Update: The next law enforcement press update/briefing is now scheduled for 2 PM EDT.
Here’s the link to the WFTV Orland Channel 9 live stream for the 1:30 2:00 PM EDT law enforcement update;
http://www.wftv.com/watch-live
It may get pushed back because President Obama will deliver a statement at 1:30 PM EDT.
Here’s the live feed for the President’s remarks:
Elizabelle
Thank you.
Randy P
God damn it.
I’ll hang on for the President’s statement. He’s pretty much the only voice I want to hear in times of national pain.
But then I’m turning off the internet for a few hours and going looking for Opus’ dandelion field.
Miss Bianca
Is it wrong that there’s some part of me that wants the President to just walk out to the podium, stare around a second, then just say, “America, you have lost your goddamn mind. God help us all” and walk out again?
? Martin
Not buying the ISIS motivation.
There’s a clear difference of intensity between ISIS and various evangelical groups, but not a difference of message. The GOP continues to melt down any time an attempt is made to secure LGBT rights. They are on a weak foundation to denounce ISIS on this.
JPL
@Miss Bianca: He probably wants to say that also.
Elizabelle
These mass shootings happen so often. Makes you wonder if they keep a draft response loaded up in the laptop, and edit as needed for the latest lunacy.
Wondering how many of these speeches PBO has had to make (although best answer is “too damn many”).
I think Virginia Tech and Mother Emmanuel were among the roughest. And the Rev. Clemente Pinckney was an incredible loss.
debbie
@Miss Bianca:
I think it is. No matter how odious or seemingly impossible, you don’t give up the fight.
JPL
@? Martin: Do we know anything else about that person. Just because the person is from Indiana, that doesn’t mean anything.
CarolDuhart2
Angry about this? Want to do something?
Links:
http://momsdemandaction.org/
http://www.bradycampaign.org/
https://twitter.com/Bradybuzz
#gunsense
https://twitter.com/Montgomery_bjm/status/742046099079344128
debbie
@Elizabelle:
In the in between times, the arguments turn to the definition of a mass murder (which I believe is a minimum of 4 victims). More than a few of the RWNJs insist that number is far too low, is politically correct, and is used just to make them look bad.
Major Major Major Major
http://www.latimes.com/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html
Man with weapons and possible explosives arrested, was going to L.A. gay pride parade, sources say
Edit: I see Martin beat me to it
Elizabelle
@? Martin: I still wanna hear more about that Los Angeles man who convinced his girlfriend he was a CIA agent and human-alien hybrid; the one found dead in his car and then he had an arsenal — rooms full of weapons.
Ever seen any follow up on that?
Villago Delenda Est
@? Martin: They’re only on a weak foundation if they’re trying to appeal to those who can critically think.
They’re aiming towards the Drumpfenproletariat.
Miss Bianca
@Elizabelle:
uh..yeah. I think we all wanna hear more about that.
boatboy_srq
@? Martin:@Major Major Major Major: Just. No. Words.
lamh36
Prediction: clinging to ISIS angle to this story, the NRA, GOP and anti-gun control nuts will ignore the LGBT angle
Elizabelle
@Miss Bianca: Interesting to me that it just fell off the newspages after a few days.
boatboy_srq
@lamh36: Prediction already broken, thanks to that excrescence of a Lt. Gov. In TX.
Adam L Silverman
Law enforcement update now at 2 PM EDT.
SiubhanDuinne
@Miss Bianca:
In a way, that’s what I had in mind in the thread downstairs when I referenced the NMFTG version of Obama.
Either that, or going completely Executive Privilege on the NRA’s ass.
lamh36
@boatboy_srq: the lt gov camps says that the tweet was a “timed” tweet of scripture on Sunday
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: That could be great, because I am not sure the gun nuts can turn out any more voters than they already have.
And you have a society that is wondering if its kids are safe in elementary schools, colleges, just walking around. Even playing at a neighbor’s house.
The reign of terror by gun has to stop.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
I’m listening to NPR’s coverage (yeah, I know, but consider the alternatives) and someone there said at least a dozen since he took office.
Major Major Major Major
@lamh36: that was my assumption too, actually. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt for that.
Now, the fact that nobody *un*-timed the tweet, is either a failure of logistics, or intentional.
? Martin
@JPL: I didn’t mean to imply that. I mean that we have a large community in the US, with a political party currently in control of Congress advancing the same rationale as ISIS very clearly from a religious foundation. Members of Congress aren’t shy of referencing the Bible as justification for anti LGBT legislation. We have a large subculture within the US that continue to advance the idea that gays are immoral, that LGBT are sex predators, and so on. We have the very same subculture advancing the gun agenda. Wayne LaPierre doesn’t spout off on gun control in his speeches as much as he does about the breakdown of society because of gay marriage, Obamacare, and so on. The NRA routinely and specifically ties gun ownership to culture war issues. They are a drawing a line parallel to ISIS here. They don’t call for the murder of non-Christians, or gays, etc. But there is a clear message that Christians should be afraid of those people and they should arm up to defend themselves against them. It’s not a huge leap for people to say “Hey, I’m encouraged to be afraid of this group, and I’m encouraged to be armed – maybe I should do something about this?” Statistically, with enough guns out there, and enough of this message from the NRA, or Limbaugh, or Louis Gohmert and his fear of gay space stations (da fuq?) at any given time you’ll have someone making that connection and going off.
It doesn’t matter if they are Christian or Muslim, if you have a culture giving permission for this sort of thing, they’ll use it to rationalize their own fears and intolerance.
Elizabelle
This is a bit late starting …
bystander
Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick tweeted, “As you reap, so shall you sow.”
I’m supposed to worry about Muslims. Texas, please secede.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
VA Tech was indeed rough, but it happened in April 2007, long before the Obama presidency. For me, the three that really stand out in memory (and where POTUS was especially moving) are Sandy Hook/Newtown, Mother Emmanuel Church, and the Tucson shopping mall where Gaby Giffords was shot and a little girl lost her life because she wanted to meet her Congresswoman.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: Ah. Misremembered VaTech.
Tim Kaine was governor of Virginia then.
Marc
The extreme denial about the ISIS connection here is really disheartening. Yes, gun control – but France had that, and they got a lot of people killed in an attack very similar to this. We don’t do ourselves any favor by trying to turn this into another fight that we’re more comfortable with.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: It is.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@CarolDuhart2: A couple more:
http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org (Gabby Giffords and Mark Kelly’s outfit)
http://csgv.org/ (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
There are many, many good groups out there. Let’s hope that we do enough to help them turn the tide.
Cheers,
Scott.
PaulWartenberg2016
What horrifies me is that 50 or more people are going to die for one man’s anger against the world.
What sickens me is the realization that we are going to get a ton of anti-Muslim haters crowing about this shit, accusing Islam of violence (there are millions of Muslims who DON’T KILL PEOPLE, okay?!), and justifying their calls for deporting, torturing, or killing Muslims to satisfy their hate.
Gods. Trump is going to turn this into a shitstorm, I can feel it.
beth
CNN reporting gunman called 911, claimed allegiance to ISIS.
Marc
@lamh36: and, if the reaction here is any guide, there will be a lot of people determined to ignore the isis angle.
Adam L Silverman
2 minute warning on the President’s remarks!
SiubhanDuinne
Two minute warning just went, so fire up your iPads and ‘puters and teevees.
Adam L Silverman
Look there’s Jonathon “The GOP Mole” Karl!
Renie
A show of humanity in this tragedy – Orlando blood donation centers are overwhelmed with people wishing to donate blood.
