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You are here: Home / Politics / Trumpery / Hail to the Hairpiece / Open Thread: Donald Trump, Still NeoNazi-Friendly

Open Thread: Donald Trump, Still NeoNazi-Friendly

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Short bursts, because that’s as close as a sane person wants to get. More serious arguments later in this thread…


… “Donald Trump’s use of a blatantly anti-Semitic image from racist websites to promote his campaign would be disturbing enough, but the fact that it’s a part of a pattern should give voters major cause for concern,” said Sarah Bard, Clinton’s director of Jewish outreach, in a statement. “Now, not only won’t he apologize for it, he’s peddling lies and blaming others.”…

Reader Interactions

168Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    Trump has a plan to bring Jews and Muslims together. You losers just don’t understand the long game.

  2. 2.

    The Dangerman

    Because, in context of the entire graphic, a sheriff’s badge makes SO much sense.

  3. 3.

    trollhattan

    Am waiting for any of this to bleed through the blood-brain barrier of the Trumpsters I know. Waiting, waiting, waiting….

    “I just checked the internet: Hillary confirmed as still history’s worst monster. MUST CREDIT DRUDGE”

  4. 4.

    bago

    He got it from 8chan, which is where you go if you think 4chan isn’t racist/sexist enough.

  6. 6.

    MattF

    @bago: Trump regards racist sites as a useful resource, and then appears to be offended and baffled when someone objects.

  7. 7.

    Sloegin

    You thought it was Mos Eisley Obi-Wan was referencing in Star Wars, but he was actually talking about /pol/ .

  8. 8.

    Suzanne

    I am amused by Paul Waldman, asking when will Republicans say that they won’t participate in this? Um, dude, it is very clear that the answer is NEVER. They will participate in all manner of exclusion and cruelty and hatred as long as it’s done by someone in their tribe. There is no limit. Best to bail out now.

  9. 9.

    Mnemosyne

    @Baud:

    At this point, Trump will go down in history as the greatest uniter in the history of America, because Americans will unite in their hatred and disdain of him.

  10. 10.

    dedc79

    My family’s last name is pretty obviously jewish in origin. My dad is a lawyer and back in the 80’s his firm represented trump in a dispute (surprise, surprise, trump refused to pay the bill). The one and only time he met Trump, Trump’s assistant introduced him, Trump repeated my dad’s last name and said “Oh, good, a jew attorney.”

    As for this latest incident, I’m surprised more people aren’t pointing out that even his defense on twitter (blaming the “dishonest media”) is another wink at the alt-right.

  11. 11.

    dmsilev

    @Mnemosyne: We can hope, but he’s polling disturbingly well. Actually, anything over about one or two percent would be disturbing.

  12. 12.

    Michael Bersin

    All sharp objects, sporting firearms, distilled spirits, and Schedule II, III, and IV drugs have been removed from the homes of Jeb!’s big dollar donors this weekend.

  13. 13.

    FlyingToaster

    @Baud: Oh, sure we do. Though generally, “sending them fleeing in all directions” is not confused with “bringing them together”.

    I’m making my prediction here for the national vote:

    Clinton 48%
    Trump 35%
    Johnson 10%
    Stein 7%

    And Trump will blame it on the RNC.

  14. 14.

    Mnemosyne

    @dmsilev:

    White men still like Trump. Fortunately for the rest of us, the demographics of the country have changed enough that presidential candidates need more than white men to win an election.

    I honestly think that once the Republican convention happens and Donald is officially the nominee, his numbers are going to plunge. I think a lot of Republicans are still in denial that he’s the real nominee and think that something is going to swoop in at the last second and save them all that embarrassment.

  15. 15.

    dedc79

    @dmsilev: I had hoped the floor would be no higher than 30% (which is still disturbingly high), but it’s looking more like 38-40%

  16. 16.

    Mnemosyne

    @FlyingToaster:

    I am happy to encourage any Republicans who can’t bring themselves to vote for Hillary to throw their vote away on a third party instead and vote for Johnson. At least Johnson has acknowledged that, yes, Hillary is totally qualified to be president, and is much more qualified than Trump.

  17. 17.

    JPL

    Yesterday I heard the blond defender of Trump explain that it was sheriff symbol, because everyone knows the star of David has two triangles. Since it was the end of the segment, her statement went unchallenged.

