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You are here: Home / Organizing & Resistance / Don't Mourn, Organize / Open Thread: Changing the Direction of the Conversation, Hopefully

Open Thread: Changing the Direction of the Conversation, Hopefully

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nra gop ventriloquist sheneman

(Drew Sheneman via GoComics.com)
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274Comments

  7. 7.

    Baud

    laura olin @lauraolin
    republicans win when people get disgusted by how broken government is and tune out. so they make it as broken as possible

    People = left of center voters here. If the Dems intentionally broke government, the Republicans would not tune out. It the one positive thing I’ve been able to say about them over the years.

  12. 12.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud:

    If the Dems intentionally broke government, the Republicans would not tune out.

    They’d get in there and help to maximize the damage.

  13. 13.

    satby

    @Baud: none of the drug testing programs have saved any states any money. Like so much Republican governance, it’s a scam wrapped up in a talking point.

  14. 14.

    NotMax

    There was one Gooper (Gohmert? – can’t recall precisely which one) who said the the House is not a place to express a political agenda.

    Boggles, the mind doth.

  18. 18.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby: They aren’t supposed to save money. Their purpose is to shame the lazy bums off the welfare rolls.

  19. 19.

    NotMax

    @Baud

    Oh, is that what it is? Looks like someone singing along while wearing headphones.

    Encounter the same problem with emojis as have with the little symbols on knobs and controls in cars, where everything looks like it might be “fan.”

  20. 20.

    low-tech cyclist

    @rikyrah:

    Kills me -the clowns who voted to take away health care for 20 million people have the nerve to talk about stunts

    Aw, give ’em a break! It was only a stunt the 2nd through 60th times they voted. The 1st and 61st times, they really meant it!

  21. 21.

    satby

    So, to continue the tree on the house saga, a crew showed up yesterday with a bucket truck. The insurance people had promised someone would be there “in the next 24-48 hours” so I thought it was a company they called. Turns out it wasn’t, and so this crew stopped working after getting a few branches off to wait for authoritarian to keep going. The insurance company refused to give them a work order, and told me their people would be here last night or this morning. Cracks are starting to show in the wall under where the tree is and now I’m wondering if I have a case of action against the insurance company.
    I also caught the tip of the bumper of the rental car I’m driving on a three inch high cedar landscape timber and it pulled the corner bumper and plastic wheel guard away from the car. So I can pay for that before I turn the car back in.
    I spent a good chunk of yesterday crying and I don’t usually cry about much.

  25. 25.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: we know that, but a significant percentage of people think it’s supposed to save states money. Support for drug testing drops when it’s shown it just wastes money, except for the 27% of bone deep haters.

  29. 29.

    Botsplainer, Neoliberal Corporatist Shill

    @satby:

    So long as they repair everything that is now going bad from their neglect, they’re off the hook.

    I would demand the name of your adjuster’s superior in order to complain about the delays. They should be putting you in a hotel and assisting you in safeguarding the property.

  30. 30.

    satby

    @Baud: ya think? You just get through each day best as you can, and people call you strong. Not sure there’s an alternative here.

  37. 37.

    NotMax

    Le sigh.

    Hours after the Brexit took place on Friday, Google Trends tweeted that questions like ‘What does it mean to leave the EU?’, ‘What is the EU?’ and ‘Which countries are in the EU?’ were the most searched queries on Google.

    The fact that people were trying to find out what the EU is in the first place hours after voting to leave it makes one skeptical about the awareness of the voters. Source

    Also, too:

    “In England patriotism takes different forms in different classes, but it runs like a connecting thread through nearly all of them… In the working class patriotism is profound, but it is unconscious. The working man’s heart does not leap when he sees a Union Jack. But the famous ‘insularity’ and ‘xenophobia’ of the English is far stronger in the working class than in the bourgeoisie. In all countries the poor are more national than the rich, but the English working class are outstanding in their abhorrence of foreign habits. Even when they are obliged to live abroad for years they refuse either to accustom themselves to foreign food or to learn foreign languages. Nearly every Englishman of working-class origin considers it effeminate to pronounce a foreign word correctly. During the war of 1914-18 the English working class were in contact with foreigners to an extent that is rarely possible. The sole result was that they brought back a hatred of all Europeans, except the Germans, whose courage they admired. In four years on French soil they did not even acquire a liking for wine. The insularity of the English, their refusal to take foreigners seriously, is a folly that has to be paid for very heavily from time to time. But it plays its part in the English mystique, and the intellectuals who have tried to break it down have generally done more harm than good. At bottom it is the same quality in the English character that repels the tourist and keeps out the invader.”
    – George Orwell snipped from here

    Switching gears:

    Why is such an obvious public safety crisis so seemingly impossible to fix?

    Would not reasonable voices on both sides of the gun debate, in the spirit of defending “public safety,” be able to come to some commonsense resolution on the issue of expanding background checks to include the private sale of guns or banning weapons such as the AR-15 assault weapon and its various incarnations, whose only purpose is to efficiently kill people?

    But “public safety” isn’t driving the gun discussion. It’s paranoia dressed up in faux patriotism.

    This didn’t begin with the election of Barack Obama to the presidency, but the delusion the government wants to take everyone’s guns away certainly has escalated on his watch. Since Obama assumed office, Forbes magazine estimates the gun industry has seen a 158 percent growth rate, going from $19.1 billion in sales in 2008 to $49.3 billion in 2015. And the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms [sic] estimates gun-owning households have an average of 8.1 weapons. Source

  40. 40.

    satby

    @NotMax: Your second excerpt on public safety is interesting. The NRA has completely turned that concept on it’s head by making the paranoid think they contribute to public safety by owning and carrying a gun. Defunding public health studies on gun deaths and impacts on public safety was the way they could peddle that BS unchallenged.
    I hope the conversation shifts a bit, because the same old feedback loop goes nowhere.

  42. 42.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    More fallout from the Bundy occupation in Oregon. Harney County Senior Center is trying to raise enough money to get a matching grant to make up for the loss of county funds, which have been diverted to paying for costs related to the occupation.

    A shame they can’t make the sovcit idiots bear all the costs of the recall attempt on the judge.

  44. 44.

    HRA

    @satby:

    What worked for me when I was being not treated properly was to advise the CEO of the insurance company about it. I did it twice on separate occasions and insurance companies. It worked very well both times.

    Best regards,
    HRA

  48. 48.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @NotMax:
    I wonder if that is 27% of the population of Britain that are googling?

    Having a BIL that is an gundementalist ammosexual I have to say that the lat 8 years have not been any worse than the 8 years of Clinton. The paranoid delusional propaganda BIL has been listening to is pretty much the same as it was. There was a lull while W was in the White House but I don’t see it as louder, more paranoid or more vitriolic that it was in the 90s.

  52. 52.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @Baud:

    Michigan’s drug-testing welfare program has yielded zero positive results so far

    Thanks. I shared that Guardian article to FB just now. That’ll have heads exploding as soon as my family wake up.
    Grab 303 random citizens off the street in Bloomfield Hills and I’d Toby Ziegler bet you one would test positive. Drugs are just too expensive if you’re on government assistance.

  53. 53.

    Elizabelle

    @satby: you are due for a change of luck, my friend. Make yourself a good cup of coffee or tea, write that letter about getting better response from your insurance company.

    And then think about a lovely trip you will take, once the mom’s check comes in ( in due course, once markets have settled). You are owed.

  55. 55.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @satby
    We had a house fire about 10 years ago (Hi-larious story, a workman set the place on fire & did not realize it. Typical schlemazel story) I have been trying to think of something useful from that experience that I could share with you but there isn’t much I’m afraid.

    The insurance company was OK, they put us up in a hotel until they could find a place for rent that we could live in. They also rented furniture for us and told us to go buy some cloths and send them the receipts. I believe your company should do the same as I have not heard of any chiseling bastards not doing similar. If you are not getting a good response talk to your agent, some companies bonus adjusters for keeping costs down but the agent is the person who makes money off you personally so they will care a whole lot more. If you still feel you are getting the run around you might contact your state insurance commissioner and the BBB. I’d go up the companies chain first but ho knows if that will help.

    Meantime, cry if you have to, curse the company and the recovery company (it took 4 months when projected at 2 and there were days they did nothing at all and times they just diddled around so as to drive us nuts) or anything else you need to when feeling down. There will be bad days but there is no reason the insurance company should make them worse, you pay them to support you in just this sort of case. It is cliche but hang in there it will get better

  58. 58.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @rikyrah: Our (outdoor) town pool opens this weekend. It’s time for me to freckle up.

