UPDATE: The next law enforcement update has been rescheduled for 10:30 AM EDT.
The next law enforcement update press conference is scheduled for 9:30 10:30 AM EDT. The link to the live feed at WFTV Channel 9 in Orlando is below. Please remember: this is a fluid situation, the information being reported out is going to change, sometimes swinging widely, over the next 24 to 48 hour.
http://www.wftv.com/watch-live
Baud
It’s already changed. There was speculation early on about two shooters, but it looks like it’s only one.
BruceFromOhio
Shakezula has provided a helpful script over at LGM.
PaulWartenberg2016
@BruceFromOhio:
rage-inducingly accurate depiction of how the next week is going to go.
Trump is bound to use this as a campaign issue to ratchet up the anti-Muslim rhetoric and promote more use of Torture to save us all.
EZSmirkzz
And to think, some people have the temerity to say we live in the stupidest country on Earth.
Punchy
Has Don Lemon opined that this was the work of aliens coming through black holes?
Elizabelle
Chyron: Shooter identified as Omar Mateen.
Gad. I was betting on Kenny Wayne Otis.
Adam L Silverman
The next law enforcement press conference has now been pushed back to 10:30 AM EDT.
Adam L Silverman
WFTV is reporting that the shooter has been identified as Omar Mateen from Port St. Lucie.
Dork
@Elizabelle: sounds sufficiently Brown for the cable networks to just assume Islamic terrorism.
rikyrah
Why that club?
JPL
@Adam L Silverman: He was born in 1986 to parents from Afghanistan. Unfortunately, now we have to identify where the parents are from.
Poopyman
Ya know, Florida Man is just not that funny anymore.
debbie
@Baud:
They call it the Information Age, about no one said anything about accuracy. Much more important to be first than to be right.
I remember at the time of the Ft. Hood shooting, even the Army’s spokesman gave incorrect information (shooter had been killed).
rikyrah
Was his gun legally bought?
Did he have a conceal carry permit?
American or foreign born?
Was he LGBT himself?
Adam L Silverman
@Dork: His parents were Afghan immigrants. Unclear when they immigrated, but he was a US citizen.
Keith G
Omar S Mateen is ID’do as the shooter.
But don’t forget that this was a shooting in a club which was the gathering point for a minority within a minority. With more than 20 deaths and 40 other casualties, there are going to be a lot of families and circles of friends with more than one victim. This is heart breaking for what is probably a close knit community.
EZSmirkzz
@Elizabelle: I thought it might be Johnny Pissed Off Jr,
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: He was a US citizen with no criminal history, according to news reports I’m seeing. That means he could waltz into any gun store and come out with an arsenal as long as he had the cash.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: It would be interesting to find out, if he was on a watch list. Since the nightclub had security, it wasn’t necessarily a soft target.
Miss Bianca
WTeverlovin’F.
Maybe I oughta just go back to bed.
Iowa Old Lady
@rikyrah: Like the Planned Parenthood shooting, the target suggests motives other than “hating our freedom.”
D58826
@Betty Cracker: Pete Williams is reporting that he had popped up on an FBI scan a couple of years ago but nothing to warrant any kind of followup. Sounds a bit like the Boston Bomber scenario.
The Dangerman
@PaulWartenberg2016:
Next week? Sheeeee-et, every day until the election. At least San Bernardino (where I was born) won’t be mentioned nearly as often (since California isn’t a swing state).
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: Almost every venue that does live events in Florida has security. Quite often one or more off duty local law enforcement that are paid to be on site by the venue and in uniform. They also regularly provide the same service at churches, synagogues, and mosques for both regular and holiday worship services, as well as special events throughout Florida.
Large concert and entertainment venues, such as the Florida Amphitheater or the sports stadiums have a combination of local law enforcement and private security.
OzarkHillbilly
@Iowa Old Lady: What are you talking about? It’s a gay club. Sounds to me like he hated our freedom to be openly gay.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: I can send more prerelease in the US clips from Clown?
OzarkHillbilly
@Adam L Silverman: Not just in Florida.
MomSense
This is depressing.
father pussbucket
Seems likely that, whatever his background, his immediate motive was hating gay people.
ruemara
@MomSense: This is America.
MomSense
@Iowa Old Lady:
Even if he were on the “no fly list” and considered concerning by the FBI we still can’t prevent him from buying weapons because freedumb.
Elizabelle
Wouldn’t it be something if there turned out to be a personal disagreement or affiliation with the club?
I wonder if one reason for target was the cover of noise and darkness a nightclub provides. So many people packed so tightly together. Without much ability to see the weapon coming out and the initial firing. The loud noise as another form of cover. The Bataclan. The Aurora CO theatre shooting.
But how did he get in with the weaponry? Was it because it was so late in the evening? Maybe he had watched and knew the doormen took smoke breaks?
Not your typical club goer, even in Florida.
MomSense
@ruemara:
Yup. And I am luckier than many mothers because I’m not terrified that even the police won’t be helpers to my sons.
Seriously my son was pulled over for a brake light and the officer found him driving without pants and shoes. My son made some joke about being hot and got a warning.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: that’s supposed to make me *want* to face the day??
Adam L Silverman
@OzarkHillbilly: I am aware.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: He got in after engaging in a shoot out with the police officer working security at the door of the nightclub. He didn’t sneak anything past security, he moved to actively neutralize the security.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Lesser of two evils. Besides you’re more likely to be attacked by an evil demon possessing your suburban neighbor making him appear to be a clown if you’re at home and hiding in bed.
Miss Bianca
@OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, well…every “right-thinking American” is supposed to hate that freedom.
I don’t see where this madness ends. It just seems like the toll is never high enough. I can’t tell what sort of sea-change it’s going to take in the American consciousness to promote serious changes in gun laws. Maybe our resident criminologist (ahem) has some theories, but I’m coming up dry.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: No idea. One report said he opened fire outside, then ran inside when a cop on security patrol engaged him. But another report said he originally opened fire inside and then ran outside where he encountered the cop, then went back in. I can report it was hotter than hell in Central FL yesterday — even at 2 AM — so anyone wearing a coat or something to conceal a long gun would stand out in a crowd.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Ah. Had missed that. He went in shooting.
So the police shooting back accounts for the original “two shooters” reports. Or might …
OzarkHillbilly
@Adam L Silverman: Just pointing out that it is commonplace practice nearly everywhere. When my step daughter got married my wife hired 2 cops to man the door at the reception in case the poor girl’s a-hole father decided to crash the event. It was nice knowing that neither I, nor the groom, nor the groom’s father or brother were going to have to get punched for ensuring her wishes for a joyful wedding.
D58826
Listening to a MSNBC reporter. He is amazed how quickly we have been able to identify the shooter and his possible links to terror. The investigative process has gotten to be a well organized and well used machine.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: But my vote is special, I can’t just give it away to the lesser of two…
Oh, wait, you’re talking about something else.
Elizabelle
Since no TV, have been surfing websites. Interesting how many US newspapers don’t update much on Sundays, or as frequently during the day. The gutting of staff, at a job where news happens, and quickly.
hovercraft
msnbc says his father says he saw two gay men kissing on the street was angered and that may be the cause of the shooting.
So it may be a hate crime,
hovercraft
50 casualties plus 53 injured
Mike in NC
Just another humdrum day in America. From our time spent in central Florida, gun shops are more plentiful than liquor stores or 7-11s.
D58826
@hovercraft: I thought that’s what he said. It just gets worse and worse
PhoenixRising
They hate us for our freedoms.
No, really. I assumed this was another Eric Rudolph, like the assault on a gay bar 20 years ago during the Atlanta Olympics.
Turns out it’s the other kind of soldier at war with modernity.
But those of us who live in the most open society ever anywhere, it’s all the same thing: Bullets have to stop what G-d dislikes.
Koran, Bible, it’s just adjusted for native language.
