thinking of the car.
WaterGirl
This guy must be DougJ – it’s just not possible for a real human being to actually be this much of a parody. Right?
Brachiator
@Rolling Along:
I love this. I absolutely love this.
Especially the hot girls part.
It says so much about the Trump Delusion.
And if this is parody it is comedy gold.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Throw in a vuvuzela and you’ve got the makings of an epic story.
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
The thing that makes me think RtR is a freelance spoof and not DougJ is that he occasionally gets himself banhammered and vanishes for a few months before re-appearing. It could all be an elaborate ruse, though.
Villago Delenda Est
I think Liz erred with her tweet about Scott Brown’s attacks on her family being not only ineffective, but actually giving her a boost.
Oh, wait. The Donald is too fucking narcissistic and mean to grok that such attacks will backfire. So it doesn’t matter if Liz tells him they will…he’ll do it anyways out of dumber than a bone spite.
Cermet
So, after getting up early, I fed the dog, then went out and cut the lawn (finally, well over a foot high, ugh), then, of course, raking up all those cuttings; next on the over due list – changing the car’s oil & filter; also, removing a tire and finding/repairing a leak (picked up a nail); next, defrosting the down stairs freezer; finally chore for Sunday, cleaning the aquarium and its special algae filter (best invention ever for tropical fish) – I can sit down and read Balloon-juice. Not as interesting as I thought – same old Sanders stuff. At least Warren stuff is better.
Cermet
Moderation for discussing my boring morning routine! This place is going down hill fast (LOL.) tRump must have bought the server …
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Warren isn’t on the ballot, not even for her own seat. This is mostly about 1) party building with people who are already Dems and very interested in her proposals; 2) her trolling Donald Trump, which she’s very good at, and she gets media attention, which gets under his skin even more, and then makes himself look even more boorish and erratic.
and even in ’92, Carville’s line was reductive. Anita Hill was still fresh in people’s mind and I don’t think the USSC has been such a prominent issue for Dems since– to my quadrennial bewilderment. And conservatives were profoundly un-enthused by Poppy Bush. I remember Mona Charen saying their campaign slogan should have been “only four more years”
Cermet
Am I flag or something? This is beyond silly – everything is moderated?
Rolling Along
@Brachiator:
We can market Trump like beer: vote for Trump, you’ll get hot girls, vote for Hillary and you’re a beta loser.
Again: Red Pill campaign.
Party of V8 muscle cars and gas guzzling SUVs vs the Party of the Prius and wimpy electric cars.
Mary
@Mnemosyne: What’s interesting is that, in my experience, women willing to sleep with PUAs typically have as much respect for the men they sleep with as those men have for them.
redshirt
@Mnemosyne: Are you serious? Do you think that might be DougJ?
Jeez. I’m assuming most of you are sincerely engaging the obvious troll out of sport, but now I’m not so sure.
Do you all know what a troll is? What a troll wants?
Go ahead, give it to him! I’m sure your finely worded response will make him see the error of his ways.
Villago Delenda Est
OK, why is it that when I refresh BJ in Firefox (latest and greatest version, running on Win 10), the formatting often changes?
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: We misunderestimate DougJ at our own peril! :-)
(editor’s note: thank goodness the spell checker does not recognize that as a word!)
Uncle Cosmo
@rikyrah: #TeamOfWeevils
#TeamOfGerbils
#TeamOfJackals
FlyingToaster
@Rolling Along: Daddy party vs Mommy party, eh?
You don’t know demographics from your left nut, do you?
The people who will be offended by this tactic, and show up to vote in a Presidential election year:
Women: like noted above, Clinton will draw at least 55% of women; it’ll likely be 55% of white women and 90% percent of black, asian and hispanic women. More women are registered than men; more women show up to vote.
Men: I’d suspect that he’ll get about 45% of men; say 60% of white men and 20% or so of everyone else.
What’s a bigger tell this cycle seems to be age; 65+ voters go heavy majority for Trump; 64- go the other way — and bigger — for Democrats in general, and any D over any R in particular. So it’s down to GOTV; there are more registered voters under age 65 than over, and if we show up (with the help of groups like VoteRiders), we blow it out of the water.
WaterGirl
@redshirt: Do you actually think this guy is a real person? Geez, I hope not. That would be terribly sad.
I do not have the “it’s fun to play with the trolls gene”.
Renie
@WaterGirl: Question on prior thread rain chains. Is yours connected to the house gutters or free standing?
Tim C.
@Brachiator: Yeah…. I love it when our satire gets lapped by their reality. Pretty much the 2016 theme for the GOP.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: also, and how could I forget? the year of the Two Pats
different-church-lady
@Rolling Along: Trimp is so doomed.
Uncle Cosmo
@Bob In Portland: Still haven’t been hit by a bus, I gather. More’s the pity.
Brachiator
@Villago Delenda Est: It doesn’t even make sense for Trump to attack Warren. It is nothing more than a distraction.
But Trump is all instinct and reaction. Not sense. He can’t help himself.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Firebert: Excellent news. Here’s hoping the folks don’t let down their guard. The MotU people behind the “new gig economy” (aka no job security, no known and stable work schedule, no stable income, etc.) aren’t going to give up.
Cheers,
Scott.
trollhattan
@Rolling Along:
Suburban vs. Tesla S? I’m so taking that action.
Quiz: Which is nicknamed the MAV–Mormon Assault Vehicle?
Ironic the LDS will have to steer the faithful away from the Republican nominee.
Bob In Portland
Julián Castro. He’s been selling off foreclosed homes to the big banks. He’ll make a great bag man for Hillary if Rahm is too damaged.
redshirt
@WaterGirl: It’s a troll and every person sincerely replying to him is giving him exactly what he wants.
But please, continue.
Dog Dawg Damn
@Rolling Along: I view the election similarly, although correctly.
Trump is the blow-hard boss everyone hates. Clinton is the hard worker that actually keeps the company afloat. Trump is the man who doesn’t deserve what he’s been given but acts like he’s automatically smarter than everyone else just because his name is on the sign. Clinton is the worker who keeps her head down and does the work of learning how the business operates.
There are a whole lot more people who hate that boss and sympathize with that worker than there are asshole bosses in the world.
Why don’t you take the beta / alpha crap back to Red Pill and your fantasy gorilla harem where it belongs. In the real world, there are no alphas and betas, just the assholes and everyone else.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@Bob In Portland: Okay, thanks, we won’t.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Scene: A house on a La Jolla bluff overlooking the Pacific
Willard: a tall handsome man in his late sixties, dead eyes, fixed smile, shoulders you could land a plane on, affect of a tranquilized game show host: “I say, Bill old man, are you heading into a tunnel, I can’t hea–” presses ‘end call’ button, puts phone under couch cushion. With a glassy-eyed stare suggesting something like moderately joyous anticipation, walks off to ride up and down in his car elevator.
Mnemosyne
@redshirt:
I’m on the other side — I’m pretty sure the troll is not DougJ. But he’s sure fun to mock.
Punchy
@Mnemosyne: Ozzie’s dead in the next 12 months. No way he survives the booze and drugs if his wife aint there to monitor it. He’s an O.D. waiting to happen.
Bob In Portland
@Uncle Cosmo:
Ah, what a wonderful group. You can wish someone to die because he has a different world view than you. A worldview you can’t even get your head around. Really sweet guy. The amazing level of hate generated to get a warmongering friend of Wall Street elected is truly notable.
Do you push old ladies into traffic?
The Thin Black Duke
@Dog Dawg Damn: And DDD drops the mic.
Dog Dawg Damn
Women are going for Clinton in epic proportions. The church ladies and schoolmarms that voted for Romney are aghast that such a creature could possibly be the President. I don’t see this ending in anything but a Clinton landslide.
trollhattan
@Bob In Portland:
Works for me, comrade.
The Thin Black Duke
@Punchy: Which is probably why Sharon is leaving. She’s tired.
Eric U.
does RtR really fit with Poe’s law? Seems more attuned to the Republican conventional wisdom, not particularly conservative
Dog Dawg Damn
@The Thin Black Duke: sometimes you have to leave the Vaseline at home.
WaterGirl
@Renie: Just saw your question on the other thread and answered it there.
trollhattan
@Bob In Portland:
Depends, do you ever wear a dress and wig in public?
different-church-lady
@Bob In Portland:
I don’t wish you to die because you have a different worldview.
I wish you to die because you are an insufferable, relentless, race-baiting prick.
WaterGirl
@redshirt: I didn’t reply to him! But I did comment on him, so there’s that. Bad me.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Chyron HR: Donkey Hotay has collected a whole bunch of Trump’s statements. I saw them on Drum’s blog.
e.g.
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
different-church-lady
@Dog Dawg Damn: RtR isn’t exactly here for the hunting.
Bob In Portland
@trollhattan:
Our course it does. The talk here about minorities has all been lies. Power is truth for you guys. You will let the working class be crushed and then wonder what the commotion is. Ignorant twits.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: He has to. He’s a very important political dissident and THEY are always watching him. He’s had to become a master of disguise.
WaterGirl
Slow day at BJ. Sniping with BIP and playing with trolls. New thread, please!
cleek
dammn, y’all loves you some troll.
trollhattan
@cleek:
I blame the 4th espresso.
scav
@trollhattan: There’s a though! Off to start water for more coffee.
WaterGirl
Whose week is it to hold onto the flare gun? We need to send a distress signal – new thread needed stat.
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
You reinforce my point. Warren here is preaching to the comfortable and the already converted.
The Democrats first priority if they keep the presidency is the economy. And they have to figure out how to govern in the face of continuing GOP obstructionism.
Party building is insider stuff that is irrelevant to the average citizen.
The trolling of Trump is fun and obviously gets under his skin. Let’s see if it becomes more than a diverting distraction.
The Supreme Court is important, but it is also more of a big deal for political wonks than for most people. But I would argue that the choke hold that the GOP put on Obama judicial appointments is just as critical, perhaps even more so than the Supreme Court, but you can’t make this into a big campaign issue.
