Addressing the nation yet again on the occasion of yet another massacre perpetrated by yet another lunatic with easy access to military-grade weaponry, President Obama sounded terse and resigned on Sunday:
Today marks the most deadly shooting in American history. The shooter was apparently armed with a handgun and a powerful assault rifle. This massacre is therefore a further reminder of how easy it is for someone to get their hands on a weapon that lets them shoot people in a school, or in a house of worship, or a movie theater, or in a nightclub. And we have to decide if that’s the kind of country we want to be. And to actively do nothing is a decision as well.
It’s easy to throw up your hands in despair. The NRA and its allies seem all-powerful, able to prevent even commonsense gun safety measures that enjoy overwhelming bipartisan support. Gun interests have wholly co-opted one of our two political parties and compromised a portion of the other. They’ve harnessed vast resources to squelch the expansion of knowledge and dissemination of public health information related to gun violence and hijack the debate at every level with a volunteer army of brainwashed gun-humpers.
But despair is the wrong response. We need to get angry and determined and stay angry and determined. That’s the only way to win an uphill battle. Jamelle Bouie at Slate outlines the scale of the challenge:
The entire landscape of modern gun politics—from the Republican Party’s commitment to expansive gun rights to the real reticence with which Democrats have largely approached the issue—is a testament to the incredible success of the collective gun rights movement, from individual voters and activists to gun manufacturers and institutional forces like the NRA. President Obama could barnstorm the country and denounce every Republican who opposes background checks, and it wouldn’t change the extent to which the organized gun-rights movement has its fingers on the vital pressure points of American politics.
There is no countervailing equivalent, at least not at the moment. For as much as Americans support stricter gun laws, we lack the kind of dedicated, organized effort that could translate that mood into policy. Sure, there have been moves by Michael Bloomberg to push gun control into the political mainstream, the first real attempt to create a structural counterpart to the gun lobby. But even that is anemic compared with what the NRA and its allies have at their disposal.
So if you support efforts at gun control, don’t look to the president. The answer is to replicate the efforts of the gun-rights movement, from fully aligning the Democratic Party on the side of gun control, to leveraging grassroots action, to pressuring lawmakers, to punishing politicians—left and right—who don’t show the same commitment to restricting gun access. The president plays a part here—particularly in making gun control a Democratic Party priority again—but it’s ultimately a modest one, an advocate’s role.
The whole thing is worth a read, despite its click-baity headline. President Obama is already on board, as is future President Hillary Clinton, who said this in response to the Orlando massacre:
I believe weapons of war have no place on our streets and we may have our disagreements about gun safety regulations, but we should all be able to agree on a few essential things.
If the FBI is watching you for a suspected terrorist link, you shouldn’t be able to just go buy a gun with no questions asked. And you shouldn’t be able to exploit loopholes and evade criminal background checks by buying online or at a gun show. And yes, if you’re too dangerous to get on a plane, you are too dangerous to buy a gun in America.
Now, I know some will say that assault weapons and background checks are totally separate issues having nothing to do with terrorism. Well, in Orlando and San Bernardino terrorists used assault weapons, the AR-15. And they used it to kill Americans. That was the same assault weapon used to kill those little children in Sandy Hook.
Future Madam President is on board, and that’s great and essential, but that’s not enough. Those of us who are determined to fight this madness need to stiffen the spines of any Blue Dog Dems within our purview, counter NRA propaganda with facts wherever it crops up, and above all, make commonsense gun control a priority voting issue.
Action can take many forms. Over the past couple of decades, I’ve made it a priority to communicate with public officials at every level on this issue, join and donate to gun control groups, research candidates’ views on gun control and make it clear that I won’t support any politician with “NRA” stamped on his or her ass, write letters to the editor and even wade into comments sections of local news organizations to do battle with gun-fondling morons.
Does it seem futile? Yep. And I’ve given in to despair myself at various times, particularly in the wake of the inaction following the Sandy Hook atrocity. But then I tell myself that’s exactly what blood-gargling ghouls like Wayne LaPierre want: a demoralized opposition that is driven to apathy by despair.
So it’s up to us. If you support gun control, what are your ideas on how to push it forward?
germy
GOTV in every election including midterms.
Wayne gives each candidate a letter grade.
Actually makes it more convenient for us to decide who to support.
R Harrington
Malone: And *then* what are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way. Because they’re not gonna give up the fight, until one of you is dead.
Ness: I want to get Capone! I don’t know how to do it.
Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That’s* the *Chicago* way! And that’s how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I’m offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?
NotMax
Realize it’s a lot to expect, but perhaps we as a country can relinquish the Madam designation to the hoary mists of time and go with Ms. as the alternative to Mr.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
All transactions registered, NICS checks all around. And for a transfer to occur, minimum insurance level of 100/300.
Let the insurers put the gun nuts in pain.
The idea is not for an instant global fix, but to start dropping the numbers and shifting culture away from rabid gun love.
D58826
I think you can expand this to include things like tax policy, the social safety net, etc and the power of the 1%. The democrats/moderates/progressives simply do not have the access to power thru money, institutional long term staying power and infrastructure that the 1% have. We will see if any one remembers Bernie in 2018 but the Chamber of Commerce, Koch brothers and faux news will still be there. It is that long term staying power across administrations and at all levels of government that makes it very hard for progressive ideas to be even heard let alone passed into law.
Poopyman
@germy: Well, either you’re lysdexic in spelling GTFO, or you’re telling us to get out the fote, which is pretty close to the German accent my old neighbor had, and he would definitely second your sentiment were he still around.
But besides getting out the fote we have to make it clear that we’re fully on board with a candidate especially if s/he is anti-NRA. The political landscape these days makes it necessary for politicians to be wary if they harbor anti-NRA tendencies, and we need to change that public perception ASAP.
ETA – Well poop, you edited it (shakes fist).
waspuppet
We can start by calling them gun hobbyists. Because that’s what they are. If you’re not an on-duty cop or member of the military, your gun is your hobby.
Which is fine! We all have hobbies few other people get. But they dress theirs up in this “pious baloney,” and we don’t have to let them do it.
germy
It’s amazing how their arguments often follow each other word for word. They always trot out the “it’s just a tool, like a hammer or a drill.” Or they appeal to the righteousness of their hunting tradition. Lately though, they’ve been admitting it’s really all about defending themselves against “Chicago thugs” (this argument is used by people who live hundreds of miles from any inner city). They never used to admit their racial anxiety but I’m seeing more and more admissions of it: “You can’t wait for the police to show up if a thug is invading your house!!”
germy
@Poopyman:
Fote for Baud!
Rand Careaga
“Holy shit!” I thought, upon reading this a few seconds ago. “Did I miss the news last night? Wait, no, it’s Tuesday…” I haven’t had my coffee yet. What a difference a comma (or, in this instance, the appropriate lack thereof, can make).
NotMax
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
Truly feel a measurable majority of the country (not overwhelming, but significant) does not have a love of guns so much as a love of the mystique surrounding guns.
Puncture and chip away at that mystique (already misapplied when it concerns modern arms) and disapprobation will, if not more universally follow, increase to a tipping point.
Chris
@D58826:
And unions used to be the biggest component of our version of this. Reagan (or more likely his puppetmasters) understood this very well, it’s why such an all-out effort to go after unions was made.
Persia
Dalia Lithwick talked about how we got there this morning. It’s worth reading.
MomSense
There are probably a lot of lifetime NRA members who were signed up by their families when they were old enough to take a gun safety course so they could join in the traditional hunting activities with their families. I would love to know how many of these people think the NRA has gone too far. I’ve spoken to many who feel this way but the plural of anecdote isn’t anecdata.
Maybe we need rallies of our own where NRA members make a big show of ripping up their membership certificates and saying the NRA no longer speaks for them.
We probably need to become single issue voters, too which is tough in a coalition party like the Democratic party. I don’t know but we need numbers.
Both my neighbor and I have said things at town gatherings (my neighbor wrote an op-ed a few years ago and was on the county committee at one point so of course he is part of the conspiracy) so we are now having out of place trucks drive by. Update: police are going to keep going through our neighborhood and parking at the entrance. I guess that truck drove by during the day a couple times yesterday before I saw it last night which is why my neighbor called the police.