Betty Cracker
@hovercraft: I don’t doubt it was a hate crime at all given the venue, but it’s hard to believe it was a spur of the moment thing given the firepower. Regardless, it’s times like this I’m sorry I don’t believe there’s a hell for that bastard to roast in — what a piece of shit.
OzarkHillbilly
@hovercraft: At least 20 dead, 42 wounded, seems pretty apparent he hated somebody.
Betty Cracker
50 dead. Jesus.
D58826
@Betty Cracker: but at least here in NC the bathrooms are safe (bitter bitter angry snark)
raven
@OzarkHillbilly: 50 dead now.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@hovercraft: The BBC has a crawler saying 50 dead. “Casualty” is one of those words that seems to have morphed in meaning. It traditionally means “killed or injured” – it seems to have morphed into a nicer way of saying “killed”.
:-(
What a horror.
Cheers,
Scott.
JWR
@hovercraft: Not just 50 causalities, but 50 dead! And this doesn’t take into account the condition of those in the various ER’s. Good lord…
hovercraft
@D58826:
Regardless of the cause terror or hate crime, though actually they are both the same the only difference is who they seek to terrorize, this is horrific.
D58826
If there was a god this man would be reduced to a pile of stinking ash
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/06/12/anti-lgbt-texas-lt-gov-tweets-man-reaps-what-he-sows.html
JanieM
@Keith G:
I just got up and haven’t read the threads thoroughly. What is the second minority? (All I see mentioned is LGBTQ.)
JanieM
@D58826: And I wonder what the 7-year-olds at Sandy Hook sowed to reap what happened to them.
A pile of stinking ash is more than he deserves.
OzarkHillbilly
@raven: Haysus motherfvckin christo on a tortilla chip.
Matt McIrvin
@JanieM: It was “Latin Night”, I think.
Klown
He’s a Democrat. http://voters.findthedata.com/d/b/Omar-Mateen
Elizabelle
Fifty. Dreadful. That’s a lot for one shooter, is it not? And another 53 injured? Are they sure it is just one shooter?
Found it interesting the police would just say “about 20” dead, which is still up on NYTimes site.
OzarkHillbilly
@D58826: Someone should remind that asshole that the sons shall pay for the sins of the father.
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
Just curious, do you get any sense the shooter had military training?
Mike in NC
Assuming gun shops in most places are closed on Sunday, there’s going to be a huge spike in sales of guns and ammo tomorrow.
Bailey
@Elizabelle:
Why interesting? That was just their initial estimate and probably wouldn’t have included anyone taken to the hospital where other victims may have died.
Klown
@Klown: The racist rhetoric of Donald Trump is probably what radicalized him.
raven
@Elizabelle: It’s not that hard in a closed space.
Emma
@Klown: Today isn’t really the day, ok? Save the bullsh_t for another time.
GOVCHRIS1988
50 dead. Just damn. Prayers and comfort to the family and friends. I wish I had the power to give more.
https://youtu.be/8APoaoNxIak
OzarkHillbilly
@Elizabelle: The total casualty #s are comparable to Aurora CO theater shooting. An assault rifle with an expanded round magazine can do a lot of damage to human beings real quick. That’s why they exist.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@Baud:
This is why I hate this reporting of speculation and unconfirmed rumors. Now it’s guaranteed that some conspiracy theorists will be talking about “the real shooter the cops let get away.”
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Now the BBC crawler is saying the Mayor said 50 casualties. Some policeman with lots of medals is speaking…
I assume the numbers are going to change during the day.
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: No, but the vast majority of Americans don’t have military training. Could he have taken some private, tactical firearm courses? Sure. Did he? I have no idea. And I’m not sure anyone else does yet.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: If the killer used an AR-15 or similar style rifle, he could easily fire 60 rounds in a minute, so yeah, one shooter could have killed that many, particularly in a crowded space.
ETA: And the FBI just said it was an AR-15.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@Klown:
And so it begins.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: horrifying
Loviatar
@D58826:
I keep saying it. Republicans do not see anyone different from them as worthy of respect or empathy. They see Democrats as their enemy, somebody to be defeated and crushed. This bullshitt about 11 dimensional chess is wasted on them, in their mind there will be no compromise.
You can compromise with an opponent, you can only defeat an enemy.
scav
@D58826: Good to see the religious uniting in their commual self-avowed and self-defined morally superior hatred of difference and joy in their deaths. Or, something.
Adam L Silverman
The on site reporters asking questions at the press conference are really bad at their jobs.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Elizabelle: They preceded that number with “the building is now cleared” so more bodies found plus probable deaths at the hospitals.
There’s a vid from someone in a nearby parking lot where you can hear the shots. It sounded like a shooting range.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: Fucking idiots.
Hal
Assault weapons are for killing only. Not home defense, not hunting. Purely for killing. Seeing people open carry these weapons in Target or Starbucks is infuriating.
raven
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: The first reports are never right.
hovercraft
@Betty Cracker:
They said he had an AR-15 type weapon, so yes that great tool for ‘self defense’ was the culprit. But hey I’m sure Wayne LaPierre will pop soon and tell us it would have been better if only everyone inside had a gun. Nevermind the the off duty cop who was the security guard was armed and is injured.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Adam L Silverman: I cut them some slack. Why was the doctor guy with the hair cap out there? Don’t they have PR people who are used to answering press questions? Are we supposed to think that he just came from surgery and walked down the street to to the microphone? The optics are weird. (I didn’t hear what he was saying.)
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
MomSense
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
This is horrific. We don’t have to live this way. I just can’t believe we are actually choosing to live this way.
Adam L Silverman
Next law enforcement briefing at 1:30 PM EDT. I’ll put a link up around 1:15 PM EDT.
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
My thought exactly, these people are morons.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@scav:
Won’t be long before some idiot starts in with “guess liberals will take Radical Islamic Terrorism more seriously now, huh?”
raven
@hovercraft: Nothing worse than someone using a situation like this to advance their position is there?
amk
@Adam L Silverman:
Yup. “Is this the worst shooting ever in america?”. Sheesh.
Roger Moore
@D58826:
He’s right, you know. When you sow hatred and paranoia, you reap death and destruction. Murderous rampages like this are not random events; they’re the result of people deliberately cultivating the conditions that lead to them.
Adam L Silverman
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I missed the first two to three minutes as I was dealing with doggy needs. I got to the feed just as the imam started speaking.
Elizabelle
I would hope we can stop assault weapon sales, if only to keep them from falling into crazy people’s and terrorists’ hands.
No one should have military grade weapons to take into a club, or a local store.
Make the gun nuts embarrassed they have made this killing possible. Because they have.
50 dead. That’s approaching plane crash numbers.
Stacy
@Loviatar: surprised Trump hasn’t retweeted this yet.
MomSense
@Hal:
It is infuriating. If I see someone carrying an AR 15 at Target, how the hell am I supposed to know if it’s a good guy or a bad guy? What are we supposed to teach our children about what to do if they see someone with a gun if everyone has a gun?
Baud
@Hal:
I’ve been lucky enough never to have seen that.
Betty Cracker
CNN is saying Mateen was born in Florida.
Elizabelle
@MomSense: We are not choosing to live this way.
It is being chosen for us. By sociopaths in the arms industry, and scaredy cats who need a weapon to feel alive, and by their paid for sociopaths in Congress and at the NRA, safe behind armed guards, locked doors, and metal detectors.
This is madness.
Roger Moore
@MomSense:
Skin color. SATSQ.
Peale
@amk: hopefully in the past 12 hours it was. But let’s wait a week before we etch that record in stone.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@raven: Never. And given the idiot questions, we’re going to start hearing 70 dead from some quarters. Some of the reporters thought they meant fifty more dead on top of the earlier twenty.
