For non-wingnut Floridians, one irritant at the edge of the shock and grief we feel after the massacre in Orlando has been watching our state’s wingnut politicians try to reconcile their past efforts in service of a similar brand of the bigotry that animated the killer with newfound public concern and sympathy for the slain. The pols have approached it in a variety of ways.
Florida’s incomparably vile governor, Rick Scott, who has spent millions of taxpayer dollars promoting and maintaining anti-gay laws, stole a page from Ronald Reagan’s “How to Ignore the AIDS Crisis” handbook, refusing to even utter the words “gay” or “LGBT” during his many post-massacre statements and TV appearances, as if the victims were targeted at random.
Slimy opportunist Marco Rubio, who opposes marriage equality, LGBT employment protections and adoption rights for gay couples, acknowledged that gay people were targeted in the attack but crassly used the massacre as an excuse to reconsider his decision not to run for reelection to his senate seat, now that he’s washed out of the presidential race and will soon have to find a real job.
And then there’s Florida AG Pam Bondi, who campaigned on a full-metal wingnut platform, vigorously opposed marriage equality with taxpayer dollars and is now trying to paint herself as a champion for LGBT Floridians. Anderson Cooper was having none of her bullshit:
Way to grill some Pammycakes, Mr. Cooper!
Next up, Samantha Bee expresses what many of us have been thinking in the wake of the latest mass shooting, including President Obama and Hillary Clinton, i.e., that it’s pretty fucking stupid to allow stores to sell a weapon capable of mowing down a room full of people in under a minute as if it were a common garden implement:
In the clip above, Bee refers to the assault weapon used in Orlando as an AR-15 because that’s what the early reports said the killer used. We now know it was actually a Sig Sauer MCX. The Washington Post issued a correction on that, no doubt in part to address the rage of the gun-humper community, which becomes weirdly disturbed when someone misidentifies a weapon…almost as if a personal body part were being slighted in some way.
I’m going to outsource my response to that annoying phenomenon to valued commenter Mnemosyne:
I don’t give a shit what the exact model of the gun was. I really don’t. IMO, getting into gun nerd discussions about the exact make and model is a deliberate attempt to get off into the weeds and pull the discussion away from the fact that 49 people were murdered. Forty. Nine. The exact type of gun used doesn’t fucking matter.
I don’t need to speak the gun hobbyists’ language. If they’re more concerned with the exact make and model than the fact that 49 people are dead, then we need to be discussing their lack of fucking empathy and human feeling, not gun models.
If hobbyists want to have that discussion among themselves, fine, but the whole the news didn’t have the exact make and model right! is misdirection, and we all know it.
Amen, sister. Amen.
And finally, a comment from Served, which was posted in that same thread linked above:
Just a note to everyone to reach out to any LGBT friends and family and tell them you love them. They need it more than ever.
Amen, Served. Amen.
schrodinger's cat
The largest seller of guns is apparently Walmart. Which came as a shock to me because I have never seen guns in my local Walmarts, could it be because I have only lived in blue states?
C. Isaac
Bondi: “it’s constitutional to put that in the constitution!”
…. what?
I think she needs to stop with the bleach blonde hair dye. It’s seeping into the skull and reaching grey matter, because her position is completely incoherent without the ability to just flat out admit ‘well, Anderson, I hate gay people like you , and want you to be miserable, but I hate Muslims more, so have to act like I like you people’.
@schrodinger’s cat:
Guns in Wal-Mart is a very southern thing. Very common down here, especially in the rural areas where the population centers may not be large enough to support a sporting goods or gun store on its own.
schrodinger's cat
I see a Foxbot future for Blondie.
gogol's wife
I agree totally with you and Mnemosyne about this misdirection that always happens, like “You obviously do not understand how a semi-automatic operates as opposed to a full automatic, blahblahblah.” It makes me crazy!
BGinCHI
Let’s hope 2018 is the year lots of GOP state pols and Governors get swept from office.
I hope HRC has a plan for strengthening the party at the state level.
Marmot
You win this time, Florida! But only because Dan Patrick is TX lieutenant-governor.
Dadadadadadada
Reposted from earlier:
An idea for anyone (clearly not me) who has competence/connections in this area: let’s start treating gun stores they way repukes have treated abortion clinics. Constant protests out front the whole time the place is open, etc.
There are ways to improve on the approach, though. Instead of merely showing up and being offensive, let’s apply some real data. For example, anytime there’s a gun killing, find out where and when the gun was bought, and picket that place with signs that say stuff like “On [murder date], Person X killed Person Y with a gun he bought here.” Keep a running tally of how many people have been killed by products from a particular store, as in “Customers at this store have killed XY people this year,” and so on.
Thanks to our failed political system, it may be impossible to sic the law on the gun biz, so we have to resort to market forces. Make it unacceptable for anyone to be seen entering a gun store. Put them out of business.
ETA: the protests would do well to highlight gun suicides, which are more common than gun homicides.
Further ETA: several commenters pointed out that the left is not as motivated against guns as the right was against abortion. That was certainly true in the 90s, and possibly up until a week ago, but perhaps things have changed by now. We’ve got an epic left-leaning landslide on tap, and maybe that will make the necessary difference in motivation and confidence among gun-control supporters.
Others pointed out the likelihood of a violent backlash, which can’t be ruled out. It’s a risk, of course, but possibly a manageable one. Violent backlashes sometimes only alienate normal people; if some nutburger shoots a bunch of peaceful protestors (on video, because of course the protests will be constantly filmed) because they’re saying that human lives matter than his personal hobby, that might push some undecided people into the liberal camp and highlight the need to further limit nutburgers’ access to deadly weapons.
JPL
This is from Trump
He’s attending a fundraiser in Atlanta now. I wonder if he mentioned this to the crowd attending.
Chris
@gogol’s wife:
Yeah; there’s something deeply fucked up about the gun-humpers, in the aftermath of every mass shooting, instantly turning everything into a gun-nerd convention discussing the exact make and model of the things that might have just been used to mass-murder a bunch of people.
Big Ole Hound
If the all these elected politicians in Florida are so vile, what does this say about the voters? They average Floridian must have the mind of a mosquito.
PGE
Re: the title, for those of you who haven’t been on threads where this has happened…if you make the “mistake” of calling a magazine a clip, the gun nuts will immediately derail the thread, saying that proves you don’t know anything about guns. What’s hilarious is that they are well aware that the terms are frequently used interchangeably, even among gun users. But, with that crowd, derailing a thread is priority #1, no matter how idiotic it makes them sound.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
Yeah, all this shit about what kind of gun it was, and all the “Well, it wasn’t an automatic, it was a semi-automatic. You don’t even care enough about this to get things like that right, because all you want to do is ban all the guns! And you don’t respect us, or our ‘culture’, either! Why should we listen to you?” shit is nothing more than fighting about how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Who the fuck cares? That isn’t the point, and they know it isn’t the point, but they also know that as long as we’re talking about whether the press got the gun’s name right, and whether we gun control fascists understand how a “magazine” is not a “clip”, then they’re winning, or, at least, they aren’t losing.
And they really don’t give a shit about the dead people. All they care about is that nobody does anything to make buying or owning or shooting guns even marginally harder. And the fact that the guy who killed all those people was a Muslim is giving them happy, happy hard ons, too, since that means they can try to shift the whole thing away from guns and onto scaaaaaary-ass Moozulmz.
schrodinger's cat
@PGE: Isn’t it enough to know that they are killing machines and have no other purpose than that?
PGE
@schrodinger’s cat: You’d think so. But obviously not.
NotMax
Scott also decreed the words “climate change” not be uttered by those on the state payroll. IIRC.
And was re-elected after Floridians had ample opportunity to witness him in office.
Betty Cracker
@JPL: If that odious oaf gets the NRA to back down on that point (doubtful, IMO), something good will have come out of his revolting candidacy. Not enough to balance the incalculable harm, of course, but something. It’s an ill wind, etc.
RSR
Cole covered this–I think before the whole “wrong model!” BS started spewing–a few days ago:
Cole on twitter:
Betty Cracker
@NotMax: In our defense, Scott received less than 50% of the vote in both elections (and Lil’ Marco won his senate seat with less than 50%), and the Democratic Party of Florida is famously incompetent and moribund.
Nominus
@C. Isaac: also noting the fact that Walmart probably ran every competitor in town out of business, so they’re the only ones left to sell guns
germy
@JPL: It almost seems like he sees the NRA as a gov. entity, like the EPA, FDA, or ATF.