D58826
Haaretz (israeli paper) is reporting that an air strike killed ISIS head Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. Not the first such report but lets hope it’s true this time. There would be a certain symmetry about it give the comments of ‘old little hands’ and what happened in Orlando.
In the mean time a Baptist preacher in Oregon has given a sermon in which he said that the 49 dead in Orlando is a good start but the government has to do more. They should line up the gays and shot them all. How about we deport these Christians
Betty Cracker
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: Agree that an incremental approach is the only way. Gun rights weren’t radically expanded overnight, and swinging the pendulum back will be the work of generations.
@germy: That’s no accident. They tick off the talking points one by one — virtually identical every time. One tell is that they always put “assault weapons” and like terms in scare quotes; it’s like dittoheads saying “Democrat Party.” The more sophisticated use concern trolling to obfuscate specific issues. And they invariably invoke Chicago.
Chris
@germy:
That’s what happens when you live in an echo chamber.
Kirbster
@germy: Guns are tools, the Power Tools of Death.
NotMax
@D58826
Would that by any chance be the same braindead rabblerouser with whom Cruz shared a stage and sat silent while the same utterances were made?
WarMunchkin
I guess consider me a disagreer on a few essential things:
I live in New York, and I remember 9/11 – and the heroism and generosity in the days afterwards. I also remember the PATRIOT act, stop-and-frisk, violence and harassment towards Sikhs and Muslims, friends having theirs and their family’s assets frozen for no reason, arguments to make racial profiling an official policy of the United States, just to be safe, and I’d wager that at least a people still remember when civil liberties and the rule of law were ideas that we cared about, especially in national security contexts.
The FBI’s “no-fly list” is a George W. Bush policy designed to give the executive branch authority to restrict citizens without judicial oversight and without standing to challenge one’s placement on the list in court. In the hands of a Trump/Gingrich administration, it would simply be a legalized way to discriminate against political opponents, HUAC style.
The purpose of bringing up the no-fly list should be to point out the hypocrisy of Republicans – that they would support an extrajudicial list for flight, but not for guns. It shows that they view gun rights as sacrosanct and are willing to bend themselves into ideological pretzels to defend guns, even when national security is at stake. But we’re not pointing out their hypocrisy anymore, we’re trying to follow their example.
Anyone remember when Bush-era warrantless wiretaps were controversial? Why not set up a court to handle it, issue a warrant to take away someone’s flight privileges or gun purchasing privileges, just like a FISA court can issue one for wiretaps. And set up a mechanism for people to challenge their placement on that list in court or resolve their status so that they are not placed on a list permanently. Allow congressional oversight over said court.
germy
@MomSense:
I think of stuff like this every time someone says “We need to run progressives at the local level! Start with school board, dog catcher, anything!” Well, we need some brave people who don’t mind having their lives ruined or their families harassed.
Served
Just a note to everyone to reach out to any LGBT friends and family and tell them you love them. They need it more than ever.
Betty Cracker
@MomSense: First — thank you for speaking out, and stay safe!
Regarding the single-issue voter angle: I agree that’s a tough nut to crack in a coalition party, but maybe we can steal a page from the gun-humper handbook here and make sure the party as a whole adopts commonsense gun control as a core platform. I think we’ve made a lot of progress on that, not through our own efforts as much as via the overwhelming number of senseless tragedies we’ve endured as a nation plus overreach by our opponents.
@Served: Cosign that. Thank you.
NotMax
@WarMunchkin
Living in a state where the options to freely travel to any other state are
1) fly
2) buy/use a yacht
have rather vehement feelings about the no fly policy.
Wyliecoat
I think the biggest worry with starting an anti-gun movement is the very real fear that one of these gun nuts could attack you or your loved ones. That’s what keeps most of us away from the activism…it requires an insane kind of bravery.
Betty Cracker
@WarMunchkin: Excellent points.
D58826
@NotMax: I don’t think so.
Not to lay all the blame on the Baptists but until the Catholic Church stops referring to gays as ‘objectively disordered’ the largest Christian denomination will remain complicit in the this as well.
The Bishop of St. Petersburg Fla. said as much in a tweet. The response was uniformly vitriolic.
JPL
Paul Ryan just blamed the President for the murder in Orlando. They had a plan that would have prevented the attack.
D58826
@WarMunchkin:
But that would require Congress to actually step up and do it’s job. Maddow talked about the latest escalation in the current war against Daesh last night. DOD announced that Apache helicopters are now supporting the Iraqi troops fighting Daesh. She also mentioned that it has been two years since Obama asked for a congressional authorization. But this way the GOOPERS can have it both ways. They accept no responsibility for what is happening while complaining that Obama isn’t doing anything to fight Daesh.
Immanentize
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: I love the gun insurance idea. I have a friend working on these ideas at the Mass. AG’s Office and he says the problem with the liability insurance angle (like car insurance) is that there just isn’t a market yet built, so insurers really don’t know how to offer such a product.
And, we have to stop talking about gun accidents (oddly, Josh Marshal at TPM is wicked stubborn on this issue). They are not accidents, they are mostly negligent homicides and should be prosecuted each one as such.
Also too, as a law head, I cannot understand how the ban on suing gun manufacturers can be legal. There are some old cases (Keyes being the foremost IIRC) that basically say that once Congress creates a court, they cannot limit its jurisdiction based on type of claim — we used this argument a lot when Congress was trying to limit habeas corpus jurisdiction in federal courts. In some ways, they have not precluded the action, but have granted immunity which also has all sorts of equal protection problems. If I had time to fight in another arena, this would be it. But JLWOP is still keeping me pretty busy….
Chip Daniels
We can also look at the anti abortion forces, who have made incremental progress into tremendous success
Suppose gun stores were targeted for zoning restrictions, insurance requirements, public hearings, and picket lines?
There are choke points, places in the gun distribution pipelines that are susceptible to pressure.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Nailed it. This will be a long, hard slog with a lot of grassroots action and organizing. Lots of court cases which the good guys will probably not do so well with at first. And there will be a lot of assholes with guns who try to stop Americans from doing the right thing. Blood will be shed, no question.
I think the endgame here has to be first a Supreme Court decision that restricts use to the “well-organized militia” and then eventually a Constitutional amendment. I sympathize with the gun owners as I am one myself; but they’ve blocked repeated attempts to put even minimal controls in place and they’ve made it very clear that they are not going to allow anything to interfere with the God-given right to sell guns to everyone. So, so sorry, but we all lose our privileges because some pouty assholes insist that selling guns to actual real-life terrorists is perfectly acceptable.
hoodie
@germy:
Trump has normalized that type of discourse. I was wondering this morning if it is time to go full Godwin on him, e.g., Dem PACs start running ads that transition between Trump diatribes about Mexican rapists and rounding up Muslims and similar rants by Hitler or Mussolini, complete with subtitles. No explicit editorializing, but more of a “you make the choice, it is what it is” kind of thing. Johnson was smart enough to use such things about Goldwater, who wasn’t nearly as bad as Trump. People, particularly the press, need a jolt to shake them out of the normal horserace narrative. The Villagers may pooh-pooh the ads as over the top, but they will have a morbid fascination with them and run endless stories like “Is Donald Trump really the heir of Hitler?” It would likely either enrage Trump and cause even more outbursts or put Trump on the defensive, explaining why he’s not a fascist. The mouth breather types who support him will be offended, but the hell with them.
eric
@germy: or, they are making you and me safer with their concealed firearm. thanks, but no thanks.
Immanentize
@MomSense: I am so sorry to hear that story…. This is why guns must be regulated to a safe place. Sure, Heller says that the 2nd amendment protects gun ownership in the home, but nothing else. It is like the early pornography cases. Maybe that is a useful analogy legally?
randy khan
Start by appointing better judges to the Supreme Court and overturning Heller (or narrowing it into oblivion, which is the usual way these things happen). Congress probably is a lost cause for a long time on gun control, but states and cities are not, so fixing the Supreme Court is necessary to allow those laws to be effective.
agrippa
@germy:
I agree.