I don’t agree with Bernie Sanders’ solutions, but he understands how important it is to pitch the Democratic Party message to working people and to their concerns about economic uncertainty. You can build from there.
Carville’s warning may be reductive but it is effective.
WaterGirl
@Renie: I posted another comment in that thread with the place where i ended up buying mine, in case that’s of some help to you.
Ferd of the Nort
@Rolling Along:
I AGREE! Do that please.
OTOH we can look at the roads and see how many of those gas guzzlers there are VS the number of sensible cars. Dumbass penile projections are just not that popular.
Metaphor fail.
Tyro
@Rolling Along: We can market Trump like beer: vote for Trump, you’ll get hot girls, vote for Hillary and you’re a beta loser.
The reason that Budweiser and other mass-produced pilsners and lagers succeed is because the instant you pop the tab on that can of beer, you know EXACTLY what you’re going to get. That’s why Hillary succeeds again and again: because she’s a known quantity who people know they can rely on. Trump can’t compete with that.
dedc79
@Brachiator: This might all be good advice if you were right about who Warren is, what she stands for and what she’s done. But instead you’re ignoring all that and focusing on a tweet. A single, @#%#ing tweet.
Cacti
Trump is Putin’s favorite candidate.
Boob in Putinland is all in for his employer’s choice for POTUS.
Smiling Mortician
@dedc79:
As always, I’m late to the party, but I think the tell was Rick Scott for “Health and human a services.”
Brachiator
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
What a tool. He totally downplays the advantage of having a rich daddy.
This is also insidious. Trump offers a backhanded compliment while playing to white resentment over supposed advantages that they might think that black people have over white people.
And I also will not forget how Trump disparaged Obama’s educational achievement and quoted the conspiracy nonsense that Obama’s grades had been doctored or hidden.
Villago Delenda Est
@Brachiator: Carville’s warning was for Bill Clinton…to keep him focused.
What worked in 1992 may not be fully applicable to 2016.
Uncle Cosmo
@Boob In Putinland: Fuck you, you arrogant twit. You wouldn’t know “the working class” if it crept up behind you & kicked your richly-deserving flabby arse.
Villago Delenda Est
@Brachiator: Drumpf’s entire career has been doctored by unearned privilege, that is, having a rich daddy to “loan” him a cool million, and then inheriting the bulk of daddy’s fortune when the old man started pining for the fjords.
Without that, he’d be an assistant night manager at a White Castle somewhere in Queens.
dedc79
@Brachiator: Elizabeth Warren did this:
Basically every adult american has been forced to sign away the right to sue their mobile provider because of these clauses (upheld by the 5 conservatives on the supreme court, one of whom is no longer amongst the living, but has yet to be replaced for some reason.) Mobile providers will be less able to act with impunity with the threat of class actions hanging over their heads.
nutella
@rikyrah:
Palin on Ryan:
That is an amazing example of a sentence that says two completely different things at once. Is Ryan supposed to ‘remain neutral’, or is he supposed to ‘say who he will support’? Either way, he’s wrong, I guess.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Yes, she drives a Subaru. I have seen it with my own lying eyes. And I’ll even accept her claim to being 47 as in my experience most women are either 29 or over 60. On the other hand have only heard about this other person she lives with. Now I’m not saying, just throwing it out there.
Villago Delenda Est
@nutella: To add to the derp, Ryan has stated that he’s “not there yet” on unquestioning support for Drumpf. He hasn’t ruled it out, but he hasn’t pledged blind obedience to him, either. Which apparently is not good enough for our Sarah.
nutella
Another example, from the OP, of a sentence that contradicts itself:
So the voters like dumb, obnoxious attacks like tomahawk chops but hate dumb, obnoxious attacks like ‘Sen. Himbo’? Right.
Brachiator
@dedc79:
Actually,no. I like Warren, but I am less impressed with her than other people seem to be. This is probably heresy to some.
However, I am curious to see what Warren does in the future and I hope that she gets to kick some serious butt during a Clinton administration.
hueyplong
Giuliani = Noun, verb, 911
Bob in Portland = Copy, paste, bitterly sarcastic one-liner.
Really looking forward to the exponential increase in bile when Clinton clinches.
rk
@Brachiator:
It would take days to make a list of things which people will not forget about Trump. I was trying to think of one quality of Trump’s which is positive and I couldn’t come up with anything other than he hasn’t actually killed anyone. It’s like the universe generated him some uniquely disgusting cesspool.
scav
If the little blue pill isn’t enough for them to get it up for the Trumpster, needs must turn to the little red pill (better reality through pharmaceuticals). Being manly men, I’m sure they toss it back with a chaser of straight whiskey (carefully, so as not to disarrange their carefully acquired locks).
Ruckus
@Uncle Cosmo:
Buses are smarter, or at least smart enough not to run into him. I mean if you were a bus would you want that smeared all over your front?
trollhattan
@hueyplong:
How I wish the election were Tuesday.
Brachiator
@Villago Delenda Est:
Or it may be even more applicable. I think about the coal miner who approached Clinton in West Virginia. He didn’t ask about breaking up Wall Street or climate change. He didn’t ask about the future of the Democratic Party. He didn’t even ask her about her email server.
He asked about how he was supposed to get work in an industry that she seemed to want to kill.
Washington saved the financial industry. The Democrats want to save the environment. When are they going to save workers?
dedc79
@Brachiator: You’re right. We’re doomed. Happy?
I think you’re a Democrat. Why do you keep adopting Republican framing of everything?
You understand a Democratic candidate for West Virginia isn’t winning that state right? You understand we don’t need to win that state to win the election? You understand that coal mining and the burning of coal for power is horrible for the environment, for climate change, for human health? You understand that it is a good thing overall that coal is being replaced as a source of electricity in the united states? If the answers to all these questions are “yes” then what exactly is your point?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: if you loop back to Clinton’s original (and very politically maladroit) comment about putting coal miners out of business, it was in the context of discussing a very detailed jobs plan
http://www.msnbc.com/kate-snow/watch/clinton-apologizes-to-coal-country-678683715524
The Thin Black Duke
@Brachiator: Well, probably investing in this country’s infrastructure would be a good start if only the goddamned Republicans would get the fuck out of the way.
Renie
@WaterGirl: Yes I found your replies. I do have house gutters so will have to stroll around to find the best spot. Thanks for all the info!!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
just heard a recap of Trump flip-flopping on his own tax plan by saying ‘businesses are going to have to pay more, but we have a massive business tax cut’
Villago Delenda Est
The answer to that one is simple: You’ve run out of easy to get to coal, which is why Wyoming is the big coal state now, not one of the back East states.
The market can be a serious bitch, especially for extraction industries. This guy needs to focus on his bosses, who will toss him away like a used condom at the first opportunity.
Davebo
@Brachiator:
The fact is that the coal industry is horrible in almost every aspect. It’s extraction decimates the environment. There are a fraction of the jobs in the industry now because these days they extract the ore via lopping off hillsides instead of the traditional mining method. Burning it is obviously bad for the environment.
For some idiotic reason two coal fired electrical generation plants are being considered now for Nevada despite the fact that natural gas prices have been through the floor for years with no reason to believe they’ll rise and of course produces a fraction of the emissions generating the same power.
So yes, it sucks for coal workers in West Virginia. But you don’t have to be a Nobel prize winners to see it’s only going to get worse regardless of what Clinton or any other politician says in a speech.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I recall hearing Senator Obama’s “bittergate” recording and wondering how it was either inaccurate or controversial. It told me that he understood reality–a presidential quality I generally approve of.
Germy Shoemangler
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/04/the-virtual-candidate
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Brachiator: Here’s her plan for Appalachia:
And so forth.
She has good, realistic ideas. If her policies are enacted, they’ll do a lot of good.
Cheers,
Scott.
Benw
Trump’s gonna shove Hillary aside and seize the Presidency like the Titantic through the Arctic icebergs!
Baud
@Germy Shoemangler: You have far less control over your agenda as president than as senator.
trollhattan
@Davebo:
On top of screwing rooftop solar owners and flipping off Tesla, they’re building new coal plants? Jesus, Nevada must have legalized whorehouses everywhere.
So glad California divested their Reid1Gardner stake.
Germy Shoemangler
@Baud: Exactly.
The article goes deeper into all the behind-the-scenes things Warren’s been doing; the stuff that doesn’t excite the villagers and often goes unnoticed by bloggers and commenters.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
gogol's wife
Sent some money to Hillary today. Felt good.
gogol's wife
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I can’t wait for him to get on the campaign trail!
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
What’s stopping Sanders from tweeting and getting under Trump’s skin like Liz is? Nothing, because it’s all about him, sore losering. Thanks for playing Bernie, but you’re just grifting now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I have a theory, which is mine, and that theory, what it is, is that, according to my theory, Bernie Sanders is kind of an asshole.
Brachiator
@dedc79:
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
@The Thin Black Duke:
When a man is asking how he is supposed to feed his family, you have to offer more than the promise of job training and a welfare check.
And it is correct but insufficient to blame the Republicans.
And it is not just that Clinton will lose West Virginia and doesn’t need West Virginia. Voters in other states are paying attention to this.
And I’m not sure that Clinton should have to concede West Virginia. But that’s another post for another day.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Jeff Weaver just sent out this in an e-mail:
I don’t think Weaver knows what the word “exponential” means.
:-/
(emphasis in original)
Keep kicking your allies, Bernie.
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
scav
@gogol’s wife: To some extent, his being busy doing his job rather than campaigning, especially in this pig-hunted–mud-pit of a campaign might contribute to his ratings. I rather assume he’ll likely have a solid grasp of just how far to venture and balance the jobs.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: well, the only answer this man is going to accept is that not only are the mines kept open, but that they return to the less profitable, high-employment methods of coal mining. How is this going to happen?
Like you, if for different reasons, he is never going to accept any answer based in reality.
dedc79
@Brachiator: This is ridiculous. And I note you don’t offer any solutions yourself – you just criticize the proposals others have made.