Betty Cracker
@MomSense: FWIW, open carry isn’t allowed in Florida. And of course, “FWIW” is nothing.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: MSNBC just reported born in NYC. His father told an NBC reporter that his son was a homophobe, enraged by the sight of two men kissing in downtown Miami.
MomSense
@Betty Cracker:
We have open carry here but we are sparsely populated. Otherwise it would be mayhem.
hovercraft
@Elizabelle:
Stop trying to take away my freedom. You are using this to politicize this tragedy. This is a false flag operation to take away my second amendment rights.
If Sandy Hook was not enough this congress will not act. We are doomed.
Mark B
@D58826: I can’t believe the people of Texas voted in this piece of crap. Honestly, not all of us are scum like him.
Culture of Truth
So now it’s the worst mass shooting in American history. Which is really saying something.
Elizabelle
My hope is that Americans respond as classily as did the French. Grief, public affection with vigils and memorials, and being out on the street tomorrow and going to gay clubs and businesses; buy a drink and tell the staff you care and won’t stand for it.
Get out there and live; don’t be afraid in your house, watching cable. The French did well.
Peale
@Mark B: and my guess is that he’ll be your next governor and we’ll all be asked to forget about that tweet when he’s shaking hands at the Iowa state fair some day.
The Dangerman
@MomSense:
Can you imagine what would have happened if, just for a horrible example, UCLA was an open carry campus? LAPD flooded the campus with hundreds (thousands?) of cops; how are they supposed to know? It gets worse if it were concealed carry, which they want as a right, too.
Gimlet
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
MSNBC just reported born in NYC. His father told an NBC reporter that his son was a homophobe, enraged by the sight of two men kissing in downtown Miami.
So no more of a connection to Islam than a proper name, like Barrack HUSSEIN Obama?
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: This shooter seems to offer something to everyone’s political viewpoint.
Elizabelle
@hovercraft: This congress, maybe no. They don’t do much.
But a Congress? Yes. We need to elect it.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@Roger Moore:
Yeah, there’s a reason you don’t see too many people of color in the Open Carry movement. A black guy walks up to the counter at Starbucks with a slung AK, he’ll be dropped by a police sniper before his latte is ready.
Adam L Silverman
@Actually, Bob IS My Uncle: Already started. Tucker Carlson on Fox and Friends blamed it on President Obama not taking “radical Islamic terrorism” seriously. He had on a faculty member from Marine Corps University, who also runs a consultancy on homeland security (how this is legal even under a Title 10 appointment, I do not know) who chimed in in agreement.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/fox-host-blames-obama-for-orlando-nightclub-shooting-before-bodies-can-be-recovered/
Full disclosure: I’ve had one encounter with the person they had on as a subject matter expert. It was not pleasant, when I called him on his BS he went into full weasel mode, and when I presented him with my credentials he immediately broke off the contact.
Gimlet
Anybody wake up Rick Scott yet and put a videocam on him?
rachel
@hovercraft: I bet I can predict the math the RWs are going to use: Hate crime + Muslim = terrorism.
Adam L Silverman
@amk: Still VA Tech if I’m recalling correctly off the top of my head and without coffee yet this AM.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: The news has already declared this the worst ever.
scav
@Actually, Bob IS My Uncle: Well, the only reason the Conservative Christians apparently object to this form of American killing Americans is that they apparently want all the notches on their communal belt — this is their game preserve for despised and totally deserved it victims in the name of religious freedom. (And not only is Bob my Unlce, he’s also my Great Uncle!)
PhoenixRising
Quick primer since no one has left one yet in this thread:
Orlando is a center of tourism with multiple large, coastal/global employers staffing entertainment venues (Disney, Universal, etc). There are a LOT of LGBT people there. The area has been a magnet for gay kids who were the star of their HS musical for decades.
Because most of them aren’t talented enough to get into a Disney parade, the Waffle House/Holiday Inn staffing in Orlando is gayer than…(I was gonna say the cliche ‘a Disney parade’ but we’ll go with) what you might expect from a city its size.
Some things to look for, if you can stand to expose yourself to news coverage ( I just can’t do it):
-Reactions from local/state/national politicians. How and how much will be reflective of not just the scale of this attack vs ’96 bombing of the ATL Olympics, but the changed attitudes of Americans re what level of safety we can expect in our community spaces. In 1996 we were less than 10 years out from a TX judge letting off 3 hoods who beat a gay man to death in a Dallas park because he came on to one of them, for context.
-There is a report of a shortage of blood. Keep an eye on which kinds of our fellow citizens step up to save the injured. Not long ago we would have expected…some reluctance.
Have at it, ya’ll, and I’ll check back tonight. Gonna take my dogs hiking.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Adam L Silverman: I’m waiting for Lindsey Graham to explain that this happened because we don’t have Boots On The Ground in Syraqia, which Purple-Monkey-Dishwasher logic he will not be asked to explain to those like me too dumb to see the obvious.
ETA:
MSNBC just said worst in thirty years… I’m trying to remember an incident in the mid-80s, can’t think of it.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
That’s not likely. In Ohio, they’re about to pass legislation that exempts people with CCW from having to go through background checks for subsequent purchase/purchases.
hovercraft
@Elizabelle:
Amen.
The Dangerman
@Adam L Silverman:
FOX had some POS on this morning to claim that 50% of American Muslims want Sharia Law to replace the Constitution. Complete whack job.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: I’m not sure it would help with these types of incidents. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done, but I think what you’d see is that it would simply create a full on black market for AR (stands for ArmaLite) pattern and other self loading, semi-automatic rifles. It would make it much, much harder to track them in terms of sales and distribution. All the EU states have much tighter regulations on these types of firearms and there is a thriving and seemingly hard to track, let alone interdict, black market for firearms, especially semi-automatics, that has been tapped in several recent terrorist incidents.
I’m not saying that there aren’t better, reasonable regulations that could and should be considered and tried, but I don’t think an outright ban would matter for this type of incident.
Amaranthine RBG
@Baud:
This right here.
Elizabelle
My thoughts are with the police who went in once the place was secure, and what they found.
From the Guardian:
What does that entail?
JPL
@Gimlet: According to the Orlando Police force the governor just declared a state of emergency. I’m not sure what that does?
Baud
@Elizabelle:
@JPL:
Money, I think.
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
V- tech I think was 33
MomSense
@The Dangerman:
I can’t even imagine. I don’t find the idea of wannabe law enforcers running around without any of the necessary training and experience to be the slightest bit comforting.
Iowa Old Lady
@Elizabelle: Elizabelle, I love you, but not a chance. The Rs will try to make ISIS into this election’s Ebola.
SiubhanDuinne
@Adam L Silverman:
@Baud:
VA Tech was 32 dead, 17 wounded. So if the 50 dead number is correct, that’s one more than the total casualties at VA Tech.
But I get all pissed off when it becomes merely a matter of numbers and superlatives.
TaMara (HFG)
@Adam L Silverman: I’m glad you’re here as a knowledgeable voice of reason. I’m glad I have the distraction of a play date today for Bixby with an old friend I haven’t seen in years to get away from all the speculation. I’m grateful to come here to commiserate with this community.
This is a difficult day for so many families and I hope karma is swift and harsh for those who are using this vicious attack to further their own hate filled agendas.
Adam L Silverman
@MomSense: @Baud: Lot of it went on during the Open Carry movement’s push for open carry in Texas. Texas had, until last AUG, restricted the open carry of handguns while allowing the open carry of long guns. So a lot of the Open Carry Texas public activity involved carrying rifles, carbines, and shotguns – modern, vintage, and modern reproduction of vintage long guns – to and into places as part of the political campaign to change the law. There were a few problems, notably from the offshoot Open Carry Tarrant County, which is run by a complete nut who was disavowed by the rest of the Open Carry Texas group.
pat
Over at MSN the comments are all about how the mean liberals and Obama will now come and take away all the guns.
Morons.