Culture of Truth
If the wake of this mass murder of innocent Americans, please don’t forget to offer Donald Trump your congratulations. He appreciates it.
PaulWartenberg2016
@beth:
He can claim whatever he wants. He was still a violent a-hole. He didn’t need motivation to go kill people, any excuse would do for angry guys like him.
I don’t care if he claimed membership to the Little Orphan Annie radio show. He still got an assault rifle and shot 50 people to death, all because those people were LGBT or friends/family of the nightclub regulars. Damn him.
Elizabelle
@Marc: France had the Charlie Hebdo shootings, and the Bataclan evening events. Probably a few more than that.
But it’s not a constant deluge, and drip drip drip every single day of murders and suicides and accidents, every single day, in the US.
Yes, ISIS is terrible and needs to be dealt with. But they’re not having to smuggle weapons in. It’s incredibly easy to come by military style weapons in the US of Cray Cray.
France does not seem a country that disbelieves in science, and would not have it public health service study gun deaths, were they faced with the rate we see.
Video up; no PBO yet. Jonathan Karl there, looking stern.
PBO.
lamh36
President Obama “this was an act of TERROR and of HATE”!
Cermet
Just mind numbing terrible; such a tragic targeting and killing. Damn, damn, damn. I can’t deal with this and our continued war against “terrorism” is only making maters worse.
aimai
@Marc: Denial about the Isis connection? What are you talking about. “Turning this into a fight we are more comfortable with?” What is this crap? If its ISIS they failed spectacularly because no mass shootig in the US affects their real world interests in the slightest. If its local, anti LGBTQ hatred, whether islamic or christianist, its very seriously terroristic and we should crack down on locally available guns as soon as possible.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
Came right out and called it an “Act of terror”. Which will the RWNJs do:
1) Deny he ever said it
2) Go ballistic because he didn’t add “Radical” and “Islamic”?
rikyrah
I believe that he was gay.
He hated it in himself
Did not compute with being Afghan or Muslim.
Married the wife, and abused her when she didn’t cure him of ‘the gay’.
No way I believe that he randomly chose that club.
pseudonymous in nc
@Marc:
A young male bigot with a history of violence and easy access to guns ‘pledges allegiance’ to one particular bunch of bastards before embarking on mass murder because they’re a better cultural fit than the NRA-GOP-KKK?
Fuck you.
Mike in NC
@PaulWartenberg2016:
Bank on it, and before the day is out. Maybe he’ll appear next to Wayne LaPierre.
JPL
@? Martin: I know and in my heart I’m hoping that is was an evangelical. That community also has to watch its members.
SiubhanDuinne
Dear lord, that man is weary.
aimai
What a great, sobering, statement by the President. He has HAD it with us. And rightly so.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
“Is this the kind of nation we want to be.”
I think you know that answer, Mr. President. I think we all do now.
Cacti
The GOP strongly condemns the mass murder of people they only “wish” were dead.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Excellent message from the President.
I got the strong feeling that he is so very tired of having to give this same message. :-(
I’m glad he didn’t take any questions. His statement should be allowed to speak for itself for a change.
Cheers,
Scott.
Elizabelle
This is the weekend of Malia’s graduation from high school.
This kind of crap always intrudes on Obama’s happiness and family life. He was on vacation during one of the massacres …
He seems to be sick of giving this speech, and resolute about getting the communities and law enforcement the means they need to investigate.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@PaulWartenberg2016:
If there is anything fortunate about today, it is that the flag carrier for American fascism will find more than one way to fuck himself up over it.
Mai.naem.mobile
@rikyrah: total speculation but,yeah,thats my gut feeling. Angry repressed gay taking out on people who had dealt with it and were happy with it. Asshole.
? Martin
@Marc: I don’t deny ISIS connection, but there’s no evidence that he organized with ISIS or was instructed by them. This looks like a person with an individual issue with gays that is justifying that by aligning at the end with ISIS (or could have with any other anti-LGBT group).
My contention is that because we continue to have an anti-LGBT culture, promoted out of some large, respected religious groups and codified by Republicans in Congress, it doesn’t much matter who the person attaches to in the end, they had plenty of time just from socially acceptable rhetoric within the US (no need for external propaganda) to reach this result.
germy
drump on twitter:
Culture of Truth
Obama: The killer was armed with a handgun and a semi-automatic assault rifle. We have to decide if this is the kind of country we want to be. To do nothing is also a choice
lamh36
Keith G
@lamh36: @Major Major Major Major: As I scan his Tweets, there are regular Sunday “verse” tweets. It’s association with the news of the day probably was not originally intended, but Dan Patrick is still a hate-fulled, bullying, pus-sack.
Marc
@pseudonymous in nc: Gun control can work to prevent random nuts in a way that it does not work on an organized effort to instigate mass shootings. I certainly support gun control. It wouldn’t have helped here if it’s an organized ISIS attack.
Why is it so goddamn hard to stow the false equivalences here? Seriously. The Charleston killer was motivated by racial bigotry, the killer here was motivated by extremist Islam, in the same way that ISIS throws gay men to their deaths off tall buildings in Mosul. No excuses for either one of them.
D58826
@Mike in NC: HE ALREADY HAS. He is talking about how he was congratulated for being right and unless Obama uses the magic words he should resign
Major Major Major Major
“Pledging allegiance” to ISIS is a largely meaningless act but that doesn’t change that the ideology is out there and is bad and this guy probably followed it. If we’re going to use stochastic responsibility when nutjobs claiming to be Christian do it then we have to do it here to.
Guns are a tough nut to crack. If we had no guns he wouldn’t have done this. But as Adam has said there would be a big black market, which is just plain true short of a big confiscation regime. It’s starting to feel like this is just the cost of doing business in America.
CarolDuhart2
All those organizations I listed: they need money and support to get the job done. Too often anti-violence, gun control (hell, I’m hoping there is one) gun abolition groups are on a shoestring with little money to organize or advertise regularly. Make these groups millionaires, and maybe they can stand up to the NRA.
And speaking of the NRA, they may have woken a sleeping giant in the gay community. Gay people have battled far worse, and far longer.
lamh36
Elizabelle
@Marc: In all honesty, is this latest set of victims any more dead because they were killed by an alleged ISIS sympathiser than the community college students shot by a disturbed young man, the little kids and Sandy Hook staff, the students and teachers at Virginia Tech who were on campus to learn.
ISIS as shooter, the usual disturbed and alienated male with a gun with no known ISIS ties. Victims are as dead as can be, no matter who fired what gun.
I don’t think we’re minimizing ISIS, but we’re not maximizing it either.
And yes, what happened here can happen anywhere in the world. It can happen in any US community.
But it happens more often in the US than in any other country.
And why is that?
[Look! Muslims! Ah, no.]
Yutsano
@Adam L Silverman: Saw a stat on Twitter that this will be his 43rd speech after a mass shooting in his two terms.
And I ranted on Facebook: Fuck thoughts and prayers, especially from GOP politicians. DO SOMETHING YOU WORTHLESS PIG FUCKERS!!!
Mai.naem.mobile
I have had a bit of concern with something like this happening right before the election helping Trumpster, but I was figuring on it being obviously ISIS. I was thinking October Surprise.
D58826
@lamh36: Maybe but it certainly seems like it was consistent with the general fundie attitude of the gays offend god
Linnaeus
@Elizabelle:
Yeah, I noticed that this statement was terser than the last one he gave (and the fact that I had to write “the last one he gave” is not lost on me). He’s tired of this shit.