GOTV for gun control advocates. In every election
Bryan
Jim Wright at stonekettle station / stonekettle.com has a “7 stages of gun violence” piece up that he initially posted four years ago and updates as more mass murder gun death atrocities pile on. He also had a long post (sorry, no link) about steps to be taken short of trying, far too late, to close the barn door on this horror. There may have been more, but my takeaway from reading it from several months ago — and I’m paraphrasing — was to start holding gun owners responsible for what happens with their guns. No more, “oh, they’ve suffered enough” for the parents of some toddler who kills himself with the gun he found lying on the coffee table. No more, “it was just an accident” when some doofus drops the loaded weapon in his pocket and shoots himself or an innocent bystander. No making allowances, no exceptions. You carry a weapon of death, you carry the responsibility for everything that happens with or because of it. How is that not common sense amd the right thing to do? Who could possibly legitimately argue against it?
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: O/T, but I wanted to thank you for the tomato pie recipes. I made one a couple of days ago — kind of a hybrid of the two recipes to incorporate the ingredients I had on hand. It was really good! Sort of pizza-like!
germy
@MomSense:
George Bush Sr. did just that. He very publicly quit after objecting to some of their rhetoric.
agrippa
@Betty Cracker:
I agree. You are quite right about ‘stealing a page”
schrodinger's cat
One of the big problems is the media. Obama has had two opposition parties to contend with during his years in office, the Republicans and their media minions.
Sample report: DC is broken, Congress is broken that’s why we can’t do x,y or z but they don’t tell you why it is broken. Even yesterday on the Snooze Hour, giggly girl Amy Walter couldn’t suppress her giggles when she noted that none of what Obama said about gun control would pass the Congress but no explanation of why that was. They never want to point a finger at the Republicans in the Both-sidesville.
bemused
@JPL:
I watched the video of House Dems erupting after moment of silence for Orlando victims, Rep Clyburn asking where the gun legislation bill is. Paul Ryan won’t go there and as he gavels down, it looked to me like he was smirking. Anyone else see that?
Humdog
@NotMax: yeah, no on the Ms for President Hillary Clinton. It may read as equal to Mr., but try saying it out loud. Out loud, Ms sounds like you are stuttering an m word and it surely doesn’t sound like a title as full of respect as Mister. Madam President sounds awesome, and overdue!
indycat32
@bemused: To be fair smirking is Ryan’s normal facial expression
Punchy
Because it is. Next to gravity, the speed of light, and the Cubs flubbing all post-season chances, nothing is more “law” than Cleek’s. Really, the only way for Dems to get gun control is to be against it, forcing the GOP to respond by suddenly demanding gun control and confiscation. Cleek’s Law really is the most universal political law in existence.
Betty Cracker
@bemused: He was definitely smirking; I noticed that too and hoped fervently against hope that the coming Trumpocalypse would wipe that smirk off his mug by transferring the gavel from his hand to the fist of Nancy Smash.
Poopyman
@hoodie: I’m all for this, but let’s see him get nominated first.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker: Thank you! I think of them as Southern Quiche (anything with mayo makes it better!). When I was a very little nipper, my family moved to Raleigh N.C. for a year while my father worked with IBM. I kid you not — there was zero pizza to be had there then. We had to make our own and surprise all our neighbors! We also used to go to this diner and became very friendly with the lady who ran it — My Dad would ask her, “Where do the Yankees hang out around here? and she would always say, “See that tree, yonder?” 1966
PS — Did you try adding bacon? Also more tomatoes are always welcome depending on your pie plate.
Betty Cracker
@Punchy: You know what? Fuck that bullshit. It’s a steep climb, but not an impossible one. The Republican dead-enders are a huge obstacle, but woe-is-me-we-can’t-do-nuthin-about-it attitudes like yours are also part of the problem. And BTW, the goddamned Cubbies are the hottest team in baseball right now.
JPL
@bemused: Josh Ernest needs to call out the House republicans. Religious profiling and allowing Federal Contractors to discriminate would only add to the problem.
Paul Ryan needs to explain why the Republicans ignored the threat coming from Saudi Arabia before 9/11.
Mary G
We should press to close the exception for private or gun show sales, tax ammunition, and let people sue the manufacturers.
El Caganer
Good luck with the anti-gun thing: http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/helen_ubinas/20160614_Ubinas__I_bought_an_AR-15_semi-automatic_rifle_in_Philly_in_7_minutes.html
StringOnAStick
@germy: I know a gun nut who was signed up for a lifetime NRA membership as a kid. He’s brilliant, though unfortunately a diagnosed narcissist (therapy keeps him mostly OK), and he thinks there needs to be background checks and more. So, there are more than a few lifetime NRA members who don’t agree with the NRA leadership.
bemused
@Betty Cracker:
I fervently second that!
The first time I watched the video, it was slowing down (we live in the boonies and have that happen often). It slowed down right at that moment and I went, whoa, what was that. So I watched it a couple times more and damn, if that wasn’t a smirk, I don’t know what else to call it.
hitchhiker
@D58826:
Last week on the Axe Files David Axelrod interviewed Tim Phillips (from the Koch’s Americans for Prosperity) and — sickeningly but wisely — allowed him lots and lots of space to talk freely about the history & plans of the conservative movement. There’s one bit where Tim is talking about their multiple grassroots soldiers: evangelicals who respond to social issues, NRA members who respond to gun issues … but, oh dear, there was no similar team for economic issues.
They decided to create one, and they decided to start with Wisconsin.
Axelrod didn’t ask him how he thought that was going for the people of Wisconsin; he just let him explain how it works and how they now have ground organizations in 30 states.
My point is that there is a model for how this actually gets done.
bemused
I have sleep issues and was up way too early watching CBS overnight. Scott Pelley had an interview with 6 surgeons from Orland Medical Center about their experience treating so many shooting victims. They talked about the difference between the old saturday night gun injuries vs AR-15 damage.
What caught my attention was that just three months ago that medical center practiced an active shooter mass casualty drill. Pelley said since Sandy Hook, the American College of Surgeons have urged medical centers to practice this drill. It’s sickening.
I just noticed that wingnut sites are saying that the shooter’s weapon was not an AR-15 as if that makes any difference. I hate these people
Punchy
@Betty Cracker: I applaud your pluckiness, but if you think you’ll get a GOP-led House to vote in favor of significant gun control measures, I would say you’re just too ignorant of identity and tribal politics as it exists today. Anyone Repub voting “yes” for gun control legislation would be guaranteed to lose his/her job the next cycle. So unless you think these politicians find unemployment hip and cool, it’s a non-starter. GOPers voting for gun control are about as common as Dems voting for abortion restrictions. There may be a few, but never enough for critical mass. Tribalism, yo.
Now getting these GOPers replaced with Dems could do the trick. But until you flip the House, it’s just a non-starter. Not sure why my attitude–soaked in things called “reality” and “experience”–is such the problem.
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: Good lord! (On the hanging out story.) I didn’t add bacon to the first tomato pie, but I definitely will try that variation and others in the future. It’s a wonderful base recipe to have, and the whole family enjoyed it.
D58826
@D58826: bummer. NYT is reportings its all rumnors
Bobby Thomson
It has to start at the state level, but which state? VT? Hah!
Dork
It’s been said a million times by better people. If Sandy Hook, and the macabre images it produced didn’t carry any gun control measures with it, nothing will. Nothing. Gun violence only justifies more gun ownership, to a vocal minority (and always-voting) bloc of Americans. Ergo, every massacre is evidence of the need for more guns, not fewer.
The mindset of these Americans can never be changed. They live in fear, and pack heat accordingly. And they vote, write letters, and protest.
Waldo
Part of the problem with trying to counter the NRA:
Your average gun-control supporter rightly understands that mass shootings, as horrific and unpredictable as they are, are statistically unlikely to affect him directly.
Your average gun nut has been led by the NRA to believe that any restriction on guns, however practical, will lead to him losing all his guns.
The former is temporarily motivated by intermittent moments of horror; the latter always feels threatened. For the gun nut, it’s personal. For most of the rest of us, it’s not. That’s the status quo the NRA depends on.
trollhattan
@MomSense:
Very disheartening. If it continues I’ll recommend having a surveillance camera that can capture plate #s and perhaps the driver. They’re pretty cheap now and a video record could prove useful.