You know what used to be a big industry? Whaling. Eventually the U.S. (and most of the rest of the world) realized that if we kept at it, there would be no whales. So we stopped. We signed treaties, we passed laws, etc… And as a result, and entire industry went away. A big one. And yes things changed in the regions where whaling was important, and it sucked for whalers, and for their families too. And it was still the right thing to do, and most people understood that.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He probably would also accept attacking Mexicans and black people. Hence, Trump.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@dedc79: Whaling is a very good example for another reason – it was an extraction industry for oil before petroleum became important.
And suffered boom-and-bust cycles.
Getting off coal (and fossil fuel oil) is inevitable. We have transitioned between different fuels several times in history. We know how to do it and we know how to do it smartly. We just have to have the will (and enough political support) to do it.
Cheers,
Scott.
aimai
@Brachiator: Because that was a warning to Clinton to stick to the basic issue which wins elections: if people are unhappy economically they will vote out the party in power. Right now, despite the hysteria and the concern longterm, people are doing better than they were at the start of Obama’s two terms. And, of course, Warren is focusing on the economic issues that affect the majority of voters, as she did with the CFPB.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: Yeah, Joe Sixpack wants a job, but he doesn’t want African-Americans or other people of color to have one, though. The Archie Bunkers in this country don’t like sharing. Don’t ask me why.
Brachiator
@dedc79: I had not seen the Mara Liaison story. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It is insufferable. Especially this part.
This is antithetical to anything that I wrote. People know why they are suffering. They don’t need a goddam politician or a pollster to explain anything to them.
They may want you to listen to them. They may want to know that you hear them and that you can help them.
And to hell with the NPR people living in their NPR bubble. Maybe they need to work on their origin story.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke:
Wait till someone tell these voters to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get a job. All of a sudden, such rhetoric will be deemed offensive.
jsrtheta
@Amaranthine RBG: Why? She’s cool, sure, but her experience so far doesn’t qualify her for president.
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: Didn’t Romney already do that in his disgusting “47%” speech? And lots of dumb white guys still voted for him anyway?
eemom
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
I find your attitudes refreshing. I am SO. FUCKING. SICK. of Bernout and his clueless acolytes.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke: IIRC, the 47% were the people voting for Obama no matter what. Dumb white guys correctly wouldn’t consider themselves within that category.
Brachiator
@aimai:
This does not mean that people are happy. It certainly does not mean that they have made up for their losses over the past decade and more. It does not mean that wage stagnation has been solved.
Why would any Democrat talk about income inequality if it did not accurately reflect voter concern?
Is this just some Berniebro delusion?
Baud
You know what jobs we need in America? New thread posters.
Miss Bianca
@Uncle Cosmo: Oh, there BiP goes, bringing class into it again...
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@eemom:
[[said in Olympia Dukakis’ voice]] if you don’t have anything good to say about Bernie Sanders, come sit next to me.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Rolling Along: As I noted yesterday; to most folk, “Alpha Male” == Asshole.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I had the impression that the “amendment king” stuff was from his time in the House. Let’s see:
So, only by very, very careful parsing of terms was Bernie “the amendment king”. What a surprise. :-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Eric U.
I ride my bike through a pennsylvania coal mine once a year. It’s a disaster, just scorched earth barren sort of place. The stream running through it is orange from the iron, which kills all life. But coal mining is dying because of gas, not because of liberals. There is no societal good in subsidizing coal, maybe we could hire those West Virginians cleaning up the mess they made.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Baud: Meh. It’s encouragement for us to TBogg more often.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who actually likes long-lasting threads better, himself.)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
when I saw that I figured you were gonna say “If you say another word about Wall St speeches, old man, I’m gonna kick ya till ya die”
Baud
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: They are a pain to scroll down on mobile.
Mike J
@Baud: America has the greatest thread posters in the world and we just need to get BIgfoot off their backs!
Snarkworth, short-fingered Bulgarian
@Rolling Along: LePage? OK, this is satire.
schrodinger's cat
@Mike J: Nothing wrong with Brachiator, he is just trying to keep his contrarian muscle in shape.
schrodinger's cat
@WaterGirl: Its sounds like Volvo and Subaru should get married!
trollhattan
@Eric U.: Mining and related industries are incredibly dirty, with toxic legacies lasting centuries. It’s been nearly two centuries since the California Gold Rush and a vast amount of the waste and contamination remains, barely contained much less cleaned up. The mercury alone poisons a huge swath of the state.
Leave what coal is left in the ground. Not as though it’s going anywhere.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Baud: True. But that’s more an issue with the problems with browsers (or web pages) on phones than the threads here, right? It seems like the phone version should automatically paginate rather than being eleventy-seven screens high. Dunno how one would go about doing that though…
Cheers,
Scott.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
When that man is working in a dying industry, lying to him that he’s going to be able to keep that job forever is just plain cruel, even if that’s what he wants to hear.
I do think that one of the major blind spots of both parties is that they don’t realize that most people are perfectly happy clocking in to a job every day. They don’t have to be the boss. They don’t have to constantly move up and achieve and be promoted. They’re happy just having a steady paycheck that allows them to support their families and whatever hobbies or interests they have outside of work. I agree that we need to be doing more to help those people, but I disagree that lying to them is helpful.
Brachiator
@Baud:
I saw the video clip of the man. He was respectful, even humble as he asked his question. I don’t know that he said that Trump was his man.
Why are you so quick to demonize him?
We might also ask what it says that Clinton so vehemently embraced these voters during the 2008 primary, but bygones.
Baud
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
One of the nice things about the site redesign is that the mobile page no longer automatically goes to the top when you refresh. The old site used to do that.
My phone browser is pretty quick, but it still takes a few swipes to get to the bottom of a long thread like this one.
Baud
@Brachiator: I didn’t see the clip. I’m basing my comment on statistical averages. I would love it if this guy voted for Clinton in November.
A Ghost To Most
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Your theories, which are yours, are intriguing, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter, which is also yours.
J R in WV
@Rolling Along:
In the real world, Republican delegates are elderly, obese couples. The men may smoke cigars, in private or on the porch, but not in the arena, and a few may still be allowed to drink whiskey.
Everything else on your list would repel 98% of the cast of characters in Cleveland. So great thinking, pass that idea to the Trump organizers. And take some more of those red pills, I hear they will rock your world!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: he said that he believes that God put the coal in the ground to provide for him and his family, and that he and his neighbors think they were chosen by God to be provided for by that coal. I’m thinking he’s a longshot get.
@A Ghost To Most: Happy to have you join our readership, just put a SASE in the glovebox of a mint condition 1963 Rolls Royce Silver Cloud and have the car delivered to….
A Ghost To Most
@Baud:
I hit the reply button on the first comment, it goes right to the bottom.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Sounds Bundyesque.
@A Ghost To Most: Good advice.
A Ghost To Most
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m having Roll E. Coyote and Boob in Putinland drive it out to you. I hope that works for you.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne: I ran across this.
This may not be a dying industry, but one that we are deliberately killing, even if for good reasons.
Another poster noted a lot of policy detail including the New Market Tax Credit. It has been around since 2000. I wonder how many jobs it has brought to West Virginia?
But I agree with you that you want to be honest with a voter. But you also have to offer some hope.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@A Ghost To Most: I vaguely remember hearing that trick mentioned before. Thanks for the reminder!
Cheers,
Scott.
different-church-lady
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: You know, I don’t see anything particularly wrong with that. Just typical fundraising mumbo jumbo.
But at this point Sanders has built up such a reservoir of ill will in my mind that I don’t really care if people continue kicking him for the little stuff.
? Martin
I think a number of you are seriously missing Brachiators point. Dems don’t need WV, and coal shouldn’t be preserved. But the answer for when a coal miner asks what is to become of them, the answer can’t be ‘we don’t need you to win this election’. That’s the answer the GOP has been giving minority voters since 1968, and now that the GOP needs minority voters, it’ll take a fucking miracle to win them back. And the GOP is hurt by non-minority voters like me that are sympathetic to the treatment of my fellow citizen. Some number of Pennsylvania voters will be sympathetic to the answer given to West Virginia voters, and Dems need Pennsylvania voters.
The answer to that coal miner needs to be “I’m sorry, but your industry is ending, and your job unfortunately will go with it. We will find you another job where you live, we will train you for it and we will make sure you can put food on your table until that job arrives. We will guarantee your pension and ensure you can retire with dignity, and we are the only people telling you the truth and stepping up to help. The industry isn’t going away due to Democratic or Republican policies, it’s going away because industry has found cheaper, safer ways to produce electricity. But Democrats care about you and will be there to help.”
Now, that’s not inconsistent with some Democratic policies, but it’s not the Democratic position. The Democratic position is, unfortunately, to not prioritize coal miners because Dems don’t need to win West Virginia. The Democrats need to come up with a major platform for job training and safety net. It’s all there in various way, but not as a cohesive platform and not as a tentpole. The next decade are going to see massive job shifts. Millions of Americans are going to lose their jobs due to increased automation and changing economic models (taxi to Uber, etc.). This is the desperation that is driving voters to back non-establishment candidates. Dems need to wake up and address it – make it a ‘working welfare’ program (with a better name) that guarantees job training, apprenticeship, education while providing a basic income until a new job is found (some combination of existing programs, unemployment insurance, and other things) but not as a patchwork of disconnected programs. And with that needs to be a program of federal incentives to attract employers to places where jobs are being lost, rather than relying on states to completely gut their budgets by fighting through tax breaks. The federal program should not be about adding jobs but of smoothing out employment when jobs are lost, so if California does attract a company from Texas, the feds will help Texas fill those jobs in (using some tax revenue from CA resident). Make this less cutthroat. States will still compete for attracting new and better jobs, but they won’t be undermining each other at the low-end.
dedc79
Oh, Ron
Bob in Portland
I’m guessing Armenia, but it could be Lithuania.