Gimlet
I think it’s too much of a coincidence that Christina Grimmie was shot the day before. Maybe that influenced him as some form of inspiration to get moving on what he’d prepared a long time for.
scav
@JPL: In an election year? I’d wonder. might also get some extra souces of funding opened? Sounds like posturing for some reason. Can the police really not mutitask?
Elizabelle
@Iowa Old Lady: Yup. ISIS and Zika.
Although this one happened months too early. People might wise up and start demanding less assault rifles with expanded magazines. No civilian needs one. It’s madness.
Major Major Major Major
oh god i’m going to be sick (not really but it felt that way for a second). what the fuck. just woke up.
Schlemazel Khan
@Hal:
But we need them so’s me an the other wolverines can defeat the 3rd armor battalion when the revolution comes!
Mike J
Remember that gay men can not donate blood, and Orlando is desperately short. Time for allies to step up.
Cat48
He had an Associate Degree in Law Enforcement and worked as a Security Guard, per msnbc. No word of military service yet.
MomSense
Pup and I are going to walk in the woods and commune with the woodland creatures. If a mom cries in the forest and no one hears…
debbie
@The Dangerman:
And a higher percentage of Christan Evangelicals want America Sharia to replace the U.S. Constitution’s inadequate protection of Religious Freedom.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Baud: Wikipedia says VATech was 33 killed (including the gunman) + 23 wounded (17 by gunfire).
Sandy Hook was 28 killed (including the gunman and his mother) + 2 injured.
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
liberal
@Adam L Silverman: I agree with the general principle that you have to look at the human propensity to get around bans, but ISTR that Australia banned automatics (or something…) and the number of mass shootings plummeted.
Though, of course, if someone really really wants to take out a number of people, banning all guns won’t stop them at all. The proper question is, will it statistically decrease the number and size of such incidents?
In terms of the other side of the equation, “benefits,” there’s zero public policy benefit to allowing civilians to have automatic weapons. The only “benefit” is some sort of crutch for people who obviously have mental issues, and the bottom line of arms manufacturers.
Hal
@Adam L Silverman: A couple of Facebook friends are of the same mindset. At least when the killing involves a possible Muslim connection. My favorite part of these posts from them is when they use the President’s full name. Gotta emphasize HUSSEIN to make sure everyone knows the truth, wink wink.
liberal
@liberal: OK, I’m thinking of this: the Port Arthur massacre.
Major Major Major Major
@Mike J:
This too. That was literally my second thought.
Shell
Needing some break from this weary horror..
Looks like TCM is airing movies with links to Broadway and the Tony Awards. Alexander Hamilton, Sabrina, An American in Paris….
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Here’s the entire FL code pertaining to firearms and weapons:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/0790.html
There are a couple of exemptions not in this part of the code. The first is there is a limited open carry exemption if one is going to or from fishing, hunting, camping, gun shows, shooting (for sport/at the range) or in transit from one or more of those activities. Otherwise the only carry is concealed and for that you need a conceal carry permit/license, which is issued by the Department of Agriculture after a background check is completed and the applicant has submitted proof of completion of the appropriate course. If I’m recalling correctly, the FL legislature (motto: No one’s life, liberty, or property is safe while we are in session!) passed an exemption to the conceal carry law a year or two ago allowing anyone to carry concealed during a state of emergency such as a hurricane or other natural disaster.
Adam L Silverman
@MomSense: 45 states have some form of open carry. From regulated to unlimited.
Elizabelle
Thinking about Texas forcing its universities to allow open carry on campus. And disturbed or failing students. And the UCLA professor killed by a post-grad in early June. A fellow academic heard the shots, realized Dr. Klug would never commit suicide, and went over and held the professor’s door shut so the gunman could not escape.
Maybe we need to see a week without a professor.
And a week without a shopper. Like the second would ever happen. But you’ve got to hit these weasels in their pockets, and make them inconvenienced. The business of America is business, is it not? I think the passionate Calvin Coolidge might have told us that.
Mr Stagger Lee
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: McDonalds in San Ysidro Ca. I believe 21 dead
liberal
@OzarkHillbilly: Frankly, I don’t understand why a civilian even needs a semiautomatic rifle.
Disclosure: I did hunt as a child (mainly pheasant). Not very good at it.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: So it wasn’t about Islam except that they guy was Muslim. So if he were not Muslim, his religious beliefs and connections would go unexamined, but because he is a Muslim, we’re going to get wall to wall sensationalism.
Adam L Silverman
@Mark B: Well they did reject him and chose Ted Cruz for Senate.
SiubhanDuinne
I just checked in to the link Adam provided. They are showing long long lines of probably hundreds of Floridians on a hot summer Sunday morning waiting to donate blood.
I feel a lot better about my fellow humans now.
CaseyL
@Major Major Major Major: I’m right there with you. “Worst mass shooting in US history” – because we have so many to compare it to. FFS.
At this point, I’m in favor of banning private ownership of all guns, period, full stop. I’ll compromise by accepting a ban on everything but handguns and maybe hunting rifles (defined strictly as no more than one shot fired at a time).
In view of Adam’s sensible caution that doing so will just create a black market, I say anyone selling guns on the black market should prosecuted as an accessory to mass murder.
Davis X. Machina
@liberal: When They come boiling out of the cities, looking for our women and our duallies, and our wide-screen TV’s, don’t come whining to me, buster.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: You’re from the US, live here, seen how we do things?
Iowa Old Lady
@Elizabelle: I would certainly leave any store in which I saw someone carrying an assault weapon and, really, any gun unless they were uniformed law enforcement. I grew up in Detroit. I take no chances.
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: Yep, just checked. VA Tech was 32 killed.
Immanentize
@Major Major Major Major:
Not entirely true anymore — since last December, gay men who have not been sexually active for 12 months can donate blood. Although this is still an awful limitation, I would really hate for people who want to and may donate blood to not do so because of a misunderstanding of the current reg.s…. And I might add, that activity is self-reported?
rikyrah
@Elizabelle:
The nightclub is densely packed. If you have a semi-automatic weapon , you get the most damage in a place like a nightclub.
MomSense
@Adam L Silverman:
I saw a guy with a handgun in his sweatshirt pocket, one of those open on both ends front pockets. Wicked smaht. I wanted to tell him how smaht he is but decided against it. I’m tired of being told by the NRA that these everyone carries a gun laws are supposed to make me feel safer. I don’t.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Yes. Which is why I am glad I am out of the US for a few weeks and not watching TV at all. This will make the newscasts in Spain tonight.
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
Why does anyone not in law enforcement have access to an AR-15?
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: They would be exempt from state checks, not Federal. Every legal/lawful/licit purchase has to have a Federal Form 4473 completed and submitted.
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
http://courantblogs.com/investigative-reporting/whats-involved-in-a-firearms-background-check-anyway/
wenchacha
Wow. Chuck Todd was just remarking that this is Pride Week.
hovercraft
@Mike J:
Yes please donate, I lived in London 25 years ago and they will not accept my blood. So donate if you can.
Adam L Silverman
@The Dangerman: Was that the same guy that was talking with Carlson?
Shrillhouse
@Adam L Silverman:
As a Canadian, I can’t even imagine what it’s like to live in those states.
Other than on a cop’s hip, I’ve never even once laid eyes on a gun.
The thought of random fellow citizens wandering around with assault rifles is absolutely terrifying.
Major Major Major Major
@rikyrah: A civilian AR-15 is just a rifle, isn’t it? Semiautomatics are just semiautomatics, the AR-15 just has a fancy black case. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.
Elizabelle
@Davis X. Machina:
That’s the level of “thinking” behind the ammosexuals, truly. It’s purely fear and projection.
(Duallies being pickup trucks with dual wheels on the rear axle. DXM made me look it up.)
ETA: and it’s “boiling out of the cities” that make this an exceptional comment. Cities, the Mideast, whatevs. Wherever real Americans don’t live.