Betty Cracker
@Punchy: Your attitude is the problem because you appear to equate “we can’t pass gun control regulation right now” to “we can’t move the needle on gun control, any way, ever.” Yes we can. It’ll be the work of generations, as I said in the OP, but there’s not an immutable law of the universe that prevents it. That’s defeatist bullshit.
Bobby Thomson
@hitchhiker: there’s a model for how it works if you’re one of the wealthiest people in the world.
Bex
@schrodinger’s cat: You’re right, and this is the kind of stuff that just makes Obama weary of it all. I saw weariness, not despair in his remarks on Sunday, but as usual he told the truth when said we have to decide what kind of a country we want.
Miss Bianca
So, there is a petition in my inbox – one of those email petitions we all get from progressive causes, I’m sure – urging me to sign on to the notion that Congress should ban assault rifles.
In the past I would have signed it without thinking about it. But one of the things about hanging out at this joint is that even as I’m inspired to “keep charging “as Victor Wooten’s mom said (“when the going gets tough, that is a positive sign to keep charging”), I keep learning things that complicate my thoughts. It can’t hurt to sign a petition like that. But it’s not going to change a damn thing, and I have to stop thinking that a gesture like that is taking any meaningful, personal responsibility for shifitng the goal posts. So then the question becomes: What am I prepared to do? How far am I prepared to go to challenge the status quo?
I hear myself suddenly muttering, “feasiblility” and shaking my head. I live in a small Western town that has open carry gun nuts who have taken over the Fourth of July parade and are actively cheered on by the populace. Should I focus locally – possibly attracting the kind of unwelcome attention Momsense has talked about – or on national efforts? I don’t know. I want to keep on charging, but I’m not certain of my direction.
hovercraft
The reason for despair.
Nancy Letourneau has an interesting summary about mass shootings.
The courts have got to be ground zero. The GOP has been packing the courts for decades with anti-choice pro-gun fanatics. Obama has made progress in reconstituting their makeup, but we need a lot more judges. 12 years of Ronnie and Poppy and the 8 years of W, means that even on the courts where balance has been restored a lot of the retired judges who still here cases are GOP appointees. That is part of why the turtle does not mind all the vacancies, in addition to hoping they will be filled by a republican in the meantime they have republicans issuing the rulings now. Our side must figure out a way to keep our people involved in every election, and I just don’t know what it will take to do that. Donald may scare some to vote this year, but what about 2018, will they still come out? 2020 which is a census year fortunately is also a presidential year which should help with redistricting. But in 4 years the GOP can do a lot of damage.
MomSense
@Betty Cracker:
I spoke out a couple years ago and I’ll be honest–I’m afraid to now. This is part of the problem. I think a lot of people are afraid to say anything because the other side has guns and is hopped up on resentment, resistance fantasies, and conspiracy theories.
D58826
@hitchhiker: I’m not saying there isn’t a model. I’m saying that the right has certain institutional advantages the left doesn’t have. The Koch brothers and the res of the billionaires will pass their money and ideology down to the next generation. Just having all of that money confers a huge advantage. Bernie may have raised 200 million dollars 27 dollars at a time but how many times can he do that. The kochs can match that out of petty cash. Then you have the chamber of commerce, the American Manufacturing assoc. and all of the other trade groups that will outlive Bernie and even his youngest supporters. The kochs are seeding colleges and universities with rightwing scholarships and endowments to breed the next generation of lawyers, economists, bankers, etc. Then there are the well funded think tanks that provide articles, seminars and more importantly jobs for aspiring young 1%ers. They also provide a well paying gig for GOPer politicans between terms in congress or between GOP administrations in the WH. They provide the bench for the right wing executive branch appointees to FTC, EEOC, EPA, etc. Look at the resume’s of most of the GOpper judges – the Federalist society is a must have checkbox. Even with union support the left has nothing to match this. And without deep pocketed supporters who are willing to play the long game the left will never have the needed money. What is one of Bernie’s big issues – get big money out of politics. Fat chance the GOP will go along with that. And if the democrats adopt his $27.00 model it will be like facing an AR15 with a spitball. I’m not suggesting that I like the dark money that is fouling the system but without big bucks the game is over.
Splitting Image
The first and most important task has to be getting vote #5 seated in the Supreme Court. Any laws that try to improve matters need to be defended by the phrase “Justice Ginsburg, writing for the majority…” or they won’t survive a judicial challenge. Obviously, she and Breyer won’t be around forever, so that means electing a President who will nominate good replacements and a Senate that will approve them. This work might be completed by November, or Americans might miss the window entirely by electing Clinton but leaving McConnell in charge of the Senate.
After that, Democrats need to begin working on the state houses. With a friendly Supreme Court, blue states can begin the hard work of creating a sensible regulatory framework.
The other thing is that gun nuttery needs to be linked with Trumpism. There are little pockets of hunters and gun collectors around the country who aren’t hurting anything, but hiding behind them are thousands of fascists and white nationalists gung-ho for a race war. The Orlando shooter may have taken advantage of the laws which the nutters wrote for themselves, but the real danger is coming from the Ammon Bundys of the country and the lawmakers like Michele Fiore and Jason Chaffetz who are pandering to them, not to mention the NRA. They’re the reason you can’t do a background check and stop a suspected terrorist from buying a gun. Conservatives who are beginning to realize that Trump is damaging the conservative brand, and that Trumpism has been slowly building in the conservative coalition for decades, need to go a step further and realize that the ammosexuals are damaging the interests of more legitimate gun owners, and that their power has been slowly building for decades as well.
At this point, gun rights and white privilege are so tightly intertwined that I can’t see one ending without the other. If a black kid playing with a toy gun can be gunned down in an open-carry state without so much as a peep from the NRA, I don’t see how anybody can look at them as anything other than white men defending the right to carry as one of the few privileges they have that visible minorities don’t.* Which brings us back to the id of white privilege, Donald Trump. He’s got to be crushed. And the NRA needs to be joined at the hip with him when he goes down.
*In real life, there are plenty of privileges which white people have and visible minorities don’t. But movement conservatives will deny to the last breath that most of them exist. This privilege, on the other hand, they are proud of.
schrodinger's cat
deleted
bemused
@schrodinger’s cat:
What’s her beef with old ladies?
schrodinger's cat
BTW I just waded into the fever swamp, that is The Thinking Housewife. She has gone completely bonkers now.
She did not even wait for a week to the declare that the Orlando massacre was a hoax. Its all a ploy to take away your guns by Obama. She likes Trump but thinks he doesn’t go far enough. She has a found a new group of people to hate, old ladies.
ETA: Trying again, because the earlier comment got stuck in moderation
schrodinger's cat
@bemused: They don’t dress feminine enough, their unisex clothing makes them look like gnomes (her words, not mine).
Betty Cracker
@Splitting Image: All excellent points. As liberals, pretty much anything we care about — choice, voting rights, marriage equality, equal pay, criminal justice reform AND gun control, etc. — hinges on having a decent court, which is why I want to shake the stuffing out of the few remaining Bernie dead-enders dribbling onto my FB page.
Gin & Tonic
@Dork: Cultural mores can change. When I started working, you could smoke anywhere in the office. When I started driving, “having a nightcap” and then driving home was accepted practice. People still smoke, and people still drive under the influence, but a *lot* less. In the other direction, it’s a little over 40 years since Roe v Wade, and what was accepted as a routine medical procedure and constitutional right has become a nearly inaccessible option for a large portion of the US population.
One foot in front of the other, and you can make progress.
Kryptik
@Punchy:
@hovercraft:
Between these two things, I’m about as faithless in the inevitability of change for the good as others. It’s not just that it seems impossibly hard to move the needle the right way, it’s that time and time again, with the way things are rigged, trying to move the needle back towards sanity ends up with an inevitable rush of people with actual, tangible, and overwhelming power convincing god knows how many people to rush and shove the needle back toward crazy almost purely out of spite and “FUCK YOU LIBERALS FOREVER!!!” And it works, it fucking works almost every fucking single time.