J R in WV
@Renie:
Usually if you take out a downspout, that would be the perfect spot for the rain chain.
They work hard to get the downspouts at the lowest point of the gutters, which is where the chain needs to be, or at least a low spot. You might need to do some work to keep splashage from water coming down the chain from hitting your siding or footers.
dedc79
@? Martin:
I guess you missed the part where someone pointed out Clinton’s plan, which is a version of what you’ve written above, and Brachiator said “You can’t tell them you’ll train them for new jobs.”
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Now you’re just being silly. Okay, sure coal is contributing to global climate change that will kill us all, but that doesn’t mean we should stop mining coal! At some point, the self-defense of the many has to kick in, even if some of the few don’t like it.
IMO, our infrastructure is in such terrible shape that we could easily employ Mr. Coal Miner and all of his friends and relatives in repairing and rebuilding it well into the foreseeable future, but unfortunately he is on the electoral side that would rather save $5 a year in taxes than have a good job in construction repairing the very roads he’s driving on. If you can figure out a way to convince that guy and his friends and relatives to get out of their own way and support the creation of jobs for themselves, you will be a political genius.
different-church-lady
@? Martin: The problem here is that the only politically acceptable answer to that guy is, “Here’s another job that pays just as well and doesn’t threaten your life, and here it is right now.” Anything short of that will be heard as unacceptable.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Brachiator: It looks like world coal consumption peaked in at 8.3B short tons in 2011 according to the EIA. Coal production was still increasing in 2012 (and far above consumption).
Coal is a dying industry. Huge reserves don’t help if people aren’t buying the stuff.
Cheers,
Scott.
Brachiator
@dedc79:
But I’m not the one running for president. Am I supposed to have all the answers?
And I decided that Bernie was not my guy because I didn’t think he had the right solutions to the country’s problems and that in the end I trust Clinton to be able to come up with answers even if she doesn’t have them all right now. And even if I don’t like some of her current answers.
This works for me. As always, your mileage may vary.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Also ignores the subsidized costs in the form of early deaths from atmospheric contamination by heavy metals and even radionuclides. Literally nothing about the industry is defensible.
dedc79
@Mnemosyne: And China, where coal is still king for a little while longer at least, has just a wee bit of an air quality problem on their hands….
A Ghost To Most
@Mnemosyne:
The nut of the problem.
The Thin Black Duke
@? Martin: Unfortunately, we can’t move forward to solve these problems because Republicans keep dragging all of us backwards and we can’t get rid of the Republicans who are in the way because they keep getting reelected.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Mnemosyne:
That’s the challenge, isn’t it?
Mnemosyne
@dedc79:
True story: my now-retired boss had to cancel a business trip to Beijing under doctor’s orders because he was afraid she would have a severe asthma attack. The people who did go brought masks with them, and a few additional ones as gifts for their hosts.
Bob in Portland
@Uncle Cosmo:
So all of you know what’s going to happen with a Clinton win. You all pretty much own the consequences of your clubhouse favorite. You can’t say you weren’t warned. I realize the bubble is strong here, and there’s no guarantee that even if she gets us into a nuclear exchange and you survive you won’t still be blaming the rest of the world.
By the way, Cosmo, have you ever talked to a professional about your violent fantasies. Here I am, someone you’ve never met, and in one thread you’ve wanted to beat me up and kill me.
There are still a few people who stop in here to comment who aren’t drunk on Clinton koolaid. So, really, your threats are merely a measurement of your anger that your invented reality is being threatened. Cheers.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
If you complain about other people’s solutions, you will eventually be asked what your solution is since you think you’re so smart. It’s easy to carp and complain, not so easy to provide constructive criticism.
different-church-lady
@Bob in Portland:
Yeah, well it’s pretty normal human psychology that assholes create those feelings in people.
Bob in Portland
@Mnemosyne: How about a national job program to rebuild the infrastructure?
Oh, never mind. That’s a socialist idea. We’ll just let the market handle it.
? Martin
@dedc79: Maybe I misread that, but you can’t just tell them that because A) nobody believes it, and B) the answer doesn’t address how you pay rent while you are retraining.
@different-church-lady: And part of it is to change that narrative, which is why it needs to not be a pile of disconnected programs, and instead be much more cohesive. Call it the ‘Dignity of Work Initiative’ or some fucking thing, and guarantee people some fraction of their old wage (scaled, so the less you made the closer to 100% you get), plus benefits, for say 5 years. If you find a $30K job after your $40K job, you pick up the remaining $10K or so from the feds until you have time to get promoted, etc. It deals with the problems of unemployment running out, addresses wholesale industry changes (which existing programs don’t really do – they are designed for elastic changes in labor needs, not transformations). Within this structure you start to build in notions like guaranteed minimum income, and single payer benefits.
So I don’t agree that any other answer is unacceptable. These people aren’t in complete denial. The coal jobs didn’t start going due to solar, they went with automation. Jobs peaked in 1979 and it’s been downhill from there. They know that. They know what’s coming. Be realistic about that. Add a component to the program that pays companies with workers in these industries to let them train before they get laid off. It’ll reduce the per-worker productivity which will get picked up by hiring more people within the industry – a temporary boost, and they all train for new careers while still pulling their paycheck. It’s not that hard to see which industries will be next. Why wait until people are gutted before training them? Why not do apprenticeship programs which puts that training on the job, so people can make that transition much more securely, etc.
J R in WV
@? Martin:
Well said, good thinking, both!
Thanks!
And there are a lot of job opportunities in cleaning up after mining ebbs away, IF there is money to fund that work. The same skills used in strip mining are used to reclaim the mess. If there is funding for the work.
A Ghost To Most
@Bob in Portland:
WaterGirl
@schrodinger’s cat: Is that legal? Why, that’s worse than all the gay people who want to marry their dogs?!?!??!!
Brachiator
@schrodinger’s cat:
Probably true to some extent. And I think that right now polls of likely voters indicate that the Democrats will win all needed electoral votes with either Clinton or Sanders at the top of the ticket. But likely voters have to be turned into actual voters. And you also need to reach out beyond the base and true believers.
The Republicans are not going to be complacent. And even though there are lots of differences, the rise of Trump reminds me of how Arnold Schwarzenegger shrugged off all the glib dismissals and got elected Govern-ator.
aimai
@Brachiator: EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT INCOME INEQUALITY. Literally everyone. This is not some well kept secret that Warren and Hillary are not talking about.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob in Portland: Both lost provinces of the Empire. How dare the natives throw off the yoke of the Motherland!
WaterGirl
@? Martin:
You’re hired! Are you able to take a leave of absence until, say, November?
Mnemosyne
@Bob in Portland:
You mean a jobs program like the one Obama proposed and the Republicans shot down? The one Hillary is also proposing?
I realize that your Republicrats! meme-filled head is so far up your ass that you have no idea what’s actually being proposed on the Democratic side, but you just end up making yourself look like a fool when you demand that Obama and Clinton propose things they already proposed months ago.
(Edited to add link.)
Villago Delenda Est
@A Ghost To Most: They don’t understand cause and effect, and they’ve never read The Wealth of Nations, which admittedly is a bit of a slog, but unless you read the whole thing, you get totally the wrong idea about where Smith was coming from.
aimai
@A Ghost To Most: The nut of the problem and the problem of the nuts. I asked this very question of the Trump Taxi Driver I got stuck talking to last night. I asked him if what he wanted was a massive infrastructure project to put people back to work. I mean–given what he was ranting that ought to have been something he had thought about and wanted. But the truth is that he simply doesn’t think in those terms: problem and solution. He thinks that those solutions are all equally far fetched or will be developed by a kind of person, a Trump kind of person. What happens in Washignton is so mysterious to him that he literally has no idea that there is a language for these things,a name for them, or a set of typical policy prescriptions that a person might use to address these problems.
WaterGirl
@? Martin: Hey, why make up a new name? How about calling it the CCC, Civilian Conservation Corps and let people build our infrastructure back up again? Even if you can’t do manual labor, there are office people needed for every big construction project.
Bob in Portland
@different-church-lady: So you’re a follower of Anton LeVay too?
You know, people can disagree and have civil conversations but the core of BJers here won’t tolerate that. How fucked up it must be to be so unsure of your beliefs that you feel the need to attack people who have opposing views.
The fact is that Hillary Clinton has been a reactionary all her life. When the rest of the Democratic Party was distancing itself from the Vietnam War H. Clinton was trying to volunteer to be a lawyer for a Marine reserve unit. She is telling us she wants a more muscular foreign policy. It won’t just be drones. Will she be satisfied with continuing the wars that Obama couldn’t end? Will she throw gasoline on Ukraine? Maybe something on the Russian border to the north, or the east?
Do you have any clue why money that could have been spent on the people’s welfare has been spent on making war over the last thirty years? Any clue at all?
If you were against Iraq and Afghanistan when Bush started them what oiled your patience when Obama continued them for another eight years? Do you still think that the women of Afghanistan will finally get equal rights if we kill a few more of them? Think we can straighten out Iraq? Are you happy with our role in Syria and Libya? Want more?
Of course, she’s on the take for the 1%. That’s why we keep having these wars. PNAC didn’t divide up Iraq for golf courses before Dubya’s wars. No, they divided up oil companies.
I see that some of the usual suspects are still fighting the idea of oil pipelines having anything to do with our wars. You just can’t get your lobes around the idea that our MIC is killing lots of people over there and letting a lot of people over here to die because of profits. And you folks are enablers. Must be pretty proud of yourselves.
Brachiator
@? Martin:
Good example. On a smaller scale, I remember when automation and new techniques were eliminating pressroom jobs at the LA Times. No one was laid off. There was internal retraining and reassignments. And generous benefits for those who accepted early retirement. Granted, the Times had the profits to absorb the costs, but they also had the will and the intelligence to come up with a program that did not just dump workers into the street.
different-church-lady
@Bob in Portland:
…and you’re not one of them.