    @OzarkHillbilly: Were you the one sending good vibes for my overheating 17 y.o. Volvo? It worked: Not a radiator. Minimal money, only a couple bits and hoses that were so much easier for them to replace on this model.

    I think bringing my mechanic some brownies did the trick.

  59. 59.

    bystander

    So far, those congratulating the British on Brexit include Putin, Palin, Trump, Iran, ISIS and Marine Le Pen. Is there a pattern here?

  62. 62.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @ThresherK (GPad): Yep. Glad it worked, and brownies never hurt, especially the special kind.

    Heh- just remembered a story- my pig farming buddy had some ex coworkers over for dinner, one asked if special brownies were OK to bring. “Yeah sure, no problem.” When they got there, they set them on the table with all the other food people had brought to share, then took the nickel tour of the 40 acres. When they came back, the brownies were gone.

    And there was one high as a kite Labrador laying around for about 2 days.

  63. 63.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    I would guess that the Brits Googling to find out what the EU is are people too young to vote. They grew up in the EU and are curious what it means to leave it. The Olds who voted to exit know what the EU means: brown people where they don’t want to see them.

  64. 64.

    satby

    @JPL: @Elizabelle: @Schlemazel Khan: Thanks guys. I’m hanging in,and just in case looking at other properties, because the birch of it all is this one is (well, was) $34k underwater. More than a couple of people have suggested I just mail in the keys and wish Quicken luck. It’s just hard to find alternative housing with 9 rescue pets.
    But, every day a new beginning!

  66. 66.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: the corporate traders I used to do IT support for (big clients like Fidelity), used to be such coke heads they’d come back from the washroom still snorting. Richest people I ever worked with, they would drop a few hundred cash on putting contests during slow periods.

  68. 68.

    Applejinx

    what Democrats in Congress has done over the last few weeks is remind people what it can feel like when your legislature cares about you.

    Any word on what we’re supposed to do with the Dem 2016 platform? Twitter’s blowing up about it, and my sense is, if it is fucked up hard enough Hillary lost me. Never mind the more determined busters I know, if this is fucked up too much I’m out. What exactly do we get if we don’t get to

    -go singlepayer (no shit, saw that one coming: no problem there)
    -ban fracking (is it THAT important to export death to the rest of the world in more forms than just guns? Germany is already not having any)
    -establish $15 minimum wage (oh COME ON are you shitting me, can’t even run on that?)
    -reject TPP (wait, what? Hils and Bernie both agreed it sucked, publically)

    I’ve been told here that the platform is meaningless. What exactly is still in it that’s worth having? Honest question. It looks like the wackjobs and hippies are turning out to be right, and that is not exactly good news. There’s got to be SOMETHING still there because if it’s meaningless and even then has to be right wing as hell, we might as well start blowing stuff up now. Which things are still there?

  69. 69.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @satby:
    one of the problems we ran into was finding a rental that would allow cats. I think the insurance company paid a special damage deposit but they got that all back.

  70. 70.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @satby:

    This is appalling. I have no advice for you, but I’m sending along all the virtual hugs I can muster at this hour of the morning. You are an extraordinary person, and I have admired you very much for a long time.

  73. 73.

    Elizabelle

    @Applejinx: take a deep breath and check back on the platform in a few weeks. No sense making yourself miserable, and basically threatening to be a vote for the GOP. Too early in the day to be that douche-y.

  74. 74.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Applejinx:

    Any word on what we’re supposed to do with the Dem 2016 platform?

    It’s being worked on, yesterday and today, and rumors from shitheads who want to blow everything up aren’t exactly the people one wants to listen to. You might try waiting to see what actually comes out of it before you get your panties in a bunch.

    As to what might actually be in it, remember Bernie lost. He does not get whatever he wants put into it, that is just a fact and you need to get used to it.

  75. 75.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @Elizabelle:
    Meh, I can laugh about it now but it was scary at the time. The workman was using a cutting torch to remove some heating pipes. Because we had gutted the kitchen & bath the walls were wide open but we didn’t know they had built a double wall for the attached garage so he did not see the extent of the fire he started. He put out what he saw & went back to work. Our younger son was home from school & doing his homework in his room wondering why the smoke detectors were going off but thinking it must be from the guys cutting torch. Finally he gets tired of it & decides to stop studying & see what is going on. When he opened his door he was looking right into the bathroom, totally on fire! He yelled at the workman & ran downstairs to try and find the cats. The work man ran out & got the garden hose & was trying to squirt the wall!!! Son called 911 and was frantic because he could not find one of the cats. The contractor was driving by and saw the fire – he immediately drove to city hall & pulled a permit to do the work on the house! (he is a guy I knew & trusted and I had no idea he was sorta shady that way). We did find the other cat after the firefighters left. SHe was terrified and hiding under a book case.

  77. 77.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @satby:
    How you’re treated by an insurance company can depend on whose ear you get. The same company – my former employer, btw – that treated my dad like a prince when a tornado de-roofed his house treated my MIL like a nuisance when her home caught fire. She slept on a relative’s couch for a year while we fought with the insurer to get the house fixed. She was 79 years old.
    My advice from a former career inside that business is if you get stonewalled be a nuisance until you get the names of managers in the claims department. Claims may be handled by contract employees or freelancers. If you make enough phone calls to the company things will start to happen.
    And I’m very sorry for your misfortune.

  78. 78.

    Gimlet

    If only Scalia were still alive, he could find the original framers constitutional support for “Texit”.

  79. 79.

    Betty Cracker

    @Applejinx:

    Twitter’s blowing up about it…

    I think I see your problem right there. WaPo has an article on it here. Sounds like typical squabbling and power feints to me.

  80. 80.

    germy

    @satby: You’re one of my favorite commenters. I’m looking forward to the time when all this nonsense is behind you and you can laugh about it.

  81. 81.

    Applejinx

    @Elizabelle:
    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Copy that, Elizabelle, Hillbilly, Betty. It’s not done, huh? That’s good.

    I was asking for ‘what is still good’, I notice there’s no sign of walking back racial justice issues and that’s very important. I’m aware Obama is all for the TPP and I know why Hils wants fracking (major US export) though I disagree, and I seriously don’t care about the single payer as that is an unrealistic goal right now and not a hill worth dying on.

    I’d like to know what they intend vis-a-vis banking/finance reform (so I’m watching how they handle Elizabeth Warren), and I’m alarmed about failing to back the $15 minimum wage thing in a non-binding platform. That seems like a really major misstep. I’ll wait (still interested in hearing what IS in this platform that’s worth giving a shit about, there MUST be something, they can’t run on TPP, fracking and stalling on minimum wage)

  83. 83.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Schlemazel Khan: Fricken plumbers…. I’ve seen that happen more than once. Was working on an 1800s house in Lafayette Square when one torched a 150 year old 2×4. Tried to put it out for 10 minutes before he finally told somebody, We could have just ripped it out in the beginning but by then it was too late and had spread and we had to call the fire dept. Damage was minimal, but what a pain in the arse.

  84. 84.

    Elizabelle

    @Ultraviolet Thunder: Hmmm. Pack of vitriolic jackals, with enough time on our hands to be haunting this blog, and typing skills, and Satby possibly at wit’s end, at some point, on following up with insurance company or its freelancers.

    We could have some fun drafting letters for Satby, and keeping the insurance company supplied with lots of emails to respond to. Maybe easier for them to just authorize fixing the damn house, correctly, the first time, and expeditiously.

  85. 85.

    Gimlet

    Where will the Florida Democrats find another moderate Republican at this late date?

    This week the local Miami CBS station released a two-part investigation into Murphy’s financial conflicts and his ongoing lies about his education and his job experience in the private sector. It’s devastating.

    His claim to fiscal expertise lies with his alleged background as a CPA. Upon investigation, it turned out that Murphy repeatedly failed the Florida CPA exam and never worked a day in that capacity.

    His heroic tale of creating an innovative new type of “oil-skimming” boat, thoroughly tested by the government and found to be 100 percent effective, to help with the BP spill turns out to be false. Certainly, the government has no record of ever seeing one.