It honest to god feels like it’s not that activism isn’t working, it’s that our activism won’t work and will never work because the country still subsists mainly out of spite and hate. And that the pendulum won’t swing back until the right-wing truly ‘Takes their country back’, and that’s an ugliness that I don’t wish on anyone, but can’t help but see as painfully inevitable.
Villago Delenda Est
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: This. With rights come responsibilities. Right now, the equation is badly flawed. If you want a firearm, be prepared to accept the responsibilities that go with it…the FINANCIAL responsibilities.
bemused
@schrodinger’s cat:
Weird.
Kryptik
@MomSense:
Fear not just of retaliation, but of the backfire effect: people going even further bore into the resentment, conspiracy, and prejudicial rage outright because you suggest the opposite and are on the opposite tribe. And they have the outrageous and enormous backing of a lot of soft and hard power in this country.
boatboy_srq
@JPL: I’m not sure that Ryan has figured out all the implications of a well armed LGBT community.
Hoodie
@Poopyman: That’s cynical and he’s too dangerous to wait for that. You have to shape the Republicans leadership’s sense of their party loyalty to that they realize it’s better for them to dump Trump and lose rather than keep Trump and lose. They’re going to lose either way. When he’s the nominee, they’ll have to protect him or they will be marginalized in their own party. Waiting doesn’t measurably improve Hillary’s chances, it just increases the odds that his nuts will completely take over the GOP and have a chance at the White House. Even if the GOP leadership manages to dump him before the nomination, they’ll still have a fractured party, with any candidate they put forward having to deal with a bunch of disillusioned Trump supporters.
As for gun control, I almost think it’s a secondary issue to stopping Trump. That speech yesterday was chilling.
danielx
“Hobbyist” isn’t quite the right word, I think. There are adjectives – obsessed, possessed by, etc – but the point is that for your serious gun freak, his whole identity (including that whole masculinity/testosterone thing) is bound up with firearms, the bigger the better. I say “his”, although yes, there are women out there too, like that idiot who got shot with her own gun by her four year old son a while back. However…for a lot of the males, anyway, any threat at all to possession of firearms – again, the bigger the better – might as well be a threat to cut off their testicles and maybe their dicks as well. It’s beyond reason or logic. If a mother of one of those children killed at Sandy Hook asked one of these freaks whether their “hobby” was more important than the life of her child, he/she would say “yes” without a moment’s hesitation. All the bullshit about the Second Amendment, resisting tyranny and all that is just that, bullshit. In this day and age, armed resistance to the federal government for whatever reason will only get you one of two things, death or prison. So it’s as much about identity as rights. Nobody is talking about confiscating grandpappy’s Winchester lever action .30-.30, or outlawing possession of such weapons either. But a hunting weapon doesn’t give the same testosterone boost to the identity as an AR-15 or one of its many progeny, which were after all designed to enable the killing of large numbers of people in short order. So convincing people they should give up the right to possess or own such weapons will not be easy, to put it mildly. Even those who would never ever contemplate shooting people (except in fantasy) – a group which, to be fair, includes the vast majority of gun owners – will resist confiscation of their weapons. I say confiscation because these folks will never willingly give up their dicks – er, weapons, weapons! Ever.
bemused
@schrodinger’s cat:
I went there out of curiosity. Whew, she is deranged. Aside from the crazy, she did remind of of a couple of bitchy female teachers from grade and high school. You know, the type that hates the girls more than the boys.
Punchy
@Betty Cracker: What the hell does claptrap like “move the needle” supposed to mean, if it doesn’t mean significant gun control legislation? Again, go ahead with your rah-rah attitude, but it’s just not realistic with a GOP House. Yes, if in another generation the House flips and the Dems have all 4 bodies (House, Senate, WH, and the all important SCOTUS), then certainly gun control will pass.
But that’s based on voting these fuckers out, not trying to convince these fuckers to change their votes. If you’re arguing the former, we’re on the same page. If, however, you’re hoping for the latter, well….that’s just a fool’s errand.
EBT
It’s a dead issue until a gun incident brings tragedy to elected officials. One of their kids freaks and kills the kids of four others or some such. Then you’ll see change.
MomSense
@bemused:
The stuff on that site is now pretty mainstream among the ammosexuals in terms of the conspiracies. It is truly scary stuff and facts do not work with these people.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: You’ve hit the bullseye, if I may use that phrase here. The 2nd Amendment absolutists/maximalists provided and then relentlessly pushed a narrative of what the 2nd Amendment is, why it was created, how it should be interpreted, and how it should be applied. They did this for over 40 years. And by doing so they moved the popular understanding on the issue. Some of the folks responsible did it because they honestly believe it, some did it for the usual reasons of pursuit of power and wealth, but it worked. Unless the narrative is changed you aren’t going to move the needle on this. Despite the increase in the number of mass shootings – there were two yesterday and one that could have been a third if things had gone really bad – and the wall to wall media coverage of them, the news media does a terrible job covering the issue. Reporters, even at the national and cable networks largely do not know the difference between a Ruger 10/22 and a Bushmaster AR15. Nor do they know the difference between a GLOCK 19 and a Dan Wesson Valor and a Colt Python. As a result it is impossible to learn anything from the news coverage. And despite the increase in the number of mass shootings, and the increase in homicides in specific locations this year, violent crime is still at an all time low and down in almost all parts of the US. So having to worry about these things is something that most Americans spare little mental energy on, for whatever reason, unless they are energized on one side of the issue or the other. So to circle back: the key is narrative. The story has to be changed. And the new story has to be a good and engaging one.
nonynony
@Punchy: I would assume that “work of generations” would involve voting a number of the current fuckers out, yes.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Well, but I read in the comments section of something that Hillary totally planned and implemented the Orlando massacre to distract law enforcement from arresting her and sending her to jail. These two scenarios can’t both be true, now, can they?
Partisancheese
LOL has there been any progressive or serious cause that the Democratic party has taken that hasn’t been approached in a milquetoast, compromised, weak way? Expecting Democrats to counterbalance the NRA is futile, you are always going to be held up by weak blue dog corporatist sell-outs, and not be serious in any conviction, cause as a centrist party, there is nothing worth taking a passionate stand about, since you don’t want to seem ‘unreasonable’. Haha, we will see how much progress on gun control is made when the next mass shooting happens. My bet is zero.
? Martin
@WarMunchkin:
I disagree. By comparing those things you are acceding that there is a constitutional right for anyone to own any gun they want at any time. No such right should exist. Gun ownership should be a privilege that one has to earn, to demonstrate that you can be trusted with one, that you have the temperament for one, the training, and so on.
That is the fundamental matter at hand. As soon as you conceded that gun ownership is a fundamental right, then we’re pretty much fucked as there’s simply nothing that can be done.
trollhattan
@EBT:
I’ll predict a robust round of blame-the-parents should that occur.
Adam L Silverman
@D58826: It was a hoax. Someone digitally altered an IS propaganda statement into an announcement that al Baghdadi was killed. It was quickly picked up by Iraqi and other Arab news outlets, then spread to the Turkish ones, then the Russian, and they everywhere else. It is important to note/remember that Iraqi news media, as well as news media in other Arab states routinely report gossip as factual news. Not that this really differentiates them from US news media, but…
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-fake-propaganda-statement-sparks-false-reports-of-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadis-death-in-us-air-a7081576.html
bemused
@MomSense:
Nope. Not long ago I was talking to a local woman and out of nowhere she asked me if I watch Alex Jones. I know the expression on my face must have told her before I even replied that she picked the wrong person to ask.
hovercraft
@Kryptik:
Everyone thinks of the civil rights movement as the fights that occurred in the sixties. But it was a much longer slog than that, remember the suffragette movement was initially aligned with the civil rights movement until they disagreed about which should go first, and that was early last century. These fights take time and for every small bit of progress there is a backlash and two steps back. Last night there was a gay man being interviewed and he was asked about the rapid strides made by the LGBT community. He made the analogy of a band that spends years on the road playing no name clubs and the one day has a hit and is suddenly an overnight success.
These things take time.