Jack the Second
@Chris: Do they ever slip up and start talking in public about what an idiot the shooter was for picking such a stupid gun as an XYZ, and how if they were going to shoot up a place… ?
Chris
@Big Ole Hound:
Basically my approach to the entire slow spiral into far right politics and, ultimately, fascism that the GOP’s been on for the last fifty years. Heinous as he is, even Donald Trump isn’t really the problem. The problem is the massive numbers of voters who think his ideas are great. Without them, he’s just a crazy guy on a street corner.
(And if he loses in 2016, they will still be there).
Chris
@RSR:
Well, I don’t insist on it, but neither would I really care if it happened.
germy
@PGE: I’ve observed that phenomenon on their blogs. They also divide all commenters into “shooters” (the good guys) and “people who don’t shoot” (fussy liberals trying to steal their freedumb)
JPL
@germy: Since there was no mention of when the meeting will occur, I assume that his handlers will say, after the election.
Gin & Tonic
@Betty Cracker: He will roll over just as quick as one of your pups asking for a belly rub.
Dadadadadadada
@Chris: This is why we need to run up the score this year and keep the fire going into 2018. If Trump loses by 20 points and the GOP suffers further Congressional losses 2 years later, a whole lot of the bought-and-paid-for shills for whatever cause you care to name (xenophobia, gun-humper rights, LGBTQ hate, etc.) will change their tune, and all of a sudden politics will become tolerable again. After a few years of that, no one will even comprehend how the backwardness and awfulness of the 1980s-2010s period was allowed to happen.
germy
@Chris:
I wonder who they’ll support next?
PGE
@schrodinger’s cat: To be charitable, I suppose it’s possible for some of them it’s like confusing Star Wars with Star Trek when talking to a sci-fi nerd. But I’ve never seen a case when it wasn’t clear that the motivation was steering away from the real issue instead of setting you straight on minute details of their hobby.
schrodinger's cat
I have been in a gun store once in my life just out of curiosity, It also had tons of Confederate memorabilia. I wanted to bolt ASAP, which I did. This was in one of the tourist trap towns in Maine.
ETA: This is the heart of Yankee country, not a popular place for Confederate memorabilia. So these gun stores cater to a specific clientele.
Chris
@Dadadadadadada:
Agreed.
@germy:
Who knows? As 2010 demonstrated, they can be plenty dangerous without a Fuhrer to rally around, just by acting at the state and local level.
Punchy
@Betty Cracker: The NRA will never back down on this, IMO, because it allows a gov’t-controlled database to “control” who gets to buy weapons. In their fucked up worldview, this would allow a crooked gov’t to abuse the list, thus altering access to weapons purchases without judicial oversight.
I will admit that there is some truth (IMO) to this mindset that a secret list (terror watch or otherwise), compiled by the feds with complete secrecy and purposeful lack of transparency, to be the basis of denying someone a Constitutional right (let’s admit that yes, the 2nd Amendy does exist) is a very slippery slope to head down….Proggs would be going nuts if this list became the basis to prevent someone from voting, or living within 1000ft of a school, or driving a box truck….
NotMax
@Dadadadadadada
Sorry. On paper, maybe looks initially satisfying but it’s a terrible idea.
Jamey
@schrodinger’s cat: Yeh, probably. Much as I hate to admit it, she parried AC360’s thrusts pretty well. Not in a way that evinced empathy or even human feeling, but in how she framed it as a process decision.
He scored a lot of emotional points with us true believers, but dammit all, why did Florida have to go and appoint (elect?) an AG with an above-room-temp IQ?
schrodinger's cat
I must have done something to offend the great God of Balloon Juice, Tunch, for I am stuck again in moderation after editing a comment. HALP!
Highway Rob
Haven’t really thought it through, but how’s this for a 25-words-or-less applause line: “The only death panel in this country is the board of directors of the NRA.”
Cacti
@schrodinger’s cat:
Walmart carries guns here in WA.
I think it has more to do with with whether you live in a place where hunting is a popular activity. Lots of elk hunters in the PNW.
Betty Cracker
@Punchy: True. I can see the necessity for the lists, but IMO, it should be subject to judicial oversight.
@Highway Rob: Love it!
dnfree
@Dadadadadadada: I for one am not demonstrating in the vicinity of any gun stores. I’m not putting any gun control bumper stickers on my car, either. In my somewhat rural area, the people who are most adamant about their right to carry also just happen to be hot-headed people with anger management issues. The vast majority of gun owners may be perfectly reasonable human beings, but it only takes one who isn’t.
Some gun rights supporters claim that a lot of guns makes for a more “civil” or “polite” society. Actually it makes for a society where people are afraid to confront the people who have guns.
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
Weak tea.
Also too, Rubio hasn’t had to (and FSM willing still shan’t) face statewide re-election to the Senate.
Betty Cracker
@NotMax: Maybe. But the point is, we’re not all assholes — not even most of us.
El Caganer
@Marmot: And no love for Lead-Dead Rick Snyder?
sherparick
@Marmot: The competition is so fierce. Sam Brownback, Paul LePage, Scott Walker, Greg Abbott, are all constant candidates for worst person in the world.
Meanwhile, Trump has simply become to much even for Kevin Drum http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/06/donald-trump-and-his-fantasies-third-reich
gene108
@Dadadadadadada:
When Republicans lose they go hard right. They did this after 2008. They did this after 1992.
Their failure is due to not being conservative enough. There will be no moderation, until Repiblicans lose and lose for at least a generation.
Uncle Cosmo
And what, prey tell, is the functional difference between an AR-15 and a Sig Sauer MCX? Roughly the difference between a weapon issued by the US Army to regular soldiers & one issued to special operations forces. If anything it’s even more insane that you can walk into a gun store with a wad of cash & walk out cradling a Sig.
Chris
@PGE:
Yeah, and look, I get it. I’m not a gun nerd, but I’m a military aircraft nerd (mostly fighter planes), which is a whole other level of death and destruction. And I’m liable to get into nerdy discussions about these things, which probably disgust at least a few people who remember what these fighters and attackers are used for in real life. And I can see myself being offended by a mistake like aircraft misidentification that nobody else really cares about. (Hi, Hollywood producers, with your Top Gun and your Iron Eagle!)
But… put it like this: I had a friend in undergrad whose home and entire neighborhood had been leveled by military aircraft during the Gulf War (kick-starting the process that ultimately landed her in America). While I don’t apologize for being a military aircraft nerd, I would’ve been unlikely to bring up the topic around her – for obvious reasons. And if the subject had come up and if, say, she’d used a term like “F-15,” and I happened to know that F-15s didn’t carry those kinds of weapons or weren’t tasked to that kind of mission or weren’t active in that part of Iraq during the Gulf War or whatever – my knee jerk reaction wouldn’t be to bounce up and squeal “ooo! But F-15s don’t do that! [long and comprehensive summary of everything I know about U.S. Air Force procedure and history when it comes to dropping bombs on cities as they relate to the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle]! So it must’ve been an F-16! You ignorant stupidhead!” You know who does that? Sociopaths do that. People incapable of empathy with other human beings do that. Assholes do that.
And that’s what we’re seeing, over and over and over, every time a mass shooting goes on and the airwaves and cyberspace become instantly saturated with people explaining in excruciating detail what kind of weapons were used to kill all these people and why those weapons are awesome.
scav
As the very imperfect lists exist but are not applied to the purchase of firearms, the official position would seem to be we really don’t so much mind potential terrorists shooting masses of people, we just absolutely draw the line at them shooting people out of driving range. They can have it as easy and automatic or semi-automatic as they like for the actual mowing down of citizens, but they will have to put in the effort of getting there by ground transport.
gogol's wife
@schrodinger’s cat:
Rural areas in New England are full of Confederate memorabilia, unfortunately. At least when we see it up here we don’t have to worry about it being about “cultural heritage.”
1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet)
@C. Isaac: In many cases, the local sporting goods store was forced out of business by Walmart, which has put a lot of small specialty businesses out of business in smaller communities around the country. In a city, the sporting goods store or the sewing store or hardware store isn’t bothered by the competition, but that’s not the case in the typical county-seat town in Iowa or Alabama or Kentucky.
Then Walmart’s executives realize they aren’t making enough from their sewing section, and cut it back, or they determine it’s too expensive to carry a wide range of hardware items, and only stock those in the most demand.