    The “small business” he brags about starting from scratch was actually affiliated with his father’s very successful construction firm. In other words, he’s an empty suit – Salon

  86. 86.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Applejinx:

    I know why Hils wants fracking

    I would love to see the end of all fracking, global warming and all you know, but it’s not happening. Not now, not next year, not next decade, probably not in my life time. Demanding something I will never get is a waste of time. I will work on getting something that is possible, like an expansion of solar/wind power thru what ever means possible. That is doable.

  87. 87.

    Applejinx

    @Betty Cracker:
    Thank you, Betty, that’s even more helpful.

    Committee members were united in strengthening the document’s language on regulating Wall Street and taxing the wealthy, among other issues. Immigration and criminal justice also emerged as rallying points.

    I will delightedly trade that for a quixotic insistence on single payer immediately. It’s true that our system is immensely screwed up and tied deeply into our economy such that it can’t be unwound in one step without catastrophe.

    (re: TPP) The move was blocked by committee members who said it was impertinent to rebuke the president in his own party’s platform.

    I can see that, too, but Obama might have to take one for the team here. Backing the TPP risks stirring up the same dragons that gave the UK Brexit. The optics of it are really bad across the board. Sounds like what’s being rejected is, putting that rebuke IN the platform, rather than some ‘now we all love the TPP, sucks to be an American worker’ plank? See, this is what I was asking about: the twitter hashtag predictably makes it seem like TPP is enshrined in the platform, where the point of contention is ‘do we actively rebuke it as a platform?’.

    I find it easy to believe the Sanders folks brought a $15 minimum wage when there already was one, and then acted like theirs was the only one. Their role is pretty much formally to be provocateurs, otherwise why even have them? What I’d want is for them to fight smart rather than being bozos about it and duplicating what’s already there, but sadly it’s all too plausible that they’re playing ‘mine is better than yours’.

    *sigh* from ‘walking fretfully away from Clinton’ to ‘walking disappointedly away from Bernie’ in ten minutes. I wish you could motivate Democrats to fight really hard and swing for the fences, WITHOUT also being a total fuckwit gadfly. Unfortunately it looks like the Democratic party is too big a donkey to move on its own volition: it only shifts when stung by fuckwits, God knows what we’d have if Hillary had run unopposed.

  89. 89.

    debbie

    @rikyrah:

    Kills me -the clowns who voted to take away health care for 20 million people have the nerve to talk about stunts

    The stunt of all stunts was the government shutdown. I’d like to hear a Dem point this out, loudly, to the GOP and the media.

  90. 90.

    ThresherK

    Am I the only one who sees the word “Texit” as a sleazy way to not say “secession”?

    The BRs got a scheduled vote on Brextiing.

    Texas doesn’t get to vote on this. What they want is better called Texcession.

  92. 92.

    debbie

    @satby:

    You deserve much better than all the crap you’ve been dealt in the past week. I really hope it turns around soon for you.

  94. 94.

    JPL

    @Gimlet: All I know is that Deloitte released a statement, saying that Murphy worked as a CPA from them, and they accepted his license from another state.

  95. 95.

    debbie

    @satby:

    I’m not sure if the CFPB covers this kind of insurance, but you can at least file a complaint with your state’s insurance commissioner. Assuming Snyder hasn’t abolished the office.

  96. 96.

    Elizabelle

    @oldgold:

    First plank: not turning executive branch over to Donald Trump.

    Or any Republican nominee for president in 2016. That trumps all other planks, pun intended.

    Supreme Court, bitchez. Never forget. The rest is just noise.

  97. 97.

    Betty Cracker

    @Applejinx: Regarding the TPP, my read is that opposition to it as negotiated is baked into the platform, but the parties are disagreeing on how to word that, i.e., Cummings (who opposes TPP) thinks it would be disrespectful to the president to include a clause promising to vote it down in Congress.

    That doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. If the voters whose candidate lost by a significant margin can demand concessions, supporters of a two-term president who is wildly popular within his party should have their concerns respected as well.

  99. 99.

    Gimlet

    @JPL:

    Apart from the recent examination of his background.

    http://www.salon.com/2016/06/24/the_democrats_florida_fumble_rep_patrick_murphy_is_a_disaster_candidate_that_might_help_republicans_keep_the_senate/
    Heather Digby Parton

    Congressman Patrick Murphy a two-term congressman with a very wealthy and generous Republican father. The Democrats had persuaded Murphy to switch his R to a D in 2012 and he unsurprisingly went on to compile one of the most conservative records in the House Democratic caucus. He was even one of the chief Benghazi witch hunters enthusiastically helping Republicans smear Hillary Clinton.

    In fact, it was rumored that Murphy was missing his old buddies in the GOP:

    According to a source very close to the Republican Congressional leadership, Speaker of the House of Representatives John Boehner granted Patrick Murphy’s request to a private meeting to discuss Murphy’s possible defecting to the Republican Party.

    For reasons unknown that didn’t happen and Murphy then became the Democratic establishment’s choice for Rubio’s seat.

  100. 100.

    satby

    So the tree guys showed up: 2 men and a skinny meth head chick with three chainsaws. Planning to work on the roof. I told them they weren’t going up there until I heard from the vendor manager and made my objections to additional weight on my damaged roof clear.
    What a load of horseshit.

  101. 101.

    Chyron HR

    @Applejinx:

    It’s funny how actual Democrats are expected to promote Sanders’ old platform even though he’s completely abandoned it in favor of demanding open primaries and other rule changes to benefit his Republican and Libertarian “supporters”.

  102. 102.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @Elizabelle:
    The problem is that for efficiency insurance companies often sub out remediation/restoration/repair to independents. This actually makes more sense than having enough permanent staff of their own to deal with what’s likely to be a drastically varying workload. The subcontractors vary in quality and responsiveness. Key is to get through to the insurance company directly, as high up as possible, and get an advocate inside the claims department. This can take Googling around to get people’s names and making directed contacts to those people.
    Insurance is a public service business, and as evil as their ossified bureaucracy makes them appear, individually the people do care about their customers.

  103. 103.

    Baud

    @Gimlet: I’m not saying the reporting is wrong, but Salon is no longer a credible source for me. Much like the NYT has lost credibility on anything to do with the Clintons.

  104. 104.

    Betty Cracker

    @Gimlet: Murphy issued a point-by-point rebuttal here. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out, but I strongly suspect that if the Democrats nominate Grayson, we’ll have another six years of Rubio.

  105. 105.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @Elizabelle:
    Exactly! The USSC is just the first among many things was cannot let the current iteration of the GOP control.

    I was not an Obama supporter in 08 (nor a Clinton one) because I wanted someone more liberal. I busted my butt for BHO because despite my disappointment I knew the alternative was so much worse. After 8 years my opinion has not changed, I still want someone to the left of Obama on so many issues but I am more than pleased with what he has done. To me the choice is easy, 4 years (at least) of the assholery of the Boy Blunder maladministration or 4 years (at least) of a slightly right-of-center Obama-like administration. The choice is obvious to anyone not suffering from severe methane poisoning because of where their head is. It is the USSC and a thousand smaller things that move the needle in the right direction instead of the wrong direction.

  106. 106.

    TriassicSands

    England votes to leave EU (I intentionally used England, not UK).

    Meanwhile, the US toys with the idea of electing the most unqualified major party presidential candidate ever.

    Neither country is remotely as “special” as it thinks it is.

  108. 108.

    Aimai

    @Applejinx: fuck off. No really just fuck off. If you thought a presidential election was all about how you, personally, get everything you ever dreamed of the instant you woke from your juvenile stupor you were wrong. If bernie told you to take your vote and go home, shitting over allllllll the rest of the voters then he deserves the insults and execrations of history right along with you and your bernfeeler buddies. Your political acumen is right up there with the befuddled, old, xenophobic, isolatiinist, racist old farts who voted “leave” yesterday and today are stumbling around wailing “i had no idea it could happen.” The democratic platform is not a good chance for a smash and grab robbery at a candy store. just stfu about you and your preciousssss vote.

  109. 109.

    Gimlet

    @Betty Cracker:

    Wiki

    He earned a bachelor’s degree from the University of Miami in Business Administration, although he claimed in his official biography for the House of Representatives to have dual degrees in Accounting and Finance.[6] Murphy then spent a year as a at Deloitte and Touche. Although this is an accounting firm, he performed no work that required him to be CPA certified.[6] He was unable to become certified in the state of Florida, choosing to seek certification in Colorado, a state in which he has never lived or worked. He was unable to meet Florida’s requirements to take the exam, and instead signed up with the State of Vermont’s Board of Public Accountancy.[6] He sought his license in Colorado because of the less stringent requirements.