Immanentize
@rikyrah: Because, you know! That’s why! Move along!
Here in Beantown, the Northeastern University police just decided they would start buying and carrying automatic weapons. Drunk college students? Check! A diverse population of students from around the world right up against some poorer Boston neighborhoods? Check! Underpaid police force with insufficient training? Double check!!
No possible problems there.
JanieM
@Mike J:
That’s not strictly true anymore, although your point is still well taken given the one-year restriction.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: @JPL:
here’s the statute:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0200-0299/0252/Sections/0252.36.html
252.36 Emergency management powers of the Governor.—
(1)(a) The Governor is responsible for meeting the dangers presented to this state and its people by emergencies. In the event of an emergency beyond local control, the Governor, or, in the Governor’s absence, her or his successor as provided by law, may assume direct operational control over all or any part of the emergency management functions within this state, and she or he shall have the power through proper process of law to carry out the provisions of this section. The Governor is authorized to delegate such powers as she or he may deem prudent.
(b) Pursuant to the authority vested in her or him under paragraph (a), the Governor may issue executive orders, proclamations, and rules and may amend or rescind them. Such executive orders, proclamations, and rules shall have the force and effect of law.
(2) A state of emergency shall be declared by executive order or proclamation of the Governor if she or he finds an emergency has occurred or that the occurrence or the threat thereof is imminent. The state of emergency shall continue until the Governor finds that the threat or danger has been dealt with to the extent that the emergency conditions no longer exist and she or he terminates the state of emergency by executive order or proclamation, but no state of emergency may continue for longer than 60 days unless renewed by the Governor. The Legislature by concurrent resolution may terminate a state of emergency at any time. Thereupon, the Governor shall issue an executive order or proclamation ending the state of emergency. All executive orders or proclamations issued under this section shall indicate the nature of the emergency, the area or areas threatened, and the conditions which have brought the emergency about or which make possible its termination. An executive order or proclamation shall be promptly disseminated by means calculated to bring its contents to the attention of the general public; and, unless the circumstances attendant upon the emergency prevent or impede such filing, the order or proclamation shall be filed promptly with the Department of State and in the offices of the county commissioners in the counties to which the order or proclamation applies.
(3) An executive order or proclamation of a state of emergency shall:
(a) Activate the emergency mitigation, response, and recovery aspects of the state, local, and interjurisdictional emergency management plans applicable to the political subdivision or area in question; and
(b) Be authority for the deployment and use of any forces to which the plan or plans apply and for the use or distribution of any supplies, equipment, and materials and facilities assembled, stockpiled, or arranged to be made available pursuant to ss. 252.31-252.90 or any other provision of law relating to emergencies.
(c) Identify whether the state of emergency is due to a minor, major, or catastrophic disaster.
1. For a major or catastrophic disaster, the proclamation is authority for a health care practitioner licensed in another state to assist in providing health care in the disaster area according to the provisions specified in the proclamation.
2. For a catastrophic disaster, the proclamation constitutes a formal request for mobilization of the military, which shall be communicated to the President of the United States.
(4) During the continuance of a state of emergency, the Governor is commander in chief of the Florida National Guard and of all other forces available for emergency duty. To the greatest extent practicable, the Governor shall delegate or assign command authority by prior arrangement embodied in appropriate executive orders or rules, but nothing herein restricts the Governor’s authority to do so by orders issued at the time of the emergency.
(5) In addition to any other powers conferred upon the Governor by law, she or he may:
(a) Suspend the provisions of any regulatory statute prescribing the procedures for conduct of state business or the orders or rules of any state agency, if strict compliance with the provisions of any such statute, order, or rule would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay necessary action in coping with the emergency.
(b) Utilize all available resources of the state government and of each political subdivision of the state, as reasonably necessary to cope with the emergency.
(c) Transfer the direction, personnel, or functions of state departments and agencies or units thereof for the purpose of performing or facilitating emergency services.
(d) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation under s. 252.43, commandeer or utilize any private property if she or he finds this necessary to cope with the emergency.
(e) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the state if she or he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other emergency mitigation, response, or recovery.
(f) Prescribe routes, modes of transportation, and destinations in connection with evacuation.
(g) Control ingress and egress to and from an emergency area, the movement of persons within the area, and the occupancy of premises therein.
(h) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles. However, nothing contained in ss. 252.31-252.90 shall be construed to authorize the seizure, taking, or confiscation of firearms that are lawfully possessed, unless a person is engaged in the commission of a criminal act.
(i) Make provision for the availability and use of temporary emergency housing.
(j) Take effective measures for limiting or suspending lighting devices and appliances, gas and water mains, electric power distribution, and all other utility services in the general public interest.
(k) Take measures concerning the conduct of civilians, the movement and cessation of movement of pedestrian and vehicular traffic prior to, during, and subsequent to drills and actual or threatened emergencies, the calling of public meetings and gatherings, and the evacuation and reception of civilian population, as provided in the emergency management plan of the state and political subdivisions thereof.
(l) Authorize the use of forces already mobilized as the result of an executive order, rule, or proclamation to assist the private citizens of the state in cleanup and recovery operations during emergencies when proper permission to enter onto or into private property has been obtained from the property owner. The provisions of s. 768.28(9) apply to this paragraph.
(m) Authorize businesses and their employees who sell commodities as defined in s. 501.160(1)(a) to exceed the times of curfews for the purpose of ensuring that the supplies of commodities are made available to the public and direct local law enforcement to assist and accommodate those businesses and their employees in ensuring that commodities are available in coping with the emergency.
(n) By executive order, authorize the operator of solid waste disposal facilities to extend operating hours to ensure the health, safety, and welfare of the general public.
(6) The Governor shall take such action and give such direction to state and local law enforcement officers and agencies as may be reasonable and necessary for the purpose of securing compliance with the provisions of ss. 252.31-252.90 and with the orders and rules made pursuant thereto.
(7) The Governor shall employ such measures and give such directions to the Department of Health and the Agency for Health Care Administration as may be reasonably necessary for the purpose of securing compliance with the provisions of ss. 252.31-252.90 or with the findings or recommendations of such agency of health by reason of conditions arising from emergencies or threats of emergency.
(8) The Governor shall delegate emergency responsibilities to the officers and agencies of the state and of the political subdivisions thereof prior to an emergency or threat of an emergency and shall utilize the services and facilities of existing officers and agencies of the state and of the political subdivisions thereof, including their personnel and other resources, as the primary emergency management forces of the state, and all such officers and agencies shall cooperate with and extend their services and facilities to the division, as it may require.
(9) The Governor and the division shall establish agencies and offices and appoint executive, professional, technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of ss. 252.31-252.90.
(10) The Governor shall formulate and execute plans and rules for the control of traffic in order to provide for the rapid and safe movement or evacuation over public highways and streets of people, troops, or vehicles and materials for national defense or for use in any defense industry and may coordinate the activities of the departments or agencies of the state and the political subdivisions thereof concerned directly or indirectly with public highways and streets in a manner which will best effectuate such plans.
History.—s. 1, ch. 74-285; s. 1, ch. 77-47; s. 4, ch. 79-12; s. 21, ch. 81-169; s. 2, ch. 83-44; s. 19, ch. 83-334; s. 11, ch. 93-211; s. 129, ch. 95-148; s. 47, ch. 99-8; s. 33, ch. 2001-61; s. 2, ch. 2005-283; s. 1, ch. 2006-100.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Elizabelle: The France24 TV channel was covering it live…
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
Elizabelle
@wenchacha: Not Pride in Accurate Reporting week, though.
Betty Cracker
@Adam L Silverman: I wouldn’t go so far as to assume the shooter’s rampage had nothing to do with his religion. I’m all for examining and attempting to disrupt and expose the belief systems, associates and organizations that weaponize Christian nutbars like Paul Hill and Eric Rudolph, and the same goes for this latest fundamentalist scum.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Well, as long as Rick Scott is on it, now with expanded powers, I feel real safe.