CarolDuhart2
@Major Major Major Major: Bring on the black market. Make these people skulk around for these types of weapons and pay highway robbery prices. Tax the fuckers like cigarettes and whiskey and now pot, so at least they can pay the hospital bills of those who get shot without insurance. Maybe demented losers who have masculinity problems will be unable to afford such a method of quick revenge.
Marc
@? Martin: I understand, but seriously doubt that the homophobia of Islamic extremists is caused by US figures from a completely different religious tradition that they view as evil.
Betty Cracker
@Marc: PBO called it an act of terror and an act of hate. Sounds accurate to me. It makes sense to address all the elements of this massacre: the easy access to weapons that can kill 50 people in just a few minutes, the homophobia and the fundamentalist extremism.
Culture of Truth
This blog is generally very supportive of President Obama, who is currently waging a war on ISIS.
germy
GOP Senator Admits Gun Control Should Be Part of Debate:
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/06/gop-senator-admits-gun-control-should-be
Luthe
This post is going around Tumblr:
So to all y’all trying to push the Daesh connection, forget it. This was about hate, not a bunch of assholes in the Middle East.
germy
Yutsano
@rikyrah: Well in line with the stat that most homophobic males have homosexual tendencies within themselves.This is especially prevalent in the Muslim countries where there are very few outlets for gay desires of any kind to be expressed.
Shorter me: YOU BET YOUR BIPPIE!!!
pseudonymous in nc
@Marc:
Ah, so you’re arguing from ‘if’.
This was a targeted attack on a community that is the subject of scapegoating and institutionalised bigotry for electoral gain across the United States. ISIS didn’t need to organise people into hating gays and wanting them dead.
Fuck you. Delete your account.
JMG
It’s economics 101. If you want less of something, tax it. Automatic rifles should carry a prohibitive, as in $1000 or more, federal tax enforced with a stamp on the weapon that can’t be removed. Anyone with such a weapon and no tax stamp would have it confiscated and be liable for tax evasion charges, Taxation is not a violation of the Second Amendment in any way.
ISIS is just a brand name Muslim homicidal losers can use to justify their murderous natures. No different than the KKK or Nazi fetishists. The actual ISIS organization doesn’t have to recruit these guys, just let them use the label to seem bigger than they are. Not much different than how Nike uses its merch, actually.
Elizabelle
@Luthe: It’s two mints in one, Luthe.
But agree: look at who was targeted, please. I have a feeling Orlando has a few more nightclubs. And yet this gunman ended up at this one.
Marc
@Betty Cracker: Completely agree. I was reacting to the tendency that I was seeing to sweep away the terror aspect, because it’s relevant for what we need to do to try and avoid a repeat.
Cacti
@Culture of Truth:
Uh huh.
Your point?
Marc
@pseudonymous in nc: I’ve been here for years – asshole. Who the fuck are you?
You’re useless, and going into the pie filter, but for the record the sentence that you were incapable of interpreting was noting that organized terror attacks are harder to prevent than random shootings, which is not a controversial thing to say at all.
PaulWartenberg2016
@Culture of Truth:
I just saw he had f-cking posting that Tweet. Self-indulgent bastard is CROWING about this.
He’s going to use this to stir up MORE anti-Muslim sentiment.
Linnaeus
@Marc:
As someone born and raised in the US, though, he wouldn’t have been isolated from the multiple wellsprings of antigay culture in this country.
Amaranthine RBG
I am very much going to miss Obama when he’s gone.
Sanders, Clinton, Trump (?!) – none of them could have given such an honest, sincere statement.
germy
@Marc:
Yes, and it was an extremely rare occurrence in France. Not like over here where it happens every few weeks.. .
aimai
@Marc: No evidence that this guy was motivated by “extremist islam.” None. The fact that he was Muslim does not mean that he had any connection with the poltiical arm of Islam. And, actually, stricter gun laws would of course have affected his ability to get the guns, whether it were a private act or a group plot. Making it harder for everyone and anyone to get such guns would strongly limit the ability of political terrorists to carry out their goals.
Keith G
@rikyrah:
@Mai.naem.mobile:
I know y’all men well, but can we just hold off on this. It just feels icky and perilously close to the “Unstable Homo” trope.
I know neither of you mean to go there, but my feelings, and those of my fellows whom I have communicated with, are currently really fragile. This type of speculation does none of us any good right now.
aimai
@Amaranthine RBG: Its obvious that both Bill Clinton and Hillary could have given statements just as sincere and just as moving as Obama’s. That is a ridiculously over the top statement. Bill was legendary for his ability to communicate and Hillary is a person with both gravitas and maternal empathy.
PaulWartenberg2016
I’m seeing reports online that the gunman was married, and had a kid… but I’m also seeing reports about an “ex-wife who accused him of abuse” so I’m wondering if this guy was going through a divorce where he was the target of a domestic violence charge… we need more information though.
All I will say about THAT is it fits the profile – Angry Guy with Guns, with personal relationship issues of domestic violence and sexual aggression/repression (at the same time). And he lashes out at everyone else over his own twisted pain.
Peale
I can really only understand that tweet from the lt. Governor from Texas as support for mass killings of gays.
Adam L Silverman
@Yutsano: Doing something might cost someone their phony baloney jobs.
Amaranthine RBG
@aimai:
You’re free to believe that Hillary Clinton is equal to Obama as a speaker if you’d like.
Major Major Major Major
Adam, got a quick gloss on this? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-shooting-suspects-father-hosted-a-political-tv-show-and-even-tried-to-run-for-the-afghan-presidency/
lamh36
when he said “To actively do nothing, is a decision as well.” it broke my heart a little and reminded you that he really has tried
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Marc: You’re falling into the trap of thinking of this guy as a foreigner. He wasn’t. He learned his homophobia from the dominant culture in this country. Daesh was a better match for him, the Army of God is a better match for another guy, but they’re the same guy.
Just because their chosen hate groups have different names doesn’t mean they are different at the core.
Citizen_X
@Marc: The fact that the gunman’s father immediately outed him as being enraged by seeing two men kissing shows that he didn’t learn his homophobia at home. Was it from the local Muslim community? Maybe, but again, his father doesn’t seem like he’d be ok with that. So where did he learn it? From some anonymous ISIS assholes online, sure, maybe, but also probably from our homegrown, loud, anti gay Christianists.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@germy: The problem with the “mental illness checks” stuff is it is a distraction. Who decides that someone has a “mental illness” and what defines “mental illness”? It’s a way to prevent action from happening.
Anyone who was ever suicidal or ever thought about suicide? That would include probably 50% of people who went through middle- and high-school.
People who are under active mental health treatment? Including victims of crime? Do we really want people to stop getting mental health treatment so that they can get off a forbidden-to-get-a-gun list?
Will gun shows be included? Sales between private parties? Gifts?
Look at the Germanwings pilot. He had mental health issues, but wouldn’t the risk of losing his pilot’s license make him even more likely to do something rash?
Would the guys and gals at the the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupation have qualified as having a mental illness?
Should people be required to have a mental health screening before getting a gun, or should only people who have ever been treated and have a paperwork history be checked?
No, I don’t think that we should accept the framing that “if only we had better mental health screening then these shootings wouldn’t have happened.” The reality of politics and mental health treatment in the US is that it wouldn’t be enough. It invites stigmitizing people who are actually being treated, and it doesn’t really address the problem. We need to address the problem in a broader way.
Yes, someone with enough rage inside themselves to kill dozens of people has a mental illness of some sort. But that’s not the problem. The problem is the access to weapons of war that make it far too easy for them to kill quickly.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
germy
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Very good points.