    He was then hired as vice president of his family’s construction business.[7] After the 2010 BP oil spill, he was tasked with creating a subsidiary of his father’s company, called Coastal Environmental, that secured contracts to remove oil in the Gulf of Mexico.[8] He only worked for the company for two to five months.[6]

  110. 110.

    satby

    No one answering phones, no one calling back. Meth head #1 is saying he’s got great insurance and he doesn’t see bad damage at all.
    I’m about to just say fuck it and get it done and if one falls through we can all wait the 15 or 20 minutes for the private ambulance to show up.

  111. 111.

    PsiFighter37

    @Applejinx: Why would the Clinton team at the DNC have any incentive to incorporate what the Berners want into the national platform?

    Bernie can negotiate the terms of his surrender, and whatever ‘concessions’ he can wring out of the Clinton campaign – that can get incorporated into the platform. Until then, I honestly hope that he gets screwed at every turn of the DNC, even on matters that are worth supporting.

  113. 113.

    Betty Cracker

    @Gimlet: Looks like we have a choice between two deeply flawed, ethically challenged, CV-fudging Democrats, one of whom will surely lose to Marco Rubio and the other of whom might have a chance to flip the seat. Thanks, FlaDems!

  115. 115.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    @satby:
    Knuckleheads with chain saws and ladders. Got video on your phone? You could be internet famous, with a meme of your own.

  117. 117.

    PsiFighter37

    @Gimlet: A bunch of speculation and hearsay, and after reading the rebuttal, it seems like the CBS report was a thinly-veiled hit piece.

    Is Murphy an ideal candidate? Heck no, but Florida Democrats have been awful for too long to remember at this point. Grayson actively running a hedge fund while in Congress is a huge red flag. He also is an asshole in the Sanders style. I would vote for Murphy (with reservations) in the primary – and unquestionably so in the general when he goes up against Little Marco.

  118. 118.

    Elizabelle

    @Betty Cracker: When is the filing deadline for the Senate seat? What are the chances the Democrats could cough up a better candidate?

    Hell, Betty, you should run. On the “no fucks left to give” platform. You’re smarter than Rubio, by a factor of probably ten, and you’re human too. (With chickens.) And you could be very entertaining and get some support.

    If Murphy is that flawed, let someone else run. And Grayson: just — no. He’s more of a TV talker type. With a lot of personal problems.

  119. 119.

    ThresherK

    @Gimlet: Yep. She’s the diamond set in paste at Salon.

    My BernieBuster FB friends have posted more crap from someone I’m not familiar with. This is about “progressives ditching the Democrats have the most to gain by voting Green”, by Peter Gaffney.

    Is Gaffney just another jagoff who rolled out of the gumball machine full of em Salon seems to have?

  120. 120.

    Baud

    @Gimlet:

    Heather Digby Parton – has reliable creds

    @PsiFighter37:

    A bunch of speculation and hearsay, and after reading the rebuttal, it seems like the CBS report was a thinly-veiled hit piece.

    Something’s gotta give.

  121. 121.

    ThresherK

    @Elizabelle: And BettyC owns a big-ass truck she does real truck stuff with.

    She doesn’t get a limo ride to it and drive the last mile to a campaign stop.

  123. 123.

    Elizabelle

    @Baud: Can we file for Betty to run?

    I feel a campaign to remember coming on.

    Give Florida something to talk about, other than guns, gators and Disney.

  124. 124.

    Elizabelle

    Heading out to get some lunch, but will check in with you guys. Wifi permitting.**

    ** they pronounce it “wiffy” here.

  125. 125.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: their own inspector just showed up and told me she was ordering them to start. Oddly, I know her from rescue stuff around here, she’s working with one of the group’s I used to be in.
    Fuck it all. I need to move.

    I’m rooting for (very minor, like a broken leg) injuries though, just so the insurance company has more liability to deal with. And so Mr. 30 year old who has great insurance and knows fucking everything gets a lesson about how nice dealing with insurance really is.

  129. 129.

    Elizabelle

    @OzarkHillbilly: I will ask around a bit and confirm that for you later.

    Funny thing: the teacher who taught us about “wiffy” speaks English with a Leeds (UK) accent. Hmmm…

    @amk: Didn’t use a WaPost click on that, but do pull out some good quotes, if you are so inclined.

  130. 130.

    MomSense

    @satby:

    Please call a lawyer. I can’t believe the insurance company would have you in a house with a tree on top like this. Sending you so many big hugs.

  131. 131.

    Elizabelle

    @satby:

    Fuck it all. I need to move.

    Yes. You do. Unquestionably. It will be SO good for you.

    The fates are trying to tell you something.

  134. 134.

    satby

    @Elizabelle: yep. It’s the animals that have kept me here so far, finding an alternative with trashed credit and nine animals is a real challenge.
    But I’m just done.

    And now, ironically, they aren’t starting anyway because they’re waiting to hear back from the insurance to be sure they get paid.

  135. 135.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @satby: :-( On the bright side, when you get through this horrible period, you’re going to have to have smooth sailing for quite a while!!

    Hang in there. We’re pulling for you.

    Best wishes,
    Scott.

  136. 136.

    Betty Cracker

    @liberal: Again, opposition to the TPP as currently configured is baked into the platform — this isn’t a dispute on substance but rather style. What’s at issue is the wording of it. Cummings doesn’t want it to include what could be perceived as a rebuke to the sitting president, who may be wrong on this issue (I agree that he is wrong on this issue, BTW) but remains incredibly popular with Democrats. It’s not an unreasonable objection, IMO, especially if your goal is to hold the Obama coalition together.

  137. 137.

    liberal

    @Betty Cracker: what’s this “respect” bullshit? Does it involve calling Obama names? If it just says “vote it down,” I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

  138. 138.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @bystander: It’s a tough problem. I’ll have to think on it a bit. Let me get back to you…

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (“You can tell a lot about a person by the friends he keeps.”)

  139. 139.

    gex

    @liberal: so then what’s your complaint? Reportedly the position is in there. You are arguing that the wording doesn’t matter while protesting a wording that might go over better.

  142. 142.

    magurakurin

    @Applejinx: Dude, she’s not going to run on what he ran on. Come on. Vote for fucking Trump if you can’t handle it. Her proposals are reasonable and sound. There isn’t agreement on 15 because some areas could be hurt by that number. She has no problem with any municipality or state that raises it higher than 12. The Federal government can’t ban fracking even if they wanted to. Clinton supports any state that bans it and wants much stricter controls in place. TPP is about Obama and not wanting to oppose the President of the United States and the leader of the party on that. Clinton has said she is opposed to it as it is. If she becomes president, then she will be opposed…unless you just think she is an outright liar. The truth is they aren’t that far apart and Sanders is being ass pretending that their positions are so far apart. They just aren’t.

    fucking breath and chill. Or vote for Trump. Those are your choices.

  143. 143.

    liberal

    @Betty Cracker: the way the WP glosses it, it’s not merely a stylistic difference. Ellison’s would have rejected the pact outright. The one Cummings wanted, which apparently won, didn’t, and instead had the usual mealy-mouthed crap about including protections for workers and the environment.

  144. 144.

    bemused

    We are right on the edge of current severe thunderstorm northeast of us with a downpour and a little hail. I’m praying all the campers in the BWCA are safe.

  146. 146.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Gimlet: Meh. Murphy’s been in the House since January 2013. What he’s done there matters a whole heck of a lot more than whatever embellishments he did to his story.

    Politicians try to put the best spin possible on themselves, and too often stretch the truth to the breaking point. But what matters is how they vote and who they support for the leadership positions.

    Florida knows what will happen if they vote for the Teabagger, or for Grayson for that matter. Murphy has issues, but he’s the better choice.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who wonders what audience Salon is chasing with stories like these…)

  147. 147.

    BR

    @magurakurin:

    I generally agree with what you’re saying, but I don’t get this:

    The Federal government can’t ban fracking even if they wanted to.

    Why not? I mean, I know congress won’t go for it, but I don’t see any other reason.

    By the way, the people in the Sanders camp that think he’s so great on climate change need to wake up. Climate change is my biggest issue, and I see the fuss about it made by Sanders supporters trying to put daylight between him and Clinton as clueless at best and disingenuous at worst. Both of their plans are so far from what is needed it’s laughable. We’re in an 18 wheeler going downhill at 90 mph. Sanders and Clinton want to apply bicycle brakes, which I guess is better than the GOP approach of stepping on the gas, but it’s not saying much.