MomSense
@dnfree:
Yup, that’s exactly my experience. That is why I think what the gun humpers do is terrorism. They use their threat of harassment and violence to keep people too scared to speak out politically. It is completely bogus that we can’t get help from law enforcement for the kinds of harassment that gun violence prevention advocates receive. My suspicion is that too many in law enforcement are sympathetic to them.
SiubhanDuinne
There’s a RW gunhumper meme that shows up on FB after every high-profile mass shooting: the mugshot of Timothy McVeigh with the caption:
Somebody sent it to my friend, who shared it with her own brilliant comment:
Such a fine response to a tired old talking point.
sigaba
@Big Ole Hound: My mother has been active in the Democratic Party in Florida and it really suffers from a lack of leadership and good candidates.
O. Felix Culpa
@Chris:
This. Thank you.
germy
I don’t know if one of the front-pagers already linked to this, but I just read it this morning:
https://storify.com/case_face/a-trump-rally-in-greensboro-anger-in-here-is-palpa
Aimai
@Highway Rob: death panel= nra is shorter. But I had a bumpersticker on my car attacking bush in 2004. It said “four more wars” instead of four more years. My so called christian sister in law/republican asked me, puzzled, what was wrong with that as a slogan. The people who gave us the colt peacemaker can turn anything upside down.
Eric U.
all of the gun stores around here (centra PA) are out in the country. Walmart/Cabelas/Bass Pro might be having an effect on their business though. Last time I was in a gun store, the guns were all low-end models. Maybe that’s just a reflection of the rural population’s income. I have no idea what they are doing for a living nowadays, not too many successful farmers around here.
Chris
@dnfree:
Which, I suppose, is what that means to them.
James E Powell
@NotMax:
Which is the critical fact that the press/media are never going to explore. They will certainly allow some discussion of the NRA and the politicians they own or lease. But none will go to the heart of the matter: the voters who not only approve of the guns = American masculinity and personal freedom bullshit, they insist upon it.
Remember the Colorado recall elections for two state senators? The story was “that’s how strong the NRA is” when it should have been “that’s how low-minded voters are.”
TriassicSands
But he won’t have to find a real job, because the wingnut welfare system will do that for him. The question will be which “think” tank takes him on and pays him six to seven figures for doing essentially nothing.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Interesting. I failed to note, and I probably should have, that the McVeigh bomber meme referenced in my comment at #50 originated with the Connecticut Citizens’ Defense League. (Their logo is the outline of a gun against the map of Connecticut with the slogan “Carry On!”)
germy
@TriassicSands: They can give him a book contract, hire a ghost writer, and then buy up truckloads of it to distribute free at meetings (buying up truckloads also makes it a certified “bestseller”)
schrodinger's cat
@gogol’s wife: I lived in Maine for almost 10 years, frequented mid coast and down east Maine a lot (practically every weekend) and have been to many a touristy store but apart from the gun store I never saw Confederate stuff for sale.
Bob2
@germy: or more accurately, shooters and targets.
catclub
@Punchy:
Yep. The first result is that Ted Kennedy, who was on the no fly list, cannot buy a gun. Plus, it was impossible to get yourself removed from that list, no matter how well you prove that you were on there mistakenly.
Betty Cracker
@germy: That’s absolutely chilling. I get tired of saying “this is the most important election of our lives,” but damn it, it’s true. Trump must be defeated — humiliated at the polls. But even then, everything won’t be okay. The fact that he got this far is a horror that must be addressed somehow. I don’t know how. But it’s a bone-deep sickness.
schrodinger's cat
@schrodinger’s cat: Every weekend in summer (June-August).
catclub
@Eric U.:
There was something I read about a lawyer having to take guns as payment since that was the only valuable thing his clients owned.
And guns are expensive.
gogol's wife
I just watched the Bee clip. Awesome. She’s surpassed Stewart and then some.
TriassicSands
Like Donald Trump — against gay marriage, but the “best friend” that the LGBT community could ever hope to have. Rest assured, if there is ever a tragedy in the LGBT community parasites like Trump will be front and center to use the tragedy for their own benefit.
Trump is a firm believer that marriage (and multiple divorces and unlimited adultery) are properly between a man and a woman.
Today when I think about “peak wingnut” I have to laugh that anyone ever thought that pre-2015 the Republicans had come anywhere near that iconic limit. Donald Trump proves every day that there is simply no such thing as peak wingnut. No matter how outrageous, disgusting, vile, nauseating, or sickening his latest statement is, it is just a prelude to what he’ll spew the next day or the day after that.
PGE
@Chris: Excellent analogy.
GregB
There is a particularly strange NRA/PC code that somehow one can’t talk about guns or gun safety unless one can identify, clean and take apart and rebuild a gun in less than 10 minutes.
You can’t talk about gun regulation, you don’t know the difference between a magazine and a stock!
gogol's wife
@schrodinger’s cat:
All I know is, here in Connecticut, that pickup truck that just passed you in a no-passing zone because you were going the speed limit is more likely than not to have a Confederate flag in its back window.
schrodinger's cat
People sporting Confederate stuff in New England is a tell, they cannot hide behind the fig leaf of tradition and heritage. Its not a mainstream thing to do. At least it wasn’t when I lived in Maine but that was before LePage took office.
Stan
@gogol’s wife: *Usually* it is a distraction, but not always, i gotta differ here.
if you seriously intend to regulate guns better, you need to know a thing or two about guns. Sorry but that’s the way it is. If you wanted to intelligently regulate fracking you’d consult at least a few engineers, right?
My experience has been that people who want gun regulation tend to know next to nothing about guns. Tough to formulate an intelligent policy that way, unless you simply want to ban all guns or something like that.
Among my politically-active friends (and we’re all pretty far to the left, in a very blue state) I’m apparently the only one who served in the military or knows the first thing about weapons. Among my gun-loving friends, every single one is either apolitical or quite republican.
The left does need a few people who know something about weapons if we’re going to regulate them.
TriassicSands
@germy:
Yes, a classic wingnut welfare wagon plan. All Rubio will have to do is cash checks and pretend to have a minimal knowledge of the content of the book he didn’t write and no one bought. But he’ll “land on his feet” after a wasted term as a pre-presidential candidate, sometimes loosely called a Republican US Senator.
El Caganer
@Uncle Cosmo: And on Monday, it took this journalist exactly seven minutes to buy an AR15/Sig Sauer/WTFever here in Philly. One day after the massacre in Orlando.
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/helen_ubinas/20160614_Ubinas__I_bought_an_AR-15_semi-automatic_rifle_in_Philly_in_7_minutes.html
Chip Daniels
We can’t let the gun nuts dictate the terms of debate.
There exist, frankly, a class of people who need to have their guns taken away.
There does not exist a natural right to guns-on-demand.
We need to hammer these points relentlessly, to build a public consensus that guns should be a privilege not a right.
schrodinger's cat
@gogol’s wife: Don’t know much about Connecticut, have driven through it a couple of times. I have some friends who live in Connecticut, not that far from NYC their town had 3 gun stores which I found odd.
trollhattan
@SiubhanDuinne:
They sound nice.
Of obvious necessity, LBGT communities have been organized and effective in positive change going back to the AIDS crisis and further. Perhaps a marriage (heh) of the movement with gun control advocates can pull the gun fight into viability.
James E Powell
@TriassicSands:
When does Rubio have to announce that
he has changed his mindGod has called him back to the senate?Betty Cracker
@Stan: The people in charge of creating the regulations should absolutely be experts / consult experts. But the average gun regulation advocate shouldn’t be required to demonstrate expertise on guns any more than people who advocate for climate change action should have to have science degrees, etc. It’s a distraction.
Mike in NC
After all these years, Nixon’s Southern Strategy continues to be the gift that keeps on giving (as in, electing vile wingnut politicians).
Stan
@GregB: I’m sorry but, no, that’s not strange at all.
Would you discuss car safety regulation if you didn’t know the difference between brakes and windshields? Maybe you’d seek out a car engineer to help you out before writing regs or advocating for particular laws?
If we want to get serious about gun regulation (I do) then we need to invest the time to either learn about the weapons or get some help. I’ve done that….I’ve spent a lot of time helping people understand what all that gun terminology crap means (NOT being snarky here) so they can have a chance of coming up with laws that will actually accomplish something useful and have a chance of passing.