Marc
@aimai: I’m going to be ducking out, as rational discussion is impossible and casual abuse is apparently totally OK (not you – I’m just not in the mood to receive the level of nastiness that I’m getting, and I’m obviously getting impacted by it, as indicated by an angry response to repeated baiting and fuck yous from someone that I should not have sent.) I’m relying on officials who would usually be careful about this sort of thing saying it up front, and news reports that he called 911 and said that he supported ISIS.
Gimlet
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/283189-schiff-shooter-in-orlando-attack-reportedly-made-pledge-of
Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) said on Sunday that he was told the Orlando, Fla., nightclub shooting suspect pledged allegiance to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS).
“What I’ve heard from the Department of Homeland Security this morning is that, according to local police, he made a pledge of allegiance to ISIL,” Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said on CNN, using an alternate acronym for ISIS.
“[He] was heard praying in a foreign language, and I don’t know if this was at some point during the course of the shooting, but that’s what I’m hearing, obviously second-hand, coming ultimately from local police.”
NBC News’s Pete Williams said law enforcement officials told him that the gunman called 911 just before the killing spree began, and pledged allegiance to ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
Peale
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: it would seem strange that someone who passed a check to be a security guard would have failed a check to obtain a weapon for killing people.
The Dangerman
@Adam L Silverman:
I’ll reply here to something you asked downstairs:
I don’t think so (but that’s far from definitive given how early it was my end (and I slept poorly, making my capacity even more degraded)); he struck me as some troglodyte from the Bible Belt (with appropriate apologies to all good people in the Bible Belt).
Cacti
@Amaranthine RBG:
Obama is obviously a superior orator to Hillary. But Hillary wouldn’t have to feign any sadness over the events in Orlando.
OTOH, GOPers think gays are subhuman and unworthy of the full rights of equal citizenship. They should be held to account for this now more than ever.
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
Whoa. This is going to end up very messy with outcomes as unsatisfying as San Bernardino.
And Orlando will have nothing but funerals for weeks to come yet receive no closure.
Adam L Silverman
@JMG: I agree completely on the tax concept. That said this wasn’t an automatic weapon. Those are regulated under the National Firearms Act, ownership is heavily restricted, and they are already subject to a tax. Not its not a tremendously huge tax, but given that they have been restricted since 1986 and very limited numbers of new automatic weapons are produced and, along with used ones,are available for the private market in the US they already command outsize prices when they do go up for sale. The restriction and the NFA tax and licensure requirements make them prohibitively expensive for most people in the US.
D58826
@aimai: Bill established the mourner-in-chief role after Oklahoma City. Hillary admits that she is not the public speaker that Obama/Bill are. So will have to see what she say’s when this happens (as it will) on her watch.
Elizabelle
@aimai: Yup. San Bernardino shooter obtained his guns through straw purchase by (dumb) American friend. He did not want to come to the attention of authorities by purchasing on his own (which he might have succeeded at; no known problems at that time and stable job with state of California).
Adam Lanza was reportedly not able to legally purchase a gun, although his mom Nancy helpfully stashed the family arsenal in his bedroom.
It’s ridiculous that Aurora CO theater shooter was under psychiatric care and able to assemble thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammo by mail purchase. The Virginia Tech shooter did not come to authorities’ notice either, despite concerns by his professors.
We could and should make it a lot harder for all citizens to purchase firearms. It can work; doesn’t always, but our problem as Americans is not too few guns floating around.
Major Major Major Major
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: We do need to work on our mental heath system in this country, but you’re right about it being sort of a distraction. One of the things that really galls me about gun massacres is that people try to say “well this is really a mental health issue, we should work on THAT” and then we never address mental health either!
The collision of our commitment to not involuntarily throwing people in the nuthouse (you know, liberty and all) and our determination that gun ownership is a human right (as the court has said, basically)… What are we supposed to do? I mean I know what we should do but these seem to be immovable objects.
Culture of Truth
@Cacti: My point is that I reject the contention that is there extreme denial about an alleged ISIS connection here, nor that there is any reason why there would be, at this blog. Maybe there is an ISIS connection, maybe there is not. If the implication is that most commenters here, or liberals in general, don’t care about ISIS or are in denial about it, well, that’s unsupported.
Betty Cracker
A WaPo article republished by the Tampa Bay Times provides some context around the shooter’s father:
On the other hand, he says the son’s actions had nothing to do with religion and that he didn’t know about it:
ETA: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/orlando-shooting-suspects-father-hosted-a-political-tv-show-and-even-tried/2281365
mark
Chuck Todd has already told Bernie Sanders to shut up about gun control today because that is “politizing” the Orlando massacre.
To paraphrase Carville from ’92 “Its the Media, stupid”. I just left a message on Meet The Press stupid website condemning the scumbag Chuck Todd. I’m going to disconnect my cable tomorrow
? Martin
@Marc: You’re now taking a bigger leap here. All I’m saying is that you don’t need to blame ISIS propaganda when the US generates exactly the same propaganda locally. Sure, the shooter could have been reading ISIS, but they equally could have been reading the US Congress or some of our governors and state legislatures. And because that local attitude is aligned with ISIS, the ISIS propaganda is easier for the individual to absorb – they can internalize the message ‘yes, that’s just what Ted Cruz says’ and so on.
Because the shooter was Muslim, it’s more likely they would have attached to ISIS in the end but the path there could have been entirely local. Until we see evidence that ISIS is structurally connected to the shooter, I will continue to see the ISIS connection as a way to stereotype and deflect attention from our domestic anti-LGBT culture.
D58826
Capitalism is wonderful. Olberman has a tweet that Dinesh Dsouze is using the Orlando shooting to flog his book. The hole of depravity on the part of the right is bottomless.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman:
I remember back in the day when lawmakers were going after Saturday Night Specials the NRA-type defense was outlawing them would hurt poor people by depriving them of affordable weapons. (See, they really do care about the poors.) I can see the argument being dusted off for any kind of gun fees. Not that it’s a bad idea.
Yutsano
@Major Major Major Major: This:
does not line up with this:
The vast majority of Pashtuns speak Pashto, which is a completely different language from Dari, which is basically Farsi. I know WaPo has gotten sloppy but that contradiction just screams out at me. While many Afghans are multilingual, a Pashto speaking Dari on an Afghan channel in the Us just seems…odd.
Glennis Waterman
@Marc: What’s the ISIS “angle”? Please tell us, because obviously you must know something that law enforcement doesn’t.
This guy called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS, apparently. So, is it the same as those two jerks in Boston who beat up a homeless guy and “pledged allegiance” to Donald Trump?
D58826
Daesh version of ‘AP’ is claiming the he is an Islamic state fighter. large grain of salt is in order.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Oy… I didn’t even make the connection that that was his father. Its unclear what the dad’s deal is, but if I remember correctly there was speculation it was some sort of political satire, other that he’s attempting a con on the Afghan American community. Given that he speaks Dari, which is the Afghan dialect of Persian/Farsi and is largely spoken in the Western part of the country.
lamh36
I won’t lie, when I saw an interview of someone who was in the club who didn’t want to be identified (they showed him from the neck down) I begin thinking about the folks who may have lost their lives, who may not have been completely out to their families or friends for whatever reason…
Imagining the aftermath of their homegoing…hearbreaking
Keith G
@Luthe: I like the quote in the box that you provided. There are many gay communities in a city. Some may be only a couple of dozen strong and have been with each other through quite a lot. As I said early, many families and even more circles of friends and lovers have been viciously gutted. I am trying to imagine the pain. It’s like the way AIDS devastated some communities, but in one night.
But…I fail to see why some here seem to be fronting the position that an attack on a Gay community could not also be an attack fueled religious beliefs corrupted by Islamic extremism. WTF?