In Spain.
Trentrunner
Dan Savage:
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: Actually they changed the rules on that. Gay men can now donate blood. Those of us who have lived in Europe, however, still cannot because of Britain’s mad cow scare.
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/BloodBloodProducts/QuestionsaboutBlood/ucm108186.htm
I use to be a regular donor until the changed the rules because of the mad cow stuff in the mid 90s. And since the variant bovine spongiform encephalopathy that was being transmitted in England supposedly has a 10 year incubation period, I should be good. But even if I had the last pint left to give in the state they wouldn’t take it or I’d already be at the blood bank.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman:
I don’t think that’s true at all. The kind of Christian dominionism that leads one to slaughter gay people during Pride week would certainly be reported on. Not as fervently, one imagines, but we’d definitely hear about it, and there would be a #NotAllPentecostals thing, and we’d make sure to avoid painting Christians with a broad brush, but there would still be a “who the fuck are these people?” report.
Maybe it would get less coverage because we’re used to it.
Loviatar
@shomi:
I caught that also. Hopefully we’ll find out later if this was the guy Obama was talking about.
Unfortunately, it won’t change any minds.
boatboy_srq
@Keith G: Orlando’s LGBT community is closely knit in the same sense that the Mayans were high tech: there are facets of that, but far less than you might think. MCC has a presence in the city, but the biggest awareness seems to be who’s dated whom. ORL was a regular weekend out when I was in TPA not that many years ago: it’s hardly NYC, SFO, PHL or CHI when it comes to “community.”
@JPL: LGBT watering holes have had security for ages, mainly because they’re targets already just for being LGBT. They are regularly targeted by homophobes, from teens and frat boys out for a lark to Christofascist ammosexuals on missions for Jeebus. And they’re targets for law enforcement because Teh Chilluns and because everyone knows all f#gotts do drugs: raids for illegal substances and for alcohol sales to minors are common. Pulse is no different from any big LGBT nightclub with visibility in the greater community.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Yes. Didn’t that ban take out a lot of military and diplomatic personnel? No bloodletting to help preserve life.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Well, that’s pretty revolting. Altho’ I can’t say I’m surprised.
So, I wonder just how the hard-core Christianists are going to spin this, since we’re already getting “as ye sow so shall ye reap” rhetoric from the TX lt. Governor. That sounds like tacit approval. That’s going to interfere with any anti-Muslim spin, surely.
And we’re actually bandying numbers of deaths around in the various mass shootings lately like football scores. “Was this one the worst? Was that one the worst?” And it seems almost normal to do so. This is a fucked-up country entirely
Feathers
@PhoenixRising: Yes. My sister worked at Disney during the summer back in the 90s. All the gay kids rolling in for the afternoon/evening shift after a night at the clubs was a real eye opener for her. People weren’t out in high school then. Met some of them when I went down to visit. Great kids. Gay theater geeks from all over the South and Midwest. Prayers for all of them, past and current.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: A nightclub is one of the best arenas ever for mayhem, is it not?
So sad.
The Dangerman
@Adam L Silverman:
Couldn’t say; I was still shaking off sleep. He wasn’t in studio, he was a Phone-A-Fiend via Video. His POS factor was so high I’m surprised FOX had him on. It was that bad.
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
Here in NJ they do not take in the 10 year incubation period, last year my school had a blood drive and when I tried to donate , they would not accept my blood. I haven’t lived in the UK since 1992.
liberal
@Betty Cracker:
Agreed. Though in terms of public policy, there’s no actionable issue (speaking normatively).
boatboy_srq
@Roger Moore: I’m sure he’d be singing a slightly less offensive tune if this happened somewhere in the Montrose.
Adam L Silverman
@liberal: Australia did. And the number did go down. But the number of these types of rifles and carbines that are already owned in the US are much, much higher than they ever were in Australia. So a lucrative black market would form very easily. One important point: AR pattern rifles, as well as other legally manufactured and sold/purchased self loading rifles in the US, are not automatic rifles. Automatic rifles and handguns are illegal to own in the US, with the exception to a handful that were grandfathered in prior to 1986. If he had an AR 15, unless he illegally modified it, then it was semi-automatic.
There would also be other questions that would arise from such a policy. Is it retroactive? If so how are you going to actually take possession and destroy the vast numbers of AR pattern rifles, regardless of caliber, as well as other semi-automatic rifles (AKs, M1As, etc)? What about bolt action rifles or shotguns that load off of a magazine? So is this all rifles and shotguns that load off a magazine or is this just semi-automatics? What really differentiates them? Does the differentiation matter? All of these are the substantive questions that have to be asked and answered in order to formulate any new laws and regulations. I’m not saying it shouldn’t happen, I am saying I think it will not resolve the problem for terrorist incidents, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is quickly downgraded to a mass shooting only – despite who was targeted, and I’m not sure it would resolve the problem for most mass shootings either.
debit
@Betty Cracker: Except it’s Ramadan. I’m not an expert, but my understanding is that the faithful are supposed to (in addition to fasting) eschew worldly desires and think on the less fortunate. He could be an extremist, sure, but I’m guessing he just wanted to kill some gay people.
maya
@Major Major Major Major: An AR-15 can be easily converted to an automatic weapon. Just google it. This is largely true of any semi-automatic assault rifle going back to the M-14.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Gay men may now donate blood (as of 4th quarter 2015):
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/BloodBloodProducts/QuestionsaboutBlood/ucm108186.htm
liberal
@Adam L Silverman: Make it a felony, backed by draconian penalties, to own one. As I said, there’s no reason for a civilian to own a semiautomatic weapon.
Yeah, there’s no way such a law would ever be passed, but in terms of what’s desirable and reasonable, there’s no reason for these weapons to be in civilian hands.
liberal
@maya: Which is why semiautomatics should also be banned.
There’s no legitimate use for them in civilian hands.
NB: I don’t think banning guns is really all that high up there, as a cause, from a utilitarian perspective (number of lives they cost, amount of political capital needed to get rid of them, etc). But there’s no need for these weapons to be in civilian hands.
Feathers
@Immanentize: That is crazy. Although Northeastern does have the College of Criminal Justice, so the force is relatively well-trained. My brother went through the program there, and was worked in some capacity his senior year. It was a competitive job to get.
That said, they had a saying sorting the various colleges by how students died –
Northeastern: Mugging gone wrong
Harvard: Encounter with hooker gone wrong (but reported as mugging gone wrong)
BC: Alcohol poisoning
BU: Lying down in traffic on Comm Ave while drunk
MIT: We’re still not really sure what happened
Confession – I saw the headline and went to kitchen to make blueberry pancakes before facing the thread. And fuck civilian assault rifles.
Amaranthine RBG
From what I am hearing on the (probably unreliable) broadcast news, the gunman was inside the club and holding hostages. People in the club were calling police telling them what was happening and asking for help. The SWAT team crashed through a wall with an armored vehicle to gain entry. SWAT team then engaged and killed gunman.
I would be very surprised if all SWAT fire struck gunman and none hit anyone else in the club.
Betty Cracker
@debit: I don’t think extremists follow that rule. But yeah, we don’t know anything for sure at this point.
@liberal: Agree 100% — both that a ban and draconian penalties would be sensible and that it will never happen.
CarolDuhart2
@liberal: But if you can make things harder, it tends to weed out the folks with short fuses, the antisocial (in the sense that they have no friends that would lend them anything), and those who cannot get their hands on enough money to buy at black market prices. What if the killer had to take weeks to find someone who would sell to him, or raise 10K? Yes, maybe he tries knives or a bomb. But those methods allow for some people to escape. Perhaps he gets tired or even frustrated in the process.