Chris
@Stan:
Yes, but when the conversation about fracking comes up, nobody expects everyone on the Internet on both sides of the argument to be able to identify on sight each and every tool and machine involved in the fracking process and know at least as much about its operation as the people who use the machines for a living. It’s enough to know the basics of what fracking is and what its results are, and understood that you assume the politicians will consult people who are experts when it comes to fracking to ensure that the laws they pass are as appropriate as possible.
TriassicSands
@James E Powell:
Back to the Senate? I doubt it. After his grueling campaign, which required him to memorize two or three talking points to be repeated ad nauseam, he is mentally exhausted. He’s still a relatively young man, so there is some hope that he’ll be able to recover, but it will take time and lots of pampering and TLC.
Stan
@Betty Cracker: Maybe not the average person, but the average legislator or anti-gun advocate needs to understand some basics of how they work. Like I said, I’ve invested time teaching people and will happily continue to do so.
gene108
@schrodinger’s cat:
I was surprised, when I moved from NC to NJ that Wal-Marts here did not sell guns and were not open 24/7.
El Caganer
@TriassicSands: Perhaps a few years as a fellow at the Wingnut Institute for Policy Derp.
PGE
@Betty Cracker: I think that building the political will for sensible regulations will be done friend to friend, and that it’s easier to make an impact if you have at least some basic knowledge. For example, I remember explaining to a friend of mine why a person would need more than one rifle: say, a .22 for squirrel and a 30-30 for deer hunting in a forest, and a .270 for a cornfield. Better that those conversations start with some basic understanding.
ETA: Better in the sense that they’ll be more likely to have an impact instead of two people talking past each other.
NCSteve
Gunhumpers don’t obsess about the technical weeds of make, model, calibre, exact type of ammunition used, and whether it’s called a “clip” or a “magazine” to derail conversations. It’s an in-circle ritual that they use to decertify and invalidate the opinions of people who aren’t gunhumpers. In their world, if you don’t understand the critically important distinction between a .223 Remington and 5.76 NATO round, you’re not entitled to an opinion on whether people ought to be able to just walk into a goddamn store and buy a gun capable of firing either of them like it was a power drill or a tennis racket.
It’s gunhumper for “LA-LA-LA! NOT LISTENING!!!! LA-LA-LA CAN’T-HEAR-YOU!”
Of course if they can’t find fault in your opinion on that basis, they fall back on swimming pools, hammers, cars, and the Constatootshun!
schrodinger's cat
@gene108: WalMarts and most stores for that matter close by 10 pm.
bluehill
So tired of these belated apologies. It may relieve some of his guilt, but the damage has been done and it’s not like people haven’t warned him about the risks of demonizing a particular group of people. I hope he follows up with actions to undo the damage done or prevent future harm. It was/is LGBT, but the hate is moving to Muslims now.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/spencer-cox-lgbt-orlando-vigil
MomSense
@schrodinger’s cat:
People leave NY and drive to CT where the laws are more lax to buy their penile enhancements.
Same thing happens at Kittery Trading Post.
schrodinger's cat
@MomSense: I have stocked up on booze, I cannot lie both when coming back from NH and from Canada. Canadian store at the border had great wines at great prices
NotMax
Lt. Gov. of a red state moves in a positive direction.
Granted some of his statements are tempered and sidestep or ignore important and relevant issues and parties, but he’s opened a door and incontrovertibly stepped through with both feet.
Stan
@Chris: I am not talking about arguments on the internet.
I am talking about working with legislators and advocates, and interested citizens, face-to-face, at meetings, at demonstrations etc. I could not care less who ‘wins’ an argument on the internet. I care that people who want realistic, useful gun laws that will actually protect people know enough to advocate intelligently and productively.
A very young girl got killed by stray gunfire in my home city a few years ago. She was killed by a neighborhood gun. Some other kid decided he would fire that gun. No reason really. Maybe he was curious. Lots of folks in that neighborhood thought having that gun laying around was a good idea.
I really, really, really do not want that to ever happen again to anyone.
I know lots of people who own illegal guns. I wish they didn’t, but, they do. many of them are very lefty dems. Some of them live in dangeorous neighborhoods, or used to, so they feel safer with a gun. They’re wrong but….well, that’s what they think.
I also know lots of people who are basically apolitical who own guns for hunting and sport. These folks aren’t nuts; they aren’t going to intentionally hurt anyone, ever. And they will absolutely get very active politically if someone tries to take their guns away.
So if we’re going to formulate and advocate for laws that will stop the mayhem and accidental deaths while leaving ordinary people alone if they like to hunt…..we need a few folks on the left who know the difference between a magazine and a butthole. It is not *always* a distraction.
maya
@NCSteve:
Gnomenclature is for gnomes
MomSense
@schrodinger’s cat:
Definitely. I stock up at NH liquor store.
dww44
@PGENormally I avoid politics on Facebook, but last evening my niece posted a bit from Occupy Democrats that concisely said “if we identified the link between box cutters and 9/11 why can’t we make the connection between assault weapons and mass shootings?”. I happened to comment in agreement and mention that it wasn’t that the connection between the two couldn’t be made, it was that it was willfuly not being made. So, then this anonymous person,weighs in and says “What do Democrats think assault weapons are?” Then he and I engaged in a back and forth and at some point he posts this:
My response, ” Fine, let’s outlaw high magazine hunting rifles too while we are outlawing the non assault/automatic weapons like the one Mateen used.”
Until that conversation last evening I had not encountered the right’s effort to reduce the conversation about the Orlando shooting to a technical one about guns. Do they have a place to go that tells them to do this? Actually they may have gone too far this time with the obfuscating and deflecting, but November will tell the tale.
Stan
@PGE: Completely agree
gene108
@Stan:
Hold gun at handle. Point in direction you want bullet to go. Squeeze trigger. See how far off the target you are. Adjust aim. Repeat prior steps.
No offense, but guns aren’t super complicated. They do not require a life time of training and tutelage to become proficient with.
That’s sort of the issue with the ready availability of guns.
They are relatively easy to use and can do a lot of damage, very quickly, in the wrong hands.
I think, if you want to get some gun-owners bordering on gun-nuts to listen to you, it ,may help to be knowledgeable, but I don’t think that group is too big. Either you don’t own guns and really don’t care, if you can’t own them anymore, you own guns and see a need for better regulations already or you are a gun-nut, who thinks getting rid of conceal-carry and now-open carry, like we were in the 1980’s, will lead to outright gun confiscation.
I don’t think too many people are undecided on the issue. The intensity of following through on the decision is different.
schrodinger's cat
We have a new concern troll! Add spice to the comment section.
LAO
I can’t be the first person to say this here, but one of the reasons I think the gun nuts oppose and all reasonable regulation of firearms — is the right wing’s successful strategy of chipping away at legal rulings and laws they don’t support. Stay with me, the RW has been very, very successful at stripping down and chipping away at abortion rights. Abortion may be legal — but they have placed so many restrictions and meaningless requirements on providers, as to render the right to abortion meaningless in many states. I think that they expect that the Left would be as tenacious regarding gun rights and the second amendment, as they have been with respect to the right to privacy. So, they will continue to fight tooth and nail against any reasonable regulation, no matter how popular or level headed, to prevent us from behaving as they do.
I say, lets adopt the RW rule book!
Cara
“gun-humper community”-totally stealing this!!!
Rick Taylor
Rachel Madow did a chilling report on how the Sig Sauer was marketed, and how it was well designed for smuggling into a nightclub and shooting many people.
https://mediamatters.org/video/2016/06/14/rachel-maddow-shames-gun-maker-sig-sauer-creating-easy-use-rifle-used-mass-murder/210956
Chris
@Stan:
You said “people who want gun regulation,” which is fairly vague, in a thread where people have been talking about the consistent, all-across the board derailing of conversation onto this topic. If you’re talking specifically about gun activists and politicians, then sure, I suppose.
D58826
Just saw this on Twitter. On Monday a ‘sovereign citizen’ got into a dispute with three neighbors over some fire wood. His solution – get his AR15 to enforce his sovereignty and then murder the neighbors.
Obviously not a lot of news coverage after all it was ONLY three dead. That doesn’t even trip the definition of a mass murder. The Inuit are supposed to have dozens of words to describe snow. In the US we have dozens of levels of murder so they can be categorized properly. Of course for the victim and his/her family there really is on one word – dead..
The Thin Black Duke
For a start, let’s stop selling fucking military weapons to crazy people. Is that goddamned simple enough? You don’t need to be Einstein to figure that out.
TriassicSands
@El Caganer:
That might work — as long as he has several aides to do the heavy lifting for him.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@gogol’s wife: Indeed.