    Go watch climate scientist Kevin Anderson break it down:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF1zNpzf8RM

  148. 148.

    Josie

    @satby:
    I truly believe the universe is sending you a message, to get serious about looking elsewhere and getting out of that house. I went through something similar after my mother’s passing several years ago, and, although I don’t own a house anymore, I am very happy in my rented diggs and out from under all the financial stress. I am sending you positive vibes and hugs and hoping for better days for you ahead.

  149. 149.

    BR

    @magurakurin:

    I generally agree with what you’re saying, but I don’t get this:

    The Federal government can’t ban fracking even if they wanted to.

    Why not? I mean, I know congress won’t go for it, but I don’t see any other reason.

    By the way, the people in the Sanders camp that think he’s so great on climate change need to wake up. Climate change is my biggest issue, and I see the fuss about it made by Sanders supporters trying to put daylight between him and Clinton as clueless at best and disingenuous at worst. Both of their plans are so far from what is needed it’s laughable. We’re in an 18 wheeler going downhill at 90 mph. Sanders and Clinton want to apply bicycle brakes, which I guess is better than the GOP approach of stepping on the gas, but it’s not saying much.

    Go watch climate scientist Kevin Anderson on the issue.

  150. 150.

    magurakurin

    @liberal: He’s the president.
    The platform isn’t going to please everyone no matter how it is written. If the wording of the position of TPP in the platform, that really isn’t very influential at all, is the deal breaker for you…then it is. Vote Green, vote for Trump, get addicted to heroin, fuck I don’t know or even care.

    Her positions are not unreasonable at all. And she personally has said she opposes TPP. The wording in the platform won’t change her position on that. By it’s very nature not every member of the Democratic party is going to agree fully on every aspect. It’s silly to focus so much attention on it. Sanders thinks he is doing some noble fight, but the truth is not many people even know what is in the platform much less give a shit about it. They only listen to what the candidate says on the trail or in the ads.

  151. 151.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @satby: Jesus g*d. What a load of horseshit is an understatement. I hope you see a change of direction soon. if I were in your position, I’d be beyond remediation at this point.

  152. 152.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Everybody screeching about the platform committee closely followed these debates in 2012, and 2008, and 2004, and… because of course you did!

    @BR: Why not? I mean, I know congress won’t go for it,

    that’s pretty much all that matters. “Revolutions” don’t happen from the top down, much less from the platform committee (for fuck’s sake…) out

  153. 153.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @magurakurin: A platform always gets reduced to a few talking points when it’s discussed at all. It’s important as a statement of general principles, but it is always fancied-up with glorious language that isn’t a good guide to what actual legislation will be passed if they get the chance. Who’s against Freedom and Liberty and Prosperity and Opportunity and all that?

    People who are worried about the platform should spend some of that energy to get people registered to vote and to get them to commit to voting Team D. That will do more to help determine the outcome than fighting over language in the platform.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (But that’s not as interesting to talk about. ;-)

  154. 154.

    BR

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Ok, but that’s a different thing than what magurakurin what saying — “even if they wanted to” made me think that there was some constitutional or treaty-based reason that would prevent us from passing a law banning fracking. To be clear, I care not a bit about what’s in the platform, nor am I a Sanders supporter (or a Clinton supporter for that matter, though I’ll be voting for her because she is of course far better than any other option including Trump, Stein, and the libertarian kids).

  155. 155.

    Emma

    @satby: GGRRRRHHH. Assholes. I think you might have a way to make them swallow the price of repairs/your relocation costs. You need to be aggressive and don’t give an inch. If you can’t do it, find an attorney that will.

  158. 158.

    MomSense

    @BR:

    There has to be a mechanism in order to stop something. EPA issued new orders in 2015 dealing with well drilling and fracking fluid but they only took effect on public lands. So now we have to deal with all the various state regulations on well drilling and fracking and that is a much tougher challenge. There are movements of people in many states trying to deal with this. Look at homeowners in OK who are trying to work their legislature because of earthquakes. The Repubkicans there don’t give a crap about their constituents.

    And this leads to one of the big problems I have with Sanders. He says stuff like ban fracking which is complete horseshit (if he doesn’t know this he should) and his supporters think the only reason a president can’t ban fracking is obviously corruption. If they want to ban fracking they are going to have to get very busy trying to change the laws in the states.

  159. 159.

    MomSense

    @MomSense:

    Just to add to my comment, why the fuck do people think the Kochs give money to the whackaloons who are trying to destroy BLM?? Public lands have rules that protect the public and the land from oil and gas drilling.

  160. 160.

    Botsplainer, Neoliberal Corporatist Shill

    The things I learn on the net.

    Hank Paulson enthusiastically endorsed Hillary and laid a classic beat down on the cheeto-orange ball sack. Conservatives now appear to be blaming him for the 2008 meltdown that they first denied was happening, but then blamed on Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter.

  161. 161.

    Cat48

    @liberal:

    He deserves respect from his party on his way out. Of course, most white progressives have no love for Obama Bc he had to try and run divided government.
    What Cummings wants will only hurt Bernie flacks & he’s not a Dem & has done nothing for Dems but divide us and refuse to concede.

  163. 163.

    Botsplainer, Neoliberal Corporatist Shill

    @Baud:

    … and Negroes and Hispanics defaulting on the loans that Carter and Clinton ordered the banks to give…

  164. 164.

    D58826

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    like an expansion of solar/wind power thru what ever means possible.

    And as green energy grows then you can start clamping down on fracking. Right now fracking is a major source for the natural gas that is replacing coal for electrical generation. Ban fracking and what do you use in place of the natural gas? Coal?

  165. 165.

    satby

    @satby: they started. The younger guy is stomping around on the roof by himself dropping logs onto it that shake the entire house as he saws.

    Livid doesn’t even touch how furious I am, and I can’t leave because they’ve blocked the driveway.

  166. 166.

    MomSense

    @Botsplainer, Neoliberal Corporatist Shill:

    Meanwhile Tavis toured around the country doing free “wealth building” seminars sponsored by Wells fucking Fargo. They were all too happy to refinance mortgages for attendees. Those loans seemed too good to be true and if you read the fine print-they were.

  170. 170.

    Emma

    @satby: If your phone doesn’t have a good camera see if you can get someone to film this. If you try to leave and they won’t move, call the cops!

  171. 171.

    MomSense

    @D58826:

    And the people who hate TPP will want to block their ears and sing lalalalalala at this but our wind and solar technology and manufacturing stand to gain big from this trade deal. Otherwise it will be cheaper to buy from the Chinese.

  172. 172.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Cat48: and the solar industry was one of the things that was saved by the Stimulus that didn’t count because it was too small because Obama didn’t want to fight! and he’s never done anything for the environment. Just like Obamacare is nothing because it’s not Universal Health Care, or it’s not Single Payer. I’m kind of confused about which is which, but I know one is totally corrupt and one is totally awesome cause Bernie told me so.

  173. 173.

    Betty Cracker

    @liberal:

    Ellison’s would have rejected the pact outright. The one Cummings wanted, which apparently won, didn’t, and instead had the usual mealy-mouthed crap about including protections for workers and the environment.

    Where are you getting this? That description isn’t in the WaPo article I linked above. Here’s the pertinent section from WaPo:

    One clash came over Obama’s signature trade deal — which both Clinton and Sanders oppose, though the former secretary of state once called it the “gold standard” of trade agreements. The fraught question was how to weigh loyalty to the Democratic president against broad Democratic dissatisfaction with the agreement he negotiated with Japan and 10 other Pacific Rim countries.

    Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), one of the few federal lawmakers to endorse Sanders, suggested language making it the policy of the Democratic Party that the trade pact not get a vote in Congress. The move was blocked by committee members who said it was impertinent to rebuke the president in his own party’s platform.

    “I don’t want to do anything as he ends his term to undercut the president of the United States,” said Cummings, who nevertheless said he disfavors the trade deal. Cornel West, the scholar and civil rights activist appointed by Sanders, said the responsibilities of citizenship should transcend loyalty to the president.

    BOTH proposals and BOTH candidates have stated opposition to passage of the TPP as currently configured. At issue is how it’s stated in the platform, which, while important as a guideline for the party’s outlook, isn’t binding for any of the candidates.