  19. 19.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    So the new word among the RWNJ’s about Hillary’s outreach to Latinos is, get ready….HISPANDERING! Talking about showing your ass!

  20. 20.

    sacrablue

    Can we please stop using the term “alt-right”? That is just the sanitized bullshit term for racist, anti-Semitic white supremacy.

  21. 21.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Suzanne: It’s where their party has been going for the last 50 years. It’s what they are. The Party of Jefferson Davis.

  23. 23.

    gogol's wife

    The whole thing is nauseating. I can’t believe he’s about to be nominated by a major party.

  25. 25.

    debbie

    @JPL:

    If you Google images of a sheriff badge, there are a couple with 6 points. But still, what does a sheriff have to do with his message of a corrupt Hillary? It is nonsensical at best.

    (Still laughing at the thought of 6 million Jewish sheriffs.)

  28. 28.

    FlyingToaster

    @Mnemosyne: I’m not sure it’s throwing their vote away; if the party is going down, this is the first notice. Remember the Whigs? Exactly.

    I’d vastly prefer it if it came out Johnson 35% Trump 10%. But I don’t think the GOP has deteriorated that far. Yet.

  34. 34.

    ThresherK

    So the NBC Macy’s Fireworks is on. We’ve been traveling and haven’t been able to see any of them live.

    And this opens with a woman singing “What the world Needs now (is love)” by Bacharach and David (I guess).

    What is this?

    (ETA and they’re saying it’s a benefit single re Orlando victims. No. What the world needs now is Americans not being able to buy mass killing machines.)

  35. 35.

    Poopyman

    @gogol’s wife:

    I can’t believe he’s about to be nominated by a major party.

    I still think the odds do not favor Mr. Trump coming out of the convention as the nominee, although I will admit that time’s running out. I expected more than hand-wringing at this point, but maybe the deals are being made in total secrecy. Unusual for the GOP, but this is an unusual year.

  37. 37.

    The Dangerman

    @FlyingToaster:

    …Johnson 35% Trump 10%. But I don’t think the GOP has deteriorated that far.

    Sadly, I think Trump’s floor is 40 because of the USSC. I don’t think there’s a thing Trump could do short of “live boy, dead girl” territory to get in below 40. Actually, even with a LBDG, I still think 40 is the floor.

  38. 38.

    Trentrunner

    Our vigilance and hard work is called for in any presidential campaign, but damn…

    …Trump as a national election campaigner is just shit. To wit, he’s blown these usual (media-enabled) GOPer opportunities:

    – Orlando
    – Brexit
    – Turkey’s terrorist attack
    – Bill/Loretta’s tarmac adventure
    – Benghazi Report

    Any halfway competent GOP presidential campaign could make some pretty decent hay out of these events.

    But damn if he doesn’t just keep stepping on the rake and putting a megaphone up to his own farts.

  39. 39.

    JPL

    @debbie: The gal explained that it was two triangles, one which was inverted, unlike his tweet. I’m not sure what tweet she saw, but it sure wasn’t the one he sent out, which was clearly the Star of David.

  40. 40.

    trollhattan

    @Trentrunner:
    He’s gonna lose, HARD. While I acknowledge non-zero odds of his becoming #45 I have faith in his utter lack of self-discipline and the voting public’s inability to sleep 24/7 until November that things are going to turn out in our and the nation’s favor. This is my message to the nation on its 240th birthday.

  42. 42.

    The Dangerman

    @Trentrunner:

    Bill/Loretta’s tarmac adventure

    This is one I really don’t get; good grief, pick up a phone if you want to chit chat. Unless you wanted to create cover for the AG to recuse herself, for reasons unknown, this was insane.

    ETA: I may need new glasses; I read that as tantric adventure.

  43. 43.

    JMG

    Trump will get close to what Romney got. White America is pathological America. I say that as a white male of some year’s standing.

  45. 45.

    trollhattan

    @JPL:
    Did she mention the hypotenuse? Because I’d have totally bought it if she’d used geometry. “You see, Mister Trump chose an overlapped set of equilateral triangles to represent his equal support of every type of American voter. No Mexicans, naturally, but Mister Trump embraces ALL Americans. Also any Miss Universe pageant contestants who wish to defect.”