Anyone who listens to audio of the massacre won’t be convinced that bullets fired that rapidly is all that much different from an automatic weapon. It’s semantics when it comes down to how many slugs of lead are leaving the barrel. :-( It took about 15 seconds to reload a musket in the 1770s. Imagine how different the Orlando massacre would have been if there were 15 seconds between shots…
It is misdirection.
It doesn’t matter what make of gun it was, or how many grams of lead were in the bullets, or how many grains of powder were in the cartridge, or what color it was, or any of those other details. What matters is a weapon of war was used to massacre people in a nightclub in America, and that gun was legal to purchase and carry around into a public space.
We can’t get distracted, and we have to not let them avoid confronting the bottom-line truth.
The Pulse Victims Fund is approaching $4.3M after about 3 days. I hope that number continues to increase, to demonstrate (in a small way) that the country knows that this issue is important and that it must be addressed.
Cheers,
Scott.
Stan
@dww44: This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.
The conversation can stop because someone deliberately distracts it, which is what I suspect was going on there.
BUT it can also stop at the point when someone sincerely needs to know what exactly they mean about which guns should be regulated. (Again, if you think all guns should be outlawed none of this matters. And I’m not against outlawing all guns, but, I also think it is a completely unrealistic policy goal).
We on the left did not help ourselves a few years back when laws defining assault weapons did a terrible job defining those weapons. WE did a terrible job i New York with the SAFE Act that made it illegal to load a magazine with more than 7 rounds. The magazines themselves can be any capacity. That was just idiotic, meaningless feel-good law.
Let’s do it right.
Bitter Scribe
Rubio: “When it visits your home states, when it impacts a community you know well, it really gives you pause, to think a little bit about your service to your country and where you can be most useful to your country.”
Yes, nothing will be more useful in preventing future massacres of gay people than retaining politicians who appeal to homophobia.
John D
@bluehill:
Given that the covering set is not “timely apology”/”belated apology”, but “belated apology”/”no apology”, it’s far better for people to come around to the self awareness that what they did was wrong. We can’t go back in time and undo our mistakes, but we can try to help others from making the same ones.
TriassicSands
I don’t hunt, but how many legitimate hunting rifles are semi-automatic? Who knows, today, maybe wingnuts think they need semi-automatic rifles to hunt rabbits. However, traditionally, hunting rifles have not been semi-automatic. Of course, today’s “sportsmen” need something to do with their home defense arsenal between standing their ground and shooting up night clubs.
It’s about how fast you can empty a magazine and then reload. With a semi-automatic rifle (or hand gun) all you have to do is pull the trigger; the instant you’ve done that the weapon is ready for you to do it again. As a result, it is possible to empty a magazine in seconds.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet):
My closest WalMart has a sporting goods department in direct competition with a large and well stocked firearm seller/indoor range 6 miles away, as well as a large and well-stocked Cabelas about 10 miles away. In the gun department, they don’t really carry much except a few shotguns, cheap rifles, cheap scopes and some air guns, along with exceptionally common shotgun and rifle ammo. It just depends on what they’re up against on a local level, and there’s no way that they can afford the sort of well-trained, knowledgable sales associates that the others have.
If you go into a good firearms retailer, you really do see a staffing difference, and 9 times out of 10, you’ll walk out with a purchase in hand after the interaction. I was trying to help a long time gun guy acquire a dive shop in the Keys, and there was going to be a direct translation of his gunselling skills and love of the sport to increasing sales in a dive shop. If any retailer were smart, they’d have gun guys run their “always be selling” seminars.
germy
@shomi: They’re arming themselves against black people. Don’t kid yourself.
Zinsky
Betty – as usual, great post! I have also observed that wingnuts are the most pedantic people in the world when it come to weaponry. I’m quite sure these sick degenerates get sexually aroused just thinking or writing about their favorite gun. Could there be a more despicable human than someone like that? Yuck! I think Democrats need to pound these right-wing vermin relentlessly for their hideous, inhuman reaction to this horrible tragedy!
dww44
@Stan: I’m old enough to have grown up in a place and time (the rural South) where we all had family members who had rifles, mostly for hunting and a few had pistols that were usually deployed in the execution of critters who’d invaded the home space. But guns were never the focus and they were very much in the background. Only the police actually wore their guns. No one else did and no one rode around in pickup trucks with guns mounted on their back windows except for the game warden.. My widowed Mom raised 4 kids in a small town and never owned a gun nor ever felt that she needed to. All of that has changed with the gun fetish culture that we now inhabit, and it is not just a Southern thing.
Having said that, I don’t think we who oppose the civilian possession or ownership of military type weapons are under any obligation to become conversant in gun minutiae in order to bring about background checks for the purchase and sale of all guns. And the prohibition of sales to those on any kind of terrorist watch or no fly lists. Actually I’m with Eric Loomis over at LGM with his first post after the Orlando shooting titled “Repeal the 2nd Amendment.”
Ruviana
@PGE: At least I now know what gun to use to bring down a cornfield!
Matt McIrvin
@dww44:
I think it’s actually a pretty instinctual thing in any subculture that revolves around a specialized technical hobby or profession. You’ve probably seen all the rants over the years from computer guys about how not knowing X or Y makes you too stupid to use a computer, or from car guys about the numbskulls who can’t drive a manual or change their own oil (yet dare to have opinions about cars). It’s all a way of marking territory.
Elizabelle
I think the news stations and NPR should strip out all sounds but the bullets and play that audio, again and again.
How do you like your chances against that hail of bullets, as you stand 4 feet from the gunman in a crowded place. With your friends. Do you throw them into the line of fire?
The audio, the fusillade of bullets, is the same sound from the Sandy Hook classrooms, as little children were murdered at their schools, not knowing why someone would do that to them.
It’s chilling to think of being in a disabled plane and having long seconds to feel the aircraft losing altitude or spinning (or see the Alps coming too close, as for the Germanwings victims).
How does it sound to hear that round of bullets? It’s a long, long time, really. Just play it on the radio or TV.
One guy. One gun. And the guy was on a no fly list, and bought an assault rifle, no problem, man.
F*ck the NRA. They own this. Make them own this.
catclub
@Stan:
s/guns/abortion/g and it still fits!
scav
Seem to be a hell of a lot of people avidly trying to regulate and constrain womens health care with demonstrably wrong understandings of womens anatomy, health and pregnancy in general. Gun humpers doen’t seem to out haunting the threads over that in the name of proper norms of allowable governance.
Chip Daniels
@dww44:
Likewise, I’m more interested in knocking the legs out from under the idea that there exists some cosmic natural immutable “right” to a gun-on-demand.
Once this idea becomes challenged, confronted and defeated, gun regulation will become like abortion regulation- amenable to the death of a thousand cuts.
No, we aren’t aiming at the gun nuts themselves- we are aiming at that persuadable middle 15% who tip the balance in elections.
County precinct by precinct, city councilman by state legislator, we rack up tiny victories leading to the prize.
City zoning regulations that restrict gun shops;
Liability laws designed to increase risk to gun dealers;
import restrictions on foreign manufacturers;
Boycott/ Divest/ Sanction movements against gun manufacturers;
Intellectual papers and articles challenging the existence of the right to a gun.
Theology schools inculcating the moral foundation of a ban on guns;
And so on. A constant campaign of harassment, public rebuke, social ostracism at their weak links and choke points.
Xboxershorts
@Uncle Cosmo:
Came here to say that. The SIG MCX has some very significant operational improvements over the AR-15.
A modular design that allows quick exchange of parts that include interchangable barrel and receiver for caliber modifications.
Foldable stock to make it smaller.
Much lighter than the AR-15
A gas pressure absorption feature that provides for damn near no kick and no barrel climb
A gas exhaust process option to allow for unsilence quiet operation.
Let us review:
1) Lighter
2) Smaller
3) Quieter
4) Collabsible
5) Improved accuracy
6) Faster at rounds down range
here’s the gun fetishist videos they produced to sell their product
http://www.sigevolution.com/sigmcx
Yeah, designed specifically for DOD/DOJ applications. But readily available over the counter. It’s a significant improvement over the AR-15
And it’s the gun the Orlando shooter chose.
bemused
@bluehill:
He did sound sincere, even choked up and said he was supposed to be at something miles away but needed to be at this event. It’s extremely rare today to hear a Republican office holder to do this. He may be the only one I can think of that has in many years. I hope we can be encouraged that more will do the same.