    As for why Obama matters, he’s the current president and incredibly popular among Democrats. One of Sanders’ big mistakes was a failure to appreciate PBO’s importance to Democrats.

    ETA: Looks like you are correct on the TPP after all; just saw an article from AP that says:

    Democrats on Friday voted down an amendment to the party’s platform that would have opposed the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, avoiding an awkward scenario that would have put its statement of values at odds with President Barack Obama.

    Members of a Democratic National Convention drafting committee defeated a proposal led by Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., that would have added language rejecting the Pacific Rim trade pact, which has been opposed by presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders.

    The panel, which is developing the party’s platform ahead of next month’s Philadelphia convention, instead backed a measure that said “there are a diversity of views in the party” on the TPP and reaffirmed that Democrats contend any trade deal “must protect workers and the environment.”

    So it is a more “mealy-mouthed” response than what Ellison proposed.

  174. 174.

    Emma

    And on the bloody buggering hell front, Jonathan Hill has just resigned as senior European commissioner. He was in charge of the EU financial portfolio, one of the most important in the world.

  176. 176.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Emma: I was a bit relieved Thursday night when people were pointing out that this was a non-binding referendum, but that’s not how people seem to be reacting or planning for the future. I’m wondering what polling will look like if they start asking Leave voters if they regret their vote.

    @Betty Cracker: One of Sanders’ big mistakes was a failure to appreciate PBO’s importance to Democrats.

    and even more so (though implied in what you said) what Obama has accomplished, and why he hasn’t accomplished everything he wanted. You’d think Sanders’ own vote on Gitmo might clarify that point for him, but nobody’s drunker on the Sanders Kool-Ade than the Shoeless Fanatic himself.

  179. 179.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    Totally off-topic research question, the answer to which is evading me online. Do any of our military history types know what sort of rifle or musket would have been used by the military in the Oregon territory of the 1850s?

  181. 181.

    MomSense

    @Baud:

    No! Not Instagram! That’s my online happy place. It’s just gardens and puppies and beautiful hand knit things.

  183. 183.

    Emma

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, Hill had to resign. No way the EU would want a country that has just voted itself out of the group to be in charge of something that important. This is turning into a twenty-year-mess, with things moving on their own because from what’s coming out of the UK this morning, Johnson and Farage caught the car and now they know fvck-all what to do with it.

  184. 184.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I don’t wanna open what appears to be a contentious can of worms (I’ll join in a Bernie Stomp, but this one seems to get personal), I just got an invitation to go see Hamilton with Hillary! The Obamas tried to get me to come to dinner for like a year, but I didnt think I’d be in the neighborhood. This is probably the only way I’ll get to see what all the shouting is about. Maybe I’ll email Hill back and see where those seats re.

  185. 185.

    Corner Stone

    @Emma:

    Jonathan Hill has just resigned as senior European commissioner. He was in charge of the EU financial portfolio, one of the most important in the world.

    What would you have expected him to do?
    “The German MEP Elmar Brok, who chairs the European parliament’s committee on foreign affairs, told the Guardian the parliament would call on Juncker to strip the British commissioner, Jonathan Hill, of the financial services brief with immediate effect and turn him into a “commissioner without portfolio”.

  186. 186.

    hedgehog the occasional commenter

    @bystander: And the glibertarian dumbfucks on my FB feed who probably thought Brexit was a cereal up until Thursday. (Gotta do some herd-culling, there).

  190. 190.

    D58826

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: This has been my problem with Bernie from the beginning It’s not that I disagree with the goal it’s that his solution is politically impossible. He wants say healthcare is a human right. Fine say it. But what have you accomplished? Nothing. He also want her to commit to single payer. Why, other than like the banks, insurance companies offend his socialist world view. Hillary pushed for universal care in 1993 and it died. There was no support for single payer in 2009. The public option died and if it wasn’t for Arlin Spector going rouge Obamacare would have died.

    Free tuition is the same problem. The cost of college is a problem that needs to be fixed but I doubt that it will fly politically. This is an issue that highlights how various voting blocks in the party view an issue based on their life experience. Yes free tuition is popular among Bernie’s young supporters. But look at his rallies -mostly young and mostly white. While African Americans might like the idea in theory they are more concerned about the decaying inner city schools that their kids have to attend. They would rather see that money (federal/state/local) spent to fix up the K-12 schools that have more rats in the library than books rather than letting a bunch of upper middle class white kids go to UNC-Chapel Hill for free..

  191. 191.

    Corner Stone

    @Aimai:

    @Applejinx: fuck off. No really just fuck off. If you thought a presidential election was all about how you, personally, get everything you ever dreamed of the instant you woke from your juvenile stupor you were wrong.

    just stfu about you and your preciousssss vote.

    I didn’t think it was possible for me to agree with Aimai this hard about something. But, welp, THIS.

  192. 192.

    Josie

    @Betty Cracker:
    That is not a “mealy mouthed” statement. It is probably a more accurate description of Democratic views on TPP than Ellison’s. I would imagine there is a diversity of opinions in our party on this.

  196. 196.

    dogwood

    @MomSense:
    Besides benefits for Americans in renewable energy industries, there are benefits for American agriculture with TPP as well. You can vote against TPP in order to woo white working class voters in the upper Midwest, but it won’t change the economic situation in those states, and it won’t turn many cultural conservatives into democrats. Trump is much more adept at validating their resentments. The Trump and Sanders voters are much like those who just blew up shit in the UK. They don’t much care about policy outcomes, they simply want to vent their resentment.

  197. 197.

    Cat48

    I hope the economy doesn’t go into recession bc of Brexit. I think we have a chance to win unless the economy tanks. That’s all I can think about today.

  198. 198.

    Betty Cracker

    @Josie: It is when compared to how I characterized it before, which was a rejection of TPP. The point is, I was wrong — the statement was weaker than I thought it was after reading the WaPo description.

  199. 199.

    Corner Stone

    I, personally, would prefer the Democratic Platform not outright piss in Obama’s cereal on his way out the door. Since the platform has about the same authority in actual reality as my statement that, “Salma Hayek will be having dinner with me tonight.”
    A very even handed treatment of TPP just makes sense at this point. The time to bring it down is coming.

  200. 200.

    WaterGirl

    @Applejinx: Applejinx, I cannot figure out why you get yourself worked up like this stuff. With Trump running on the other side, the democratic platform should be pretty irrelevant at this point. No matter what, the democrats will be better than trump. Your time would be much better spent registering people to vote. Sign up as an election judge. Or sign up to be a poll watcher. Or call every single person you know and make sure they know how important it is to vote this time. Work on your Bernie contacts to make sure they aren’t going to pout or throw away their vote and help Trump get elected. My advice is to stop worrying and take some action.

    I have absolutely no idea what the Democratic platform was when Obama was elected. I was way too busy volunteering for his campaign to care about that or polls or anything else. The platform may be a nice statement of values, but it has absolutely no impact on what actions are taken, what legislation is passed, etc.

  201. 201.

    MomSense

    @dogwood:

    Plus it improves some of the problems with NAFTA but I think it is hard for Democrats to discuss this because we bump into conflicting values and issues.

  203. 203.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @D58826: They would rather see that money (federal/state/local) spent to fix up the K-12 schools that have more rats in the library than books rather than letting a bunch of upper middle class white kids go to UNC-Chapel Hill for free..

    To say nothing of pre-K education– I don’t pretend to be an expert but it seems to me that’s at least as vital an issue– and basic child care, about which HRC has (hang on to your hats!) a boring plan with all kinds of details.

    People get mad when old farts like me say that ‘free college’ is a huge part of the Sanders cult– “Oh, so you think the spoiled kids just want more free stuff?”– but I think it’s symptomatic of a naivete that’s understandable and forgivable in a twenty year old (“everyone I know agrees, it would pass easily!”), but anyone who even pretended to pay attention to the health care debate (the Stimulus debate, the Gitmo debate, the gun safety debate, financial reform, immigration, Merrick Garland…) and still shrieks that Obama/Clinton incrementalism (much less “WALL STREET SPEECHES!”) is the problem… I don’t know how you talk to people like this. So I just make fun of them.

  208. 208.

    satby

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I agree, frustration and mockery is all I have left.
    And any moron who bases their votes on any sniping I do; well they’re both too stupid to live and likely wouldn’t have voted with me in the first place.

  211. 211.

    Cat48

    I never heard any debate on TPP, just gloom & doom & hysterics. The populists all told horror stories and threatened anyone who would vote for it. It was ugly.