Actually, Bob IS My Uncle
@debit:
As usual, there are a variety of interpretations of what “the faithful” should and shouldn’t do at Ramadan. Islam is a seriously fragmented religion.
wenchacha
@Elizabelle: Oh Hell no. Never.
Mike in NC
@Shrillhouse: About 20 years ago I briefly dated a woman from Ontario who was working in the DC area. She was shaken one day when she told me that she saw a guy in civilian clothing wearing a holster. “Welcome to Crazy America!” was my reply.
Glidwrith
@Peale: The SOB is already under felony indictment, iirc. Also, Lt Gov is the power position in Texas. Gov is just a figurehead. Juanita jean’s place keeps an eye on these walking human excrements.
liberal
@Adam L Silverman:
Rapidity of fire.
Again, there’s no need for such weapons. Yes, a black market would be created. So? The question isn’t whether the number of incidents would be eliminated, but rather whether they would be reduced. IMHO it seems unlikely that banning of automatics and semiautomatics plus draconian penalties for ownership wouldn’t have any impact.
Since I don’t think there’s a legitimate reason to own even a semiautomatic, the only real “cost” to banning them is the political cost, and I do think that, weighed against the benefit, it’s not that compelling as a political cause. But this notion that there’s an inherent right to own such weaponry isn’t unquestionable.
Elizabelle
Mentioning the gay kids who worked at Disney: I am thinking of the gay kids I knew as a teen and young adult, and how vulnerable some of them seemed.
Also: even though the vast majority of dead and injured will be gay people, Orlando might be surprised to find quite a few straight kids out in its gay nightclubs (because the music is so good and the people so accepting; it’s just a good time).
Maybe it’s changed, but we used to go out to DC gay dance clubs years ago because they were just more fun, and a tiny bit daring. (And maybe, because you did not get hit on as much and could just enjoy being there and dancing.)
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: It is a semi-automatic/self loader. It can only shoot one round at a time. The physics of each shot ejects the spent case and seats a new round in the chamber. You still have to pull the trigger each time in order to shoot the gun.
wenchacha
Fortunately, the dead and wounded and their loved ones will be inundated with all manner of Thoughts and Prayers.
Miss Bianca
@liberal: I don’t see it happening. I just don’t see it happening. Which leads to the question of, “well, what legislative response might happen?”
In the wake of Sandy Hook, the Colorado Legislature passed some fairly innocuous gun control laws. The result? Recall elections which, thanks to some ruckus from the Libertarians that prevented mail-in ballots from being counted, resulted in the recall of two of the Democratic legislators who voted for the bills. To say nothing of pro-gun legislation promptly being introduced. To say nothing of Colorado Sheriffs not only openly declaring that they would not enforce the laws, but actually trying to sue the governor over them. And this is not a deep-red state, grasp. So…banning of AR-15s with heavy penalties? Pigs *might* fly up my butt.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: I am too. What I was trying to emphasize and perhaps was unclear was that if the shooter had been named Larry Jones or something (no offense to other, actual Larry Joneses) and a Methodist (no offense to actual Methodists) the reporting would all drop the religious angle immediately. They’re going to keep harping on it here because of the shooters name, ethnicity, and religion.
Miss Bianca
Well, I guess I put one too many links in that last comment. Or something. Moderation hell…
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: So same basic core mechanics as a semiauto pistol, right?
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: It did. I can’t donate because I was in grad school in Scotland between 92 and 95. Even though Scottish beef was never infected and they were able to localize the outbreak clusters in England to a couple of traditional butcher shops in England that still prepared cows brains for sale using traditional methods. There was cross contamination from the implements.
Adam L Silverman
@The Dangerman: did he have an Eastern European accent? If so, it was the same guy.
Adam L Silverman
@hovercraft: They don’t anywhere. Its a blanket ban across the US based on FDA rules.
Amaranthine RBG
@Adam L Silverman:
When I turned on the news this morning, I hadn’t heard anything about the shooting and the press conference was underway. In the background, I saw various law enforcement, a guy in surgeon’s garb, and then a bearded guy wearing a taqiyah and I thought, “Oh, shit, shooter must be a Muslim”
It’s interesting to me that we don’t feel it necessary to have some “Christian” clergy present whenever the shooter is “Christian” to issue vague proclamations about how the shooter doesn’t represent “Christian” values.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Klown: Yeah, nobody can be trusted with guns. Glad we’re all in agreement on the need for strict gun restrictions.
Adam L Silverman
@liberal: I’m not saying its unquestionable. I’m not even necessarily disagreeing with you. But I do policy and strategy. In order to do this you have to be able to answer even the short version test of “is what I’m proposing feasible, acceptable, and suitable”?
maya
@Major Major Major Major: The semi-automatic “physics” ALS refers to is gas. When a round is fired it creates a gas which is used to power the ejector and re-seats a new round in the chamber each time you pull the trigger. All that is necessary is to change (convert) the trigger assembly so that when you pull back on it and keep the trigger to the rear it automatically repeats the same eject -reseat process over and over. Not a big hurdle for anyone with a little gun knowledge and a small home workshop. The M-14 used a military issued “selector switch” to accomplish that.
Even in a semi-automatic state an AR-15 puts out a lot of rapid firepower in a very short time. I have a few neighbors who target shoot that way and it almost, but not quite, sounds like a machine gun.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: I sprung it as soon as I saw it.
Elizabelle
@Amaranthine RBG: That’s a great catch, about Christian vs. Muslim religious accountability. Hmmmm. Why is that?
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Yes, with a couple of differences. Most AR pattern rifles work off of a gas block that feeds some amount of the spent gas from the combustion of the powder to feed the cycling of the action. Others use a piston, which keeps the bolt carrier group cleaner and supposedly is more reliable. Most semi-automatic handguns use the simple physics of blowback to cycle the action.
Peale
@wenchacha: yeah. They’ll need it if they call for anything other than sympathy in this country.
Adam L Silverman
@Amaranthine RBG: It is very strange indeed.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Ah, thanks. I’ve tripped the moderation switch more in the last week than I have in the last three months. Never sure what’s doing it.
ETA: OK, here’s a question for you: what type of legislative/cultural response *do* you see as feasible? Or is there none, for the short-term?
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Its been unusually sensitive recently. I’ve recommended group counseling.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Ah. (see above again, btw – in my usual annoying way I’ve edited to add a plea.)
Shawn in Showme
@Adam L Silverman:
Of course the default culture is going to ignore the default religion’s poosible influence in a massacre. The United States is not unique in that regard. 10,000 years of civilization has failed to eliminate cultural bias.
The question is, when the next mass murder by a cultural “Other” happens, can our broken politics prevent the re-introduction of concentration camps?
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: I think you’ll see this become part of the campaign political football. I don’t think any Federal legislative response will be forthcoming because of the majority party in both chambers. Same in Florida but expanded to include who is the governor.
Beyond that there are limits to what can be done because of how Justice Scalia worded the Heller opinion. At some point the US Supreme Court is going to have to deal with the reality that lower Federal Courts, both District and Appeals, have been consistently ignoring the Heller ruling. The most recent example being the 9th Circuit’s ruling last week in the Peruta case, which has reinforced and expanded a circuit split. The Supreme Court cannot and should not tolerate its subordinate courts ignoring its precedents. The question is going to be whether it smacks the subordinate courts around and forces them to accept and apply Heller or if it accepts their reasoning for ignoring it and reverses the decision. I honestly have no idea how that would go, but I doubt a 4-4 divided court is going to touch this. The liberal block doesn’t trust the 3 solid conservative block members, the three solid conservative block members don’t trust the four liberal block members, and neither group trusts Justice Kennedy on this issue.
Adam L Silverman
@Shawn in Showme: Most likely yes, but… the rise of Trumpism is not something that can be factored out of the equation and I’m not sure how to properly factor it in.
hovercraft
@Betty Cracker:
Your governor is something special. We know it’s an act of terror because of the number of people killed. If it was not batboy I might think he meant that all mass shootings terrorize, but in this case he means ‘terrorism’. Point the finger at the mooslems and deflect any conversation from the gun conversation. I know he got emotional but I don’t buy it. You can’t push for guns everywhere and then cry about the consequences.