Bob in Portland
@J R in WV: How about some taxes on the ultra-wealthy to rebuild our country?
Sorry, can’t do that. That would be socialist and America isn’t ready for a socialist. Well, those folks in West Virginia can just follow inner city entrepreneurs and start selling drugs. They’ll eventually create jobs for prison companies.
Life is good in the balloon.
aimai
@Bob in Portland: Its not becuse you have “different opinions” its that your opinions are so spectacularly awful and match your online persona.
Bob in Portland
@different-church-lady: How do you have a civil conversation with people who want to kick you ass or imagine you dying? You refuse to hear any criticism of Clinton inside the balloon. But there are more things to talk about. How about foreign policy? Nope, it’s off limits unless a Republican is doing it. How about the structure of the Democratic Party? No, that would reflect badly on your Golden Girl. Economics? Maybe as long as it doesn’t involve poor people getting a slice.
You people are rapidly becoming parodies of yourselves. And then, after four hundred comments someone repeats one of Sanders’ planks as if it’s a new idea, although you’re already making excuses that there won’t be enough money to pay for it.
You guys are just beautiful. And there are still fascists in Ukraine that Hillary’s pawn Nuland put in power.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Actually it’s hard enough to be able to carp and complain effectively. It’s like the difference between good film criticism and “this movie sucks.”
And I will happily point out a good plan when I see one.
Bob in Portland
@aimai: Give me a list of my disreputable opinions. It will be handy to refer to in the future.
different-church-lady
@Bob in Portland:
Me? I try to behave in a way that doesn’t engender those feeling towards me.
It’s really not hard. You ought to try it some time.
Or you can just continue with your usual, deliberate trolling. Personally I don’t give a shit which one you pick.
different-church-lady
@Bob in Portland: How about we start here?
henqiguai
@The Thin Black Duke(#235):
Damned straight! And many’s the time I wished Hadji would’a bitch-slapped that Quest brat back to some semblance of sense.
Bob in Portland
@Mnemosyne: If you’re talking about something he might have mentioned in 2009, you’ll have to refresh me. By March he’d pretty much folded to the banks. Maybe election night, as an aside to someone on the podium?
And you know what? Having Hillary in the White House will get us a lot of gauzy proposals that will die in Congress because Debbie Schultz will back all those awful DINOs who will either lose to Republicans or will be like Republicans. It’s not like it’s a new thing. This has been going on for awhile.
Meanwhile, let’s go do some nation-building.
A Ghost To Most
@aimai:
Perhaps Bobo will put his keen and penetrating intellect to it, and as usual,come to the wrong conclusion.
Bob in Portland
@different-church-lady: Great. Let’s start there. What was so offensive to you about talking about the redistribution of wealth? You think that things are okay here in the US the way things are?
different-church-lady
@Bob in Portland: Oblivious to your own hypocritical, unnecessary race baiting. Okay then, Spanky.
different-church-lady
It’s at this point in the program where we usually start lobbying for a TBogg.
Uncle Cosmo
@Boob in Putinland:
By all evidence, no one here wants to have anything approximating “a civil conversation” with a putinophilic Boob like you. Anyone with even rudimentary social skills would have realized that long ago & retreated in high dudgeon to the Russia Today comments section. But that lets you out. Purtroppo the worthy wielders of the site banhammer keep letting you back in instead of slamming you back into the outer dorkness. I presume they’re amused either by your bloviation or by the abuse it provokes.
D58826
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: This seems like a no brainer. Several threads last week talked about the winners and losers in trade deals. Trade deals aree complicatred and the winners and losers arte spread all over the country in both time and space, Coal is easy.
The industry has been in decline for a number of years now. The biggest coal company just went belly up. The reasons have nothing to do with the Kenyan socialist Nazi trying to destroy good Murkins. It is largely due to fracking and the fact that natural gas is cheaper and cleaner. The free market right wing echo chamber doesn’t want to admit to that.
So what to do (and I know the devil is in the details):
1. continue tightening up on the clean air standards
2. retire old coal burning plants as soon as practical
3. any new coal burning plant has to meet stringent EPA standards
4. continue fracking but tighten up on the environmental/safety standards
5. continue pushing green energy
6. as an aside develop a program to move the NE from fuel oil to gas/electric or green. It will take 25 years but get started now. Should have started in 1973 and would have been done by now.
7. develop programs to help the workers in the old energy economy to transition to the new energy economy:
a. job training programs, with stipends so the person can still feed and house his/her family
b. early retirement with full benefits for those 50 and up
c. relocation expenses fore people to follow the jobs or move closer to family or retirement areas
d. develop new well paying jobs in the local communities (at least with the dreaded Obamacare heath care is covered)
e. if necessary buy the property in the town. Years ago the government bought out all of the homeowners in Carbondale Pa because they could not contain the underground mine fire. Towns have been moved from flood prone flood plains to higher ground it being cheaper to move the town than keep rebuilding it.
W have the choice we can do it the smart way or the American way, i.e. being stupid and inflicting needless pain on people. From sad experience I know which option will happen, not necessarily because we actively chose to do it but just from doing nothing.
.
Bob in Portland
@A Ghost To Most: You haven’t advanced your argument.
By the way, where will Hillary’s next war be?
D58826
@different-church-lady: beat me to it
Mnemosyne
@Bob in Portland:
How about the one he proposed last year? But I realize that 2015 is just a distant memory to you while the events of 1945 are as vivid as though they happened yesterday.
Bob in Portland
@D58826: Something like this?
D58826
@Bob in Portland: I will break my rule of ignoring you just this once today
Without knowing any of the details, even if the war was immoral the reserve unit is still entitled to legal representation. Doesn’t the constitution say some thing about that, like the amendment between the 5th and 7th ;
The right has since been expanded to the state level
Ian
@Rolling Along:
This is why you lose. You’re voters die earlier.
D58826
@Bob in Portland: OH mercy I have to break the rule twice and what is worse agree with the what you posted. And whither that is Hillay’s idea or Bernie’s or Trumps or Cruz’s, it is still a good idea. And we did that once before. It was called the interstate highway system. not hard not rocket science. Just takes the will and tax money
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
Is it 600 comments to a TBogg unit? We’re starting to get close.
Bob in Portland
@D58826: Exactly.
D58826
@Mnemosyne: I heard it was 500
patroclus
I think Clinton’s infrastructure proposal should be emphasized more in her stump speech. As I understand it, it’s even more broad than Obama’s 2015 proposal or his Jobs Act, both of which the Republicans have blocked (and haven’t even given hearings on). This is one of the key differences between the parties and, as Martin and Brachiator pointed out above, seem to be the most likely replacement jobs for those in the coal industry that are going away. Trump wants to build a wall in the Big Bend National Park, Clinton wants to rebuild roads, bridges, water systems, schools, hospitals etc… This is a real issue which hits just about everyone. And I also wish she would emphasize mass transit more, which is especially important in big cities.
Mnemosyne
@D58826:
I also can’t help but wonder what counsel FOR reservist Marines would have been doing during the height of the Vietnam War. It seems counter-intuitive to assume it was all about sending them back to Vietnam as quickly as possible, but Bob has never been known for his logic, to say the least.
Jay C
@Bob in Portland:
Riiight…. So then you’re postulating that after an election which sends Hillary Clinton to the White House, and elects (on her coattails, one assumes) enough Democrats to flip control of the Senate, and (one might safely assume) eat away at the Republicans’ current huge majority in the House, the Senate (and the House Dem Minority) are all going to suddenly jump up to help block any/all of Madam President’s legislative initiatives, because DINOs?
Look, I don’t particularly like Debbie Waterstain-Shmutz as head of the DNC, or think that she has done/is doing all that great a job getting Democrats elected all across the country: but she supposedly occupies that position because she is one of Hillary Clinton’s creatures: it beggars credibility that she would even remotely imperil a Clinton 45 Administration’s legislative backup, if she could at all help it. Though it IS DWS: she might not be able to.
Bob in Portland
@D58826: Well, there is no connection between your concerns and Hillary’s failed career move. I mention her wanting to join the Marine reserves in the early seventies as a reflection of her lifelong militarism. Nothing more. As a lawyer in a Marine reserve unit the only thing she’d be doing is writing up charge letters for people going AWOL. Luckily, Watergate came along.
D58826
@Mnemosyne: Zoning issues Somebody slips and falls on the ice in the parking lot. Might not have had anything to do with the war. The way B-i-p phrased it it sounded like it was the reserve unit as opposed to individual marines. Could have been both I guess. I would think someone suing to avoid being sent to Vietnam would look to the ACLU, the radical lawyer William Kunsler or some such anti-war legal team for legal representation.
patroclus
In addition to infrastructure jobs, I think there should be a focus on green energy jobs. The California conservation bill, which is what Waxman’s federal climate change bill was all about, is all about renovating existing buildings to make them more climate friendly, installing photovoltaic cells on virtually every building, insulation retrofits and re-doing pipes and other building appliances to bring them all into the 21st century. Most everything here in Chicago was constructed decades ago and desperately needs new technology. I think that’s pretty much the case all round the country.
D58826
@Bob in Portland: Ah some additional details. I remember that she had some desire at some point in the 60’s for a military career but never cared much to get the details. As far as Watergate, she was a lawyer on the House Judiciary Committee’s Watergate investigation. She was part of the majority, i.e. democratic, team. And I’ll save you the trouble of responding – no the claim that she was fired is false. Snopes debunked that one in 2008.
D58826
Man that Obama really has things nailed
Bob in Portland
@Jay C: I don’t believe that Clinton will have especially long coattails. And if you’ve paid any attention to the people that DWS keeps backing you’d see the suit that Debbie the Tailor keeps sewing.
Hillary Clinton is the second least liked candidate to run for president. SECOND LEAST LIKED, at least since polling has existed. The top one would be Trump.