I am thinking that that is what’s most likely, but for the record I am not putting my chips on any color just yet.
The Thin Black Duke
Bottom line, it doesn’t matter what the voices in this asshole’s head told him what to do. What matters is how easy it was for this asshole to get a weapon that only belongs in the hands of a soldier and not a civilian, period. It’s a lot harder to kill somebody if the only thing thing you’re armed with is bad intentions.
trollhattan
@Cacti:
Especially gay GOP anti-gay folks. WTF is wrong with those people?
aimai
@D58826: You dont’ have to be the “public speaker” that Bill and Obama are to manage to speak movingly on such a topic. Obama’s speech today was not exactly a soaring flight of fancy. I admire Obama as much or more than the next BJ’er but the idea that neither Bill nor Hillary could deliver a moving speech on the topic of gun violence and death in a moment of national crisis is just ridiculous. Amaranthine RBG also put Trump in the same line up as Bill and Hillary. This is just insulting.
Glennis Waterman
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
How true. And contrast BHO’s message with that of Presidential hopeful Donald Trump: “See, I was right, wasn’t I? Congratulate me!” Disgusting.
D58826
@Glennis Waterman: I think the distinction is whither Marteen trained with ISIS vs just being inspired by ISIS websites, i.e. directed vs inspirational. These things don’t happen in a vacuum
trollhattan
@The Thin Black Duke:
Yes, to the infinity.
Adam L Silverman
@The Dangerman: No worries. The person I was referring to is originally from Central or Eastern Europe and has an accent.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: why is it odd that he would be speaking Dari? It’s one of the national languages.
Mart
@boatboy_srq: Representative Peter King on MSNBC – ISIS, ISIS, TERROR, TERROR, Boogetty BOO – Europe is scared TOO.
Shawn in ShowMe
@Elizabelle:
You have to operate in the culture you have, not the one you wish you had. Muslims are going to get thrown under the bus for this by millions of American citizens. If another ISIS-inspired shooting happens in the near future, it won’t be safe for Muslim families to live in certain cities. Harping about biased media coverage isn’t going to change anything. Real Muricans tolerate the presence of the other as long the other minds their own business. Once real Muricans feel their lives are threatened, all bets are off.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: The civilized godly British, they draw lines on paper and generations upon generations pay the price in blood. In 1947, Pathans were not too happy about joining Pakistan when the particulars of the partition were being discussed. Pathans of the NWFP (North West Frontier Province) had a Gandhian leader at that time, Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan. He was affectionately called Sarhad Gandhi (Border Gandhi). His organization was marginalized by the military brass after Pakistan’s formation and he was hounded, arrested, exiled and so on.
Imagine if the Pathans, had a pacifist leader now.
D58826
Being a lone wolf, influenced by anti LGBT talk in the US and influenced by Daesh/AQ are not inconsistent.
trollhattan
@aimai:
My thought is that Hillary is as effective one-on-one and with small groups as any of them. That she brings the unique viewpoint of a mother and grandmother is of great value as well.
In any case, this isn’t a debate tournament with trophies at stake.
hovercraft
Tameron Hall on msnbc just interviewed Billy Manes of Watermark a LGBT newspaper in Orlando, it was really touching. He emphasized how small the community is, he got a call from his parents this morning to see if he is alive, he can’t reach friends, outside the club this morning the sister of a friend coming up to him to ask if her brother is alive. He believes that the targeting of a gay nightclub is part of the backlash to the progress made in the last few years. He said that hate is the culprit. He also mentioned the need to regulate guns, he said he lost a spouse, who committed suicide by shooting off hiss face in front of him. For him this tragedy was very personal, right now he doesn’t know how many of his friends are hurt or dead. He lives in fear and so does his community everyday because of who they are.
Carolina Dave
@mark: I did it four weeks ago. I don’t miss it. Except for Game of Thrones. My wife is especially happy because when she comes home from work the news is not on in the background usually discussing what stupid think Trump said today.
Oh good Little Marco is on my 4 channel TV now. Like I said above.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Yes, but the Taliban are Pashtu and speak Pashto and come from a different part of Afghanistan that the Dari speakers. Are there some educated and urbanized Pashtuns that speak Dari? Yes. Do some even live in Western Afghanistan? Yes. But there is a disconnect of a Dari speaker speaking about sympathy with the Taliban and concerned with the Durand Line.
burnspbesq
Fuckers are winning. Think about it from this perspective. Imagine you’re the parent of a gay kid who wants to attend a pride event today. What the fuck do you tell them?
gogol's wife
@lamh36:
That is shattering.
gogol's wife
@burnspbesq:
They are not winning.
trollhattan
@D58826:
The Dylann Roof parallels might prove strong, lacking only the Christian and race matches.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: Ahha, thank you. Filed under “huh. weird.” for now.
Peale
@D58826: yep. We’ll see. It’s too early to know. I’m sure his travel records are going to be out there and leaked in a few days if they show any travel out of the country that fuels the “Isis on our doorstep” narrative. If his family or friends are going to have their lives turned upside down, too.
Corner Stone
@trollhattan:
I honestly think someone has talked HRC into turning the dial on her NFLTG meter a few notches toward zero. Did you see her speech at Planned Parenthood? There was no cautious triangulating in that speech. She went balls out on that one and I thought her Tuesday acceptance speech was one of the better I have seen from a politician outside of Obama in just about forever. Not to even mention that scathing ripfest she dropped all over Trump’s ass.
Glennis Waterman
@D58826: Yes, that’s obvious. However, it appeared to me that poster Marc was conflating those two notions.
burnspbesq
@gogol’s wife:
Tell that to the families of the dead.
Peale
@Adam L Silverman: maybe he was just hired to do a show in Dari on a cable channel and talked about his issues. Like there can’t be a whole lot of candidates to fill the Dari time slot on an us cable channel.
Corner Stone
@hovercraft:
I saw most of that and it was heartbreaking. I kept waiting for him to make the clear connection between how scared he feels when he leaves his house and the anti-gay vitriol the GOP and their enablers have stirred up since just about forever. If he did it might have been when I stepped away, but did not see it.
gogol's wife
@burnspbesq:
As a close relative of a murder victim, I believe that violence and killing is not equal to “winning.”
father pussbucket
@D58826:
She will have to choose between “cold” and “emotional”. Maybe it will be her “angry black guy” problem.
rikyrah
@Keith G:
Yes, it is speculation. I simply don’t believe that that club was chosen randomly.
Emma
@Marc: You’ve never heard the American Taliban quote chapter and verse of the Bible on why we should kill gays, have you? What a narrow life you must lead.
Peale
@burnspbesq: that the community has faced many bad days like this and we’re still here and aren’t going anywhere. Seriously, I don’t expect pride to be as big as it was the year Cuomo signed the marriage bill, but we’ll be out there in large numbers.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Damn lamh. That would be too heartbreaking for words. ???
trollhattan
@Corner Stone:
Agree, and I think she’s getting more comfortable in her skin as the campaign goes on. Having “watched” her last Sunday from outside the over-filled hall, she spoke well and really connected with the crowd, inside and out. I see quite a few political events at the capital, some scripted, some not so much, and the level of excitement at this one was the match of any. I came away feeling good about the state of her campaign.
Corner Stone
@rikyrah:
It clearly was not. Is someone saying he just happened to pop into a known LGBT bar and start this? I think Keith’s suggestion is that this disturbed individual could have had many, any or no reason to hate gay people and to posit that it was repressed gay self-loathing may be a bit out there at the present time, and does not help the community that was victimized/targeted.
satby
@Marc: you know, any jmoke can call 911 and dedicate their mass murder to ISIS without ever actually having any contact at all with ISIS. Which is probably what this guy did. All in the name of rage, homophobia, and probably his desire to be significant in death, since he clearly wasn’t in life.
redshirt
ISIS is apparently claiming responsibility.