  46. 46.

    Amaranthine RBG

    Assignment for someone with more time than me:

    I poke around on a number of hunting/shooting sites and (surprise!) there are a number of Trump supporters. The “its just a sheriff’s star” defense started appearing everywhere on those sites yesterday. I bet with a little digging somebody could find that this defense was also created on 8chan or some other disgusting site and made its way to those other sites.

  47. 47.

    cmorenc

    @dmsilev:

    @Mnemosyne: We can hope, but he’s polling disturbingly well. Actually, anything over about one or two percent would be disturbing.

    While the odds of a Clinton win in November look increasingly strong, nevertheless it’s also true that the final popular vote victory margin won’t be anywhere near as overwhelming as it ought to be – probably in the 5 to 7 point range instead of the 20 to 30 point margin it would be if we had a more reassuring proportion of sane, responsible, informed voters than we do in this country.

  51. 51.

    Hungry Joe

    Trump will still get between 5% and 10% of both the Jewish and African-American vote because a) some people are just contrarian cranks, and b) filling-out-the-ballot mishaps.

    What I can’t grasp is polling that shows around 25% of Hispanics backing him. I’m hoping that figure includes long-assimilated folks whose only trace of their heritage is a Hispanic-sounding surname, and is thus skewed/misleading.

    Thinking of changing my nym to (((Hungry Joe))) for the duration of the campaign. Too much?

  53. 53.

    Anne Laurie

    @Major Major Major Major:

    The vast majority of my friends seem unconcerned with Trump’s displays of anti-Semitism.

    Count your blessings. There’s at least a few BernieBros running around the twitters mansplaining that Hillary is the real anti-Semite, because Zionists. One jeenyus told a Jewish analyst that you could tell HRC hated the Jews because she chose Barney Frank as her surrogate.

    What’s that hipster catchphrase about crossing the streams…. ?

  56. 56.

    JPL

    You can listen to the Boston Pops here link
    They are so good..

    @trollhattan: haha What a silly question.. the inverted triangles was a stretch for this person, plus they were not inverted triangles. They were just a simple sheriff badge.

  58. 58.

    Poopyman

    Dammit, after a four day weekend I have to go to work tomorrow.

    Shit. Just sayin’.

  60. 60.

    The Dangerman

    @Eric U.:

    I’m afraid it may be 45 percent or higher.

    Yeah, I could see him breaking 45 if the alternative parties crater (I could see Johnson doing “ok” by Libertarian standards, but what the hell do I know; I would have said there was zero chance of a Trump presidency several months ago).

    I was just calling his floor. He could shit himself in the debates and wipe with a flag and he’s getting 40.

  62. 62.

    BC in Illinois

    I’m enjoying the best of American culture myself. Sitting on the hill in front of the St Louis Art Museum, George Clinton and P-Funk on stage, fireworks to follow. Happy Independence Day!

  64. 64.

    Baud

    Netanyahu put all his eggs in the GOP basket. Now they nominate an anti-Semite for president. Interesting.

  65. 65.

    The Dangerman

    @trollhattan:

    Do you see that having legs…

    No, in the big picture, it’s much ado over not very much, but why shoot yourself in the foot and lose even a single news cycle?

  68. 68.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Adam L Silverman: My Jewish friends are troubled, obviously, but also not vocally so. They’re much more vocal about anti-Islamic stuff (and the Labour supporters are mum on Corbyn).

    ETA: @schrodinger’s cat: The only ones who are particularly vocal about it are East Asian, interestingly.

    I should add that easily half my friends are gay, if that counts as a minority.

  70. 70.

    Baud

    @The Dangerman: Why did Obama wear a tan suit when he has so many good blue ones? You’ll drive yourself crazy trying to comply with the media’s rules.

  76. 76.

    The Dangerman

    @Baud:

    ….to comply with the media’s rules.

    The media has no rules other than trying to make this a horse race; if the horse goes to the glue factory too soon, it’s bad for the bottom line. So, why give the media even a little bit for them to harp on (although, even without the meeting, they’d find something to keep that nag in the race).

  77. 77.

    schrodinger's cat

    Caught the last half hour of the Snooze Hour. John Yang did a far better job than Whory Woodruff. Politics Monday was much less of a giggle fest and Stu Rothenberg, called out Trump and his antisemitism and was dismissive about the whole Clinton-Lynch controversy. Is our MSM learning?