SiubhanDuinne
For reasons of cookies and algorithms and spam ads I don’t especially want to look this up myself right now, but does anyone know, roughly, what a basic individual voting NRA membership costs? How many voting members who support common-sense gun safety legs/regs would it take to outnumber and outvote the Wayne LaPierre “cold, dead hands” faction?
Woodrowfan
sounds like a business plan. “Let’s destroy the local economy , cost people their jobs, and then sell them weapons..
Xboxershorts
@Woodrowfan:
Walmart Decides to Drop Sale of AR-15 Assault Rifles
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/opinion/walmart-decides-to-drop-sale-of-ar-15-assault-rifles.html?_r=0
Check it out
chopper
@Stan:
do people get to discuss car safety regulation if they call what’s under the hood a ‘motor’ instead of ‘engine’?
Elizabelle
NY Times a few days ago, The Upshot column:
Compare these gun death rates: The US is in a different world
27 people shot dead — murders, not suicides, every single day of the year in the US of A.
That’s the Paris Bataclan death toll in less than 5 days.
Shame.
(If you look at the graphic, you will see a few of the advanced European countries and Canada grouped around the 5 to 6 deaths each day — if they had the same population as the US — and the United States inches and inches above with 27 deaths every single day. Some countries, particularly Iceland and Norway, are near the 1 death per day mark.)
gvg
My job involves getting financial aid to college students. Most of the aid is Federal, some state, and there are laws and regulations we follow. Sometimes I have to tell someone no. If I do I need to be able to if asked, explain exactly why. That’s only fair. We also need to apply the rules in a consistent and fair way.
If we actually get to a point of having Gun control rules someone is going to have to administer those rules from high level policy to multitudes of lower level bureaucrats who do need clear rules to do their jobs. So yes we do need to know something.
I have seen here in Florida many popular demands derailed deliberately by poorly written (deliberately IMO) referendums that didn’t do what the people voting for them thought or were so complicated that they weren’t enforceable. that ends up discourage people and quiet down the rabble.
In addition the gun addicts will be trying to get around any laws, so you do have to write them in a way that they don’t fail, like prohibition.
One of the points I thought was significant back when I thought this argument had some connection to logic was that in a practical way, the wisest laws about guns need to allow differences based on population density. Back them it seemed to be a city versus rural argument and it annoyed me that people couldn’t see that we actually needed different rules for different enviornments. It’s not that simple any more. City crime has mostly fallen and hunters complain that some of the gun lovers like to be seen with their guns and drink, instead of being very quiet in the woods. The reckless gun lovers actually scare some of the other style of gun lovers.
We also need to avoid getting caught up in hoping for regulations about mental health and guns because that way lies no progress. The problem is that in order for people to be willing to be treated, it has to be confidential, thus there cannot be very effective reporting. Most mental issues are temporary (grief for instance) and never get into violence of self harm. I just don’t see any way around the larger need for confidentiality and I don’t think the mental health professionals are actually all that good at telling what will happen. Actual convictions for something relevant, yes, we can get that into regulations. Domestic violence, anything alcohol with guns, too many alcohol incidents even without guns….threats against people, what else? no hunting license either…alcohol or other intoxicants, “roids bad with guns.
JPL
Twitter tells me that the NRA is going to work with Republicans to draft an acceptable amendment to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists.. Yup… expect something watered down.
Origuy
@schrodinger’s cat:
I don’t know about the South, but a lot of Walmarts are 24 hour.
TriassicSands
After watching Pam Bondi, I felt the need to take a scalding hot shower. What a slimy, hypocritical POS.
bluehill
@bemused: I agree it’s better than nothing. My concern is what he’s going to do to make things better. For example, will he work to make sure Utah has a hate crime law covering LBGT, which apparently was recently voted down? That would go a lot further in helping people than saying you’re sorry.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/3608491-155/senate-kills-hate-crimes-bill-lgbt-advocates
Quinerly
The firewood made him do it.
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/06/wv-sovereign-citizen-murders-three-ar-15
maya
@SiubhanDuinne:
NRA currently boasts 5 million members, which may still include life members who have passed on to that great rifle range in the sky while cleaning their gunz or other natural causes.
Here’s an interesting internal survey result:
If you are concerned about using search engines that track what you search, try Duck Duck Go. No tracking, no cookies.
StringOnAStick
@James E Powell:
Coloradoan here, and I object, a little. The recall for those two brave senators was off-season and voter turn-out was only high among the gun humpers. One senator was from the Xtianist-occupied area of Douglas County/Colorado Springs; and how he was ever elected from there in the first place shocks me. He has gone on to work hard on gun control issues. Now CO has mail-in ballots, which is why the 3 Koch-backed crazy school board members in my county got resoundingly voted out of office in a recall last year, even after Koch-associated groups spent almost $1 million in opposition.
Eric U.
the problem is high capacity, easily replaceable magazines. If the guy was sitting there putting bullets into the gun one at a time, a few people at most would have died.
Quinerly
From 2014:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2737205/Gun-girls-America-Innocent-faces-Pink-rifles-After-horrific-shooting-9-year-old-children-grip-nation-s-troubling-obsession.html
Chris
@Elizabelle:
There was a lot of wingnut triumphalism last November because “ah HA! Now, the liberals can no longer claim that gun control works!” Because the attack took place in a country with much stricter gun controls.
All I could think was, yeah… All we need now is for France to have another ten or twenty terrorist attacks exactly as deadly as this one within the span of a year. And then we’ll be, what, close to even?
SiubhanDuinne
@maya:
Thanks for all that. I’ll give Duck Duck Go a try.
But the numbers in that internal survey, wow! If they’re accurate, you’d think maybe they’d like their leadership to reflect and act on the wishes of the majority.
Chris
@JPL:
It’ll be a call for increased racial profiling, the practical effect of which will be “keep the guns out of the hands of Muslims.” At least that’s my bet.
Southern Beale
Pam Bondi is a worthless piece of shit. Good on Anderson for calling her on her bullshit.
ThresherK (GPad)
@SiubhanDuinne: Taking the “civil” and “defense” out of it, aren’t they?
Why don’t they just slap an AR-15 on their logo while they’re at it?
JCT
Interesting – some word must have come down from “on high” – Both Gretchen the Goofball and the odious Bill-O on Faux spoke in support of regulating semi-auto assault weapons. Should spur yet another buying spree at the very least. Trump better watch his rabid base, he doesn’t have much else…
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@JPL:
Don’t worry – that’ll fall apart the moment Obama says “get the legislation to me and I’ll sign it”.
The ravenous, slavering conservative base will demand it.
hovercraft
I don’t think Donald will appreciate this publicity about his weave.
Craig
@Big Ole Hound:
I don’t know if anyone’s ever told you this but if you go around pre-judging an entire group of people, you’re prejudiced. Florida has had honorable governors: Reubin Askew, Bob Graham, Lawton Chiles. You could disagree about their stance on certain issues yet still know they had Florida’s best interest at heart. Unfortunately the past few elections, Florida’s choices for governor have been people like Rick Scott and that chameleon Charlie Crist.
By the way, Big Ole Hound, what state do you live in?
StringOnAStick
Rep. Steve King said no to the idea that being on a terrorist watch list should DQ you from buying a gun. His reason? Those people deserve to be able to defend themselves too. WTF?
The hidden reason the gun humper reps won’t go for linking the no-fly list to a gun no-buy list is because look at all the patriotic, Christian Bundy-ites that would end up on that list, and we all know the real danger is worshiping the wrong sky daddy.
Elie
How do we jibe the reality that though the NRA is very powerful, gun purchasing is actually going down? I think we need to understand the demographics of this better…. If youth are showing diminished ownership of guns and other groups are also diminishing — this is a big deal for the NRA’s future and the gun manufacturers’ business model. The NRA is not the same as the gun manufacturers, though of course they support each other. Sure, they may be successful now with the largely male, white middle aged folks, but is this their future? Is this same messaging going heavy on the second amendment and fear to stoke purchases, gonna keep working for them? I read somewhere that they are promoting the AR15 because overall sales are down and this is a market that they can build out more. What’s next? Howitzers? I know it will for some, but I have doubts about it. There is a growing anti gun movement that while not now successful, will eventually undercut the fundamentals of gun marketing….Nothing just stays the same without reflecting the actual needs and perceptions of the majority and more and more I believe that the ground under the NRA is shifting.