Bunch of evil trolls.
trollhattan
@redshirt:
Fuckers probably claim the Oregon Bakken train derailment and Zika.
Betty Cracker
Christ is Rick Scott a creepy motherfucker and a terrible speaker. Still not used to it after six years.
Cacti
It’s neither crass nor inappropriate to mention at this time that one party holds gay hate as an official policy position, and one does not.
Both sides don’t do it.
trollhattan
Voldemort is on my radio, threatening future Florida terrorists that Florida be tough and shit. Switching to music.
D58826
It’s a terrible way to get a silver lining but as authority figures and everyday gay folks and their families appear on TV, the basic humanity of all come across. Maybe it will change a few minds. The video of the mother who can’t find her son could be any mom looking for her missing son gay or straight.
Shawn in ShowMe
@Emma:
There are religious people who were born and raised in the United States who don’t have a connection to American religious culture at all. Happens all the time.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@burnspbesq:
I am. He does. I told him to keep his eyes and ears open and be careful.
Doing a lot of worrying today.
Peale
@redshirt: well, the good news is that it isn’t some group of loveable terrorists who I used to love. So I can’t say I’m disappointed or more angry than I was before. Like if it turned out that the Kiwanis Club sponsored the shooter, I’d have to re-assess my feelings about them.
Corner Stone
@Betty Cracker: Pam Bondi is no upgrade either, except in the looks department. She is a very poor speaker ex temp.
Villago Delenda Est
@Marc: The “ISIS connection” is based on rumor. Not fact. It’s a great excuse for the wingnuts, though, to ignore who the attack was aimed at (gays) and concentrate on the suspect, and of course ignore that he was a licensed “good guy” until he started shooting.
Gimlet
Background – Disturbed individual
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/ex-wife-of-suspected-orlando-shooter-he-beat-me/2016/06/12/8a1963b4-30b8-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html
The ex-wife of the 29-year-old man suspected of killing 50 people in a Orlando nightclub early Sunday said that he was violent and mentally unstable and beat her repeatedly while they were married.
The ex-wife said she met Omar Mateen online about eight years ago
“He was not a stable person,” said the ex-wife “He beat me. He would just come home and start beating me up because the laundry wasn’t finished or something like that.”
“He seemed like a normal human being,” she said, adding that he wasn’t very religious and worked out at the gym often. She said in the few months they were married he gave no signs of having fallen under the sway of radical Islam. She said he owned a small-caliber handgun and worked as a guard at a nearby facility for juvenile delinquents.
“He was a very private person,” she said.
The ex-wife said her parents intervened when they learned Mateen had assaulted her. Her father confirmed the account and said that the marriage lasted only a few months. The two formally divorced in 2011.
redshirt
@Peale: It scares me a bit since ISIS seems to show enough social media savvy to play the game. Trump is playing the same game. They both benefit each other – ISIS is great for the Republicans and vice versa. That’s what’s so messed up about the Republicans today – they’d probably be sincerely happy if ISIS was behind this so they can use that to build more fear in America, take away more rights, plunge us ever deeper into the pit of despair.
Fundamentalists are all the same regardless of their team colors.
? Martin
@burnspbesq:
Resorting to violence to make your point is not winning – it’s evidence of losing. It may take a while and it may be expensive, but eventually they lose for good.
Sloegin
@Peale: Could be construed that not only does the Lt. Gov support the killing of gays, but that he also declared allegiance to ISIS.
rikyrah
The killer lived 125 miles away?
Oh yes, this club was targeted.
D58826
@Villago Delenda Est: The FBI is the lead agency. That puts to rest any doubt as to whither this is being viewed as a terrorist attack -domestic or international.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@Villago Delenda Est:
ISIS hates gays. Wingnuts hate gays. More than coincidence?
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: She’s usually way smoother than that. Before she went full metal wingnut, she was a county level state’s attorney spokes-bot and TV news fave.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@? Martin:
The Japanese in WW2 didn’t START with the kamikazes.
schrodinger's cat
@Actually, Bob IS My Uncle: Fundies of almost all religions do. Also too, they like to keep women in their place.
Betty Cracker
FBI now saying the killer was interviewed twice in 2013 / 2014 — once for making statements to coworkers that indicated that he supported terrorism and once for a connection to an American suicide bomber. No restrictions on his gun rights though because the investigations were “inconclusive.” ATF says the killer purchased the guns legally — recently.
Corner Stone
@Betty Cracker: Haven’t seen as much of her as you have but she was dying on the dais doing Donald’s debut. She’s certainly blond enough for a TV career in wingnuttia, if nothing else.
joel hanes
@Adam L Silverman:
this wasn’t an automatic weapon.
Unfortunately, this is a distinction about how the weapon works, not about its killing power.
Modern civilian military-wannabe semiautomatics are not much less deadly than a full-auto.
If you want to actually kill people with an AK or an M16, you put it on semi-auto (like the AR-15 you can buy through the mail) and fire short bursts, and re-aim between bursts.
If you want to make armed enemies take cover while your friends run toward them, you put it on full-auto and spray the area, but you probably won’t kill anyone in the process.
Without training, it’s tough to actually hit anything with a full-auto weapon after the second round or so.
The M16 wants to climb; unless you pull it down, your fourth and subsequent shots will go in the air over the heads of your targets.
Former SP4 Hanes
ETA : fixed guns, like the 30 and 50 cal machine guns the Army uses, are a different story, but they are almost impossible to hipfire effectively. They’re intended for vehicular mount, tripod emplacement, area defense. Also, they’re very very difficult to carry without attracting attention.
hovercraft
@Betty Cracker:
He is on Donald’s VP shortlist Right? He’d give darth vader a run for his money on who is more souless.
Peale
@Sloegin: it’s fair to speculate I think. I mean, he was more than happy to quote the bible before the shooters identity was known. I wonder if he’s happy or disappointed that the shooter is who he is. Someone should stuff a microphone in his face and ask him if he’s pleased that the agent of gods justice isn’t an upstanding Christian like himself.
Mary G
I’m glad to see the long lines outside of the blood banks in Florida after a call for donations when out. Donald Trump’s tweets are despicable. I despair of ever getting the guns out of America.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
See, the system works (the system for getting guns in the hands of exactly the wrong people). Great country, or greatest country?
Betty Cracker
@hovercraft: I can’t believe Trump would actually pick him. He’s the worst retail politician ever, and while he won two elections here in FL, he never won 50% of the vote. I hope Trump does pick him. It would be disastrous.
Mart
@joel hanes: Saw an interview with the guy who invented the M16 / AR15 and he noted it excelled at killing as the bullet tumbles when it hits flesh ripping the victims innards to shreds helping to assure death versus injury. He is dismayed it has been sold by the millions to civilians.
burnspbesq
@gogol’s wife:
You utterly missed the point I was making.
? Martin
@Betty Cracker: Perhaps we should make blood donation mandatory with ammunition purchase. Pint per box.
Gimlet
The Donald, acting Presidential on Twitter
Horrific incident in FL. Praying for all the victims & their families. When will this stop? When will we get tough, smart & vigilant?
Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism, I don’t want congrats, I want toughness & vigilance. We must be smart!
Is President Obama going to finally mention the words radical Islamic terrorism? If he doesn’t he should immediately resign in disgrace!