  82. 82.

    Poopyman

    @Major Major Major Major: It may be that people just dismiss what he says out of hand, since he’ll obviously (to them) lose big. I (we) think that it’s a big mistake to grant him legitimacy, but some folks just don’t care.

  83. 83.

    Oldgold

    It is interesting to consider what Trump will do if late in October he trails HC by double digits.

    I think he finds a way to quit.

  87. 87.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Poopyman: I think for a lot of my generation 1) Jews have become white, 2) Israel has always been secure, and 3) Israel has become conflated with Likud. So anti-Semitism seems like a quaint concept or even as irrelevant as anti-white racism, and Israel is now and has always been an evil, warmongering apartheid colonialist superpower.

  90. 90.

    John Weiss

    Doesn’t matter whether the emperor has clothes or not. What matters is the VOTE! You-all git out there and get busy!

    y

  93. 93.

    Barbara

    @sacrablue: A federal judge hearing an asylum case insisted that all parties use the full term “female genital mutilation” (the subject of the claim for asylum) in all pleadings and arguments instead of the sanitized FGM. You can easily lose the effect of what should be a shocking development — overt racism in the appeals of a presidential candidate — by burying it in shorthand.

  98. 98.

    rikyrah

    @Hungry Joe:

    What I can’t grasp is polling that shows around 25% of Hispanics backing him. I’m hoping that figure includes long-assimilated folks whose only trace of their heritage is a Hispanic-sounding surname, and is thus skewed/misleading.

    I don’t believe that for one moment.

    The man has an approval rating of low teens with Latinos.
    No way his numbers are near what Willard got – 27%

    I simply don’t believe it.

    Makes no common sense.

  99. 99.

    The Dangerman

    @Baud:

    ….avoidable only in hindsight.

    Not if they, indeed, asked for no cameras; they had the foresight to at least have an inkling there was going to be a problem. Bottom line, unless “tantric adventures” were involved, nothing gained by not picking up the phone.

  100. 100.

    nutella

    @Baud:

    Netanyahu put all his eggs in the GOP basket. Now they nominate an anti-Semite for president.

    Netanyahu doesn’t give a shit about anti-semitism in the US as long as the winners keep sending him money and doing everything he demands, as every administration has been doing for years.

  105. 105.

    JPL

    I’m streaming the Pops, and although Nick Jonas is okay, this is my favorite version of Desperado.. link In America is one of my all time favorite movies.

  108. 108.

    Peale

    so what’s the slam against Hillary then if that’s a sheriff’s star? I thought the corrupt sheriff was worshipped by that side as the only constitutional authority in the country? Are they saying she’s an oathkeeper-tenther?

  109. 109.

    CaseyL

    @Major Major Major Major: Many progressives hate Israel, and being anti-Zionists have made Anti-Semitism acceptable in some progressive circles.

    ETA: Speaking as someone who is Jewish, liberal, and hates Netanyahu a whole lot.

  114. 114.

    delk

    Out of the mouths of kids:

    My house guest went for a walk around Millennium Park earlier and saw a mother trying to take a picture of her two kids in front of the massive American Flag hanging from the Wrigley Building.

    He told the mom that he would take a picture for her so that all three of them would be in it. As he was focusing, the little boy ( around 7-8 years old ) told my friend, “Don’t get Trump in it”.

    The Trump Building is just west of the Wrigley.

  116. 116.

    ThresherK

    @The Lodger: Doesn’t work: Just brings to mind people who nag others about uncorrected bad autocorrection, bad grammar, and unclosed italics.

  117. 117.

    Miss Bianca

    Well, rain coming down on the mountain *and* over the lake, with obscuring clouds hanging over the area where the fireworks are supposed to be. A neighbor was on board to come over and watch fireworks on the deck and *bring beer*, that most quintessentially American beverage (well, except for cider, maybe), but now I’m not so certain that the fireworks will happen. oh, well…still got salted caramel pretzel frozen custard, yum!

    ETA: might be clearing up…can almost see the lake!

  119. 119.

    Feebog

    @Baud:

    Why did Obama wear a tan suit when he has so many good blue ones? You’ll drive yourself crazy trying to comply with the media’s rules.