Elizabelle
@Chris:
130 at the Bataclan means France would need 62 more terrorist attacks — two straight full months of a Bataclan massacre every single night — to rival the 2014 gun homicide toll in the U.S. The American toll is murders; both mass shootings and one on one violence, and does not include suicides.
Madness.
JCT
@Elie: The data are pretty clear that relatively few gun purchases are made by first-time buyers. Instead, the growth is largely among folks who just keep adding to their “collection” – it’s pretty mind-boggling actually. This rumor of this fake “concession” by the NRA coupled to the Orlando massacre is going to fuel quite the run on these weapons. Prices basically tripled overnight on AR-15’s after Sandy Hook. When people joke about gun “fetishists” – they are pretty accurate. And the gun manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank. Merchants of death.
Elizabelle
@JCT:
Interesting. Very interesting.
Stan
@SiubhanDuinne: NRA has about 5 million members.
Was thinking along the same lines (join and outvote the nuts) but it would take a lot of memberships to do it.
I quit the NRA when I was in high school.
bemused
@bluehill:
True, he will have to back up his words with actions to prove he actually gets it. He seems to have learned a few things and has a conscience as opposed to the majority of GOPers so maybe he will be an exception.
Stan
@chopper: Yes. Do you feel better now?
Chris
@Elizabelle:
Well, I’m assuming that this is without adjusting for population size, and France’s population is roughly one-fifth that of the United States. Then adjust further for all the comparatively minor cases of gun deaths that have taken place other than the Bataclan, because that is still a thing in France, just not nearly as ubiquitous as it is in the U.S. The point stands, though: even with a tragedy on the scale of November 13th, France still ends up way behind the United States in gun murders no matter how you measure it.
Elie
@JCT:
Yes, they can make short term money for sure, but I don’t think its the same ongoing revenue potential… I dunno… I don’t know much about guns but I do know some about business and business models…. I don’t think theirs is rock solid though in the near term, obviously it works for them…. Again, the NRA and the gun manufacturers are symbiotic but not the same. The NRA has very low risk — they are a membership organization that as long as they have members, all is cool. The gun manufacturers have to actually sell enough guns and understand where all their business comes from and how they can sustain it — much trickier than that of the membership organization….Must be some way to understand how to use that reality better…
C. Isaac
@bemused:
Here’s to hoping that he’s sincere, but I’m willing to offer cautious optimism.
It’d be hypocritical for me to believe that he couldn’t atone for his mistakes, though. Standing up in Utah of all places, is hard enough, and is a mighty big first step.
This is how change happens, though. One heart at a time.
Mnemosyne
Finally promoted to valued commenter, and on my birthday, too!
To the question of having to know which gun is which, I know enough to be able to say that we should ban semi-automatic rifles for civilians. Full stop. If you need a semi-automatic rifle to take down a deer, you are a very bad hunter who is a danger to everyone around you. Go back to the target range until you can do it with a bolt-action rifle, or give up hunting.
Elizabelle
@Mnemosyne: Happy birthday!!
Elie
@Mnemosyne:
Happy B-day! You missed having the same day as the short fingered vulgarian by one day! My Mom was not so lucky. Her birthday was yesterday. I know she would have hated that coincidence.
Also,congratulations ! but what is that? (valued commenter). Is that a B-J thing?
I didn’t think that the semi-automatic rifle thing was for anything other than dick swinging. For people with small hands and such…
bemused
@dww44:
I grew up with the same experience but in the far north country. My dad and his generation only used rifles for hunting for food and to put down sick farm animals or pets. I don’t remember many of them having any use for pistols. I’m pretty damn sure they would be horrified at our shooting deaths/massacres and contemptuous of gun fetishists.
RedDirtGirl
@Marmot: But doesn’t the LG in Texas have more power than the governor?
Gin & Tonic
@Elie: Not to rain on Mnem’s parade, but I think most commenters here are valued. The creme de la creme are the “universally beloved” like Amir Khalid.
C. Isaac
@RedDirtGirl:
Yes. Lt. Gov basically runs the day to day work of the government in Texas, while the Gov. signs / vetoes bills and can call special legislative sessions… and cuts ribbons at church openings.
chopper
@Stan:
i’m not going to feel better until i know exactly where the line is wherein discussion is reasonably possible.
Elie
@Gin & Tonic:
I had just not heard that term used as an assignment of some sort of status so was curious. I have never felt that there was any particular hierarchy or anything here at B-J (agree about Amir Khalid though :-) ) —
Mike in DC
The fundamental problem is that there are already millions of semi auto weapons in circulation. The existing ones could be sold or transferred via private party sales and transfers. Expanded background checks might have a modest impact. Eventually we may face the challenge of removing categories of restricted firearms from their existing owners. Or, in the alternative, requiring some kind of insurance coverage for them.
Elie
@Mike in DC:
Agree. But those out there in circulation already do not present much if any additional revenue for gun manufacturers. They actually present a barrier to new gun sales, if I am thinking about it correctly. They may make a few individuals and gun show dealers money, but not enough to retire and get rich on is my thought. There are a lot of piglets on the gun teat, but it could be really important to understand where the weak points are and find ways to exploit that. We need to think about this differently somehow…
bemused
@Southern Beale:
Even worse, now she is whining the interview was selectively edited to make her look bad and it was so unfair to bring up all that other stuff she did when she was just supposed to be talking about how she was helping Orlando LBGTs now.
Jack the Second
@gene108:
I’m not sure the Republicans have an option until they unify around a platform that is not terrible.
Every single plank in the Republican platform is odious. Stop all immigration, especially by brown people and double-especially by Muslims. Eliminate progressive taxation. Eliminate the EPA. Stop public schools from teaching anything which conflicts with fundamentalist ideology or fossil fuel profits. Dismantle every last thread of the social safety net. Push all non-heterosexual cis-gendered people back deep in the closet; kill those who peek out. Ensure no person of color ever thinks themselves equal to a white person (putting them all in jail is a good start). Destroy all unions, and all labor protections they gained.
Until the right has a single goddamn goal that isn’t hateful and despicable, they have nothing else to do but get angrier and crazier.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
I think I only got “commenter” before, but A-L was still mad about a spat we’d had over mental health (I think).
Only a very few get to be “universally beloved,” and we all know I’m too much of an asshole to get that.
;-)
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
.
tis true
Mnemosyne
@Mike in DC:
We should be closing that loophole anyway. No more transferring a gun to your cousin and then being shocked, shocked that he used it to kill his coworkers.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elie: I am frequently labeled as “incessant commenter.”
BethanyAnne
@Chris: One of the gun humpers at work said that shit about “armed society is a polite society”. I told him that any place that needed the threat of death to enforce courtesy couldn’t be called a society.
1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet)
@Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class: I can easily believe all of that. Walmart’s competition for gun sales here in Nashville is extensive, and so they don’t devote a great deal of space to that. In a much smaller community, where a larger range of options isn’t easily available (say, within an hour’s drive or so) you could expect to see more.
Your point about salesmanship is spot-on–every series gun hobbyist I’ve known takes pride in being knowledgeable about their equipment and the various options available on the market–just like, say, model railroaders or hard-core bass fishermen or fly fishing enthusiasts. Therefore, to sell successfully to them, you need to know what you’re talking about. You also need a fair amount of passion about what you’re selling.
JCT
@bemused: Well bless her heart, looks like Anderson hit a nerve by exposing her hypocrisy. Too bad Pammy – between TrumpU and your crocodile tears for the LGBTQ community there really aren’t many “safe” topics for you to discuss. Maybe you should just hide in your office and caress your Trump doll.
Mnemosyne
@Elie:
Thank you! I had a friend in grade school that I was a little jealous of because she got to have a holiday on her birthday (Flag Day!) but I’m not jealous anymore.
I do have a celebrity who is my exact birthday twin, day and date: Ice Cube.
Elie
….@Omnes Omnibus:
I guess I just don’t think in terms of labels like that. I see some handles more frequently and get to respect some by the content of their comments, but I just never think of having a label like “frequent or any other kind of commenter… At B-J we make our own way and our own reps by what we think and how we say it – True or False?. Of course, “front pagers” are different, but I thought that the rest of us were just the rest of us for the most part… Interesting. If such assignments/tiers/labels exist or are “awarded”, however, they should be out in the open doncha think?
Matt McIrvin
@Chris:
And when Obama vetoes it, they can turn the complaints back on him.