Reporting that Orlando killer shouted “Allah hu Akbar!” as he slaughtered clubgoers.
joel hanes
@Mart:
Yea, the heavier slug of the M1 tended to punch neat holes right through the VietNamese, while the M16 maimed or killed.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@Gimlet:
“I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I also support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun.” ~Donald Trump, from his book The America We Deserve
hovercraft
@Mart:
A former ATF agent was on earlier saying that the carnage inflicted by those bullets is why law enforcement does not use them. But I guess those good guys have a ‘right’ to them. God bless America.
Iowa Old Lady
@Gimlet: The man can’t resist stirring up trouble.
JPL
@Gimlet: I saw that earlier. I also saw this tweet
Liberals: It’s Guns
Conservatives: It’s Terrorism
Trump: Thank you, I’m awesome
Gimlet
@Actually, Bob IS My Uncle:
In the words of the prophet:
“But that was yesterday, and yesterday’s gone”
Andy
@satby: –Exactly. Get a grip. The “Trifecta” of WOT propaganda.
gogol's wife
@burnspbesq:
So what was your point? You said, “The fuckers are winning.” I disagree. I do hope the families of the victims do not feel that way. We can’t let them win. There are more of us than there are of them, and our numbers are growing every day.
opiejeanne
Gawd, what a toxic swamp Twitter is right now, and I’m not even going to open my Facebook page. Balloon Juice has been my haven for several months because of the primaries, but the homophobia, xenophobia, outright hatred of The Other, fear, ignorance, and intolerance has just worked my last nerve Some twit who can hardly speak English was ranting at me on Twitter about immigrants and that the shooter couldn’t be a citizen of the US because his parents weren’t born here (or something. His/her English was so poor I couldn’t understand half of what they were saying).
I’m going back outside in a minute to pull a few more weeds and help string lights for the wedding in July. Doing this with the bride and groom helping is more fun and much less stressful, but I want to thank the people here at BJ for helping to keep me sane, even a couple of the trolls.
hovercraft
@Gimlet:
He needs to understand this is a national tragedy, he needs to put a statement not a tweet storm.
Elizabelle
We need a pet picture thread. Are Lovey or Thurston or Lily or Rosie up to anything interesting?
Can be blurry. Just needs to be a lovable pet. Steve. A bird. Anything.
Ruckus
@gogol’s wife:
Sorry about your relative.
But burnsy didn’t say they had won, only they they are winning. And at this point is sure looks like they are to me. Are gun purchases restricted in any meaningful way? No. Can you purchase a semi-auto weapon with extended magazines? Yes. Can you purchase all the ammo you want? Yes. Is the republican nominee for president a bigot, of every type of targeted group? Yes he sure is. Will he win? It is possible if not likely. Does congress (and many state legislators) have more than a few members who, while they may not agree with shooting up a club, work towards getting all civil rights laws overturned and writing new ones that effectively turn the US into what ISIS wants? Yes. That sounds like winning to me.
And once again, no they haven’t won, not by any stretch. Is the country going in their direction? Maybe, maybe not but it sure isn’t going in the other direction very well either.
Now all of this is twisted this morning by this horrible act and our reactions to it, but is anything I used as evidence wrong?
opiejeanne
@Gimlet: Er, Chad and Jeremy are The Prophet?
Adam L Silverman
@joel hanes: I am aware of all of that. I had to certify with the M4 prior to deploying to Iraq in 2008. As well as the M9.
Elizabelle
Also. Tonys tonight. Belmont yesterday. Lin Manuel Mirada or a horsey. Anything will do.
Gimlet
@hovercraft:
He needs to understand this is a national tragedy, he needs to put a statement not a tweet storm.
He is, after all, that rarest of birds – a compassionate conservative.
Amaranthine RBG
@Miss Bianca: I thought he came pretty close to that with his “We have to decide what sort of country we want to be” line. The subtext being, I tried to tell you fuckers but you never listen ….
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Ruckus: ‘Winners’ most often aren’t left resorting to terrorism and fascism to accomplish their goals.
opiejeanne
@JPL: It’s guns, homophobia, and all of the religions that promote homophobia, not just Islam. I mean, that idiot Lt Governor of Texas is just as bad and he’s probably a Southern Baptist.
Gimlet
@opiejeanne:
All our poets – songwriters are prophets as well as “The words of the prophet are written on the subway walls…”
Cermet
@Actually, Bob IS My Uncle: Bet you that idea is dead and gone; tRump will jump as high as the NRA demands; he may be a lousy business man but he isn’t stupid.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Betty Cracker: Rick Scott was horrible in the press conference I just heard on NPR. The first words were “Of course this is terrorism…” and then nothing about the people who were actually being terrorized other than the generic “pray for the families, etc.”. He’s gotta keep pushing the narrative that of course this wasn’t a targeting of some particular group of people. “I declared a state of emergency!” As if that’s going to help those poor dead kids, but it sure will show everyone how tough he is.
It’s horrible. The woman who followed him was much, much better, at least in the initial part of her statement.
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
RaflW
(Un)holy crap! I just fired up the various media machines at 2pm, so I was till then unaware of the mass slaughter, misery, and so on.
Jeepers, we are one seriously fucked up country. And here I was, thinking about our planned fall trip to Rome and wondering about terrorism. Turns out the BF and I could be mowed down with great ease right here in the U.S. of A.
And now we’ll be treated to the right trying to figure out how to thread the needle of being anti-Islamic will also not looking like they ‘condone’ gay people.
hovercraft
@Gimlet:
Which one do you want making decisions on your behalf?
For some reason Trump’s tweet didn’t copy but you already saw that.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: Just posted something to take your mind off of things.
James E Powell
@aimai:
I find the fact that people are having an argument about politicians’ relative skills in giving a speech after an event like this even more ridiculous.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@rikyrah:
The shooter’s selfies set off my gaydar. I think you’re right on. There’s nothing more toxic than extremist ideology, deep denial and self hatred. The GOP “family values” ideology brings us news of this phenomenon every day.
Villago Delenda Est
@hovercraft: He’s only basking in the adulation of his slack jawed base. It’s what he does. The tragedy is just a pretense for more adulation of Teh Donald.
This is about as “Presidential” as this vile fuck is capable of.
joel hanes
@Adam L Silverman:
I knew you knew.
Sorry about seeming to condescend. My intention was to amplify your point: automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, and that does very little to avert this kind of attack, because available weapons that don’t meet the definition of full-auto are extremely deadly.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
JPL
@opiejeanne: The Lt. Gov’s office released a statement saying that the tweet was scheduled before the attack. hahahhahahahha
If they want to identify religion every time there is a murder, I don’t have a problem with that. My son was near the bomb at Olympic Park in Atlanta. Rudolph was a radical evangelical terrorist who went on to maim a planned parenthood worker and leave a bomb at a gay night club. I do have a problem blaming one religion…. Gee.. My Senator prayed for the President’s death at an evangelical conference.
gene108
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Unless you are rolling around the isle of a grocery store, in the middle of a panic attack, it is very hard to figure out the severity of someone’s mental health issues.
Too many people plow through life with mental health problems, not willing to seek treatment because of the stigma around mental illness – such as being told, “person ‘A’ has problems too, and you don’t see him (or her) moping around, you need to quit pitying yourself and try harder” – and are able to manage their day-to-day lives after a fashion, i.e. pay their bills, hold down a job, bath daily, etc. even though they are miserable inside.
Getting a wrong mental health diagnosis is not uncommon.
Gimlet
@hovercraft:
In this context either would suffice.