    The media called it “taupe” Looked tan to me. I don’t get it. I have a suit almost identical in color and I wear it frequently, especially in the summer. Plus, he looked good in it. When you have nothing else to criticize, I guess what POTUS is wearing is what you have left.

  122. 122.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Baud: It’s part of the “don’t give a fuck” B Barry Bamz. He’s telling the vermin of The Village to shove it.

  123. 123.

    NonyNony

    @Baud:

    Why did Obama wear a tan suit when he has so many good blue ones?

    He’s trolling the media – seeing how stupid they can get here in his last few months in office.

    They took the bait, as I’m pretty sure he expected them to.

  124. 124.

    Roger Moore

    @nutella:

    Netanyahu doesn’t give a shit about anti-semitism in the US as long as the winners keep sending him money and doing everything he demands, as every administration has been doing for years.

    We’ve kept throwing him money, but all his tantrums were not enough to stop Obama from making the Iran deal.

  125. 125.

    gogol's wife

    I wish the whole Fourth of July weekend could be destroyed, demolished, burned to a crisp, and buried under a rock at the bottom of the sea.

    Four straight nights of explosions. I HATE IT

  126. 126.

    Keith P.

    Watching “Brothers Grimsby” again. Jeez, that elephant scene. Wow. Not for those who do not like Cohen (or gratuitous dong shots)

  127. 127.

    Major Major Major Major

    @CaseyL: this is true. It’s actually to my knowledge a holdover from when the American left split from the European hard left. America moderated both the leftism and the anti-Zionism (against Israel as a state) into mere anti-Israelism (against whatever it is Israel happens to be doing this morning)

  128. 128.

    nutella

    General question I’ve been wondering about:

    Where DO people get news today?

    We know TV and newspapers have shrunk drastically so only a minority consume them.

    People like us, internet political junkies of both right and left, are undoubtedly few in number.

    So where does the average person find out basic news like who won an election?

    Facebook?
    Reddit?
    Twitter?

    And surely there are lots of people without internet access, so billboards? Signs from heaven? What?

    ETA last sentence

  129. 129.

    Miss Bianca

    @Baud: Many, many mountains, but only one (quite small) lake. Yes, you should be jealous, if I say so myself.

    @JPL: salted caramel pretzel frozen custard? I found it at the City Market in Canon City – Dreyer’s. It’s so sinfully good, I have to pray I’ll have enough restraint not to go face down in it.

  133. 133.

    LAO

    Anyone watching the NYC fireworks? It’s crazy, I can see them from my apartment.

  135. 135.

    Anne Laurie

    @JPL:

    To [Netanyahu] that doesn’t seem to be a concern. It’s all about ridding the world of Iran.

    If the Trumpkins take over the US government, there will definitely be an upswing in American Jews making aliyah. Probably quite a few converts, come to that.

  137. 137.

    JPL

    My mutt is at the point of saying, wake me up when tomorrow comes. He’s had it with all this celebration crap, and doesn’t really care that it’s Independence Day.

  138. 138.

    5x5

    @Peale:

    The inverted red triangle was for political prisoners – liberals, social democrats, socialists, and communists. The 2nd red triangle was for traitors.

  139. 139.

    hilts

    Donald Trump is a goat fucker, rat fucker, and raving ignoramus in addition to being a racist, sexist, and anti-semite. If he wins, it will be time to start praying for that killer asteroid to crash into the Earth..

  140. 140.

    Villago Delenda Est

    OT, but why the hell is it that every time I reload BJ the format changes to something else? WTF is the problem here? Win10 running Firefox.

  141. 141.

    Schlemazel Khan

    The moron cliamed it was a sheriffs star. That reminded me, back in the 70s National Lampoon magazine ran a story “Children’s letters to Himmler”. There were several (really really awful) good ones. One of the good ones was:
    Dear Reichsmarschall,

    Thanks for the cool star. Now when we play cowboys and indians I always get to be the sheriff!

  142. 142.

    Anne Laurie

    @nutella:

    So where does the average person find out basic news like who won an election?

    Last much-mentioned poll I remember: Facebook, Twitter, Fox, and late-night comedy shows.

    IIRC, people who watched Comedy Central were better-informed than those who watched Fox “news” or CNN.