But here’s the difference. When Republicans don’t like their candidate they still vote. When Democrats don’t like their candidate they stay home. Who do you think will be more motivated to vote, Hillary haters or Trump haters? I’d say the former, since they’ve been practicing for 25 years. While everyone inside the bubble thinks that Hillary is going to sweep in a new age of Democrats, I don’t see it. First, the money from the DCCC is going to DINOs.
But we shall see.
Mnemosyne
@patroclus:
The Los Angeles area Apple Store I went into yesterday has a big brag on its front door saying they’re now running on 100 percent renewable energy, so it’s definitely a thing out here.
Bob in Portland
@D58826: Early seventies was her dream of signing up for a Marine reserve unit. I suspect she was triangulating for her future resume as opposed to any concerns about due process in military courts.
And yes, although some people wanted to fire her and she wasn’t.
patroclus
@Mnemosyne: True, but a good part of the reason for that is because California passed a statute greatly encouraging/requiring that – over the next decade or so, virtually all of California’s buildings are going to be like that. Not so (necessarily) in the rest of the country. Here in Chicago, Apple’s store is also the most high-tech building in the city. And there are some other newish buildings like that. But 95% or so of the remainder aren’t like that – and Illinois law doesn’t encourage/require that. Without an active government, it won’t happen quickly here, if at all.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@D58826: people are fuzzy on the details, but the consensus seems to be it was a test to see how the marines would respond to a woman who tried to enlist, which seems to me pretty plausible considering it was 1975 and she was still very close to her student activism, including anti-war organizing and protesting
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: 500.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
just doing my part for the Tbogg
D58826
@Bob in Portland: Well if she was triangulating for her future resume then her ability to see into the future explains why she made a killing in the pork bellies futures market.
As to ‘some people wanted her fired Snopes take it away:
D58826
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It always seemed like such a none event that to call it an ‘ant hill’ is an exaggeration.
Bob In Portland
@D58826: Look, I was never arguing that Clinton didn’t get fired from the Watergate Committee’s legal staff. I said someone want to fire her, and if you read your own quote you’ll see that for yourself.
Essentially, you are trying to build a straw man. I would love to read more about her role during Watergate, what she did, who she reported to, what enemies she made. But I haven’t and I’m not sure if there’s a source out there that’s particularly unbiased.
However, do you have anything on her days interning for the law firm in Oakland that was defending the Black Panthers? The FBI was putting people in all sorts of places under the COINTELPRO program, and someone of H. Clinton’s political nature would have fit in nicely in that program.
EthylEster
@Rolling Along: so you are dougJ.
Amaranthine RBG
@Uncle Cosmo:
Perhaps this would be a good time to post a video about online bullying?
Is that one where people read mean tweets to the sportscasters still available?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Bob in Portland: Hey Bob, Hillary tried to join the Marines in 1975; after she had graduated from law school in 1973 and AFTER the end of the Vietnam war(our direct involvement ended in 1973, it was OVER in April 1975).
Denali
Only 38 more comments til the magical 500!
Bob In Portland
@D58826: Actually, her career back in the late sixties, early seventies seems to show her jumping back and forth between conservative Democratic politics and radical left-wing things. Most people don’t do that. By the time you are about to leave college you pretty much have a course. In 1968 H. Clinton wrote a speech for soon-to-be Secretary of Defense Mel Laird about the Vietnam War. She attended both the Republican National Convention in Miami and the Democratic free-for-all in Chicago. It’s not cheap to attend a National Convention, although she may have stayed at her parents’ house to defray the expenses. Still, unusual. I’m not sure if I’ve ever heard of anyone attending both national conventions in the same year.
By 1970 Clinton spent considerable time monitoring a Black Panther trial in New Haven, ostensibly to monitor the trial for the ACLU for any civil rights violations.
In 1971 she interned during the summer at the Treuhaft law firm in Oakland, California, one of the most radical law firms in the country and at the time defending Black Panthers. Bill moved out with her and basically hung out in the Bay Area without employment. I would be curious as to what occupied his time too, but maybe it was just love and the two lived on Hillary’s intern salary.
Then she worked on the Democrats’ counsel during the Watergate hearings.
It was after this that Hillary decided she wanted to join the Marines to serve her country in 1975. There is some question as to whether or not she did actually attempt to join, although she did tell friends that she thinking about it at the time. It seems unlikely that she was turned down, as she claimed, because after the draft had ended the military needed all sorts of professionals who no longer volunteered for the reserves. It was also a curious time for her to want to serve her country by joining the military, considering that Bill was making inroads in Arkansas state politics. She may have invented the story to plump up her resume as a future politician.
Many of these peculiarities were raised during Clinton’s presidency from the far right, as well as the Mena airport controversy. I’ve always found it curious that Clinton should be abused about Mena when importing cocaine into the US would have been a federal crime, and when Asa Hutchinson at the time was the US attorney for that end of Arkansas. Hutchinson would end up being Dubya’s DEA head. Guess there’s nothing to look at here.
These were the years I was in college and in the army. Hillary’s path through those years rings exceedingly false. I wonder if her Zelig-like appearances were more part of her designated career arc than happenstance.
This is the kind of comment that makes all the BJers so unhappy about me.
Bob In Portland
@BillinGlendaleCA: Exactly. We don’t disagree. See my short summary of Hillary’s curious years above.
What is your point?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Denali: One less!
It’s been a pretty good day here. I managed to fix our gas furnace today (apparently the silicon nitride igniter failed (75 ohm resistance vs. 15 ohms for the new one)). Woot! The last time we had furnace problems about 5 years ago it cost about $1500 to fix (the “professional” apparently didn’t know what he was doing and went crazy replacing parts until he found the bad one…). :-/
I was nervous about Hillary early on, not wanting to relive the perpetual press screaming about “scandals” and the like. And, like JC, I freaked out when her State e-mail server stuff came out. But she’s got this.
All the almost all “scandals” that are talked about are from 20+ years ago and were talked to death then. Her speeches aren’t scandals. Her e-mails aren’t scandals. Her family foundaton isn’t a scandal. Everyone knows this – they just have nothing else to talk about. The NYTimes story about her talking to generals and so forth is just gossip with spin put on it.
I would get worried if people who worked with her ever day were whispering to the press about how impossible she was to work with. Or if she was behaving like Justin Bieber or Rob Ford. Or if she advocated impossible policies. But she’s not.
She’s got this. We need to make sure she has a big wave to ride.
Cheers,
Scott.
Bob In Portland
@Miss Bianca: Explain how you can talk about racism and still avoid classism.
Bob In Portland
@different-church-lady: Who did I race bait?
Bob In Portland
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I have a theory too about assholes.
Bob In Portland
@Amaranthine RBG: Nothing like death threats to encourage the free flow of opinions.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: It was after the Vietnam War by several years and it would have been highly unusual for the military to turn down a lawyer who’d served on the Watergate staff and was teaching criminal law.
As I said, this sounds more like her pumping up her patriot bona fides, although why she’d do that then is curious. She had followed Bill to Arkansas in 1974 and married him in 1975, so was she thinking of marrying Bill and going into the military? But why would she have to pump up her patriotic bona fides?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bob In Portland: Zing! good one, Bob! you think that up all by yourself?
J R in WV
@Bob in Portland:
Having never been President, Hillary Clinton has never had her own war… obviously.
But you never seem to notice that she is running for president for the very first time… evah!
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: Isn’t she running for prez for the second time? I recall something going on about eight years ago.
Bob In Portland
@J R in WV: Are you suggesting that every President is entitled to his or her own war? I guess she had to share all the fine work she did with Obama.
Bob In Portland
And speaking of Ukraine…
Did you know that there’s a Ukrainian Institute of National Memory? They’re rewriting World War II.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Have you ever considered that not willfully misinterpreting other people’s comments might make those people more likely to interacted with you in a more positive way? Are you here to try to persuade or to hector and try to show your supposed moral superiority?
patroclus
@Bob In Portland: Bob, you say you want to talk about issues, and I posted numerous comments above about them, which you ignored completely. Instead, it’s just more uninformed conspiratorial blather about Hillary Clinton in the 1960’s and 70’s. Winston Churchill, the son of 4th Party leader Randolph, started out as a Conservative and was quite imperialist, then switched to being a Liberal (and implemented old age pensions and other social legislation), then became an anti-socialist Constitutionalist, then back to a Conservative (and a very right wing one, especially on India), and then aligned with Labour and the Liberals in opposing the Conservatives and then headed an all-Party coalition, then became Leader of the Conservatives, and then, as PM the 2nd time, invested more money in the Labour-created National Health Service while also seeking rapproachment with Stalin and further dismantling of the British Empire. What he was and said in the 1890’s really wasn’t all that relevant in later decades – what was relevant at those times were his then-views and proposals. It seems weird that you wish to slime Hillary for what she may have done in the 60’s and 70’s – I think you should pay attention to the actual policies she’s advocating now. Which, when someone wants to discuss them with you, you deliberately ignore. Do you think you’re convincing anyone with this drivel? Or are we gonna hear more blather about how she orchestrated the 2009 coup in Honduras when, in fact, she helped negotiate the actual peaceful settlement there?
Where do you think Trump is actually going to start the next war? Or do you pay any attention whatsoever to him?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: I will admit that way this blog is set up tends to confuse parallel conversations. I don’t willfully misinterpret others comments. I do believe that different-church-lady keeps saying that I’m a racist. And it must be the most peculiar kind of racist there is because she doesn’t seem to be able to explain it.
No, if I’m treated with respect I treat others with respect. I haven’t been treated with respect around here for years.
Would I be less pugnacious if the atmosphere here were different? Of course. But visitors here know the viciousness of a lot of the regulars.