  212. 212.

    Corner Stone

    @Cat48:

    I never heard any debate on TPP, just gloom & doom & hysterics. The populists all told horror stories and threatened anyone who would vote for it. It was ugly.

    There’s a reason you did not hear any debate on TPP. They kept all the details under wraps and all anyone on the outside got were leaks. How is that a way to manage the message? If you have something you want to sell then sell it. If you have something you want to happen without anyone knowing anything about it so to allow widespread speculation and easy fearmongering then do it the way the Obama admin did.

  213. 213.

    D58826

    @MomSense: I guess my problem with the entire NAFTA/TPP discussion is:
    1. much of the rust belt existed long ore NAFTA so that is a red herring
    2. with or without these agreements there will be foreign trade unless ‘old little hands’ extends his fence along both coasts and the Canadian border;
    3. No matter what we negotiate there will be winners and losers in the American economy
    4. if we don’t negotiate there will be winners and losers in the American economy
    5. Unless Bernie is saying he would never negotiate a trade agreement then at some point he is going to have to give up something and that will create a loser in the American economy. (and what will Bernie do when China continues to dump US market? Call for a million person march on Beijing?)

    I’m not trying to defend either treaty it just like much of the discussion comes down to the world be great for the US if these treaties didn’t exist. I just don’t think that is true.

  216. 216.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Corner Stone: TPP at WhiteHouse.gov.

    One doesn’t negotiate treaties in public.

    The debate will be in the Congress – where it should be. Assuming, of course, that it actually gets scheduled for hearings…

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  217. 217.

    Corner Stone

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    One doesn’t negotiate treaties in public.

    The debate will be in the Congress – where it should be. Assuming, of course, that it actually gets scheduled for hearings

    You have repeatedly pushed that garbage at WH, and yet it remains not only highly factually questionable but outright false in some of its assumptions.
    And I am aware, “One does not masturbate in a public park without the risk of jail.” Thanks, though for the reminder.
    My comment was in response to why Cat48 “had never heard any debate”. In one of my previous comments on the D Platform I mentioned that the time to deal with the TPP is coming.
    Thanks again, though, for your help.

  220. 220.

    satby

    @Baud: Making rice pudding and carnitas enchiladas,old poop. After dinner we can sit outside and yell at clouds, so c’mon over.
    Open invite, everyone. And I will have wine ?
    Edited to add: I’m thinking LOTS of wine.

  223. 223.

    D58826

    @Corner Stone: I don’t know about a ‘debate’ but the articles I’ve read seem to fall into three groups
    1. it is the best of all possible worlds (written by a winner no doubt)
    2. the worst thing to have happened since the dinosaurs went extinct (written by a probably loser).
    3. ‘neutral’ papers written by economists that lose me by the second sentence.

  224. 224.

    Aleta

    @satby: geez Louise this is not right ! Hang in there please. Can you email some pix to the insur co to get their delay on the record next to the dated photos? And (even if they won’t do it) request email authorization immediately based on photos? They have to answer you or look bad, it would seem. Anyway, sorry and hope the tide turns soon.

  225. 225.

    Cat48

    @D58826:
    I think it was just foreign policy to Obama. He wanted to protect the Pacific Rim and contain China. The countries are just becoming viable trade partners and money will be made.

    @Corner Stone: I agree, but it is a negotiating tactic not to show ones cards to the world. I don’t know any other way to do it. The Congress is not trustworthy when it comes to leaks. The loudest ones demanding to see it, like Bernie,were not going to vote yes anyway.

  226. 226.

    Josie

    @satby:
    The enchiladas and rice pudding sound great and the wine put it over the top. Be there shortly. Do you have a door that is still operational?

  227. 227.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Corner Stone: she still on the Bernie train? or at least the anti-HRC train? I wandered through her twitter feed a few weeks ago and was surprised

  228. 228.

    Aleta

    @satby: I’m sending some curried tomato-rice haddock chowder I made last night. It’s even better the day after. A five piece band of restless troubadours will bring it over.

  231. 231.

    Felonius Monk

    @BR:

    I know congress won’t go for it, but I don’t see any other reason.

    Perhaps you don’t understand how our form of government works. Congress is the only branch of our government that could ban it by legislation, but as you have correctly noted they are not currently so inclined.

  232. 232.

    TopClimber

    @Cat48: The problem is fast-tracking. Once enough Dems joined the GOP in allowing this, all Congress can do is vote up or down on the whole package.

    However, if Hillary really is committed to a no vote as TPP now stands, then maybe our trade reps can renegotiate some terms–I don’t believe fast-tracking commits the President to only the current bill. Sanders and other opponents need to zero in on a FEW changes worth making and fight for these rather than tilt at another windmill.

    Some version of the TPP will pass in the next decade, because as you point out, it is central to our pivot to Asia, which Hillary strongly backs.

  234. 234.

    gogol's wife

    @debbie:

    They’re bad. Plus it scares my husband when he picks up the phone and gets Hillary’s voice. He’s going to vote for her, but doesn’t want her calling him.

    I can’t believe I missed the “O, Brother, Where Art Thou” thread last night. All the good stuff happens when I’m asleep.

  235. 235.

    debbie

    @BR:

    That’s a great point — universal pre-K and early childhood education are very important, and are neglected in favor of college.

    They’re more important. If a kid doesn’t get a good start, he/she isn’t likely to succeed in college (let alone high school). They should focus on costs control for higher education and much better vo-tech schools.

  236. 236.

    Amaranthine RBG

    @West of the Rockies (been a while):
    I am not an expert on this but this would be a good candidate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Model_1842

    It was manufactured in Springfield MA and Harper’s Ferry WV (where I read about it a couple of weeks ago.) The most noteworthy thing about it is that it was (supposedly) the first rifle manufactured with fully interchangeable parts.

    The 3rd Cavalry Regiment – the mounted rifleman – undertook a historic march from Missouri to Fort Vancouver arriving in 1849 and there are a number of books and articles about that – some of them might have useful information for you.

  237. 237.

    debbie

    @gogol’s wife:

    The good stuff usually doesn’t start until after midnight, sadly.

    @satby:

    I love rice pudding and make it all winter long when I can bear the heat of the oven. I spend most of the summer wrestling with myself about getting the stuff in the store. You’re clearly made of sterner stuff.

  238. 238.

    CaseyL

    @satby: JFC, what a clusterfuck.

    If you can, film everything they do. If the insurance company tries to claim the damage its contractors does was already there, you’ll have evidence to the contrary.

    And I second the suggestion of talking to a lawyer.

    Hang in there!

  239. 239.

    Felonius Monk

    For all of you having agita about stories coming out about the current machinations surrounding the Democratic platform — What is going right now is the preparation of an initial draft of the platform. That’s where all the hub-bub about fracking, minimum wage, TPP, etc. is coming from. THIS IS JUST THE INITIAL DRAFTING OF THE DOCUMENT.

    Once the Drafting committee has completed it’s work, the draft platform will be presented to the Full Platform Committee for consideration. It will be discussed, revised, etc. and then voted on by the Platform Committee for presentation to the Full Convention in Philadelphia.

    Stop wetting your pants about the damned platform — this process is still in its early stages.

  240. 240.

    NotMax

    @magurakurin

    Then there’s the Texas Republican party state platform, which makes Alex Jones look like Walter Cronkite and Breitbart look like the ACLU in comparison.

    It’s always worth a gander when it is thrown together, if for nothing else to measure just how far a jaw can drop.

  241. 241.

    Original Lee

    I haven’t read the comments yet (because majorly distracted with other stuff), so I apologize if this is duplicative. This was emailed to me by a friend who has long worked for a state GOP about the rules for the Republican Convention in July. While interesting, I have my doubts that they can actually get the delegates to vote the way they want, especially since they have to find somebody else to put in as a party candidate.

  243. 243.

    ruemara

    @Applejinx: You need to back away from twitter. The issues were language related to an additional support statement for $15. I have an idea, since you want to keep informed. One: get a book on Roberts Rules of Order to understand procedure. Two: STOP TAKING INFORMATION OFF TWITTER & FACEBOOK! If it doesn’t lead to a verified source with actual details, then it’s someone repeating a rumor or and an opinion and therefore not worth your time.