  146. 146.

    catclub

    @Baud: That is VERY interesting.
    Someone should ask Netanyahu how he feels about Trump.

    Another interesting thing is how quiet Rand Paul has been the last 6 months or so.

  147. 147.

    Schlemazel Khan

    @catclub:
    Those are his people supporting Drumpf. Little Ayn will keep his mouth shut until after the election & then try to convince those people he is Drumpf but with a more electable personality.

  149. 149.

    RandomMonster

    It’s almost like a guy can’t scour neo-nazi websites and post racist imagery without everybody here getting all PC about it.

  150. 150.

    Felonius Monk

    @Baud:

    Then he can be pantless like me!

    Sorry, Baud. Even Shadow Presidents must have a Shadow Panel.

  151. 151.

    eemom

    @CaseyL:

    Many progressives hate Israel, and being anti-Zionists have made Anti-Semitism acceptable in some progressive circles.

    ETA: Speaking as someone who is Jewish, liberal, and hates Netanyahu a whole lot.

    Thank you. THIS, all of it, except that I’m not Jewish. There have been many, many example of this on this dear blog of ours; the most recent in particularly grotesque display on yesterday’s RIP thread for Elie Wiesel.

  152. 152.

    Felonius Monk

    @LAO: We never miss the NYC (Macy’s) fireworks. Spectacular show tonite.
    All seen in the comfort of our upstate living room on the big screen. :-)

  153. 153.

    burnspbesq

    @Feebog:

    Back before air conditioning became common in DC, the summer uniform was Haspel wash and wear suits: Tan, navy, or olive poplin, blue seersucker, or blue pincord. The only place you couldn’t wear them was before the D.C. Circuit.

    I’m old enough to have a couple of them.

  154. 154.

    Jay

    @gogol’s wife: Trade ya – This is 10th here in “Put on a show to rival most public displays” panhandle of Nebraska. From at least 3 neighbors within 3 blocks.

  155. 155.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Jay: part of my family is from Nebraska and i would always go there for a week leading up to the 4th. The big big show was always at the “neighbor”‘s place (ten miles or so) because their farm had tin roofs.

  157. 157.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    @dmsilev: The voters are slowly starting to drain away. Prof Wang started the meta-margin at +3.5% for Clinton, now its at +3.8%. The closer we get to November and the more it becomes obvious that Il Douche is never going to pivot, the more I believe you see hopeful Republicans start to look for the electoral lifeboats. I suspect the final plunge won’t kick in until after the third debate, when its obvious to everyone the crazy train is barreling into the general at full speed.

  158. 158.

    danielx

    At what point do more Republicans say, I simply cannot be a part of this?

    That would be fucking never. Any Republican who hasn’t publicly disassociated him- or herself from the beast by now isn’t going to do so.

  162. 162.

    pseudonymous in nc

    The Tr*mp campaign is “Why Do These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My Cock?” except for antisemites.

  164. 164.

    pseudonymous in nc

    And the thing to understand about /pol/ and Milo Andreas Wagner and all of that horrorshow is that edgelord/shitlord culture is built upon “everything is trolling” and working with the worst shit is what gives them their shallow sense of outrage-power.

    If they were in Syria they would have been blowing up Palmyra’s temples and smashing its antiquities and slaughtering its museum directors in the ampitheatre.

    2016: Everything Is Deadly Trolling Now

  165. 165.

    Tom Levenson

    @efgoldman: I watched from the Boston side betw. the BU bridge and the Maas. Ave. one. A great spot, actually, and a walk from my home.

    My office overlooks a courtyard, so no river/fireworks view for me. I have often viewed the display from in front of my building, but the new spot is actually a better angle and much less hassle to get into and (especially) out of.

  166. 166.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Anne Laurie:
    For a man to convert to Judaism he must be circumcised, even if he was already circumcised at birth. Good luck getting a lot of conversions.

    The Israeli rabbis who approve immigration are ultra-orthodox and hate converts, as well. Your conversion has to cross every t, dot every i, and cut every foreskin if you want Israeli citizenship.

  167. 167.

    thalarctosMaritimus

    @Barbara: Do you have a reference for that case, which I would love to read up on?

    My google-fu has, alas, proven inadequate.

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