About three years ago I read in the foreign press that liberals were more thoroughly indocrinated by US propaganda than any other class. My experiences here prove that commentary correct.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland:
Did you accidentally misinterpret the comment that caused me to ask you the question? I ask this because you clearly misinterpreted it.
patroclus
@Bob In Portland: I don’t think you’re a racist. But I do think you ignore posters who want to talk about issues, even though you say that you want to discuss them. We were discussing Hillary’s actual infrastructure proposals upthread and you instead derailed the discussion with all this “Hillary in the 1960’s and 70’s” nonsense. Why? Churchill meandered though all sorts of ideologies and positions and parties because he changed his views. Is Hillary such a devil that she can’t do so also? Are you ever going to pay any attention whatsoever to Trump? Are you ever going to pay any attention to actual issues? Or is it just going to be all Hillary all the time?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Bob In Portland: It’s polite to provide links when you quote something.
It seems you got that quoted stuff from here. “Nice” site. :-/
Cheers,
Scott.
patroclus
@Omnes Omnibus: At least he responds to you. With me, it is literally like talking to a brick wall.
Omnes Omnibus
@patroclus: He is not, and never has been here, to discuss issues. He is here to promote his paranoid conspiracy theories and call people who disagree with him fascists or fascist enablers.*
*I am also just here to get the TBogg.
@patroclus: Tease him about the Gehlen Org.
patroclus
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I’ve actually been to Ukraine – to Kiev, Kharkhov and Odessa while playing big band jazz. Took a hydroplane down the Dnieper. Drank vodka with a bunch of dissidents in a park. If Bob were really interested in talking about Ukraine, I could provide him some first-hand info. Apparently, the “russofile” site is his source of info instead.
patroclus
@Omnes Omnibus: He says he wants to talk about issues. And sometimes he does – I actually had a good conversation with him about the specifics of the gun issue a couple of weeks ago. But he’s on this anti-Hillary jag today, and so, despite the conversation about infrastructure (and her specific proposals) which was going on before he got here, we instead get this mindless junk about Ukraine and conspiratorial jeremiads about Hillary in the 60’s and 70’s as though that’s at all relevant to 2016. And the thread is completely derailed. Maybe a front-pager should post a “Ukraine” and “1970’s Hillary conspiracy theory” post to make him happier. (John should cater to his readership!)
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@patroclus: BiP has argued quite vociferously here with others who know Ukraine very well, too. (Gin and Tonic, especially, IIRC.) BiP could offer a valuable, farther “left” viewpoint on what’s going on in the world, but he seems to have swallowed too much of Putin’s slightly recycled but old Stalinist-like propaganda. It’s kinda sad, really.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@patroclus: I have never come across an issue discussing BiP. I will also cop to having become biased against him by the constant drumbeat of conspiracy theories coming from him. Also too, if one calls me a fascist for supporting Democrats often enough, I lose the willingness to give a benefit of the doubt.
patroclus
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Well, I was just an impoverished student at the time and I wouldn’t claim to know a LOT about Ukraine, but I certainly got to know a lot of drunken young jazz fans. Ukrainians are hilarious people – if you’ve seen that movie “Everything is Illuminated” with Elijah Wood and Eugene Hutz (lead singer for Gogol Bordello), you’d know exactly what I experienced.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@patroclus: My grad school adviser’s family escaped Ukraine in WWII. He mostly grew up in Australia, but speaks Ukrainian at home and with his wife. I’m no expert on the place, but I’ve had a long interest in the country and its people since then. Oh, and I read Solzhenitsyn’s magnum opus in the ’70s, too, so that’s been part of my thinking as well.
It’s a small world, and getting smaller all the time. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Bob In Portland
@patroclus: I’ve seen you make this comment before, but unfortunately, with the way the comments section of this blog is set it is often hard to find all the comments directed at you. I don’t know why you wouldn’t want the ability of commenters to directly comment another comment.
I suspect that the Clintons were both working for the feds by the late sixties. Why would I say that? Because in the late sixties campuses were flooded with assets for various intelligence agencies. RAVENS IN THE STORM by Carl Oglesby is a good book to understand the atmosphere back then. There was COINTELPRO under Hoover. On campuses there was military intelligence of all types, the CIA too. Considering the political ambitions of Bill and Hillary, I would imagine their morals could accomodate them spying on others. Clinton spent a lot of time orbiting the various Black Panther legal difficulties. The Black Panthers was target #1 for COINTELPRO. For a law student with political ambitions it would be almost patriotic to spy for Hoover. I realize that someone with a personal history of spying running for president is shocking to you, although we’ve had the head of the CIA and his son as presidents.
One book on the Clintons said that his classmates at Oxford suspected that Bill was CIA then. He certainly would have been in a great position to see what was going on in Europe about the anti-war movement.
I presume you’ve seen the video of Gloria Steinem talking about her time in the CIA. It’s on YouTube. And yet most people don’t want to believe that Steinem worked for the CIA or that she in any way as a public figure might not still be involved. Read the Red Stockings on what they said about Steinem.
A couple years ago I mentioned the fact that the CIA photographed a fake Oswald at both the Soviet and Cuban embassies a month and a half before the JFK assassination. You have the gift of logic. Use it.
Okay, now let’s say you are part of a coup back in the sixties. Sure, you’ve got lots of politicians you’ve developed over the years. But what about the future? Well, wouldn’t it be better to make your own politicians than to have to have to weed out someone from the hordes when you suddenly need someone? That too wild for you to contemplate?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@patroclus: My adviser wasn’t hilarious, but he was a quirky guy with a good sense of humor. He would eat Wendy’s hamburgers with a knife and fork.
I happened to see the movie Repentance when I was in grad school. I thought it was a Ukrainian film, but Wikipedia says it’s a Georgian film. It’s quite powerful. I should try to watch it again some time…
Gotta run. Have a good night everyone!
Cheers,
Scott.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: We’re grownups here. Just say it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: What do you want me to say?
Bob In Portland
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: No, actually it was from here.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, you have an issue with my comments, that maybe I misinterpret people. I thought perhaps you had an example.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Dude, I said it. You misinterpreted that comment. There. I said it again.
patroclus
@Bob In Portland: Well, I’m well aware of COINTELPRO, the CIA’s infilitration of the National Student’s Association, the allegations about Allard Lowenstein (Dreams Die Hard is a good book on that subject), Julia Childs, and I’ve actually talked with Abbie Hoffman (before his suicide) about all the stuff he had to deal with (Steal this Book on that one), but I don’t think any of that has much to do with Hillary’s proposals on infrastructure investment, clean water, energy conservation or green energy in 2016. All of which she’s laid out in some detail. And all of which Trump has completely ignored. These are the issues we are facing now and I really think you should pay more attention to them because they affect actual life in the 21st Century. But you’ve taken so long to respond (8 hours), that I’ve got to go to bed now. So, it was nice that you responded once, but good night!
Bob In Portland
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Well, there’s nothing unusual for you being wedded to your country’s propaganda. In fact, most people have that little voice in their head telling them not to stray from the information highway.
That’s why a few years ago I kept asking the villagers here to read Christopher Simpson’s THE SCIENCE OF COERCION. I’m guessing now, but I suspect no one here has read it. In fact, by suggesting anything to back up my point of view I almost guarantee a boycott here.
In fact, I find it endlessly fascinating that the BJ’s core view of political reality here is so blind to so many things. And in some ways it’s exhilarating at how far some of you go to protect your sense of reality. Don’t stray off the reservations.
I’ve asked you before if you thought that the Secretary of State would have been blindsided by that coup in Honduras. I’ll ask you again. Do you really think that the Secretary of State didn’t know that a coup was going down? Going down with a military that’s trained, equipped and owned by the US? And which, if it is like any other client state’s military is thoroughly infiltrated by us?
Seriously.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: You served in the military, didn’t you? Do you really think that the government can pull off such things? I mean, the paperwork alone…
Seriously.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Bob In Portland: Tbogg.
I have no opinion on Honduras, other than to say that I do not believe the US has as much power in international affairs as you seem to belive. I believe actors other than the US have agency as well.
Others here have told you you’re wrong about it. Feel free to argue with them.
Cheers,
Scott.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: I claim the prize.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Omnes Omnibus: It was 499 when I started typing. I swear!
Congrats! We can all rest easy now. Except maybe for BiP and the Trilateral Commission, I guess. ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Bob In Portland
@patroclus: If you know about the National Student Association then unless you know a very constricted version of the story then you know that Steinem wrote propaganda at the International Student Festival for the CIA in Vienna, under Samuel S. Walker, Jr., vice-president of the CIA-funded Free Europe Committee. Yes, that Walker family. Steinem, prior to that, was wandering about the Third World without any apparent means of support. After that it was Clay Felker, another CIA asset, who helped her with Ms Magazine.
Then she was squired about town by Henry Kissinger. And she had a relationship with Stanley Pottinger.
If the CIA had invested in the career of Gloria Steinem, why would the CIA not invest in political careers? And of the current cast of political careers, who would you suspect to be most likely to be the CIA’s candidate this year? Hint: Steinem endorsed her like she did in her NYT op-ed in 2008.
Clinton is the most aligned candidate with the 1%. Trump is too much of a wild card. The CIA in its design was created to be the Coal and Iron Police for the 1% to keep things working their way around the world. Having problems in Guatemala? Need to stifle the nationalism in Iran? Want a right-wing dictator to oversee the oil fields in Indonesia? And who would be the best candidate to keep the war for control of energy around the world going?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: What thing? Overthrowing Arbenz? Or paying Gloria Steinem to be the head feminist of the US?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Our government has been and probably still is reading millions of emails, listening to millions of phone calls and otherwise sticking flashlights up everyone’s butt. Don’t underestimate them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Bob, here is the problem that you have at this site, It is not that we disagree with many of your ultimate goals. We just think that that you are an obstacle to anyone getting there. Short or long term. Are your theories or your goals more important? Come on, Bob, make a choice….
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: If the government does that in violation of the the Fourth Amendment, I oppose it. And, shocker for you, I define the Fourth very broadly. And the Sixth, Fifth, and the rest.
J R in WV
@Bob in Portland:
Bob – the only person here who really seems to hate Hillary Clinton is Bob, the village idiot.
Most of us think she has learned enough from the political master now in the Oval Office to have become a good – if not even great – President Clinton.