Would argue that terrorism doesn’t quite fit, maybe emotionally violent anger-rage-hate. Not sure what apparent goals there are to the act.
Act of terrorism – the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear.
Ruckus
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
Very true. And once again neither Burnsy nor myself said they are winners, only that they are winning. Maybe this is the wrong time for semantics, it probably is very much the wrong time so I’ll change it up, they are ahead. Doesn’t mean they will be successful, doesn’t mean they are in any way right, but they (the bigots/haters) are ahead on points right now. The guns and the threat have enabled them to stay ahead. Yes we just got gay marriage. We haven’t got the guns nor a not that small section of the political ideology yet. The enemy is still out there and scoring points. They are passing laws and killing people. That may be the actions of a losing side but they are still out there doing both.
If you want, neither side is winning. But at least 50 people lost their lives and many more lost friends and lovers. That isn’t winning.
Adam L Silverman
@joel hanes: No worries. Hard to tell sometimes in virtual. And I’ve been tending to this crap since about 9 AM, so sorry if I was snippy. I really should finally go have breakfast.
hovercraft
@Villago Delenda Est:
He is a narcissist, everything demonstrates his brilliance, everything else is secondary.
And his fans just eat it up.
joel hanes
@Adam L Silverman:
snippy
You weren’t. I was unclear, and my native tendency toward pomposity was showing.
peace
Matt McIrvin
@Marc: Yeah, so suppose it’s an organized attack by ISIS. What do we do about the ISIS angle? I guarantee you the response of the American body politic to that is going to be “elect Donald Fucking Trump and persecute Muslims,” which will be worse than useless.
lamh36
I mean don’t folks think that ISIS would exploit this one “inspired” act by a guy who may not even be politically part of the group
D58826
LA cops may have prevented another tragedy
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/06/12/la-cops-stop-armed-man-headed-to-gay-pride-parade.html
lamh36
Heartbreaking stuff…
Text messages between a child and mom during the Orlando mass shooting at club pulse
Some commenting saying this person survived
lamh36
It was Latin night at the club, so you can expect to see alot of Hispanic surnames…
@ABC 2m2 minutes ago
4 victims of Orlando mass shooting have been identified; at least 50 people were killed. http://abcn.ws/1OjYZzn
Elie
@gene108:
Many people with mental illness do not really think they are ill. Paranoia can feel empowering to some and they can have very organized planning skills. Many times their families do not fully know the scope and frequently deny it even when they have a suspicion or even evidence. Some families are afraid of their mentally ill members. Even when many go to a therapist or doctor, it is not uncommon to refuse medication or go off of meds because the medication changes the way they think and that can be disturbing. Medications also have other side effects that can be unpleasant. Sedation and suicidal thoughts are two. Finally, there are psychiatrists and therapists who avoid caring for severely ill people — especially violent folks because they can become targets themselves. Selfish on one hand, but who can blame them completely? It takes special skills and a very special soul to want to care for this group of patients. Its a huge dilemma for our society that is growing in importance given the availability of guns and social media/internet allowing expression, amplification and connection to sources that feed on pathology and enhance motivation of very ill people to seek targets.
PaulWartenberg2016
I have a guy on my Facebook feed, I have to because he’s tied into me via work so I can’t unfriend him, who’s posting anti-Muslim stuff and saying “oh watch liberals talk about banning guns instead of banning Islam”. I’m doing what I can to talk him down – trying to point out how Muslims are NOT the problem here, the Angry Guy With Easy Access to Guns is – but I doubt he’ll listen. He’s too invested into his pro-Trump, anti-Obama anti-Hillary BS.
I dread how where I live I am surrounded by otherwise normal, reasonably coherent people who unfortunately buy into the worst possible shit about racism and sexism all because they’ve been programmed to by their political leanings.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Matt McIrvin: I see you’re part of the liberal cohort that somehow thinks every election year is 1980.
Deadbeat Donald is already calling on Obama to resign because he didn’t call this ‘radical Islam’. He’s a belligerence asshole playing to a crowd that stopped being demographically relevant ages ago, and he’s not even playing all that well. The Reagan Democrats are Republicans now. Whatever inroads Deadbeat makes on the whtie working class he’s losing every other demographic hand over fist.
In short: Chill the fuck out. She’s got this.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Ruckus: We lost a lot of good men at Guadacanal and Anzio and Omaha Beach, so I guess neither side was winning there. Or if you want something more relevant, substitute Shiloh, Antietam, and Gettysburg. Or all the blood shed at Selma.
Yes, its going to be hard. It very well actually is bloody. But it doesn’t mean they’re ‘winning’. It only means we become even more vigilant.
gogol's wife
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
Thank you.
Thoughtful David
This attack has much more in common with the gunman killing people at Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs last November than with, say, the 911 attacks: religious extremist nutcase targets a specific group he doesn’t like.
If our failed media experiment were any good, they’d be asking the conservatives now screaming about terrorists why they weren’t screaming about terrorism then?
lamh36
Finally one thing I can agree with Brian Williams on MSNBC
Folks have to understand difference between ISIS “inspired” vs ISIS “directed”
Peale
@lamh36: yeah. Although I do want that “directed” to be investigated, that’s not the same thing as concluding that it was. I really do want to know.
PaulWartenberg2016
and now the guy on the Facebook feed is getting ready to defriend ME because he thinks I’m accusing all gun-owners – himself included – of being Angry Guy Domestic Abusers. Which is far from what I’m saying: I’m saying Angry Guys (especially Domestic Abusers, who are a main source of mass shootings) with Easy Access to Guns is the problem, not gun owners in general.
that’s the thing though: an attack on one group of gun owners – the Angry Guys – gets viewed as an assault on ALL gun owners many of whom honestly DO NOT shoot up schools or movie theaters or churches. so there it is.
Matt McIrvin
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
More 2004. Fretting about the presidential election is probably inappropriate here, but this stuff is potent. I guess the question is whether it becomes “who do you trust to handle a crisis?” or “who do you want kicked out of the country?”
Ruckus
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
I agree with you. I’m not even saying they will be ahead tomorrow.
I just also see that one has to be realistic about a situation. Adam does this for the military for a living. Asses the situation, try to find ways to mitigate it, find ways to change minds, try to find ways not to make things worse. This is not one isolated incident, this shooting. It may very well be the last grasps of a very much losing segment of the population. But it is still a very deadly segment and is not afraid of weapons or using them. Will more of this insanity happen before the tide gets stronger? We thought that Sandy Hook surely would be a changing point in the guns side, it wasn’t. Those who would not be swayed by kids getting killed, I’d bet a lot of money that 50 gay people won’t do it either. Sandy Hook should have, so should this allow a change, why do you think it will?
I don’t have many currently workable answers, because I know the enemy is fucking crazy. I do have lots of questions but I’m also sure that I won’t like most of the answers. But not knowing and just wishing won’t work.
D58826
AP is reporting that the guy arrested in LA with guns and explosives said he wanted to ‘harm’ the gay pride parade.
opiejeanne
@Gimlet: I have long noticed a streak of clever and/or excellent writing in some performers’ lyrics, between all the “yeah, yeah, yeah” stuff, not that there’s anything wrong with the “yeah yeah yeah” stuff. Michael Penn’s lyrics have amused me as have those of Sting and more. It always makes me stop and listen more carefully when there’s a sly literary reference or a social or political one.
No One You Know
@? Martin: This. Yes.
(118)
We are not helped by assuming the problem should fit the very comfortable “blame the other” model. We have met the enemy; and he is us. All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the better solution.
Mai.naem.mobile
@Keith G: I’m sorry I shouldn’t have said anything like that without solid proof.