Joel
I don’t know if anyone has been keeping tabs on the conspiracy theories regarding the California primaries, but I’m unfortunately dealing with close relatives that have been wrapped up in them.
Suffice to say, I did a little investigation.
As of Friday last week, Clinton was leading Sanders (1940580-1502043) in California a 12-point margin.
Since then, Clinton and Sanders have gained 270969 and 232879 votes, respectively, from provisional and mail-in counts. The margin of those counts is smaller, but still strongly in favor of Clinton (roughly 8 points). All of this data is available at the California Secretary of State website.
Based on the reporting by the California secretary of state, there are roughly 1.8 million ballots to be counted. Sanders would have to win those ballots by a 63-37 margin in order to take 50.1% of the vote in California. In other words, not going to happen.
This is not even considering the *other* conspiracy theory that’s floating around these days.
JPL
NBC news is reporting that the wife of the murderer knew about the attack and tried to convince him not to carry it out.
Betty Cracker
@Punchy: The steps necessary to move the needle are outlined in the original post, and yes, electing better officials at every level is a key part of it. So is making sure we elect presidents who appoint non-nutty Supreme Court justices. So is changing the culture (and BTW, that’s happening; fewer gun owners despite ever more guns). There are hardcore gun nuts in DC and in statehouses nationwide who will never flip their vote, of course. But there are also countless bagmen at every level whose primary objective is to stay in office, and if you can put the fear of FSM into those bastards, they’ll dance whatever tune you play. But the main thing is to keep fighting instead of cradling your nuts on the sideline. You gotta keep punching, Punchy!
Matt McIrvin
It won’t particularly help with mass shootings with AR-15s, but I think the background of suicides and domestic homicides in ones and twos could be greatly reduced by a campaign against handguns for home defense, modeled on the very successful campaigns against smoking. Nearly all adults used to smoke in the United States, it was abnormal not to, and they’d often get extremely pissy if anyone objected. A lot of people still smoke, but it’s a minority.
We need to give the general public, people who might not be hardcore political NRA types, the idea that even if you live in a high-crime neighborhood, having a gun around the house doesn’t actually make you safer. Have doctors ask patients about guns at their checkup the same way they ask about smoking, seatbelts and alcohol. It’d probably take decades to get the idea across, and the core gun fans will never change their minds, but the decline in smoking was slow too.
Mnemosyne
For the naysayers, does anyone remember when the NAACP was formed, and how long after that the first modern (though insufficient) Civil Rights Act was passed?
Those years are 1909 and 1957.
How about the amount of time between Seneca Falls and the passage of the 19th Amendment?
Jesus, I hate today’s liberals. If it can’t be done in the next 2 years, you throw up your fucking hands and decide we shouldn’t do anything at all.
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: I have the 16 page strategy. I’ve read through it. I had planned on posting about it yesterday, but events got away from us all. It isn’t very good. I’ll have a post about it by the end of the week.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: @NotMax: Well then, the question becomes…what shape is the new narrative going to take? The campaigns against drunk driving and cigarettes focused on the health risks, on the catastrophe of deaths caused by drunk driving… Well, we all know that there are significant health risks associated with guns….and catastrophic deaths associated with them…but the cultural mystique associated with guns goes beyond those associated with smoking and drinking. I think it’s true thart it’s associated with the care, maintenance, and feeding of white (not exclusively male) privilege. Chipping away at *that* edifice – well…
@Bryan: Yeah, I’m a big fan of Jim Wright and his approach. That might be the part to emphasize – “with rights come responsibilities”. Hammer that idea again and again and again – “no one’s coming to take your guns. But you have to be prepared – really prepared – to face the consequences if your gun gets used in a crime.”
Prometheus Shrugged
@WarMunchkin: Your comments are spot on. Obama expressly played up the hypocrisy aspect in his original remarks to the town hall gun store owner; Hillary did not follow this lead, unfortunately.
Also, anyone who thinks that this fossil no fly list strategy is a good idea should try flying while merely having the same name as someone on the no-fly list. I have to go at least 3 hours early for even short domestic flights because I can’t check in on line, can’t use the automated boarding pass machines, have to have gate agents check over my passport for 30 minutes in the back room. Unbelievable inefficiency–all for the charade of making people “feel safe.”
Adam L Silverman
@Immanentize: The problem you’re going to have is that the groups providing insurance, and its mostly to cover costs if one is prosecuted or sued if one uses a gun in self defense, though some also offer liability coverage, is that they’re voluntary. The minute they become mandatory the 2nd Amendment absolutist crowd will start screaming bloody murder. Just go over to a firearms blog or site and read the comments about being forced to buy automobile insurance, which is for “a privilege, not a right”. What you have is a significant overlap among the most fervent supporters of the absolutist argument of the 2nd Amendment and the Americans that would like it if every other American simply disappeared so no one could or would bother them about anything.
D58826
@Adam L Silverman: Sigh. I saw it on the Haaretz (israeli paper) twitter feed which is a bit more reliable. .
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodinger’s cat:
@SiubhanDuinne:
Holy crap. After I posted my comment, which was obviously meant as purest snark, I decided to have a look at The Thinking Housewife (which I’d never heard of before) and damned if she doesn’t have an article claiming exactly that — that HRC organized Orlando as a distraction from her own legal (email) woes. Every time I start feeling that my gob is safe, it gets smacked again.
Adam L Silverman
@bemused: He always looks like he’s smirking. Its his default setting.
? Martin
@Partisancheese: Speak for yourself. California has been steadily expanding abortion rights, chipping away at the anti-science peddled by the right. We’ve also been steadily expanding gun control measures to where we do confiscate guns, both temporarily and permanently. California overall has also not been gripped by this purity pony disease that liberals in the rest of the country seem constantly afflicted by. We identified issues that we wanted to address and then elected people who would address them, not people that would ‘advance the narrative’ or ‘move the overton window’ or other bullshit. It’s been steady, incremental progress, not revolution. We voted for people that would pass laws, fight in court, and fucking get it done. I don’t think most of the country has even bothered to notice the extent to which CA is bucking the national trends, instead whining that their little corner is no better off rather than acknowledge that ⅛ of the US is successfully rushing in the opposite direction of the GOP and that template can be applied in other places. It’s not just that we’ve blunted their gains, but we’ve actively reversed their direction. Other states require doctors to have admitting rights to perform abortions – we let PAs and various nurse practitioners do them. Other states expand carry laws, we ban them, win in court, and then confiscate the guns of people that shouldn’t have them.
And don’t put up any bullshit about how CA could afford to do these things – the state was in a fucking death spiral just a few years ago. While everyone was still fighting to block ACA in favor of single payer, CA mobilized an active purchaser exchange which delivers some of the benefits of single payer. Most democrats don’t even realize that CAs exchange is different and is better. Even many people on this blog don’t realize that with the unbearably excellent Mayhew constantly explaining it. Did those people on the left wanting to ban the bill ever step up and push for an active exchange in their market? Nope. They wanted their ideological talking points and that was it.
You constantly calling Democrats ‘centrist’ is quite a lot of the problem. You don’t get what actually causes change to happen in this country. A willingness to get any progress is not centrism, it’s pragmatism. You undermine the very people who will deliver what you want. Clinton will almost certainly improve upon Obama’s work in every way, yet she’s constantly labeled a centrist or corporatist from the activist left. You don’t actually want progress, you just want your ideological brownie points.
Adam L Silverman
@Mary G: Yes, but with one clarification. All firearms purchases at gun shows between a buyer and a licensed seller – as in someone with a Federal Firearms License (FFL) issued by the ATF authorizing them to sell firearms (there are different classes) – must have a background check in every state. Everyone who sets up a booth at a gun show and is selling guns has to have a FFL. Some states, however, do not require private sellers who go to gun shows and simply walk around with one or more firearms for sale and/or trade to have a background sale done. Usually the show itself will not allow the sale within the guns show and the transaction has to be taken outside to complete. Some states do require a FFL certified transfer and background check. It is this loophole you want to close. Or rather, what you want to do is require all firearms sales, even those between private parties, to be subject to a FFL certified transfer and background check. There are other exemptions to background checks. For instance, guns manufactured before 1890 or so are considered antiques and exempted from FFL transfer requirements and background checks.