I think as she pivots to the General Election and speaks of her plans more, she will become popular enough, after all , look at the cretin opposing her! Or should I say cretins?! Bob.
Bob In Portland
@J R in WV: I don’t hate Clinton.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: And do you think that your candidate H. Clinton didn’t know about the spying on US citizens? Do you think Dianne Feinstein didn’t know?
The ECHELON program was being installed back in the mid-nineties, during Bill’s presidency. Do you think he knew about it?
So here is your dilemma. You support our Bill of Rights. The people you vote for violate them. Massively. How long until Obama found out?
Is it too much to suggest that we don’t vote for the people who spit on our rule of law? Apparently.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus:
Posting at Balloon Juice is an obstacle to what? A massive jobs program? To ending our waging war around the world? You’ll have to be more specific.
Bob In Portland
@J R in WV: Even without your insults you don’t advance your argument. And what makes a great president? There are fifteen million kids in the US who don’t know if they’re going to eat today. Will she end that?
Will she stop regime changing? Will she stop wars? Let’s hope so, but I see nothing in her resume to presume she won’t make things worse.
If you don’t feed the hungry, if you need to kill to advance your view of the world, then you’re not great.
Bob In Portland
Here is your dilemma. If our elected officials knowingly violated the law then they are criminal. If they didn’t they aren’t in control.
So it’s up to you. Construct your own reality. Are they criminals or are they just actors on the national stage?
Bob In Portland
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: It’s not a question of who speaks a language. It’s a question about what is actually happening. The same guy who cowrote articles with Judith Miller lying us into war with Iraq a dozen years ago has been writing articles for the NY Times about Ukraine. Why would you believe him now when you know he lied to you when the sabers were rattling about Iraq?
One thing that people here at BJ like to do is demand credentials. It’s part of being the educated neo-liberal class. Apparently, a proven liar at the NY Times is considered reliable here in the Village. And someone who speaks Ukrainian must be an honest purveyor of all things Ukraine.
This is what I said about Ukraine. It was a Nazi ally during WWII. Is that true? Well, we know the minister of national memory is working on this problem, but yes, you can read lots of books about Ukrainian people gleefully killing Poles and Jews and joining military formations to fight the Russians. An estimated million Jews were killed in Ukraine, mostly by fascist Ukrainians because the endless killing was causing bad morale among the German soldiers.
So the OUN/B and other fascist formations in Ukraine were allies of the Nazis. Hurry up before the minister of national memory and the New York Times change history and read about it.
Large sectors of Western big business, the OSS and the military at the end of World War II wanted to continue the war by attacking the Soviet Union. FDR clearly didn’t want that and most Americans at the time didn’t want any more war. But men like Allen Dulles were cutting deals to use former Nazis and their former allied fascists to continue the war against the Soviets. War criminals worked for Radio Free Europe broadcasting into the Soviet Union. By the 50s the CIA, with Ronald Reagan as its spokesman, were importing fascist Ukrainians into the US and Canada. This is on record. There are reports that Ukrainians who weren’t fascist were not brought into the US but beaten and killed by the fascists in post-war relocation camps.
The US, through various agencies, supported the Ukrainian immigrants and certainly didn’t discourage them from their fascist past or their hatred of the Soviet Union and the Russians.
The Ukrainians certainly had lots of justified hostility against the Russians and the Soviet Union. The US used that hate for its own agenda and has continued to do so. Like other former Soviet satellite states, important trained the brightest, often through the NED, to go back to their homelands (or the homelands of their fathers and grandfathers) to work on westernizing these countries. By westernizing I mean making them direct enemies of Russia and integrating their economies with the West. The dismantling of Yugoslavia followed the same arc so that essentially the former Yugoslavia now resembles what it looked like under the Nazis in WWII.
There was a lot of commentary arising out of Russ Bellant’s article in The Nation in 1988 regarding the Republican Heritage Committee. It was essentially a collection of former Nazis imported into the US after the war, to include Ukrainians. Many of these people were veterans of WWII, on the other side.
Because of Bellant’s article a number of the people on the Republican Heritage Committee resigned. But the relationship between the Nazis and Republicans had existed since WWII and continued. There was some attention paid to the World Anti-Communist League around this time. WACL was actually an incarnation of Hitler’s Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations, and even had a US Senator as a member. It isn’t surprising that some of the generals who led right-wing coups around the world at the US’s behest were members of WACL.
When Bill Clinton took office the support of these fascist groups became bipartisan. Not that Democrats hadn’t previously dabbled in this. The attack on Afghanistan started in earnest under Zbigniew Brzezinski was essentially a fascist Arab formation, and when bin Laden was leading the Mujahadeen he was another freedom fighter, although, for example, Afghan women were freer under the Soviet-supported regime than any time after that.
Is there any of this that you disagree with? I’ve posted plenty of links about these things and the righteous of the Village refuse to read them.
Ukraine has strategic value for the US. When in the early fifties the US was arming and directing OUN/B units in the Soviet Union it was important because of its location, and Crimea was important because that is where the Soviets’ warm water port in the west is. Ukraine has become more important strategically because Russian natural gas to Europe flows through pipelines in Ukraine.
When the US supported the coup in 2014, the US had strategic goals beyond putting Nazis back in control. The US energy industry has been interested in Russian energy resources since before the Russian Revolution.
The problem was that Ukraine isn’t a homogeneous state. The eastern part is ethnically Russian and were victims of the Nazi formations during WWII. Since that was where the ousted president had secured the majority of votes, these people did not recognize the coup. The US and NATO recognized the coup. Thus the beginning of the civil war. Russia, seeing this happening, seized Crimea. Crimea is much more aligned with the ethnically Russian eastern half of Ukraine.
The regime put in place by the US attacked the east. Russia aided the easterners against the fascists, who were leading the military. It didn’t take much aid because Ukraine has for a long time been corrupt and its army was in terrible shape. The people in Crimea were happy to go with Russia compared to the rest of Ukraine.
The corrupt oligarchs who were the ruling class of Ukraine were replaced by western-leaning oligarchs (like Poroshenko the chocolate king). Between the civil war and the “westernizing” of Ukraine, the country is basically ruined. And the little fascists that the US brought in after WWII and their children and grandchildren helped to ruin it.
The US cannot just shut off the natural gas that flows through Ukraine to Europe. It would probably trigger a massive depression around the world and shut down a significant part of European industry.
I have mentioned the natural gas terminals being built along our Atlantic coast over the last five years. At some level someone thought that fracked US natural gas would replace Russian natural gas, but it isn’t competitive now that the price of oil has fallen. The ideal solution for western energy moguls would be to control that massive deposit of oil in Central Asia, and I would guess that that is the eventual goal.
I could go into the crash in the oil market as it applies to global politics if anyone is interested.
You might note that I never mentioned democracy or personal freedom or women’s rights or any other high-minded motivation behind American imperialism.
Iran used to be a client state before the Shah was overthrown. Iraq had been a client state before the US decided that Saddam should go. The CIA helped the Ba’ath Party in both Syria and Iraq. They were reactionary but they also were generally secular, due to the various various religious groups occupying their territories.
Of course, over the last twenty years the US with the great aid of the House of Saud and a number of Sunni Gulf States, has used religious extremism to destabilize and control the region. Again, not for any benefit for the locals, but to control energy and the territory the pipelines pass through.
I would be interested in knowing who here at Balloon Juice thinks we invaded Afghanistan to give women rights there, or that we attacked Iraq because it was an imminent threat to someone. Does anyone actually think that Ukraine is better off now? We haven’t even touched on Libya. Is anyone happy with that situation after the NATO bombing and destruction of its central government?
But if I raise the US responsibility in these countries I am abused, shouted down, insulted here at Balloon Juice. Why? Because in order to protect your version of reality you cannot admit any of this. Whether or not Clinton was spying for COINTELPRO is really irrelevant. It would merely add clarity to her political career. If Bill Clinton had been an asset for the CIA during his time in Oxford as his classmates thought it might better explain his incuriousness about Mena. It might also explain how both of them rose in the ranks to be president and soon-to-be president. But it’s not necessary to understand why both Republicans and Democrats can keep finding money for wars and why we can’t find money to feed starving children here in the US.
H. Clinton is a continuation, and for a majority of Americans this is not good. Maybe not for credentialed neoliberals/neoconservatives. I guess that’s just something else you’ve trained yourselves not to see.
I recommended the Thomas Frank book because it talks about you (the Villagers of Balloon Juice). I recommended a few years ago that you see the movie THE CONFORMIST because it is about credentialed people who allowed fascism in Italy. I recommended Flannery O’Connor’s “A Good Man Is Hard To Find” because it encapsulates how people lie to themselves and cling to their ideas of civilized behavior when they are facing the cruelty of their actual world. If anything the few sensible posters around here have left and the rest here are going to hold tightly onto their world no matter how it doesn’t match the facts.
I am not a Putin supporter, but is the leader of Russia and he acts in his country’s self-interest. The US has been waging war against Russia several countries ago, for profits. It continues. I don’t think that Russia is all freedom and high-fives, and I worry about how our reactionary policies have encouraged Russia’s version of reactionary religiousness. But to destroy countries and the people who live in them in order for oligarchs to further enrich themselves is evil. And the Villagers here are cheering the evil of the world. They live in a bubble and refuse to acknowledge the real world.
Why do I bother? I’m stubborn.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Bob In Portland: I believe I’ve mentioned that it’s nearly impossible to have a conversation about current events with you because you far too often go off on tangents and bring up extraneous matters. Stream of consciousness monologues can be interesting as speeches, but they’re horrible for having focused conversations.
So, even if I were willing to address your points in this, which I’m not because I don’t have the time, it would not further any sort of understanding. Too many of your premises I do not accept. And you, seemingly, do not accept that on can support Hillary in the election without it meaning that one supports everything she advocates or that one accepts your framing of her or US history.
It would probably be a lot less frustrating for you, and more productive, if you posted things like this on your own blog and posted pointers to it here. But, that’s just my opinion.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.