Why were not Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech not terrorism?
The Other Chuck
@Adam L Silverman: If the weapon were fully automatic, it would kill far fewer people before the shooter ran out of ammo. The semi-automatic mode is probably the most efficient mode on small arms for mass-killing of soft targets. Hell, the AR-15s even let you use an extra bullet to change the mag that much quicker, and we can’t even regulate that out of existence.
Nothing will happen, except wherever right wingers have power, they will make guns even more plentiful. I don’t think they’re even bothering to offer “thoughts and prayers” anymore. About one quarter of the country is out to exterminate us, or actively gives support to those that do.
I think it’s time we took all the guns. All of them. Repeal the fucking second amendment.
Olduvai George
Florida LGBT rights group Equality Florida has made a GoFundMe page for donations for the victims. If I didn’t get the linking business right, Equality Florida is at eqfl.org. Also, apologies if this info has already been posted.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: I had no idea the courts were ignoring Heller. It seems that the only ‘morally feasible’ option (is that even a thing? ‘morally feasible’?) would be for the Supremes to revise or reverse the Heller decision, but as you point out, there’s no way that’s happening with the current composition of the court.
And so we’ll get stalemate. Maybe until there’s a turning point in the tide of regarding the 2nd Amendment as espousing that ‘unilateral’ approach to gun ownership rights. I wonder if that tide is start to turn already, or whether it has a long way to ebb yet.
Adam L Silverman
@The Other Chuck: I agree. Fully automatics increase the tendency to spray, pray, and dump all your ammo at once. While I got a watered down for civilians version of Army marksmanship, handgun, and rifle training, single shots and three round bursts were emphasized.
As for the rest of your remarks, as I’ve written repeatedly, I understand the argument, but I don’t see how the policy gets written or implemented for political, social, and cultural reasons in the US.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Drives the 2nd Amendment maximalists/absolutists nuts. And even with a change in composition of the Supreme Court, I don’t think its a guarantee that they would overturn Heller. The liberal block seems to have a higher regard for precedent and stare decisis than the conservative block does.
Mark B
@Amaranthine RBG: Unfortunately, friendly fire is a consequence of having gun battles with assailants armed with military weapons. I don’t see how it could be avoided completely, only minimized.
Glidwrith
@The Other Chuck: I’ve sometimes wondered if we should just say, “Yes, we are going to take your guns, because, quite obviously, delusional, irrational, paranoid people such as yourselves are precisely the ones that shouldn’t have them. Everyone else can keep theirs.”
Amaranthine RBG
@Mark B: You’re right. And, from what I’ve heard, there were 30 or so people who were evacuated unwounded from the scene after the shooting – so in theory the SWAT intervention saved those people.
Ruckus
@MomSense:
If you see someone at a Target carrying an AR15, that is not a good guy. No matter what he says.
Elizabelle
@Glidwrith: I like that thought.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: I do wonder, tho’, if a sustained public information campaign/debate bent on turning public opinion back towards a less absolutist/maximalist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment would bear any fruit. Or would be even be worth trying as a way of breaking the absolutist lobbying power. If the NRA could get broken as a toxic advocacy group (altho’ I do realize that there’s an even more toxic one or several waiting in the wings).
Basically I just wonder what it’s going to take to break Gun Fever in this country.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: I have no idea. Honestly.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Adam L Silverman:
Are you sure about that? My NRA “life member” uncle had a small arsenal, including a 3-pounder cannon, but nothing automatic. When I asked him about it, he said that it would be easy for him to get one legally as long as he went through the process to get a ATF “tax stamp”. Of course, actually getting the paperwork approved is a huge hassle, but AFAIK, it’s not “illegal”.
(Not that it fits with this discussion, but I knew a guy after high school who had a genuine Tommy gun (that probably was never registered).
My dad told me stories about going out in the mountains of Colorado and shooting a German machine gun that his father brought back from the war. His dad eventually had it disabled.
There are probably more than a few of these things floating around, but most owners are sensible enough not to fire them.)
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Well, shoot! (uh…so to speak). Here I was thinking that if *anyone* would have some idea as to what might be feasible etc. for speaking truth to gun power, it would be you! Oh well….
Ruckus
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
I had a friend in OH who had a federal firearms license, which allowed him to own fully automatic weapons. He used to go on shoots regularly where several people would get together and fire off auto weapons for most of a day. At the time, 25 yrs ago, getting that license was not hard at all.
Shawn in ShowMe
@Miss Bianca:
The people who would be inclined to listen to you are not the ones who are seeking out guns to solve their problems. Criminalizing semiautomatic weapons would be about as effective as criminalizing narcotics. You want to shut down the distribution of automatic weapons? Shut down the manufacture of semi-automatic weapons. Unfortunately we live in the heart of the military industrial complex. Good luck on that.
satby
@debit: Killing is haram (forbidden) in the Koran just as it is in the Bible. And you’re right, Ramadan is time for reflection, family, and prayer for Muslims.
Ruckus
@Miss Bianca:
It’s going to take a long time and some fresh ideas about how to go about it. Maybe just brute force politics, meaning someone high enough up willing to risk a career (and possibly a life) to fight for genuine controls. I believe that it will take a constitutional amendment, rewriting the 2nd to make it work. How hard do you think that will be? Maybe it will take just ending the conservative movement in the entire country, and I don’t see that happening. It sure won’t be a come to jesus moment for them, that avenue has pretty much been closed. The last 30-50 yrs of republican strategy has turned politics into a death chant for many and the only way to get that genie back in the bottle is the republicans have to put it there. I don’t see that happening either.
This is the only reason I feel in any way positive about my age and health, I probably won’t be here to see the bloody end of this experiment in government gone completely off the rails.
Adam L Silverman
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: It is possible to get one legally. You have to file a request with the ATF under the National Firearms Act (NFA). And there is a sizable tax on it – this isn’t the $200 to get a suppressor/silencer. And unlike the latter item they are not approved very often.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: I honestly don’t know. The folks now running the NRA and several other firearms/guns/shooting organizations worked very hard for over 40 years to move/change the popular and legal understanding of the 2nd Amendment. It didn’t happen overnight and it didn’t happen all at once. Given the current political reality at the Federal level and in at least 1/2 the states I don’t see a policy solution. And its not just who is in control politically. Over 1/2 the states have a version of the 2nd Amendment in their state constitutions that are more strongly worded than the Federal one. All but a handful have some version. And some of these predate the Federal 2nd Amendment, including some of the more strongly worded ones.
So trying to negotiate all that is very difficult. And no offense to Mayor Bloomberg on this, but he is a terrible figurehead for trying to move the ball on this. I’m not a 2nd Amendment absolutist or maximalist, but I do think he’s an authoritarian based on a lot of what he did as mayor of New York. He’s the last guy, even if he’s right, that I want to hear about on this stuff. That said, if the surviving parents and siblings and children and families of the Newtown mass shooting or Congresswoman Giffords can’t move the needle, I don’t know who can.
There is this, though:
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/283049-petraeus-mark-kelly-form-new-gun-control-group
Adam L Silverman
@Shawn in ShowMe: An FFL license is different.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: OK. That’s encouraging. The veterans and preventing suicide angles might, *might* start to move the needle…
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Well it means a lot of folks that previously thought General Petraues was a good guy are now sticking pins into little General Petraues dolls because he’s a traitor to the 2nd Amendment and his oath!
henqiguai
@Actually, Bob IS My Uncle(#213):
You checked out Christianity, lately?
Adam L Silverman
@henqiguai: Every copy is in circulation whenever I go to the library…
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: I didn’t mean “moving the needle” in quite *that* way…