    FYI, here’s a clear article on what the issues were and it’s not what Twitter whiners say. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/unity-efforts-hit-snag-at-final-meeting-over-democratic-platform/2016/06/24/2919fd06-3a3d-11e6-a254-2b336e293a3c_story.html?postshare=9911466840165352&tid=ss_tw

  244. 244.

    smith

    @BR:

    That’s a great point — universal pre-K and early childhood education are very important, and are neglected in favor of college.

    Early childhood education is one of the few things known that can make a lifetime difference to children from disadvantaged backgrounds, and yet we nickel and dime it. I’ve always thought that a really good measure of how civilized a country is would be the ratio of money spent per capita on prisons to that spent on early childhood education. Any country that that sincerely cared about its citizens would spend vastly more on the latter than the former. I’m guessing the US would be way down in the pack on that one.

  245. 245.

    Elizabelle

    @satby: I shall bring some cava, for aperitif, dessert, whenever.

    Elizabelle the lazy ass

    PS: overnight thread on O Brother Where Art Thou? Wow. (leaves to search for it) RIP Ralph Stanley (which I’d guess was the impetus) …

  246. 246.

    NotMax

    @Elizabelle

    Most people seem unaware that O Brother Where Art Thou derives from references within the classic 1941 comedy Sullivan’s Travels.

  248. 248.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @smith: Doesn’t benefit the 1% in an obvious way, doesn’t happen.

    The wealth of the nation is not their concern. How many hookers can they hire and how much blow they can snort is.

  250. 250.

    satby

    @debbie: @CaseyL: @Elizabelle: a real party.

    They are taking all the wood including some small logs I asked them to leave because they didn’t cut them, I was told they were taking it all and they “weren’t there to listen to my mouth”.

    I just want to note that this is proof positive gun control works, because at that point I was very close to murder.

  253. 253.

    Felonius Monk

    @Applejinx: I presume (because of all your pissin’ and moanin’) that you took the opportunity to express your thoughts to the platform committee through the mechanism they made available.

    But then only about 1000 people were so inclined — not much interest, I guess. Or else it’s just easier to bitch about it.

  254. 254.

    Corner Stone

    @Felonius Monk: That avenue has a distinct lack of ponies. Not mentioned even one time! Humph!
    And judging by the multiple 3,000 word paeans to drama posted here I doubt there was time to submit anything. As the site states, “Democrats value substance!”.

  255. 255.

    debbie

    @satby:

    Dicks! First you call their boss, then the BBB, then the State AG/Consumer Affairs. At least they’re gone.

  256. 256.

    Elizabelle

    @satby: Not there to listen to your mouth? Did you get that on film too?

    @NotMax: Knew that was where the title came from, but confess I have never seen Sullivan’s Travels all the way through. (Miss TCM now that I am cable-less.) Shall put that on the one-year bucket list (plus catching up on all the other fine Coen Brothers movies; they have an incredible body of work).

    Peeps: here’s the link to the overnight O Brother thread — thank you, TaMara — with an amazing rendition of Man of Constant Sorrow by the late and much mourned Ralph Stanley.

    Damn! We’re in a Tight Spot! (re Stanley/O Brother)

  257. 257.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @debbie: @satby: weren’t they sent by the insurance company? I’d call them and let them call the boss, who was probably the one who said it, then their licensing authority (arborists have to be licensed, I think?)

  258. 258.

    Mnemosyne

    @liberal:

    why does Obama matter? He’s not running for president, _and_ he’s dead wrong on TPP.

    In 2000, did you think it didn’t matter that Clinton didn’t campaign for Gore?

    Between Stein’s warmed-over Republicrats bullshit and now this insistence that we don’t need the popular Democratic president campaign for his successor, it seems like some people are bound and determined to repeat 2000. Christ help us.

  259. 259.

    smith

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    The wealth of the nation is not their concern. How many hookers can they hire and how much blow they can snort is.

    Also who gets employed. Early childhood education is mostly provided by women; prison staffs are mostly male, and, I believe, predominantly white, at least in many areas of the country. The prison-industrial complex is a twofer on the jobs front, as well, as it removes so many men of color from the employment market.

  260. 260.

    Mnemosyne

    @Elizabelle:

    Sullivan’s Travels is pretty good, but if you want to see a Preston Sturges movie that will knock your socks off, I always recommend The Miracle of Morgan’s Creek. It starts with a nice small-town girl getting married and impregnated by a soldier whose name she doesn’t remember, and just gets wilder from there. You won’t believe the Production Code let it through — in fact, critics at the time even said so.

  261. 261.

    Elizabelle

    @smith:

    The prison-industrial complex is a twofer on the jobs front, as well, as it removes so many men of color from the employment market.

    I never thought about that. Thank you.

  264. 264.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: OMG you’re funny! These were not arborists – who do have to be certified by the arboriculture society – these were goofs with chain saws that the insurer hired to tear down the house get the tree off the house for the lowest possible price. Hence the increased house damage and asshole behavior.

  265. 265.

    satby

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): yep. But Quicken Loans now has the story plus some pictures on their FB page, which I then shared on mine for a wider audience. The customer relationship drones who monitor that and Twitter are involved now too. Bad publicity is powerful.
    Hmm, maybe I should link to this thread.

    I am Irish, we hold grudges for 1000 years.

  266. 266.

    Felonius Monk

    @satby: Taking all our wood is stealing unless you had agreed to it beforehand. They either pay you for it or file a criminal complaint.

  267. 267.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @satby: I’m from moderate Appalachian and Irish roots – we only hold grudges for 800 years. I need to look at those FB pages – can you link to Quicken’s? Hang tough.

  268. 268.

    Original Lee

    @satby: So sorry to hear things are not going smoothly. We have expectations, often extremely reasonable and patient expectations, and sometimes the bastards love to crush them. My parents had a house fire a while back, and like Shlemazel Kahn, started by a workman who didn’t realize it. In my parents’ case, it was the furnace maintenance guy. Fortunately for my parents, the fire shorted out the fuse box , which started the doorbell ringing and allowed them to figure out what was going on in time to get out before being overcome by smoke and fumes. Everything went pretty well – the fire was in early November and the insurance company promised to have them back in the house by Christmas – except one of the workmen apparently decided he liked my dad’s Craftsman tool set and (we think) smuggled a few tools out every day. And we found out later that they only replaced the beams that were more than 50% damaged.

    I think the best course if you don’t get good response by Monday is to work your way up the ladder at the insurance company, your mortgage lender, the Better Business Bureau, and the state insurance regulator. Not much fun until you get near the top at the state insurance regulator and the bank.

  269. 269.

    Ruckus

    @D58826:
    Sometimes a shit sandwich is better than no sandwich at all.
    No trade deal is going to be totally one sided unless one country holds all the cards. And in international trade any more, no one country does. So a good trade deal is one where you get as much as you can and the other guys do the same. NAFTA wasn’t like that, the TPP may be. So the next question is, “Do we need trade agreements?” And the answer is yes we do, they are agreements that we both act in a reasonable and agreed upon manner, how payments are made, what is required by both sides.
    So the next question is, “Is TPP a good deal?” Well I’m not sure, I haven’t read it. But I will say that some of the dealings around it made me very suspicious. I trust the president quite a bit but while Blind Faith was a great band, maybe not so much a great political process.

  270. 270.

    Amaranthine RBG

    @Aimai: So you’re thinking that the best way to change this person’s mind is to tell them to fuck of repeatedly?

    How’s that working for you?

    Not to mention if there just happens to be someone reading this who is amenable to both views but undecided.

  271. 271.

    Ruckus

    @smith:

    I’m guessing the US would be way down in the pack on that one.

    Haven’t looked for stats but as we jail a large portion of our citizens, compared to other countries and we short change education of all levels but especially pre K, I’d say way down in the pack may be an understatement. Most likely bottom of the barrel.

  273. 273.

    MomSense

    @satby:

    Tweet to them. I tweeted a photo of some mutant M&Ms and within about 33 seconds I had apologies and offers for free candy.

  274. 274.

    Applejinx

    @Amaranthine RBG: Settle down, it’s just balloon juice.

    _I_ am going to vote for Hillary no matter how much I hate her people in the field and no matter how much I mistrust what she’s up to.

    Ain’t my fault if lots and lots of other people are less bitter, cynical, and used to abuse and being shit on, than me. Good fucking luck getting their votes, is all I can say. I’m down with ‘not Trump’ and ‘only one party even capable of doing anything, for good or ill’.

    That’s what I’m voting for, and part of it is very obviously evil. St. Peter will just have to take me as he finds me, I guess.

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