Betty Cracker
@Matt McIrvin:
The NRA apparently understands the danger in this. Their lobbyist in FL wrote a bill criminalizing these doctor-patient discussions.
Adam L Silverman
@StringOnAStick: There are also a lot of lifetime members that have passed away, but the NRA continues to claim they are active members because they don’t check.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Amen.
bemused
@Adam L Silverman:
Evidently, he didn’t get it wiped off his face nearly enough earlier in his life. Now it’s permanent.
Adam L Silverman
@bemused: It was an AR pattern rifle. From what I’ve seen it was a SIG Sauer 516 (based on the pictures).
gvg
the problem with advocating gun control now is fear we will be murdered by gun thugs. That’s why I now consider the ammosexuals to be a threat to our democracy. this rampage may be more shocking in size but I really feel the Gabby Giffords attack was worse. Politicians are expected now to remain polite and act as if nothing is wrong when these open carry nuts parade around. Any rally, speech, or social gathering where the gun rights extremists get to hang around, they are scaring people who are opposed into knuckling under. Any posting of anyone’s address and phone numbers, comments about I know where you live etc, add up to intimidation. We need actually to address some social norms and change them to make restraining orders easier and more effective, sanctions and jail for stalking, direct cops to take that seriously and make sure they have resources to do so when they start doing it, before we can even get to actually reforming gun laws. Stepping out now and saying I want tougher gun laws is hard.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
If we can keep it together as a party, I actually think this November is a big opportunity to run up the score. We should definitely go for the House and Senate and as many state legislatures and governors as we can. Not only should der Trump’s racism be rewarded with a humiliating defeat, but we should go after every single open elected office. Really, we won’t make progress on gun safety, climate change, livable wages, or anything unless we just go for it this election.
That Trump is racist, fascist, completely unqualified, ignorant, narcissistic, dangerous and lots of other bad things presents us with an opportunity if we are brave and willing to work for it.
bemused
@Adam L Silverman:
Ok. It infuriates me that gun nuts are bent out of shape that the media got the type of rifle wrong completely ignoring the amount of carnage either has the capacity to do.
sunny raines
gun regulation will occur, and the clear original meaning of the 2nd Amendment will be restored to its actual meaning without the 2008 interpretation as an “individual” right that is not part of the 2nd Amendment, because these things are so obviously right, and those fighting them are weak, cowardly, and craven – they cannot succeed, long term. As with all things right and just (equality for instance), it is only a matter of when. The sad part is the many that will die and suffer unnecessarily until victory over wanton gun ownership is achieved.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Mnemosyne
@MomSense:
This! I really think that the Obama coalition is on board with gun control, especially African-Americans who are worried about more trigger-happy George Zimmermanns wandering around out there.
They may be armed, but there are more of us than there are of them, and they can’t see into the voting booth.
Splitting Image
@Punchy:
A lot of the legislation to regulate guns would have to be written at the state level, so the House of Representatives isn’t the most serious choke point. At the moment, all 50 states are hamstrung because of a conservative run of victories in the Supreme Court, especially the Heller decision. Heller can be overturned, if the Democrats can take control of the Court. Once that’s done, voters can begin lobbying Democratic-controlled state governments to pass some kind of regulation. That may limit it to about 12 or 15 to start with, but that will include some of the biggest ones, like New York and California.
The Democrats need to rebuild at the state level for a lot of reasons, but being stymied in 35 states by Republican legislatures is better than being stymied in all 50 by the Supreme Court. That is “moving the needle”, even if more needs to be done.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Ahh, the Gun Granny, Marion Hammer. She is the dumb dumb that lobbied against naming the Scrub Jay the Florida State bird because she confused it with the cuckoo. She argued that law abiding, gun fearing Floridians don’t want a state bird that engages in criminal theft of other bird’s homes.
Adam L Silverman
@bemused: They didn’t really get it wrong. This is SIG’s version/variant of the AR pattern rifle. As I wrote in a comment the other day: the 2nd Amendment absolutists/maximalists make a fetish out of properly identifying these things. Failure to do so demonstrates one is not really part of the group and shows how stupid the media and others are that they can’t get the little things correct.
Betty Cracker
@bemused: I find that infuriating as well. “AR” is a brand name. So fucking what? If you sneezed and I offered you a “Kleenex” from a box of Puffs brand tissues, would you stand there with snot running down your face and refuse to take it because I named the product inaccurately? Jesus, what an idiotic non-issue.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: Clips vs magazines redux.
Betty Cracker
@Adam L Silverman: Jeebus, I hadn’t heard about the Scrub Jay stupidity! What a maroon.
JustRuss
@Waldo: I was going to say the same, but you nailed it. Gunhumpers are a minority but they love love LOVE their guns. I really want gun control, but I want a lot of other things as much or more, I can’t match their passion.
bemused
@Adam L Silverman:
Fetishistic. Perfect description. What isn’t a fetish with these gun nuts.
@Betty Cracker:
Not only idiotic but sick.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m going to go off on a semi-related rant that’s not actually directed at you, but …
I don’t give a shit what the exact model of the gun was. I really don’t. IMO, getting into gun nerd discussions about the exact make and model is a deliberate attempt to get off into the weeds and pull the discussion away from the fact that 49 people were murdered. Forty. Nine. The exact type of gun used doesn’t fucking matter.
I don’t need to speak the gun hobbyists’ language. If they’re more concerned with the exact make and model than the fact that 49 people are dead, then we need to be discussing their lack of fucking empathy and human feeling, not gun models.
If hobbyists want to have that discussion among themselves, fine, but the whole the news didn’t have the exact make and model right! is misdirection, and we all know it.
Immanentize
@Mnemosyne: I’m totally with you but for the last sentence. People will always be impatient and there is power in that. There were plenty in the civil rights movement who didn’t want to wait another day — Mississippi Goddam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVQjGGJVSXc
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Its not even a brand name. Its a product designator. ArmaLite never really produced them, they just licensed the initials for the designator. AR stands for ArmaLite.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Here you go:
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/nras-hammer-taking-aim-at-the-little-scrub-jay-bird—-again/2257115
When I was at UF I somehow wound up teaching State and Local Politics (don’t ask), so I used a lot of Florida stuff. As a result I paid a lot of attention to what the lobbylature was doing.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: I know its not directed at me, no worries. I was just answering someone else’s question.
Immanentize
A historically proven method of getting broad consensus and fast action on gun control —
The Panthers
http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2015/10/gun_control_and_the_disarming_of_the_black_community/
Mnemosyne
@Immanentize:
Right, but even the impatient ones didn’t throw up their hands and decide that nothing was going to change. They still tried to get out there and do shit.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: This x infinity.
Bill
@germy: The argument I hear most often is that they need guns – lots and lots of guns – to defend themselves against their own government. An argument that fails on so many levels it’s astounding, yet I hear it all the time.
Immanentize
@Mnemosyne: “True” multiplied by always. And to switch genres — As Public Image Limited sang, “Anger is an Energy!”
Rise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN-GGeNPQEg
? Martin
@Splitting Image:
We are not as hamstrung as we claim to be. The gun the shooter used is illegal in CA, and that has been held up by the courts. We have banned much of the ammunition used by that gun type. We are closing loopholes that would make similar guns banned. We are confiscating guns from people that run into criminal trouble later and from people that family members claim are threats to others. All of these things are possible now and can be implemented nationally. So far I only think CA has. Even fucking Connecticut, a comparably blue state where Sandy Hook occurred, hasn’t taken some of the steps that CA has.
There’s a million things that USSC permits that states, even blue states, simply aren’t doing. CA can do much more as well. A lot of this is politicians including Democrats at the state level using the feds as cover for not acting, and the feds doing the same. It’s bullshit, and we shouldn’t give them that cover.
Mnemosyne
@Bill:
Well, now I’m going to say something that I know Betty is going to disagree with me on ;-) — I really do think that the base of a lot of anti-government gun nuttery is racism. The origin was the government didn’t protect me from all of Those People when they rose up and started making trouble, so clearly I need to protect myself from now on.