1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet)
@SiubhanDuinne: There was a distinct change in the NRA internally starting in the 1970s, spearheaded by the gun rights section, which was actually a minority within the membership at that time. Currently, these folks pretty much have a death grip on the way things operate, and I don’t know what it would take to put these people out.
What a contrast from 1934, when the NRA supported federal legislation to outlaw private use of Thompson submachine guns, sawed-off shotguns, and suppressors, and, according to Wikipedia, ‘Karl Frederick, NRA President in 1934, during congressional NFA hearings testified “I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one. … I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.”‘
Matt McIrvin
@Mnemosyne: Kylie Minogue’s birthdate is the day after mine. She was born in Australia, though, so it’s likely we were separated by less than 24 hours.
Mnemosyne
@Elie:
Meh, I was mostly joking. I didn’t mean to start a controversy.
NotMax
@SiubhanDuinne
Another alternative is Ixquick.
Miss Bianca
@bluehill: you know what? I’ll take what I can get. Since it usually takes Republicans a “come to Jesus” moment to discover empathy within themselves, if they have it, let them show it! Last thing I’m going to do at that point is say, “screw your apology.” I’ll only say that if post-apology they don’t take action to change their ways, or change some legislation.
@Stan: I happen to have come around to your way of thinking on this – not that I disagree with Mnemosyne – emotionally speaking, I don’t give a damn either, and I find it exhausting to realize I have to care about “make and model” and getting the terminology right – but that’s the only way to begin to reach people in the areas where I live.
Miss Bianca
@StringOnAStick: @James E Powell: Also, specifically, the Libertarian shenanigans that invalidated the mail-in voting. That contributed to depressing the vote.
Elie
@Mnemosyne:
I appreciate that you did not mean to say anything controversial. I — just like understanding what’s what and testing my assumptions in light of known facts. You shared information that while doesn’t mean much, still was at variance from what I thought that I knew about being here and commenting on B-J. Since no one has stepped up to say one way or the other, that such a label, value, etc, does NOT exist, I am now getting the feeling that the issue is being avoided. As you might surmise, most folks don’t like having their questions avoided…. it smacks of a lot of a community where some people “know” things and others don’t. Since I always thought of B-J as a flat, non-hierarchical group for the most part, your announcement got my attention. So, what is it?
The Other Chuck
@SiubhanDuinne: McVeigh also didn’t use ordinary fertilizer, he used bomb grade ammonium nitrate, which was sometimes being sold as fertilizer. Not anymore.
The screeching gun humpers can’t even get their own facts right, which should surprise exactly no one.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Jack the Second: You forgot moar gunz are always the cure for gun violence. That has to be one of their planks. I wish someone would ask the “ban the Muslims” crowd why infringing on millions of Americans’ first amendment rights (freedom of religion) is preferable to infringing on a relatively few people’s second amendment rights (making sure crazy violent people can’t buy guns).
There are millions of Muslims. There are not nearly as many millions of crazy people. The answer is probably that too many of said crazy people are white gun fetishizers, and it’s preferable to infringe on the rights of millions of brown people to protect the rights of a few white nut jobs.
Miss Bianca
@Mnemosyne: Happy birthday, valued commenter! : )
Chris
@dww44:
@bemused:
I didn’t grow up with guns, but this basically confirms the impression I’ve always had. That back in the times (and places) when a gun actually was “just a tool, like a hammer or a drill,” there was none of this near-pornographic cult of firearms as the embodiment of America, freedom, and manly virtue. The rise of the NRA gun-cult only occurred in a nation that was much more urbanized, much more white collar, much more middle class, etc, in which guns are no longer a tool that’s used for most people, but instead have become a relic of what people imagine things used to be in the old days.
Elie
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
Not sure about that. Ever listen to the responses given by Trump supporters as to why they support him and such? There is some deep detachment from reality. Someone speculated that maybe all the medications/psychoactive drugs being put in the water supply accounts for it. Who knows but I am seriously wondering whether the statistics for prevalence of certain mental diseases have way underestimated the problem.
The Other Chuck
@Stan:
I’m not super-technical, but I’ll give this a shot: a gun fires chunks of metal at high velocity at whatever it’s pointed at when the trigger is pulled. The purpose of which is to cause serious injury or death.
Correct me if I got any of this wrong.
les
@Stan:
Not really. We need to know, and already do, that there are too many, too available and used mostly to kill people. If more is needed to craft legislation, that’s why there are experts. Don’t really care if the knowledge comes from a lefty, a righty or an apolitical.
Paul in KY
@Uncle Cosmo: A Sig will cost more.
Elie
@Mnemosyne:
Ah c’mon, girlfriend… Spit it out! You completely have me in the mode that now I won’t give it up… Whatever, it isn’t THAT bad but you need to say what you mean and mean what you say… Lets get over it!
Betty Cracker
@Elie: I can offer my assurances that there is no official commenter hierarchy nor any discussion behind the scenes (that I am aware of, anyway) of who is valued, beloved, frequent, incessant, etc. I almost always say “valued commenter” in a spirit I would describe as “ironic courtesy.” I value all commenters (except egregious trolls) because they contribute to this community, but like anyone else, I have my opinions on individuals, which I mostly try to keep to myself.
Elie
@Betty Cracker:
Thank you, Betty. That was all that I needed.
Didn’t mean to be stubborn but I have been in situations where I didn’t end up knowing what I thought that I knew about an organization. Its a sore spot for me because it cost me a lot as a black woman trying to climb the corporate ladder. This of course, is nowhere like that, but it brought back bad memories of not knowing key things to be successful or as importantly, how to protect myself – and also asking people that I trusted and not being told things.
les
@BethanyAnne:
I hope you smacked him. A throwaway line from a minor story by a hackish scifi author. An armed society is a frightened society. Or terrorized, if you prefer.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Elie: I’ve been here since 2008. No such label exists. No hierarchy of the commentariat exists.
Might want to get that paranoia of yours checked out, though. Seriously. What you just did here is not a normal reaction to general social interaction/courtesies. It’s kinda fucked up and really offputting.
Enhanced Voting Techinques
Excpet it does, semi’s have always been legal and the gun in question was designed for SWAT use.
Let wiki explain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_516
Which means restritcing its’ sales might be tricky…
Oh, and yes, that know nothing and proud attitued is what the other side does. Fuck you too.
Elie
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
It IS pretty fucked up. I explained in my response to Betty where that came from. Sorry to be so revealing and especially not in a good way. Sometimes life marks us up and in moments of weakness, the scar gets revealed. Apologies. Stupid. Apologies also to Mnem —
Miss Bianca
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Whoa! I wouldn’t take things that far, personally
@Elie: you are certainly a valued commenter to *me*. : )
Elie
@Miss Bianca:
That is all that matters, friend. :-)
Paul in KY
@bluehill: Watch that Cox guy. He’s a devious politician with some skill, it appears.
Paul in KY
@TriassicSands: Most honest-to-God ‘hunting’ rifles are bolt action. So between shots, you manually clear the used cartridge & then manually load in the next one. Much more time consuming than a semi-automatic.
Paul in KY
@Mnemosyne: Best wishes on your birthday!
Soylent Green
I can top that. John Goodman and I were maternity room mates. Same St. Louis hospital, same day.
Betty Cracker
@Elie: No worries!
@Enhanced Voting Techinques: Fuck you as well! Now that we’ve dispensed with the pleasantries, perhaps peruse the thread and comprehend the context in which it “doesn’t fucking matter,” i.e., in discussions about the latest atrocity and general citizen advocacy for removing what the president and Democratic nominee often refer to as “weapons of war” from the streets.
No one is saying those charged with lobbying directly for or developing regulations shouldn’t either be experts themselves or consult experts. And I think it makes sense to understand basic distinctions between gun types such as semi-automatic (legal) and fully automatic (already illegal) for the purposes of having a discussion. But getting down into the weeds on firearms minutiae is a bullshit distraction that is often used by NRA shills to derail discussions and dismiss perfectly valid opinions and observations. That’s the objection.
Kenneth Almquist
@dww44: “Until that conversation last evening I had not encountered the right’s effort to reduce the conversation about the Orlando shooting to a technical one about guns.”
This isn’t new. The argument that “assault weapon” is not a well defined term goes back to the 1990’s or before. He got you to concede that “assault weapons” include certain hunting rifles. That’s part of an argument that banning assault weapons is a slippery slope that will end up taking hunter’s guns away from them.
BethanyAnne
@les: He was deeply confused that I had a response, and just repeated the line. So, I said my response, slower. And he just gave up, not knowing what to do.