I think it’s metastatized a bit and a lot of the younger gun nuts don’t realize that’s the origin, they just know that they can’t trust the government, but can’t articulate a reason why, because that racist origin of the meme has been suppressed. Kind of like how the fundamentalist Protestant opposition to abortion is younger than the Happy Meal, but you now have thousands of people convinced that it’s been the Word of God from the beginning. It’s even starting to show up in some conservative strains of Judaism and Islam, both of which have said for thousands of years that the life of the mother comes first.
Darrin Ziliak (formerly glocksman)
When it comes to mass shootings, the problem isn’t the AKM or AR-15 itself, but magazine capacity.
An AWB compliant AR with a with a 30 round magazine is just as lethal as its post-ban counterpart, except for the lack of a bayonet mount.
To me, the place to start is banning the retail sale of over 10 round magazines for any centerfire weapon, including handguns.
State level bans on possession of high capacity magazines can be added on in states that will pass them (CA,NY,etc.).
Later on, perhaps a buyback of high capacity magazines can be added the the initial Federal ban..
The initial goal is to reduce the number of high capacity magazines in circulation in a way that can actually pass Congress, and as of right now, there are more than enough Republicans and Democrats who would oppose a more sweeping ban
bemused
@Bill:
Right. So did the Bundy bunch that are sitting in jail.
Stan
@waspuppet: I’m a gun hobbyist and – I agree.
Amaranthine RBG
There are a number of fairly non-controversial measures that one can pursue: better safety training for shooters, providing free trigger locks to gun owners, urging legislation requiring safe storage of firearms, as well as enforcement of current laws regarding straw purchasers (very few people are ever prosecuted for this) and updating records so that people accused of domestic violence and other disqualifying crimes are prevented from purchasing firearms.
Unfortunately the gun control discussion in this country is perverse and focuses on things like mass shootings and banning assault weapons which collectively result in a very small percentage of gun-related deaths and injuries.
The discussion is so poisoned that I don’t hold out much hope for meaningful reform anytime soon.
Amaranthine RBG
@? Martin:
I haven’t looked at the law in a while, but I think the type of gun he used (an AR variant) is legal in California but it has to be fitted with a magazine release that requires a tool to release the magazine [even if that tool is just a tip of a bullet one presses into a recessed hole] and that there are restrictions on magazine size.
Adam L Silverman
@Amaranthine RBG: Yep, bullet button, ten round total capacity magazine, and non expanding stock are CA compliant if I’m recalling correctly.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Not sure why you think I’d disagree with that; of course that’s a part of it. I don’t buy into grand unifying theories that attribute every societal ill in America to racism, but certainly it’s at the root of many of our most intractable problems, and I would never deny that.
Stan
@Adam L Silverman: Yes….only difference I can see between an AR-15 and the sig sauer is that the latter has a gas piston.
Betty Cracker
@Amaranthine RBG:
Yeah, it’s the hyper-focus on mass shootings and weapons designed to mow down scores of people in under a minute that’s the problem, not the fact that a lobbying organization and its minions have managed to block any and all commonsense safety measures regardless of bipartisan public support, stymie research on public health issues related to guns, block application of gun safety technology, restrict speech in the doctor-patient relationship, etc. Wear that chicken out.
Splitting Image
@? Martin:
Yeah, I saw your other comment after I posted, and you’re right. Other states could be following California’s example, but I think the key part of your state’s success is that the laws which your legislature passed were upheld in court. The chances of this happening in other states depends on the makeup of the courts in those states, and not every state has reduced the GOP to irrelevance the way California has. (In other words, this is another thing you can thank Pete Wilson for.)
You’re also right about cowardly politicians. But I think the best way to yank away the fig leaf they are hiding behind is to provide a more friendly Supreme Court. Especially since Scalia’s seat is there for the taking. Having Ginsburg and Sotomayor writing the opinions rather than the dissents is the crucial change the country needs to make here.
lucslawyer
@Amaranthine RBG:
You know, the more I read your posts here, the more I agree with Betty C. – please take your concern-troll crap somewhere else. Your insistence on minimizing incidents such as Orlando is nothing more than “kick the can down the road until the brouhaha dies down” nra patter.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
It’s people like that fucktard ARBG who make me want to ban all guns entirely, because they’re so obviously trying to make up for their very small peni$ size and the fact that Mommy took their toys away when they decided to throw them at other people instead of playing with them. HE’S NEVER GOING TO LET MOMMY TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM HIM EVER AGAIN!
lucslawyer
A technical question: would it be possible to develop a computer chip that could be implanted in a firearm during the manufacturing process that would limit the number of rounds that could be fired in a given time frame (say 3 in 5 minutes) and that would totally disable the firearm if anyone attempted to remove or disable it in any way?
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Mnemosyne: I don’t buy that interpretation. I think it’s, at the core, a lot nastier. They want the right to murder anyone they like on a whim.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@lucslawyer: Not really. Guns are mechanically very, very simple devices. A workaround for the electronics would be trivial, even for an absolute moron.
Betty Cracker
@lucslawyer: Don’t know about a chip to limit rounds fired, but a developer did try to market “smart guns” that could only be fired by the owner, and the gun lobby ran them out of town — even though it would open a new market.
Mnemosyne
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Close — they like to know they have the power to kill anyone at any time. It gives them a secret thrill up their leg and is pretty much the classic Freudian definition of a sexual fetish. The gun is the better, harder peni$ they’ll never really have.
Again, a guy just killed 49 people because his actual peni$ wouldn’t obey him and kept being attracted to men. So he had to use his substitute dick to kill them all in a massive spray.
Men like ARBG flip out when you try to take their guns because in their minds, you’re trying to cut their dicks off. You’re taking away the only thing that makes them feel like a man. You’re castrating them and taking away their power.
lucslawyer
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Would it be possible to develop firearms/ammunition that would work only on an electronic basis rather than mechanical?
Mnemosyne
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
And last thing: the “open carry” guys would really rather walk around with their pants off to make everyone look at what they’ve got, but since that’s illegal and not socially acceptable, they’re going to walk around with their long, hard guns and make everyone look at those instead.
Amaranthine RBG
@lucslawyer: there have been some attempts to sell guns that would only operate when someone was wearing a wristband or ring within a certain proximity of the gun.
Many gun owners resisted this idea because they believe that firearms, particularly semi automatic pistols can already malfunction in a number of ways and they imposed introducing additional complexity to them.
Amaranthine RBG
@Betty Cracker: this issue is too important to allow the extremists on both sides to continue to flog their inane opinions and continue to ensure that no progress is made
lucslawyer
@Amaranthine RBG:
In your opinion, is there a number of deaths by firearms in the U.S. the reaching of which would cause the nra’s leadership to be willing to sit down with the leaders of the gun control movement for serious discussions of the problem? A solid number, not the pablum of “too many already”.
Betty Cracker
@Amaranthine RBG: Broderian bullshit. There’s exactly one side preventing enactment of commonsense gun safety measures that have the support of the vast majority of the American people — Republicans and Democrats, gun owners and non-gun owners alike. It’s the NRA side.
Matt McIrvin
Apparently the gun the guy used was not an AR-15, as reported in the media, but some slightly different semiautomatic rifle, which is even worse than calling a magazine a clip and proves once again that only gun obsessives are fit to talk or legislate about guns and the rest of us should defer to our betters.
nutella
I am surprised that no one has remarked on one obvious (to me) point:
People who voted for Bernie Sanders: You chose to vote against gun control. Bernie has consistently opposed every effort at gun control throughout his career and will undoubtedly continue to do so in the future.
Do you feel that Bernie’s economic positions are so important that your vote for an anti-gun-control candidate was reasonable?
I know there’s no easy answer to this question but every Bernie supporter should be thinking about it now.
Adam L Silverman
@Stan: According to the reports its actually the MCX:
http://www.sigevolution.com/sigmcx
Which is itself an AR pattern rifle.
debbie
Screw La Pierre. Introduce a gun control bill, force a vote, then take it to the Supreme Court when if fails. If Roe v. Wade can be re-litigated countless times, then the intent of the Second Amendment can be re-argued. Either all laws are set in stone, or none are.